Burton played well, too.

What's happened to Zibby in the last 2 years?

Death is not an option: ND's O-Line or ND's linebackers, which do you take?

I gotta say, even with back-to-back-to-back top 15 recruiting classes I'm still fearful that next year won't be any better, though the schedule is softer. Even if we win the "winnable" games (e.g. San Diego State, Stanford, NC, Wash, Pitt, Navy, Pitt) we'll be exposed like we were in Charlie's first 2 years against Mich/MSU/Purdue/USC.

Can you imagine Pat Forde's comments if ND loses to Ty's Washington team next year?

I only saw 2 series where the defense played with any sort of emotion - getting the crowd into it - and they gave up a FG and touchdown on those drives.

The offense can't pick up blitzes and can't seem to run block. AA is supposed to be a gamebreaker ("the next Reggie Bush"), but I don't think he's had a play greater than 20 yards this year. Granted a lot of that is the line. All told, I'd say we have probably had fewer than 7 plays go for more than 20 yards this year.

I'm not looking to lay blame, I'm looking for improvement.

-Domer96
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:00 am | #

Domer 96 -
I too am already worried about next year. But we can't do anything but improve.

Mike - The cheerleaders were still cheering loud and often and the band was still playing all the right songs, but alas, the players were not doing uch of anything.
Subway Alumni | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:04 am | #

Unbelievable.

I was very busy this weekend and finally was able to read the comments in the previous post. Let me be blunt. Anyone who insults one of Charlie's kids will be taking a very long vacation from this blog. Just when I think that I've seen the worst from the asshole contingent of Notre Dame fans, some of you go ahead and lower the bar.

That type of behavior, alcohol-induced or otherwise, is completely unacceptable and uncalled for.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:28 am | #

(Sorry if this is a duplicate post)

I was talking with my Dad the other day (ND '47) and he said he heard from some other "old-timers" (some in the administration) that there's talk of adjusting of the football scholarship program.

This would place more emphasis on graduation/education, etc. and ultimately restructuring the program more along the lines of what Holy Cross has done.

I thought this was nuts, but given the way the season is going I'm getting a little worried.
Joel | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:31 am | #

"Just when I think that I've seen the worst from the asshole contingent of Notre Dame fans, some of you go ahead and lower the bar."


I would rather believe that they're not really Notre Dame fans. Isn't there suach a thing as disqualification?
Shadow Hawkins | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:43 am | #

Right before the navy game the Washington Post had a piece on the ND v. Navy series. They did come clean by stating the Irish have ONLY 9 5th Seniors on scholarship, 6 - 4th years, 13 juniors, while only using 71 of the 85 allowed. 14 unused scholarships...While the play has been disheartening and extremely frustrating to watch...I want to know more about what this scholarship stuff means...This has got to be akin to being on NCAA Probation.
AC | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:44 am | #

AC,
I agree -- I'd like to better understand this unused scholarship business. My Big 10 alum husband is incredulous that we could have fewer than 85 scholarship players -- he says that just doesn't happen. I don't know enough to debate the issue. Has anyone looked at and analyzed this across teams? If we have 71, is that completely atypical or do others also go with fewer than 85? What causes this? Transfers? Decommits? Not offering the full boatload? Sorry to be ignorant -- BGS is a great educational resource for me and I appreciate all you guys so much (with the exception of a couple dimwits yesterday who almost ruined the thread for us all with the inclusion of the crap about the Weis children -- luckily Voice got us to a better place with the naming of the Duke game. I loved that and still humbly love my contribution: the "Two Wins or Bust" Bowl). I'll check back and I thank you in advance for helping me understand this scholarship thing...
Love Thee Notre Dame | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:06 am | #

The "We may be slow, but we're dumb" bowl.
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:07 am | #

I went to Holy Cross (class of '05). It was tough to not have a very strong football team while I was there...from 2001-2005 we were nothing more than pathetic. Our basketball team, however was great, and the patriot league works well for our athletics program. I swam for four years, and know the Patriot League athletic league well...I liked it...there was a focus on academics rather and a strong athletic program (ie. the basketball team) was a major plus.


My father went to ND (class of 75) and this season has been rough on him...(Thus my link to the university)

but in terms of reworking the scholarship system...it is true that ND is a football legacy, but there comes a point where you much draw the line in the sand and decide what you want your diplomas to be worth. I know for a fact that a Holy Cross education, despite our lackluster football team, goes much further than say a FSU, UF, of OSU degree (regardless of what their fans and alumni may say).

Its great to have a good football program, and it brings it a lot of money to the school, but at the cost of devaluing your education and the national image of the school, I’m not sure it would be worth it.

Its all what you want of your university I guess. If you are willing to sacrifice academics for athletics than I guess you are missing the point of college.

anyways..just my thoughts on the matter...
Ryan | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:07 am | #

Pat -
You are a better man than I, if you suffered through 995 comment posts at last count.
I agree, when you have a popular public forum like BGS, you are going to get drunken idiots. Whether they are Notre Dame fans or some of the morons that crawl out from rocks come September.
I feel for Charlie Jr. at school.
Go IRISH.
Subway Alumni | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:09 am | #

Are some people actually claiming that Notre Dame needs to have STRICTER admissions/graduation guidelines for its athletic programss?? Last I checked ND had one of the highest graduation rates among D-I schools for it's athletes, especially for African American athletes. We are a premier academic institution with a (typically) very good football team. Why change either way? I don't buy the sentiment that we need to loosen standards to get "better" athletes, but we sure don't need to tighten them. My degree does not have any less value or worth than that of someone who graduated 45 years ago.

On the question of scholarships, Charlie gave out 4 scholarships this year to walk-ons. I thought he gave out 4 because he only had 4 to give out. Did I misinterpret that? Did he really have 14 to give out (11 at the start of the season before Jones et al. transferred)?
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:18 am | #

Programs. Its.

It's early.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:19 am | #

They are here to play football. If it wasn't for football, they wouldn't have a scholie in the first place. I could care less about what job they get if they don't go to the NFL, that is not my problem.
Matthew | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:25 am | #

Chris Stewart deserves a nod as well, from what I recall.

Domer 96, some of Allen's (and Aldridge's) troubles are also coming from a lack of downfield blocking: he'll spring a run, but it goes for 8-11 because there's no space at the second level. (This was especially vivid in the Navy game, I think.) This isn't just the linemen, but it's something the young WRs in particular will have to improve at.
John | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:32 am | #

Im just commenting that if you chose to lower standards in the future because ppl think that will help win games, it will only hurt the academics.

ND has been able to do both successfully forever, but as a student/alumni, what would you rather have...strict academics and a average team, or lower standards and a national championship. (chose reality over heart here)

The next few years will be telling...to see if Weis can bring in talent and intellect.

I am an adjunct at a University in New England. I know from experience, that many the students here on academic scholarships are not at the same level academically than the majority of the student body. There are, of course, those who surprise you, but even the smartest ones use athletics to get out of doing work etc.

If you can find a good balance between academics and athletics you can succeed both in the classroom and on the playing field...You cant ask for everyone to have a 4.0, but you can hope that all will all graduate. The football team, playing on such a national level, reflects the university to in a major way. The fault of college athletics is that may 'student athletes' use this as a practice run for the pros...Unfortunately, as we have seen with our own players (Walker, for example) This does not always work...You want them to be able to succeed after they graduate.

ND should keep its high standards and just suck up the losses. Kids dont want to work these days, and its no wonder that the best athletes who see a potential professional contract would opt for a place with low academic standards where they do not risk losing playing time because their grades are pathetic.

Who cares? Do you really want these kids on your team? I would rather have a bunch of smart, clean cut guys who dont get into trouble, and who have winning seasons but dont necessarily win the NC every year. Navy and Air Force do it...

Why does it really matter if you cant compete with Michigan or OSU...Thats what we all want, but in today's world I dont think that it is a reality...

I could, of course, take this all back next year...but for now thats how i feel.
Ryan | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:34 am | #

I think its great that you care about academics, but the REALITY of the situation is that football is what its all about. 7-5 isn't going to get that job done even if they do graduate. This is not Northwestern. If you want to support high academics with decent sports follow them.
Matthew | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:37 am | #

its not northwestern? ND grads think that your university is the end all be all of the academic world...explain this obvious contradiction
Ryan | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:39 am | #

ND should allow JUCOs. It's the only way to plug in new guys who have proved they can play college football and not wait for freshmen to mature for two or three years.

This season makes me sad... times are blue.
Fighting Binny | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:46 am | #

I'd like to do an experiment:

Take a team like Michigan and put them in ND's shoes. Remove Hart and Henne for the whole season, and replace them with Frosh and Sophs. Take away Manningham and replace him with a Frosh. Then, remove a couple of O-line starters. Lastly, take the junior and senior classes and remove a dozen of the most talented guys, including those who might fill those holes in the O-line. Throw in a bit more inexperience at some key positions on D.

What's Michigan's record now? I'd say 3-8, 4-7.

I'm not picking on Michigan, and I'm not saying we should be losing to Navy and Air Force. I'm just saying that there are some pretty serious extenuating circumstances going on here. This is hard to stomach, but it's not inexplicable.

It's not time to panic.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 10:56 am | #

ok, we are horrible...a horrible football team. The AF game was about as bad as it gets. I never thought Id see academy players mocking us and having the time of their lives with a whole quarter to go!

I appreciate CW's efforts to recruit but I dont see how 25 freshman will turn this team around next year. These guys dont play with any emotion! It's unbelievable. They expect to lose. Now, granted, it's been a tough season but you have to show up, man! These guys get out muscled by dudes half their size. It's ridiculous. All year I've dealt with this but I am now officially worried about the future. Was Brady and Company that good last year those left behind just suck?
felipe | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:11 am | #

Andy Cross, I will keep reading this site even if Notre Dame doesn't win a game over the next 4 years. Pat, Jay, and everybody else who contributes to this site-- keep up the great work.
me | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:15 am | #

and someone please give me a good reason as to why Schwap continues to start? Is Schmidt that far behind? Schwap is a comedy of errors every Saturday.

And Carlson? Talk about playing to the level of your competition (as in his teammates in practice). He looks like a career backup with oven mit hands. Even his TD catch looked awkward. It's sad, that Grimes drops three passes in a row and doesn't get benched. WR depth is alarming.

I'm pissed, yes. But before you all think I'm ranting I understand what this team is going through. I played college soccer and finished my senior year 1-18. After so many losses you start to think you suck...and its hard to separate the good players from the scrubs in practice. Please God...help us!
felipe | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:18 am | #

"Im just commenting that if you chose to lower standards in the future because ppl think that will help win games, it will only hurt the academics. "

why would we need to lower standards when we're already bringing in elite talent? it's not the quality of players we're bringing in that's the problem right now.

"Do you really want these kids on your team? I would rather have a bunch of smart, clean cut guys who dont get into trouble,"

tiring judgmental garbage-- a man's worth cannot and should not be summed up by his appearance, especially in college where you're supposed to experiment with facial hair and growing out your dreads. lock up trevor laws, right?

"The fault of college athletics is that may 'student athletes' use this as a practice run for the pros...Unfortunately, as we have seen with our own players (Walker, for example) This does not always work...You want them to be able to succeed after they graduate."

How do you define success? Last I heard walker was playing on the practice squad for Houston. He's making a living doing something he loves doing. I'm sure he learned a lot during his time at Notre Dame. A diploma is not going to change what you learn and magically qualify everything--it's going to help you get a job. Did Walker need that? Do a lot of student atheletes need that? No, they need to take advantages of opportunies when they arise. Walker has the rest of his life to go back and finish his degree if he wants to. For the time being he is successful and contributing to an NFL team.

"Kids dont want to work these days."

Right and all old people sit around and make sweeping generalizations all day long these days.
Red | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:25 am | #

its not northwestern? ND grads think that your university is the end all be all of the academic world...explain this obvious contradiction

Nd grads, on this topic, are obviously incorrect.
Anon | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:30 am | #

If we can't make fun of Charlie's kids anymore (of which I never did. just look at my posts) is Charlie's weight still open to us?

I keed, I keed.
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:34 am | #

Regarding WR depth AND academic issues... CW said in his post-game presser that the reason we did not see Kamara on Saturday is because he didn't get an "academic issue" resolved in time to practice this week. Since he didn't practice, he didn't play.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:37 am | #

Notre Dame has always had extraordinarily high academic standards for its athletes, and all that did was garner a boatload of national championships, Heisman winners, All-Americans, NFL superstars, College and Pro Football Hall of Famers, etc., etc., etc. So now I am hearing that our high standards are why we can't compete on the highest of levels?! How do you come up with that nonsense? Intelligent football players have always been coveted by coaches and they always will be. Notre Dame is a national university and, appropriately, she recruits nationally. We need just 22 blue chip football players/ outstanding students each year. From sea-to-shining-sea we have traditionally found these young men, and the University has prospered beyond belief. Aside from the Anti-Catholics, one major reason Notre Dame has been historically despised by so many is because our big, fast, talented and intelligent players usually lay the wood to big, fast, talented and DUMB football players. Fans of other schools have been livid that even after their schools have sold their souls to the Devil in order to field what they consider the best possible teams, Notre Dame, overall, kicks their asses! If our players are lacking anything right now, I would say it is probably HEART. So, while scouring the country for excellent student athletes, it is also imperative that recruits have that inner fire and commitment that Notre Dame teams and players have exhibited in such abundance for so many years. The Notre Dame Spirit is famous worldwide. That said, it is incumbent on the coaches to extract all of that intelligence, talent, and heart in order to render champions. It's a simple formula, really, but if any ingredient is missing, disappointment and frustration abounds.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:38 am | #

Thank you, Pat. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't say a prayer thanking the Lord for all of the blessings that any child brings to a family. The idiot(s) that were posting in that thread made me physically sick to my stomach. There is no place in the world for that, and I truly believe that karma will be a b**** for those spouting it.
graNDFan | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:45 am | #

Bill Cowher in 2009?

If he can't get our underachievers going, no one can.

Maybe he knows some good OL, STeams coaches, too.
ThE LoSt BoY | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 11:51 am | #

Hey, if the kid is so off-limits maybe Charlie shouldn't drag him out on the field with the headphones on every game.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 12:02 pm | #

@ Hal:

Take a team like Michigan and put them in ND's shoes. Remove Hart and Henne for the whole season, and replace them with Frosh and Sophs. Take away Manningham and replace him with a Frosh. Then, remove a couple of O-line starters. Lastly, take the junior and senior classes and remove a dozen of the most talented guys, including those who might fill those holes in the O-line. Throw in a bit more inexperience at some key positions on D.

What's Michigan's record now? I'd say 3-8, 4-7.

... not to mention eliminate a total of 15 scholarship players, bring in a defensive coordinator with a whole new scheme, make Mallet have offseason surgery on his throwing arm with both of the underclassmen tailbacks coming off of injuries as well, put together a brutally difficult schedule to start the season, have a bunch of key guys get banged up at various times during the year, etc. etc. Things can snowball on you pretty easily in that kind of situation.

I've been really down in the dumps the last couple of weeks, so thanks for this. It's the most compelling bit of Weis apologetics I've read in a while ...
John | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 12:03 pm | #

"I was talking with my Dad the other day (ND '47) and he said he heard from some other "old-timers" (some in the administration) that there's talk of adjusting of the football scholarship program" from Joel.

These type of comments concern me. I thought the removal of Malloy, TY, and associates ended the obvious policy of 'de-emphasys' of the football program. As subsequent posts have pointed out, the current focus on academics are clearly eneough to meet the standards of having a respectable, quality university.

A commitment to excellence in all areas of religion, academics, and football are the cornerstone of the university. I hope al these 'old timers' or whoever are cognizant of the fact that this unique blend keeps the students and the alumni around as well as pays for most infrastructure of the university.

To devolve ND from football would mean in a not so short future a decline in all aspects of the University from enrollment, alumni giving, and academic quality.
Peter | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 12:07 pm | #

Charlie is getting a lot of barbs lately, mostly deserved. But, what about the Defensive Dis-Coordinator? I could understand the Navy surprising the team with the option. But, now Air Force? 40+ points? At home? Just a week later?

Corwin has been a disappointment and needs to take his lumps, along with Charlie, Latina, Clausen, Timmy Z, etc... and always adding Powlus to this list makes some sort of cathartic sense, in a nonsence way.
George | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:17 pm | #

I stopped at someone's house after the game. He didn't get a chance to watch it live, so he TiVo'd it. He made me promise not to tell him how it ended.

I have a good poker face, but the whole time I was thinking "You poor bastard."
marchand chronicles | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:19 pm | #

Anon - I never said that people couldn't criticize Charlie's decision to have his son on the sideline. I said that we're not going to tolerate shots at Charlie Jr. or Hannah.

But since no one asked, I think that the criticisms of Charlie having his son on the sideline with headphones and a wristband are about as stupid as criticizing his choice of gameday slacks or what tie he wears to the press conference. It is completely irrelevant to his job as head football coach.

Furthermore, given the legal troubles of both Andy Reid and Bill Belichick's sons and the tragic loss of Tony Dungy's son, I have a hard time seeing why Charlie including his son more in his life is somehow a negative. It has no discernible impact on the performance of the team and the only reason people even bring it up is because they see him on the sidelines and feel the need to generate yet another scapegoat.

Charlie Jr. gets to listen in, when he wants, to the conversation between the booth and the sideline coaches. Big deal. He has a wrist band play sheet so he can figure out what plays are being called. Big deal. Considering that Charlie is away from his family every day from 4AM until probably 9 or 10PM, I don't see the harm in him wanting to have at least one family member close by on Saturday.

The only reason people are bitching about it is because the team is losing. If ND were winning, everyone would point to it as another example of Charlie "getting it".
Pat | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:20 pm | #

Notre Dame is favored by only five against Duke. That tells you all you need to know.
John | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:26 pm | #

The only reason people are bitching about it is because the team is losing. If ND were winning, everyone would point to it as another example of Charlie "getting it".

Well, if there's one thing we can (or at least should) agree on at this point, it's that Carlie doesn't "get it."
Anon | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:27 pm | #

I wouldn't want to be a head coach in college or the pros. The money can be great... even astounding, but it seems like your family life gets sacrificed way too much for X's and O's.
Fighting Binny | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:33 pm | #

John

Absolutely agree on level 2 blocking springing long runs. Show me a long run at any level, and there's going to be downfield blocking (either OL, TE/WR/FB). I didn't mean to hang the lack of long runs solely on the OL.

Look, stop making excuses and playing woulda-coulda-shoulda. The fact is, we're 1-9. If we're not using the full complement on schollies, that's self-imposed. While the small Jr/Sr classes may not entirely be the current coaches "fault", the team should still be able to perform basic skills like a vanilla-blitz pickup 10 games into the season or bust a designed run for more than 20 yards.

I've never played nor coached competitive football, so all I'm doing is arm-chair coaching. It just seems to me that the level of execution 10 games into the season is about where it was going into the season.
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:33 pm | #

Domer96,
I agree with you on all your assessements except one, Armando Allen does look good so far on offense. He seem to be the only one playing with heart. Now my problem is that Charlie weis is getting out coached every week. Anybody who is saying that this whole year is on inexperience and Ty recruits, schedule and all, you must be out of your mind, this is a COACHING problem. I don't see any improvement anytime soon. Now Duke will come to town to get their win. By the way our offensive line might be bad, but how about designing running plays that works. As for lowering standards for players, I hope we don't go that route. This year's failure I will not attribute to the players but on Weis and his decision to go with a freshman QB that wasn't ready for ND schedule. Go Irish
Jean | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:37 pm | #

@ Domer96:

It just seems to me that the level of execution 10 games into the season is about where it was going into the season.

Right on - and that, even more than the overall lack of energy, is what worries me the most. Like I've said, you think this team wouldn't lose 33-3 to Georgia Tech if they played next week? 31-10 to Penn State? 38-0 to Michigan and USC?

All I'm saying is that maybe - MAYBE - the ultimate explanation for this is a snowball (shitball?) effect resulting from a zillion things going wrong right off the bat. That doesn't excuse the coaching staff's failing to right the ship (or even stop the leakage), but it does explain why the seas were so stormy - and the hull so rickety - in the first place.

Or maybe I'm just in denial again.
John | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:40 pm | #

I read this blog a lot, because its really good and most of the fans are civil (save the idiots attacking CW's kids), but I think you guys are missing a few things.

Chad Henne has missed 4 full games, and major parts of 3 others. hart has missed a few as well. We're starting a true Soph (justin Born) and a redhsirt frosh (Schilling) on the line, we've lost our top two RG's. The only two older starters are Long and Kraus. We're out our startingg TE (Massey) and playing a Sophmore in his stead (Butler).

We start 4 seniors on offense (Henne, Hart, Long and Kraus) and two have been out often. We start 4 on defense (Crable, Adams, Englemon and C. Graham). So we're not exactly and older team. And it wasn't that long ago that Michigan won the BT starting a true freshman at QB and a true freshman at RB.

CW may or may not turn it around, but there is more talent on this team than a 1-9 record indicates. He definitely had some adversity handed to him by Ty's poor recruiting, but ND should be at least 5-7 or 6-6 this year. The O-line is underperforming tremendously, the defense has yet to gel, and the best player (Laws) is graduating. I think making excuses for CW is whistling past the graveyard, but that's my outside opinion, so take it FWIW
DCwolverine | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:49 pm | #

Best blog. Worst team.
Oh, the irony.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:53 pm | #

Are we back to the academic standards routine again? Crap. Don't we go through this every year?

There are many reasons we're losing this year--academic standards is not one of them.

Here's a highly relevant Observer article from 2004.

http://media.www.ndsmcobserver.c...ll- 659734.shtml

Plus, complaining about being handicapped by academic standards makes one sound like Nick Saban.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007...-colleges- bulls

(Irony is a beautiful thing, no?)
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 1:54 pm | #

@ DCwolverine:

I don't think anybody is trying to make excuses; we're just trying to UNDERSTAND what the hell has happened. Just like UM fans will use youth and injuries as part - PART! - of the way you get a handle on your own disappointing season; surely we're allowed to do the same for ours.

Lloyd Carr and his staff did a great job of getting UM on track after that awful start. Weis and Co. have failed miserably in their attempt to do the same. But next year is a new year, and maybe - MAYBE - the very different circumstances that will surround this team in '08 will make for similarly different results. A man can hope, right?
John | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 2:06 pm | #

DCWolverine,

I second what John said. And I agree that ND should probably be at 3-6, 4-5 territory, given their talent.

My point, though, is that Michigan, for all its personnel issues has two major advantages on ND: (1) experience at the most important skil positions (2) the benefit of four full, competant recruiting classes to from which to draw starters.

I'm not slagging Michigan in any way, and I'm not in any way dismissing the 1-9. I'm just saying that it's a big pig that's passing through this snake, and it's only 2/3s of the way out.


Put another way: It's bad, but it's not as bad as it appears.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 2:24 pm | #

It's bad, but it's not as bad as it appears.

That's not saying much, of course ...
John | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 2:28 pm | #

Just blame it all on Willingham and it will be okay...

Ha, serves 'em right.
Your Mom | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 2:31 pm | #

"Everything changes a little and it should. Good ain't forever, and bad ain't for good."
tjnd88 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 2:43 pm | #

DCwolverine, I watched some of the UM / UW game on Saturday, and it was pretty obvious the difference that Hart and Henne make to your team. I don't want to get into hypothetical situations with the Wolverines playing without certain players. Your conclusion about Weis may indeed be correct, but I think it is a year too soon to say. Pretty or not, the Irish went to the BCS in each of his first two seasons.

Maybe my question for you would be about the role of competition in practice. It seems like when you have inexperienced players at some positions, but a full roster, you have a decent chance of developing players in practice. This year for ND, there's no part of the team that qualifies as "veteran". QBs? WRs? TEs? RBs? Certainly not the o-line. The same is true on the defense. There are a handful of decent players scattered across the roster, but it sure looks like Weis and his staff are having to build a team from scratch.

That seems to dovetail with the question early in this thread about the 85-scholarship limit. If you can only give out 25 scholarships per year and you have tiny upper classes, all you can do is max out the incoming classes and seek transfers into the existing ones. ND does not allow for junior college transfers, so Bermenderfer (sp?) from Northwestern is the only transfer. From what I understand, the result has to be fewer than 85 scholarships and thus fewer than the ideal number of competitors in practice.

One thing that bothers me about this picture is that folks heap all the blame for the small roster on the previous coaches. They brought in smaller classes, especially in certain positions, but what really caused the shortfall was the abrupt change of coaches. Another abrupt change would only prolong the mess.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 2:54 pm | #

@ Lou ntL:

One thing that bothers me about this picture is that folks heap all the blame for the small roster on the previous coaches. They brought in smaller classes, especially in certain positions, but what really caused the shortfall was the abrupt change of coaches. Another abrupt change would only prolong the mess.

Right on. The number of players who left the team during the Ty-to-Charlie transition would have put the scholarship numbers right around the max. Willingham's recruiting was definitely bad, but it's clearly not the SOLE reason the Jr/Sr/5th Yr classes are so thin.
John | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 3:03 pm | #

DC Wolverine,

By the way, it's nice swapping civilized, thoughtful messages with you, DC. Interesting to hear what people outside the ND bubble are seeing and thinking.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 3:41 pm | #

Good point, Hal. I meant to throw a note of thanks to DCwolverine in my message, but got carried away.

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John, when you noted that ND is only favored by 5 points over Duke, I have to say I was surprised that ND is favored. I know it sounds pessimistic, but what I saw against Air Force left me thinking that the only way the Irish can win is if the other team gives the game away (i.e. UCLA). Here's hoping Duke is generous.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 3:51 pm | #

After 10 games this season, Charlie Weis cannot figure out why the players aren't getting better. He says:

"Is the problem the teacher or is the problem the student? Somewhere along the line there's a problem somewhere".

I think Charlie needs to get help. Best choice: Lou, yes that Lou. In the offseason, Lou needs to get together with Charlie and give him lessons. Charlie needs to be humble enough to try to get help.
Thomas | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 4:06 pm | #

Thomas,

I don't think humility is the problem. Weis has never professed to have all the answers. Indeed, he's spent a good amount of his time talking to other coaches about how to go about various aspects of head coaching.

The people who really lack humility, I would submit, are those who have never coached football yet still think they have something valuable to say to Weis about managing the Notre Dame team.

When Clausen started completing passes at a good clip in the AF game, I allowed myself to think, "This is where the whole turnaround starts."

I was wrong, but that moment is coming soon -- perhaps this week.

Weis is our man, and he's going to take us there.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 4:43 pm | #

No problem. Enjoy the blog because the writing is good and the posters, for the most part, are smart and incisive.
DCwolverine | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 4:51 pm | #

We're short ten scholarship athletes because:
* JUCO players typically do not have the necessary academic profile to get into ND, plus they're typically at a JUCO because they're don't fit the typical profile of an ND student. All of that adds up to no ready pool of replacements for class shortages
* Among Ty's other faults, he was not an energetic recruiter under the best of circumstances, and he completely bailed on the '04-'05 recruiting season. Charlie stayed with the Pats through the Super Bowl, but even if he hadn't, it's doubtful he would have made much of a dent in the shortfall in that class.
* We lost three players late in the last recruiting season.
* There was some turnover during the coaching transition (but note that only one of the attrited players has made any impact at the major D1 level).
* Weis doesn't hand out walk-on scholarships to just anyone.

I think the largest part of the blame has to go to the non-performance of the previous coaching staff.
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 5:53 pm | #

Hal is either delusional or Charlie's agent.

Also, the argument that someone who isn't a coach shouldn't criticize Weis is absurd.

I'm not a pilot but if I see a guy missing the runway every time he lands I'm pretty sure I can figure out he isn't too great as a pilot. If a doctor's sick patients never improve the odds are the person isn't a good doctor. Some things are obvious like the fact Weis has completely lost the team and openly admits he doesn't have a clue what is happening.

Do we really need years of coaching experience to realize this is one of the worst coaching jobs in Notre Dame history? Suddenly Bob Davie looks brilliant (okay, I take that back. I went too far with that comment and I apologize). I don't care how many freshmen we have there is no way we should get slapped around by Navy and Air Force.

The people around Duke truly believe they have a great chance to win on Saturday in South Bend. That right there should tell you all you need to know about the job Charlie Weis is doing.

Let's bring in his recruits, put up with another year of suffering and then find someone who actually has experience as a head coach and can do something with the talent we have. Only then will ND ever compete against the USCs of the world.
shawn | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 6:01 pm | #

I hope my opinion about Charlie Jr. being up in the stands with his mother wasn't construed as mean-spirited. When I first spotted him on the sideline 3 years ago, I had visions of some 300+ lb. player(s) lumbering into the sidelines at full speed right into him. From my viewpoint, it was more of a safety issue. However, he certainly has grown a lot since that time and could likely handle himself should such a situation occur.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 6:56 pm | #

The comments about Lou Holtz are interesting. Is this the same Lou Holtz who lost 11 games in his last three seasons after the talent started to thin out??
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 7:40 pm | #

I see so many things written about Weis and his lack of ability to coach. The man has coached his entire adult life and he has coached at the highest level. Surely, he wouldnt have been given the responsibility of calling plays for the Patriots if he didnt know how to coach. Execution the manner style or result of performance. A coach can tell a player what to do, he can have the player do that a number of times and if that player fails to execute during the game then it doesnt matter what the coach told him. We do not execute, we dont block at the line of scrimmage, we dont block downfield, we dont concentrate and catch passes, we dont tackle. We dont execute. Navy and Air Force beat us because they executed every play with precision. One missed assignment is all that is needed. I see linemen standing up when the ball carrier is on the ground, I see backs miss blocks on rushing defenders, I see linemen missing blocks on screen passes and wideouts not blocking downfield. I see missed execution all the time. Now, I dont know what goes on in practice, I am not privy to that information. Most of us arent. Weis has experience as a head coach, he has been one for three years now. I can understand the frustration with Weis, he is the head coach and it all falls on him, but pride and effort have to be self-induced. Some of these guys dont look like they give a damn that they are this bad. You can coach X's and O's, you cant coach heart.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 8:48 pm | #

Shawn,

I'm neither Charlie's agent nor delusional. I'm simply doing what rational adults do when faced with a bad situation: they calm down and put things in perspective.

One way to do this, as Doug notes above, is to take comfort that most things revert to form. Charlie has been a winner just about everywhere he's gone, and I believe he'll be back to those ways soon. That's not unreasonable. In fact, that's a more reasonable reaction to this season than the calls for this or that coach's head or the "insights" about Charlie's lack of humility.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:47 pm | #

Oh, I almost forgot: Weis is our man, and he's going to take us there.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.12.07 - 9:50 pm | #

I don't want to go where Charlie is taking us.
AngryIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.13.07 - 2:55 am | #

Sometimes you drive through the swamp to get to the interstate, Angry. But we'll get there.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.13.07 - 9:13 am | #

Hal,
that is great for you to believe that. First you have to admit that Charlie did a lousy job this year. Please show me anything that tells you that since game one up to now there have been improvements?
Jean | Email | Homepage | 11.13.07 - 9:32 am | #

Jean,

I'm not stupid, Jean. Everyone understands that Charlie's made some major mistakes, the most prominent of which is overestimating what he could accomplish this year.

But here's why I'm still bullish:
The Irish seem to have a multitude of huge problems, but I believe they've really only got one--the O-line. And the line is so monumentally bad, that it poisons just about every other aspect of the game.

I remember when I was learning to play golf, my father would make me drop my ball in the good stuff after a bad shot, rather than hitting off tree roots and cart paths. His rationale: The woods makes people do stupid things, and he wanted me to learn to play smart.

ND's O-line futility means the team is in the woods 99% of the time, and this puts it in a position of having to hit miracle shots on a regular basis.

If we can fix the O-line, I think what looks like a multitude of problems will whittle down to a few manageable ones (kicking, for instance.)

Now fixing the O-line is not something that happens with a snap of the fingers, so I'm worried. But I believe it can be done, and I have faith that we'll get better. If that makes me stupid or pollyanna-ish, then so be it.

You ask for me to point to improvements. I would argue that the D in general and both the RB and QB position are looking more solid all the time.

There's plenty of room for improvement, but I think we'll see huge gains if we can get ourselves hitting off the good stuff more often.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.13.07 - 12:09 pm | #

Hal: It is nice to read your optimistic outlook. Maybe I am more on the pessimistic side, but the Defense (players and coaching staff) did not perform to ND standards against Navy and the Air Force. The Offense is not ranked up there and, as you know, it takes freshmen a while to get good. Football is a game that needs players with skill and heart, and it seems like most of the team is heart broken. So, most signs point to more pain. But, you may be right in your pollyanna-ish outlook.
Thomas | Email | Homepage | 11.13.07 - 1:49 pm | #

Thomas, and others, and I dont mean to be smartassed, because Thomas you say very many good things. We talk abouat Notre Dame standards. What are Notre Dame standards and who set them?
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.13.07 - 5:52 pm | #

Thomas,

I hear you about the defense. Agreed that they haven't performed as well as we'd like. But to be honest, they'd have to be the '85 Bears for us to have any chance at a good season, and that's not reasonable to expect from such a young team.

As it is, they look good for stretches, and they tend to wear down when they're on the field too long. Par for the course. It's also not surprising that the young 'uns showed some growing pains against the academies. Their styles of offense require discipline and experience to defend, and we're still learning about that.

I know I sound like an excuse maker for the team. I wish we were better, and I'm shocked at how bad we look. But as I look back, it's really all understandable.

At some point, the light's going to go on, and we'll be through this. I'm hoping this is the week that marks the beginning of the new era.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 11.13.07 - 8:36 pm | #

In case anyone is wondering, Willingham is 1-6 in the PAC 10. This is his third year. How long will it be before he starts interviewing?
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.13.07 - 9:17 pm | #