good rundown. i agree, rather unfortunate to have an airing of words through the local media. this whole scenario and lack of a unified response puzzles me given charlie's tight control over his staff and player's interaction with the media. oh well, best of luck to joey. go irish!
jaydee | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 11:13 am | #

Yeah, I also thought the whole thing sounded a bit strange. Maybe some reporter gave Charlie some shit about academics and football getting in eachothers way or something, I dunno. It is quite unusual. Best of luck to Hiben, though.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 11:27 am | #

I agree that Charlie's response seems a bit of an overkill.

I'm an Arkie major and in many times I found myself in very tight situations concerning time management (I was not formally involved in any organized extracurricular activities). I could not visulaize myself having to juggle football and architecture together. It all comes down to a personal decision about how you feel you can handle all the demands on your time.

I also cannot imagine Notre Dame forcing him to make such a decision.

All the best Joey, and make sure you enjoy the heck out of Rome and the rest of Europe. That one turned out to be one of the best years of my life.
jaykit | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 11:29 am | #

I wonder how being an arkie will play out with Raeshon McNeil.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 11:39 am | #

Jaykit, you say you can't imagine someone having the time to juggle both arch and football. That's exactly right -- is it a surprise to anyone that balancing the two seems daunting?

That's why Charlie's response is mystifying -- I think everyone in the world can understand that the demands of both programs would stretch somebody pretty thin. There's no (public) implication from Joey at all that Charlie forced him into this -- in fact, the thought never even crossed my mind when I first read the news. I just figured architecture is more important to Hiben, he made a choice, and kudos to him for making a tough decision. Was the harsh response (or getting "all bothered", as Charlie said) necessary? I don't think so.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 12:17 pm | #

In defense of Charlie, I think he was trying to make sure that this statement by Hiben did not affect any future recruits. I think he was concerned that Hiben stating he had to choose football or architect would put a poor image of ND to future recruits. I think this statement was simply trying to save face and attempt to maintain a strong pull in future recruits. That's all I really gathered from it.
ND101 | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 12:45 pm | #

It's possible the inflamatory rhetoric that set Charlie off came from a wise-ass reporter . . . or maybe Charlie just doesn't have enough to consume himself with in the post-signing day, pre-spring drills period.
jakester | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 12:50 pm | #

Joey probably also saw the calibur and quantity of TE's coming in and made a logical assessment. "I could work my ass off, play a year and then fall on the depth chart to obscurity or concentrate on excelling in the field I plan to spend the next 40 years practicing.

And I think Charlie was weis to make it perfectly clear he didn't force the choice. First year of studies and a few choice math classes will either change Raeshon's mind on the major or he might be the Rhodes scholar that can handle it. I suspect a few more Ty-scholars will be dropping in the next year or so -- or moving to special team specialists if the depth chart continues to get stronger.
Yago | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 1:00 pm | #

I agree with ND101. I don't think it was necessarily a response to any of Hiben's comments, but rather, Charlie just making it obvious that it is possible for architecture and football to coexist in a Notre Dame student's life. He wants to curtail any negative recruiting by other schools who may be courting someone with hopes of a career in architecture.
josh | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 1:05 pm | #

Yago, I get that, I just didn't see this as an appropriate response given the public record thus far. Hiben didn't pin the decision on Charlie, didn't claim an ultimatum, and even followed up with a very blunt clarification that it was his decision. So for Charlie to say things like, "[T]here's a big difference between what he said to you and what the truth really is"...well, it seems disjointed.

Maybe we're missing a reporter's question here where he brought up something Hiben said off the record, and Charlie was responding to that.

I'm really not trying to make a big deal out of this, but go back and re-read Charlie's words. Maybe I'll break it down...
Jay | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 1:10 pm | #

There have been plenty of football players who majored in architecture at ND, so Joey could have made it work IF HE WANTED. He just would have missed his year in Rome - which I do admit is an unforgettable experience. I was there in '76-'77 and one of my classmates played football and could not join us (Mike Falash, QB). The following year the same thing was true with QB Rusty Lisch and TE Kevin Hart.

The whole story just doesn’t add up to me. I bet his heart just isn't in football and think he would have done the same thing if he majored in business or pre-med.

Just my opinion - good luck to Joey.
bjm | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 1:20 pm | #

I too am an architecture alum, who studied back in the day when the current arkie faculty rose to power.
SBT glosses over the fact that Hiben appears to have been pulled from two implicitly opposing directions: football from one side, and an academic program from another. Of course, TWise is famous, so he gets interviewed. The influence of Arkie faculty is the other, neglected side of the story.
True, the arkie program is a bitch, and can be rewarding. I was no varsity athlete. However, I know of several classmates who DID juggle many non-architecture commitments, and still managed to graduate. I also know that the faculty resisted when these kids expressed a desire to explore avenues that weren't architecture-related, that they would prefer their students to give 100% to the "program," and I don't mean football. Freinds of mine played softball, soccer, club sports, and yes, even VARSITY FOOTBALL. It ain't easy, but it can and has been done.
It would be sad if the architecture faculty is the force pulling the strings behind Hiben's decision. The faculty has tried to dictate to kids before what they can and cannot do. Hiben is giving up an extremely valuable scholarship to pursue his academic love. I hope for his sake it's worth it.
john | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 1:23 pm | #

"Here's the problem I have,'' Weis said. "When a kid wants to leave the football program, I have no problem with that if that's what they so choose.

So far so good.

But when the implication is that Notre Dame football would not allow him to pursue his academic dreams, I think that sends a very bad message.

Where is the implication? I think you have to dig to find it in that one-line quote from Joey in the initial article. Am I missing another public record source here?

"Just basically, this kid is saying he's choosing architecture over football because he had to make a choice, and that's not the case. He wanted to make that choice. He didn't have to make that choice. There's a big difference between the two.''

See, I think Hiben would agree with that statement. Continuing--

"I think it's very important for anyone, for the next architecture major out there that I'm talking to in recruiting, to understand that this kid leaving the program had nothing to do with him not being able to get a degree in architecture and play football. It had absolutely nothing to do with it," Weis said.

This is the crux of the point for Charlie, and I totally agree with putting this out there. But it should have been couched in a joint release by Hiben & Weis. It could have been very simple, with Hiben concurring to the above paragraph. Instead, it's reaction to something Hiben said, and sets them at odds.

"It had to do with the fact that he didn't want to play football anymore. And there's a big difference between what he said to you and what the truth really is.

That's the overreaction. As far as we can see, there isn't a big difference. We don't know what was said behind closed doors, but Joey's public statement doesn't really conflict with anything Charlie would like to put forward here. The only conflict is Charlie asserting that there's a conflict.

"What I basically was saying to him was that I'd be totally supportive of his academic interests and make the architecture major go for him no matter what, by allowing him his third year to go to Rome, which I thought was above and beyond the call of duty for me to do that," Weis said. "It was addressed both before he came here and it was addressed after he brought it up again, and with academic support people in hand. It wasn't like a closed door, me just saying it to him. I made sure that he heard it reiterated that this would go. That's what really has us all bothered. We're so pro-academics."

I have to say that the line 'above and beyond the call of duty' struck me, as if allowing Hiben to go to Rome was a concession bestowed by Charlie. Perhaps this is the point of contention: in today's article, Hiben claims that there was nothing agreed upon with regards to Rome, just some verbal assurance that "we'll make it happen one way or another." Again, who knows what was said behind closed doors, but the public reaction from Charlie doesn't seem warranted, and given Hiben's public statement they could have come up with a very satisfactory release that pleases everyone. Something like this:

Hiben: "I regret to leave the team, but this is something I need to do. Good luck to all my friends and to my coaches. Everyone has been very supportive."

Weis: "We hate to see Joey go, and we tried to talk him into staying, but it's his decision, and we support it."
Jay | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 1:26 pm | #

Yago, I think you are being a bit quick to judge Hiben's abilites as a tight end. He was rated about the same as Anthony Fasano coming out of high school. There is no reason to think he would have fallen into obscurity on the depth chart.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 1:27 pm | #

I see why Charlie wanted to speak out. He does not want parents or high school juniors to think that you can't get any studying done if you play football. And he's frustrated that he tried so hard to make it work and Hiben left anyway, intimating all the while that football was too demanding. Charlie is walking a careful line here, and I think he did it successfully.
1NDGal | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 1:55 pm | #

. . or maybe *Jay* just doesn't have enough to consume himself with in the post-signing day, pre-spring drills period.
Patrick | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 1:59 pm | #

Patrick = truthsayer.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 2:01 pm | #

I didn't think Weis was overboard. Sure, it would have been nice if SBT could have had CW and Hiben get everything in one article, but I don't think either were over the top. When I read Weis's "side of the story" all I thought was it was a football coach making a statement that it is entirely possible to get an arkie degree AND play varsity football at ND if you really want to. The arkie faculty probably (I've never been an architect major) aren't any different than pre-med, pre-law, or business faculty in their desire to see quality students devote more time to their major academic areas, so I doubt that was an issue.
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 2:03 pm | #

I don't have a problem with it. ND sells itself, at least in part, on education and the fact that players take regular classes and are part of the student body, so its important for Charlie to make clear to everyone that you aren't going to be forced to choose between a major you want and football.

Yeah, it would have been nice if Hiben and Weis did a joint statement. But it sounds like Hiben left the team without talking to Charlie -- Charlie said the last time they talked he thought things were worked out.

I'm guessing that the reporter pissed Charlie off by implying to him that Hiben was forced to choose and asking questions about football players not being able to do certain majors, and thats why Charlie said what he did.
KL | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 2:19 pm | #

John was right on the money with his comments about the architecture program. I graduated from the arkie program and was a three time All-American in track and cross-country, and can relate unequivocally that the culprit in this is the faculty in the architecture program.

I was told implicitly as a Freshman by one Professor that I would never be able to successfully compete in sports AND continue on in the architecture program - which brought immeasureable stress on me from both ends. When I persisted with my athletics, I felt the sting from certain professors 'subjective' grading system. It can be weathered through. Granted running is different than football in that I could train myself on the days studio conflicted with practice - something that would be impossible with football, so I'm not certain how that issue would be resolved other than re-scheduling the afternoon studios which seem to be conspicuously arranged to purposefully conflict with any other extra-cirricular activities.

As was said before, the factor of this equation that should be facing the greatest scrutiny is not weis or hiben, but the arrogance of the architecture faculty that believes their program is the end-all, be-all of academics and considers it an insult that someone not be utterly consumed with architecture (which is why so much of the workload is designed for time than practicality...but that's another blog I could spend forever on :-)
Derek | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 2:37 pm | #

Thanks for the perspective, Derek. Good stuff.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 2:38 pm | #

I have to come out and admit something...

This whole Hiben thing is a prank! I did it all, simply so I could have some news in the offseason and could have something to talk about! I'm joking ofcourse, but its not beyond the realm of possibility for me.

On a serious note, I'd have to agree with those who believe the arch faculty had a lot to do with this. While I have no person affiliation with the arch program, I've seen similar things happen to students at other prestigious adacemic institutions. IU has one of the top music programs in the nation, right up there with Juiliard (sp?) and a good friend of mine is a violinist there. He also happens to be a body builder, and was literally ordered to stop lifting weights because it would ruin any chance of his to gain a seat on a good symphony due to the thinking that a 'bulky' body can ruin good form for a violinist. I also know many others at the Kelley School of Business who are continuously forced to jump through hoops because the faculty enjoy forcing the students to compete. Its not that suprising if something similar happened to Joey.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 3:31 pm | #

None of this is new to the comments section, but I'll throw it out there anyway. I'm an architect and completely understand Hiben's decision. I can't imagine balancing football with class. I'm surprised to read how many others have successfully done it at ND. I spent way too many nights with little or no sleep trying to finish up a project. Add to that the physical exertion of football and its brutal.

And I felt Charlie was a little aggressive/defensive in his response. I saw plenty of plausible explanations above though.....
jaisn | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 4:14 pm | #

The arkie profs must be a tough bunch. I didn't pay attention to anything my professors said that didn't have to do specifically with the content of the class that I was in. Heck, I used to write papers in class that were specifically on subjects that my teacher would hate and then I'd go over her head when she failed me on them.
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 4:33 pm | #

I'm going to re-iterate what some of the successful archies have pointed out.

I know a handful of stories about archies that did exceptional academic work as well as maintained a balance of life. Hence, it is possible.

Story 1: My friend Alan was diagnosed with a medical condition that was said to be a pre-cursor to MultipleSclurosis (sp?). He was told staying up all night for archie work would speed up his road to MS. Interestingly enough, he got his archie degree and didn't stay up all night to do it. His condition gave him drive and focus that not all students have.

Story 2: Dan and Karen. Dan and Karen run their own design firm. Yeah, they worked hard at ND for their classes, but the were a very focused motived and mature type of person, and I'm pretty sure they weren't pulling that many all nighters. That's why at 33-34 they've been running their own firm for the last 3-5 years. They just had the focus and moxie to do what they had to do.

Story 3: Joe. Joe had to hold odd jobs to pay for school, because financial aid wasn't enough. He still graduated with his archie degree. Not glamorous, but such is the way of the focused individual. Do not underestimate the power of human will.

So yes, its possible. But fitting in to a normal social life of an ND archie can easily throw things out of perspective. And I'd put $$ that the faculty would prefer their students just focus on said academic work. It was like that in my engineering classes. That's just the way most myopic academics work. I mean that's why they're NOT coaching football, OK?

All this being said, its pretty obvious that it'd be easier to have a semblence of a more normal student life if you only had education as opposed to education and some 30hr/week outside activity.

Best of luck to all. No harm no foul.
atepesm | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 4:35 pm | #

The problem is the lack of coordination and/or flexibility between the academics and the athletic departments - at least in architecture. There should be tutors, mentors, or at the very least, professors, willing and able to work with students who are eager and able to push through stereotyped boundaries.

I can't speak for Hiben whether he was into football more than is indicated, and he felt forced to quit for achitecture, but the important thing is for students to not feel like that is the ultimatum.
Derek | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 5:05 pm | #

Hey atepesm:

Did you know Dan and Karen too? Great pair!

They had their balanced life and everything, however their extra curricular activities were not as time intensive as football would be.

They did manage to get their projects done a little differently than how the prof's were preparing us to do.Apart from being laser-sharp-focused, they were also studying up on using AutoCad (before computer aided design was formally incorporated into the program). So they were a pioneering new methods to get their projects done faster, while us poor slobs were still working our projects completely by hand.

We also had a guy in our class who got his Arch degree while doing varsity swimming. However, none one was involved in football.

Once more, good luck Joey, and all the best.

If Dan and Karen get to read this, my fondest greetings to them.

JY
jaykit | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 5:32 pm | #

i'm just wondering if jay is missing the point here. hiben didn't create the problem for the coach. public opinion continually creates a problem for the ball coach. the people that only read headlines, or half the story and then make up their opinion on a given topic.
these are the people that weis was speaking to. certainly not the faithful who read every last line, and actually read everything for nuances and little wrinkles in each event because this is our life. i just think that weis was shouting the message that academics, whatever the major, and football do mix well under the golden dome. many people out there don't think that this is the case, and these kinds of people are talking to charlie's future recruits. therefore he needed to go on record as saying that these are the types of allowances that the football program will make. i'm an arkie alum and i seem to remember a couple people dropping architecture or football (or other sports) because of conflicts over what really was to happen when faced with being away in rome for the year. heck, i might have even considered trying to walk-on the team if such forgiving leadership were at the helm. and if memory serves, i think even the just lou holtz may have pressured his players to make the decision to play football or study architecture. there are fingers to point on both sides of this issue, but i give kudos to weis for trying every avenue to make academics/football work for all his players.
joendarch95 | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 5:40 pm | #

joendarch95,

I think your suspicions are entirely valid. What struck me was the incongruity between what Hiben originally said, and Weis's response. Yet, I know I'm reading closely and I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill. As I said in the post, I "get" the meta-message that Charlie is trying to get out there, and I agree with it.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 6:13 pm | #

We REALLY need some plain ol' football stuff to talk about. . .
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 7:34 pm | #

I think that what charlie said might have been overkill, but reading the original article, it really makes it seem that Hiben, due to time considerations, couldn't make football and architecture work. It makes it seem as if Hiben had to choose between one or the other, and there wasn't the possibility to do both, not due to either party, but simply because of the work load. I think that charlie could have done without getting into all the personal details, but the original article made it necessary for charlie to come out and state, in no uncertain terms, that it is certainly possible to do academics, even arch, and football.

oh, and the article does mention that Hiben intends to go out for the track team someday, so it may be thing to do with the rigors of football rather than just any extracurricular.
tedwick | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 7:39 pm | #

Also remember that McNeill is an Arch major. Word gets around. Coach seems to just be addressing it.
Matt Alkire | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 7:52 pm | #

Actually, when I read the SBT article about Hiben, I had the same reaction that Weis might have: that the implication was that architecture and football were mutually exclusive.

I think it was the use of "tug-of-war" in the first line and then this quote:

"Hiben cited time demands of both as his reason for choosing one over the other."

Notice that both were editorial comments from the author of the piece, Wieneke, and not statements from Joey.

Weis was just protecting his turf. Who knows, he may have been speaking with a recruit the night before about the opportunity of playing football at ND and earning one of the country's finest architecture degree.
Kevin | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 8:24 pm | #

What ever happened to good ol' American Study majors??? Jay, check the website's email.
Jamie Reidy | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 8:29 pm | #

I'm just waiting for someone from Michigan to quit football so he can focus on his kinesiology studies.
Jeff | Email | Homepage | 02.17.06 - 9:23 pm | #

Reading between the lines, I suspect Hiben may have pissed off CW in the way he handled his notification. CW made time for Hiben and was satisfied that Hiben's concerns had been satisfied/met.

Then he gets a call from Powlus saying Hiben had quit. I suspect that CW expected the courtesy of a personal notification.

I also suspect that CW asked Hiben to specifically not publicly mention the tensions b/t academics and football. How hard would it have been for Hiben to simply say he was done with football?

I, too, was taken aback by CW's assertion that he went beyond the call in "allowing" his arkie major to spend a year in Rome. But upon further review, I think it was a shrewd statement. The bottom line is that he is willing to lose a player's services for a season (or maybe longer) if it is best for the student.

Wanna bet that Urbie or The Poodle would go along with something like this?
Ed | Email | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 12:51 am | #

I don't think Weis should let arkies go to Rome. Honestly...if you were granted admission to the university because of anticipated contributions to football, and have your top-tier education PAID FOR IN FULL as compensation for you anticipated contributions to football, then you should have to stay and...work on making good on said anticipated contributions.

And just out of curiousity, atepesm- what is this MS precursor??? optic neuritis or incontinence or what? ya either got the largely-subjective diagnosis of multiple sclerosis or you don't. I've never heard of anything (literature, not google-science) saying that long sessions without sleep hasten the onset. Disease-modifying drugs, sure. Just curious. But I digress.
dannynd01 | Email | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 4:30 am | #

You better have 1500++ on the old SAT and love to work, if you are to try varsity athletics and archie.

It seems to me that the archie program might try to work out something where athletes could do the bulk of their course work while on schollie, and then finish the rest later. Perhaps they could give a 4-year degree that covers the core courses necessary for archie and prepares someone to come back later for 2 years to get the actual archie degree, perhaps as a 2nd major or as a master's.
Bill | Email | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 9:42 am | #

I think there's a possibility that the question posed to Coach Weis was loaded to the degree that the media relayed something Hiben said to them, but wasn't included in the article, and Charlie responded to that. Just a guess/hunch.
Joe | Email | Homepage | 02.18.06 - 4:53 pm | #

as a current architecture major, I can definitely confirm what others have said about the mentality of the professors. With respect to the third year in Rome, it's not really an issue of Weis 'allowing' a certain player to go there. There is absolutely no way that a student would be given a degree in architecture without going to rome, so the player would have to go if he wanted to stay in the major.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 02.19.06 - 10:45 am | #

Hey, why is no one mentioning the growing unemployment rate amoung arqies? Hiben might have had better career oppportunities in the NFL versus any sizable architectural firms.
Yago | Email | Homepage | 02.19.06 - 12:31 pm | #

In reference to going to Rome for a year-there's always room for setting up "alternate" courses of study for people with extenuating circumstances. Are you telling me that there's no way that the ark administration couldn't have a think tank in order to come up with something for athletes who couldn't or shouldn't leave? As someone previously suggested, perhaps give such students a six-year course of study. I'm not buying that it would be impossible if the powers at be really wanted to make it happen.
dannynd01 | Email | Homepage | 02.19.06 - 1:05 pm | #

This may have been mentioned, but I think that Hiben had met with Charlie and his academic adviors together. When that meeting was over, no indication was given to Charlie that Hiben was going to drop football. I think Hiben's announcement caught Charlie by surprise (maybe in hindsight he should have seen it coming).

My impression is that Charlie went on the offensive to make it clear that Hiben was not forced to drop football. I see nothing wrong with that. He wanted to make it clear to incoming and future recruits that the FB program is fully supportive of any academic interests. If Hiben had made this decision during his meeting with Charlie and told him directly before making it public, I don't think Charlie's reaction would have been the same.

If they had been on the same page, they could have worked out a joint press release regarding Hiben's decision that would have avoided the SBT reporting. I don't know who, if anyone, is at fault here. Hiben has the right to make his 40 year decision and concentrate on academics, but Charlie probably had a right to know about the decision before it got into the SBT.
Jack Bennett | Email | Homepage | 02.19.06 - 3:01 pm | #

As anyone who has gone to ND in the past 40 years should understand -- Hiben, as a freshman, is not an Architecture major -- he is in the Freshman Year of Studies Program -- with a studies program directing him at a future major. There is a big difference -- ND gives you a great base in your freshman year -- if you think you want to be an arkie and you find you can't handle the math or the hours making models (As a Chem E I always missed that -- it looked like fun even though I didn't have the talent) , you have an opportunity to change. I don't know how many of my hall mates changed from engineering to business after my freshman year -- it just happens. I guess my only comment on Hibben is that he might be anticipating a workload that he may have found intimidating based on his first 1-1/2 years in a tough freshman year program (FYI -- in my day Emil T Hoffman put a lot of pre-med hopefuls into Marketing)
Kenski72 | Email | Homepage | 02.19.06 - 10:21 pm | #

well, he's not changing majors, just quitting football. with the FYoS thing taken into account, i think he might have been told by the architecture folks that it'd be pretty much impossible to pull the arch/football combo off coming into his second year.

oh, and i guess campus lingo for engineering is "pre-business". : )
tedwick | Email | Homepage | 02.19.06 - 11:08 pm | #

What happened to cranky Seamus?

I would love to read his take on the Weis hissy fit. Something to balance all of his enablers on this thread.
BMW | Email | Homepage | 02.19.06 - 11:09 pm | #

this has been said but i feel the situation is being over-analyzed. There was an article in a paper with an ND football player saying "I'm quitting football because I'd like to major in architecture." Weis reads that, imagines a high school recruit who even THINKS he's interested in architecture reading that and thinking to himself "well i guess i can't go to notre dame."

Charlie covers his ass for recruiting. Plain and simple as that.

As for the actual validity of being able to do football and architecture?? From what I've seen, architecture is not a top 3 (IMHO) hardest major at ND because the coursework or academia is particularly challenging, rather it's the ridiiiiculous TIME that those kids put in, particularly their sophomore year at Bond Hall. Most of the archies I know would be up all night working on a particular model from 8pm-5am. Imagine finishing up the work you want to get done at 5am, and walking over to loftus with no sleep for conditioning with Mendoza...

I'm sure there are people who have successfully done the combo, but they really would be exceptions to the rule.
Tommy O | Email | Homepage | 02.20.06 - 1:40 am | #

My two cents on Weis and Hiben

I know this may have already been beaten to death, but here goes. After reading some of the articles and commentary on this issue it surprises me that CW has been with us for more than a year now, yet he still remains a mystery. I have such a different view of his reaction to Hiben's departure. Maybe we need to cut some slack here. Remember, after eight years of benign neglect, we now have a man who cares about Notre Dame, and I mean all aspects of Our Lady's University. He sees it as his mission to guide young men, both on and off the field.
I think we can all agree that his style is at least slightly more detail oriented than we've had in the previous eight years. Do you think his demands for excellence are limited to the playing fields? I think CW was more than disappointed in Hiben's decision. I think he was genuinely hurt. Something tells me Charlie is the type of coach who doesn't enjoy being ignorant about anything, either on the field or off. (And remember, there was a meeting with CW, Joey, and academic advisors just before Joey's announcement, and everything seemed to be fine.) Combining academics and athletics is not easy, and I'd bet CW knows a little bit about his players and their potential. Did we forget how overjoyed he was when speaking about the team's cumulative g.p.a. and academic progress? You would have thought we won a national title or something. If I were the father of a son who loved football, CW sounds like someone I'd like my son to play for.

Something tells me Charlie knew exactly how Joey was performing, both in the class room and on the field, and he felt he had the potential to excel at both. It's not something many can do, and he didn't want his son--uh, player--to sell himself short. I may be getting a bit too psychoanalytic or possibly cathartic here, but while reviewing this issue I got a strange since of deja vu. In this situation, CW seems more like a disappointed father than a disgruntled coach. "Com' on, son. I know you can do it. Finish what you start." Always pushing. " A 3.2 g.p.a....why not a 3.3? Five yards per carry...why not 5.9?" He will not let them settle. He will not let them say they can't when he knowns they can. However, he must accept it when they say they won't. Football isn't for everyone, but make no mistake about it, Joey Hiben had the ability to excel if he had the desire.

CW is not perfect, but he sets the bar high, and that's a good thing. We don't know if he or his players have what it takes to win championships at ND, but it's nice to have someone in charge who believes not only in the University but the professed goals of the student athletes when they chose to become a part of the ND family. He believes. Whether it be on the field or off, he believes. And after the past half a dozen years or so, that my friends is a good thing.
Kalc | Email | Homepage | 02.20.06 - 9:02 pm | #

As others have said, there is no way for an architecture major at Notre Dame to graduate without going to Rome. It just can't happen. The School of Architecture is not that large, and all of the third year faculty are in Rome - they do not have the staff who can just whip up an entire year of course work (The third year is entirely architecture coursework and the curriculum is crafted to follow the requirements for the 5 year accredited degree in architecture). I had two classmates who were in varsity sports, but both were at the top of the class, incredibly gifted, and neither were in varsity football. The mistake as I see it was that this kid came to ND specifically because PU did not offer architecture. Knowing that the University and the Athletic Department should have sat down and determined what that would really mean. Saying they'll make it work, and making it work are two distinctly different things.
AnArkie | Email | Homepage | 02.22.06 - 12:51 am | #

I'll agree with Derek on this one... Some members of the architecture faculty have a hubris about what they do in comparison to just about everything else on campus (ROTC, extracurriculars, sports etc.). It takes a unique individual to be able to do the varsity sports and architecture combo, but I'm sure that holds true for lots of majors on campus. It is truly up to the student as far as how much they can commit to either venture, but eventually you will be spread too thin and something will suffer. That's how I felt when I was in the ND architecture program and doing ROTC, playing in a campus band and being a terrible DJ at WVFI.
Maybe we're missing the point... isn't college about experiencing as much as possible while still being satisfied with how much you can accomplish?
Hiben should now have no regrets about leaving football. If he does, he made the wrong call.
Joe | Email | Homepage | 02.27.06 - 1:00 pm | #

" That's how I felt when I was in the ND architecture program and doing ROTC, playing in a campus band and being a terrible DJ at WVFI."

And a damn fine campus band it was Joe. Now, where did I put my Roadapples CD?...
AnArkie | Email | Homepage | 02.28.06 - 12:12 pm | #

Although this thread is about Charlie Weiss, Notre Dame academics and their relationship with athletics, I just want to agree 100% with the Roadapples being a damn fine band. A lot of people think they peaked with West Virginia Girl. You may think they peaked with their cover of Luka. However, you'd be wrong. Someday was hands down their best song. "Thats okay if you don't want me I don't need you anyway...at least that's what everyone tells me to say..."

I'm still trying to figure out how the guitarist was able to pick through the Em, C, G, D verse chords so quickly. Perhaps I'll put together a Roadapples tribute band and play everything on both the casette and the CD.

Yes, I am clearly insane. GO IRISH!
Gene | Email | Homepage | 03.09.06 - 3:34 pm | #