Can she play ball?
Correction | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 9:06 am | #

My grandchildren visited yesterday. We took my grandson for a hot dog. Then he took a nap. Later we played with some toys. My granddaughter is taking her first steps.
Jim '72 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 9:15 am | #

We just don't have the horses to compete with the big boys, and until we do we have to sit back and take the sh*t that's going to be heaped upon us. We are a 2nd tier, 11-15 range team, and here's hoping we can get over the hump in 2008.
Tony Spilotro | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 9:18 am | #

Life is Good today for the fifth consecutive year

Oh yeah, The Trojan future is so bright, it needs shades

Hey I had to say some smack!!!

I will say this though, the ND fans were total class yesterday at the colesium :) Kudos and good luck in your bowl game

Good ND teams are good for CFB and USC
TrojanHorse98 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:07 am | #

Jay, so was mine. The father-in-laws toast was long and awkward, but other than that, we had a good time. And my YSU Penguins beat James Madison in fine style.
Lowry | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:11 am | #

yes, at least the 'guins won.
bfoley | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:37 am | #

Can't talk right now, I'm in a cave somewhere in WV licking my wounds. I'm not coming out until our bowl opponent is decided for us.

Three old fashioned ass-whippings in one year is about all I can take, hope we get someone we can possibly beat in 2007.
philB | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:43 am | #

The most powerful posting tool avaiable to us: ignoring boneheads and assholes.

Happy to congratulate SC fans on a butt kicking, willing to take my licks -- particularly from those posters who were here last week participating in civil, interesting exchanges of opinion.

But for the classless gloaters who have come out of the woodwork only after the game was won? Give them the one reaction that will drive them up the wall.

Silence.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 11:14 am | #

It was a tough loss but to a terrific USC team. After all the previous years, I can live with 10-2 and hopefully a bowl victory. Better years are coming. Thanks to Charley, Brady and the rest of the team for a great season and Good Luck in January and 2007.

Go Irish!
Jim Keough | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 11:51 am | #

We have to play Michigan again next year. No need to start out with that this winter. I'm sure the committees will agree.

Looking forward to an Arkansas-Florida winner, if we don't get dropped out of the box tonight.
Judge | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 12:17 pm | #

USA today has us at #12.
ladyIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 12:47 pm | #

You don't have to be a genius to know how to beat the Irish - it's really simple - attack the secondary.

And at the risk of [re]-stating the obvious, until this horrid defense is fixed we simply aren't going to be able to compete with top tier teams. It's really that simple.

BTW, not going to a BCS bowl may be a blessing - we might have a chance to actually win a bowl game.
christopher | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 1:24 pm | #

At least we won't have to watch an Ohio State - Michigan rematch for the NC.
Jeff | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 1:28 pm | #

I don't want to go to a shitty bowl. I want to play in a BCS game. We can compete with Arkansas or Florida.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 1:45 pm | #

if we played ark it would be interesting, since they cant do what christopher (and everyone else) realizes you need to do to beat us: throw the ball. Mcfadden is a freak, but that's about all they've got.

watching Ark really is like watching the state championship team in HS footbaw
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 1:58 pm | #

Remember, gentlemen: 11 wins in Brady's first two years under Willingham. 19 wins, and a possible 20th, in two years under Weis.

If you had asked us in Willingham's third year whether we would take 9-3 and 11-2/10-3 for the next two years, who wouldn't have jumped at it?
PassRight | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 2:55 pm | #

Defensive recruiting.
NOW.
Jo | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 3:32 pm | #

Everybody sees skill players like Quinn etc. and thinks "well, Ty did some good recruiting . . ." but we the real fans know what kind of problems we have on the depth chart. And I am frustrated with people who are claiming we got out coached: I could see as clearly as anybody what Weis was trying to do last night, but we just didn't have the athleticism to pull it off. We could have gone into half time 24-21 but instead, we started hammering in our own coffin nails.
Regardless, we were 9-3 last year. Let's just make it 11-2 this year! Go Irish!!!
yep | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 4:08 pm | #

new polls have ND at 12th. i think we would all agree thats about where they ought to be. im just glad they didnt drop below media-darling west virginia. i thought for sure they would...

the bowl game is still a chance to legitimize the season. lose that, and the last four months will have been a waste.
schultz | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 4:17 pm | #

If I hear one more comment on how Ty brought in this class I swear I will puke. It is true that he brought this class in, but if anybody thinks Notre Dame would have been 9-3 2005 and 10-2 in 2006 they need to be placed in an insane asylum. Charlie Weis is the only reason this team has won 19 games the last two years. Charlie Weis is the reason Brady Quinn will be the overall number one pick in next years NFL draft. CW is brash and cocky and arrogant and everything else but he is the only reason this team is where it is at. Sure Pete Carroll looked like he outcoached him, but with the difference in the talent that is easily misconstrued. Notre Dame is still two to three years away from being a legitimate national title contender, and hopefully the loss last night won't cost us any recruits (Reggie Bush) The last ten years or so have been extremely frustrating and it will take more than two years to take us back to the top. Hopefully we will get there in 2008 and not look back. Good luck to BQ because that kid will be sorely missed.
irishfaninAR | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 4:28 pm | #

That Sucked.

I was especially impressed at how quickly USC burned their challenge and timeouts in the 2nd half, and saddened we couldn't make them pay dearly for that. Clearly, Carroll is the stronger captain. I especially liked how he coached all his players to run so goddamn quickly. Brrrilliant!

For all the ND player family members reading this, I am not bitter that your son/daughter dropped a pass last night that might have given us a critical first down. Really. These are kids after all and we can't expect them to be perfect on every play. Unfortunately, it probably would have taken perfection to beat our opponents last night and in that environment, we can at least be happy to have stayed in the fight. I would honestly rather lose every big game against a top tier program if it meant not compromising on academics. No matter what happens on the field, its important to remember the many ways these guys have made us proud. Well done, lads.

Now let's talk about the Gators. Tony, I disagree - I think this is a top ten team, but clearly in the second rank behind tOSU, UM, and USC. I personally hope we don't see a rematch in the Rose Bowl, only because I think a game against the Gators would be more interesting, winnable, and I'd love to see the Weis/Mayer matchup. If USC goes to the title game, is a trip to Pasadena assured for us? I thought I read that the rose bowl picks first this year if it loses a team from an anchor conference. Bummer. Now I have to go think about something besides football for awhile.
indy | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 5:16 pm | #

Charlie Weis is an overrated idiot. I would be instantly fired at my job for being such a self-promoting and ineffective gasbag. What a joke!
Papawoody | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 5:22 pm | #

Papa... it appears you are a gasbag... don't look now, the boss is standing behind you....also, go look at poodle's personal website/shrine... so much gas you'll explode...
DC | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 5:49 pm | #

papa, can you please provide some evidence to clear up how Charlie Weis is an overrated idiot?
Sean | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 6:12 pm | #

Coach Weis is so overrated that every offensive player he comes into contact with his instantly better and breaks numerous school records. BQ went from average to possibly being the number one pick in the draft in two years. Samardjiza barely whiffed the field his first two years. He'll leave scoring more touchdowns than any player in school history. Ya' think Fasano, Stovall and McKnight might owe a debt of gratitude to The Big Guy, too?

The defense needs to get going in the years to come but when we get a couple more top five recruting classes in here we are going to atomize opposing defenses. Let's not forget we're going at people this season with a junior class that is almost non-existant (all apologies to Walker and Crum) and a very mediocre group of sophomores.

The pundits can get their shots in the next two years but beginning in '08 we're not losing to anyone.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 6:30 pm | #

excerpt from an article today:

"On a night of grudges, Jarrett held the biggest against Notre Dame. Turns out the Fighting Irish had recruited Jarrett when he was a senior in high school in New Brunswick, N.J. But Jarrett said Notre Dame, then coached by Tyrone Willingham, ended the courtship because the Irish questioned whether he could make it academically.

“It was an insult to me,’’ Jarrett said after the game. “I felt they didn’t think I was smart enough or intelligent enough to go to their school. I kind of took that as a slap in my face.’’

He brought that anger onto the field every time he faced Notre Dame.

“My freshman year, I kind of ripped them apart a little bit,’’ he said. “Last year I did, and this year, I mean … ’’’

Big smile.

For the record, Jarrett said he scored an 820 on the SAT and had a 2.8 grade point average. But the fact is, Willingham and perhaps the folks in the admissions office at Notre Dame weren’t the only ones who doubted Jarrett."

Even with the ass-kicking that SC laid on ND last night, I can be proud that my school doesn't compromise academics to win football games. We dont want your 820 SAT, regardless of your ability.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 6:44 pm | #

Wow USC, way to take quality students like Dwayne Jarrett. I hope you're really proud of your school.
Jamie | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 6:49 pm | #

The loss really underscores what a great job Charlie Weis has done in the OTHER games we have played. This team just isn't all that talented outside of the offensive skill positions (and the defensive line), and it shows whenever we go up against a very good team like a USC or Michigan. 9-3 and 10-2 (hopefully 11-2) is unreal considering the defense.

Good job SC. Now go kill Ohio State.
Andy | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 6:59 pm | #

schultz: Yeah, agree 100%. Between two ass-whippings, two come from behinds, and a couple of cupcakes, 12th is pretty close to who we are. I don’t care who we play in whatever bowl, we got to win.

Looking forward, as stated many times, the present junior and sophomore classes are worrisome. Looking behind, what really bothers me is that Sam Young from the freshman class is not only the lone starter, but really the only freshman who has seen serious, quality starting and playing time. I don’t know what happened to Aldridge and Prince, West alternated scaring me and disappointing me.

Spring training is going to be so wide open you can drive a train through it.

A final rambling note, the present AD needs to be taken out and horse whipped for scheduling Army as the 12th opponent. If that was the best caliber team available, then we should have kept the week open to work harder against USC, who knows if it would have helped? I’m sure CW would have preferred that. But it’s all about $$$$$$. We are stuck with Navy until the end of college football, we don’t need the grieve and bull-shit from the media over scheduling the other service academies in the same year. Why they don’t securitize everyone else like ND?

A final final note: Saunders, Corso, and May can kiss my whipped ass.

A final final final note: My liquor cabinet is depleted.

Go Irish. Beat whomever in 2007.
philB | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 7:10 pm | #

How the hell do you get an 820 on the SATs? Thank you for upholding some semblance of the "college" portion of college football.
Mr. A | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 7:12 pm | #

Why hasn't Charlie really Recruited any LBs last year or this year? Is he planning on converting some RBs or something?
Irish4eva | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 7:22 pm | #

Considering you start with 400 for signing your name, Mr. A., I'm not sure how you only get an 820. I guess Jarrett signed his name twice.

Shots to his academic prowess aside, he's going to make lots and lots of money very soon. Go Pro, young man, and end your dominance over ND. I'm sure some agent would love to negotiate a $5 million contract for you--once the agent takes his 10%, you'll get, like, a whole million dollars, right?
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 7:22 pm | #

The defense was bad, but the Offense failed as bad, if not worse. The failure to get points off the turnovers killed us.
Jake | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 7:51 pm | #

Andy, are you sure you want 'SC to kill tOSU? Someone else on the blog (rightly) pointed out that we don't we really compete with tOSU for recruits. I agree. We certainly DO compete with Michigan and Southern Cal. SC winning a 3rd NC in 4 years is VERY BAD for ND. I cannot bring myself to root for tOSU. I F*CKING hate them. But, I will hope that SC loses. Is it too much to pray for a UCLA upset and the Gators get in?

Anon, I agree, we can compete with Arky because of their complete lack of a passing game, but based on the slap in the face that was last night to the reality that just don't have the athletes, I believe we would be housed by Florida.

Of the other eligible top BCS teams not going to BCS title game, here are the ones with which I believe we can compete:

3. Michigan- No
4. Florida- No
5. LSU- No
6. Louisville- No
7. Wisconsin- Yes
8. Boise State- Yes (I haven't seen them enough so this is a bit of an assumption)
9. Arkansas- Yes
11. Auburn- Yes (same reason as Arky)
12. Oklahoma- Yes
13. Rutgers- Yes (same as Arky/AU)
14. Va Tech- Yes

I'm not sure of the possibilities/picks, but a nice, interesting, winnable matchup would be with the Oklahoma/Nebraska winner.
Irish Rat | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 7:54 pm | #

Irish Rat -

Given Florida's struggles on offense, I think that's a winnable game. They can barely get 20 points on the board on any given Saturday.

Don't know anything about Louisville's defense but if it's weak, we could beat them too.
jaisn | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 8:17 pm | #

We're 10th in the BCS. There are 10 slots, 4 of them At-large slots:

1. OSU (NC Game) (Big 10)
2. USC (NC Game, assuming they beat UCLA. If not, Rose Bowl) (Pac 10)
3. Michigan (At large--Rose Bowl, NC game if USC loses)
4. Florida (Sugar Bowl if beat Arkansas, outside shot at NC game) (SEC)
5. LSU (At large from SEC)
6. Louisville (Possible Big East Champ, if WVU beats Rutgers--At Large if not)
7. Wisconsin (Ineligible for BCS, due to being #3 Big 10 team)
8. Boise State (Automatic At Large, to Fiesta Bowl)
9. Arkansas (Sugar Bowl if win SEC Championship, out if no)
10. ND (We get in automatically if #8 or higher)
11. Auburn (#4 SEC team, so ineligible)
12. Oklahoma (Fiesta Bowl, if win Big 12 Champ)
13. Rutgers (if beat WVU, then Big East Champ)
Skip a few...
17. Wake Forest (ACC Champ if beat Ga Tech)
20. Nebraska (Big 12 Champ poss)
22. Ga Tech (ACC Champ if beat Wake)

So, spots we know are filled:

NC Game: OSU vs. ?
Rose Bowl: ? vs. ?
Fiesta Bowl: Big 12 Champ vs. Boise State
Sugar Bowl: ? vs. ?
Orange Bowl: ACC Champ vs. ?

6 spots left. http://www.bcsfootball.org/bcsfb...sfb/ eligibility
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 8:37 pm | #

USC as Pac-10 champ gets one, we don't know where yet--5 spots left.

Automatic at-large rules have changed--if a conference has a team in the NC game and their #2 team is ranked #3 or #4 in the BCS, they are in--so Michigan is in, no brainer. 4 spots left.

Louisville has one more game, vs. UCONN, and will likely win. A WVU win, and Louisville claims the BE Championship and automatic berth. If Rutgers wins, they claim that auto berth. 3 spots left.

UF or Arkansas will be the SEC Champ. The winner is in--the loser is out, because LSU will likely be ranked higher in the BCS if a second SEC team is chosen. 2 slots left.

The candidates for the remaining 2 slots:

LSU #5
Louisville #6 (if Rutgers wins BE)
ND #10

And that's really it, since no conference can have more than 2 teams in the BCS--Wisconsin and the Arky/UF loser are out of luck.

So it comes down to us vs. probably Louisville in the selection committee's eyes. Let's hope WVU beats Rutgers, so we don't have to hear how we stole a spot from Louisville.

If USC goes to NC game and WVU beats Rutgers:

NC: OSU vs. USC
Rose: Mich vs. ND/Louisville
Sugar: UF vs. Louisville/ND
Fiesta: Ok/Neb vs. Boise State
Orange: Wake/Ga Tech vs. LSU

If USC loses to UCLA and Mich goes to NC:

NC: OSU vs. Mich
Rose: USC vs. Louiville
Sugar: UF vs. ND
Fiesta: Ok/Neb vs. Boise St
Orange: Wake/Ga Tech vs. LSU

If UF goes:
NC: OSU vs. UF
Rose: USC vs. Mich
Sugar: LSU vs. ND
Fiesta: Ok/Neb vs. Boise St
Orange: Wake/Ga Tech vs. Louisville

If Rutgers wins, then we'll probably get picked over Louisville--but who knows. Personally, I could handle the Gator Bowl against Wake Forest or Cotton Bowl against aTm.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 8:38 pm | #

I'd rather play in a crappy bowl just to have a SHOT at winning a bowl game. I feel any team in a BCS bowl would simply DESTROY our secondary over and over again.

I fear this will continue to happen until Minter is gone.
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 8:40 pm | #

Way to rip on Dwayne Jarrett's SAT scores. Nothing like mocking a 20-year old's intelligence the day after he torched your football team. He certainly deserves to be marginalized as such.

Stay classy (and mediocre), South Bend.
TB | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 9:23 pm | #

I don't know, Jaisn. They're having trouble scoring against SEC defenses, which other than maybe Vandy's, are all better than ours. The Gators points in last 6 games (not counting cream puff Western Carolina)

LSU- 23
Auburn- 17
Georgia- 21
Vandy-25
S. Carolina-17
FSU- 21

I'd say the Gators would score at least 28 against our D. The one thing they are is balanced with a stud WR (Baker). That to me spells trouble for our D. Plus, I think our offense, particularly our wideouts, have trouble vs. good defenses (which Florida has). I think we'd struggle to score more than 28. So to me, that spells loss to UF. Brohm and JaMarcus Russell would absolutely destroy our secondary.
Irish Rat | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 9:32 pm | #

Daybreak- Jarrett and SC kicking our ass had little to do with Minter. Minter actually brought quite a few blitzes; we just couldn't get there. Minter didn't make our secondary slow.

Where the hell were Zibby and Nedu last night? Did they make any plays? Correction, I do remember Zibby making a play- the PI on Jarrett to prevent his 4th TD. I love Zibby, but he's nowhere to be found on pass plays.
Irish Rat | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 9:34 pm | #

So I made this post shortly before gametime on keys to victory. Let's see how we did:

Quick keys to victory:

- KEY: Come out in 5-wide, no huddle to nuetralize their speed (like tOSU did to Michigan). Have BQ in 3-step drops, read the mismatch.
- ACTUAL: We failed. Came out in 4-wide and hit Rhema right away, but then stalled. Didn't do any 3-step, quick throws. The 3rd and 4th and 9 plays were both 7 steps with medium to deep patterns.

- KEY: MUST force some turnovers like we did at MSU- rip the ball out, hit A$$man from behind, etc.
ACTUAL- We got 2 when we needed them; the offense just failed to capitalize (stupid play call by Weis on 3rd and 1, drop by Rhema didn't help)

- KEY: No big penalties (Holding that puts us in 1st and 20, wipe out big plays, etc.)
ACTUAL- the false start on the first drive by Harris was a killer; HUGE difference b/w 2nd and 12 and 2nd and 17.

- KEY: Force 'SC to beat us by running the ball. I'm fine if Gable or Washington goes apesh*t and beat us, but DO NOT let Smith and Jarrett go for long TDs like Manningham did.
ACTUAL- Uh, not so much. The last TD by Jarrett was flat out embarrassing.

- KEY: Get off to a fast start; falling behind in the 1st will be a killer, particularly with the way Southern Cal plays in the 2nd half.
ACTUAL- Stall on 1st drive, down 14-3 after Q1. Not good.

GO IRISH! GET THAT SIGNATURE WIN!!
Not so much.
Irish Rat | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 9:55 pm | #

Now that ZBig Daddy Leinart's gone, is New Daddy Booty paying Mr. 8-2-0's rent this year??
onehipdad | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:17 pm | #

uh, Big..
onehipdad | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:18 pm | #

"Way to rip on Dwayne Jarrett's SAT scores. Nothing like mocking a 20-year old's intelligence the day after he torched your football team. He certainly deserves to be marginalized as such.

Stay classy (and mediocre), South Bend."



TB - You probably got a 820, too. Did you look of Jarrett's test for answers? I would rather have smart football players than players like Chauncey Washington and Dwayne Jarret who only know how to play football and THAT IS IT.

See link for example: http://kgreen.blogspot.com/2006/...s- tailback.html
Frommy | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:23 pm | #

So the whole Rick Minter "bend-don't-break" defense broke pretty hard last night. We gave those Condom WRs nice little eight-to-ten yard cushions so they could double-move our cornerbacks right out of their pads en route to scoring a bajillion touchdowns. Why couldn't we just play more physical? Why not jam Jarrett and Smith at the line of scrimmage? Why give them ten yards for free?

We really did miss John Carlson. I think it is reasonable to think that if we had had John Carlson at TE, last night's game would have been totally different. Freeman is not the kind of threat that Carlson is in the middle of the field, so the Condoms had the luxury of blanketing Sarmardzija with two, sometimes three defensive players. They couldn't have done that if Carlson had been on the field; he and his velcro-hands would have made the Trojans pay dearly for paying too much attention to Samardzija.

Here's the problem as I see it: the inconsistency of this team really caught up to it in a big way. When the defense was clicking, (i.e., those two picks in the 2nd quarter), our offense couldn't put points on the board. We left fourteen points on the field, not to mention missed out on some tremendous momentum. (Fourteen points, by-the-by, should be the actual margin of victory, since I refuse to count that junk touchdown on the onside "kick" at the end.) When the offense seemed like it was performing, the defense broke down. And special teams was wildly inconsistent: give up a 42 yard return on one play, then block a punt on another? Why can't we just to the latter thing?

I could say there is always next year. The fact is, I hardly know what to think about next year. The defense might very well be worse, and the offense will be breaking in a new O-line, a new quarterback, possibly some new TE's, and new WRs.

One thing in our advantage: we'll have the Condoms in our house next year. And Charlie Weis is still a good football coach.
Alex | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:33 pm | #

poor form--a wedding on an ND football weekend. i had the sense to schedule mine during the 10/14 bye week.
wedding? | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:44 pm | #

I hate not getting what I want for Christmas. Get 'em next year back in South Bend, guys.
This is a sincere personal thanks to this year's team and coaches for all the memories, and a humble request for a few more in the game you have left, whatever game that is.
I'm hoping the "trained dogs" have a few more trips to the end zone left in them.
The Notre Dame Fighting Irish football team has been my favourite thing about the Autumn for 30 years. It lives with me all through the winter and Spring,
Did anyone see Joe Montana on the sideline last night? It looked like he was itching to get in there.
'Why not?' I thought. Give him Evan Sharpley's uniform and let him see what he can do.
Go Irish! Fight on!
Joe | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 10:54 pm | #

I was one of the guys who in September and October was defending Minter and citing his ability to make second half adjustments and shut down the opponent's offense.

What was I smoking?

Sure we improved statiscally this year but after last year we didn't have anywhere to go but up. And we padded our defensive stats against crappy, one dimensional offenses. Minter needs to go. I love Weis and it will take more than two losses to the #2 and #3 teams to make me question him, but I would like to see him use his extensive rolodex and get us somebody who can teach these guys. Come on!

I have heard from a few people that they really don't like Weis' preparation for big games, citing how Holtz always had his guys up for David v. Goliath type matchups. Well I really don't care if he wants to be 'professional' about his preparation and hype, but get some coordinators who will get our guys fired up and rally. Weis can be cool and even keel, but let's get a d coordinator who will be in guys' face and slap on the head when they make a good play.

And in regards to next year, I honestly cannot be more excited. It will be a season long tryout for our new freshmen and current freshmen. Next year I see us losing a few to teams we should (UM, USC, and maybe PSU) but winning theo nes we should and probably picking one up against the teams we should lose to. Going into 2008 we should have great 1-2 depth and a new group of freshman ready to continually push the backups and starters for their jobs.

2007: 9-3 worst case
2008: 12-0
PM | Email | Homepage | 11.26.06 - 11:02 pm | #

As awful as we played we should have been leading at halftime. I can't wait to be talented again. Remember when we were awesome ('88-'89) and punishing foes with our great players. Oh, I long for yesterday! Bring back the glory days, CW!
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 12:01 am | #

Pass the dutchie, PM. What are you still smoking?

The worst-case scenario you are predicting next year will be virtually the same as the results this year, despite the fact that we will be losing over half of our starters, including at least three offensive linemen, our top two receivers, our top two tight ends, three or four defensive linemen, likely both safeties, and our best cornerback. Oh, yeah, and that All-American quarterback guy.

We couldn't pick one up against a team we should lose to this year, and I wouldn't expect next year to be any different with the utter lack of experience and depth all over the field. Looking at the schedule, the only opponent I might expect to be worse than this year is MSU (Stanford couldn't get any worse and I expect GT's defense to stifle our newbie offense (Also, no more Calvin Johnson: good; no more Reggie Ball: bad)). We would be fortunate to do as well as PSU did this year in a similar situation.

And holy crap, could our kickoffs have been more painful to witness last night? Serenity now!!!

I had been holding it in, but I feel better now. Honest.
Lo-fi | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 12:40 am | #

Lo-fi,

Great pts. I must still be smoking what I was previously but I guess I will always be optimistic. Oh and I know others have said this but I would also like to say that the fans @ yesterday's game were absolutely fine. Class acts. USC and ND should put a clinic on for tOSU fans on how to act at and after games.
PM | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 1:07 am | #

i have a question, and i've not seen it raised elsewhere... why don't we blitz tommy z more? he's an obvious liability in deep pass coverage, but a wrecking ball with a head of steam. he would seem to be the optimum guy to bring from all angles to disrupt timing and get to the qb- something we could have used much more of on saturday night.
tjf | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 1:55 am | #

Just looking ahead to next year, as it is too early to look ahead to a bowl game, so could anyone give an update on recruiting? So far, we do not have that many verbals. I know Charlie made it sound like we could have quite a few more, but does anyone have any idea where we stand on some of the top recruits?
ND'90 | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 8:52 am | #

I think so many ND fans are overreacting. I've been a fan of ND for over forty years. Nothing I would have loved more than to kick USC's butt, but hey it didn't happen. But we're 10-2, and unlike in previous years, we've beaten the teams we should. We may not be at the top yet, but can't you see it coming? After living through Faust, and the Davie-ham eras, I am thrilled to be 10-2, 19-5 over two years, and the probability of another big bowl. I'm not going to criticise our players. We play with what we have. Willingham would have lost that game by 50. Better times are not only coming, but in a sense, they are already here.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 9:02 am | #

Frommy,

"An" 820. And it's spelled "off." Thanks for playing.
TB | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 9:41 am | #

Steve, I totally sympathize with you. I was in school during the Davie year (and ty's first year). God i would have loved to have a team like this.

the problem is, beating the teams we should just isn't good enough when those teams are mostly the bottom half of IA football. I'm fine with us being an 11-15 type team. But I don't know if we are. The prospect of a BCS bowl scares the shit out of me if its against anyone other than Ark.

UF has too much speed on D. LSU is the same.

I think we could handle OU (even if they get that #28 freak back in form by game time). We would do well against the ACC champ - but I don't think we'll get a rematch with GT.

Sad to say, but we'd have trouble with both WVU and UL. WVU has those two nuts in the backfield who have crazy speed. If there is one thing we can't handle, its speed. UL managed to shut them down (i'll consider WVU's second loss a fluke). UL has a pretty solid defense, and a killer passing game, which leads to a long new year's for Irish fans.

As for the 820 SAT - didn't i score more than that on the math alone =)
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 9:55 am | #

Can I get confirmation as to whether the top 6 teams in the BCS rankings are in (as oppossed to eligible for) BCS games. In other words, if Rutgers beats WVU this weekend is it fact that ND would be left out of the BCS b/c all four of the at-large spots are accounted for (UM #3; LSU #5; L'Ville #6 and Boise St.)? Maybe the top 6 thing is an old rule or I just made it up... anyone?
J.R. | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 10:02 am | #

Obviously it doesn't take any more than an 820 to see that ND's Defense is slower than cold molasses going up a hill. It doesn't even take an 820 to count to five straight victories, or three the number of times that DJ has torched ND. Hmmm an 820 is probably just high enough to count to 61 as in the yards he got on 4th and 9. How about two, the Poodles wins over the cheeseburger in 2 tries. I would agree that and 820 probably isn't high enough to create the formula that is needed to estimate the number of cheeseburgers that charlie will eat this year
TrojanHorse98 | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 10:32 am | #

Yes, TrojanHorse, we know Jarrett can count to 61, 4, and 9. Congratulations! Now that we know the requirements above are all that's required for a degree from Southern Cal, I can enroll my 5 year old niece in the PhD program there.`

And nice job working in the reference to Charlie's weight. Is he fat? I never thought of it that way after watching him on the sidelines for 24 games in the past two years. Why, that was as shocking as it was to find out that Poodle is a self-absorbed primadonna who runs a lax program where he can recruit top-tier athletes with no discernable academic qualifications, thus inflating his win total despite a lack of coaching acumen.
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 11:48 am | #

J.R. - It looks like the top 6 is an old rule, although it is pretty confusing.

For this year, it looks like you either have to be top 3 or 4 to get an automatic bid if you're from BCS conference if you're not the conference champion. Right now that would leave LSU and L'ville as at large (unless Arkansas beats Florida and LSU moves up to #4).

For ND, it looks like we'll have to cheer for WVU to beat Rutgers so L'ville is the Big East Champion with an automatic bid (rather than an at large) and Florida to beat Arkansas to knock Arky out as LSU would then be the 2nd team from the SEC. It doesn't look like we can get to #8, but we should jump over Arky if they lose and Wisconsin shouldn't count as they are already ineligible (although given everyone's dislike for us, Oklahoma will probably jump over us if they win)

For the Bowl selection process, it looks like it may end up as follows (as long as there are no other losses in the playoffs):

NC - OSU VS. USC
Rose - UM vs. LSU (probably a better pick than ND at this point given their ranking and can you imagine the outcry if we're picked over them although it's got be intriguing and profitable to consider having ND in the Rose Bowl).
Sugar - UF/Arky vs. ND (I'm sure the Sugar Bowl would love to have ND come down to New Orleans, it would be an interesting match-up and it would hopefully be a bowl that we can win).
Orange - GT/WF vs. L'ville
Fiesta - OU/Nebraska vs. Boise State

I don't agree with all of the naysayers (and I'm not sure why we dropped as far as we did) given that our two losses (although not pretty) are to the number #2 and #3 teams in the country. We actually played USC even (24 to 23) after we gave them a 21 point advantage in the first period and if a few things had gone differently (dropped balls, fewer penalties, a field goal kicker, a lapse on the onside kick), the outcome may have been different (how about that for a positive outlook). At this point, we are certainly a 2nd tier team to the elite, but probably 5 - 10 given the current year of college football and hopefully we'll get a chance to prove it against Florida. The real test will be next year.

Go Irish!!
Paul Johnson | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 12:30 pm | #

My wife and her old roommate put up the X-mas tree and had homemade hot cocoa.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 1:08 pm | #

r.e. Shark laughing just before making the historic touchdown vs. UCLA.

I think Samardzija was laughing because he's a different kind of cat. And then he went out and made two big plays. The second one has made my all-time mental highlight reel. If laughing helped him get there, then good.
Joe | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 1:30 pm | #

Well I expected it to be closer but I'm not going to complain. So you lost to USC? They're the #2 team in the country! You guys will probably get to go to the most prestigious bowl, albeit perhaps vs. UM. The Rose Bowl will actually be shown on ABC and not on FOX. When was the last time you saw a college football game on the actual FOX network? Never? Are Jimmy Johnson and Howie Long going to call the games? Although, you know there will be some sideline hotties to give us the 411s that nobody cares about.

What's up with these "style points?" USC doesn't need them in the BCS. If they had won by single digits they still would be #2. Remember the AP doesn't factor into the BCS- Yet it's the AP that has been crying about USC not having "style" points all year. And now that they go out and win by double digits, people are now complaining about "style" points having too much leverage. The AP can't have it both ways. USC didn't try to beat ND to get style points. Any team wants to go out there and show their best and impress and show that they're the better team. They didn't run up the score. What's Urban Meyer complaining about? Does he really think a 28-14 score would look better against a below-average FL. St. team? I'm all for FL going to the NC if USC loses, but he's only fooling himself if he thinks they're as good as USC or Michigan.

Anyway, I like your shots at Jarrett. Is that what this game's come to? You think your football team is so bad that you have to compensate by attacking the other team's intelligence? You can't find anything objecive to rave about so you start attacking Jarrett's SAT scores? There's nothing classier than attacking a guy's smarts after you just got pummeled. Does it make you feel better? Do you get all warm and fuzzy talking about how Jarret isn't even smart enough to go to ND? The sad thing is, you probably do. Let's not lump USC in with most of college football when it comes to academic standards. USC is an excellent school. When USC and LSU shared the NC a couple years back USC had close to a 70% grad. rate compared to about a %30 for LSU. Wait, did I just acknowledge that they actually shared it?
the other guy | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 1:50 pm | #

Speaking of style points, what the hell was Charlie Weis wearing on the sideline? I like the guy, but you can't look that bad and expect your team to be inspired. It's that simple. If the coach looks terrible, then the whole team can't help but suffer and lose.
the other guy | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 1:58 pm | #

"Anyway, I like your shots at Jarrett. Is that what this game's come to? You think your football team is so bad that you have to compensate by attacking the other team's intelligence? You can't find anything objecive to rave about so you start attacking Jarrett's SAT scores?"

None of us made an issue of it until he started mouthing off about how ND deemed him academically questionable due to those SAT scores, which are about equal to what you get by default when you write down your name. If he's going to whine about having an average GPA and bad SAT scores and being termed academically ineligible for ND how bitter it makes him towards the program, then we are within our rights to comment on those statements. It's not like we pulled it out of our asses. He said it.

But as for the people rooting for USC over OSU, I'm afraid I can't join you. If USC wins the national championship, wouldn't that vault them out of the current tie with Notre Dame for the most championships? I don't want Pete Carroll to have that. At all.
Heather | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 2:44 pm | #

Yeah, because Pete Carroll is a terrible person. He definately cheats -I mean he had to have had something to do with the Reggie Bush thing, right? There's no way a team can be THAT good yere-in and year-out unless he's cheating. Start realizing that there's football outside of South Bend -and other players and coached who are better than your own. Albeit Weis is one of the best.

As for Jarrett, he wasn't whining about it. That would be you guys. He was asked about it and he gave a short response. He didn't rip on Notre Dame. All he said was that there was extra incentive for him since ND pulled his scholarship. That's completely understandable. But you guys had to take it beyond the next level. As far as being "within your rights" I'm pretty sure there's no barrier for saying anything that's not "within your rights." It's just a sad commentary on some ND fans and a bad representation for your school. Don't act all high and mighty -you're no Berekely.
the other guy | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 3:15 pm | #

First of all, I am not an ND fan, but I am not a hater either. I am just looking at this situation objectively: I can't believe that you guys can't recognize the fact that Weis (Wies?) is smug, condescending, and horribly overrated.

First of all, he talks down to people in his interviews and comes off as completely arrogant. I am not saying that not being likeable has anything to do with how well he can coach a fb team, but it certainly makes him difficult to cheer for.

Second, people in the media (ESPN) speak about him in reverential tones as if he had invented offensive football as we know it. And ND fans speak about him like he has restored the glory to the ND fb program. As far as I can tell, he has played 5 "tough" games in 2 years at ND: UM twice, USC twice, and Ohio State in the bowl. He is 1-4 in those games, And michigan sucked last year.

When was last time he really won a big game? When has he brought a team with inferior talent into a game and won by out-coaching the other team? Most importantly, when was the last time he won a game that you didn't expect him to win?
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 3:29 pm | #

Wow. I'm not a ND fan either, but Weis seemed to be a class act after the game. He admitted they got outplayed offensively, defensively, and on special teams. I agree that his fame may be premature but he's done a pretty good job with the talent he's had. The numbers don't lie, though. He will probably have a chance to prove himself if he can somehow pull out a Rose Bowl win.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 3:52 pm | #

I have to say, I'm in agreement with "the other guy". Now, before you start ripping me as not being a fan, not being loyal, stop it. The moniker alone should tell you how much of a fan I am, but besides that, I'm a '92 grad with plenty of broken glasses, furniture, etc. during ND losses to justify my being a fan.

I don't believe Jarrett made any inflamatory remarks at all; he just said it was extra motiviation. Ripping on the guy's SAT scores after he just torched us on the field just makes one sound like an arrogant prick. My freshman year at ND, we had two guys that were Prop 48 (don't ask me what that meant)- Tony Rice and Chris Zorich- that were MAJOR contributors to our last national championship team. In don't know their SAT scores, but I have to guess they were in the same vicinity as Jarrett. Are we going to rip them too? I doubt it.

Now, I don't know anything about Jarrett's character- he may be a complete tool like Drew Stanton or he may be a great kid like D-Walk. Either way, ripping on his SAT scores is BS after he killed us on Saturday. Grow up.
Irish Rat | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 3:53 pm | #

btw that previous post was mine
the other guy | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 3:54 pm | #

The Reggie Bush thing is called "lack of institutional control". Combined with the rent thing with Leinart and Jarrett, the arrests, etc., and yes, I think there is a case that Poodle runs a lax program knowing that there is no way the NCAA is going to crack down on one of the top teams in college football unless they literally catch him throwing suitcases of money at players (and no, I don't think he does that. By all accounts Petey is a tireless recruiter, relates well with kids, and has the built in advantage of recruting in Southern Cal).

As for Weis not winning a big game, the reason ND fans are so happy with what he's done is the fact that he's lost to #2 U$C, #2 Michigan, and tOSU. Those are games that he was supposed to lose. Unlike the Davieham era, the team isn't getting run off the field because he's doing a better job with what he has. He DID outcoach Pete last year, ND just came up short to a better team on a strange set of circumstances (brilliant pass to a well-covered AA receiver from a Heisman QB on 4th and 9, the SC coach calling a TO with none left and no penalty call, spotting the ball and getting the time back on the clock being impossible with no replay review since SC decided not to use it, Bush Push, etc.). Yes, USC beat ND both years, tOSU got them in the Fiesta Bowl and Michigan killed the Irish this year, but this "he hasn't won a big game" is crap when you look at the competition. Turn the question around other guy. When is the last time Poodle won a game he wasn't supposed to win?
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 4:45 pm | #

JohnWA, Easy fella. I was defending Weis -it was the guy before me who ripped on him. I did agree that the numbers are there -to be seen as they will- I did not criticize him. I think Weis is awesome. He totally outcoached Pete last year -HE was the reason they were in the game last year. He did what no other team was able to do -keep the offense off the field. But he was outcoached this year. USC's defensive scheme had the offense in circles. I don't know about the last time Pete won a game he wasn't supposed to win. I guess Oklahoma in the NC? Although Oklahoma had just been beaten, everyone still picked OU to win. And USC didn't just beat OU -they embarrassed them.

"Those are games that he was supposed to lose."

I'm not sure how sincere people are when they say this. Weis is suppossed to lose those games? Maybe he's an underdog, but he still has the opportunity to win. I wouldn't want a coach who is "suppossed" to lose games.

You can keep talking about this "lack of institutional control." Until ND comes even close to USC in football that's all you can do.
the other guy | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 5:40 pm | #

Sorry other guy, still just pissed about how badly the game went saturday. True about the Oklahoma game to an extent, except I think everyone who knows anything about college football (which, of course, means everyone but the talking heads at ESPN/ABC) knew USC was going to win that one, although I don't think anyone expected them to whoop the Sooners that badly.

When I say, "he's supposed to lose" that simply means that those teams are ranked ahead of ND for a reason and, therefore, should win unless ND plays perfectly. That's why it's called an upset. Did I expect the team to lose going into any of them? No. Was I disappointed that ND lost? Absolutely. Every team has an opportunity to win every game, but there is a reason that we call them upsets when an underdog wins. I'm sure USC fans were disappointed when they lost the NC game last year, but at least they knew that it was only the best of the best that could beat them and that's what has been happening with ND. I'm absolutely sincere when I say "he's supposed to lose". Just don't confuse that with "I'm satisfied with a loss" or "I expected to lose and my head coach to think that way as well".

The one thing in common with the top teams in college football for the past few years is 4-plus years of top notch recruiting that builds depth combined with consistent head coaching. Pete, Mack Brown, Sweatervest, and Carr have all been at their schools for years and have been consistently bringing in top 10 classes. Weis took a team that wasn't ranked and has coached them into the top 10-15 with only a handful of players that would be starting at any of the programs ND has lost to in the past two years. ND will be back going toe-to-toe with the USC's, tOSU's, and Michigans, just not as quickly (i.e., this year) as I had hoped.

GO IRISH!! WIN A BOWL GAME!
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 7:31 pm | #

I think when Anon said "win a game you didn't expect him to win" I know what he means. As a Buckeye fan, Jim Tressel won over Ohio when he took a mediocre team into Ann Arbor and upset a better michigan team. Then the next year, he took an inferior team into the NC game and upset Miami. Those were games he wasn't expected to win.

Greg Schiano led Rutgers to a win over Louisville, we didnt "expect" him to win that game

Steve Spurrier in his first year at S. Carolina beat Florida and Tennessee.

Mike Stoops and Arizona upset Cal this year.

Ron Prince and K-State upset Texas.

Houston Nutt takes Arkansas into Auburn and wins in the middle of a surprising season.

Mack Brown brings underdog Texas into the NC game and upsets USC in a classic.

Those are all games coached by guys who don't sniff the attention that Charlie gets at ND, yet all of them have one at least one "big" game in the past 2 years
WCT6 | Email | Homepage | 11.27.06 - 10:25 pm | #

Because none of them coach at ND. Love it or hate it the media always amplifies events at ND, be they positive or negative.

I agree that Weis has yet to prove himself on the field as one of the elite college coachs--that comes only with winning against the highest competition. The "genius" talk is ridiculous regarding any football coach, let alone Weis.

But he is a damn fine football coach, and a vast improvement over the previous few to occupy the position--hence many ND fans rush to cannonize him as the savior of the program. What he has been able to do with limited resources is an objective mark of a skilled and effective coach. As is often the case, neither extreme seems accurate to me--it seems foolish to prematurely anoint him as an elite college coach, just as it seems foolish to chalk up his general coaching acumen as the typical ND hype.

I think many confuse the subjective whimseys of the sports media as being representative of ND fans. All the ND fans I know can see that USC was the better team both years (as was michigan and OSU), but really like the direction the program is heading and are optimistic that eventualy the signature wins will come under Weis' watch.
duffman | Email | Homepage | 11.28.06 - 12:27 am | #

Weren't all the so-called experts last year saying we could start the season 0-6 or something like that. Thus, aren't those games that Weis won that he shouldn't have. Sure the teams turned out to be not as good as originally thought and ND was better than people thought, but doesn't that go to coaching?
ND'90 | Email | Homepage | 11.28.06 - 7:30 am | #

Right on, ND '90. ND winning AT #3 Michigan counts as winning a game he wasn't supposed to win. Same with Pitt- ND was at least a 7 point dog in that game and Pitt was ranked and playing at home. ND thrashed Pitt.

As it's been pointed out on this site before, games like the UM game last year that do A TON more damage to the psyche of a college football team than a pro team. ND beating Michigan had an effect on UM's going 7-5. No, I'm not saying it was THE reason. But it certainly contributed (I'd bet all of your salaries they don't lose at home to Minnesota last year if they'd beaten ND; same about the bowl game to Nebraska).

Look at MSU this year- they fell apart after ND came back and beat them. Now, their coach was a complete dumbass, but anyone who believes MSU should have gone 4-8 doesn't understand the psyche of 18-22 year olds.
Irish Rat | Email | Homepage | 11.28.06 - 11:45 am | #

Duffman, please tell me more about these limited resources, ND Is the richest program (at worst one of the three or four richest) in the country... just from the TV deal with NBC alone

To the rest, Games that PC won that he was not supposed to win..

In 2001 PC's first year after taking over for the Paul Hackett debacle (you guys can relate through Ty).. PC went 6-6 (inc a bowl loss) with a team that arguably should have been 3-8 at best. He started 1-4/2-5 and then reeled off four straight to close the reg season against after ND gave him his largest loss ever at SC by 11 points. Beating 7-4 UCLA 27-0 was a game he shouldn't have won in 2001; in 2002 the 40-3 win AT CU jump started the 2002 Orange Bowl 11-2 season and that came on the heels of a 24-17 win over a favored Auburn team to open the season. I think it was safe to say that he won 3 more games that he shouldn't have won in 2002, since then of course he has been favored all the time and has lost three of them. So rip him for that.. i'm sure someone will

Finally when the cheeseburger says that he would take a siesta if someone promised him 54 of the next 57 (well now its 54 of the next 56) my guess is PC would not take the deal, he wouldn't want to lose those three games, he'd take his chance that he could go 57-0..

Good luck in whomever you bowl with
TrojanHorse98 | Email | Homepage | 11.28.06 - 12:21 pm | #

The talent issue is a red herring. How can Rutgers and Boise State do it? Hell, a little closer to home - how've the Patriots been doing it? It's all about getting what you can out of what you have. I don't think we have, and whether it's attitude or scheme, or whatever, I lay that right at the coach staff's collective feet. Somebody said it well - we're a 10-15 team until we get the talent, the staff and the scheme aligned.
Bigdadda | Email | Homepage | 11.28.06 - 1:02 pm | #

That's the closest argument I've seen Bigdadda to dismissing the talent issue. However, I think there are a few differences. One, take the Patriots out of it. If you are playing in the pros, you're one of the best of the best in college to begin with, and even though the Patriots don't seem to get a lot of big names, the talent drop off between the teams usually isn't as pronounced as it is in college. That's before you even get into the argument that they are paid professionals working 60+ hour work weeks instead of 18-22 year old college students who only get coached for 20 hours a week.

Boise State doesn't play nearly the same schedule strength that the top Div-IA schools play. I'm not saying that it's not impressive that they won their slate or that they don't deserve a BCS bid, because it is and they do, but playing all but 3 games against BCS conference teams is different than playing in the WAC. It becomes a lot more physically demanding and having talent in the depth chart shows up a lot more when your schedule is tougher.

Rutgers is an interesting case, but they are basically the opposite of ND. They have a great defense but a mediocre offense with one star player. If they lose to WVU, they'll end up with the same record as ND, however, ND's losses were to the #2 and #2A teams in the country. How does that mean that Schiano gets more out of his talent than Charlie and his staff do?
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 11.28.06 - 2:34 pm | #

TrojanHorse98, by "limited resources" I was referring to the players that Weis has inherited upon his arrival at ND, and not to the facilities or television contracts of the University.

I perhaps erroneously assumed as much would be clear by the context of the statement, but to clarify, I was trying to prove my assertion that Weis is indeed a very good coach as evidenced by what he has been able to get out of what had previously been a vastly underachieving and complacent crop of inherited players.

The larger point being that, having said such, I do not consider him worthy of the hyperbolic accolades deserving of an elite college coach until he proves it by winning against the very best competition. I do, however, remain optimistic that in time, he will prove just that. Hope that spells it out for you. Congrats on the win and good luck against UCLA.
duffman | Email | Homepage | 11.28.06 - 2:59 pm | #

Rutgers and Boise can do it because they don't play USC and Michigan.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.28.06 - 11:21 pm | #