This is the United States, home of the free enterprise system and capitalism. Why, oh why, would Notre Dame seek to replace their NBC earnings and their promised BCS money year in year out now thanks to that restructuring in order to join a conference.

A cold day in hell will find the Irish in the Big Ten. There is no reason, period.
Heath | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 12:41 am | #

amen, brother
Jesus | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 2:26 am | #

With Kevin White, ALL things are possible.
Tnirshfan | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 7:24 am | #

A boycott of ND? I believe Michigan and other Big 10 schools tried that in the earlier part of this century and Rockne started the national ND road show as a response.
Tom | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 7:43 am | #

I just watched the 1989 Mich game on ESPN Classic a few days ago (the game with two second-half kickoff returns for TDs by Rocket).

As ND ran out the clock to win the game, Keith Jackson said, "At least Michigan still has something to play for after this loss -- the Big 10 Championship."

This is what I fear about conference affiliation: a consolation prize. Michigan is a high quality, high integrity opponent, with (by and large) a magnanimous, good humored fan base. I love playing them. But there's a case to made that the availability of the Big 10 Championship has caused them to be satisfied with two- and three-loss seasons.

It consisstently recruits the top athletes, and it is consistently rated in the top 5 or top 10 in preseason polls. Yet it's won only two AP national championships since WWII -- in 1948 and 1997 (split).

I'm NOT saying Michigan sucks. Far from it, and that is precisely the point. There's got to be a reason such a good team fails to reach the highest level of success, and I believe the Big 10 Championship is that reason.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 9:14 am | #

With a creative athletic director, I think it would be possible for ND to reverse the game. I mean, I think that it could perhaps persuade a number of teams to leave conferences for the chance to be independents. Many's the conference where perennial losers line up to get a payoff from the Floridas or Texases or So Cals. But if some of those schools with credible academic programs can be persuaded to leave conferences as a matter of self respect, it's possible a mini-movement could be generated. Many conferences are already so large that members don't play each other every year. Stranger things have happened.
Boiled, Broken Little Fishies | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 9:35 am | #

Tom is correct. The last time Michigan led a boycott of ND, which MSU and Purdue broke from first, it was the best thing that ever happened to ND. It started the Ramblers tradition and the only truly national fan base.

I can see Michigan dropping us, mainly out of fear, but tOSU has already said they would take the game, and PSU probably would too. Boycott over.

Also imagine the press, the Big 10 announces (a) it can't count and (b) it will refuse to play ND until ND joins their conference. The ridicule they would get would be enormous. Quite frankly, I think it would be good for the team since there would be more national road games, which would help with recruiting.
Andy | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 10:26 am | #

Hal,

While I realize your post was with good intention, it's a bit myopic.

The "national championship" as we know it today is a modern creation. Such a thing was important prior to the 1990s, but it was nothing compared to what it is now. And, in large part, a regional conference championship was embraced with as much, if not more, fervor as these things the newspapers and clubs gave away.

Whether that mindset has diluted the football landscape at schools like Michigan may be a legitimate question, but the answer is probably a simple "no."

As a sidenote, bolstering that point by saying Michigan has won only 2 national titles since the war is a bit trite. It's two more than most schools, and it might be equivalent to saying notre dame has only one title in the last 30 years (long before the advent of the modern day national championship).
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 10:27 am | #

Andy,

"Michigan dropping us, mainly out of fear"

I sincerely hope you didn't say that with a straight face. Simpleton comments like those are belittling and just downright homerific.

By your logic does that mean ND broke the agreement with Michigan by starting to schedule lighter competition early in the season as warmup for Michigan "out of fear?"
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 10:30 am | #

Ben

"As a sidenote, bolstering that point by saying Michigan has won only 2 national titles since the war is a bit trite. It's two more than most schools, and it might be equivalent to saying notre dame has only one title in the last 30 years (long before the advent of the modern day national championship)."

It would not be like saying that at all, given that that latter is factually inaccurate. Notre Dame has won two national championships in the last 30 years.

Furthermore, your distinction between pre-1990 and post-1990 national championships is absurd on its face and is supported by neither fact nor reason.
Mike | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 11:06 am | #

ND has absolutely no need to cave in to the desires of the Big 10. Period. They hold all the cards....

michigan or any other big ten team can do nothing but gain prestige by having the irish on their schedule, else they would have done otherwise a long time ago.

The big ten is not even THE conference, football-wise that it was once. Ohio state has had a power resurgence and is now enjoying success, but top-to-bottom, the conference lacks the prestige in football that it used to have.

If ND were to join a conference, logisitcally the big 10 makes sense, but other options could be made viable. But again.....the Irish need no such affiliation!!

Drew Sharp is simply attempting to stir a pot with no ingredients (again).
IRISHISME | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 11:27 am | #

Never...gonna...happen...
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 11:38 am | #

Sorry to double-post, but NDnation.com has a link to NJ.com that is reportind that Kamara, a 6'4" 205 WR from Hoboken and top flight prospect is planning on committing to ND later today at a press conference. Thank you Charlie.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 11:52 am | #

Mike,

Alright, I'll bite. The one national championship in 30 years was an error on my part... I meant one NC in 29 years. I was trying to make a point. I guess I got carried away with the rounding up.

Additionally, since when is support in fact or reason rewarded in your posts? For example, I'm starting to see a trend with your martyrdom -- Villainy, Pressure Drop, etc. I couldn't begin to guess the reason behind your fascination with hating every major midwestern power and playing the victim accordingly, nor will I try.

But in any event, Notre Dame would never qualify to be in the Big Ten from an academic standpoint anyway. Its graduate schools are lacking at best and there is next to no research funded by or coming out of South Bend.

Do you see how I, too, can make inflammatory remarks based loosely on truth and pawn them off as fact?

Here's another gem that I'm sure you and the homers will attack vehemently with anecdotal evidence (the secret weapon of Irish fans nationwide): Notre Dame needs the Big Ten more than the Big Ten needs Notre Dame. That's the way it's always been, and the way it always will be.

You should just enjoy your independence rather than respond to idiotic Drew Sharp articles with dramatic, self-important scenarios.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 12:03 pm | #

idiotic Drew Sharp articles

... is the crux of this whole thing. It's Drew Sharp! If you haven't had the misfortune to live in an area reached by his poison pen, trust me: dude does this all the time for any team that he thinks has fans that can be riled up. He exists only to antagonize.
Brian @ mgoblog | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 12:21 pm | #

Ben,

I am wondering what it is you are attempting to accomplish with all the pedantic rambling. If you do not like the sentiments here go somewhere else.

Simply offering up half cooked and obviously biased arguements will lead to nothing but wasted time and space. I found your comments about our Grad school quite entertaining though.

I am glad you are demonstrating your superior Big Ten Graduate school intellect (which I can only assume you come from) by vainly trying to sway the Notre Dame faithful to see your flawed point of view. Keep up the good work.

Cheers.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 12:23 pm | #

Ben,

You make the statement that ND needs the Big Ten more than the other way around, yet what is to back this up? Look at the success of the Big Ten outside of their conference, especially in Bowl Games. ND was actually hurt in overall power rankings last season due to the downward spiral of Michigan, MSU and Purdue, who did not live up to their pre-season expectations.

Heck, I'd like to see ND enter the ACC - now there is a football conference :>)
Mike | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 12:26 pm | #

Matt,

"Simply offering up half cooked and obviously biased arguements will lead to nothing but wasted time and space."

Sweet irony.


But I do see your point about going somewhere else if I don't like the sentiments. I just thought BGS was more than a homer board filled with reach-arounds and green kool-aid.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 12:28 pm | #

Mike,

Michigan was one of your only wins against a team with a winning record. I sincerely doubt that hurt your SOS.

When I made the comment than ND needs the B10 more, it wasn't really a quantitative thing. You could make the argument that the B10 doesn't need ND at all... and, therefore, ND needs the B10 only, like... .00001%. You could make the argument that scheduling major opponents in proximity saves financial burden, as well as transaction costs of always revamping home-home series, etc, etc.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 12:43 pm | #

Ben

If ND needs the B10 more, why did the B10 approach ND in 1999 to join and ND's Board of Trustees voted nay? The B10 would LOVE ND in the fold - don't fool yourself.
eddie | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 12:52 pm | #

Ben,

I hear what you're saying about the modern era vs. the old era and the value of regional vistories, but the notion of a national champ in football is hardly a 1990s-on invention. There's no doubt it's been around since the 40s and 50s, and you could make a case that it started in earnest when the AP began crowning teams in the 30s.

Regardless, I'm interested in why you think the appropriate response to my question is a simple no. It seems to me that a team as consistently talented as Michigan should be able to put it all together more often than they do. I often hear people at Michigan talk about the Rose Bowl and Big Ten Championships as if they're the real prize. That attitude, it seems to me, is an impediment to winning a NC.

Again, I am not trying to pick on Michigan here. The reason I note them by name is because it's such a good program, and I think that fact highlights just how hard it is to win a NC. Losing a little edge in motivation can mean the difference between good and great, and I think the focus on conference victories allows Mich. an out.

An interesting related point might be this: The Big Ten Championship often keeps marginal Michigan teams fighting hard, even after a few losses. Whereas a Notre Dame team in the same position might be more apt to give up, because once the NC's off the taable, it's got nothing but pride to play for.

Just one man's opinion, I suppose. But I think it's worth discussing.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 12:55 pm | #

Actually, you can't make the argument that ND needs the Big Ten .00001% because that number is larger than 0%
Skillz | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 1:02 pm | #

Eddie,

Your argument presupposes that ND can't make use of the Big Ten as a non-member.

Thus, your argument is fatally flawed because ND can, has and does, do this.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 1:13 pm | #

Hal, I see your point and it's a good one. And I think many of the Wolverine grumblers would agree with you... and they consistently use this point as one of contention with Coach Carr (e.g. he is too focused on winning the B10).

By simply saying "no", I just mean to illustrate the 30,000 foot overview we're failing to account for. And that is, kids today want to win a National Championship (BCS or whatever newfangled thing the media attaches itself to). Bottom line. No amount of preaching the importance of conference titles can undo that.

In fact, the upside, as you observed, is giving kids with an early loss something to keep their pride in tact.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 1:18 pm | #

The rather simple, and as yet not wholly mentioned fact, is that the Big Ten would love nothing more than to have The University of Notre Dame join its conference. The monetary influx would be incredible for the Big Ten, though it would likely hurt ND, even if it did keep its NBC contract.

The main evidence for this is that the Big Ten has been attempting to get a 12th member ever since Penn St. joined, and yet they haven't taken anyone. Why? While all the other major conferences are getting 12 members so they can move to a East/West or North/South format and have a Championship game that would add a few extra million dollars a year, the Big Ten keeps dragging its feet because the perfect financial member would be Notre Dame. I admit, there is no other major program that would fit in better, and their only other option would be to take some MAC team, but even then the financial windfall would be tremendous. Yet the Big Ten is dragging its feet because it desperately needs Notre Dame, a move that would easily give the Big Ten the most powerful football conference in the land, with 4 of the most historic and rabid fan-based programs in UM, Penn St., tOSU, and ND, not to mention MSU, Iowa, and Minnesota.

The Big Ten wants, and needs, Notre Dame far more than ND needs it, as we just rejected them not too long ago.

Sorry for the long post, but side note: If ND hypthetically did join the Big Ten, how would they break up the conference? Which teams would go where? Its not gonna happen, but its fun to think about all the same. Discuss amongst yourselves.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 1:21 pm | #

Brad, interesting post (albeit without any facts), there's just one primary flaw I see with this.

ND essentially plays a Big Ten schedule right now! You're presuming the same thing Eddie was... that ND doesn't "use" the Big Ten as a non-member. They do! THAT is why they "need" the Big Ten.

And the whole money thing isn't as important as you'd like to think. The conference income that is divided is no slouch... and if Fox picks up the Big Ten contract (which is in the works), everybody gets (read: stays) rich. Michigan has done just fine with its affilitation -- arguably more profitable than notre dame (this will draw the obligatory "ND doesn't publish its earnings, so it must make more" baseless rhetoric).

Point being, the Big Ten is doing just fine without ND... and there is a large faction that does not want a divisional, conference title game system that would require a 12th team.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 1:28 pm | #

2 ACC teams, 4 big 10 teams, 3 PAC 10 teams...

we like to call it a "national schedual"

and you can call the relationahip with the Big Ten 'mutually beneficial'
ND does not "use" the Big Ten.

The artical was garbage journalism and the guys at BGS grabbed it and exposed the stupidity of it on a football fan bolg.

ND alumni would neve stand for joining a conference if it were at all avoidable, and from the looks of things the football programe will have no problem operating as an independent for decades to come.
J-PL | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 1:48 pm | #

Darryl Royal is Texas' Knute Rockne?

Please.

There can be only one.

Oh, and nice post, mister.
Domer | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 1:57 pm | #

1) First off, no body said the Big Ten isn't doing fine. Of course the are, they're a great conference. I'm saying the Big Ten wants ND to improve its conference. Want a fact? They tried to get us to join. Tada. And yeah, there is a large faction that doesn't want a divisional title. Its called Purdue. Those bastards never have to play anyone but the lowlifes. What's with that?

2) Playing three Big Ten teams a year (four this year with our 10 year cycle of playing Penn St. coming back) does not make ND have a Big Ten schedule. Notre Dame typically plays three Big East teams a year (Pitt, Syracuse, BC back before they switched). Does that make us have a Big East schedule? No. Hey, we play three Pac Ten teams this year (UCLA,USC,Stanford). Is that a Pac Ten schedule?

We play all over the country. I don't see any Big Ten teams scheduling UCLA, USC, FSU, ACC teams, Okla. a few years ago. And that's fine, their scheduling is hard enough without adding big-boys from other conferences (with the exeption of tOSUvTexas last year, I applaud that....Big Ten never does that). ND has its own, original, independent schedule. Take away the Big Ten and we'll have West Virg., Va. Tech, Ok and Ok St, and a few Texas teams lining up to fill the void. So no, we don't need the Big Ten. Go ahead and boycott us. I'm sure ND can use some of that NBC money to charter a flight down there, so don't whine about traveling expenses.

3) Notre Dame does not use the Big Ten as a 'non-member', because Notre Dame does not receive any income from the conference's bowl income. When ND doesn't go to a bowl game like a Big Ten team, its not like the Big Ten throws us a couple million to be nice. We get bupkus, and that's fine. That comes with being an independent. But if you want to complain that we're a member/non-member of the Big Ten, do it for every other conference as well.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 2:08 pm | #

Ben

You presuppose that the benefits are equal. If ND joined the B10 along with it comes a huge brandname, maybe a share of the NBC contract, and probably a conference championship. If B10 schools don't play ND, ND can go out and schedule any number of schools equivalent to PU and MSU and I'm sure could find 1 Mich-quality program to play every year (Miami anyone?).

The real benefits ND faculty were looking at in 1999 when considering conference membership (which they overwhelmingly voted for) had to do with academics - not football and not football money. From a football standpoint the big winner of ND joining the B!0 is the B10.
eddie | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 2:13 pm | #

It can hardly be argued that ND essentially plays a Big Ten schedule when only three out of eleven regular season games last year were against Big Ten teams (4/12 counting tOSU in the Fiesta).
Making the argument that we play a Big Ten schedule is absurd as saying that we play a Pac-10 schedule (three games last season). Furthermore, ND is moving in the direction of scheduling three Big East teams a year. Losing Big Ten opponents would certainly not be beneficial to ND, but it would undoubtedly hurt the Big Ten more.
Manor Man | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 2:15 pm | #

Listen. I'm not claiming the Big Ten wouldn't benefit by having ND in the conference. It would truly make a sound football marriage.

It's only when domers go off on ill-informed diatribes about how ND doesn't need the Big Ten and how desperately the Big Ten wants ND ("nd holds all the cards" and that kind of self-serving gibberish) that I have to throw my two cents in.

ND needs the Big Ten. If you downplay the importance (financially, and otherwise) of playing four major BCS opponents on an established schedule, within a bus ride, you're not being fair to the way college football works.

Simultaneously, the Big Ten would like to toot its horn by including ND as a major football school into its collection.

Saying anything more than that is just biased speculation.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 2:31 pm | #

They were all excellent points by Mike in his post. Drew Sharp's suggestion that the Big Ten boycott ND is ludicrous. Why would Michigan State, for example, not want to play Notre Dame? MSU has done quite well against the Irish during the Davieham tenure and even beat the Irish last year. (Of course, we trust that Charlie will figure out a way to "git 'er done" this season against MSU.)
Norm | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 2:40 pm | #

Ben

I agree they both need each other - however - it seems in the last 20 years ND does have a distinct bargaining advantage with the B10. It cerainly is great that ND typically plays 3 B10 schools every year (not four - the coming series with Penn State does not happen every year). But it is simply not accurate to infer that these games could not be replaced with games against other BCS schools. The "within a bus ride" part is great - but not essential to filling stadiums. See the original post.
eddie | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 2:54 pm | #

As I remember it, wasn't the main reason for ND's thinking about joining the Big Ten something about the libraries and interenet databases the Big Ten has? Something like that, which sounds right because I know they do have incredible facilities in those regards.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 3:03 pm | #

Brad, that's right--the push on the ND side to join the Big10+1 was from the faculty for the academic resources. Let's face it--big state schools have the ability to stockpile tons of resources and documents.

On the ND side, it had *nothing* to do with athletics, and everything to do with academic resources.
Oda Saburo | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 5:19 pm | #

Big ten refusing to play Notre Dame? I guess that would be nothing new right? LOL
NDDL04 | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 5:29 pm | #

"who needs who?" ... who cares? he most interesting point was that while many like to chortle about nd, its reputation, etc, the pricing (ransoming?) of tix is far more telling than whatever rhetoric gets spewed.
yz | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 7:03 pm | #

I got to this post late, but I want to refer back to two of the earlier comments. First, to Hal, regarding the "magnanimous" fans at UofM: I attended the ND v. Michigan game three years ago when Michigan beat ND 38-0. (I live just 40 miles from A2). I have NEVER been so abused by "magnanimous" fans as I was that day. "Before, during, and after the game." I had beer thrown on me, I was spit at, I was jeered with plenty of anti-Catholic stuff thrown in for good measure. The T-Shirts being sold...well, doesn't belong in sports anywhere, anytime. There IS a reason why the Big 10 feels compelled to air those commercials about sportsmanship because their fan base clearly lacks any notion. I determined that despite my proximity, I would never attend a game at the U of M again, and I have not. This is not to say that some ND fans don't engage in bad behavior, I am sure some do. But, I have been to so many games at ND as a student and as an alum, I honestly believe that this is just not the way things are at ND. And, I hate to go on, but honestly no institution can control what the fans or even students do during a game. BUT, U of M crossed the line when between the 3rd and 4th quarter the Michigan cheerleaders got into the act by performing a jeering, mocking Irish Jig in front of the ND student section. I talked to one of the ND cheerleaders after the game and asked her if she had seen what I had seen and whether, if a ND cheerleading squad had done that what the repercussions would have been. She, quite appropriately, told me that had they engaged in any behavior such as that they would be kicked of the team. She also said, "That was the least of what we had to endure today." As the ND band lined up near the end zone they were pelted from on high with full bottles of water, which had to hurt coming down from row 60 or above. The whole thing was absolutely disgraceful.
As for Kevin White, I had the opportunity to speak with him about that specific game. He told me the athletic department had received numerous complaints after that game and that the University was considering dropping Michigan from our schedule due to these factors, much the same way we dropped Miami for their boorish behavior.
Personally, I would never want ND associated with the Big 10 via conference affiliation.
NDMD | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 9:07 pm | #

Jez guys...are you all overlooking the obvious? ND is in a conference: The Mighty NBC.

If that ever ended, the debate would resume. Until then Our Lady remains gilded based on the largess of our conference patron. No NBC, ND to ACC or Big 14 or 16: whatever.

By the way: pedantic - Honorary Word of the Week and properly use none-the-less.

Bravo.
Yago | Email | Homepage | 05.10.06 - 9:54 pm | #

NDMD,

I wouldn't be too shocked by what you recount at Michigan. On the whole, my experiences with Michigan fans have been quite good, but I've heard horror stories. I had a good friend (and avid Michigan fan) who worked with the IU football team in college, and went up to a game at UM. While there, he said he and another friend were constantly berated, had food and condoments thrown on them, along with a few beers (some stadium anomolies are universal, hence not anomolies). All this time they were being berated about how bad IU sucks. I mean, every IU student KNOWS IU football sucks, does it really need to be pointed out? Who does that?

Lastly, though, I would like to remind you of the sweet revenge ND got by beating Michigan at Ann Arbor (whore) this year. I was there and can happily say that most every ND fan there was respectful after the game with the exception of a few seniors, who I assume were still pissed about the last time they were there. I could tell by their constant yells of "I've sat through 3 years of shit and now we're gonna get our come-uppins" and "I'm not gonna quiet down". All I can say it at least there friends were attempting to make them be gracious.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 8:23 am | #

P.S. The other great part about that trip was noticing the UM shirts that claim like 14 national titles or some shit. What is with that, trying to overcompensate for the ND game?
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 8:24 am | #

Clearly ND does not need the B10 and the B10 does not need ND. However, the current situation is tenable. ND gets some good games and pseudo-rivalries and the B10 gets some television coverage it might not normally get. If the B10 were to suddenly boycott ND, ND would get other games elsewhere. And the B10 would do the same.

WRT the B10 wanting to add a 12th team to qualify for a championship game, that poster has no idea about B10 football. There will never be a B10 championship football game....so long as either Michigan or OSU does not receive the death penalty from the NCAA.
leon | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 9:17 am | #

Actually leon, this poster DOES know what he's talking about. I don't just make this shit up. I went to a Big Ten school, I know quite a few athletic administration folks, and I've talked to more than a few Big Ten coaches. Look, after the Big 12 and SEC went to the 12 team, championship format it has been a financial blessing for them. So what happened? The ACC went out and did the same damn thing, and at the time (in case you don't remember) the Big Ten went out and tried to grab up Notre Dame. It didn't work, and since there isn't a valid candidate to join the Big Ten currently that would really fit other than ND, the Big Ten is more than happy to just sit and wait until one does come along. Now, are they going to switch to a 12 team format next year? No way. But mark my words, as soon as a viable candidate does emerge (such as, lets say Pittsburg leaving the Big East or something) they WILL snatch them up and move to a 12 team format. It makes more money. The ONLY issues will be keeping division rivalries and finding a fitting team.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 9:26 am | #

NDMD,

Clearly you got to this post late. You managed to erase the progress made in a conversation about conference ties relating to the modern day college football landscape with the same unfounded, anecdotal, biased testimony that most people loathe.

Yes, UM has bad fans. Yes, ND has bad fans -- whether you care to admit it or not. Every team does. It's a fact. What doesn't count, though, is your personal stories about how poorly you were treated.

Would it make a difference if I retyped your story and just switched the names of the schools? Do you understand how that kind of thing stalls a conversation and merely fuels vapid homers into self-congratulatory games of "See how great my team is and how yours is the SUXORZ?"

Slogan:

"Anecdotes. Try something else."
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 9:52 am | #

Brad,

I'm happy for you that you talk to Terry Hoeppner. But he doesn't get to make decisions for the Big Ten.

I'm not even sure Indiana gets a vote.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 9:55 am | #

Ben,

A) You're a dumbass. I graduated before Hoeppner even got there. I wasn't even referring to IU coaches. They don't count. I went there, trust me, I know how bad they suck. Yet literally every person I know has gone to a Big Ten school. All of 'em. So I am quite familiar with Big Ten football. I noticed you didn't disagree with my assessment of the Big Ten's plans for future expansion.

B) For repetition's sake, I went there. I know they don't get a vote. I know how bad they suck.

C) NDMD's point wasn't anecdotal evidence of how fans treat others. You would have to be completely retarded to believe 'mine fans are better than your's at all times'. In my response you'll notice I gave an example of the opposite. His point refered to the treatment the cheerleaders did with the jig. That shit would never fly at ND, and you'd be suprised how often things of that nature are tolerated by the universities we play, with the general hatred and vitriol ND experiences from opponents (PU). I am not talking about fans, but actual institution control issues with regards to sportsmanship.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 11:09 am | #

Brad,

A.) You're the dumbass for being self-important by attempting to name drop, and, more importantly, not being able to take a joke.

B.) No response.

C.) "That shit would never fly at ND." Spare me the holier-than-thou routine. Regardless of the comment being directed toward institutional control elements, it's still anecdotal. There's no objective proof when weighted against other, similar stories.

I bet a dime to your dollar I can find someone to say the same or similar things about ND... on all fronts. Hell, I have about 20 stories of my own.

So back to my original point: this kind of thing stalls legitimate conversation and serves only to flame fans.

But, hey, if that's your style, I can't stop you.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 12:21 pm | #

Ben (this is actually quite fun),

A) It was a half-hearted "dumbass". I did take the joke, hence the repetition element of the fact that IU sucks. I was merely making light of the fact that I stated I 'went' to IU. Past tense, and as such that means I no longer am there. Seeing as this was Terry's first year on the job, that means he wasn't even the coach when I went there.

B) I didn't name drop. Go ahead and find one in my post. I was merely stating, as leon seemed to not believe, that I am quite familiar with Big Ten football. The fact that I know various people from a variety of Big Ten schools and athletic programs merely serves to justify that I'm not some ND fanatic that thinks he knows everything. I don't. I am familiar with the expansion concept, though. Anyone who isn't, it could be said, is unfamiliar with Big Ten football. That's all I said.

C) I really think it wouldn't fly at ND. If some cheerleaders, band members, what-have-you were taunting another team there would be consequences. Would they be kicked out of school or something? Of course not, but the athletic department would not take kindly to it. ND has had to deal with such things before, from the Stanford band incident which resulted in banning them, BC trashing our visitors' locker room, and the endless stream of whole teams digging up our turf (large amounts), etc.

I'm not naive. I know these types of actions are common for all teams. Some of them actually take on a form of a tradition, and some are quite funny. Its just that Notre Dame's administration doesn't seem to think so.

P.S. I'd love to hear a good story or 20, no one is posting on this dead link anyway.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 1:21 pm | #

Brad,

If I was harsh, I didn't mean to be. I was light-heartedly calling you a dumbass as well.

Point about IU and your affiliation taken.

I have no doubt that ND has had to deal with such things in the past. What I disagree with, though, is the implication (through anecdotal evidence) that other schools haven't had to or, in some way, have dealt with such situations with less integrity.

As for my stories? Well, I won't recreate them all here... but let's just say a few friends and I were serenaded by the Fighting Irish marching band as we left the stadium a few years ago... they sang us the "adult" version of Hail to the Victors.

While I didn't necessarily find that to be a horrible offense, it's certainly an "institutional" action that was performed with women and children everywhere.

The others involve obligatory stuff like throwing things and stealing beer... the stuff that happens to some degree at most tailgates.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 3:23 pm | #

I don't think it counts as a tailgate unless someone does steal beer...preferably someone around the age of 14,15. God Bless America.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 3:27 pm | #

A 14-15 year old I wouldn't mind turning a blind eye.

The drunken frat-boy wannabes wearing collar-popped shirts and hemp necklaces... now THAT I mind.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 3:31 pm | #

Hi Ben,
You and your friends must be pretty important people to have the ENTIRE Notre Dame Marching Band "serenade" you with an adult version of "Hail to the Victors". Wow, I am impressed! I am also extremely dubious. And, my apologies for destroying the flow of the post, though it seems to have survived for a while of it's own accord despite my interruption. As for the "anecdotal" claims of Michigan cheerleaders actions, I am sure you would enjoy the video evidence.
NDMD | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 5:39 pm | #

Hi NDMD,

It was actually only about ten of them. One of them was playing the tune with his horn while the others sang. I apologize if you took my post to mean, literally, the entire band. Unintentional misrepresentation on my part.

And, even if you have video evidence, the cheerleader thing is still anecdotal. I'm not trying to be pejorative or a dick, but I suggest you look the word up.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 6:21 pm | #

Hi Ben,
Thanks for your reply. Here's what I think: College sports is by definition "sport" involving young people 18-22 years old. We sometimes forget that and become too overly competitive. It should be fun. I don't want to become some blind fanatic, and if I came off that way, I apologize. I think that all the great rivalries in college sports revolve around the similarities between programs such as Michigan and Notre Dame. That having been said, as an alum, I am obviously biased, but I hope I am not blind. Interestingly, the whole experience at the Michigan game three years ago occured while I was walking around with my son, a graduate of Michigan, who was wearing his "colors". But, when I took him to a game at ND, he had some people in his face, too.
I would like it if we could have a friendly rivarly and all shake hands when all is done, regardless of outcome.
I took your advice and looked up the word "anecdote". According to Websters: anecdote=A short, often oral, interesting or humorous account of a real or fictitious incident.
Bottom line, I could deal with the fans, but when the cheerleaders did what they did, I felt a line was crossed. I apologize for whatever you may have experienced while at Notre Dame. That shouldn't have happened.
NDMD | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 7:21 pm | #

NDMD,

Points taken, and agreed with in total.

For the most part, my UM and ND friends have a very friendly and healthy rivalry. I think it's great that you and your son find a common ground when the two teams go to war. In my humble opinion, that's a true testament to the quality of both schools.

And, I might have thought you were a "blind fanatic"... but after this last post, I realize that's not true.

Now let's get together on something. Say, for instance... how much we hate Ohio State? :)
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 11:21 pm | #

Oh, and I forgot about the "anecdote" thing. My point was that "anecdotal" doesn't necessarily mean something is untrue. I never doubted your cheerleader story... anecdotal means that kind of thing is an impossible way to scientifically (or even pragmatically) make an argument or deal with an issue.

It is "anecdotal" evidence.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.11.06 - 11:23 pm | #

Thanks, Ben, for your kind words. Another anecdote, but I wasn't impressed by the behavior of the tOSU fans when I was at the Fiesta Bowl, so count me in. In any event, born and raised in Michigan, almost went to U of M, (no offense, but I am very, very happy with my choice to attend ND) so my disdain for tOSU comes naturally.
NDMD | Email | Homepage | 05.12.06 - 12:02 am | #

Bar none, the worst horror stories I have ever heard about fan behavior/tailgating has come from folks who have been abused by tOSU fans. I talked to one guy who literally got hit in the head with a beer bottle while driving his car with the windows down because he had Michigan plates on his car. He wasn't even there for the game. That's insane.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.12.06 - 8:26 am | #

Brad,

That's patently absurd.

The worst stories I have heard come from Tosu as well... and not all of them from the UM game!

I've heard of fans going so far as to pissing in bottles and then throwing them into groups of opposing fans (with the top off). Barbaric.

NDMD - I have no doubt you're happy with your decision... and I'm sure you'll take no offense when I say that I'm happy with mine as well. :)
Ben | Email | Homepage | 05.12.06 - 10:56 am | #

I think just about the nastiest thing I've heard of was the whole issue with tOSU fans shitting in their coolers and leaving it at the tailgate after the Texas game. I mean, leaving a cooler of shit at an opponents tailgate is wrong, but leaving Icy Poo at your own stadium? Who does that?
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.12.06 - 11:28 am | #

I wish Zippy would bless us w/his presence so he could explain that one to us.
scott | Email | Homepage | 05.12.06 - 1:43 pm | #

Having sat in the Notre Dame section right next to the student section last year, I can tell you first hand that the majority of the ND students, during pauses in the game action, turned toward and verbally (and in some cases physically) taunted the Michigan student section all day in 80-90 degree heat. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again. I don't agree one bit with what happened at last year's game.... but I absolutely understand that people can take only so much pompous arrogance before they snap and the proverbially $#it hits the fan. The Notre Dame students around me (150 or so) were foul-mouthed, obnoxious, arrogant, chest-pounding, drunken fools who fought amongst themselves as loudly and as often as they taunted others. I had older ND fans (alumni perhaps?) apologizing all over the place for the things my 5-year old son had to hear and witness that day. And, as it would happen, I was forced to return the favor later when the bottles started flying in their direction because of the actions of others. The point is this. Every fan base has the "creepy Uncle Lou" fans... the one's that are obnoxious when drunk, make your skin crawl, embarass you publicly... the ones you wish you could make disappear from the family. Yes, even you ND.

The problem is the holier-than-thou "THAT WOULD NEVER FLY HERE!" attitude while wagging a corrective finger in the face of one who would DARE insinuate such maliciousness and lies. But, from personal experience, that's absolute crap, and you know it's crap. It happens everywhere (obviously in some places **cough cough** Columbus **cough cough** more notably and severely than other places) but it happens everywhere.

And for the record, that crap ND fans experienced DIDN'T fly but once in Ann Arbor. The following week, cameras were put into the stadium pointing directly at the student section. Their only purpose was and is to catch those people throwing things and (1) remove them from the Stadium and (2) revoke their season tickets (if applicable).
Jon | Email | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 1:51 pm | #

Jon,

You're about a week late on this conversation, but for the record when I said "that shit won't fly here" I was refering to administrative control over things related to the school such as cheerleaders mocking fans' ethnicity, the band, etc. I know all fans have good and bad moments. If you look far above I actually commented on that regarding my own abhorence of the actions of some students at the UM game last year.

Fans get drunk and become obnoctious, everyone knows that and neither I (nor anyone else) was attempting to dispute that. We were only refering to administratively controlled actions that are offensive, like when BC trashed ND's visitor lockerroom, etc. Those things can at least be rectified.

While I do believe that ND fans take pride in being polite to opposing fans, I am not sure this truly applies to students or 20 somethin's. I think ND fans feel this way because at most ND games you'll find a disproportionately large amount of families, grandparents, etc., who have traveled 15 some hours to go to the game. On the other hand, if you get enough Irish in one place, copious amounts of drinking will happen, along with the unpleasantries that often follow.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.16.06 - 3:33 pm | #

Brad,

The NCAA now sanctions more games regardless of size of conference. At the time of the ND to B10 discussions, this was known to be coming. Also, I assumed you understood how CFB works being a ND fan...specifically how ND works NBC. The entire ND to B10 farce was only to stir interest in a contract with NBC. NBC's interest in ND was waning and they were prepared to offer significantly less. You can figure out the rest.

As far as your understanding of the B10, it is impossible for it to be as educated as mine. Unless of course you are an AD at either UM or OSU. Let me say this again, it will never happen unless UM or OSU receive the death penalty. You can pretend the USC v ND rivalry is the most "nationally" viewed game. Whatever, it was interesting twice in 20 years. But there is simply no way Gene Smith and Bill Martin will allow this happen. And neither will the presidents as the net result of the proceeds from the Championship versus the diminshed revenue from the "Game".
leon | Email | Homepage | 05.21.06 - 11:06 pm | #

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