I hope that Weis & Co. borrow heavily from the part of Carolina's scheme where they don't let the opponent score much. I think that would be best.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 2:58 pm | #

I really like the fact that Weis is using his "connects" to brainstorm with other coaches, I think thats great. I just wonder though...Julius Peppers??? He is an absolute freak. Not even Justin "Almighty" Tuck was comparable to Peppers (esp. in terms of speed, which is what you need for an outside attack like Carolina employs.) Our defensive ends are decent, but lack the speed for this kind of attack, at least in my eyes. I know the article suggests the scheme relies heavily on shifts to confuse the O-line, but it still seems the outside speed from Rucker and Peppers (esp. Peppers) are the key ingredient ND lacks on defense. Anyone else agree? disagree?
chris | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 3:51 pm | #

Even at the high-collegiate level you don't have to have THE Julius Peppers - just a kid who is fast, strong and, most importantly, willing to play hard EVERY SINGLE DOWN.
I think that is what the Panthers D does so well - plays consistantly hard and never lets the other offense rest. Living in NC and watching the Panthers every week, it seems that there are quite a few NFL teams with more talent on that side of the ball, (especially when it comes to depth) but Carolina seems to play harder than their opposition on a regular basis.
If the Irish can mimic the Panthers' aggressiveness it will surely improve them from a PPG standpoint.
Tony | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 4:10 pm | #

Thanks for digging this out Jay! I have been wondering about the content of this "exchange" as well.

Chris, I agree that we are one Julius Peppers short in our defense. However, Abiamari is supposed to be a tremendous athlete. I am wondering if he can serve as a poor-man's version of JP.

The obvious disadvantage in this scheme (as opposed to the two-gap sysytem) is that you pick the wrong gap and get burned. But in the afterglow of the bonfire that was the Fiesta Bowl, what do we have to lose? Also, the shift fits with the apparent recruiting strategy. We seem to be going after a lot of fast guys at LB. (However, I am not an expert on these things and could just be reading into what I have heard.)
Ben | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 4:20 pm | #

I am fairly familiar with 1 gap defenses, and actually got to attend a camp on defense with Tony Dungy once. While the cover two is different from the scheme Fox uses, the one gap style is the same.

In a one gap, our guys will not be picking one gap, and will not run the risk of getting burned. For one, they will be assigned one gap (nitpicking, I know, but there is a difference) which they must at all times be responsible for. No gap should ever be open in a gap control defense. Ever. If there is it means somebody either screwed up bad or came too deep across the line of scrimage. In a one gap defense you rely on the pure aggression of your players to pounce through a gap and control it until they know where the play is going, and to then pursue straight down the line. The gaps which are not "plugged" by the defensive line fall to the linebackers responsibility, and at times the SS. This means that the LBs must always play the run first (they always should) and have to be relied upon to drop into coverage quickly and effectively to take away the middle of the field.

In a two gap system you rely on the ability of your players to read and recongize the play, making intelligence (football that is) and reaction more important than pure aggression (if such a thing is possible in football). While the initial push of a defensive line is typically weaker in this system, the ability of the defense to flow to the ball carrier is greatly increased. This is typical in many 3-4 systems, especially in the NT. It requires a lot from the defensive lineman, as their ability to effectively "gain a gap" by leaving open the gaps which they know won't be hit after they see where the ball is going means that either 1) there will be more defenders at the point of attack/pursuit or 2)one LB is freed up to blitz/spy into the backfield.

I'm probably wasting my figuritive breath here, but oh well. To be honest ND has been running a mainly one gap scheme for years now. I'm willing to bet less had to do with this than smaller things such as technique, blitzes, and how to maximize the potential of different players. I'm willing to bet most of what Weis & Co. learned from the Carolina trip we will never be able to see from the stands, and I think Weis likes it that way.

Sure is fun to talk about this stuff, though. Can't wait for football season.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 4:52 pm | #

I just hope to God our d-line can stay healthy. Our depth chart is paper thin, and that is scary to me.

I think you're right about Abiamiri. He is gigantic and from what I hear very fast. Friends of mine on the team have said he is better than Justin Tuck was but has just had rotten luck with injuries, lack of support from the rest of the line, etc. I hope they're right.

Brad- nice post. That some interesting stuff.
chris | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 6:00 pm | #

When Charlie announced his incoming freshman class, he described one defender as a kid who 'really gets after the quarterback.' If I'm not mistaken, he then used a variation on the term for five more players. Evidently it was a high priority in recruiting.

What are the chances we'll see one or two freshmen as third-and-long pass rushers?
lyle | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 6:13 pm | #

Whatever works.

I don't care about sacks - it's an overrated statistic. What really matters is disrupting the quarterback - be it forcing him to move, scramble, or hurry his pass. The more pressure he feels, the more likely he'll make a mistake. A defensive end can get 10 sacks and still not be that great. It's constant disruptions that count (although one could argue that sacks are a byproduct of this).

Our secondary isn't fast enough to keep up with the top receivers in the nation, so the more help they can get from the line, the better.

Like I said, whatever works.
andrew | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 6:20 pm | #

Reading between the lines a little bit...Correct me if I'm wrong here, but:

One gap = minimizes the risk of getting burned.

Two gap = increases the chance of sacks and tackles for loss at the potentially huge expense of getting burned really bad.

Given our propensity to getting burned last year, why in the world are we going to a two gap defense? Maybe it's the thought that, if we're going to continue to get burned like last year, we should at least try to be aggressive and get some huge plays on defense as well.

Are we just accepting the fact that we'll get burned, then? I'm confused.
Andrew | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 6:32 pm | #

Our secondary is plenty fast to keep up with the top receivers in the college game. Really, they are. No, really.

The problem is not they lack the speed amongst the corners. Our defense's problem in the passing game was lack of a pass rush....NOT lack of speed in the secondary. Even I could get open with 5 seconds to run around in the secondary. Hence why the new defensive line scheme is a priority.
chris | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 6:50 pm | #

Chris is right, the secondary (with the exception of a few play action bits early on) is plenty fast, but most quarterbacks can make a play if they can check down two or three receivers. Need to get to the QB. That says speed at the ends and at the lb. We might have the ends, I doubt the LBs. I suspect Charlie's not looking for a whoelsale philosphical change, he's seeking a few advantages that panic a QB.
Yago | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 7:10 pm | #

What evidence is there that the secondary is "fast enough"? Maybe it's the zone scheme and mental mistakes, but the corners constantly fell behind the receivers they were assigned to.
andrew | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 8:03 pm | #

They fell behind because they bit on play action, were out of position, didn't communicate with each other, and took bad angles. 40 times aren't the issue--inability to use it/mistakes negating it are. Go back and watch the highlight videos Nevin put up--how often do you see Wooden not give up on a play and make a tackle at the one or two that saves a TD in the end? Michigan immediately comes to mind, where Ndukwe eventually came up with the fumble in the endzone--that was set up by Wooden showing some wheels to catch Breaston. There was at least one other instance I can't recall exactly at the moment, but Wooden's got speed. Zibby's got wheels as well. Richardson isn't slow; Ndukwe is probably the slowest of the bunch, but not so bad it can't be compensated for with good positioning/play ID and a decent pass rush.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 9:28 pm | #

Thanks for posting these exerpts. You had to be hoping that something could be picked up from the Panthers coaches that could help our D-line. Lack of a pass rush was what killed us in losses against MSU and tO$U. Both schools had mobile quarterbacks who could avoid tackles until their receivers stretched the feild so far that our DBs ended up either burned or in unfortunate single coverages.

The subtle intricacies of our D-line attack (and thanks to Brad for his breakdowns above) will go a long way in determining this team's level of success.
imposs1ble | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 10:33 pm | #

It tkes 11 guys to play D. Many two-gap schemes are really one gap, line plays to power side gap. The real question is are we going to play aggressive and attack the gap or stuff the block and maintian the gap to minimize the run. The key is to be quicker off the ball and make the O line start on their heals and the battle is won. We need pressure up front and the ability to make a team one dimensional. Get up a couple of scores and then pin back our ears and rush the passer. It's not the sack it's the pressure. Hit the QB every down and pretty soon fatigue and fear will turn into turnovers. Last year we had to outscore teams, this year the O can be a big part of the D.
Domer Dan | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 10:33 pm | #

There is a lot of evidence that suggests the corners are fast enough. You could check the 40 times if you want, but as Nate said, thats not the issue. They are fast. But I really think two things mainly killed us: the play action and the lack of a pass rush, plain and simple. Impossible1 was right when he said that thats the reason MSU and tOSU killed us. The quarterback could scamper around until the field was completely spread out...which is a problem.
chris | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 11:25 pm | #

also if you scroll down to the post about Eric Hansen it reads:

"(The secondary is plenty fast, but were often hung out to dry by the lack of a pass rush)."

I'm not making this stuff up.
chris | Email | Homepage | 06.19.06 - 11:27 pm | #

Let's not forget this aspect -- With McNeil and Walls, we can now execute the corner blitz off the receiver which UM and USC are famous for. Can you imagine McNeil and Walls with their sub 4.4 speed leaving their receiver at the line and blitzing? We did that ONCE, last year. And it was Wooden on the slot.
Cricket Kovatch | Email | Homepage | 06.20.06 - 12:39 am | #

Wooden is probably the fastest player in the secondary, but I still wouldn't really lable him "fast" in relation to what you see out of the corners coming out of other top programs. Wooden is a hustler, but on the USC play, for example, it really took every ounce of effort to catch up to a lumbering Dwayne Jarrett. If you watch the play, you'll notice Zbikowski losing ground to Jarrett. I wouldn't call Ndukwe fast by any means. Richardson just looks like an average corner in every respect. Speed isn't as much of a factor for the safeties, so Zbikowski can still be a great player despite being more quick than fast (you'll notice in the draft a lot of guys w/ 4.5 and 4.6 speed still go pretty high).

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but ND hasn't had a great athlete at corner in a while and neither Wooden nor Richardson look any better than what we've had out there in the past number of seasons. I do like Wooden as a player because he never gives up, but there's no way he looks close to being a shutdown type of corner. I've always read/heard coaches saying that the two most important things in a corner are confidence and speed. Shane Walton was a good college corner because he had overwhelming confidence. My personal opinion is I don't really see great speed or confidence from Wooden and especially not Richardson.

Just my two cents. Sorry if that's not all entirely logical, I'm not a lucid thinker at 2am :p
andrew | Email | Homepage | 06.20.06 - 2:58 am | #

btw if it was Weis or minter who said that the speed of the secondary was fine, I'll take back my comment. But if it was just Eric Hansen, then I've got to respectfully disagree with him.
andrew | Email | Homepage | 06.20.06 - 4:37 am | #

I have a couple of brief notes:

1) I'll reiterate, Notre Dame is not changing its defensive gap scheme. That article related to the switch in defenses at Carolina from Seifert (who I believe ran a two-gap 3-4) to the one gap, 4-3 allignment used by Fox now. ND has used a primarily one gap defense since midway into the Davie years.

2) Sacks often are only seen as indicative of d-line play. While of course they do come from the d-line, sacks are a product of good COVERAGE. When nothing is open, a QB has to throw it away (which none want to do), throw into coverage (int) or tuck it down and take the sack unless they can get away.

3) Conversely, interceptions are often indicative of an excellent pass rush. When a QB feels constant pressure, his mental clock speeds up and he feels forced to make a quick decision. Quick decisions are often flawed, and can result in interceptions.

4) Contrary to popular opinion, speed is NOT vital to a pass rush. Speed obviously helps, but then again it does anywhere on the football field. Bruce Smith and Reggie White never ran 4.4 40s like some of the freaks in the NFL now, but were highly effective. What really produces a great pass rush is rotation so that our boys are fresh, and a high motor. Its cliche, but if everyone on our d-line is full go everyplay, the o-line wears down and the constant pressure (not even sacks) will eventually get to the QB. Strength and technique (swim, club, spin, bull rush) combined with effort is more than enough.

I'll get down from my soapbox now.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 06.20.06 - 7:36 am | #

Has nothing to do with this, but wondering if anyone has seen this video on Trojanwire...its pretty funny.

http://www.trojanwire.com/footba...ibrary- card.php
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 06.20.06 - 10:16 am | #

A good pass rush means more pressure on the QB regardless of the sack count.

More pressure = faster decision making, which can often lead to mistakes. Put pressure on the QB and the DBs can jump routes as they know the ball will be getting rid of a lot faster.

No pass rush and even a guy in cement shoes can find someone eventually. Stick in a mobile QB (say Staton or T. Smith) and the problem is multiplied. Which is exactly what killed us against the likes of MS-flag-planting-U and tO$U.
IrishHoffy | Email | Homepage | 06.20.06 - 1:45 pm | #

You really can't make statements like, "sacks are an indicator of good coverage and INTs are an indicator of a good pass rush".

There are so many unmeasured factors that go into these kinds of stats. Oklahoma is entering the season with the top ranked d-line (at least that's the opinion of the magazines), yet they had just as many INTs (13) as ND last season. So would you say our line is on par with theirs in terms of pass rush ability?

The problem with football statistics is that they often are not a very good indicator of what really happened. In baseball, if a guy hits a homerun, it's pretty cut and dry. In football, if you look on the box score and see that Anthony Fasano had a 45 yard TD or whatever it was against Tennessee, you'd think he must have showed some wheels. What doesn't show up is the great block Stovall made to open the whole thing up for him.

You gotta go off what you see and what I saw last year was an above average line and an average to below average secondary. I saw a lot of pressure from guys like Landri and Abiamari. In fact, Landri stood out more to me than any other player on the defense by far. But it doesn't matter how good the line is, there are going to be times when they all get stuffed and our corners are going to need to make a play, or better yet, stick to a receiver so he can't. What I saw last year was our guys constantly getting beat both physically and mentally when put in that position.

Depth aside, can you really say the d-line is more of a liability than the secondary? Tommy Z can't cover the entire field.
andrew | Email | Homepage | 06.20.06 - 3:07 pm | #

Andrew, my intention was not to claim that the only factor in interceptions in the pass rush, or anything like that. I am merely stating, much like you, that statistics cannot be the only indicator of a particular positions play.

I completely stand by what I said, though. It is much easier for a secondary to cover well if the QB is under constant pressure. Note the Fiesta Bowl. We had NO pressure on Smith, he ran around, and eventually when the coverage broke down he chucked it deep to the open man. He did that all day long, and you'll see something similar in the MSU game. Its much harder for a corner or a safety to get burned if the QB is forced to throw the ball when the receiver is only 7 yards into his route. Give him time to run around for 8 seconds and I guarantee he'll get open, it is a really big field after all. At the same time, a lock down corner can allow the secondary to cheat to the other side of the field, making coverage tighter and giving the d-line another precious second of indecision to bag a sack.

My basic point is that ND fans should stop (thats right, stop) whining about a slow secondary getting burned by faster receivers. Our defensive flaws showed most evidently in the secondary due to a relatively weak pass rush combined with inexperienced players in the secondary, and even then they weren't terrible, they just had some bad plays/games. It happens. I truly believe that will be corrected, and we will see a very different defense next year than we did under Year 1 of Charlie.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 06.20.06 - 3:42 pm | #

In other news, Marc Tyler gave a verbal to USC. :( It sounds like he chose USC because Pete Carroll has been recruiting him since his freshman season. This is all despite the fact that USC has 3 top freshman coming in this season and another top RB prospect in addition to Tyler next season.

Maybe they'll bring back the wishbone.
andrew | Email | Homepage | 06.21.06 - 6:42 am | #

Brad,

Since you brought up the Fiesta Bowl, take another look at the 1st Quarter TD pass to Ginn.

OSU was in a maximum protect, 1st and 10 situation and Ginn ran 10 yards past Nedu right down the middle of the field.

Yes, Nedu bit on the play action, but it is possible to have lousy instincts and be slow , which is what we have in Nedu.

We could have had the "Purple People Eaters" as our front four, but with six linemen blocking 4 lineman, it wouldn't have mattered.

You might call this example of our slow field safety being beaten by their faster receiver "whining".

I call it realism.
Frankus | Email | Homepage | 06.21.06 - 4:34 pm | #

I call it a mistake made by a college football junior who was playing defense for the first season in his entire career against possibly the fastest player in college football. Again, experience is the issue.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 06.21.06 - 7:16 pm | #

Brad,

Nedu was moved to defense after his Freshman year. He played defense all of his Sophomore and Junior years and the OSU game was his 12th start of the season.

Experience might have been an excuse early in the year, when our Field Safety was constantly being beaten deep. However, after 12 games of game experience, to cry "inexperience" when all our Field Safety had to do was read pass/run and then cover one receiver running right at him, is avoiding the inescapable: The fact is that we have a glaring weakness of talent at Field Safety, which will again be our Achilles' heel in 2006.
Frankus | Email | Homepage | 06.22.06 - 3:48 pm | #

Just a thought, but could Weis' interest in Carolina's schemes have something to do with ND's struggles against mobile quarterbacks and Carolina's success at making Michael Vick look foolish last year?

I enjoyed the one-gap, two-gap discussion.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 06.26.06 - 7:27 pm | #