When ND's football record is consistently good or great, talk of keeping football independence exists.

All of a sudden when the Irish fortunes on the gridiron become less than expected, conference talk arises.

Strange, huh?????
It is a conference-rumor cycle that has gone on for years. It won't change.
John B. | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 1:02 pm | #

I for one hate the "no heavyweights" idea. I would gladly travel to Jax, Dallas, Houtston to see some real competition, but Baylor and TCU ain't cutting it. Now, say, K-State at Arrowhead, (The other) scUM at Pro Player/Joe Robbie, A decent SEC school in N'Awlins, that'd be the route to go. I'm sure everyone has their own opinions on this (god knows they do at NDN), but I think part of the appeal of ND is being able to play any decent school in the country and at least play them tough. Sort of like in EA's NCAA FB when you can sort your schedule out and play all the hardest teams at any place you want ot play them. ND can literally do that, sometimes on as short a one season's notice. there isn't a school in the country who wouldn't move heaven and earth to get us on the schedule (see: Nevada, SDSU) so I don't see how we'd fail to benefit from this. Imagine telling a texas recruit that we'd be playing TAMU at Reliant stadium during his time at ND. Or telling a florida recruit that the Gators would be playing us at the Gator bowl or Ray-Jay in tampa. Add that to charlie's skill at recruiting, and we'd have 5-stars lining up to play for us.
Wooderson | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 1:07 pm | #

I agree wooderson, part of the mystique of ND is that we play a tough schedule, many times the one of the toughest in the land....quality opponents legitimize us being back, and the softening of the schedule will bite us in the butt sometime in the future....I would rather win the National Championship 5 of CW's 10 years with tough opponents than be in the NC game more with a cup cake schedule....that is part of the reason many of us hate Miami/FSU/USC/OK and all of their "national championships", because they play division 2 schools or a couple of knitting schools for the blind and elderly rather than play quality teams!
david | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 1:23 pm | #

part of the mystique of ND is that we play a tough schedule ...

Historically, I don't think that's true. If you look back to the days of Rockne, Leahy, and Parseghian, I think you'll find that ND played 2 or 3 excellent teams and 8 or 9 poor to mediocre teams during those coaches' tenure. Holtz had to play against some ludicrously fierce competition, but there's plenty of precedent for playing only a few elite teams each year.
Joe Magarac | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 1:47 pm | #

What's with the jump to the conculsion that "no hevyweights in our extra game" = we're going to start scheduling all I-AA and directional teams? There are lots of respectable teams out there that aren't heavyweights, teams that wouldn't detract from our SoS if added.

Also I imagine there's some alterior motive in that move. It'll take a lot more wrangling to get a heavyweight to agree to the neutral site games than it would a team who doesn't get as much exposure in the media. Scheduling a middleweight makes a lot more business sense; it'll be a compelling game to watch but ND can still dictate the terms of the deal.
Tom | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 1:53 pm | #

But Tom, who really wants to watch ND-TCU besides people in Ft. Worth or ND fans? ND-Oregon would be far more nationally important, and personally I think we could take them. Va. Tech would love a chance to play us, and again I think we'd be able to take them. Unfortunately we did play a bunch of bodybag games during my tenure, ie, rutgers, temple, kansas. we need to actively search out one huge game that gets people talking like USC did this year. Back in the holtz days, yes we had a tough sched, but we had UM, USC, PSU, Tenn, and a big time bowl opponent usually in those years, and we were consistently top 5. We may be "back" under weis, but we need to prove peoplethat we can kick ass and take names anytime, any place.
Wooderson | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 2:45 pm | #

1) Keep in mind that just because we won't be scheduling tOSU at a game in Cleveland doesn't mean we play crap teams. There are a lot of teams out there, such as TCU noted above, that while appearing as a small school ranked #11 at the end of this year. The Boise State's, Texas Techs, are good solid programs that could provide excellent competitors because as growing programs they'd love to get a matchup on national TV vs. ND, as well as the cash to upgrade their program.

2) Also noted above, just because we have this one game a year doesn't mean we won't continue to make Home-Away agreements with Penn St., Tenn., FSU, Okla. like we have in the past few years. It's much easier to set up a mediocre/growing school like those mentioned (Boise State, etc.) because their programs would make more playing at a neutral site where they could pack in 80,000 fans, similar to how ND plays Navy all over the place rather than Annapolis.

The 'heavyweights' aren't going to be as willing to schedule a 1 game series as everything gets scheduled in evens, it would throw them off. Also, they already have huge stadiums and have nothing to gain from, say, UF going to play in the Miami Dolphins stadium versus ND. In fact, it would likely be a large DISadvantage for them as it allows more ND fans an opportunity and hometown folks who dislike UF. It's much easier (and profitable) to set up 2 and 4 game series because that means roughly 200k to 400k tickets sold.


I don't think we should be too suprised or upset by any of this. It would have been nice if White could have said what he did more delicately though, or at least explain Notre Dame's position better to the public.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 2:53 pm | #

I'm with Brad re: White's indelicate terminology. He has a way with words like Ted Kennedy has a way with bridges.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 3:59 pm | #

I'm glad Brad brought up the points he did. TCU isn't exactly a punching bag in football. Baylor would be disappointing and I certainly don't want to see ND load up on directional U's, but there are plenty of programs that can provide a quality opponent without having to play a twelve game slate full of top 25 teams. There is also the point that winning NC's is what we, as the fans, expect. All it takes is one loss and you're basically toast for the BCS championship, so scheduling some mid-level programs makes sense.
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 6:06 pm | #

I'm very uninterested in scheduling outside the BCS conferences (or low-level BCS schools for that matter). There are some "good" programs like TCU and Boise St. in non-BCS conferences, but when matched up against powerful BCS opponents like ourselves they simply cannot compete. In addition, we gain absolutely nothing by beating Boise St. or TCU or Utah. They however get a national game against the marquee name in college football, and I don't even want to discuss what happens if we lose or even win a poorly played game. And the good coaches at these schools usually leave for greener pastures, something that we cannot predict when setting up these games 5-10 years in advance.

If we're going to barnstorm, use those games to play mid-level BCS programs or to honor our 3-game "commitment" to the Big East. Schedule Texas A&M in Dallas, Rutgers in the Meadowlands, or USF in Orlando.

And regarding the barnstorming, does anyone know the terms KW is seeking? It sounds like he plans on using the game as a de facto home game where we take home the entire gate. Obviously no heavyweights would agree to this, but a school like Baylor or TCU might accept such terms just for the chance to play ND. I'd rather see us go 50/50 on the gate and get a quality opponent or even drop a home/barnstorming game to make room for a home-and-home series against a quality opponent.

ND can schedule 3-4 intelligently spaced "big" games a year and still win the National Championship. We hold ourselves to a higher standard in nearly every other aspect of the game, so why should our schedule be any different?
Gizmo | Email | Homepage | 05.19.06 - 11:54 pm | #

If we play TCU, the country is mildly amused, but probably won't even watch the game. TCU would get psyched up like crazy for the game, while our players wouldn't be as pumped as, say, a game against Florida. Depending on the luck of that day and big plays, TCU could possibly beat us.

We would gain no national respect for beating TCU, and would lose most of it for losing to them.

I would rather play a hard-hitting big guy than a hard-hitting little guy, because the benefits are proportional to the risks.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 05.20.06 - 1:30 am | #

As long as the universe is run by the Conferences, ND will continue to be pressured to join one and vanish into the mists.

Away Home Games could be used to begin to wean future Independents away from the conferences. Smarter minds than mine can figure this out. But I think I would look at the last of the Independents, incl Penn State, Rutgers, and Florida State for these Away Home Games. If the Irish can help split name teams off from the conferences, with a promise of future schedules with ND, the universe can change. If teams can become conference members, they can become independents as well.

Living in Omaha, it's abundantly clear that Nebraska pays little penalty for playing Troy State, McNeese State, etc year in and out. ND scheduling MID level schools makes sense.
Boiled, Broken Little Fishies | Email | Homepage | 05.20.06 - 10:57 am | #

I dont think our schedule is going to be watered down by any means. Last I checked, in the upcoming years we still have USC, Michigan, Penn State on the schedule as well as games against traditional bowl teams such as UCLA, Purdue, Georgia Tech. Also, do not forget that in the 4 (or 5?) years we have Oklahoma tentatively on the schedule.

I think a schedule of USC, Michigan, Penn St., Purdue, Michigan St., Stanford, Navy, Army, and 4 other middleweights is still a solid schedule. Just as tough as you see from any conference school.
Jason | Email | Homepage | 05.20.06 - 11:36 am | #

Gizmo,

In reference to what ND has to win by playing teams like TCU, they have a few. One, a W. On a 12 game schedule this cannot be denigrated to some worthless game. Wins are needed and teams like TCU finish in the Top 25 with 11-1 records, which vastly helps out ND's strength of schedule, due to the fact that even in a good year only 1-2 teams ND plays will finish with a record like that. Secondly, and more importantly, people WILL watch the game. It gives an opportunity for old ND fans to reunite with the team by taking their kids in Omaha, etc. out to see the Irish. ND is all about family, and games like this will help keep that fan base a national fan base, boosting fan support for the future as well as exposing young would-be recruits to the Irish. These are important reasons to fight for such a game, to 'raise her glory' and 'send our Her name' and what have you.



Lastly, while I commented earlier that I didn't think we could get the 'biggies' to agree to such a neutral match-up, I am willing to bet it would be rather difficult to get Mid-level BCS teams as well. If you think about it, by definition a mid-level is looking to make a big play in the conference, and playing a team like ND just doesn't help when they have, says, Georgia, LSU, Auburn and UF to worry about. It doesn't help them enough to make it worthwhile, they have enough to worry about without the potential loss to ND on a national stage. It'd make much more sense for them to schedule ND for 2-4 years to really get a long-term national exposure out of the deal. The teams that would jump at this opportunity are BCS conference bottom-feeders such as Baylor, Vandy, Indiana. And what good would it do us to play a 4-8 Vandy team on a national stage? It looks much better to give a 11-1 Utah or TCU or even Fresno St. a shot, if only in the public's view that ND is giving a team a shot.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 05.20.06 - 11:39 am | #

If Georgia has contacted us and is willing to split the Georgia dome 50/50, there is no excuse in the world not to accept.

The historic significance of playing the most xenophobic football program is yooge.

Besides, if we don't take them up on such an offer, their folks can rightly claim we were scared.
Ed | Email | Homepage | 05.20.06 - 6:46 pm | #

Brad,

Of course we get a win by playing the teams you mentioned. And in the event that TCU or Utah or Fresno St. has a good record we'll have a win against a ranked opponent. But these teams build their records by playing in conferences with less talent and people know this. Strength of schedule is no longer a BCS component and thus the opinion of pollsters matters. UGA did not get any credit for beating Boise St. last year and USC's win over Fresno St. was seen as a near slip-up, not an impressive win. These schools are not in BCS conferences and are viewed as lesser teams. We gain very little more than a win from beating them and have even more to lose. Better situations exist for ND.

Yes, people will certainly watch the game. I along with all Notre Dame fans will watch the game. But the marginal college football fan will not. If we schedule a decent or good BCS opponent more people will watch the game and ND improves its marketability (which is already sky-high to begin with). We would reach more fans and more recruits and give ourselves additional leverage in the college football world. If we're talking about the neutral site games we will playing these games regardless of the opponent and the ND family will attend regardless as well. If we're talking about dumping a one-time home game (Nevada/SDSU/Duke for example) to add a good series like UGA the national press we would get for that series and the exposure we would get in Georgia is reason enough to do so.

I'm not advocating a ridiculous schedule. An extra heavyweight when we only have 2 or 3 lined up is reasonable. An extra BCS opponent rather than a non-BCS opponent is not too much to ask. Again, I suspect money is the issue here. We could certainly get most schools to agree to a home-and-home series. But I find it hard to believe that a decent or good BCS school wouldn't agree to a neutral site game if we agreed to split the gate, particularly those mid-level schools who gain national exposure by playing ND. Maybe you disagree, but I think South Carolina or Clemson would love the opportunity to play a nationally telivised game against ND and would make good money in the process. And these schools make a splash in their conference based on their conference record, so unless we're talking about a team that is struggling to get that 6th win (a team I'd rather we not play anyway) a win or loss does nothing to affect their chances to win their conference.

I agree that I would like to see us stay away from teams like Baylor (cough. . . Duke. . . cough). But there is no talk of Utah or Fresno St. or Boise St. and for the reasons outlined above I want to stay away from TCU as well. TCU was awful two years ago and who knows where they'll be in 5-10 years when the game actually takes place. A good coach will not stay with these programs for long (ask Utah, Boise St., and TCU). As far as BCS opponents are concerned, we get some credit for playing a historically decent or good or great BCS team if they are down. You get no such credit for playing a down non-BCS team.
Gizmo | Email | Homepage | 05.20.06 - 8:38 pm | #

Strength of schedule does indeed matter in BCS rankings because it factors into several computer rankings. This is largely why our BCS ranking was so low last year. Until we played tOSU, our strength of schedule was lower than many top-tier teams, which dropped our computer rankings and our overall rank.
Manor Man | Email | Homepage | 05.20.06 - 9:17 pm | #

You're right that SOS is a part of several sets of computer rankings, but I was referencing the fact that SOS is no longer a direct input used to compute BCS rankings as it was in the past. But thanks for clearing up the fact that SOS can indeed (though indirectly) effect BCS rankings.

However those computer rankings are very sophisticated. Not only is ND's SOS a factor, but the SOS of our opponents is a factor as well. Thus we improve our SOS by playing BCS teams because they will have a higher SOS than non-BCS teams will have. The computer rankings effectively rank the conferences, and wins against BCS teams will do more to improve our SOS and BCS ranking than wins against non-BCS schools with inflated records.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 05.21.06 - 7:07 pm | #