I just saw your site for the first time today and it is terrific!!!Thanks for your info & Insight!

Tom Creevy
ND'69
Tom Creevy | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 3:25 pm | #

Here is the thing about Hass vs. Samardzija: Based on averages, Samardzija would have to play 2 or 3 extra games to equal Hass in total catches and receiving yards for the season, whereas Hass would have to play an extra 17 games to equal Samardzija's TD total. Bottom line: total catches and yards are a slight advantage to Hass, but Samardzija is in the ballpark. But there is no comparison whatsoever for TDs. I'll take TDs over yards anyday.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 3:30 pm | #

off-topic: I was going to nominate BGS for best sports blog, but somebody already beat me to it:

http://weblogawards.org/2005/11/ ...sports_blog.php
dvm | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 3:43 pm | #

i think jeff has a good chance to win the award due to the fact that he has to be one of the most consistent receiver's in the country. he basically came out of nowhere to lead the nation (to date) in td catches. the only concern i have is that he doesn't have the stats (i.e # of catches,yards)that the others have. on the flip side if jarrett has a good game he might have a shot too since he was high on the watch list since the beginning of the season.

i'm not usually a big fan of showboating but jeff's taunt at the end of his 1st td was amusing. not sure if coach weis thought the same but good to see that the attitude is back.
notre damian | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 3:51 pm | #

Does anybody have images or video of Jeff's taunt? I missed the beginning of the game but keep hearing about it.
dvm | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 4:31 pm | #

Thanks Tom and dvm. Appreciate the kind words and support.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 5:00 pm | #

He was motioning the 2 DBs to catch up with him with his hand. At first, I thought he was thinking about stiff arming them like he did in another game that cost him a TD.
Josh | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 5:02 pm | #

Also, not sure who this enefits, but Samardzija is playing on a team with another 1000 yard receiver in Stovall. The next best receiver for OSU has 400 yards. (For this matter, our 3rd receive has 514 yards in Fasano. And our 4th, Darius, is closing in with 314). I guess this can be used as an argument either way. Yes its harder for Haas to keep making plays since he is the only weapon and likely gets keyed on. But its also impressive to put up Sharks numbers with so many other options.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 5:06 pm | #

Past 3 Biletnikoff Award Winners:

Braylon Edwards (2004) - 97 catches, 1330 yards, 13.7 ypc, 15 tds

Larry Fitzgerald (2003) - 92 catches, 1672 yards, 18.2 ypc, 22 tds

Charles Rogers (2002) - 68 catches, 1351 yards, 19.9 ypc, 13 tds

Look at those stats. They all have over 12 tds. Both Shark and Jarrett have over 12. Hass has 6. 6. Thats less than half of the next lowest chap on this list, Rogers. I don't think Hass has much of a shot now that I think about it.

So its down to Shark and Jarrett. Jarrett has sophmore status and the fact that he doesn't play for ND working against him. Unless Jarrett has a huge game (150 yard, 2 td at least), I think Shark's got the edge on this one.
tedwick | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 5:07 pm | #

I can't believe the taunt isn't being very bigger play than it is. This is a very serious issue. I cannot BELIEVE anyone would think that this was "funny" or that the "swagger is back" or some other nonsense. Let your play and scoreboard be your mouthpiece.

Everyone got pissed and Reggie Bush for his thing at the stadium...and he rightly apologized. It's time for the same thing to happen when its one of our guys. Coach Weis should be asked if he tolerates that kind of behavior and if he thinks that Jeff should be benched for all or part of the Fiesta bowl.
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 6:40 pm | #

Anonymous said exactly what I was thinking. Who is the second-leading receiver on Oregon State? Who cares? His receiving stats are comparable to Darius Walker. Samardzija is competing for grabs with another 1000+ yard receiver whose statistics are not far off of the finalists for this award. His stats would be even more outstanding if he was on a team with only one good WR.
Mike Steedle | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 6:41 pm | #

Living up here, I've had to watch a few OR State games. I don't think you can underestimate what it's like for Hass. He faces triple coverage on most passing downs and double coverage on running downs. He also doesn't have the advantage of having a Heisman Trophy candidate throwing to him either. Top that off with the fact that he doesn't have a 6'5" frame and it's amazing what he's done. Due to his low touchdown total I don't think he's going to win, but you can't totally count him out either.
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 7:14 pm | #

I have never seen Hass play, but looking at the #'s they are remarkable. The lack of TDs is a black mark, but since he leads in every single other category, I would be hard pressed to say no. Shark has had an incredible year and deserves recognition, but I don't think he has earned the Biletnikoff, even though both are very hard to spell correctly.
okhrana | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 8:06 pm | #

let it go with the taunting. . . charlie . . . it was in the game and now it is over. Last I checked there is "Bush" rule about diving in the end zone when you don't have too, taunting????
You are ranting about one thing, you need to get over it. What do you want to happen??? ESPN to plaster the taunt all over TV and for the University to apologize for it with an official letter to Stanford? Would that make you feel better?
hmm | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 10:25 pm | #

It wasn't a serious taunt, let it go. A simple wave or "come on" gesture isn't the end of the world, or a sign of classlessness. In fact, the last team Weis coached, the NE Patriots' #1 WR Deoin Branch had a similar situation. In the AFC Championship game, they ran a reverse that he took for a touch down and as he ran in the direction of the pylon, too fast for the defenders, he waved good-bye. The gesture was very similar and Weis wasn't pissed about that one either.
PantsB | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 10:53 pm | #

My Ohio State friends are drooling at the chance of playing ND in the Fiesta. In fact, they point out, that the only team OSU would NOT be favored against, is USC. They boast of their superior talent, you know, better offensive line, defensive line, running backs, linebackers, defensive backs, and their all around stud quarterback. They are reminding me that their schedule was tougher than ND's, pointing out their 2 losses were to higher ranked teams. Their coach has won a national championship in both division 1 and division 2. They are reminding me of the last 2 meetings, and expect this meeting will produce simular results. An Ohio State blow out. Well all this may be true, and on paper, ND is a 7 to 10 point underdog, but, but, not so fast my friends. This year is the start of our turn baby. Bring on your BUCKEYES. Lets play the game and see what happens. GO IRISH, BEAT THE BUCKEYES.
TommyO | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 11:43 pm | #

As has been said many times before, needs to be repeated now, and said tomorrow;

When you score a touchdown, act like you've been there before.

Period.

"We are ND" includes that. Even for someone like JS who unlike JC can make silly mistakes.
Soapbox | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 7:48 am | #

Amen, TommyO. It's even worse for me as I live in Columbus and work at tOSU. I have daily first-hand experience how arrogant, obnoxious, and shameless (wouldn't you be ashamed if your team has a sub 50% graduation rate and an athletic department that cheats left and right?) tOSU fans are.

While they present some matchups I'd be worried about, I'll gladly take our chances for an opportunity to smack them down a few notches and pay them back for the '95 and '96 disasters.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 8:08 am | #

Who the hell was seriously suggesting benching Shark for the bowl game for a taunt? That is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. An apology is perfectly acceptable, but a suspension? Come back to reality.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 8:16 am | #

It's absurd to suggest suspending Shark for a minor if somewhat classless gesture that wasn't even flagged. Make him apologize and run a dozen windsprints after practice or something.

Is this the same charlie who droned on and on after the BYU game about how terrible it is that we don't run the ball more? While I kind of agreed with him there, he's way off base here (if it is the same guy).
Scott | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 8:54 am | #

Question - why does tOSU get to share Big 10, when they lost to Penn St? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious.
Irish&UDFlyerFan | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 8:56 am | #

You guys are ridiculous! Jeff leads the nation in TD's and has roughly 20 less catches than Haas and STILL has 1200 yards! Hands down it should be between Jeff & Jarett. Those 2 are very fine receivers.

And as far as the "taunt" is concerned...give me a break. You guys need to check your "holier than thou" ego at the door. Heres a 20 year old kid fighting his butt off every day in practice and games and a simple 'come get me' gesture that you can barely notice gets him all this from his own NOTRE DAME FANS?! This is the kind of crap that drives me nutts about our fans. Let the kids play.
Bear | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 9:45 am | #

Bear, only one of us is slamming Shark for the taunt.

And Scott, yes, this is the same Charlie who I believe claimed that Walker shouldn't be the starter because he's not a "feature back" and isn't as good as Thomas. It should be noted this is the same Walker who had 35 carries for 187 yards plus 50 some recieving yards.

And for Irish&UDFlyerFan, I'm not sure why tOSU tied for the Big Ten, but my guess is that its because they both had 1 loss in conference play, and while PSU beat OSU, OSU beat UM which beat PSU. I may be wrong, but that's my guess.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 10:08 am | #

A minor gesture? Is that because it was done below his shoulders or something? Reggie Bush gestures to the crowd on his way to the endzone and everyone throws a fit, but Jeff directly shows up and taunts an opponent on prime time television and its "minor" or "funny"?

Give me a break.

And the reason I keep harping on this is because it is getting no play at all. Bush's gesture got its own stories in the news. I can't believe this gets bushed aside. He should be suspended for at least the first quarter of the bowl game to send a message--not just to the team, but to the nation, that Notre Dame doesn't taunt its opponents. Period.
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 10:13 am | #

Charlie, youre an idiot. I dont care what Reggie did. So go back to your USC board.

Brad, sorry I included other people than Charlie. People like this drive me crazy.
Bear | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 10:18 am | #

All things being even, I think the player who looks the most like Fred Biletnikoff shuld win.

http://www.profootballhof.com/st...sp? item_id=1114
Patrick | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 10:34 am | #

Charlie, have you ever played competitive sports before??
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 10:47 am | #

I suppose Charlie played competitive sports to the same extent as CW did.
Soapbox | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 11:01 am | #

Don't know much about Hass' teammates, but Samardzija had build these stats by competing with a number of other great targets for Quinn (Stovall, Fasano, Carlson, Shelton, Walker, and even McKnight for 1.5 games).

If Hass is the entire Beaver offense (a la Alan Pinkett under Faust), then Hass' numbers are not nearly as impressive.
Vic | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 11:05 am | #

Sorry for my newbiness, guys, but I come from Puerto Rico and I'm new to this whole college football thing...I have a question: why do people write a "t" before OSU? As in tOSU. I tried searching a bit, but to no avail.
Thanks, go Irish!
Daniel Morales | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 11:23 am | #

Daniel - Whenever Ohio State talks about itself in publications and whatnot, it calls itself "THE Ohio State University". So, when talking about the school, people write tOSU.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 11:29 am | #

Daniel,

Because, as their alums say, it's THE Ohio State University.
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 11:37 am | #

Daniel,

Everyone above is lying....it's because tOSU and its fans are total assholes.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 12:01 pm | #

And the truth shall set you free!
Soapbox | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 12:12 pm | #

Thanks Brad - sounds familiar. 2 one loss teams, one beat the other. 1993. ND. FSU. Co-champs it is.
Irish&UDFlyerFan | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 12:30 pm | #

In my line of work, I have learned that the people in the offices around me are my teammates. If I have a problem with my teammate, I tell him or her directly. If a senior teammate (or, should I say "coach") has a problem with me, I expect him or her to tell me directly. I DO NOT expect my "coach" to broadcast my problems to the home office or to folks in my own office who are not on my team. Keep the problem in house.

So, if CW has a problem with "the Gesture," let's let him handle it HIS WAY. IN HOUSE. If it didn't get media attention, there's nothing wrong with that. You've said your own peace, and we know where you stand, but at this point just can it charlie!!
Fitzwater | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 1:19 pm | #

I agree. Football is an emotional sport and sometime the passion rushes to the forefront. If you're worried about a little finger wave get over it! As a football coach myself Shark's gesture was minimal at best. It's not like he posed for the crown after making a tackle or something. His emotions got the best of him and if it's just a finger wave then he still has pretty good control. Football is meant to be played with passion. We've already witnessed 7 years of it played without passion so quit whining.
Dan 96 | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 1:29 pm | #

I'd only truly be concerned if Shark started a light jog into the endzone around the 15 yard line while gesturing. THEN I'd be pissed. Yet to be perfectly honest, I watched the whole game and never even noticed this had occured til now. That's probably why it's not a story. Bush was because A)it was during one of the highest rated games in over a decade,and B) he got decked by Zibby for slowing down, and lastly, C) he does that sort of thing all the time.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 2:05 pm | #

The reason Reggie's taunt against ND got so much media attention was because Zibby hit the crap out of him before he made it to the endzone. If Jeff had slowed down and taken a similar hit, you would have heard about it from ESPN.
Kevin | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 2:09 pm | #

Not that it matters, of course, (its really interesting how those without an argument start attacking the person making the argument) but I have both played and coached competative sports. If one of my players had done that, he would have been benched for the next game--no questions asked.

No one is a bigger Notre Dame fan than me (go back to the USC board?) and this is precisely why I will hammer this point in the face of all the bad arguments. Jeff's was not an "emotional" reaction--rather, it was a calculated taunt done to humiliate an opponent.

Reggie Bush's taunt may have been made more interesting because he was hit--but I can guarantee the hypocritical Notre Dame faithful who are calling Jeff "emotional" and "having fun" would have still been crying a river at his gesture.

And, and Charlie Weis has known all year, public persona is a very important thing. That is why Jeff's punishment has to be public...to let the nation know that Notre Dame will not accept this kind of behavior. In addition, the punishment should hurt the whole team--as a symbol of how one person taunting an opponent hurts the whole team.
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 3:51 pm | #

Charlie,

Why do you blather on about "arguments" every other post? You argue he should be suspended for a taunt. I argue that such a punishment is far too severe. We have to take into account what he did. It's not like he turned around, walked backwards into the endzone flipping the bird to the Standford DBs and fans. If it was a blatant and very offensive jesture, then yes I do believe that something along those lines would be in order. But it wasn't, it was an error in judgement and that's all. While I am sure Charlie will deal with that in some manner, it isn't a big enough deal to suspend for an entire game. Now, if next week we had a game this would be a different story, but to punish a player 35 days after a game for something small and stupid that he did is just too much. Even Holtz wouldn't do something like that, though he was famous for suspending players who broke team rules. These are very different situations. In effect, due to all of the above, I simply believe that such a suspension would not only be too much, but far too late to have any positive effects on the growth of the team. The proper time to address this would be in the film room, where Charlie can let the team know how he feels about such actions. This concludes my argument.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 4:09 pm | #

I'll chime in on this quickly - Shark's was way less of a taunt than the Purdue WR that pumped his arm in the 2004 game. And if I recall, there was a 15 yd penalty on that. (Please - no one remind me of the WR's name, I've successfully forgotten at least a portion of that 'highlight')
Irish&UDFlyerFan | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 4:16 pm | #

Jeez, are we still on this? I hate the Miami-fication of the college game, but Shark's "taunt" was so minor that most people didn't even catch it in real time. Hell, I thought it was an attempted stiff arm until I saw the slo-mo replay from a different angle.

C'mon Charlie, if all the ND haters in the media (Keith Jackson, Dan Fouts, Mark May, etc etc) didn't make a peep, then it probably ain't that big a deal. Similarly, I haven't seen any of our "enemy" blogs mention it either.
If it had even remotely approached the brazeness of Bush's taunt, I'd bet my left nut that the media would've gone
apesh*t over it.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 5:02 pm | #

If you are worried that ND does not discipline their players appropriately, look no further than the article below this one. ND's leading scorer on the ground has been suspended for the last six games of his breakout fifth-year senior season for a DUI. How many schools do you think would do that? If ND has a problem with what Smarddzija did, they will take appropriate action. My thoughts are that the appropriate actions are for him to take a few extra laps at the next practice.

I remember a story about a cocky ND receiver that liked to take his helmet off after making a touchdown grab... I think his name was Miller, but I can't quite remember... I think he ended up getting kicked off the team. Holtz told him that if he took his helmet off again after a touchdown, he would force him to take his helmet off after he fumbled (which he had a knack for doing). This is the type of punishment, if any, that should be dealt.
Domer97 | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 5:18 pm | #

My two cents.

I can totally understand why Shark did the little taunt. If I just broke one for 80 yards, zig-zagging around defenders like a NYC taxi driver, I would want to make sure those people futilely chasing me knew it.

The reason it is problematic is that, in addition to being somewhat disrespectful (although funny), it is illegal. In future games, such an act could cost the team dearly. Whether you agree with the NCAA rules about showboating or not, by the letter of the law, what Jeff did was illegal and should have warrented a 15 yard penalty. It didn't in this game, but imagein a big game where it did and now we are kicking off from the 20. As we all saw in the Stanford game, short kickoffs fielded at the 25 pose a bit of a problem.

I expect Charlie to handle it the same way he did when Jeff forgot about the backwards lateral or Zibby's "loaf of bread." It will be discussed; you won't see it again; end of story.
Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 5:33 pm | #

First, Brad, nice to see you actually made an argument that was free of any personal attacks. First, you make my point for me exactly when you show how Holtz suspended people--for a whole game, against the number 2 team, in a hunt for a national championship--who broke team rules. I'm sure tauting your opponent is against team rules...and if it isn't, it should be. It is classless and not worthy of a team that bears the name Notre Dame. I would rather have a 5-7 team rather than one that acted in such a way and won. Perhaps I'm in the minority.

Why do you and other insist on minimizing what he did? Because you didn't notice it? Because it was done where mostly likely the defenders were the only ones to see it? It doesn't matter how "big" or "grand" the gesture was. It was classless taunting that was an embarassment to anyone with a moral compass that saw it. Period.

Finally, the point should NOT be handled in the film room alone--it should be handled publically. As I said several times already--Weis understands in other areas that public image is important, and he needs to be proactive here too. Those who saw the taunt were all thinking the same thing, "God, ND and Weis try to get all holier than though with 'Pass Right' and everything else, but when it comes right down to is they are arrogant asses who show up the other team. Just like everyone else."
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 11.29.05 - 11:40 pm | #

so charlie why do you insist on making such a big deal about it???? its over. . . get a life. ND football is great but it doesn't need to be analyzed to death (its a game). Coach Weis will do what he thinks is best, your ranting about something no one cares about - if Weis brings it up then he'll bring it up and deal with it. If he doesn't bring it up, don't go off about it, this is one of the reasons why no one wanted to be our coach with fans like you stating what the coach should do (ought to do). Big reason why the coach is paid big bucks, to coach and manage the team, ND doesn't need back seat coaches who haven't ever been a coach at a major school or pro level - if you get to be ND's coach you can do whatever you want . . . and bench everyone. Let Weis deal with it, if he thinks its a problem he'll deal with it, no need to air our dity laundry to the public (so you would have outted RPN after the DUI weeks ago??? Weis didn't say anything and kept it confidential leave it at that and let Weis handle it)
hmm | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 12:35 am | #

Charlie,

While this post may be dead now, I want to apologize. You are right....I did leave out personal attacks in my last post, and now I mean to correct it. You are an idiot. Really. This isn't a national scandal, it was just a young kid getting excited and doing something dumb. That's all. I don't think that you are providing any scale to what he did, and your suggestion of punishment does not fit the crime. You truly are what all ND haters hate. A few weeks ago Charlie didn't know shit about how to run the ball, or recognize talent in his backfield. Now he can't provide discipline to his team because of one small hand gesture? You made a knee-jerk reaction to the lack of a running game against BYU, a team we didn't need to run the ball against strategically. Now you're making a knee-jerk reaction to a player who is having a great year making a stupid mistake. I suppose if we lost 2 in a row at any point in time you'll cry for Weis's resignation as well?

The point is, as any football player or coach knows, you need to get your football players to play with emotion and passion. Just look at Ty's teams to see what a difference that can make. When you preach that constantly, and then it boils over into something like a taunt, you address it. You do not suspend a player. The message that gives to the team is not 'be a good sportsman,' its 'play with passion but not too much'. There's an old football saying that if you're gonna screw up, screw up at full go. That's what happened, and that's all. An apology is the most that could possibly be asked for in this situation, and that's it. If he was suspended for something like this, all it would do is alienate Charlie from his own team, because I assure you no one see's this as you do, and they would feel confused and betrayed by their coach for suspending a player for simply playing with passion.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 8:25 am | #

Wow, Charlie, you are taking a beating!! And what's all this about "anyone with a moral compass" would have been disgusted by The Gesture? Now who's making personal attacks? Do you think I don't have a moral compass, Charlie? I have a degree from Notre Dame Law School, and I think the faculty would be disappointed to know that they are churning out graduates with such low moral character. If only I had paid closer attention to Dean Link after we watched To Kill a Mockingbird, I wouldn't have failed Charlie's Gesture-Punishment-Dilemma.

It's time to let it go.
Fitzwater | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 8:44 am | #

Personally, I just love his vast generalizations. A few weeks ago it was "everyone knows that Travis Thomas is a better running back" and now its "anyone with a moral compass" should agree with him. This coming from a guy who bitches about people not "engaging" his argument. When you just make shit up, its not an argument...just shit.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 9:00 am | #

It is obvious that we cannot win an argument with Charlie. His encyclopedic knowledge of football is simply too overpowering, and it's darn near impossible to mount a credible counter-argument when you've lost your moral compass as we have.

It's really a shame what's happened to Notre Dame football. We have truly lost the dignity that the 5-7 teams of
1999 and 2003 gave us, as their incompetent play on the field assured that those of us w/our moral compasses intact would NEVER have to witness any excessive celebrations on the field, since their was nothing to celebrate.

Charlie Weis has clearly become the Barry Switzer of South Bend, dragging our good name into the mud. Why, I even heard that RPN only received a season-long suspension for a DUI, when he clearly deserved a multi-year jail sentence (I suppose a death sentence is too much to hope for in this era of moral decay). Even worse, Barry Switzer at least knew how to judge running back talent, much like Charlie (the one with the moral compass, not Weis) knows how to judge talent; you can't play 2 years of JV ball in highschool and go on to coach the 8 and under K_of_C team to consecutive Fort Wayne department of Parks and Recreation championships without being a football genius!

Gentlemen, the path is clear. We must fire the degenerate charlatan Charlie Weis immediately if we ever hope to regain our moral compasses (and our running game). There is only 1 person
who has the running game know-how, and the moral compass to lead us back to Glory (or at least a 5-7 team With Honor). He is the other Charlie (the one with the moral compass).
Scott | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 10:22 am | #

My post needs an umbrella, as sarcasm is just raining down on it from the post above. Honestly Scott, I think that has to be the best post I have ever seen. Bravo and kudos to you.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 11:05 am | #

I already put in my two cents above, now my "Final Thought" (TM):

To compete at the level collegiate football players are expected, they must have an attitude that says "I am better than you" in order to succeed. It becomes problematic when this attitude carries over to off-the-field, the "I am a better person than you because I play sports" syndrome that most fans hate about professional atheletes.

How to walk that fine line, to have the confidence to dominate your opponent while still being grounded, is what the NCAA strives for in their rules for conduct. It is what ND coaches, administrators, and fans expect from the players. Will players occasionally cross the line? Yes. Should they be reprimanded? Yes. Should there be further consequences? No. Fans too need to realize that actions on the field of battle do not define the man, the same way statistics cannot define his worth. For that, you have to look at the person, and that might involve looking at yourself.

So remember: take care of yourselves -- and each other.


Postscript:
Just a pet peeve of mine, but Charlie's post points out excatly why it should be standard that commas be placed between the next to last item on a list and "and."

"God, ND and Weis try to get all holier than thou . . ."

Because most newspapers have adpoted the no comma, I was left wondering, "How can God try to get all holier than thou?"
Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 1:00 pm | #

Charlie...dear Charlie...

"It doesn't matter how "big" or "grand" the gesture was. It was classless taunting that was an embarassment to anyone with a moral compass that saw it. Period."

Oh really? That is absurd. Everything must taken IN CONTEXT. His transgression was small. If one were to subscribe to your line of reasoning, then CW would have to put a microphone on every player's helmet so as to weed out the ones who muttered verbal taunts. Does a one word verbal taunt merit a suspension? Not even in high school doofus. How about if a player laughs or merely chuckles/giggles a bit after showing up an opponent? In your world, since these are in fact taunts, they too would require swift and public suspensions. CW would have to call a national press conference on ESPN in order to address the scandal when brady laughs at the d-lineman who knocked him down wasn't able to prevent him from throwing a perfect TD strike.

You're absurd and out of touch. Happy holidays.
dan c/o 2001 | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 1:12 pm | #

To Scott and Dan I say "right on". Both of your posts did a good job of illustrating what an idiot blowhard this Charlie guy is. And they were pretty damn funny too.
kevin | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 1:31 pm | #

I forgot to add that Scott's post is alot funnier if you read Charlie's earlier pontifications after the BYU game on how CW is doomed as a coach since he is a horrible judge of talent in the backfield, and how we should've run the ball 50 times even though BYU blitzed on every play.
kevin | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 1:38 pm | #

Well I figured Id comment on this topic since I have some time off...

Heres the deal, I want my WR's to have attitude. I want them to go out on the field every play thinking "theres no way this punk DB can cover me". Thats the attitude I want from each player on my team. I want a guy who will go get a ball when its way overthrown because he thinks he can. I want a guy to try to run over that linebacker who's bigger than him because he thinks he can. Heck, if one of my guys makes a big play and it breaks open a game Ill take the 15 yarder.

We have an attitude on this team this year. If you dont like it, get off the boat. Times have changed and we're here to win and bring back Notre Dame to where it once was. If you want to go back to the losing ways like it was in the past, then you got the wrong group of guys here. We're not having it.

In conclusion, I remember watching film on some of my favorite ND players like Chris Zorich, Ricky Waters, The Rocket, Tim Brown, & Ron Pow. Those guys had attitude and they let everyone know it.
Brady Quinn | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 3:19 pm | #

You got your homepage link wrong, Brady.
dvm | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 3:52 pm | #

Silence, BQ is infalable.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 3:54 pm | #

Well, it is difficult to post on here with so many bad arguments to which I would need to reply. I'll try to hit the worst ones.

Which, of course, means (as usual) we start with Brad. (Incidently, Brad, did you see how many times--even in having a good game--Walker turns a 5 yard gain into no gain? Also, are you old enough to remember 2002? Just so you don't bring up raw numbers to defend Darius Sanders, a certain stud running back named Ryan Grant and a thousand yard season--even spliting significant time with RPN.) Of course, as usual, you attributted to me a list of things I never said (national scandal, Weis isn't disciplining, he should be fired, etc.). But here is your worst argument: what Jeff did was passion boiling over. It was NOTHING of the kind. It was taunting. Plenty of wonderful players have left it all out of the field, with passion, and never would have even thought of publically taunting someone like Jeff did. Notre Dame has higher standards--if you don't like it...or you think its the reason no coach wanted to come here...then, please, stop rooting for this team and root for a Flordia school or something.

Hmmm...another "Weis is God so leave him alone" argument? *yawn*

That's right...anyone with a moral compass would be disgusted by a taunt like that. I stand by my comment. Those of you who are providing excuses or trying to call it something other than what it is would prefer to life in a world of illusion rather than deal with the fact one of Notre Dame's best players did something unacceptable and should be suspended for at least part of the bowl game.

As anyone who has every played sports as the underdog knows, you absolutely do NOT need to believe that you are better than the other team in order to win. You need to believe that you will execute better and will work harder. Overconfidence, in fact, often works against a team...and this led to Standford getting back into the game on Saturday.

Kevin...I know its asking a lot for you to be responsible in your posts, but would it be too much for you to at least attempt to be fair to what I said regarding the BYU game?

Dan, oh dear Dan. Happy Holidays to you too. What, pray tell, was the "context" that made publically taunting your opponent and embarassing them on national TV ok? Trash talk, while silly, is very very different from public taunting like that.

Brady...what about having attitude and confidence translates into publically humiliating and tauting your opponent?

I must say, I'm astounded that so many people are either minimizing--or actually defending--the tauting of an opponent. I mean this is the best possible way--you need a moral compass...and need a lesson as to what Notre Dame is all about. (Hint: its not winning football games.)
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 6:47 pm | #

FYI: here are a couple of posts from the other thread on this topic. I'm certainly not alone in my argument...though I wouldn't be surprised that others wouldn't want to mix it up with people who will take first personal shots and twist words in order to try to win arguments they cannot win on the merits.
----------------------------------
It is bush league to wave fingers tainting opponents. It is also a penalty if the refs see it. It is also patented by Erickson, P-F Satan and other classless coaches of assorted potential felons.

Walter Payton said it best. "Act like you have been there before and intend to be back, soon."
Yago | Email | Homepage | 11.27.05 - 2:53 pm | #

Taunting is for the likes of the "U", not ND. I don't know how to teach a lesson like that. Hopefully, Charlie does. We can't tolerate that stuff. It's immature, classless, demeaning to the other team. Ask Terrell Owens what it gets you in the long run.
bevo | Email | Homepage | 11.28.05 - 1:53 pm | #
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 7:10 pm | #

By the time he was 17, Charlie had already forged an uncanny ability to assess division I-A running back talent with infinitely more precision than even the brightest minds of the college coaching ranks, which was not at all suprising given his 4 consecutive years as the 3rd string left tackle for the St. Ignoramos Blowhards JV football team. But his coaching gestalt was never fully complete-- until he found his moral compass to guide him in matters of Honor and Discipline.

One cold, autumn friday night in 1984, amongst the Cheetoh's dust, Billy Ocean album covers, and TRON game cartidges strewn about his parents' suburban basement rec room, 17 year old Charlie settled in to watch a movie that, unbeknownst to him, would have a profound impact on his coaching philosophy regarding Matters of Discipline and Finding One's Moral Compass:

www.imdb.com/title/tt0088117/

"Punishment is absolute. Punishment is good."
Scott | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 10:00 pm | #

Scott...that is just fantastic.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 10:25 pm | #

charlie, i think everyone pretty much gets your point by now. the horse is dead, beaten, rotting, and leaking stuff. let's just let it all go and wait to see what CW does or doesn't do about everything.
Mike | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 11:06 pm | #

Weis isn't god but he is the coach so let him deal with any problems he has with the team or the actions of a team member (who made you boss of ND football?? seriously). . . so if you were at your job working, you would be all for some outside observer telling you what to do?? thats the pt, its not your responsbility, nor has anyone given you that responsibility. We are all outside observers (unless all of a sudden you became a player or a coach), we don't know how things are handled. how about my RPN argument, weis didn't say anything about it - left it confidential - so you would have outed RPN for making a mistake on top of the university suspending him for practically the whole season? again Weis isn't god but he is paid to do a job, his way. . . or would you want him to take orders from you?
hmm | Email | Homepage | 11.30.05 - 11:21 pm | #

Food for thought from Charlie's first press conference:

"...You are going to have a hard-working, intelligent, nasty football team that goes on the field because the attitude of the head coach will be permeated through the players. And I hate to include the nasty, but that is part of being a winning football team."

Discuss.
Tulsa ND '97 | Email | Homepage | 12.01.05 - 6:02 am | #

This discussion has now grown tiresome, though I keep coming back to it. The only unexpressed thought I still have on the topic is this -- judging Charlie solely on the words he has written, he strikes me as someone who craves every bit as much public attention (for Notre Dame) as Chad Johnson (whom I love) does (for himself). Charlie wants the nation to look at Notre Dame as it "sets an example" for everyone else to follow. It reminds me of Christ's admonition to spurn the example of the Pharisee who prays out loud in public so that all might see how good he is.

Let the matter be handled quietly by those who are actually involved.
Fitzwater | Email | Homepage | 12.01.05 - 9:16 am | #

Fitz, if the discussion has grown tiresome then stop writting comments. I don't care one way or the other about public attention--its going to happen anyway. I care about what that public attention is.

Tulsa, apparently Charlie thinks being Nasty has nothing to do with humiliating an opponent. (See the margin of victory in blowout games.)

Hmmm...let me guess, you were leading the same crusade against those critcizing Tyrone Willingam, right? I mean, "he was the coach" too.

Brad, well said. I mean, who can argue with that?

Scott:

http://www.pediatriconcall.com/ f...tute_mental.asp

For the record, I wish we'd fund these schools better. Let me know if I can help run a telethon for your tuition or something. I care.
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 12.01.05 - 3:33 pm | #

Charlie, please tell me it didn't take you all last night and today to think of that comeback. It has George Costanza- esque futility (e.g. "Jerkstore") written all over it.

However, I am delighted by the irony of you piously lecturing all of us about our lack of a "moral compass" for 3 days straight, only to turn around and use the suffering of mentally retarded and handicapped children as a punchline.
scott | Email | Homepage | 12.01.05 - 4:13 pm | #

Hmmm...let me guess, you were leading the same crusade against those critcizing Tyrone Willingam, right? I mean, "he was the coach" too.


by your logic . . . of higher standards then we should have given Ty, 2 more years?? Notre Dame always give coaches 5 years???

be happy but then again that is beyond most ND fans who want to grip about how we are winning
hmm | Email | Homepage | 12.01.05 - 5:00 pm | #

Scott, no actually after reading your post it came to me immediately. (Actually, to be fair, the fact that you are retarded came to me some time ago...putting a link to helpful schools came to me as soon as I got the idea from your link. Thanks.)

Also, Scott, YOU are the punch line. Not the suffering children. It's always the people that lead with the personal attacks that whine the loudest when someone gives it back to them. Sad, really. I wish I could say that I expected better...but, yeah, I didn't.
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 12.01.05 - 6:20 pm | #

"Jerkstore". Nice Seinfeld reference. But I doubt Charlie got it.
jon | Email | Homepage | 12.01.05 - 7:11 pm | #

Does anyone else think that taunting someone by calling them "retarded" is totally classless and not what is expected from a Notre Dame student? Is this not a stain on the image of Our Lady's University?

I think Chalie should apologize and perhaps have his next stipend check withheld.

What's that you say? He was baited into it? He was only responding in kind to taunts made at him? One's character cannot be judged based on an isolated comment made in the heat of a passionate discussion?

Good points, just don't let it happen again.
Tom | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 1:19 am | #

Maybe we should suspend him, that would teach him and the nation
Jake | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 7:22 am | #

I also believe we should suspend Charlie for the bowl game for acting without a moral compass, making personal attacks, and other such reasons he places on others.

All kidding aside though, making fun of mentally handicapped children? That's way too much, even I wouldn't go there and I'm a complete asshole. There could be contributors/fans of this site who have mentally handicapped children/brothers/cousins. We get into some rather comical arguments here, yet while we're joking around and having fun at eachother's expense, that is just something that is not funny at all.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 8:13 am | #

If Charlie were talking about taunting (making baiting comments and/or gestures to your opponent), then perhaps I could see a point, though I wouldn't agree with it. However, I'm confused--half the time he accuses Samarj of "tauting"--and I'm not sure I know what making something tighter has to do with penalties and moral compasses. One time, I'd take it for a spelling mistake, but it's almost every other time he writes the word. Is there some NCAA rule against tightness that I'm missing?
Nate | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 8:37 am | #

Aw hell. Let poor charlie get in the last word he so desperately craves and let's move on.
scott | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 9:00 am | #

Jon...you're their all time best seller.

Tom, Jeff was baited into it? Someone taunted him first?

Brad, I'm still trying to figure out how I made fun of handicapped children? I know you're full time job is to attributting to be things I never said...but this is going a little far.

Scott...if I didn't respond to your "he so desperately craves" comment you would have gotten the last word...which, apparently, you need to get? Physician, heal thyself.
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 9:57 am | #

You're right Charlie. You never put up a post with a link to doctors for mentally handicapped and spastic children and suggested a telethon to get money to help Scott, who you inferred was mentally handicapped. You never did that at all. Your moral compass steered you far away from such actions.

P.S. You need some new material man, just for the sake of shits and giggles. I'm not even trying to be funny or rude here. Every other post is "if you're not going to address my argument.." (which you don't really make either, we all just kinda float out opinions) or "don't place words in my mouth..." and not just for this thread, but for the whole 'Darius is awful' thing too. It's all stock, try to work something new in (you do get kudos for the "you're their bestseller" reference, that was excellent).
Brad | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 10:17 am | #

Now that I'm thinking about it, does anyone out there remember George's comeback to "you're their bestseller" that he thinks of in the car right at the end of the episode?
Brad | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 11:11 am | #

Charlie, how do you know he wasn't baited? Were you on the field with him? I think you would be amazed at the amount of trash talking that goes on the field, and I would imagine if you were just named a finalist to the Biletnikoff Award, you have a bullseye on your back for DBs. If you look at the route, the guy chasing Jeff is the same one who gave him a nice elbow to the face as he ran by, so he had that going for him too.

My point stands whether or not he was baited. You're arguement has been that it is unacceptable for a member of this university to say or do anything that reflects negatively on it, regardless of the circumstances.

How is your name calling any different than Jeff's finger waving. Yes, an ND football player is more visible, but postings on a public internet site that averages over 3000 hits a day (and that is conservative -- 1,000,000 hits/330 days), most of whom are people interested in learning more about Notre Dame football is pretty visible too, not to mention that Jeff's act last a second an a half while your posting have gone on for days now.

Yes you were riled up, but how do you know that Jeff wasn't. Even if he wasn't called out by the opponents, he was still competing in one of the highest level of competition. Imagine the adrenaline pumping through your veins as you peck away on your keyboard. Now imagine Jeff getting ready to run a crossing route where he could get his head taken off.

The only ones that know for sure are Jeff, the DB, and Coach Weis, and those are the only ones that can determine the proper manner in which to handle it. End of Story.
Tom | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 12:26 pm | #

I think we need a new verbal commitment or something, just to get people to stop responding to this post. I know I'm feeling the boredom that comes with the lack of Irish news.
dvm | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 1:14 pm | #

Brad, you are probably right...but its hard when people do the same things over and over to not respond with the same things over and over. (Incidently, I didn't bring up Darius Sanders this time.) Honestly, I'm still trying to figure out how comparing, obviously in jest, Scott to a handicapped child is making fun of handicapped children. Help me out on this one. If I say, "You're an idiot" is that making fun of people with a low IQ? Finally, anything more than mere asseration is an argument. Most people are making arguments on this board. Oh, and George says, "Well, I had sex with your wife!"

Tom...two things. First, that was the second play of the game. At most Geoff had been taunted one time and that was unlikely. Second, the MAJOR difference here is that (1) mine responded to an obvious, public taunt, and (2) his happened as he was representing the University of Notre Dame. I represent nobody.
Charlie | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 5:56 pm | #

Charlie, you are student at the University of Notre Dame (in the Theology Department no less), of course you represent the University. If you don't think you do, then perhaps you don't get what it means to be a Domer as much as you proclaim to.
Tom | Email | Homepage | 12.02.05 - 8:57 pm | #