It is a shame that you removed the post. This is still America, and your anger and frustration were well received by 99% of the readers. Do not back down ever again or I will lose faith in the BGS as an open forum.
ND4ME2006 | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:27 pm | #

Keep the ideas, lose the language. So many of us feel the same way that you did, and it needs to be made known. Charlie should have to answer for his shortcomings.
me | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:30 pm | #

It's all good. It served its purpose. Believe me, I didn't pull it because it wasn't honest -- it was. It was meant as a venting...and it worked. Primal scream therapy.

And to be clear, I pulled it for my own reasons, not because people were complaining. If we were pulling posts everytime someone complained, we'd have pulled our preseason predictions long ago, along with lots of other posts.

For those that saw the post, hopefully they took it in the manner in which it was intended, shared in the catharsis, and are ready to move on.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:31 pm | #

Everyone needs to get their laughs in now. Trust me this is all gonna be over soon. The offseason will come and we can try to forget all of this has happened. But for all the nd haters, get your jokes in now. Mark May, laugh now. Next year will be different. We gotta believe.
bk | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:32 pm | #

I still think that Charlie is the right man for the job. There is no question that he made a couple of bad mistakes in the game, but I think he will learn from them and we'll be fine. Another terrible season should see him fired, but a couple of kicking decisions should not.
Greg | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:39 pm | #

Steve W on Irish Eyes basically said the same as you without the cursing. YOu could have done the same. Anger and passion is okay. We expect more from you than cursing. And don't call the head coach an idiot, you may be upset with him, but he's got a pretty good trackrecord in an unforgiving sport. He knows the kickers better than we do...
NDIrish80 | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:40 pm | #

No problem Jay. Notre Dame fans are not used to losing which makes this season extra hard. We have extremely high expectations and that goes for me. Hang in there ND fans, hope is in next years class.
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:42 pm | #

Among the hundreds of posts since the game, someone hit the nail on the head. Charlie Weis simply knew he couldn't have made the kick. Simple as that.

WHY he couldn't make the kick, I have no idea. But that is what Charlie Weis thought at the time. I know that theoretically there is always a CHANCE he could make it. But seriously, with just seconds to make a decision, if Charlie truly thought - for whatever reason - that he simply couldn't make the kick (again, assuming that is Charlie's state of mind at the moment), then Charlie has no choice but to go for it on 4th down, hoping to make a play, and put us in position for a kick that he (according to Charlie's mindset) CAN make.

Easy for us to second guess, but I think the explanation is as simple as that. If we made the 4th down conversion, or completed a pass that someone turned into a touchdown, then Charlie looks like a genius with ice water in his veins.
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:43 pm | #

What is wrong with cursing. Jesus H Christ half the people on here are still playing choir-boy. Give it a rest. And give the "don't call Charlie names" a rest. he calls everyone else names. But what do I know, I got flamed for calling CW a jerk. Only in Georgie Bush world do we delete our posts cause they might upset someone. Ridiculous and beneath you.
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:45 pm | #

"Charlie Weis simply knew" > He knows shit. Is there any Nostradamus here who can tell me he would not have made that kick? No, because he might have made it. You are really drinking the CW kool-aid. "He'll learn" "We'll get better" Oh really? No evidence of that yet and the season is almost over. Not one shred of progress. Not one shred of passion.
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:48 pm | #

Again, didn't pull the post because of complaints.

I wrote it last night; posted it as soon as I got up; stewed on it all day and finally decided to cool off.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:52 pm | #

Jay; Not to worry. It's all good.
Anonymous, keep your political pundits to yourself.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:54 pm | #

We just got knocked in the mouth again.. all the bitchin and whining in the world wont solve anything. We need to stand up, take this like men, and hope....if you dont have hope, you dont have anything
bk | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:57 pm | #

The guy who hit the nail on the head (I just looked for it again, but couldn't find it) also said something about Charlie (again, thinking - for whatever reason - that our kicker could not make the kick) wanting to put the pressure on himself (i.e. his play-calling) rather then put the "blame" on the kicker for missing a kick that Charlie thought he could never make in the first place.

I am not necessarily drinking the kool-aid. Just offering a different perspective if you are willing to consider Charlie's state-of-mind at the moment he opted for going for it on 4th down, rather than attempt the kick. And no, I am not an attorney.
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:58 pm | #

Sorry Jay, but I'm not buying it. You defended the post, and the language, several times over the course of the day. Remember, the post came with an advance warning regarding the "R" rated language. It should be re-posted for all to read and enjoy. What next? Are the Thought Police going to prevent you from blogging?!? I say, write free or die! And keep up the good work.
ND4ME2006 | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 9:59 pm | #

Jay, buddy, let it go. Your post was honest, heartfelt and raw emotion. I appreciated that you revealed anger that only love of Notre Dame could ignite. If this site were to get sterile, the appeal of it would vanish. This is an outlet for me. I enjoy venting with Domers, and I'm always amazed by the amount of insight that is provided here, as well as the insane research and statistics that blow all of our minds. Also, I have always found ND guys to be hysterically funny, and this site is the next best thing to hanging around the dorm with a half dozen maniacs, talking football, and laughing my bag off until 3 o'clock in the morning. Keep up the good work. And stop with the contrition/not contrition stuff. Your words were spot on and just made it so a lot of us didn't have to say them ourselves. As Margaret Thatcher once said, "Don't go wobbly on me now."
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:04 pm | #

Jay, it was certainly your prerogative to write the post (or any post you want, for that matter), and the depths of your frustration were warranted and quite understandable. The warning was classy to start with, as was pulling the post after awhile. I chalk it up as something akin to cursing in front of your kids, and then regretting it after awhile. Not that you need my validation. Thanks for BGS, and keep up the excellent work.
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:05 pm | #

Anyone buying my "Charlie state-of-mind" theory on why he went for it on 4th down, rather than attempt the kick?
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:08 pm | #

What's worse in the college football landscape, Michigan's loss to Appalachian State, or our loss to Navy? Just trying to put this in some kind of objective perspective (if there is such a thing).
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:12 pm | #

Jay, Don't be so hard on yourself. Your analysis was right on the money. The language may have been somewhat imprudent, but it was excusable given the circumstances. Oh, and you guys with the "laugh now, wait until next year" stuff. Give it a rest. When you're 1-8 the best thing to do is remain silent. That way if your dreams tank in '08 you don't look so stupid. Go Irish, fire Charlie!
Tridentum | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:19 pm | #

Face it : We suck. Is it really a surprise that we finally lost to Navy ?

As poorly as this season has gone, you could certainly see this loss coming. It was time.

I'm not angry about it. Just despondent and numb.

Enjoyed Jay's rant nonetheless.
tjnd88 | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:20 pm | #

So, I'm not going to call Charlie a rookie, but who amongst us didn't make a huge mistake or two during his first BIG position?

Charlie may have screwed the pooch on that call, and that may have cost us the game. Will he learn from this? Damn right he will.

If we'd had a stellar year, without a single loss, and Navy had upset us, we'd all have been hugely upset. The flip side of that is that yup, records are meant to be broken, and in what better season could this one have fallen?

My cup is half full, guys, I think this was great for Navy, and only half bad for us.

Am I disappointed at the season? Let me count the ways! I've taken it at work, or driving my 'vert with the top down wearing my Irish hat, or - hey, take your pick - any one of a thousand other ways, as well.

We'll be back, and the guys playing and losing today, will be fire tested and play like forged steel. They have been embarrased beyond belief. They will redeem themselves and we will all be able to hold our chins up once again.

Go Irish!
ND_Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:21 pm | #

Can someone do one of those logic chains that says "Delaware > Navy, Navy > Notre Dame, therefore Delaware > Notre Dame"?

I think there is another one involving Duke, Northwestern and Michigan State that should result in Duke > Notre Dame.

I just think it is better if we say it ourselves, rather than giving our enemies the satisfaction of beating us to the punch.
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:24 pm | #

Damn, that was the post of the year. Oh well, it's typical of what's been happening and trying to spin things to the positive. I'm gonna drink some boiling Kool Aid and wait for that great 9-3 season next year.

Also, not too sure on the recruiting spin either. I'm watching this NFL game and the players are saying what university they are from... half are from High School, junior college, or some University in the middle of nowhere. Seems like more of the good ones could care less about school.
sorry charlie | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:24 pm | #

Dozier--

No. Sorry. I too wanted to find a different persepctive on the choice not to kick it in regulation. I wanted to believe that maybe Coach Weis was trying to spare the poor kicker the blame. But,

1. Kicking it would have kept the game in a tie. It would not have been the loss.

2. I don't think a coach is doing any favors to a kid who is on scholarship to do exactly that job. Show some faith in your man. What happens next time they need that kick?
AnnexLyonite | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:30 pm | #

Anonymous:
You are a 1992 alum? You are high on emotion but settle down and learn some history about your (and my) alma mater. You sound remarkably like the zealots who called for Rockne's head in 1928, Leahy's in 1950, Ara's in 1974 (after beating Navy 14-6 and giving up 49 straight points against USC) and Devine's in 1975 after losing 10-3 to Michigan State in the home opener (he was to be replaced with Don Shula). Yes, CW made bad decisions yesterday. So did all prior ND coaches at one time or another. Get over it. If you study ND history, you will learn that this is the youngest ND team in at least 43 years and has played a schedule through 8 games that has been brutal. Before yesterday, the WORST defense we faced was 56th in the country with several in the top 10 against the rush. No, these are not excuses for bad coaching but they do offer some perspective. The reality is that CW took ND to two BCS berths with players that Ty could not win six games with; he made Quinn far richer than he ever would have been; he was left with a program that was in far worse shape than many wish to acknowledge (two OL recruits in two years who may not even be 1-A talent!). CW lost 5 games to top 5 teams in his first two years-something Ara, Devine and Lou never did because they never played 5 top 5 teams in their first two years. In their first two years the top five teams they did play they did not beat. Take a look at some other coaches, such as Frank Beamer, and the time it took (and the number of losses) to build or rebuild a winning program. No excuses, just perspective.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:30 pm | #

Dear Bad Notre Dame Jay,

Thank you for your passion and your pulling of the naughty blog. I was trying to read this morning while shielding the screen from the seven-year-olds' eyes. (I am illicitly happy I got to read it before it went away, though!) As your penance, may I suggest--pretty please--that you post the original wonderful cartoon Bad Notre Dame Daddy, but with #$%^&* in the "*uck" bubble. It will make me laugh. And I really need that right now. Maybe we all could use some laughter.
AnnexLyonite | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:41 pm | #

I had zero problem with the language or sentiment in the post in and of itself. My problem was the series of comments that followed - gone were the thoughtful insights I'm used to seeing, replaced by lowest-common-denominator vitriol.

The post served its purpose, and that's now done. We all know you have the right to speak your mind and to say it in any way you damn well please. Thanks for recognizing that there are implications bigger than that.
irishru2 | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:42 pm | #

Jay; Thanks for cleaning up my response.
Winston Churchill; "When you're going through hell, keep on going".
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:55 pm | #

Good call, Jay. Looking forward to the Monday morning read.
GOshenIRISH | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 10:58 pm | #

Annex, you hit the nail on the head. Great job Charlie in making your kicker feel like sh**. Nothing like telling your scholarship kicker that you have no faith that he can hit one from 42 yards.

And Lush, the only reality you should concern yourself is 1-8 and some of the worst coaching decisions any of us have seen. You might be able to take a bit of solace in Brady Quinn's pro contract...not me.
RedMahoney | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:00 pm | #

My brother was at the game and said the kicker missed every practice kick he took at half-time, most much closer than 42. Probably factored into charlie's decision (which was still indefensible).
Mr Juggles | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:21 pm | #

wow - wasn't expecting the post to be pulled. that's disappointing. I think your post was spot on - even the profanity. It was justified
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:25 pm | #

Jay,

Still angry just like you...but actually more at peace with the state of the universe now that my top blog guys manned up. Speaks volumes of your site...and I hope the caliber of ND all the way through.

To me it says a lot that while you can be confident you weren't wrong, you decided to remove it anyway. Well done!
Pickel | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:27 pm | #

Muze2@mac.com / Anonymous

I don't have a problem with cursing. I do have a big problem with using the Lord's name in vain, especially for fans of Our Lady's University. No need to throw that gratuitous use of the Lord's name in there.
Irish Marauder | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:28 pm | #

Hey,guys...we suck...end of story.
Felipe | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:42 pm | #

Navy has one of the best offenses in the nation. It also has the worst defense. This means they can usually match any team score for score. Potentially, they can beat nearly any team and they can lose to any team (Delaware). It all depends on turnovers and how the number of posessions shake out over 60 minutes. It was almost certain that Navy would lose whenthey fumbled. The ND Fumble put them back in it. When ND missed the field goal, it was almost certain Navy would win, but they missed a field goal of their own to put ND back in it. Every Navy game, no matter who they play was/will be a see-saw battle like this. It's not that bad that ND lost. Navy is a team that can beat anybody while simultaneously lose to anybody.
Rob | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:43 pm | #

I'm glad you took it down. Right after every loss I say things that don't reflect what I truly think and most of the time it comes out as some multi-language swear ball.

But, I can understand Charlie not going for it, but for the life of me I can't figure out how the hell that Navy guy makes that play. Navy has one of the worst defense's in America and they blitz a safety, Armando is right there and the f-ing Navy guy jumps OVER him. I still can't believe that he did that. I have not seen a play like that since Richard Dent in the '88 playoffs against the 49'ers.
The Butobi Brothers | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:44 pm | #

I think the underlying reason for Jay's timely rant (most faithful ND fans were doing the very same thing...just not on a blog) is that Charlie showed ZERO humility and accountability in the post-game presser. He made a bad call and should man up and admit to it.

What rightfully scares ND Nation is if Charlie truly forewent a game-winning field goal on such flimsy reasoning that he gave in the presser.

As others have so eloquently stated, Notre Dame is about the "luck" of the Irish, the true belief that good things will happen. Having seen Walker nail one at the Rose Bowl in person, I'm convinced with his adrenaline pumping, with the confidence of his coach behind him, he would have pulled off one of those Reggie Ho or John Carney moments.

But, Charlie did blow it. Passing on 4th and 8 (into the alleged "wind") was futile, as Navy quickly proved. As head coach, he should have no problem admitting that.

Here's hoping the press asks the tough questions to Charlie about what HE intends to do to improve his own coaching these last 3 games. We know he'll tell us what drills the players will run through, etc...

What's alarming to so many after 8 losses is that Charlie's words are not producing the effect on the field - there really is no "nasty, intelligent" team which Charlie promised.

It's not these 18 year olds faults, either. Over a sustained drought of 8 losses, it's clearly on the shoulders of the coaches, and the buck stops at Charlie.

God help him find the humility to seek help. He needs to suck it up and admit his methods aren't working, some of his assistant coaches can't develop young talent, and that he frequently outthinks himself, makes things more complicated than they are, and out "schemes" his own players abilities.
Andy | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:46 pm | #

He didn't go for the field goal on the twenty-four but he would have on the twenty?

Madness.

He "learns" on a job he gets, what 3.5 million dollars a season to perform?

Crazy like a fox.

Charlie Weis is not the guy.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.04.07 - 11:57 pm | #

"I want a f***ing car... right f***ing now."

Heh heh. Don't sweat it, dude. You couldn't have prefaced your tirade any more aptly. Great movies - both of them. This has been a "break your remote" season.
Chad | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 12:06 am | #

Did you forget that your mother reads this site?
Lo-fi | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 12:09 am | #

Mr Juggles, I was at the game and saw the same thing. It seems like ND's kicker made only one practice try while the Navy kicker did not miss any that I saw. They were aiming at the north end zone, and it seemed to me that the wind was weaker at halftime than it was by the end of the game. I fully support Coach Weis' decision to run a play rather than kick, at that point. However, I was baffled by his repeated decisions not to run the ball and/or to throw passes to the flat. ND's receivers were usually hit right away but, even when they weren't, they could not do much.

Lastly, I disagree with those saying ND's players lacked passion. It still seemed to me like they had more passion than I saw from the previous coach's teams.
Lou not that Lou | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 12:12 am | #

C'mon fellas, we'd already misssed a 40 yarder earlier in the game. We haven't had a consistent field goal kicker in years. If there is any defense in the NCAA against whom we should be able to convert on 4th down it's Navy.

Sure, in hindsight it was a flippin' bone-head call. Yeah, this year has been a complete and utter disaster. Of course, the luster is gone from the Charlie mystique (and yes, we here are were complicit in putting it there in the first place). But I'm sorry, I just don't get the argument that this one play has somehow revealed Charlie to be an out-of-touch lout who doesn't "play to win the game". Sheesh.
jeremy | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 12:15 am | #

Meanwhile...hey...spring ball is only 6 months away! I can't wait to read about the newly implemented physical practice sessions and the new assistant coachess hired to specifically deal pain to our youth!

GO IRISH!
borromini | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 12:50 am | #

As I said on the thread that got pulled, there were a lot of decisions by Weis that I questioned yesterday, but the one on 4th and 8 is almost defensible. Our kicker has had some flat out putrid-looking kicks since the one good kick in the UCLA game. Who knows what the chances would have been on a 41 yarder. 25%? 15%? The chance of converting both the 4th and 8 AND the resulting shorter field goal were probably even less, but Weis knows his kicker at lot better than I do. It's clear he has virtually no confidence in him. Don't get me wrong- I still would have kicked it. But I don't think that particular decision was half as objectionable as some of the other decisions.
ndfootball4everandever | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 12:58 am | #

Jay -
I appreciated your post earlier, but I also appreciate you pulling it.

Sure, I have no problem reading that, but then again, what about all the young BGS readers.

I dont know about everyone else, but when I have kids, I sure hope they are reading this site as much as I do. I'm always looking to convert people to ND fans, and am looking forward to making some of my own. So taking that in consideration I thank you...both for posting, and taking down.
irishguy06 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 1:05 am | #

What? The imaginary man in the sky might strike you with lightning for saying the truth -- CW is not a good head coach? I hope that UND (not North Dakota) lets him stay for the rest of his contract. That's 7 more USC wins.
anon USC fan | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 1:18 am | #

So let me get this right: You cheer while teenage boys beat the crap out of each other, risking terrible injuries that are occasionally life threatening, yet you disapprove of bad language in a forum dedicated to football.

You people will never win.
Kreschmar | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 1:41 am | #

I'll give the Jay R-rated language warning here. If you don't like it, eat me.



What the fuck do you people want, exactly? National championship teams are not built in a day. You can't just turn shit around on a dime.

Anyone who was paying attention, even Brian from mgoblog for Dayne Crist's sake, realized that there were significant problems coming from this year's team and that the season would likely fall on a continuum somewhere between mediocrity and catastrophe. What we've got instead has thus far been a trainwreck of a clusterbomb of a goatfuck. I realize that many fans, including BGS, its regular commenters, and yes even me, expected a lot better, but that's not really a surprise coming from fans of a school which proclaims they will "win over all" in its fight song. Every fan puts rose-colored glasses on to start their season, because hope is an integral part of being a fan.

But this insistence on sharpening sticks to put someone, anyone's head on is disgusting. Please, for those of you who insist Charlie Weis is the problem and not the solution, tell me which head coach would have this team, the way it's set up, in the Top 25? Please tell me which head coach could have got even four wins out of this year given the inexperience of the squad and the murderous schedule played thus far?

Does anyone honestly think that Charlie, of all people, isn't perfectly aware of what a mess we're in? He went to this school, for fuck's sake. Of course he knows. What do you want him to say? Every time we lose, he humbles himself and accepts the loss. What should he be saying instead? "I didn't want to kick a field goal because a double amputee has a better chance of hitting from 40+ in the wind than our kicker"? "I don't want to throw over the middle because we have two inexperienced quarterbacks and an offensive line that can't block for five seconds if one million dollars were on the line"? He won't throw his players overboard like that. But we all know it's the fucking truth.

The reasons why Charlie calls the plays he does and makes the decisions he does are, for the most part, self-fucking-evident. With this team, he can't do anything else. He already knows it won't work.

This is not to say his decisions have all been right; obviously choosing not to attempt the field goal at the end of regulation was a bonehead move. But let's attempt to be rational here. For example, I've heard bitching about the playcalling on the final play of the game. We're a yard and a half away; in situations like this, when Charlie calls a pass we all scream RUN THE FUCKING BALL. So he runs the fucking ball and it doesn't work and we shit crabcakes. What the hell is the man supposed to do?

Chill the fuck out, people. This season is lost. Has been ever since Michigan. The loss to USC made it official. Does it really matter at this point whether we went 5-7 or 1-11? We're still stuck with a losing season and no bowl game. It's only fan pride that really separates one from the other. The same stupid pride that led us all to say "Gee, we could go 9-3 this year!" It's meaningless. Pride is a deadly sin for a reason.

Now then, there will be changes this offseason. The same thing that led Charlie to fire Rick Minter — who, let's not forget, had impressive credentials — and make a bonanza hire in Corwin Brown will lead him to do the same with John Latina. This O-Line is horrible, and we all know it. He will hire a better coach, and we will continue to recruit studs, and there will be significant improvement next year.

Whoever's the quarterback will have another year of experience, and you can bet your ass that Charlie won't make the mistake of not drilling fundamentals from moment one of spring practice.

But we can't lapse into panic, people. Panic is part of the reason we got into this mess. Panic is why we hired Davieham. Panic will lead to more mistakes. Charlie is not panicking for a reason. I don't give a red fuck that he said he didn't care about the streak. He shouldn't. It's a statistical anomaly. We should have lost to Navy no less than five times in the last decade. They finally got our number. Good for them. And, oh by the way, this is not the Navy team that goes 2-10 every year with wins over some bottomfeeding team like Temple before thrashing Army in December. If you haven't noticed, Navy has been pretty good the last few years. I guaran-fucking-tee you it wasn't because Navy fans pushed the panic button every time they got crushed. They picked themselves up and moved on.

There's a lesson there.

Is Charlie the answer? I don't know. You don't, either. The jury's still out. But until you can tell me how the past mistakes could have been miraculously cured, focus on the future. Charlie is.
marchand chronicles | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:14 am | #

Bravo Marchand. Bravo.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:36 am | #

Whew! Glad I printed out your rant, Jay, before you pulled it - one for the ages, my friend. Came across your excellent blog post-game while trying to get a feel for the collective rage among all the Domers.

Among the millions of die-hard Notre Dame haters out there, I'm at least licensed (as are thousands of other Navy grads) and can perhaps offer a different perspective of the last 43 years - no, make that the last 33 - since my first ND experience on a cold, windy November afternoon at Veteran's Stadium in Philadelphia. On that day, with less than 5 minutes remaining, we were up 6-0 thanks to a punter named John Stufflebeem (now a Vice Admiral and Commander of the U.S. Sixth Fleet in Europe) who kept the Irish pinned DEEP on their side of the field and a defense just good enough to keep them out of field goal range. Alas, the final score was 14-6 and at the time I gave not so much as a thought to the coming decades of frustration.

It was all quite tolerable for many years - we knew Navy couldn't draw the athletes and the game was played for money and tradition. At least the Rick Forzero years were over and George Welsh was taking us to Bowl Games. Notre Dame also gave us the opportunity to see the Mids play a second game on national TV besides Army every year, and that was good. And then - Lou Holtz flipped off the Golden Gophers and the arrogance set in.

It started to get painful when Powlus, up by 30 points in 1994, took a knee on first and second down but then promptly rifled the third-down snap to a receiver in the end zone as time ran out. Thanks, Lou. Not even Steve Spurrier would have pulled such a stunt.

Then there was that completed pass at the end of the 1997 game which Pat McGrew ran to the 1-yard line before Rossum shoved him out, again as time expired - Navy fans like to believe that those stadium renovations included an expansion of the field along with the seating capacity.

The fourth-and-10 favorable spot in 1999? You're at least one of the few ND faithful who doesn't plead the Hillary defense when it's brought up ("I don't recall.").

Navy fans are too classy to actually "hate" another classy institution like Notre Dame, but the guilt of joining in the celebration (albeit by extension) of another Irish humiliation EVERY Saturday afternoon was becoming rather burdensome. Paul Johnson has elevated Navy to the point where Army and Air Force are foregone conclusions - few of us really even care about those games these days. A win, just ONE win, in South Bend was needed to re-establish the baseline so both teams could get on with the rest of their seasons and the talking heads on NBC/CBS/ESPN would have to find something else to dwell on every year.

To be sure, this was NOT the Navy team that was to end the streak. It should have happened in 2003 when the Irish came into the game at 2-6 and Navy had its most solid defense in years plus two 1,000-yard rushers, QB Craig Candeto and FB Kyle Eckel (destined to score a TD for New England in this year's Super Bowl) or in 2004 when Eckel returned in the backfield with another 1,000-yard-rushing QB, Aaron Polanco. The promise brought on by a down year for ND this year was quickly offset by Navy's woeful defense - poor pass coverage, missed tackles - but it was the latter which found just enough adrenaline Saturday to put the pickle in Charlie's mouth on which he bit and puckered.

This year, though, it wasn't a questionable spot or pass completion to the 1-yard line or a game-ending field goal that once again resigned us all to certain doom. Nope, this year's heart-stopper was the penalty in the end zone. And when (if?) you all get over your rage at Charlie I'd like to know whether you really think Parris was interfered with.

So now that the streak is over, what's left to look forward to for Navy fans?
1. (This year) Notre Dame wins over Air Force, Duke, and Stanford to help solidify our victory.
2. (Next year) Seeing the over-hyped Jimmy Clausen remain planted in the turf at least once on every set of downs.
West Coast Navy Guy | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:08 am | #

So is the second worst call the fake field goal RUN on 4th and 17 or however long it was?
Chris | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:04 am | #

Some may say I sacrilege, but it’s only a game; it’s not what we are all about. Only partially. And usually only on Saturdays in the fall.
Jim '72 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:07 am | #

Nothing wrong with spewing the language...it makes you feel better. Me too. If some are so prudish that it offends them, they should be on Nickelodian
gwzimm | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:26 am | #

West Coast Navy Guy;

It looked to me like the Navy defender touched the ball first. I don't think that was interference. The game should have ended there.

You know, the late Harry Oliver missed an extra point earlier in the game in which he went down in history for making the 51-yarder against Michigan.

Would a brialliant math genius coach have factored that into his calculoser and determined not to go for that kick?
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:35 am | #

You know, the late Harry Oliver missed an extra point earlier in the game in which he went down in history for making the 51-yarder against Michigan.

Would a brialliant (sic) math genius coach have factored that into his calculoser (sic) and determined not to go for that kick?

Oliver's kick was the last play of the game, with :03 to go. Of course, you go for the kick there.

As was stated in the comments of the deleted post, a group of Navy alums were watching the game and were initially thankful that Weis went for it on 4th down. Then they realized (perhaps it was merely the pessimism that Navy had in the series) that if ND got the first down (and they were pretty good on 4th down in the game), they would certainly win the game (either by scoring a TD, or kicking a shorter FG on the last play of the game).
DJ | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:48 am | #

1) Navy's kicker missed 2 PAT's. He got a do-over because we were off sides.

2) We all know, that the kick not taken, analyzed on it's own, is defensible. But in the context of all the other mediocre and poor calls during the game, it serves as an example. Don't make me list all the bad ones ;)

3) Can anybody name one great call during the game? Maybe the fouth down pass play to Carlson? But again, we are forced to attempt a 4th and long against Navy's defense???

Go Irish!
Mackay Rippey | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:06 am | #

yeah, that fake field goal on 4th and 17 was a thing of beauty. With a special teams unit that can't kick the ball in the end zone, can barely kick an extra point, can't tackle on returns, he decides to run Sharpley to get the 1st down? I think CW is nuts. Why not just go for it? If there was no Navy defenders on the field, Sharply would trip over a blade of grass before running 17 yards. It had to be a 2% chance that he'd pick that up. Oh well, it's just a mess right now. Fire White !!
sorry charlie | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:17 am | #

marchand chronicles, you write that it is unkown whether Charlie is the answer. boggles the mine. all i know is that he blinked and may never recover.
George Carlin | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:28 am | #

"boggles the mind"...oops..
George Carlin | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:29 am | #

Tony Dungy recounting Chuck Noll's philosophy: "Champions don't beat themselves. If you want to win, do the ordinary things better than anyone else does - day in and day out. We're not going to fool people or outscheme them. We're just going to outplay them. Because we'll know what we're doing. When we get into a critical situation, we won't have to think. We'll play fast and fundamentally sound."

Chuck Noll - the opposite of our coach and team.

In agony.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:34 am | #

oh and I should add: Doesn't Noll's description sound exactly like the Navy team: played hard with a lot of heart, good sound fundamental football. Congrats.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:40 am | #

"Oliver's kick was the last play of the game, with :03 to go. Of course, you go for the kick there."

Oh, but you DON'T go for it because there are 40 seconds to go and you're playing Navy, the team with the awesome deep-threat passing offense?

Makes. No. Sense. At all. The decision to not try to win the game on a 42-yard field goal is the stupidest blunder I've ever seen.

If Davie had done this, if Willingham had done this, how would we talk about this years later?
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:09 am | #

"Anyone buying my "Charlie state-of-mind" theory on why he went for it on 4th down, rather than attempt the kick?" - Dozier

Not at all. Charlie needs to concern himself with winning games, not worrying about who will get the blame for losing to Navy. It was the worst decision he's made in his ND tenure and he needs to own it.
Optimus Prime | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:10 am | #

"Oliver's kick was the last play of the game, with :03 to go. Of course, you go for the kick there."

Oh, but you DON'T go for it because there are 40 seconds to go and you're playing Navy, the team with the awesome deep-threat passing offense?

You have a choice in that situation. You either go for the field goal which, if you made it, would win you the game (because Navy wouldn't have enough time to score), or you go for it on fourth down and if you get it, you score either with a TD that puts the game totally our of reach (in terms of score and time), or a closer field goal on the very last play of the game.

Weis had a choice, made his choice, and it didn't work. You would have tried for the field goal. I would have, as well. My only quibble with your point is that comparing that situation to Oliver's kick is like comparing apples to calimari.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:27 am | #

"What's worse in the college football landscape, Michigan's loss to Appalachian State, or our loss to Navy?" If the loss to Navy was part of a 8-4 season or even a 5-7 season, it might not be such a big deal . . . but if ND goes 1-11 or 2-10, well, that's very, very bad.
Anonymouse | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:28 am | #

Here's one that I never would have thought of. My wife, who has always "given 100%" to try and understand football, but asks me the same five questions during every football game that I have ever watched for the past ten years, commented to me after Weis chose not to attempt the 42 yard FG that "he is too cocky to only win by three...he wants to win by seven." I nearly shat!
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:33 am | #

Damn, I was going to cut and paste the original post in an e-mail to the faithful. Can someone email me the original post ? Sorry Jay......it was a classic
mikes1160 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:33 am | #

On a side note, I'd like to point out that ND no longer holds the dubious distinction of holding the toughest schedule according to Sagarin that many people on this site love to point to. Who now has the toughest schedule in college football. Well that would be the University of Washington. How many wins does the villified Ty Willingham have with the hardest schedule...3. I'm not saying that's great, but it's certainly better than one win.
SBHomer | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:38 am | #

The saddest part about this game was that the Irish didn't seem to WANT it. I mean, during the overtime the Navy kids were jumping up and down, hanging on every play, and the Irish sideline was a morgue -- just a bunch of people HOPING they wouldn't lose who just wanted to get it over with.

To me, that's the scariest thing about this season -- these kids seem like beaten losers. For those who want to find silver linings in comparison to other dark times (the Faust, Davie, unWillingham eras), this year's team goes far beyond those in terms of its lack of intensity and fire (with a few exceptions). It's pathetic -- have they no heart? No desire? How does that happen?

The most important question: is this even fixable under the current regime???
Sid | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:39 am | #

Sid,
Yours is the 3.5 million dollar (PER YEAR!) question.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:42 am | #

Wanted to share a thought that I haven't seen made yet (although I admittedly haven't waded through the nearly 1,000 comments made so far):

In the 4th, our offense effectively shut down - the running game that had been so strong was not opening up holes at it had in the early going, and the pass blocking looked again like any other game we've played this year, even though Navy was only sending 4-5 guys on a play. One possible reason for this? Game conditioning. Our offense hasn't played nearly that much in a game this year, and they (mostly the OL) was just plain tired and couldn't get it done when we needed it most. Even Aldridge couldn't make the moves late that he did early - he ran more than twice as much as he had in any other game so far.

Just sayin' ...
IndyEsq | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:46 am | #

Ya know, ND had to lose to Navy at some point and so why not now, in this awful year? Consider putting all the beatings in one pot...consider it like you take a tax loss, to get it out of the way...

Our good friends at Navy earned it and I salute them. Let's not tarnish what they pulled off.
captain jack | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:01 am | #

Remember, Notre Dame is different.

Every team gets up for ND, week in and week out.

So comparing Washington's record to ND's makes a point, but misses the big picture. I don't think Navy would have the day off from classes today if they beat Washington.

Navy doesn't give a hoot we are 1-8. Watch this youtube of the academy superintendent body surfing at an impromptu celebration at the city dock in Annaoplis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7...h? v=7xwVwTrgKNo

Playing ND is a big deal. Beating ND even bigger, even when we are strugling.

When facing this kind of a meat grinder of a championship game every week. OUr mistaakes will always be amplified, especially when losing.

Go Irish.
Mackay Rippey | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:01 am | #

An interesting nugget from Eric Hansen of the SBT:

"Speaking of history, reference points apparently do change over time. Saturday, when asked about the Navy losing streak being truncated, Weis stopped the questioner before he could complete the thought.

'Time out, time out, time out,' Weis said. '(The) streak doesn't mean anything to me. I mean, we lost to Navy. That's who we lost to. Next year we will play Navy again. I mean, the only streak is in your eyes. It is really not in the player's eyes.

'These kids are 17. Do you think they're worrying about 43 years? They are worrying about right now. They would like to beat Air Force. I think that's the streak they would like to beat on.'

But then flash back to 2005, when Weis was asked the following question in his pre-Navy game press conference:

Along the same lines, this is a game Notre Dame has won 41 straight years. Do you think your players think they don't want to be the team that lets the streak end?

'They better think that way,' Weis said. 'I think that way, so let's hope they're thinking that way.'"
kmf | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:16 am | #

KMF,

on the thread to the original post (which was taken down) a lot of us were expressing anger / disappointment with CW's comments regarding the streak.

To my mind this is one of the more disturbing parts of what happened saturday. We've all been saying for 3 years that, even if the team isn't playing as well as we'd like, at least CW "gets it."

Well, this season has served to shake my faith in that statement as well.

When I was in HS we won the state championship 15 years in a row - I was on teams 11, 12 and 13. You can bet the house that every single one of us was aware what was at stake every year. No one wanted to be the team that lost.

ND is a place of tradition. Part of that tradition is fighting for a victory over Navy - even in the years when we are terrible (and there were some bad teams between '63 and now).

For CW to disavow that tradition is not only disappoint - it really makes me question his leadership.
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:24 am | #

DJ - I think the comparison to the Oliver field goal goes to CW's rationale for not attempting it -- that our kicker couldn't make it in practice. Odds are, Oliver couldn't make it in practice, either. But when he was asked to do something special, he came through; it's very possible our guy would've come through Saturday, too. If he didn't, we're still going to OT, nothing lost.
rays15 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:32 am | #

For the record Navy had 3.9 YPC. ND had 3.7 YPC. The Navy passing was 9 Yards per attempt. Not exactly stellar.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:42 am | #

My Oliver comparison is extremely apt. I'm glad that Devine (I think it was Devine) didn't allow himself to think his way out of that by saying to himself "we've got a greater probability of pulling off a Hail Mary pass than Harry Oliver has of making that kick."

Because that's what Weis did. With a 42-yarder.

What was he thinking? He's explained and I find it makes no sense.

Weis' decision is unfathomable to me, still.
I don't think the man makes good decisions.
I think we'll continue to reap the results of that as long as he's the head coach.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:01 am | #

Mackay

I see your point and I appreciate its validity, but to further expand on my point.

The average point differential in ND's loses - 22

The average point differential in UW's - 15

PF and PA for ND's season total - PF 14, 31 PA

UW's season total - 29 PF, 31 PA

So it doesn't appear as though ND was even competitive in many of their loses, so even if the other team didn't bring their "A-game" they still had a great chance of winning.
SBHomer | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:02 am | #

My Oliver comparison is extremely apt. I'm glad that Devine (I think it was Devine) didn't allow himself to think his way out of that by saying to himself "we've got a greater probability of pulling off a Hail Mary pass than Harry Oliver has of making that kick."

It was Devine, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on your comparison of the two situations. That said, both you and I would have gone for the FG.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:08 am | #

There is no explanation for this kind of crappy performance at this point in the season against NAVY. Our guys have more talent and ability and Navy did nothing special that took advantage of "inexperience." This is all about pussy play from an OL that should be ashamed of itself and a oddly passive defensive scheme. Oh - and some seriously dumb-ass play calling. Still think we will be a good team next year, but I am beginning to wonder what will happen when we are 8-0 in such a situation - will CW refuse to kick a FG or go for it on 4th and 15 and cost us a NC?
Thundershaker | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:18 am | #

DJ;

I would've.
You would've.

For the love of little chocolate donuts, what kind of a moron wouldn't've?

This is a rhetorical question.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:19 am | #

Charlie is on tilt. That is the only rational explanation I can come up with that takes into account the fact that he used to look smart.

In almost every game in 2005 he made good decisions. He's capable of making good decisions. He's not stupid. He is just coaching stupidly. It may or may not pass.

And, hell, it wasn't just passing on the FG attempts. There was lots of stuff going on (passing for the hell of it when they couldnt stop the run, passive defense for 95% of the game, odd substitutions) that seemed less than optimal.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:25 am | #

This is a rhetorical question.

I'm glad it is, friend. If it wasn't, I'd blow every axon in my tiny brain trying to figure out an answer. :)
DJ | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:32 am | #

Even Coach Davie was able to lead the Irish to a blowout loss in a BCS game!
Fire Charlie | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:35 am | #

Working in D.C. and having an ND license plate frame meant that I got four honks and one "Go Navy" yell from Navy grads and dads during my commute this morning.

Thanks, Charlie, you ass. Thanks.
Joe from the YO | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:39 am | #

Joe from the YO-

Jay did indeed write it. If you'd like to read it again, go to the UM blog you seem to enjoy.

As for your claim of censorship, if you haven't noticed, it's Jay's blog. Start your own if you don't like what's going on here.
kmf | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:54 am | #

SBHomer, Willingham is playing with a more experienced team. We would be no better off with Willingham, please lets close the book on the unfortunate era of our history. Charlie made a huge blunder, the biggest ever, he put himself ahead of the team. Try the field goal, what have we got to lose, hell we are 1-7 at the time. Even if it is blocked and returned for a TD at least he was going for the win. If we make it, by god we win by three and that inspires the team. The facts are the facts, best to let it go and focus on the next opponent, Air Force. Hopefully, we defense them better, and get more offensive reps during regulation time. One of the problems with the D Saturday was that they couldnt get themselves off the field. We need more time of possession against AF. Charlie, you ALWAYS go for the win, ALWAYS.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:57 am | #

Did anyone notice that Navy did the same plays over and over ? which by the way was "toss the ball and run. At the end they got better at it. Why can't we just run the ball period if we have 5 running backs? Forget passing, to risky anyways at this point, just run at least we can say that we have something going. Go Irish
Jean | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:58 am | #

"We expect more from you than cursing"

Uhh....no we don't. What I would say most of us expect is that people like you realize this is their blog to write and post how they see fit. If you don't like it you can read something else.
Eddie | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 12:04 pm | #

This from the same clown who said ND 10-2.

Its the players. Who the hell can win with John Ryan as the starting OLB?
Mission | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 12:29 pm | #

I was sitting in the north end of the stadium on Saturday, and, given all of the circumstances, I can't fault Charlie for not kicking the FG. They tried one earlier WITH the wind and missed miserably. They just went on 4th and 15 and got 16 yards and a first down.

The call Charlie made that I do question is, why not run Hughes for the two point conversion rather than Thomas? As soon as I saw Thomas hesitate on that run (like he does so often) I knew the play was doomed. You can't dance on the goal line and expect success.
Oak | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 1:08 pm | #

I have not seen anyone on this blog or any other blog mention the loss of Pat Kuntz and how that played into the whole equation of the loss. I am thinking about Navy's final two plays - the touch down and the two point conversion. If Pat had been in there to get his big mitts up high, one of those might have been knocked down or at least altered. Plus, he is an emotional player. Losing him in the first half really affected our defense, especially our pass defense. I am as mad as anyone about not kicking the field goal, but I do not have the ability to know what Coach Weis knows or sees, so I cannot make that judgement from my couch. Although, at the time, a flurry of expletives was thrown at the TV.

Pat Kuntz has been a beast along the D line with Trevor Laws and I do not think his absence can be dismissed in regards to the game's outcome.

I am with Notre Dame for as long as I live. I am as mad as anyone, but I don't think firing Coach Weis is the answer. If this continues next year, then my opinion will change on our head coach, but I want to see what he learns from this season and what changes he makes in the Spring.

Congrats to Navy, they definitely deserved it. GO IRISH!
Jason D | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 1:35 pm | #

Oak, another reason the play was doomed was that I read that Paul Johnson basically told his players that ND was going to run. He just knew. That play never had a chance. Thomas got it in several times that day, just not that one. I don't think it was his fault. I'm not sure that Hughes would have gotten it in either, with Navy expecting run.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 1:38 pm | #

I have to agree with Oak on this one. We have two kickers who do not have the accuracy let alone the leg to hit a 41 yarder into the wind. Like Oak said, we tried to kick a field goal earlier with the wind and he badly shanked it wide. I was sitting in the student section and I could definitely feel the wind and I think Charlie made the smart play call there.

I do have to say, however, the fake field goal attempted by Charlie earlier in the game was quite stupid. That was a great moment to test your kicked into the wind and give him a chance when we were ahead. I think then we all could have made a better judgement on whether we should kick it later in the game into the wind.

In conclusion, when we were on the sideline, I was praying we would not kick it because I have zero confidence in our kicker. He has not showed us he is ready, and I am not about to put a game decider on some blind squirrel finding an acorn. As bad as our offense is, they showed more ability than our kicker.
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:02 pm | #

That's just my opinion, however, I can see arguments from both sides I just thought I would put my two cents in.
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:03 pm | #

nd17, I have no confidence in our kicker either. And I don't think very many Irish fans do. But, I think the prevailing thought is that he had more of a chance to make the field goal than the crappy Irish offense did of converting a (long) 4th down.

Whether that's actually true, who knows. Obviously, we did not convert the 4th down but Walker would have probably missed the field goal as well. I guess we were just plain screwed.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:27 pm | #

Jay - Your rant was a classic! I linked to it from my blog, and my wife liked your rant better than my write-up. She thought it was hysterical and she agreed with you.

Obviously it's your blog. But I hope you keep that tucked away somewhere for historical reference. It'll be fun to read in a few years when Charlie rights this ship.

Now I have to go and edit my blog because I have a bad link!
OC Domer | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:33 pm | #

Jade,
Haha, unfortunately I think you have finally put forth an answer that is correct. We were screwed either way...
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:34 pm | #

Here is some interesting news: Navy cancelled classes today to celebrate their win over our Irish...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com...n.ap/ index.html
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:35 pm | #

"If you don't like it you can read something else."

Uh, Eddie ... perhaps you haven't noticed, but this blog invites comments ... even comments that disagree with the original post. If you don't like the comments that are posted, perhaps it is you who should read something else.
rays15 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:36 pm | #

Do you ever resent the sense that Charlie Weis thinks he's smarter than everyone else? I mean seriously, what really is hurt by kicking that field goal? Navy gets the ball on the 31 instead of the 24? Why not give that kid a chance to be a hero.
BP | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:47 pm | #

ND 21, Navy 20 -- over 10 minutes to go. ND has been running the ball successfully for much of the third and early fourth quarter. Charlie calls an ineffective pass play and follows it with another pass which resulted in a fumble by Sharpley and a Navy touchdown. For the love of God, why can't he just be content with running some clock and pounding out some yardage. To me this was THE pivotal sequence in the game regardless of the bonehead move to not go for a field goal with 45 seconds left. Dan Devine would have rammed it down Navy's throat (or at least tried). Being at ND during the "Vegas right and Vegas left" days really makes me pine for an offense that can just win in the trenches. Not only did Charlie not show any confidence in his kicker, he showed no confidence in his running game when it really would have mattered.
Irish 83 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:55 pm | #

I think Charlie wanted to go for the field goal but Charlie Jr talked him out of it. At least that's a better explanation than Charlie's official version!
canuck 75 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:57 pm | #

. I'm pretty sure the conditional probability of getting 8 yards, holding on to the ball for a few downs (and not losing the yards we just gained), then kicking the FG from 10 to 15 yards closer is less than just kicking from 41. Especially since most of our FG misses are really bad shanks for which it doesn't matter if you are closer or not. Yeah, our kicker is shaky, but it's not like you are sending Quinn in instead of kicking, you are sending in an unreliable offense.
Animal | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 2:59 pm | #

I am still waiting for the NASTY to come. That is what Weis promised from DAY ONE.

WHERE IS THE NASTY!!??
Maynard | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:04 pm | #

Maynard, I think you're the only one still holding out hope for that.

I gave up on it long ago. CW has repeatedly demonstrated that he knows exactly what to say to get the fan base excited, to get our expectations up. The problem is that he never delivers the product.

Frankly, I no longer care about "nasty." I'd gladly go back to last-years finesse type team if it meant we could actually win an f-ing game.

At this point "nasty" is the farthest thing from my mind.
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:08 pm | #

Irish83 - You make a great point. I was thinking at the time, this is when Lou would have told his team we're gonna play smashmouth, take seven minutes off the clock and stick it in the end zone, game over because Navy wouldn't have had enough time left to come back with an option offense. And yet we went to the pass, first thing. Played right into their hands.
rays15 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:09 pm | #

rays15:

No one is telling you what type of comment you can or cannot put up but what too many people like yourself are doing is telling Jay and others what they can or cannot post on theior blog because you don't like cursing. Too that I say too fucking bad. I say post whatever they want in whatever form they want and we will deal with it. You, on the other hand, want to censor things because you can't bear to read a few bad words. God forbid! Oh wait, can't type that because I might upset someone in taking the lord's name in vain. Whatever.
Eddie | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:13 pm | #

I think Charlie out-thought himself on this one. Even if the 4th and 8 would have been successful, I still think most people would have said "phew, I'm glad we made it, but he still should have kicked the field goal." Whereas if he had tried the field goal and missed or it was blocked, I don't think anyone would be saying "wow, what was he thinking, he really should have put the offense on the field to try the 4th and 8."

I heard somewhere (may have been CW before halftime) that they did not have a defensive scheme to try and beat Navy this week. WTF, mate?!? How can you figure that your base defense with deep safeties is going to stop the option when it is designed specifically to beat said defense. You have 2 weeks to prepare for this game, so you make sure everyone has an assignment. There are only 4 assignments for 11 guys. 1) Fullback. 2) QB. 3) Pitchman. 4) someone to keep an eye on the deep pass. Truly I think we only really need to assign the first three, because I'd rather get beat by one or two deep balls than get beat on NINE MIINUTE TD drives because no one is taking the pitch man. At least your offense gets the ball back if you get beat deep.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:15 pm | #

"Seal Team" my ass!
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:17 pm | #

Also, I REALLY fail to see how you can have significantly more confidence in your kicker from a measley 4 yards closer. It's not like the difference between 50 yards and 55 yards where maybe he just sneaks it in over the crossbar from 50 but falls way short from 55. Distance is not the problem from 41 yards out. I truly don't think 4, or even 3 as CW has alluded, would have made a difference in accuracy. Just kick the ball and count on the prayers of all the ND faithful to get you through. No one was praying on 4th and 8 because we were too busy wondering why he was actually going for it instead of kicking the FG.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:18 pm | #

Thirdly, (wow I'm very opinionated today)...

If CW publicly acknowledges that he has zero confidence in his kicker from 41 yards out, why the hell isn't he doing everything he possibly can to secure us a recruit who can? Maybe he is and we don't know.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:19 pm | #

I am not sure I have made up my mind on this statement, but I want to throw something out there... What happened from the last two years to this year? We are all rightfully upset with CW, but did he make bonehead play calls last year and the year before? I am not trying to defend him, because I am quite upset, but I am confused as to how this happened.

We keep calling for him to resign or whatever, but I don't think anyone has come up with a good answer of what happened with his coaching from the last 2 years to this year. Clearly he did a good job for the past 2 years turning Brady Quinn into a great qb. He turned Samardzija into a great receiever, and before CW he never had a td catch in his career.

I personally am not on the blame Ty band wagon, but Ty didn't have great recruiting classes. They were mediocre at best, but certainly not aweful.

What I am trying to point out is that there is something different going on here than what is on the surface. I am not saying it is Charlie's fault, because I personally think it is his fault, but what is it? It can't really be play calling because he has displayed he is a damn good play caller in the past. It can't be player development because he took a class of mediorcre kids who went to the Insight Bowl to two straight BCS Bowls.

I just wanted to throw that out there, because I personally don't have a good answer to this. I do not know what happened to the CW that brought the Irish to two straight BCS Bowls and instilled a false sense of hope going into this season.
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:22 pm | #

I caught one mistake... "I am not saying it is Charlie's fault, because I personally think it is his fault, but what is it? It can't really be play calling because he has displayed he is a damn good play caller in the past. " I meant to say I am not trying to say it is not his fault.
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:25 pm | #

nd17, a bonehead move last year was letting Darius Walker disappear during the Sugar Bowl last year. He had 100+ yards in the first half and three in the second. Three.
marchand chronicles | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:27 pm | #

Charlie's quotes are very reminiscent of a certain other coach.

"That's why the previous play, you run the play to put it in position to get where we wanted to be to run the field goal. We didn't get any yards on the play."

"We were getting a lot of yards off that play, just didn't pan out on that play."

Sounds like bad luck lost this game.
Optimus Prime | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:29 pm | #

Guys, My post getting on Jay for his 10-2 prediction yet still questioning the field goal decision, was removed.

Ok- fair. This is their site and I am slamming the Guy.

But my point remains- the team has terrible players. Weis has to do what he can. Honest fans called for a 7-5 season for a reason. Of course, the team has well underperformed that but the players need a heep of blame. How about a huge thread calling out John Ryan?
Mission | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:40 pm | #

Mission, why call out one player?
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:50 pm | #

you know what concerns me? not only do some of his calls make little (or no) sense, so do the explanations as to why he made those calls in the first place.

almost seems like there's no oxygen getting to his head.

and i agree with irish 83...we had run the ball pretty well (for us) up to that point. why not just keep running it and try to take some time off the clock? navy was the one that needed the ball back. and on the fumble, it almost looked like the whole line and allen were setting up a screen, but sharpley was looking the other way for a totally different play.
yz | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:52 pm | #

Mission:

Over a quarter of all of ND fandom predicted 10-2. In fact, 75% predicted 9-3 or better. How do we know this? We ran a survey with 2,244 participants:

http://www.createsurvey.com/cgi-...=56480& m=Xolp4w

Feel free to single me out, though. Call me a 'clown' for my prediction. I gladly accept the label. That's fine. I was way off.

But to say that 'honest fans predicted 7-5' is severely rewriting history. The truth is, most ND fans anticipated a season similar to what we'd had the last two years: 9-3 or 10-2. Most fans had much higher hopes for this season, and to blast them now for their optimism back in August is unseemly and self-serving.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 3:59 pm | #

Jay, you will be hard pressed to find those 2200+ now. I was one who thought 9-3 maybe even 10-2 with loses to USC and Michigan. I knew we were going to have some inexperience and youth,but I never thought this would happen. I then figured 5-7, so now Charlie has put the gorilla directly on his back.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 4:05 pm | #

"Do you ever resent the sense that Charlie Weis thinks he's smarter than everyone else?"

Oh, yeah!
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 4:13 pm | #

I can understand criticism of Weis' decision to not kick the field goal. But I think it is obvious he was playing to win the game. While Ford argues Weis may have been worried about Navy driving down the field, to me it seems plain that Weis thought he could get a first, and then kick a shorter, much higher percentage FG. Walker's been very good in close distance (inside 30 yards) but bad outside of that range (only 1-5). I think the wind is a factor, and we should stop thinking of it as a 41-yarder with some wind and more like a straight up 45- or 50-yarder. If he could have kicked a 50-yarder with no wind, what would the sentiment on this board be?
IrishGush | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 4:25 pm | #

He kicked a 48 yarder with no wind 3 games ago. The consensus should still have been for him to go for it. What made the decision all the worse. At least for me personally. Was that he put the kicker on the field. Then talked himself out of it. How many times have you been told to always go with your 1st instinct? Ask any ACT/SAT prep person and they will give you that same advice. Maybe Charlie needs some standardized testing prep?
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 4:34 pm | #

I think the wind is a factor, and we should stop thinking of it as a 41-yarder with some wind and more like a straight up 45- or 50-yarder. If he could have kicked a 50-yarder with no wind, what would the sentiment on this board be?

I don't know about the board, but if the kicker had the leg to go 50 with no wind, Weis would have kicked the field goal.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 4:36 pm | #

If 75% of ND fandom believed that the team would be 9-3 or better this year, doesn't speak volumes about Weis' ineptitude this year? As the season has progressed and the losses have rolled in, ND fans, including the proprietors of this blog, have presented numerous excuses for the team's struggles, including the previous regime's recruiting and the youth of the current team. But given that the vast majority of ND's fandom thought that the current talent on this team would win around 9 games, how can the blame fall on anyone other than Weis at this point. Maybe 9-3 was overly optimistic, but 1-8 is inexcusable. The team is not THAT bad, and it is crystal clear that Charlie Weis is in WAY over his head.
Anon | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 4:38 pm | #

Eddie - I challenge you to find one example of when I ever suggested censorship. In fact, I have never said that I was upset about any of the language. I am just pointing out to you that the blog is an opinion, and the comments are also opinions. To say someone should leave because they disagree with the blog is asinine ... exactly as asinine as my saying you should leave if you disagree with the comments. I'm sorry that the irony was too far over your head, I will spell out it more directly next time.
rays15 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 4:42 pm | #

Weis is in way over his head, and you guys are also the most delusional bunch of delusionists ever to delusionalize here on the delusionet.

HTH.
M1EK | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 5:11 pm | #

I think it's really unfortunate he didn't try to kick the field goal, especially because Tom Zbikowski had set up the field position with a stellar punt return. One more contribution from a guy who's given us a heck of a lot to cheer for over the years.

What a shame.

So, anybody know anything about Air Force?

Seven and three is all I know.

I imagine they'll be smallish, quick, tough, and motivated.

It's pile-on time in South Bend, and the team can really show what they're made of by reaching down and pulling out a victory this Saturday.

Someday, when the breaks are beating the boys, and all that...

Go Irish!
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 5:20 pm | #

I agree with the previous comment. Someone earlier in these commments said, "I still think Charlie Weiss is the right man." BASED ON WHAT? Time to start thinking about the future, and the future, based on all available evidence, is not with Charlie. Two names to start thinking about: Jim Grobe from Wake Forest and Randy Edsal from UConn. Both have taken minor programs a long way and at least one (Grobe) has had to coach at an academiclly demanding school. Weis is not the right guy, and unfortunately it looks like he never was.
Bob | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 5:23 pm | #

At places like ND and Michigan, players perform much better when they are in the middle of a storm. They don't want themselves to be blamed for a loss. Around 20 years back, your field goal kicker won the game for you against Michigan. Bottom line, they'll perform.

Chuck The Genius seem to revel in taking the emotion part out and looks at players as robots who execute his complicated offense. It sends a terrible message to his kicker.

Anyway, there is something terribly wrong with your program and it's not the youth. You had a better recruiting class for the past 5 years than MSU, GT and Purdue. The sooner you come out of denial, the better for you and worse for the rest of college football.
Johnny Drama | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 5:27 pm | #

Johnny,

Better recruiting classes than Navy over the past 5 years as well. Don't forget them.
Anon | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 5:37 pm | #

Bob, why would Grobe leave Wake or Edsal UConn? They are on top of the world right now at those two schools.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 5:52 pm | #

Charlie has had a rough year no doubt. But we shouldn't let him off hook because of lack of a talented Senior class. I was checking the Ohio State starting line up and in their pro set offense and defense, I counted 1 Senior. On the same site (rivals) I counted ND had 9 Seniors. Either the Weiss recruits aren't as good as advertised to break into the line up or Weiss' pro background didn't prepare him for the amount player development required in College. Charlie deserves another year to clean up his mess but he should be on a short lease.
4070 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 6:19 pm | #

Marchand, I can give you two contributing factors to the disappearance of Walker in the second half vs. LSU.

1) LSU made a halftime adjustment to take away the runs that were beating them, and it worked.

2) Our defense put on an ole act, so after a couple of LSU possessions, the lead was so big that the only chance to try to win was to pass.

I felt, at the time, that LSU and the circumstances took away the run, not Weis's playcalling.
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 6:19 pm | #

Look, let's be honest:

Pre season analysis:
--finally building some depth at the O line
--QB position battle with potential superstars
--4 different, talented young RBs (4 horses running downhill!!!)
--new defensive coordinator
--improved secondary

I mean, when you look at it on paper, I actually think it was pretty reasonable to think we might go 9-3. Now really, are you going to knock fans for being optimistic about the season? My optimistic side would say 10-2, my pessimistic side would say 5-7.

People who hate us think we're delusional and are now finally being brought down to reality.

I don't care what anybody says, going 1-8 with this team just does not add up.
Shadow Hawkins | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 6:20 pm | #

shawn sucks.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 6:25 pm | #

Shadow, there are two problems: First is that the O-line has been inept this season. "Finally building some depth" doesn't amount too much if none of it performs. Second is that two of the "potential superstar" QBs transferred (one after losing the job, one after shitting the bed against Georgia Tech), and the third was not at full strength and subsequently got injured.

Actually, there's a third problem, too, the performance of the WRs... but unlike the other two, that's not something too many people were optimistic about going into the season, and as time has shown, with good reason.
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 6:30 pm | #

Don't waste your time trying to analyze all positions and how they have underperformed. The only reason that ND is Gawd-awful is the offensive line. If they could block at all, QB's throw better, backs run better, receivers get open and catch better, defense gets breathers and plays better. I hate to oversimplify, but the o line is the primary problem. The second problem is why the hell is CW allowing it and not making sure it is corrected. We're going into the friggin 10th game and I have seen virtually no improvement whatsoever. Latina and Mendoza got some 'splainin' to do. Can't block + physically weak = team in a death spiral.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 6:48 pm | #

addendum:

I have never seen a good football team with a bad offensive line, and I have never seen a bad football team with a good offensive line. That cannot be said about any other position. This ain't rocket science.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 6:52 pm | #

What is the endgame to this season? What's with some students booing Charlie Weis when the band played the 1812 Overture this past Saturday? Some students at ND want Charlie fired right now with the alumni picking up the substantial buy-out tab, per Observer article. If ND could not prepare for predictable Navy, what will happen if hapless Duke pulls a surprise? Is it better to have self restraint in the last few games, or better to express disatisfaction audibly and through other media? Too many questions, no easy answers.
Thomas | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:03 pm | #

Voice, you have stood by that all year and so have I, it all begins with the OLine. Nine games into the season and we are still giving up sacks, multiple sacks and still struggling to get short yardage. Maybe the next OLine coach needs to go with Joe Moore's head kicking drill that Aaron Taylor talked about. Without a good OLine, nothing works. Next year, same thing if the OLine doesnt make drastic improvement. We can sit and analyze CW all we want, but as Voice says, this aint rocket science. Toughness, drive, determination and strength on the OLine will solve a lot of problems.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:10 pm | #

Thomas, we need to support the team and the coach for the rest of the year. Charlie isnt going anywhere next year. We need to keep the recruiting class that is being built, to bring a new coach in now could cause disaster for a far longer period of time. A new coach may not keep Corwin Brown who is proving to be a tremendous asset with recruits and is going to develop into an outstanding defensive co-ordinator. We need to weather this storm and come back fighting. If we have a good season next year then we know it was the youth and inexperience, if it is bad again we know that the coach is wrong. There is a lot of talent being collected and we dont want big loses in the recruiting class.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:17 pm | #

Question re OL:
Are we all assuming the Offensive Linemen recruited by Ty are Division 1A talent and is the assumption correct? Does anyone remember the Ross twins in BB? Maybe the OLs are 1A talent but if not, all the coaching in the world won't make them 1A talent.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:34 pm | #

Thank you, Doug.
I wish Aaron Taylor would give Charlie a call and ask for the o line position coach job. And Oklahoma strength coach Jerry Schmidt needs to be hired whatever the cost. Schmidt, believe it or not, has National Championship rings from Notre Dame ('88), Florida ('96), and Oklahoma, as he was strength coach at each respective school for their championship teams. He won't come cheap. Incidentally, he was Aaron Taylor's strength coach at ND. He knows how to make young kids get big and strong and fast.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:37 pm | #

"Can someone do one of those logic chains that says Delaware > Navy, Navy > Notre Dame, therefore Delaware > Notre Dame"?

Will Sagarin do? He has 17 AA teams ranked ahead of Notre Dame. Delaware is among them, rated 7 points better. Yale is a tad higher.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/s...garin/ fbt07.htm

"What's worse in the college football landscape, Michigan's loss to Appalachian State, or our loss to Navy?"

Well, Michigan's loss was a double-digit point upset by Sagarin (though hardly anything like the "upset of the century" as so many described it at the time) while he had Navy ranked higher than ND last week. So Michigan's loss was "worse" by that measure.

But ND's decline to the point where it would be an underdog to Navy, Delaware, and even Yale on Yale's home field (a push on a neutral field) by objective ranking systems like Sagarin's is by far the bigger change in the college scene.

Michigan's upset loss was one-and-done. This continues. Air Force, Stanford and Duke are all now ranked higher than ND by Sagarin. Losing out is not an impossibility.

If all of this is on Willingham's recruiting, he must have been the single worst recruiter in human history -- his recruits supplemented by all of Charlie's great recruits to date almost match Yale.
Jim G | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:39 pm | #

Spurrier lured Schmidt to Florida when Bob Davie chose not to retain him after Lou was pushed out. Then Bob Stoops pulled up in a Brinks truck and lured Schmidt to Norman immediately after he was hired to coach OU.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:41 pm | #

Voice,

I have been saying the same thing since the Michigan game. It all starts with the O-Line. It isn't too hard to figure out. When the defense only has to rush 4 players to get to the QB, the other 7 guys only have to cover 2 or 3 receivers. Same thing happened in the LSU game last year. They were getting so much pressure that ND had to use 2 and 3 TE sets just to block four guys. Throw in a QB who still doesn't know when to scramble and when to get rid of it.

Personally I thought the worst play of the game was not the sack on 4th down, but the sack along the sideline when Sharpley could have merely flicked it out of bounds instead of taking a sack 8 yards back when he is practically out of bounds. That was a rookie mistake and a bad one at that.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 7:53 pm | #

Jim G, thanks for finding the analysis.

This circumstance we find ourselves in reminds me of the line in "Wake Up the Echoes" where the narrator talks about looking beneath the "mountains of defeat" (I think that is the quote) to find the gem that was, in that case, the "Golden Boy" Paul Hornung, who won the Heisman trophy after a 1-win season.

There was also another season where the service depleted Irish won almost no games (somebody else give me the correct W-L record) only to "roar back" the following year to avenge all those defeats.

Keep the faith.
GO IRISH!
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:04 pm | #

Dozier,
I am with you and I hope for better times. I keep on thinking back to the famous Knute Rockne speech and I feel better.

One problem we must all think about at this point in time is if we fire Charlie, you can wave goodbye to our #1 recruiting class. I have a feeling we should be able to keep our class especially with the verbal commit of Floyd and Gray. Those were two big recruits that likely gave a ton of confidence to all the other recruits who already committed.

Just something to think about.
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:20 pm | #

Damn,Voice, I wish we would smack someone in the mouth. That was the beauty of Ara and Lou, we are going to line up and run the ball. If you dont stop us we will have our way with you. We will throw when we want and we will get a yard when we need it, that was simple but it was damn beautiful.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:25 pm | #

rays15:

You do whatever you want seeing as how you are so smart. Better yet, stop sticking your two cents into an original comment that was not meant for you but for someone who was highly critical of Jay because of the content of his post and the words he used and how "we" expected better of him. My point, which you clearly missed despite you being oh so brilliant, was that the guys of BGS should be able to post whatever they want as it is their blog, not ours. Therefore, if any of us do not like the content of their posts we can can always go elsewhere, myself included. Next time I'll try to spell it out more clearly for you but, again, given you are oh so brilliant I wouldn't think I'd have to.
Eddie | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:31 pm | #

Dozier:
Great post. Here some histrical perspective:

1. In 1933, ND lost 5 games --total number of points scored in those 5 losses--ZERO.

2. In 1956, ND scored 130 points in 10 games, gave up 289.

3. In 1960, ND scored 111 points in 10 games.

4. In 1963, ND scored 108 points in 9 games. IN 1964, same players, ND scored 289 points.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:32 pm | #

nd17, from the looks of things, I am in the minority, but I am not on the "fire-Charlie" bandwagon yet, not by a long shot.
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:45 pm | #

Charlie basically just fills up space with rationalization, Jay. Bottom line: He thought there was a better chance we'd convert that 4th down than that we'd make that field goal. Clearly 99.9% of the ND nation disagrees with him.

I tell ya what I find disconcerting right now:

1) Weis "accepts responsibility for the loss" as always. Not only has the refreshing nature of this line post-Willingham lost its cuteness, but the fact is he said this (I assume), and then proceeds to defend the two calls in the game that were absolutely his fault (Fake FG run on 4th/15 and going for it instead of 41yd FG). That's a contradiction, really. What would be in line with accepting responsibility for the loss would be an answer of "I was wrong. That was a stupid decision and I personally cost us the game. I apologize to the team and to Notre Dame fans for those two boneheaded decisions."

2) While I take comfort in the fact that nobody can claim "Notre Dame can't keep up with talent these days because of its harsh academic policies" given our recruiting classes, I can't think of one person who would be ready to take Charlie's job who would be able to continue to do the things he does well (recruiting, "getting" Notre Dame, game-planning with an experienced offense) but who would also make up for the things he continues to do poorly (motivation, player development, staff hiring/listening). For this reason I hope to God Charlie improves.
Tommy O | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:46 pm | #

Dozier:
Kudos--you are not on the bandwagon because you are not letting your emotions totally cloud your judgment.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:47 pm | #

Lush, it would be neat if someone could put something together showing, let's say, Notre Dame's 10 worst seasons, and then contrast the following season against each of those 10 seasons.
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:48 pm | #

Dozier:
Let me work on it.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:49 pm | #

Lush, have it on my desk by first thing in the morning [insert sense of humor here].
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:57 pm | #

Seriously, thanks. I will be curious to see the "turn-around" following our 10 worst seasons.
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 8:58 pm | #

Dozier:
One key point. Some of our turnaround seasons occurred when a new coach was hired, others did not.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:00 pm | #

Doug,
Smash mouth got boring to lots of people who wanted scoring, scoring, and more scoring. The old AFL and offense-minded genius Sid Luckman started winging the ball around in the early 1960's, and it was sexy. That's why purists prayed Lombardi's Packers would beat the Raiders and Chiefs. Then Joe Willie Namath beat the Colts in Super Bowl III and the game changed forever.
Fast forward to Walsh's West Coast offense and everyone wanted their team to be just like that.
Now we realize the beauty of controlling a game and dominating our opponents. Now we pray for the return of the day when we can keep the ball on the ground, rush for 250 yards, control the clock and pick up every 3rd and 3. Smash Mouth is beautiful.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:05 pm | #

Voice, do you really think that smash-mouth can work in this era of speedy players? Do you have any examples of teams that succeed at either the college or the pro level? I cannot think of one, but I do like the idea.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:12 pm | #

Then again, what I mostly like is the idea of being able to get a yard whenever we want. It doesn't matter to me how we get it, just that we're skilled and tough enough to get it even when the other team knows it.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:14 pm | #

Wind? There was no head wind blowing North to South. The wind was a cross wind from West to East.

Didn't anybody at the game notice this? Charlie did not.
posty | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:16 pm | #

Good point, Lush. Looks like you just made your job a little harder. How about 2 breakdowns? One, 10 worst seasons, and then the following season, regardless of coaching change. And the other, 10 worst seasons, when the same coach remained in place the following year? Too much to ask?
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:16 pm | #

Lou ntl, you are right. We should be able to get a yard anytime we need it. Regardless of style of offense, field conditions (weather), or game circumstances. It should be the rare exception (read: LB blitz or lucky gamble by a d-lineman shooting a gap) when we can't churn out one stinkin' yard at will.
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:22 pm | #

posty, I was sitting in the south end zone and the wind was in my face. The flags by the north scoreboard were moving west to east most of the game, but the wind changed direction and picked up early in the fourth quarter. At least, that's how it seemed to me. I also thought that Navy, not ND, committed pass interference at the start of the fourth quarter, and I thought that it was a critical call. It must have looked different on TV, as no one is mentioning it now. (Not that it excuses ND's blown chances after that play.)
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:24 pm | #

Dozier, I may not be as thorough as Lush:
1933 3-5-1
1934 6-3-1

1950 4-4-1
1951 7-2-1

1956 2-8
1957 7-3

1981 5-6

1982 6-4-1

1985-86 5-6
1987 8-4

1999 5-7
2000 9-3

2001 5-6
2002 10-3

2003 5-7
2004 6-6

1958-59 5-5
1960 2-8
1961-62 5-5
1963 2-7
1964 9-1
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:28 pm | #

1933-Anderson
1934-Layden

1950-51-Leahy
1956-57-Brennan

1981-82-Faust

1985-86-87-Faust and Holtz

99-00-Davie

01-Davie
02 Willingham
03-04-Willingham
05-Weis
58-Brennan
59-62-Kuharich
63-Devore
64-Parseghian
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 9:49 pm | #

The field goal was definitely into the wind. I can attest to that along with many many other people in that stadium.

Dozier, I am trying to get thru this season as best as I can. Seeing as this is my senior year, that is quite difficult. But I can't say firing Charlie is the answer. I am with you.
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:04 pm | #

oh and we are definitely in the minority right now.
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:04 pm | #

Lou,ntL,
I don't really have a desire to roll back the clocks to 1957, but I would like to see a return of a diverse offense predicated first and foremost on the run game. I enjoy vertical passing as much as anyone, but until defenses respect our run game, the passing game is not going to click. And until our line can protect the QB when only four DL's rush, we're always going to have seven defenders in coverage. I think our backs are probably terrific, but it is difficult to really know how good they are. Jim Brown in his prime couldn't average 3 yards per carry running behind our perplexing line.
Running the damn ball is Football 101, and that is one reason I am baffled by CW's bullheadedness. He absolutely understands that we need to establish strong, straight ahead line play FIRST. That is Notre Dame's historic identity for a reason: It works. But for some reason he refuses to commit himself to the development of a strong running game. The whole Demetrius Jones thing was just a ruse. He never planned for DJ to run any form of a spread option offense, because if he had, Latina would have prepared the o line to go shoulder-to-shoulder and get ugly little four yard gains all day long against anybody. But our o line looks like they would rather be boiled in oil than actually hit somebody. The very culture of the program is softer than I have ever seen it, and makes CW's "all day tough" guarantee all the more puzzling and, sadly, laughable.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:07 pm | #

This is going to sound a lot like an excuse, but I think it needs to be said...

Playing our 8 toughest games of the season in the first 8 weeks of the season was too much for a young team's psyche. How could they have confidence enough to beat Navy when their last game was a 38-0 drubbing to become 1 and 7 overall?

For all we know, the week-by-week approach of Weis and coaches had helped overcome that disappointment. Then the news hits that a teammate's brother was murdered. So the team, correctly, supports the young man through the funeral services.

Did anyone else go to the Friday pep rally? It was my first one in years, but it felt like more dirge than pep. The words were fine, but the tone was terribly somber.

Maybe the players succeeded in reaching the mindset that they were going to win a game for Robert Hughes and his brother, rest in peace. Then they hear the P.A. announce the death of Notre Dame running great Ryan Shay. That's an awful lot of bad news for a mature team to bear, and this is not yet a mature team.

I still expect better things against the last 3 opponents.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:15 pm | #

Air Force is just like Navy in the guts and determination department. Duke is Duke, but they have Peter Vaas who probably wants a victory over CW more than we could possibly imagine. Stanford beat the guys who beat us 38-0. I say going 2-1 over the last three would be a miracle, 3-0 a Sovereign Miracle of God, 1-2 a probability, and 0-3 a distinct possibility.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:27 pm | #

nd17, keep the faith. I was on campus through the Faust years (class of '86).

Trust me when I tell you, not only is there more to life than Notre Dame football, but there is more to Notre Dame than Notre Dame football. Sounds cliche, I know, but true, nonetheless.

I bleed blue and gold, and I love Our Lady. I don't just talk the talk. I walk the walk (no kidding, I named my business after my undergraduate dorm). Good luck, enjoy your senior year and support our team, regardless of our record. - GO IRISH!
Dozier | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:33 pm | #

Voice, my little soapbox about emotions was not intended to be a reply to your continuation of the smash-mouth thread. Hopefully it was clearly a separate idea.

Regarding the running game, I mostly agree with you. The thing is, it seemed to me (in the stands) that ND was making decent running gains versus the Navy defense. Looking at the box score, the Irish as a team did indeed surpass the 3.0 ypc mark. Excluding Sharpley, the team averaged 4.4 ypc. My question now, as it was in the stands, is why not stick with the run?

Mirko Jurkovic, on the post-game radio show, sounded totally perplexed about the ND o-line, but to me they did enough with the running attack to get ND a win. I take issue with everyone jumping on Weis for the 4th down call at the end of regulation, because I think that particular call in isolation was understandable. What confused me was the insistence on passing throughout the game and especially in the second half.

Do you really think that the Jones option offense was a ruse? That's a strong claim.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:36 pm | #

Apparently the Steelers' coach just told ESPN's sideline reporter that Pittsburgh needs to be the "more violent" team. They're up 35-7 as I type. Maybe that's the coach you need to talk to the Irish, Voice.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:40 pm | #

Sorry, [fellow] ND fans, but here is the straight poop, if you've got the stomach for it.

Bad news: Charlie Weis himself is the principal problem.

Worse news: a leopard cannot change its spots. Charlie Weis is arrogant, does not listen, and is not going to change fundamentally.

Worst news of all: because of the contract (and because we don't want to scare away future prospects) we're stuck with this uninspired oaf for at least another two years.

And that means another two years, at least, of completely uninspired football, despite high talent levels.

And, at some deep unspoken level, ND fans everywhere are aware of these evident truths. And THAT is why there is so much rage at this time.

This is not about the field goal call or losing to Navy. Never has been. This is about realizing that Charlie Weis is really quite a mediocre head coach and (thanks to Kevin White) we're in for YEARS of more of the same.

I don't blame Jay for the post. In fact, I commend him. He was merely expressing the TOTAL frustration most ND fans are feeling at this point in Weis' tenure.

Wish I could be more positive, but that is my take on our situation at this point in time.
Karamazov | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:43 pm | #

One last comment: I have never really noticed or been bothered by Weis' so-called arrogance. However, it annoyed me that he took great pains at the pep rally to tell the fans to be respectful of Navy, as it came across like ND fans don't already know that. I mean, that's why the series is special, because ND fans are genuinely respectful of the sacrifices of the Midshipmen. I wish Coach Weis had done more to tell what *to* cheer for, rather than what not to cheer for.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:46 pm | #

Karamazov:
Contrary to your generalizations, ND fans "everywhere" are not aware of these "evident truths". Your opinion does not equate to unversal fact. The comments on this blog alone prove this.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 10:57 pm | #

Lush-

Okay, so you personally didn't have the stomach for it. Nothing to be ashamed of. I did try to forewarn you, though. Okay, for you I'll amend my comment, since you're such an expert.

Notre Dame's gonna be 9-3 next season. Notre Dame's gonna be 9-3 next season. Repeat as necessary.
Karamazov | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:18 pm | #

I don't really understand why Weis's so called arrogance is always brought up. First, his arrogance is always blown way out of proportion. Second, he is by nature a confident man (which I might add is needed to be coach of ND) and that can come across as arrogant, especially to an always prodding media. Lastly, this arrogance thing needs to be dropped because he is a very respectful person who has started some great traditions here at ND, such as having our players join their players for the Naval Academies Alma Mater.

Before I conclude, let me give you a story that might show you what kind of man CW is. One of my friends once had the pleasure of having lunch with Coach Weis. Once the lunch was concluded he let a curse word slip infront of some ladies near by. CW made my friend go over to them and apologize for poor use of language infront of ladies.

I have many more stories I could share with you, but let me just say, Lou ntL, drop the whole arrogance thing. Look at his mentor Bill Belichick, he is certainly "arrogant" but look at his success. And if you say ND is looking for something more than an arrogant person, look at CW's track record and all th wonderful things he has done as a person. His character is not up for debate like his coaching job is.
Why? | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:20 pm | #

Lush,

Remove the rose colored glasses, put down the kool aid and open your eyes. The Irish are 1-8 my man and are showing no signs of real improvement. There is no silver lining to this miserable season. Irish have lost 9 of their 10 last games by an average of 24 points. We've lost 3 highly touted players and the best Charlie can say is that they were just back ups. Maybe if he developed his "back ups" we wouldn't be 1-8 right now. Dozens of schools perform better every Saturday and they don't have the level of recruits that ND enjoys. Wisconsin is one of them, BC another. CW may be an offensive genius but he doesn't get the head coaching thing. His players languish and never improve. He makes bad personnel choices (Travis Thomas at the goal line????)and his arrogance knows no bounds. Bottom line is that he doesn't develop players. Perhaps he thinks this is the NFL. It's not. We'd all love for Charlie to succeed but objectively speaking he has shown that he cannnot and will not change. He needs to be held accountable to the players, students and the fans.
Tridentum | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:25 pm | #

The change in tone of these comments is palpable.

Valid criticism of Weis' playcalling? Present and appropriate.

Venom-spitting that followed the last post? Negligible.

I can't believe what a strong influence this blog has over the dialogue of the ND community, but it certainly does. I hope (and know) that Jay and co. are fully aware of this.

Thanks, BGS.
irishru2 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:26 pm | #

Why?, I respect the efforts of Coach Weis outside of his professional work. I've given to the Hannah and Friends program. My comment was probably poorly worded, but I thought that Weis' pep rally tangent about respecting Navy was unhelpful, uninspiring, and condescending. That's not meant to be a knock on his character, but rather a knock on his ability to motivate the fans. Recalling his talk at the 2005 USC pep rally, it seems like his bravado approach works better when the team is winning. I was a student when Lou Holtz was coach, and Holtz was always self-deprecating to the point that people thought he was insincere. I guess it is a matter of style.

You are right that it's unfair to label a person as arrogant, or anything else of a personal nature, without actually knowing him or her. I should not have prefaced my comment about the pep rally with a reference to the oft-discussed "arrogance" issue. Sorry.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:32 pm | #

Tridentum,
I can't say I totally disagree with you but what do you say about player development in Quinn and Samardizja (I think that is spelled right...)? You can't say they were developed under Ty because Jeff never caught a touchdown pass until CW. And I forget the statistic but he caught a ton that year. Maybe it is fundementals which he forgot to teach the kids. In that case, it is clear he is already addressing that problem, I just think it is too late to see the effects at this point. I personally believe next season will be the telling year, and if he can't show significant improvement... well should be very worried about his job.

Oh yeah, not to mention we would lose all of our recruits if we fired him this year.
nd17 | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:32 pm | #

Lou ntL,
Not a problem. And I agree he may come off as arrogant, and I am sorry I flipped as well. I just see a lot of people mention that about him and I see it as a mute point. I wasn't at the pep-ralley so I canot say I know what he said, but I believe he said basically the same thing two years ago when Navy came here to ND. Again sorry.
why? | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:35 pm | #

Why?-
As an undergraduate, I attended daily mass in the Crypt under Sacred Heart Church on campus. Gerry Faust was there just about every single day as well; he is a devout Catholic and a very good person.

But that is to miss the point. You can be a fine person in terms of your character, and still be a very poor head coach of Div I football.

I'm sure Weis is a fine husband and father and all that good stuff. It's not to "judge" him morally. When people say he is arrogant, I think what they mean is that his self-assurance oftentimes impedes his ability to listen to others and learn from them. More of a practical issue than a 'moral defect' as such.

I'd be willing to bet Charlie Weis is as upstanding a person as you will ever meet personally. But I still say he is a mediocre head coach of Div. I football due to his refusal to take to heart valid criticisms.
Karamazov | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:36 pm | #

Karamazov,
Well first off, I want to point outthe different between arrogance in the press room to arrogance at practice and in coaches meetings. I can't say that I am there at his meetings with his coaches, but I would bet that he does listen to them. Either way, however, no one is there, so where it matters no one can say anything. In the press room he is taking bullets question after question. It is not the job of the press to tell him to run or throw the ball. That is the job of his fellow coaches. So I don't know how anyone can call him arrogant, because where it matters most in terms of being a good coach, no one else is there.
why? | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:41 pm | #

Oh and he does take the blame for this year. But for instance, if he does disagree with an an assessment of the press, he should tell the truth so that people somewhat know what went through his mind in making some key game decision.
why? | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:43 pm | #

and by the way, I am not saying he is doing a great job coaching. I just think this arrogance thing is always blown out of proportion. But now I feel like I am aiding in that so after this comment I am done. But please feel free to keep posting on it, I am intersted to hear everyone's side of the story.
why? | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:46 pm | #

I think that is a good point, why? (tough handle). I've never once heard Weis talk badly about a player in public. Further, I thought that it was obvious on Saturday that the team played hard to the very end. They may not be in the right places, or move quickly enough, or have the necessary skills, but I do not question their hearts. I know it sounds bad, but I could not say the same about the teams in 2003 and 2004.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:48 pm | #

No one replied earlier in this thread, so I must ask again -- was the pass interference call against ND at the start of the 4th quarter a fair call? From the stands, it looked like our DB (Walls?) had position and would have picked off the pass if not for interference from the Navy receiver. I thought it was key play in the game...
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:52 pm | #

y'all are worse than george steinbrenner. Here's an idea, lets keep a coach for more than 50% of a contract...This is the reason why the rest of college football hates us, a bad season and everyone hits the panic button. Who else is going to coach there brain-trust? Do you really expect Kevin White to do a better job? I am not making excuses just looking at fact. Its a huge contract so sit down, take a drink and deal.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.05.07 - 11:58 pm | #

And another thing, we had numerous chances to win that game/change the outcome before said 4th down attempt. Does anyone remember the fumble for a TD? The dropped pass in the endzone by Parris? We even had chance to intercept a pass in overtime to end the game. It was obvious that our defense could not contain for anything. All the things you want to spout about how we forced them to punt twice. That defensive performance was subpar for a good portion of the game, our outside could not contain at all. What did the streak mean to you? Did you wake up Saturday energized by a 43 game streak? I would say no. We lost, not because of one call and were in the position to win the game despite many failings of our players. The coach put us in the position and we could not execute. One call suspect? Sure. But how about you look at the game as a whole.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 12:13 am | #

Why?-
I'll be honest with you, I'm basing my opinion on two things: anecdotal evidence from what I consider reliable sources in and around campus and Weis' behavior at press conferences.

I'll elaborate a bit on the latter. You can say that Charlie 'takes questions' from the press and to a degree that's true. But let's be totally honest here: Charlie's a big man with a fairly short temper and a sharp tongue. He has those reporters completely whipped in my opinion. You can absolutely hear it in their voices: they cringe as they speak and they tip-toe around Big Charlie. They know, on the one hand, that he may embarrass them with a quick, mean-spirited one-liner or, on the other hand, that he may simply revoke their invitation to the press conferences.

In my opinion, the Weis press conferences are all "underhand slow pitch" (mostly carefully-worded, gentle questions) because everyone knows Charlie's got a nasty temper and he's not afraid to smash anybody who steps out of line. Ever see how he glares at people who criticise him? I've seen most of his pressers and can attest to this fearful attitude of the reporters because I've heard it for myself.

As for how his meetings with his assistant coaches go, it doesn't take a genius to extrapolate from the tone in the press conferences to what the tone must be in his meetings. Add to that the fact that Weis is their BOSS, who can fire them, and I'd be willing to bet he's made sure he's surrounded by 'yes men'.

The 'arrogant' label is not completely without foundation. Charlie Weis is short-tempered, sharp-tongued, and generally dismissive of criticism of his decisions.

Just an opinion.
Karamazov | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 12:19 am | #

We don't know what goes on in practice but I challenge anyone to watch all nine games this year and tell me Charlie is communicating and getting through to these kids. That is not happening. There is no connection. They look lost. There is no passion or intensity. It isn't unusual for players to transfer; it is unusual for three to transfer during the season. Even if some of them tranferred for boneheaded reasons, the fact that it happened is still a red flag. I believe it stems from CW's mishandling of the QB situation in camp. I think some of them felt CW was a liar and that he mistreated Demetrius or something like that, and that he was going to stab them in the back. This may not be true, but the fact that the team divided and so many were alienated and chose sides does not bode well, because CW didn't take control of the team. All of which worries me, because leading a college team is VASTLY DIFFERENT than coaching in the NFL.

There are no fundamentals. I don't see the fundamentals being addressed. I think Ty taught his players fundamentals and CW came in and took them to another level. I don't care about youth at this point. What I care about is that as more and more of Ty's players leave, the team gets worse and worse. Yet we hear that CW is a brilliant recruiter. But guys, come on, these rankings of high school players are hardly definitive or determinative of future success. So many players who were not projected as top anything turn out to be pros, or turn out to be stars and great contributors. They are rated on some scout's evaluation that they have ability and potential. It is the job of college coaches to teach them how to play. Again, this is different than what you do in the pros, where you're focusing on matchups and schemes.

CW doesn't like rah rah stuff. I sympathize, I don't like it either, which is why I don't coach. But everyone knows that rah rah motivational stuff is necessary at the college level. We all know this. But I don't sense that there is great unity on this team. Yes, some went to the funeral for Hughes, of course they did, any coach and team would (except for, who was it, Louisville or some team who chose to play the game two days after the player was killed?) When I watch the team on the field I don't see the group effort that was epitomized by Navy, we didn't show even 10 percent of that.

If we can't beat Duke or Air Force, whose experienced players allegedly were terrible players compared to CW's blue chippers...then I don't know what to think about the future of this program.
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 12:20 am | #

I am a student too karamazov
why? | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 12:26 am | #

I agree with you Karamazov. Nobody is saying CW is evil, but our opinion of his coaching persona is completely valid. And church or no church, have we not figured out yet that people are multi-dimensional, they are not good or bad, they are shades of grey. I can''t figure out why it bothers so many people that we question CW's attitude.

By the way, overall churchy-ness or public support for charities hardly precludes the possibility that the person is really an ass. Haven't we learned that in America yet? We see examples of that all the time, every day. Being allegedly godly doesn't mean you are a more moral person than your everyday atheist. Remember that deacon who turned out to be a serial killer a few years ago? Not meaning to imply that CW is a serial killer, degenerate or disingenuous about charity, or that he (like the rest of humanity) has done both good and bad things. So just hold your fire.

End rant.
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 12:28 am | #

Why?-
Btw, I agree with Lou ntL that your handle is impossible, but that is neither here nor there.

You say you ARE a student TOO? That would seem to imply that you believe I AM a student at this time?

While I do wish I could go back twenty-five years, sadly that is not an option in this life. Yes, I WAS a student, many years ago. But, no, I am not a student at ND at this time.

If you are a student at ND, I wish you the best. But you never had Emil Hoffman for Chemistry and I did, so there.
Karamazov | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 12:49 am | #

This was a very exciting game except for two plays (aside from the fumble and score): The fake field goal on 4th and fifteen, and the third down play that supposedly took us out of FG range. It wasn't too long at all after the TT failure-to-score-2pt. conversion that it hit me, how bad I felt for Brandon Walker's parents. And when I woke up Sunday morning and within a minute or two was reminded that we had lost the previous day, that realization was immediately followed by the sad feeling for his parents, again. Have to wonder what Charlie would have to say to them after his vote of no confidence in their son...
onehipdad | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 1:28 am | #

Quick question -
If charlie weis is NOT the man to return Notre Dame, which is how it looks, WHY do we keep him around next season?
To save recruits?
I promise you, the class we will be recuiting next season will not be in the top 20. So what if we lose some recruits this year if we fire him. If we fire him next year, many of those recruits will transfer anyway. Why not deal with the problem now?
Iresdisagree | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 1:32 am | #

1400 post's since the end of the Navy game.
Wow!
Impressive!
As a permanently banned member of blew and gelded, this is by far and away the best bang for your buck, or no buck, as is the case.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 2:35 am | #

It isnt Weis's job to develop players. That is the position coach's responsibility. How in the world could a coach develop 85 or so players? I believe that CW has learned some valuable lessons this year. I believe that if he doesnt change now he never will and so his stay will be a short one. Listen to past players who post here, one is Voice, we need changes with some of our position coaches. CW surrounded himself with coaches who had previous college head coaching experience but for some reason chooses not to listen, that is a mistake. Lou is a great motivator, but believe me he was a task master with his assistants. He used to tell them that if they cant explain it in ten words or less then the player wont get it, maybe Charlie needs to take that advice. You will know if Charlie "gets it" by what happens at the end of the season.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 5:14 am | #

Emil T. Hofman
Now that's a name that instills fear and trepidation in otherwise mighty men.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 7:34 am | #

Post #5 from Greg says it best. All of the venting by ND fans(?)to fire Charlie for this season or because of a decision not to kick a field goal serves no purpose. Furthermore, it would be a disaster for the Irish extending much further into the future than one year.

Where are the Irish supporters who are willing to support CW into next season?

All CHARLIE WEIS has done as he finishes his third season is to take the Irish to TWO BCS BOWLS AND LAND #5 AND #11 RECRUITING CLASSES. At the present time, he has the verbal commits to bring home the #1 CLASS IN 2008.

I know this season is difficult. I have attended three games, and it isn't fun watching our Irish lose.

To everyone who advocates for the dismissal of CW, WHO WOULD YOU PROPOSE THE IRISH HIRE AS THEIR NEW HEAD COACH?
Ted | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 7:53 am | #

While I reserve the right to be dumbfounded by this team's lack of passion and Charlie's lack of progress, I agree wholeheartedly with Ted. Firing Weis ain't gonna happen anytime soon, and if it did it could be catastrophic for the program. There are going to be a multitude of head coach openings across the country real soon, coinciding with, as I see it, a dearth of available quality coaches. Charlie is the coach and we need to accept that fact. There is no way that we won't improve after this season, and, hopefully Weis will seek high counsel while he tweaks the coaching staff and the way we train and motivate the players. We are all allowed to be bemused, befuddled, bewildered and any other "be word", but we have to let him have another year to correct things. The talent he is signing is legit. When a coaching change is necessitated, everything goes helter skelter. These players might completely fold like lawn chairs if that were to happen, and unless ND could attract Belichick or Tony Dungy, the Irish program could reside permanently where it rests now. That is in the neighborhood with Duke, the Academies, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and Stanford. Might as well form a Smart but Crummy conference. I am just being pragmatic. Fire Charlie chants aren't productive at this point in time because there really is not an alternative. If for no other reason, Notre Dame needs to prove to future head coaches that they will be afforded an opportunity to succeed.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 8:45 am | #

The highly rated recruiting classes don't mean squat if the talent isn't developed and doesn't show up on the field. I know the team is young, but c'mon, if the freshman and sophmores were as good as their recruiting rankings, they should be able to show some kind of spark (not even win games, but make a play now and then). So either the recruits are not, in fact, as good as they were supposed to be (the Lou Holtz ND recruits get puffed to sell magazines theory) or CW is not developing them, or the dreaded combo. My gut tells me ND can't get the best high school players in the land b/c of the admission issues, the need to actually attend classes and work, and the lack of SB's desirability. Does anyone really believe the best HS football players are also the smart ones who want to go to school and work hard? Runs counter to my now dated HS experience. But even so, we clearly get good quality players if not the best, which means the development is flawed. I pray for the best next year - at least my expectations won't be able to be disappointed
JimmyJazz | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 8:46 am | #

maybe cw should just go watch some hs games (pick your sport) and see firsthand how big a part motivation and enthusiasm play in said games. hs kids, and coaches mostly, understand how a single play can alter the scope of a game. and they feed off it, both positively and negatively.

then he needs to realize that his team is just hs kids who are a year or two older. not guys who just need to finish 9-7 to get into the playoffs and collect their incentive bonuses.

maybe he's looking for some players to step up and take that role (i think this was something bq did well), maybe someone from the coaching staff. but maybe the staff takes their cues from the head coach, and want to be seen as workman-like to stay out of his doghouse.

either way, in both of the last two games, i noticed both the usc and navy staffs fully engaged the entire game (at least til i left after the fumble on the 2nd play of the 2nd half vs. usc), while the nd sideline looked like a wake.
yz | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 9:07 am | #

Dozier: What's worse in the college football landscape, Michigan's loss to Appalachian State, or our loss to Navy? Just trying to put this in some kind of objective perspective (if there is such a thing).

As an App St alum and fan (and ND fan), I'll bite on this one. The Michigan loss to App St is worst even though I think App St is a better team overall than Navy. Why?

1. App St is FCS and Navy is FBS.
2. No one ever heard of App St except fans of FCS football.
3. Generally there is a lot of respect for Navy and some expectation that Navy wold beat ND.
4. App St were 31 pts underdogs, Navy only 3 pts (goes to show what the bookies know.)
5. The ND - Navy game was a great game between evenly matched teams. App St was obviously the faster, more fundamently sound team that slapped Michigan around. It wasn't a game until late in the 4th Q when Mike Hart single-handly made it a game.

As an ND fan, its sad to realize that this ND team would only be in 5th place in FCS Southern Conference. That is just wrong when you realize the talent level - even though inexperienced - at ND.
OldFan | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 9:23 am | #

Geez - I'd represent my school better if I had proofed my entry. That's 'worse' and 'would'.
OldFan | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 9:29 am | #

Several Comments:

1. Other fans don't hate ND because people want to fire their coach after one season. Every good football program in the country wants to fire their head coach after one season.
2. Lots of good coaches have gone through similar seasons. Holtz was 0-11 his first year at South Carolina just as an example.
3. Who give a turd if Weis is arrogant? So is Steve Spurrier and Jimmy Johnson. He is a football coach. Enough said.
4. Press conferences always lob easy questions to coaches for the reasons stated above. That is not new for Weis.

Everybody needs to accept this year is a bad year, a rebuilding year, and look forward to some evenly matched games for the rest of the year. Fact is, the Navy game was the best game of the season so far. How many 4th and longs did we convert? How many long runs did Aldridge and Allen produce. What about the kick returns by Allen and the punt return by Zibby? I am just glad to see some exciting games. Even if it is against Navy.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 9:44 am | #

Dozier: What's worse in the college football landscape, Michigan's loss to Appalachian State, or our loss to Navy? Just trying to put this in some kind of objective perspective (if there is such a thing).

Michigan's loss to App. State is worse, certainly from a historical perpective (although in retrospect, it probably wasn't quite the upset everyone made it out to be), but that loss to App. State was clearly an aberration. Though Michigan lost to Oregon (clearly a better team), it has won each of its games since then, including against ND.

ND's loss to Navy in and of itself is bad enough, but it becomes worse when you consider that its clearly representative of ND's season. Terribly unsound fundamentally, poorly coached and showing little sign of improvement, as embodied by the loss to Navy. And the end of the 43-game winning streak certainly adds historical significance to the loss as well.

So I guess I'm not sure where I come out on the question. As an isolated loss, Michigan's was definitely worse, but in the overall scheme of things, ND's loss to Navy is symptomatic of far larger problems, and is worse in that sense.

Geez...way to hedge.
Anon | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 9:44 am | #

Who is responsible for personnel decisions? Isn't it the position coaches? For example, who determines that Travis Thomas runs the ball for the 2 pt conversion instead of, say, Robert Hughes? Or, if on a play you have a WR, RB, and TE all get banged up and come off the field (without an injury timeout, though), who determines the players that replace them? Is it an automatic depthchart thing? I can't believe that CW has the time to tell West that he needs to replace Grimes, Armando that he needs to relieve Aldridge, and Yeatman that he needs to replace Carlson... he has too much to worry about just by calling in the next play before getting a delay of game penalty. So, is this two seperate issues (TT in on goal line vs. mid-drive substitutions)? Anyone know how this works?
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 10:21 am | #

I’m believer in saying things the way they are and admitting the obvious. After all Weis’ talk of tradition and this suggestion that ‘he gets it’, I was disappointed in his attempts to minimize the importance of this lost with regards to history. Tradition and history are a boon but also a responsibility. It’s not there just for the good times. Charlie Weis is the coach that lost to Navy and that’s set in stone. This ND team is teetering on the bad side of history. I’d like to think that would present serious motivation and not be something to protect the team from.
imafreak | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 10:28 am | #

What would you expect a coach to say after losing a 44 year streak? Of course he is going to say the streak doesn't matter. Better he should say "Yes, I am the worst coach in ND's last forty years because I lost to Navy." Coaches never like to bring up winning streaks and and stuff like that in the locker room cause it means nothing. You are only as good as your last game. All the statistics about ND winning X number of games at home over so-and-so mean nothing to the current team. A streak is a streak. I remember Lou losing for the first time to Northwestern and everybody said the same thing. Sometimes you lose games. It happens. Go back and watch the game. The Irish didn't play unusually bad. The offense actually looked pretty solid except for the pathetic sacks of Sharpley. They picked up several first downs on fourth down and had no real trouble moving the ball down the field. Granted it was against Navy, but it is still a significant improvement over the first eight games. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think we punted the whole game. (maybe once?)
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 10:37 am | #

I'd give a pretty penny to hear what BQ, Shark, DW or Mo Sto think about this season.

Of course I don't expect them to break "the code" and start talking about how bad the alma mater is playing right now, but it would be really fascinating to hear their perspectives with a bit of hindsight.

Did they have any inkling that this season was going to go REALLY BAD? Did CW instill any football fundamentals in the team, or did he just take the fundamentals taught by TY and turn those guys into intelligent players?

I certainly don't expect to hear talk of this time for a long time, at least until BQ's career is done - but Brady, if you're reading this I'd love an email. I PROMISE, it will between me and you ;)
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 10:39 am | #

"All CHARLIE WEIS has done as he finishes his third season is to take the Irish to TWO BCS BOWLS AND LAND #5 AND #11 RECRUITING CLASSES. At the present time, he has the verbal commits to bring home the #1 CLASS IN 2008."

Dude, those two BCS bowls were great and everything, but there is a case that ND didn't belong there. We certainly got blown out in both and we didn't really beat ANYBODY in the seasons leading up to them. It was a huge mistake to give CW a contract extension worth so much money when his career highlight is ALMOST beating USC.

All the great recruiting means nothing. Navy and the other service academies have higher academic standards than ND and their recruits have to ENLIST, putting them at a huge disadvantage. Weis should be able to beat them with any D1's recruits and he couldn't even do that.
Anono | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 11:28 am | #

And he's very arrogant. Decided schematic advantage? Telling boosters he would never lose to MSU again?
Anono | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 11:29 am | #

This season is crazy and you cannot sugar coat it, it is awful and will likely go down as the worst season in history. Just for kicks look at Ty's last year or Faust's last year and compare to this one in any way you want to, this is far worse. I was not a fan of Ty getting fired in year 3 but how do you justify not treating Charlie with the same measuring stick. Outside of 7 turnovers at UCLA, and playing Navy, we are not only losing we are not even competitive.

If this is re-building, what are we building? I think this is more de-struction, than re-building. What happened to year one, where CW came in and said he had to get these guys believing they could win?? these guys are the most demoralized team in ND history?

Not my call on keeping or firing Charlie. Nor on signing him to a huge deal because he almost beat USC once. However, my concern is this years recruits and next years. If we keep CW, his job is on the line for sure next year. If we start losing again, and he is gone, then we get zero recruits next year (just look at Nebraska).. Personally, I don't see any evidence that we are building nor room for optimism. Good recruits don't make a team, just ask Gerry Faust. I think we are better off by bringing in a proven college coach that can coach and will keep this year's recruits and really start to build something. Spurrier should be available -- he's got to realize he'll never win a championship at SC.

Lou, Ara, Dan Devine, all won a national championship in their 3rd season -- wow are we a long way from that in year 3 of the CW era
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 11:52 am | #

Charlie Weis, lost the game because of his refusal to trust the running game. For all of those that wonder if all of the sudden he forgot to coach, No. Last year we got lucky this year we are paying the price for not only running the ball and also not developing back ups. As for Air force, if we don't run the ball don't expect anything spectacular next year. Go irish
Jean | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 11:57 am | #

You can count me in on the relatively few people who believe that Weis should NOT be fired after this season. First of all, you do not (in my opinion) ever fire a coach after ONE bad season. I don't care how bad a season it is; in my way of thinking, you just don't do it, especially after two consecutive highly successful seasons.

Fire Weis, and we also lose the #1 recruiting class. Say that doesn't matter all you want, but if we lose all those players (and get a crappy, Willingham-esque class), we'll be looking at another situation like this year in about 3 or 4 years. What are we going to do, fire the new coach then too? Doesn't really make sense to me.

I also agree with Matt's sentiments as well. You can't just hire a new head coach every three years and expect to grow a good program. Very little good comes out of being too reactionary.

Probably the biggest reason I think everyone should stop whining about needing a new head coach is that it is simply not going to happen. Does anyone honestly think ND is going to fire Weis this year? I don't think there's really any way.

By all means, fire Latina and Mendoza and bring in some guys who can actually develop players (and train some o-linemen to push around guys 40 lbs. heavier). And certainly, let Weis know in uncertain terms that next year anything less than an 8-4 season and a bowl win is unsatisfactory (that's my benchmark, I don't know what everyone else's is). Then fire him if he doesn't live up, I don't care. But I don't think firing Weis this year will help this program any.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 12:58 pm | #

That should read "40 lbs. LIGHTER." Sorry.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 1:00 pm | #

Looking mathematically at the decision to NOT go for the field goal on 4th down:

Say if you go for it on 4th down (4th and long - 7'ish yards?) you have a 50 % chance to get a 1st down.

Also assume you have a 90% chance to make the filed goal IF you get the 1st down.

So going for it on 4th, you have a 45% chance to get FG (.45 = .9*.5)

So, if you accept the #'s above, then to justify kicking the 42 yard field goal, you must have a > 45% chance of making the field goal.....

Looking at those #'s, NOT kicking the FG doesn't seem like it was an OUTRAGEOUSLY bad decision.....

The part I don't buy is that if ND got close to the 20 yard line, kicking the FG was OK, but at the 24.5 yardline is not....... I have a hard time believing those 4 yards make that much of an impact. For it to mathematically make sense, Walker's chance of making the FG would have to decrease by over 50% over those 4 yards and I don't buy that......

Despite the #'s, I think we should have attempted the FG.....

Hopefully we are at rock bottom...
jimmy 2 times | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 1:17 pm | #

If the answer is firing Charlie Weis, the question is, how do you finish the job of killing the program that was begun by Monk and Davingham?
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 4:27 pm | #

"Say if you go for it on 4th down (4th and long - 7'ish yards?) you have a 50 % chance to get a 1st down."

I don't think that number is even close to 50 percent. Even against Navy's defense.
Anono | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 4:28 pm | #

Anono,

Admittedly these %'s are estimates, but according to the box score, ND had 9 of 19 3rd down conversions and 6 of 8 4th down conversions in the Navy game. So I wouldn't think 50 % is too far off.....

If anyone has better estimates, I am listening.
jimmy 2 times | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 4:37 pm | #

jimmy 2 times

I have to agree with Anono,

We had 3 downs and only advanced the ball 3 yards. Navy knew we had to pass so did not have to cover the run. We only averaged 3-4 yards a play during the game. I would say 25% chance of making the first down at best. I would say a 75 % chance of making the FG from where we were. Plus, if we miss the FG, we would still go to OT. I can live with that. I cannot live with the decision CW made.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.06.07 - 4:49 pm | #

a 75% chance of making the field goal from 41, or a 0.75% chance?
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.07.07 - 5:16 am | #

Not to rub salt in any wounds, & I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but, coming off a bye week with an extra week of preparation for all the nuances of an option attack, shouldn't the defensive effort have been a bit more solid? What an all-around coaching breakdown!!!!
Bob | Email | Homepage | 11.07.07 - 9:53 am | #

Does anyone else think that it may be time for Charlie to put down play card, take off the headset and let someone else call the plays?

Coach Hayward has been learning for three years now, let him take over and see what we get. How is he ever going to really learn and become a true coordinator if he never calls a game? I say that we have to give more responsibility to get these guys more motivated. This seems to be a microcosm of what is happening with the rest of the team.

How is Charlie ever going to become a well rounded head coach if he is stuck mostly wearing the coordinator hat? Granted it would still have been his call not to kick the field goal but maybe he would have chose differently if he was seeing the game as a head coach and not stuck with his nose on his offensive coordinators play card.

Just a suggestion,

Go Irish!
Leo T | Email | Homepage | 11.07.07 - 12:21 pm | #

There is something radically wrong with this team, from the get-go. This team was never prepared to start the season. It has no fire, no passion, no inspiration. We can't seem to block, to run routes properly, to tackle, to play special teams effectively. We're now into our 10th game and still don't know who the quarterback is. The guys have no one to rally around. They should all be playing like Trevor Laws, but they just seem to be sitting back and waiting for something to happen. This has been true since September 1. It's got to be a lack of preparation, and that's the responsibility of the coaching staff. CW constantly accepts the blame, and that makes him a better man than the his 2 predecessors. He takes the blame well, but there's never any progress! Here we are in week #10 and still looking for answers? Notre Dame should've gone 5-7 or maybe 4-8 with their eyes closed! These kids are Notre Dame recruits, not 1-AA castoffs! OK, done now.
jazzarena | Email | Homepage | 11.07.07 - 1:27 pm | #