I think you could easily argue that if ND had pulled out a victory over USC in '05, the Irish would have been playing Texas for the NC. However, I doubt they could have handled VY any better than the Trojans did.
But USC struggled with Fresno State late in the season, and the head to head loss to ND surely would have had to propell us into the #2 spot (Yes, I remember 93, but those were slightly different circumstances. The media were falling all over themselves trying to get Bobby that NC).
Basically, I think ND would have faced Texas in the NC game and probably would have lost, but you just never know. Maybe Charlie could have gotten that team so jazzed for that game that they could have pulled it out. We might be talking about "what if Wodden DIDN'T knock down that pass?"
Gabe | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 2:55 pm | #

Very interesting.

How DID that ball that got knocked out of Leinart's arms manage to get out of bounds? That was one strange bounce, and frankly the kind of break I grew up believing the Irish always got.

That's my sense of entitlement talking.

Perhaps IT was karmic payback for the time that undersized ND DB somehow kept the big Army tight end out of the end zone about ten years ago.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:02 pm | #

Perhaps IT was karmic payback for the time that undersized ND DB somehow kept the big Army tight end out of the end zone about ten years ago.

That was simple mechanics -- the tight end did not turn toward the end zone, and Ivory Covington's momentum was enough to keep him from doing so.

The bounce -- that's one of those funny things...

What's more interesting is that the timekeeper was at the 20-yard line on the north end of the Stadium. No wonder he let the clock run out; he couldn't see the ball go out of bounds.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:06 pm | #

One thing I've always wondered about that game is on the play that Leinart got hit and the ball flew out of bounds and the clock was running down to zero, I distinctly remember seeing Reggie Bush or some other USC player signaling "timeout" right in the sideline judge's face when USC didnt have any timeouts remaining. Is there a penalty for this (ala Chris Webber faux timeout call)?
Freddy | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:18 pm | #

I've got one more "what if" for you guys...

What if the refs had ruled BQ down at the 1 on his TD scoring scramble? Would ND have scored on the next play? Would there have been enough time for USC to execute 4th and 9 or would the clock have run out on the 2nd down sack of Leinart?
redhawk kevin | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:18 pm | #

Freddy,

You are absolutely correct about the time-out. Heck, not only were USC players attempting to call a time-out, but USC coaches were down there too, also attempting the same. Not only did they not have a time-out, but coaches are not allowed to be down there by the refs.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:31 pm | #

"That was simple mechanics"

That's true. I guess that takes it out of the karmic sphere. Good for Army for going for the win, though.

What if...Trey Anastasio hadn't laid that Trojan out on Zbikowski's punt return TD? Then the Irish wouldn't have gotten that huge boost at the end of the first half.

What if Nick Lachey hadn't been at the game? What if he pronounced his name 'Lackey' instead of 'Leshay'?
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:33 pm | #

What if Nick Lachey was dead? Would anyone notice? Would the world stop turning?
Brad | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:42 pm | #

Good for Army for going for the win, though.

Absolutely.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:45 pm | #

charlie lost his case
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:50 pm | #

One thing you're ignoring, is that IF the penalty was called on Bush, Southern Cal could have just kicked the fg to tie and won in OT. They didn't have to go for the td there.
Anonymous1 | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 3:58 pm | #

Wow. What a great series of topics for a blog. Keep them coming!

As interesting as the eternal debate about the final drive in the '05 USC game has been and will continue to be, other moments in that game haunt me more. I find myself mulling over the following:

What if Anthony Fazano held onto his first down (and more) catch late in the third quarter instead of giving up a fumble and a potential 7 points?

What if Brady could have completed the third down pass to Asaph Schwapp in the fourth quarter to keep the drive alive?

And the one that kills me the most...

Having picked up the first down, what if Brady were spotted on the one where his knee looks like it might have hit the ground on the final touchdown play with two minutes left? Presuming that the result of the drive was the same, would the extra time elapsed have made the difference at the end of the game?

Again...great idea for a series of blog posts. How about "What if Randy Moss had played for the Irish instead of going to jail?" or "What if the phantom clipping call on the Rocket TD return in the Orange Bowl against Colorado had gone uncalled?"
oak | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 4:14 pm | #

The ND - USC in 2005 is not 'legendary.' Maybe for college football and USC, but not for Notre Dame fans.

Just as the phantom fumble was not a legendary game, nor the Malcolm Johnson celebration call at Michigan - really anything that ends in a loss is not legendary.
Steve Belles | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 4:22 pm | #

Oh, one more thing, I looked it up the week after the game - the coaches and players calling a timeout USC did not have is, unfortunately, not a penalty. The referees did exactly what they were supposed to do - just ignore the people calling the timeout.
Steve Belles | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 4:24 pm | #

Guys,

I remember a game that I went to in 1997 when Rossum knocked the Navy WR out at the 1 yard line when time expired. I can't remember the Army game that you are talking about off the top of my head...anybody care to enlighten me?
Joel | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 4:35 pm | #

Not a big fan of revision-ism.

My revisionist decision is: if CW hires a decent or good DC at the outset, do we win the MNC in 2005? Do we have the tools (via 2 years of top D recruits that we didn't get) in 2008 to win the MNC?

Watching our D give up 600+ yards v. tOSU and an agile, accurate QB + burner WR's, I doubt we could have stopped TX, even is we squeaked Bu$h and the re$t of the $emi-pro'$.

Maybe it was scheme, but I think our DBackfield was too porous for a MNC run. Minter just made the job that much harder.

tOSU, LSU bowl games should tell you scheme + talent were lacking.

We will know the answer pretty quickly this season re: scheme.

CB instead of Minter is my revisionist dream.

Sigh.
ThE LoSt BoY | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 4:36 pm | #

Joel,

Army scored with less than 30 second left to bring the score to 20-21. They decide to go for two. They complete a pass to their tight end at the one foot mark, only to see Ivory Covington come flying in and deliver a perfect tackle, forcing him out of bounds without gaining an inch. If the tight end had managed any forward momentum whatsoever, he would have found the end zone.

Or, you could ignore everything I said, and just watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t...h? v=teO9oWwNSzc
Pete | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 4:58 pm | #

What if D.J. Fitzpatrick made that field goal that was wide-right? What if CW ran the clock out more on ND's last drive?
Sean | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 5:10 pm | #

But the Bush push was justified, because the grass was long, right?
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 5:19 pm | #

sitting in that corner of the stadium, at first it looked as if leinart intentionally the ball out of bounds when he knew he wasn't going to make it. i thought "touchback, irish win!" then i realized the ball went out on the other side of the official, and not close either (for them to mark it where they did, it would have had to hit the official, who was already signaling touchdown).

on the replay, you can clearly see the ball flying off mays' helmet, probably around the 3-yd line. not sure if in college it's forward progress or where the ball goes out, but if it's the latter, not sure sc would run another play without a timeout, just kick the fg right then.
yz | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 5:20 pm | #

What if we are really good this year? I like that one better.
PM | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 5:21 pm | #

"intenionally threw the ball"
yz | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 5:21 pm | #

also, it's irrelevant that they had no timeouts, it's a 15yd penalty for the coach being in the endzone.
yz | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 5:39 pm | #

I personally like Joe Subway's memory of Trey Anastasio. Must be a Phish fan. I think you were looking for "Chase."
Fitzwater | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 5:51 pm | #

What if someone would cut Ambrose Wooden a break and stop posting that horrible picture of him covering Dwayne Jarrett? It's bad enough that he has to see it posted by ND haters everywhere.
Don E. Brook | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 6:02 pm | #

Steve Belles, I couldn't disagree more. When it's a great game, it's a great game. Of course I would have liked ND to win, but they didn't. Either way, its an instant classic and legendary. Don't you think that Oklahoma fans think of the fiesta bowl as a legendary game even though they lost? Of course they do.
And if that penalty was called on Bush, it would have been even more legendary.

Also, im pretty sure it is a penalty if you call a timeout when you don't have one, but im not positive.
champ | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 6:10 pm | #

I'm with you champ. I have been at some great games including the Trojan Horse green jersey game and 06's UCLA and MSU games. Even though we lost, that '05 SC game was the best game I have ever attended. That whole evening, even the colors of the stadium and the sky as day light fade to hallogens was just surreal. I will never forget it.
Don E. Brook | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 6:32 pm | #

Even if all of the penalties were tacked on, wouldn't USC just have kicked the field goal and we would've just gone into OT? Doesn't seem like it would've really garaunteed us a victory...
Irish4eva | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 6:35 pm | #

Regardless, anyone who was there had a great time and left as satisfied as you possibly could with a loss. Hell, maybe this year we beat them with no dramatics but just a good beatdown. It's possible, anything is
PM | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 7:31 pm | #

The jury returned a verdict today against Charlie and in favor the Mass. General doctors in his malpractice case. Time to get back to football.
Don E. Brook | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 9:42 pm | #

"I personally like Joe Subway's memory of Trey Anastasio..."

Good call. I did mean Chase. I don't think Trey could have made that block.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 07.24.07 - 11:38 pm | #

Pete- that game was 28-27, not 21-20. I remember this because I walked out of my buddy's apartmet at WMU with the score 28-7 at the half or early in the third to go get a few beers. Hours later, I thought the beers had been playing tricks on me when I saw that the game had wound up close
crazy tom | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 12:16 am | #

I can't ever remember seeing a call for pushing your own runner in college or pro. I was fortunate to see ND play Syracuse in '61 I think but could be wrong. The score was 15-14 Syracuse and ND tried to kick a FG and failed. The ref called a penalty on Syracuse and ND got a 15 yard penalty after time expired. They let ND have another play and the kicker made it. It changed the rulebooks letting the game continue after a defensive penalty.
GB | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:11 am | #

God... you guys just had to go and pull this out.

Can I send the bill to you guys for the two years of therapy that you just threw down the tube?

Time to start drinking again.

4TH AND 9!!!!!!!!!!!
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:41 am | #

arguably the best 90 seconds of my life were after the clock hit zeros and i thought ND had won.

i (and just about everyone in the student section) thought it was over. it was only 90 seconds later when i was done with my victory laps that i saw they had put more time on the clock.

to feel what it wouldve been like to win that game only to have it snatched away was rough...i dont have a webster's handy but im pretty sure thats the definition of "heartbreak".
Schultz | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 7:34 am | #

Thanks for the explanation and link, Pete. I was only 11 when that game was played, so my memory is a bit sketchy. I have watched every game since I can remember, but some of those earlier ones aren't as vivid. That was a heck of a play, though.

The thing I remember about 1995 was watching the Northwestern game on the big screen at the Joyce when my dad and grandpa went to the game. That was a painful day. I believe that was the year that N'Western went on to run the B10 and go to the Rose Bowl. At the time of that game though, I didn't think that Northwestern would ever beat anybody...but I digress.
Joel | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 7:59 am | #

Here's a "What if...." I'd like to see:

What if ND had hired a "real" football coach after pushing Lou Holtz out the door?

Where would the program have gone? Would we have suffered so long for a return to having a decent team?
Big Tobacco | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 8:44 am | #

I agree with the previous commentators that SC would probably have kicked a field goal, but have a question. Isn't there a rule that says an offensive foul in the last X minutes of a half results in the clock being run down 10 seconds? Would that have applied?

In any event, I think a better and more direct what-if would have been what if Wooden's arm had been six inches above where it was and the pass to Jarrett been knocked away. Not that I'm digging on Wooden -- his coverage was probably about as good as a CB could be, and I don't fault him for what happened.
El Kabong | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 9:16 am | #

Do any of you legal eagles know if CW will be compelled to pay the doctor's legal expenses?
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 9:31 am | #

Oops. Doctors'. As in two of them. Ouch.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 9:32 am | #

Steve Belles,
I also agree a loss can be legendary. When Bobby Bowden was interviewed at the Hall of Fame he was asked what the greatest game he had ever been a part of was and he said the '93 loss to ND. He said even though he lost there was something really special about that game.
Truly legendary games transcend just the W's and L's. Was I devastated we lost? Absolutely. Yet, I also felt like I had just witnessed something really remarkable.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 9:42 am | #

And while most football fans have known of its existence, I'm interested to see if anyone has ever seen it called at the Division 1 level.

I remember it being called against Notre Dame during the Davieham era. I think Autry Denson was the running back, and I think the play was on the left side of the south end zone at ND Stadium.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 9:52 am | #

I thought USC was down by 3 when they scored the TD. So you have to consider that anything that changed the spot of the ball (5 yard penalty/different spot on the sideline, etc.) might have led to a field goal try. And then we decide in the overtime. It may or may not have ended up a win.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 10:07 am | #

Chase Anastasio hit a Trojan so hard on that Zbikowski TD punt return that the USC player was later diagnosed with symptoms Anastasiomnesia. This is also the name given to the propensity to confuse Chase with the singer of the band Phish.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 10:30 am | #

Sorry everyone, but you are not going to convince me that the USC game in 2005 deserves to be on my legendary list. It was a good game, but we didn't win it. Please allow Coach Weis to speak for me, and he should be speaking for all fans:

"If you're waiting for me to say it was a good loss, you won't hear that here. Losing is losing, there are no moral victories."

Plus, ND fans need to get over that damn game. The problem with the recent generation is that Davieham has given us nothing to hang our hats on - if you were a fan during the Holtz era - you would know that the USC game in 2005 doesn't even make the top 10.

Think about how messed up your thinking is right now - 'It was great game, we gave it everything we had.' Sounds like a bunch of losers to me...
Steve Belles | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 10:37 am | #

Steve,

For Charlie's part, I'm sure he is right. On that team there is no such thing as a moral victory. That is the sort of attitude that we all want in a coach. He can't let his team feel that merely being "competitive" will suffice.

However, as a fan this is simply not true. There are such things as "moral victories." A game like USC 05 gives the fan base a measuring stick with which to judge the progress of the program. It was a painful loss, but going to toe-to-toe with one what all of the pundits have deemed "the best team in college football... ever" (I would disagree, but so said ESPN) was a real demonstration to the fan base that we were on the back to the top of college football.

After a fan base has to suffer a decade of mediocrity, yes, there absolutely are moral victories. Not for the team, but for the fans. We had been like a dog that was beaten one too many times. We were convinced that we had lost the shine of the dome. That game showed us that it was possible to regain it.

As a fan there is such a thing as a moral victory.
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 10:52 am | #

Does anyone recall when USC was calling for a timeout but didn't have any? Isn't that a penalty in itself? Not to mention the assistant coach was way out in the field calling the timeout?
Breezy | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 10:58 am | #

Steve,
You can say it wasn't a moral victory and still say it was a legendary game. Those two aren't equivalent.
bgr | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 11:37 am | #

Great idea for a series of posts. Although, if I were an ND fan this type of thing might keep me up at night. This was a horrifically painful loss for you that deprived CW of the marquee victory he still lacks ('05 Michigan was a fraud.) I do have some points I would like to respectfully make.

Allowing the expired clock to end the game, rather than put seven seconds back on the clock

It was a horrible quirk that the TV clock ran out but there was no doubt the ball was out of bounds. Additionally, Leinart ended up in the end zone so I wonder if he doesn't fumble if it's a TD. I think there was very little chance of the ball not going out of bounds (or an out of bounds player touching it) so the fumble may have saved the Irish for 4 more seconds.

Spotting the ball in the correct place after Leinart's first down fumble out of bounds

I have no idea where the ball went out but I'm guessing they would have just kicked a FG to tie.

Throwing a flag on Reggie Bush for pushing Leinart into the end zone

Clearly against the rules (which I yelled out at the time.) If they'd called it y'all would spend the rest of your lives having to defend it (so there's my sad attempt at a bright side.) I saw this called once, in the NFL, when an offensive lineman picked the RB up and threw him. Pushing is routinely allowed especially by non offensive linemen. The 1 second of "he's not going to get in" was yet another cruel twist of fate for the Irish.

My question has always been did Carroll know they were going to sneak. I heard Leinart asked Bush in the huddle and Bush said to go for it. Clearly, that rumor isn't worth a damn but I still wonder.
imafreak | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 11:51 am | #

I have a feeling that tommorrow I'm going to be reading about Anthony Gonzalez (before the AG tarnished the name) and a Zibikowski fumble return in the '05 Fiesta Bowl.
imafreak | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 12:07 pm | #

What if we had different coaches voting {or not } for National Champs in 93?

We won on the field but FSU had a "Bush push " by our Rival coaches in the polls.

Puts the 2005 USC game in real perspective.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 12:20 pm | #

I'd like to add two more calls the officials "missed." First, Bush tackled Crum on an outside blitz a play or two before Leinart made his attempted outside scramble run to the end zone. The officials, had they had their eyes open, could have easily flagged Bush for the blatant hold. Second, Pete Carroll's son was both out of the coach's box (on the field actually) and signaling for a timeout USC didn't have the play before the "Bush-push." The push doesn't bother me, those two no-calls do.
NDtailgater | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 12:31 pm | #

I have to agree with bgr that a moral victory and a legendary game are not even remotely the same thing. I don't even believe in moral victories (there is patently no such thing in my opinion...it's either a W or not), but I do think ND-USC '05 was a legendary game.

To say that it's not a legendary game just because ND lost is quite possibly the silliest thing I have ever heard. Every game has a winner, and a loser, so under that criteria, how can any game be legendary, barring a tie? ND-USC was a legendary game, hands down, but I hate to hear anything about "moral victories."

Actually, I hate to hear anything about that entire game. There are a whole lot of what-ifs there. Hey, here's a new one: What if USC had realized that Reggie Bush's parents lived in a suspiciously large house, discovered NCAA violations, and he was suspended for the 2005 season? That would have solved a whole lot of problems!! I can wish, right?
Jade | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 12:58 pm | #

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the illegal time out call (when USC had none left) by Poodle's son after the ball got knocked out of bounds. If C Webb's can get called for it in a Nat. Champ. game, so too, should the Poodle's son, and USC, have been penalized. Then the Bush Push never happens. USC has 1 play with 7 seconds from the 6 or 7 yd line.
Jooordan | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:11 pm | #

I think the way we can appreciate the game is by not looking at it from a Notre Dame fan's point of view, but rather, from a very involved college football fan's perspective. For all those state university fans that tuned in, it was a great freakin' game. Future generations will ask us about the '05 SC-ND game, and, although it was a loss, it was undoubtedly one of the most emotionally-fueled sporting experiences of the time. I, for one, am happy to have, in some way, been a part of it.
AS | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:30 pm | #

What if....
the NCAA actually had some guts and stripped USC of their '05 wins for Bush being on payroll just like they did to Oklahoma?
bgr | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 2:12 pm | #

I have seen the illegal push called in the NFL once when William "Refrigerator" Perry grabbed and pushed Walter Peyton for a touchdown.

As for the Weis trial, I am not a Mass. attorney but, generally, in the absence of a contract clause regarding the payment of the prevailing party's attorneys' fees by the loser or a state statute providing for the recovery of attorneys' fees, each party is to bear his own attorneys' fees.

As for the what ifs, with the tempo of the game being what it was in the fourth quarter, I was starting to scream for Ambrose to let Jarrett go. My thinking was that with a little more time on the clock, Brady would have driven for the last touchdown. I know it is a risky strategy and probably goes against everything a defensive player stands for but that was what I was thinking at the time. What if?
Donny Brook | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:23 pm | #

One huge mistake in the "what if" penalty. If the penalty was assessed, Southern Cal would have been penalized, as you suggested, but Carroll would have absolutely opted to kick the field goal to tie it up. He called for Leinart to spike it originally and Leinart went for it. After a penalty, Carroll would have marched the FG unit and we might have seen OT. Leinart made 3 huge, but horrible decisions on that last drive...yet they all paned out. Ugh.

Point is, they would have kicked the FG. Shorten the field that day, and our chances increase.
Chooch | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:50 pm | #

Everyone, I was not making it up before, read the comments - I even ASKED an official the week after the game. Calling a timeout when you don't have any IN COLLEGE FOOTBALL is no a penalty.

Yes, I supposed they could have called a penalty on him for being out of the coaching box, but they usually give a warning before a penalty on that one.
Steve Belles | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 7:24 pm | #

If the Bush Push penalty was called, the game would have been over. Well, at least in the NFL. 10 seconds are run off the clock if there's an offensive penalty at the end of the game. So, USC wouldn't have one last chance to win the game.

-hoason
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 10:28 pm | #

steve belles -

http://www.football.com/ penaltie...p.shtml#timeout

is this incorrect?
yz | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 10:56 am | #

I actually did see an Aiding The Runner call a few years ago. It was a fairly inconsequential Big 12 game involving Kansas and another team I can't recall. On a draw play, the Kansas ball carrier tripped and began to stumble near the line of scrimmage, so a nearby lineman with no one to block grabbed him around the waist and picked him up and carried him for a few yards. Unlike the Bush/Leinart play, it was pretty funny.
Joe | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 12:33 pm | #