It's still too painful for me to read the What if: USC game post. But this one was excellent, and I couldn't agree more...
KC | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:22 pm | #

Meyer may or may not have been successful at ND but we sure would have held our collective noses a lot (then again, you could argue that Meyer would do things differently at ND). Nevertheless, let's compare Meyer's tenure at Florida so far to Weis's at ND:

1) Regular season - Meyer is 21-4 and +310 in two regular seasons; Weis is 19-4 and +280 in two regular seasons.

2) Bowl record - Meyer is 2-0 with a win over a then 7-4 Iowa team and a terrific blow-out victory over then undefeated Ohio St.; Weis is 0-2 with a 14 point loss to 9-2 OSU; and a 27 point blow-out to 10-2 LSU.

3) Meyer took over a team that was 15-8 and +285 during the two prior regular seasons; Weis took over a team that was 11-12 and -55 during the two prior regular seasons. Meyer, therefore, took a team that had won 65% of its games and won 84% of his games the next two seasons. By contrast, Weis took a team that had won 48% of its games and won 83% of his games.

4) The trump card for Meyer is the national championship.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:33 pm | #

Rally sons of Notre Dame sing Her glory and sound Her fame. Raise Her gold and blue and sing with voices true. Rah Rah for Notre Dame.

Urban sucks.
Domer Steve | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:33 pm | #

Urban might have used his "Pointing Finger of Power" to vaporize Reggie Bush before the "Bush Push" ever happened.

I don't think Meyer is much more unethical than other coaches. The guy isn't Barry Switzer! But he hasn't stayed longer than 2 years, so I guess we'll see the long term effects eventually.

Despite all of the drama, I'm glad Charlie is our coach. He's the right guy for the program.
Sean Fitzgerald | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:43 pm | #

Amen to Sean.
captain jack | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:45 pm | #

I remember being disappointed when Urban chose Florida, but at that point I started hoping we'd get Charlie and we got him. Charlie has been a stand-up guy. Unlike Urban, he gladly accepted the challenge and so far I'm more than satisfied with the results.
I'm interested (but highly doubtful) to see if anyone out there really thinks ND might be better off with Urban.
Gabe | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:48 pm | #

Great post.


Not only do I believe that perhaps ND would not take the same path to winning under Urban, but I think we would have lost out on three of my favorite moments in ND history since I personally have been watching.

1) The Play. Charlie promising the first play of a game to a kid dying of cancer honestly was one of the greatest things I've ever seen in sport. He never had to do it. He certainly didn't have to do it backed up on our own goaline in a hostile stadium against our former coach. It could have been disastrous. But a Charlie Weis led ND football team did it anyway, and it had nothing to do with sport. How Rockne-esque. How Notre Dame.

2) Charlie leading our boys over to sing Navy's alma mater after a win. Again, this didn't seem to me to have anything to do with sport. It was about teaching our kids respect. It's important to remember that our nation was in a war at the time, and I'm sure it meant a helluva lot to those service men.

3) Charlie taking his son over to the USC locker room after the Bush Push to congratulate their team after ND's heart-braking loss. No way in hell would I have been able to do that.



I hear a lot of people talk about Weis being pompous, brash, etc. But these were class acts all around. Its things like this that endear Notre Dame so much more to me, and its what makes it so special to everyone. Even if Urban Meyer didn't take a rough path to get victories (stealing recruits, lying about a variety of subjects, bad discipline, etc.), there is no possible way he could have elevated our program in the manner Weis has, at the very least in this regard. Weis is teaching lessons right now that will stick with future former-ND footballs players for a lifetime, which is a significant longterm impact on our program.





Besides, honestly, who takes advice from Bob Davie? Seriously?
Brad | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 1:51 pm | #

KC,

I'm with you. I enjoyed this article, but I couldn't get past the first sentence of the USC article without cringing.
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 2:17 pm | #

Pete this post is hilarious.

"Infinitely vague wisdom" = perfect description of Willingham's stoic nature.

"Blindfolded and wearing oven mitts"...hilarious.

Did you live in Dillon? Both your reference to the 3rd floor and to the fight song playing loudly and often the afternoon Willingham was fired indicate so. You weren't Dillon RA "Pirate" Pete, right?
Tommy O | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 2:32 pm | #

Maybe Urban could have complained and played politics in the media for two weeks after the Bush Push to get it nullified and ND the win, and then complained that they should be in the NC. Or maybe he would just continue to be a wuss.
Bhors | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 2:43 pm | #

BGS,
These posts are great. Keep 'em coming.

Another Urban problem we may have had-would he be a flight risk? He had a tendency to leave programs after a few years (BGSU, Utah) to move onto bigger things. I consider ND to be the pinnacle of coaching football, something it seems I share with Charlie Weis, but might this up-and-coming ladder climber been tempted to taste the forbidden fruit of the NFL?
Mark | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 2:52 pm | #

Tommy O,

I am in fact a proud former Dillonite. Second generation, in fact.

And while I'm not "Pirate" Pete Montenero, he was my RA my sophomore year.






Alumni sucks.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 2:53 pm | #

I met Urban "The Chinless Wonder" when he was sitting at the knee of his guru, Mr. Bob Davie. And from my five minute chat with him I knew immediately that he was a smug, smarmy, self righteous, humorless little douche and I thanked God when he did not ascend to coach the Irish.
I just don't like the guy.

I have met Charlie, too. I liked him immediately because he had a realness about him. Somewhat cocky, brash and outspoken, I believed then (April '05) that young players would respond to him in a very positive way. We got the right guy.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 2:54 pm | #

The funny thing is, Voice, per a friend of mine who played for Davie, and whose position coach was Urban at the time...Urban was the only coach on that staff that knew what the hell he was doing, and all the players knew it.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 2:57 pm | #

Urban won with Zook's men. Charlie will win with his own.
mikes1160 | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 2:58 pm | #

My biggest question: what shape would we be making with our hands during the 1812 overture?
Catz | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 3:02 pm | #

What is interesting about Urban Meyer is that the head coaches he worked for were such a mixed bag as far as success: Earle Bruce, Jim Heacock (good defensive coordinator but failed head coach), Sonny Lubick, Lou Holtz, and, of course, Bob Davie. He never rose above the level of wide receivers coach.

Prio to last year, I thought Meyer was Bob Davie with a fancier offense; he certainly proved me wrong. At ND, Davie won 77% of his games at home (comparable to Holtz) but only 38% of his games on the road (not comparable to Holtz). In his first year at Florida, Meyer won every home game but only beat Kentucky in a true road game. Last year, Meyer beat Tennessee, Vanderbilt, and FSU on the road. In other words, he blew my theory out of the water.

It will be fascinating to see how he does when his tenure exceeds two years. He may get even better. It will be interesting.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 3:38 pm | #

I've thrown up in those bushes! Granted, I was a junior in high school visiting my brother at ND... It was well before I threw up in the halls of Alumni!
ABG | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 3:53 pm | #

When Willingham was fired my choices for Coach were:
1. Tom Clements

2. Charlie Weis

I would have been a sick man if Urban had been hired. He has always reminded me a davie...same type and he just was not fit to coach at Notre Dame.
At this point I can't think of anyone more suited for the position than CW.
He has invigorated the program, the alum and the entire fan base. Ever move he makes, ever interview solidifies the fact that he "Gets It"
H Vaughn | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 3:58 pm | #

My biggest question: what shape would we be making with our hands during the 1812 overture?

A "U", of course. Hold your hands up stick your thumbs out at a 90 degree angle to your fingers, and touch your thumbs together.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 4:03 pm | #

Mark May prediction for ND 07
1-7 or 2-6 to start the year.
Rob | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 4:07 pm | #

No offense guys, but what happens if Weis has a really tough year? Notre Dame has a BRUTAL schedule coming up: away to Penn State, UCLA and Michigan, home games against GT, Mich State, USC and BC. None of those games are toss ups.

No question Domers weren't happy with the results Ty gave in his latter two seasons of coaching. But this is the third year under Weis, with moreorless his players and his staff. Shouldn't he be under the same kind of pressure Ty was to deliver?
Cliff | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 4:44 pm | #

My prediction for Mark May 2007

He'll say anything to anger Notre Dame fans, thereby ensuring he continues to receive a paycheck from ESPN. Just because he doesn't have a nose that honks doesn't mean that he's not a clown.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 4:52 pm | #

No Cliff b/c Ty, in addition to being a mediocre at best coach was horrible at recruiting. Our senior and junior classes are abominably thin, especially the senior class, so you can't just say "more or less his players" b/c that only applies for the freshman and sophmores. I think we'll be ok, probably 7-5 or maybe 8-4 but the real indicator will be next year when Junior/Soph/Fresh will all be Weis recruits.
bgr | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 4:54 pm | #

Good one Cliff. Man, that's funny. I'm always amused when Ty supporters start pointing to this coming year in glee, hoping to be able to say that somehow some way Weiss is no better than Ty was, even though anyone with an ounce of objectivity can see how different the impact Weis and Ty have had on the DIRECTION of the program is.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:00 pm | #

You see, I have to disagree with that, and big time as well. You can't blame whatever problems the Irish may have (and it unfortunately looks like we may have some big problems) this upcoming season on a guy who hasn't been at the campus for three years. It doesn't matter which players Urban Meyer won the National Title with, he WON, plain and simple.

And as for the senior class being thin...what do you expect??? Ty was fired! He was let go early from his contract! It probably made a huge impact in terms of recruits either singing elsewhere or withdrawing from the university.
Cliff | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:01 pm | #

Cliff, the impact Ty would have had on recruiting would be evident in the Junior year, not the senior year. So your argument breaks down since we have EIGHT, count them EIGHT, true seniors. In addition, go look at the recruiting numbers for the junior year and you'll realize that most of those were brought in by Weis even though he got a late start. I think Ty was golfing or something.
bgr | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:03 pm | #

Charlie Weis will win with this team. He took a mediocre team and had us fans envisioning a National Championship last year. Will we win the National Championship? Probably not. However if CW can take a team that was two games under five hundred and turn that around into 9-3, 10-3 he will win a championship within the next three years. If he is unable to do that, maybe we should have gotten Urbie. Okay maybe not.
Jerry | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:05 pm | #

The junior recruits by Weis I don't know about, but I'll take your word for it. But the eight true seniors...I just can't help but think the firing had a role in reducing that number. Again, I agree that Ty underachieved, but the way that entire situation was handled in December was brutal.
Cliff | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:06 pm | #

Cliff, no doubt it was fiasco and you're right that that may have had an effect, but another part is that a lot of players transferred or fell by the wayside from being disillusioned with the program. Ty did underachieve, but also could not produce consistency, was lackluster at recruiting, and was unable to instill any confidence or vision in the team. It should not surprise anyone that there are rumblings in Huskie nation about being disappointed with Ty.
bgr | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:15 pm | #

Cliff,

Weis is and always will be under a tremendous amount of pressure to deliver. So was Ty, so was Davie, so was Holtz, etc. It comes with the job and is why Weis is so well-paid.

To be honest, none of us have any idea what to expect this year. We know that there are very few seniors; we know that there is not that much experience coming back, particularly at certain positions. What we don't know, however, is more important to the outcome of the season. For example, we don't know if our new players will be better than our old players after they get some playing time; we don't know if our opponents will be as good as they are perceived to be; we don't know if Corwin Brown will be as big of an upgrade for the defense as Weis was for the offense two years ago. This season could be much better than many think but nevertheless everyone will be able to judge by what they see and not by what the Mark Mays of the world tell them.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:20 pm | #

As I have stated at other times we were overdue for an Alumnus as head coach.

Our previous 2 head coaches projected professionalism ,but not real emotional engagement with our University .

Notre Dame has been fortunate to have non- Alumni at the helm who were engaged {Ara and Lou come to mind} but I really think we as a fan base were really getting sapped emotionally in recent years.

That would have been the "death" of ND football.

We were long overdue for a grad, from that standpoint, we were lucky.

It is interesting that our 2 highest winning percentage coaches were Domers{Rockne and Leahy} as well as our 2 lowest . { Devore and Kuharich}.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:53 pm | #

All good points, PJC. In 2005, Mark May and Lee Corso were predicting horrendous starts for the Irish, but we responded with a huge opening win against Pitt, a thriller at Michigan and then the classic against USC (a game I was at and won't forget for a long, long time). That said, I think 2007 is going to be one of the most challenging years in Weis' pro/collegiate career: arguably football's toughest schedule combined with a slew of new faces.
Cliff | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:55 pm | #

P.S. Dana Payne, George O'Leary sucked and you know it. Worst week ever. ;)
Cliff | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 5:57 pm | #

Do we really have to do this again?
Fitzwater | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 6:00 pm | #

I'm surprised that no one has brought this up yet. I think given the recent state of the ND and Florida programs in this decade, Charlie is out-recruiting Urban handily.

Charlie started with a sub-par program in the Midwest, with extremely tight academic requirements, a derth of talent and a plethora of bad press and, somehow, has managed to put together a very solid 2007 class and what is shaping up to be the premier 2008 class.

Urban started with a very solid program with a lot of talent located in sunny Florida. No doubt he has done a great job in pulling out a national championship with predominantly Zooker's talent (sans Tebow) and, yet, appears to be having his tail handed to him by Charlie and Corwin in the 2008 recruiting race. If he can't land the best recruits in the nation as the returning national champion from Florida, how could he ever match the recruiting accomplishments of Charlie and Co. in lovely South Bend, Indiana? I think we got the right guy.
Don E. Brook | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 6:01 pm | #

I think hiring of Urban would have been a wash record-wise. The defense would have been much better. The offense would have been a spread without the fearsome passing attack. BQ would not have developed into one of the premier college QBs. He would be poaching Trattou from Florida.

___________________

PJC,

Regular season - Meyer is 21-4 and +310 in two regular seasons; Weis is 19-4 and +280 in two regular seasons.

What are these numbers - +310 and +280?
GB | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 6:30 pm | #

GB. I believe they are net points scored (i.e., ND put up 280 more points than were scored against them).
Don E. Brook | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 6:36 pm | #

The key this season is how fast Weis
can get a QB up and productive in the
first couple of games.
john | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 6:59 pm | #

I cannot thank the Lord enough that Urban decided Florida was better. Our program is better for it - and will be much farther into the future as well.
Steve Belles | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 7:25 pm | #

Cliff:

Forgot about George ....probably was the nadir of the program

Any articles on whether GTECH knew about his resume enhancement when he was employed there?
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 7:50 pm | #

By chance and association, I was good friends with someone who had inside information on a daily basis as the Meyer negotiations were going on. According to this person (who knew someone in Utah on the ND jet; this I verified), Meyer had a Florida offer and went back to ND to counter their previous offer with: if I (Meyer) can bring in Ju-Cos, I'll take the job at ND. ND had already made several concesssions (including early entrance, as we saw with Charlie) but drew the line at Ju-Cos. Urban walked. I feel 95% comfortable with the truth of this information from my good friend.
Insider | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 10:10 pm | #

In 2005, ND played the then #23, #3, #22, and #1 teams to start the season. ND finished 3-1 and came within a deflected pass from finishing 4-0 in those games. 3 of the 4 games were on the road.

At the time, Quinn was coming off a year in which he completed 54% of his passes and had 17 touchdowns to 10 interceptions. The offense averaged something like 24 points per game in 2004. Weis coaxed that same offense into 36 points per game in just one year. Imagine if we see even a similar improvement from Corwin Brown's defense?

ND has a better coaching staff than all but one of the teams in the first 8 games this year. ND has as much or more raw talent than all but two teams in the first. I've never understood the over-emphasis on experience. For example, look at UCLA. Is it helpful that they bring back 20 starters? Probably. Those 20 starters, however, lost 6 games last year including a blowout to a terrible and unmotivated FSU team in the bowl.

ND was a good but flawed team the last two years. Despite their flaws, they still made two straight BCS bowls (hell, in 2005 ND was 6 points away from finishing the regular season undefeated).

This year, I think ND will turn out to be a good but flawed team. So far, Weis takes this type of a team to a BCS bowl. My optimistic soul thinks he can do it again.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 07.25.07 - 10:13 pm | #

Growing up in New England, I was long a fan of Charlie Weis. I didn't find out that he was an ND alum until about a year before Willingham was fired, when a story about him ran in the alumni magazine. All of the sudden, it clicked to me: Weis should coach at ND. And I told everyone I knew that it would be perfect, except that ND would never fire Willingham after only 3 years, and Weis would have an NFL head coaching job the time Ty was finally fired. And then Ty was gone, and I remember going into my English class in O'Shag, and talking with a bunch of guys, and telling them that we should hire Charlie. And they laughed. They all wanted Urban. The day that we win the national championship, I'm going to send them all facebook messages.
Colleen | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 12:28 am | #

RE: What shape would we make with our hands during the 1812 overture for Urban Meyer?



1)Extend arm.
2)Clench fist.
3)Hold up fist high.
4)Turn back of fist to field.
5)Extend middle finger.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 8:28 am | #

If Urban had chosen ND then Jim Tressel might still have his pants and the yapping of the Buckeye dogs might still be echoing. Good choice Urban.
imafreak | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 10:18 am | #

One thing to note is the what-ifs Urban may play in his head from time to time. He won the SEC and a National Championship. HUge, right? Met all of his goals. But who gets the most press? Charlie. Dozens of coaches have won championships in college football history, but its the Notre Dame coaches who always stand out. If he just wanted to win games, he succeeded in his goal. If he wants to be a legend, nothing he does at UF will do it. Spurrier had the personality to do it, Urban does not. Notre Dame amplifies personality, and makes great legendary. I wonder if the press Charlie gets irks him somewhat?
Pete | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 11:45 am | #

Domer Steve, Sean Fitzgerald, Brad, and Voice in the Wilderness said it best. Great post with many fine responses, but these four are outstanding.

Charlie is the right man at the right time. We will see it happen under him.
Ted | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 12:13 pm | #

Our drab, smarmy little Davie-esque douchebag is keeping his head above water nicely, thank you.
Orson Swindle | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 4:39 pm | #

The jury is still out on whether Meyer will have an effective offensive with the spread in the SEC? His defense won it for him last year plus a lot of calls and breaks that one needs to win a NC... It will be interesting to see if Tebow will be anything but a single wing tailback...

While on the subject of quarterbacks if Meyer was at ND you could bet no Claussen, Crist, Frazer, and perhaps Jones.
PZ | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 8:03 pm | #

Orson,

Of course he is. I admit that much of my criticism of Meyer stems from jilted lover syndrome. I can nit-pick Meyer's record all day but the fact of the matter remains that he has an absurdly good record as a college football head coach and he doles out punishment as effectively as Promises does rehab. What is especially interesting about Meyer is that he'll never be as popular, even amongst Florida fans, as the visor-wearing mastermind who is getting all those hopes up in South Carolina after two decidedly average seasons. We'll see you in the 2011 Citrus Bowl double-header as we both collectively destroy directional Florida schools in a single, easily-forgotten October afternoon. Barnstorming indeed.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 07.26.07 - 9:30 pm | #

I'm guessing Pete wound up regretting this one.
CliffX | Email | Homepage | 09.17.07 - 8:42 am | #