Well said.
Houser | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:11 am | #

Wow, this post is exactly why I will never understand ND fans.

For example, Lloyd Carr is one of the most successful coaches over the past 10 years - that includes a MNC. Yet, two games into this season (admittedly disasterous games), almost every fan was calling for his head. On the other hand, Weis is in his third year, has only beaten one or two teams that ended up ranked in the top 25, and you all are rallying around him like he has won 10 MNC's back to back for ND and this is his one down year.

Another example - John Navarre broke almost every record for a quarterback at Michigan (most of those have now been broken by Henne), but we (myself included) hated him, said he couldn't win the big games or a bowl game (he eventually did both) and pined for a new QB. Quinn had very similar numbers, a worse record in the big games, and ND fans, to a person, will say he is one of the greatest QB's in the school's history and should be putting up Manning-esque numbers as soon as he gets a shot.

Really, this message isn't meant as a knock on ND, or as an attempt to start a flame war on the comments section. Just an observation.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:17 am | #

Very nicely done. Corwin Brown, though, isn't really "new to the recruiting game", at least from what I understood. He played a pretty big role in recruiting at UVA, and was supposedly a big part of the reason why they had so much success in 2002 and 2003. (The UND.com bio says that he "was a valuable member of the Groh's coaching staff that tried to attract some of the top high school talent to Charlottesville.")

But that's just a minor point. As I said, very nicely done.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:18 am | #

I really think we need to start putting just a little blame on the assistant coaches. Let's be honest, Charlie can't do everything by himself. These assistants need to be held responsible for this abyssmal season.
true2nd | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:18 am | #

It is amazing to have 2000 words about Charlie Weis, his failures, and his prospects for future success without mentioning his trademark arrogance.

The opening quote is a classic example. Get your shots in, because we will be great.

I know that many view arrogance as a positive quality. There is no question that it can motivate positive results. But there should be at least a concern that it was CW's arrogance that led to some of his serious errors, and that it makes him slow to correct mistakes.

I don't know the man, and I could be very wrong. But I strongly suspect that it his arrogance will be his undoing.
Eric Wilson | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:21 am | #

Anon,

All that the post does is counsel patience. Why is that so incomprehensible?
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:22 am | #

Moreover: with the exception of the '04 game against Michigan and POSSIBLY the SC game that year, ND's losses in the "big games" certainly weren't Quinn's fault. The defense was a sieve both of the last two years.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:26 am | #

Great piece, Pete. Weis' recruiting this past year has been nothing short of spectacular. If you're an opposing team and you're not envious of the talent coming in, well, you're a filthy liar.

I follow ND football pretty closely, as my wife is an alum. When they're not playing Michigan, I root for the Irish. But, while Weis is certainly not the worst coach in the Universe, he is not a particularly good head football coach at this point in his career.

I was at the USC disaster and his play calling was inexpicable. That was a game Notre Dame easily could have been in had Weis forgone his love of passing on 3rd and 1, and ran the ball. It's as though he's adverse to the ground game when he need short yardage and I can't explain that. There is a total lack of fundamentals among his highly touted recruits. Penalties, blown assignments, poor decisions are common place when the team can least afford them. Those are problems that reflect on the type of coaching players are receiving.

One other thing to point out is Wilingham, while not an outstanding coach, wasn't exactly chopped liver. In 7 years at Stanford he captured a conference title and finished with a winning record four times. Again, at Stanford. You're right, his recruiting at both schools wasn't anything special, but it's not like he was a poster child for medicrity at a power school. He was making things happen at a school where they shouldn't.

I think you're right, only time will tell whether Weis' recruiting is a window into a happy future. But at this point while the talent is improving, I've seen nothing to indicate the coaching is.

I may be a Michigan fan first, but I do taking a positive rooting interest in Notre Dame. Take it for what it's worth. Very throught provoking piece.
Maize n Brew Dave | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:31 am | #

ND is not/should not be a grooming grounds for a Head Coach. Traditionally it has been the final stop in a Head Coaching Career. As we all learn more from failure than success, the ND Head Football Coach should arrive having done his head coaching undergrad work elsewhere. As you point out Ara mentioned his 0-9 season at Northwestern as invaluble experience for when he arrived at ND. I'm not blaming Charley for being hired or getting a lot of money, or for 'learning' on the job but the school owes its alumni, fans & supporters an experienced College Head Football Coach that has developed on someone else's dime. They made that mistake with Mr Faust, Mr. Davie & now............what are we taught about those that do not learn from the past??? Patience? CFB is about now, always. Wait until next year? no thanks.
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:31 am | #

Dave,

Thanks for the comments. I think Weis's playcalling this year is very much a chicken/egg situation. Do we pass on 3rd and 1 because we can't get it on the ground? (We can't, by the way.) Or, can we never run it in short yardage because Weis hasn't committed to developing a run game?

As for the penalties, blown assignments, and general badness at football, it's also an inexperience thing. Not that our seniors haven't been prone to that boneheadedness themselves this year. But the fact that the team was relatively mistake-free the last two years suggests it may be youth more than coaching.

And as for Willingham, while he did impress at Stanford, like you said, it's not too hard to do that. When we saw a career .500 coach start approaching .500 at Notre Dame with no real incoming talent to save the day, I think we saw the writing on the while. Bit more to be positive about with Weis.

But again, thanks for the comments, it's nice to have a healthy debate with a Wolverine. I agree that Weis isn't a particularly great head coach this year, but the question remains if he can make himself into one.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:38 am | #

The author of the Slate piece, Michigan-grad Chait, is a confirmed ND-hater. See this piece in The New Republic. http://64.233.167.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=4& gl=us
He's also a bit too clever. Here he is on why the ND "mythology" is overhyped, from the earlier article:
"There is no other team in any sport--except perhaps the New York Yankees--that is so uniquely prominent that it is synonymous with the sport itself. The prominence of the Yankees makes sense; the team has won more games and more pennants than any other in baseball. But Notre Dame does not have the most wins nor the highest winning percentage of any college football program. So why does Notre Dame football hold such a prominent place in our culture? The answer lies in the power of myth."
Well maybe. OR maybe there IS some substance to the ND "myth." Chait neglects to mention that ND has the second highest number of wins, the second highest winning percentage (by hundredths of a point), the most national championships, the most Heisman winners, etc., etc. -- all facts of which he is certainly aware (especially since in the first two categories ND is right behind Michigan), but of which his credulous non-football fan readers may not be. Again, today's Slate piece is exquisitely timed, at the conclusion of the killer part of our schedule. Chait is surely aware that we may actually be favored to win a few of our next games, a fact he does not bothering mentioning.
All's fair in love and writing, I suppose, and this piece, like the earlier one, would make good partisan reading on a U of M football blog. But the problem is that Chait presents it as mainstream journalism, while omitting facts -- of which he is no doubt aware -- that might actually put the story in context and might actually interest his readers.
ND81 | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:41 am | #

Anon - your comparison isn't quite apples to apples with Carr versus Weis. Of course fans would call for Carr's head after 10 years. Fans were griping about Holtz after 10 years too. When a coach establishes a level of success, in the case of Carr and Holtz a MNC, and fails to meet that later on in his career, many fans seek change, if only for the sake of change. If Charlie were having this year at Year 5 or 6 or later, you can be assured that many, many more fans would be calling for a change.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:42 am | #

I was going to say exactly the same thing about throwing the ball in third-down situations. The number of ND drives that have come to an end when the team couldn't run the ball across the damned LOS (two of the first four possessions against BC, at least twice against both Purdue and MSU, and so on) on third-and-shot is simply staggering. It's hard to blame the guy for trying something different.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:43 am | #

Heck, not many -- ALL.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:43 am | #

Do anyone think that our expectations have been systematically lowered from the vortex that has been this season?
That, I for one believe to be the most damaging of consequences for ND football. As long as we accept "he's gonna be...." we're in trouble cause that means right now he's 'not'. We deserve "right now", imposters beware.
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:47 am | #

Chait neglects to mention that ND has the second highest number of wins, the second highest winning percentage (by hundredths of a point), the most national championships, the most Heisman winners, etc., etc. -- all facts of which he is certainly aware (especially since in the first two categories ND is right behind Michigan), but of which his credulous non-football fan readers may not be.

Chait also forgets to mention (or is ignorant of) ND's place as a symbol of hope, aspiration, and assimilation to the growing Catholic and immigrant community in America.

Back in the 20s, pro football was a small enterprise; college football was king, and it was the province of the elite. For a small, Catholic school to take on the powers of the East (Army, the Ivies) at their own game and beat them regularly was a powerful symbol to working-class people everywhere, Catholic or not, immigrant or not.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:49 am | #

Gabby,

With all your talk of deserving it 'now,' who would you suggest Notre Dame go out and hire as Weis's replacement?

We've got a coach with a near-impeccable track record who's having a rough season that happens to coincide with fielding one of the most inexperienced teams in Notre Dame's history. Nobody's winning a national title with this year's roster. Nobody.

A little patience and perspective could do everybody a bit of good. Talk to me about all this next year if we're still struggling to reach "pretty awful."
Pete | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:50 am | #

The third-and-one pass came with about a minute left to go in the half. Throwing on any down and distance in the two-minute offense doesn't bug -- you're trying to get down the field in a hurry.

What bugged me much more in the USC game was the 5th ND drive, when the score was still 7-0 with plenty of time left in the half, and we go inc/inc/inc/punt. There was no reason not to run the ball on that series, and we didn't even try it.

In a roundabout way, Dave, I'm agreeing with your point, but with a different example.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:50 am | #

EW -- Re your comment on Charlie's arrogance, I am reminded of what Muhammad Ali said: "It ain't bragging if you can do it." We'll know in the next couple of years if
Charlie can do it.
rays15 | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:52 am | #

Despite the fact that I hate ND with the intensity of a thousand suns, I've got to say: that was an exceptionally well-written, well-reasoned piece. Good job.
Cy | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:56 am | #

..I'm sorry you even responded to his article... We've only succeeded in making Chait smile.

"The only defense is victory."

W. Churchill ...

or Chamberlain, I forget.
yago | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:56 am | #

Pete, well done.

I read that Chait article yesterday. Wow. WOW.

I won't waste my time elaborating on the man's character though I'm sure I'd be right and I've never met him. haha.

Mr. Chait you are clearly a wise man, how do you spell Floyd and Gray?
jaisn | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:56 am | #

I think I will believe the words of another former UM alum, Tom Brady: Charlie is the best coach I have ever had.
akaRonMexico | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:57 am | #

"The last time Charlie Weis coached a college team, he was a graduate assistant with South Carolina in 1985."

According to Weis' book, he was an assistant at South Carolina from 1985 to 1988.

Great article by the way.

Oh...Meechigan Sucks!
The Butobi Brothers | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:02 pm | #

Pete,
BTW, thanks for the read.
I enjoy each CFB season as kind of a unique sacred entity, each filled with moments. Hate to waste one. Charley's track record is not as a Head Coach. He may end up quite successful (hope) at the college level or may not. There are plenty of guys that do well as pro assistants and even pro head coaches that don't do so well on the college level. I believe CFB at it's core to be a very very different arena than the NFL. I for one prefer it. However success in one does not translate to the other. Look at Bill Walsh @ Stanford in the early 90's. All that gas aside, to quote George Bailey "Potter's not selling, he's buying". I'm holding onto my Charley stock.
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:02 pm | #

This nicely written, but in the end, Weis isnt a very good coach. And at age 50, I dont think he is going to get that much better.

This team is the worst I have seen at ND, and it isnt even close. Have not even been close in any of the losses. Anyone who thinks that is just the result of youth is deluding themselves. Its the 8th game of the year, and still losing 38-0, still playing without intensity.

Perhaps the most laughable comment I have seen is that Weis has an "almost impeccable" track record. He has no track record as a successful head coach - none, unless you want to count NJ HS football. And, as we can see, being a coordinator and being a HC are two different things.

I think he will be a NFL O-coordinator again by 2009-2010
flannerforever | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:04 pm | #

You rightly point out Weis' resume, however you come to the wrong conclusion from it. Charlie's resume shows he is a talented coordinator, not talented head coach. I'm not saying he can't become one, just that too many fans forgot the difference. Football is filled with the remains of coordinators that were great but couldn't make the jump to head coach. Of course only time will tell with Charlie.
ev | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:05 pm | #

Gabby,
The problem with saying that we should get a great head coach with head coaching experience at some other school is that we will likely watch him be groomed for the NFL at our school. What I like about Weis is that he has come down to the college level from the NFL and we are his final destination. Let's see how he responds to present circumstances before we pick another name out of a hat.
Brady Finn | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:11 pm | #

Cy,

Glad to see someone who "hates ND with the intensity of a thousand suns" reading an ND blog. I certainly hate USC and others, but you'll never see me reading a site devoted to them. Get ready for a bright ND future with the incoming class!
kyirishman | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:13 pm | #

P.S.
"It's like saying a metal detector happens to be fortunate enough to beep randomly when it sweeps over some spare change."

--very nice! I'll have to remember this one.
Brady Finn | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:14 pm | #

flannerforever,

Here's another theory: Weis is a bad head coach for a team made up primarily of inexperienced youngsters, and a good head coach for a team made up of veterans. Heck, the guy was a halfway-decent defense away from being a national title contender in both of his first two seasons. (And if we're going to go by this year alone, he wouldn't be a good offensive coordinator either, would he?)
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:15 pm | #

I'm not sure I agree with people drawing a distinction between "coordinator" and "coach." Perhaps I'm the mistaken one here, but is there a significant difference between the two, other than the breadth of reach?

Obviously, a coordinator is more concerned with calling plays while the head coach is more managing the entire game, but during practice aren't both basically just working with players to get them to improve and execute at their highest possible level? Perhaps there are issues with motivation and all that, but I don't know if the difference is all that significant.

In other words, is there a skill set Weis developed as a coordinator that isn't applicable to his abilities as a head coach?

People point at the Wannstedts and Camerons of the world as coordinators who failed to make the jump to coach, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a successful head coach that wasn't a successful coordinator at some point. I think those guys are more the exception than the rule.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:22 pm | #

Pete, that's correct. In fact, one of the main criticisms of Ty was that he was never a coordinator at any level, and therefore lacked the acumen to step in and take over gameplanning or playcalling when things were going south.

Most successful head coaches were also successful coordinators.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:26 pm | #

Then where the hell did Willingham do before becoming a head coach? Coach positions?

His Wikipedia entry doesn't have anything before his serving as the head coach at Stanford. I'm beginning to be halfway convinced that Willingham may be a giant practical joke put together by the infamous Stanford Marching Band.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:29 pm | #

"..I'm sorry you even responded to his article... We've only succeeded in making Chait smile."


To the contrary -- the Slate piece includes a link to BGS. Kudos to BGS for capitalizing on it. Welcome Slate readers -- stick around a while.
ND81 | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:30 pm | #

To Anonymous UM Fan,

Wow, this is why I will never understand Michigan fans.

You yourself admit to being one of the many UM fans calling for Carr's head, and that you (like every UM fan I know-I am from Michigan) hated Navarre and couldn't wait for him to leave. UM fans have never woken up to the fact that Carr is a far superior coach to your beloved BO. Carr has won a half NC, which is half more than BO ever won - sure, he won some Big Ten titles, but so what? That could ultimately be the defining difference between an ND fan and a UM fan - the brass ring for us is the NC, not any conference title. So deal with the facts, and by the facts, Carr is superior to Bo, and by no small margin. As a matter of fact, Carr is one of the best coaches in America (A fact that pains me to say).

Another UM trait is never being happy with what you have - Navarre was an EXCELLENT college quarterback, who should have been embraced by the UM faithful, yet "just wasn't what they wanted". You simply are not going to beat OSU every year, so UM fans should have supported their quality quarterback as opposed to booing him and tearing him down. UM fans aren't the best judges of talent, especially at quarterback. Fans spent a couple of years moaning and complaining about another quarterback - a guy named Tom Brady - and couldn't have been happier when Drew Henson was handed the ball.

Yeah, we ND fans do love Brady Quinn and think he will be a great NFL quarterback and do think he is one of the best quarterbacks in history at ND. Why? Well first of all he owns every record at ND, which statistically places him at the top. But it is more than that. Brady was the whipping boy for every slack journalist in this country who wanted to take a shot at ND - they fired on Brady, tried to tear him down - because to beat up on Brady was to beat up on ND. Brady Quinn IS Notre Dame - classy, smart, indomitable. That is why we love him, because he is a part of our Notre Dame family. We believe that Charlie is also part of our family, and we have enough facts and signs to justify the belief that he will get it done on paper as well. And at Notre Dame, this is what we do - we rally around our family, not just when we win, but when we lose too. At Notre Dame we will win in the future because we believe in the ND family, and by extension, one another.

I am not trying to get to touchy feely here, but you touched a nerve by taking a shot at Brady too. I don't wish to get into an argument either, it's just that you either understand the mystique, you feel it in your heart, or you don't. Thanks for reading.
speakirish | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:30 pm | #

Pete and Jay,

Bill Belichick is one of the more notable examples. In fact, he had the label of genius coordinator/miserable head coach from 1996-2000. In Halberstam's book about Belichick, there is a passage where he and Parcells argue over the right defensive call from a game when they were with the Jets. Belichick ends up being right and Parcells mocks him over the headset saying something along the lines of "genius coordinator can't hack it as a head coach."
PJC | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:32 pm | #

I believe Ty went from being the running backs coach for the Vikings to HC at Stanford.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:36 pm | #

well said speakirish.
true2nd | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:36 pm | #

Nicely done. Handled with much more class than I was handling it. I swear someday I'll find an f-bomb on this site. Someday.
domer.mq | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:39 pm | #

I think the bottom line is that at the astronomical salary that the Gas Bag commanded, learning on the job was not part of the deal. It now is what it is, and CW may well end up being a great coach, but ND was duped.
ndagony | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:41 pm | #

"For some sense of the future, we can look at the area Weis has already been forced to tackle a learning curve: recruiting."

Gets the job done, but can't help but desire a "where" in there before Weis. Or, maybe an "in which."

My apologies, back to programming of substance.
Eamus Irish | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:42 pm | #

Noted.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:44 pm | #

So basically it's okay for this author (and most ND fans?)that Notre Dame hired a coach that needs to learn how to be a college head coach, while actually being the head coach at one of the most prestigous programs in the country...and then signed to a 10 year contract extension. Horrible management of the team and embarrassing results are okay because Charlie is learning and you are confident he will improve (why?).

I find it amusing that the 2004 & 2005 recruiting classes are used as one excuse as to why Notre Dame is one of the worst teams in college football this year, yet Boston College, Georgia Tech and Michigan State are three programs with much worse recruiting over the past 5 years and were some how able beat Notre Dame rather easily. From this year's opponents, the only schools that you can say had better recruiting over the past 5 years are USC, Michigan and possibly Penn State, but Charlie somehow gets a pass because of two "down" recruiting years and, oh yeah, there's a learning curve there.

Boston College, Georgia Tech and Michigan State were somehow able to develop 4/5 years of poor recruiting classes into quality football teams that each added a loss to Notre Dame's 2007 total in games which were not competitive. Four out of five of their recruiting classes were poor by ND standards (as they have been described in blogs, and countless message board posts), with each of the three programs with only 1 class rated higher than ND's 2004 or 2005 class over the past 5 years(Scout.com). It's a wonder they have won a game with such poor recuiting.

Better hope Charlie learns quickly and the Kool Aid is sugar free, but the biggest problem may not be Charile - seems there is also a learning curve for whomever has been hiring your last three head coaches. DOH!
Jip | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:46 pm | #

"Like his two Stanford predecessors - Walsh and Green-- Willingham had previously served as a Cardinal assistant coach before being named head coach. He was Stanford's running backs coach under Green from 1989-91 before moving with Green to the Minnesota Vikings, where he again coached running backs from 1992-94. Willingham was an assistant coach on the collegiate and professional levels for 18 years prior to his appointment as Stanford's head coach. During his career as an assistant, he coached on offense, defense and special teams.

"Willingham coached under Green for six seasons, three at Stanford and three with the Vikings. In Minnesota, Willingham helped the Vikings return to prominence as one of the top teams in the National Football League. The Vikings finished 8-8 in 1991, the year before Willingham arrived with Green in Minnesota. In his three seasons in Minnesota, Willingham helped the Vikings win two NFC Central Division championships and advance to the playoffs all three seasons.

"In 1992, the Vikings finished 11-5 and won the NFC Central championship. Willingham's top running back pupil that season, Terry Allen, set a club record by rushing for 1,201 yards. In 1993, Minnesota finished 9-7 and earned a wild card playoff berth. The Vikings won the division title again in '94 and earned another playoff berth with a 10-6 record. While at Stanford (1989-91), Willingham was part of Green's staff that helped turn the program around. The Cardinal went from 3-8 in 1989 to 8-4 in 1991. The 1991 season culminated with a berth in the Aloha Bowl, Stanford's first post-season appearance in five seasons.

"Willingham coached two of the top running backs in Stanford football history during his brief tenure as a Cardinal assistant: Glyn Milburn and Tommy Vardell. Vardell was a first-round NFL pick following the 1991 campaign. Milburn is the fifth leading all-time rusher in Stanford history with 2,178 yards and he is second in the Cardinal record book in all-purpose running with a three-year total of 5,857 yards. Vardell, meanwhile, is sixth all-time at Stanford in rushing with 1,789 yards and first in touchdowns with 37. In 1991, Vardell set a Stanford single-season record for rushing (1,084 yards) and touchdowns (20) while being named the Academic All-American of the Year. Milburn, who set a Stanford record for all-purpose yards in 1990 with Willingham as his coach (2,222 yards), went on to earn first-team All-America honors as an all-purpose player in 1992.

"After graduating from Michigan State in 1977, Willingham continued with the Spartan program as a graduate assistant under head coach Darryl Rogers. In 1978-79, Willingham was the defensive secondary coach at Central Michigan University, with those teams finishing 9-2 and 10-0-1, respectively.

"From 1980-82, Willingham was the defensive secondary and special teams coach at Michigan State under head coach Muddy Waters. He moved to North Carolina State University for three seasons (1983-85), where he again coached special teams and the defensive secondary under head coach Tom Reed. Prior to accepting the position as running backs coach at Stanford under Green, Willingham coached receivers and special teams at Rice University from 1986-88."

http://gohuskies.cstv.com/ sports...m_tyrone00.html
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:47 pm | #

Jay,

Indeed. Confirmation is always appreciated. What bugged me about the running game against SC was they actually could pick up a couple of yards on that defense. A play action would've netted 5 if they ever ran it. Nothing huge mind you, but positive yards.

Like you said, SC was up 7-0 and by no means in control of the game. The SC defense was stout on pass plays, but they were teeing off on them, expecting ND to pass. If you're going to beat a team like SC you've got to at least try to run the ball. If you've got a line that is as talented as ND's, 1 or 2 yards should be at least a 65% conversion.

The game was close and the play calling was horrific, and that led to a blow out in the second half. I think Weis is out-thinking himself and his players. When you've got Hughes and Allen in the backfield, use them. Don't try to be cute with execution-type pass plays that your offense has proven it can't run. Be simple. Be boring. Be successful at it rather than scripting plays your kids can't execute.

It drove me nuts. (mental scream).
Maize n Brew Dave | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:49 pm | #

I'm pretty sure I'm happier with 1-7 than losing to App. State.*

*Comments subject to revision after the Navy game.
IndyTom | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:57 pm | #

Jip,

While MSU, BC, et al. indeed may have had equal to worse recruiting classes over the Ty years, take a look at the players that are currently on the team from those years.

Most of them quit the team or transferred out the program. ND is essentially missing a 5th year and senior class. MSU, BC, G-Tech all have deep senior and 5th year classes.
T | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:58 pm | #

Maize n Brew Dave,

Play calling always looks horrendous when you cannot run the ball effectively.

People suddenly this year have decided that Weis is a poor play caller. It was his play calling that got us to two BCS bowls over the past two years. It was his play calling two years ago in the USC game (which was nothing short of brilliant) that allowed us to nearly DOUBLE USC in time of possession, and come dangerously close to beating a vastly superior team.

Our team has few juniors, and even less seniors. We lack team leadership from the upperclassman, and have a young team that doesn't understand fundamentals or technique yet.

When you can't block, or run the ball at all, you need to make a decision. ND could 1) do what you desire, and continue to futily run the ball to no avail, or 2) do what Weis has done in his first two seasons when we had trouble running the ball, and scheme his way (X and Os being his strength) into finding his team a chance to win.



P.S. To all ND fans, please, for the love of God, stop bitching about Weis' play calling when the QB throws a 5 yard pass when its 3rd and 10. I GUARANTEE Weis does not tell the QB to throw the ball short. When you have inexperienced QBs, they often forget about down and distance and simply try to deliver the ball to the open man. If you want to bitch about Weis having not prepared the QB for such situations, go ahead. I'm fine with that. But coaches don't call short plays on 3rd and long unless they intentionally want to set up a good punt for field position. ANY pass play called will always have short routes in it to keep the coverage honest and spread out. I'm done now.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:06 pm | #

Can we stop with all the 'Ty' stuff??
he is not coming back, he can not scare you anymore.
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:06 pm | #

Jip makes a fair, but separate comment about the wisdom of hiring a guy who had never been a college or pro HC before. And Pete acknowledged the same in his post, referencing the quote from Ara.

We're hitting some bumps in the road, some of which an experienced HC probably could have swerved to avoid. But we're not at the point where we need to switch drivers.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:08 pm | #

Very well-written piece, Pete.

What bothers me the most about this whole situation is just the misunderstanding that every single person in the universe has about how ND fans really feel. If I had a dollar for every time someone said that "ALL Domers blame all of this on Willingham" or "Every ND fan out there thinks Weis is the best coach alive"...I'd be pretty well off. I really have not seen anyone out there who blames everything on Willingham, or still sees Weis as nearly infallible. Every ND fan I've come across is fairly sensible, explaining that while Willingham's poor recruiting still has an effect on the program, Weis and Weis alone is to blame. It drives me crazy because it is so untrue.

My "favorite" part of that Slate piece (meaning the part that I laughed at the hardest) was the writer's mentioning of Willingham's "poor recruiting" at Notre Dame and then, a few paragraphs later, "a couple of excellent Willingham recruiting classes." Um, what? Chait immediately lost all credibility with me with those statements, not that he had much to begin with.

In reference to some of the comments on this thread so far, I don't agree with all this "We deserve a good head coach NOW" garbage. What are we, 3-year-olds with a huge sense of entitlement? Give the man a freaking chance. I didn't hear any of that crap when ND went 19-6 Weis' first two years, and I won't want to hear it ever again unless we have another losing season next year.

speakirish, great comments about Brady. It made me sick the way everyone jumped on him, a guy who was nothing but a class act. As a huge BQ fan, it was really upsetting to see him turned into the "poster child" for all things wrong with ND, when in fact he signified everything that is right about it.

In sum, I'm with Coach Weis on this one. Laugh now, because in a few years we'll be the last ones laughing. I really and truly believe that.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:09 pm | #

Every ND fan I've come across is fairly sensible, explaining that while Willingham's poor recruiting still has an effect on the program, Weis and Weis alone is to blame.

Change "to blame" to "responsible for the program" and you are 100% correct. Nitpicking, I know, but to me "blame" implies complete causation of the problems therein. You can't blame Weis because we have such a thin senior and fifth-year pool of players, and you can't blame Willingham because this collection of players was not properly prepared beginning in the spring to succeed.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:14 pm | #

Nice posting.

Of course Chait is gonna miss points in order to paint an overly negative picture of Notre Dame football and their "undeserving" prominence. You either love Notre Dame or you hate them. There are so few people who have an interest in college football that are lukewarm about Notre Dame. Therefore, lukewarm media about Notre Dame doesn't sell (that's why you never see it). All media which takes a side sells, because it gets a reaction out of everyone. This sort of marketing is used very effectively by ESPN, as they put Mark May and Lou Holtz together for College Football coverage. I'd have to say the balance of that program tips toward the side of ND haters, as Mark May has to be the most vehement ND hater of all-time (I'm pretty positive...[I'm calling you out, bastard...if you're reading this, which you're probably not]...that Mark May doesn't hate Notre Dame as much as he shows [although he does surely hate ND]....he's PAID OFF to be that extreme, because it gets such a rise out of ND fans).

With regard to Weis, we have to be at least somewhat patient, which in this day and age of lightning fast communication, is really difficult to do. Look at the correlation between top recruiting and top 25 programs. It's uncanny. The programs that consistently bringing in top classes win...plain and simple. Let Weis fill out his classes, meaning let this sophomore class finish their senior season, before beheading the guy. He's a good coach who has the desire to get better, and he will.

Let me take another last shot at the Mark Mays of the world. The argument about equal treatment of Weis and Willingham was inevitable, but you guys started it. And that started right after the Georgia Tech game "Ooooo...oooo...blowout loss at home? You gonna fire Weis now?! Huh, oh, then I guess you all are racists just like I thought!" No we're not gonna fire Weis now because that lazy-ass who never gave a shit about University of Notre Dame decided to literally sleep on recruiting during his depressing stay as head coach and now we're paying the price for it. Then the response: "Aahhh, aaahhh, how dare you say that?!!! Blaming Weis's failures on Willingham...well, now you've really proven that you're a racist." And they do this with the intention of driving away recruits from ND (and if that's not "truly" their intention, then they damn well know that that's a potential effect)...and Weis is still getting them!!! If Weis can overcome that and keep bringing in top classes, I'm pretty sure he can overcome anything.

I can't wait for your speechlessness in 2009, Mark!
Matt | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:16 pm | #

Of course just about every head coach was a coordinator at one time. However that doesn't mean every coordinator will make a good head coach. The duties and resposiblities between the two jobs are like night and day. A head coach is about vision, direction, staffing, recruiting, so many different things than just x's and o's. ND hired a man with no real head coaching experience for probably the biggest program in the nation. For the first two years pointed out he was a genius, and now want everyone to understand there is a learning curve. Remember some guys enter the learing curve and never come out the other end...
ev | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:16 pm | #

I love how ND fans who pay attention to all aspects of the program are supportive of Weis, but everybody who hates ND is trying to stoke a fire saying Weis should be gone. Cut the BS. They just wish we still had Willingham so we wouldn't be a threat anymore. Unfortunately for them, Weis isn't going anywhere.
Brian '06 | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:19 pm | #

Another Opus from Pete and BGS.
One other reason everyone was jealous, envious, of Brady Quinn: He could walk into the room and steal your girlfriend's heart.
I cannot recall in my 66 years any one who was more of a role model for any university, or sports team than the aforementioned BQ.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:29 pm | #

Right you are, DJ. I like your wording better; that's how I should have said it in the first place.

"Remember some guys enter the learing curve and never come out the other end..."

And some guys do. I'm not saying Weis will, but I am saying he deseves another shot before being completely written off.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:31 pm | #

The OL still stinks. For some reason Coach Latina seems to get the benefit of doubt. This year, last year and the year before ND's OL has underachieved.
Paddy | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:32 pm | #

"One other reason everyone was jealous, envious, of Brady Quinn: He could walk into the room and steal your girlfriend's heart."

Ha. As a girl, it never fails to amaze me how ridiculously jealous and bitter guys get about other good-looking guys. As an impartial observer who of course never took a second glance at BQ (yeah, right), I can say that they should have been envious. But only about 25% of it had to do with looks; the other 75% was that he has always seemed to be a really good person who wouldn't get on the Internet and anonymously attack some guy they've never even met.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:35 pm | #

I cannot recall in my 66 years any one who was more of a role model for any university, or sports team than the aforementioned BQ.

May I suggest Nile Kinnick, of the University of Iowa, for starters.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:35 pm | #

T: regarding lack of 5th year seniors for Notre Dame. How many were at Notre Dame at the time of Weis' hiring, and how many were still around for Weis' 1st and 2nd year. Most of them quit and transferred...why?

T, MSU, GT and BC did not just have equal to worse recruiting over the past 5 years compared to ND, overall they would have killed to have had the talent ND has had.

How have Weis' recruits developed thus far? Look at his first recuiting class (not the one he jumped into after Ty was canned).

Let's look at some of the headliners in first class (first full class):
1. Sam Young? Superstar tackle recruit. Not living up to expectations/VERY high recruiting ranking. I'll admit, I haven't focused on him as much in the last few games but he looked unbelievably bad in the first 3 games of the year. Unreal for a kid so talented. EVERYBODY wanted this kid.
2. Konrad Reuland. Where is he? 5 start recruit.
3. Darrin Walls. Big time corner recuit from PA. Solid but not spectacular. I like him, but not a difference maker.
4. Zach Frazier. A great get for ND. Where is he?
5. James Aldridge. Very highly rated RB/FB recruit (especially by Lemming). Nothing special. Not a back I look at and think he's really developing into a good one.
6. Matt Carufel. Where is he? highly rated OL from MN.
7. Toryan Smith. Highly rated LB from GA that is behind Willingham recruit Brockington (what?)
8. Raeshon McNeil. Highly rated corne r that is behind Willingham recruit Lambert.

The 8 above were all recruits that were highly sought after and got the fan base excited. Not one of them can you look at and say 'man, he's really improved since last year' (if they played as true frosh) and the ones that left were very talented/highly rated.

A little early, I know, but the transfers are alarming and you usually see a stud or two from such a highly rated class. Sam Young doesn't look any better than his true freshman season. I'm surprised that any Willingham recruits could even play a down as they have been reported to be so lousy.

Lambert, Brockington, Bruton, Zbikowski, Crum, Travis Thomas, Sharpley, John Sullivan, John Carlson, Trevor Laws and Dwight Stevenson ... how do they manage to hold off Weis' recruits when they are so they have been said to be so void of talent. Surely Weis' recruits could have taken over the jobs of the few Willingham recuits that have stuck around.

All the writing is on the wall that Charlie Weis is not cut out for coaching and developing college kids. I've wondered why he got all the hype when he was blown out by OSU, Michigan, USC and LSU with talent ... now it's flat out embarrassing with what should only be a down year, not historically bad.
Jip | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:46 pm | #

Indy Tom,

How about 1-7 and getting absolutely throttled by the team that lost to Appy State?

You can be bitter, but don't be a fool.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:50 pm | #

Pete,

Perfectly stated.

Nice work.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:56 pm | #

Fair points about Weis not having the recent head-coaching experience before coming to ND, but don't forget the circumstances of his hiring: he was ND's second choice.

Ty got canned BEFORE the season was over, ostensibly to give us a shot at none other than Urban Meyer.

Meyer brought to the table exactly what has been noted as the pedigree required to succeed in college football: experience as a coordinator (at ND) and a proven track record as a head-coach in college football(Bowling Green and Utah). Let's be honest, the guy had some top credentials.

We didn't get him. We expected to, and did not. So, we got Charlie, and we made the best of the situation we could.

(As an aside, I've always thought that ND fans' collective hatred of Urban Meyer is similar to the somewhat irrational hatred often heaped on the hot girl who shoots one down. How many times has a friend professed love for a girl, only to be unable to talk about how awful she is after it has become clear there is no way she's going to go out with him. Maybe that's ND and Urban Meyer.)
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:02 pm | #

How many times has a friend professed love for a girl, only to be unable to talk about how awful she is after it has become clear there is no way she's going to go out with him. Maybe that's ND and Urban Meyer.

Perhaps. But Urban and his DC, Greg Mattison (another former ND assistant) have gotten a particulary nasty reputation for continuing to recruit players who have already made verbal committments, and in ND's case, spreading erroneous information while doing so.

I suspect, but for this alleged "post-break-up behavior", ND would have gotten over Meyer a long time ago.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:07 pm | #

I think ND fans had pretty much gotten over Meyer until his perceived "poaching" of Trattou recently, and the way in which he went about doing it (taking former ND assistants to his house, etc.).

To be honest, at this point I would still rather have Weis than Meyer. That's not to knock Meyer's skills as a coach, because they are indisputably great. But it's still fair to say that Meyer had the benefit of Zook's great recruiting classes in his MNC run, while Weis...well, he didn't. And I think BQ would have looked like an idiot trying to run Meyer's offense.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:11 pm | #

Great piece,Pete. I believe Lous says,"Things arent as good as they seem or as bad as they seem, but somewhere in between." Charlie isnt as great as we thought or as bad as we think, but somewhere in between. Can he be a great head coach, absolutley, that is up to him. Can he be a total failure, absolutely, again that is up to him. When you look at the experience disparagy(I hope that is a word) that is a fact, not an excuse, and USC had a lot to prove that game. We had to play a perfect game to beat them, I dont think that we could have played 4 perfect quarters but it may have been closer than it was. Let us not get into the we have seen the enemy and it is us mentality. We need to make sure that the young guys who may be reading these entries and playing for the Irish dont view us as the enemy. The young kids are playing their hearts out and bring a lot of enthusiasm, dont break their spirit. We love ya coach, Win or Win, since there are no ties anymore. Charlie loves the university, he is a native son like many of you, I would hope and feel secure that this is tearing him up even more than it is you. Saying "get your shots in now" is not being arrogant, he has confidence in what is building from this and yes, I feel they better get their shots in now. You dont build anything without a foundation and we have finally started putting in the foundation. If we cannot start putting up the rest of the house next year and finish it the following year then yes, we do have the wrong person swinging the hammer.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:12 pm | #

Go, speakirish, go!
Hal | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:13 pm | #

Jip,

Nd's problem is not a lack of talent. It's a lack of EXPERIENCED talent. There's very few impact players in the junior-5th years, and, in fact, few bodies period in those classes.

BC, to take one example, has 17 guys on their roster who have graduated from the school already.

Look, no one's saying this season's a good one. But it's understandable. Inexperience + brutal 8-game stretch against 5 top 20 defenses = a very bad opening to the season.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:18 pm | #

I think a lot of you have a really good perspective on the situation, and that gives me hope for ND. The few fans I personally know here in southern California show an impatience with Weis and the players that, frankly, I find childish.

Now, everyone who thinks we should have gotten a great head coach NOW - instead of a guy with no head coaching experience above the high school level - needs to remember two things:

1) No respectable head coaches wanted to come to ND in 2004/2005. They saw a big rebuilding project for ND, and it turns out they were correct.
2) Its not like Weis came into a national championship-caliber team, and started screwing it up while he learns to be a head coach. Notre Dame was a few years away from falling off the edge of a cliff unless someone stepped in and started correcting the problem. Weis has started that process.

Weis has begun to turn around the program by bringing in talented recruits. While it may not appear, on the surface, that the program is turning around this year - well, it is. Sure, Weis has made mistakes. The team is not experienced/talented enough to make up for those mistakes this year. But I firmly believe Weis is smart enough to realize his shortcomings, and correct them. Only time will tell if my assumption is correct.

Sorry for this long rant, I've just had it bottled up for a while. In short, considering the circumstances, we need to show some patience now. Weis needs to do two things following this season

1) Fire Latina and Polian (at least). Their respective parts of the team have underachieved consistently the last three years.
2) Reach a bowl game next year, preferably a respectable one. And hopefully win it.

If those don't happen, then we can start worrying about Weis.
Aequitas | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:21 pm | #

The learning parabola reached its lowest point at Michigan and began going up the rest of the season. I thought ND would be 6-6 this season before knowing the mistakes Weis would make- (see NDNation.com's Boys vs. Men).
This article captures nicely why the Irish will end up 5-7 this year and 9-3 next. Sharpley and Armando Allen leading the rest of the offense are on the same curve as Weis- inexperienced and making adjustments but with the courage and the enthusiasm to turn this thing around. Hold on fellas- the rollercoaster is just about to pick up steam!
Bill V | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:22 pm | #

I kind of look at this season as the perfect storm of every negative thing possible hitting ND's football program at the same time:

*True freshman starting QB, barely over 200 lbs., rarely even hit in high school, coming off of elbow surgery...is sacked 23 times in 6 starts

*Graduation of the 4 year leader of the team (Quinn)

*Depleted to nonexistent senior classes

*3 new starters on the OL (Yes, I've heard a time or two that Auburn is dealing with this problem quite successfully. But I think we can agree that that is the exception rather than the rule.)

*New RB, new WRs, new defense

*To date, the #2 schedule in the country

I don't care how "talented" these guys are; they've had a whole host of problems from the very beginning. Certainly the results on the field have been worse than even these issues merit, but they really shouldn't be altogether that shocking.

Personally, I think only JaMarcus Russell could have cobbled together a winning season from these circumstances.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:27 pm | #

I could see having a losing season with inexperience, but BC has a starting true freshman tackle and it seems to be doing all right.

It is one thing to struggle and lose, it is another to play without heart and get blown out every week.

What is ND's closest loss? 14 points? Do you know how rare it is to see a spread of 14 points? ND would lose everyone of those bets.

Grimace needs to wake up before NBC takes the money and runs.

I was at the last two games. The bad news is that I got shut out of the lottery. The good news is that you can buy tickets for face. The problem is that I wasted my money. I thought I was going to see some football games - but it takes two teams to make it a game.
Golden Domer | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:28 pm | #

ND started a true freshman tackle last year too, and it worked out okay. What's your point?
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:32 pm | #

I could see having a losing season with inexperience, but BC has a starting true freshman tackle and it seems to be doing all right.

Wasn't he the one who was getting beaten like a drum on almost every play, including on those corner blitzes that VT was successful on early in the game? He'll be all right in time...
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:33 pm | #

Let's try that again Jip.

1. Sam Young? Superstar tackle recruit. Not living up to expectations/VERY high recruiting ranking. I'll admit, I haven't focused on him as much in the last few games but he looked unbelievably bad in the first 3 games of the year. Unreal for a kid so talented. EVERYBODY wanted this kid.

Pat: Young has had a poor showing so far. A wrist injury hampered him at the start of the year, but regardless he has not looked like the tackle many expected him to be

2. Konrad Reuland. Where is he? 5 start recruit.

Pat: Reuland was beat out by a classmate Will Yeatman and another 5-star recruit, Mike Ragone. You cite Reuland as proof the coaches aren't developing players while ignoring the development of Yeatman and Ragone.

3. Darrin Walls. Big time corner recuit from PA. Solid but not spectacular. I like him, but not a difference maker.

It's pretty clear that Walls is going to be a very good cover corner at ND. And he did beat out older players for the starting spot as a sophomore, which seems to be your criteria for "developing" players.

4. Zach Frazier. A great get for ND. Where is he?

Pat: Frazer was a good get. And he lost out to other quarterbacks that were better than him. Again, you cite the loser of a position battle of proof of poor development without mentioning the winner.

5. James Aldridge. Very highly rated RB/FB recruit (especially by Lemming). Nothing special. Not a back I look at and think he's really developing into a good one.

Pat: Another sophomore that beat out a 5th year senior for the starting job. You cited failure to beat out the older players as proof of failure to develop. Well, here's another one that did it.

6. Matt Carufel. Where is he? highly rated OL from MN.

Pat: He left after losing his temporary starting job to a classmate Eric Olsen. Carufel was the 5th ranked OG in his class. Olsen was the 6th ranked (per rivals.com). Yet again you focus on the loser only of a position battle

7. Toryan Smith. Highly rated LB from GA that is behind Willingham recruit Brockington (what?)

Pat: Smith has been seeing the field more lately, but Brockington is just a solid football player who is always in on the tackle. And since you are focused on listing only the highest rated players in this class, it should be pointed out that Smith, like Brockington, was a 3-star recruit.

8. Raeshon McNeil. Highly rated corner that is behind Willingham recruit Lambert.

Pat: McNeil was ND's starting nickel back until injuring himself a few games ago. He'll get more playing time as he gets healthy. But yeah, the sophomore didn't take away the starting corner job from 5th year Lambert. For shame.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:34 pm | #

Jip,
1. Sam Young - Most 1st year OL recruits do not start, period. They're groomed over the first 2 years and may start in their 3rd year. The kid still has two years of eligibility.
2. Konrad Reuland - Gone. He was beaten out by Yeatman and an equally stellar HS recruit coming in. Of all of your examples this is the weakest, TE is probably the strongest, deepest position on the team.
3. Darrin Walls - Again, he's a sophomore, on most teams he wouldn't be starting.
4. Zach Frazier - Again, a very weak argument. QB is a very strong position, he wasn't going to see playing time, so he hit the road.
5. James Aldridge. I believe he's been injured. Again, a sophomore.
6. Matt Carufel - See Sam Young above. He wouldn't be seeing ANY playing time at most DI schools as a sophomore. He left because others had passed him.
7. Toryan Smith - Again, a Sophomore, still way too early to tell. Most places he wouldn't be seeing much playing time.
8. Raeshon McNeil - Again, he's young.

There is no possible way to make any sort of "evaluation" on these players overall careers when most of them are in their first full year of playing time. Next year's early schedule is quite a bit easier and guess what, most of the starters on offense and defense are coming back.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:34 pm | #

Starting realize that ND diehards avoid the reality of how bad Charlie Weis is because they know they are stuck with him(10 year extension...make me sick).

Make the best of what is a disgusting situation.

I agree with Golden Domer. I could see a losing season with an inexperienced team, but not one that you get blown out week after week. This offensive genius is guiding what may end up to be the worst offense is NCAA history.
Jip | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:35 pm | #

You are reaching Jip.

First, those are all sophmores that have been in the program for a year and a half. You are comparing some of them to 5th and 4th year seniors. Second, Konrad Reuland and Matt Carufel were both beat out by two different players and it appears they transferred due to playing time issues. Walls, Smith, McNeal, Aldridge and Young are all key players for ND. Fraiser transferred after becoming 4th string QB.

Jip, just say you don't like ND and go away. The only question is who is Jip:

a) San Clemente for the WWW blog
b) Stacey Kibler Loves Me from EDSBS
c) Some Michigan tool obsessed with ND
d) Some Fredo fan obsessed with ND
WALKER | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:38 pm | #

Starting realize that ND diehards avoid the reality of how bad Charlie Weis is because they know they are stuck with him(10 year extension...make me sick).

Reading your drivel does that to a person, too, son. Bob Davie got an extension before he was fired one year later. All the clause does is set the severance price if you decide to cut your losses and move on.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:38 pm | #

He's a Michigan fan Walker.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:40 pm | #

Honestly, for everyone that is a "fan" hating on ND right now, leave. I don't mean leave the site, but as a fan go away. Because I just know these idiots are going to be saying "WE WERE WITH HIM ALL ALONG" 2 years from now. And I don't want to celebrate with those bandwagon fans, I really don't. I'm a proud alum, a proud fan, and becomming more and more disgusted by the hate spewing from the "fans."
Oreo | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:42 pm | #

Pat, I did say it was early and I was making a point that even his first full class, a very good one, already lacks promise. The spin is that Ty left the cupboad bare, but what has Charlie done for player development during his time here? That was my point. If the problem is largely due to Charlie being dealt a bad hand with no senior talent you'd think you'd see some promise from the younger players. Not so. His first 2 classes were highly rated.

You say Rueland and Carufel were just simply beaten out. That's easy enough to say. Surely no more to it than that? Demetrius Jones, opening day starter, was simply beaten out and tipped his cap to Jimmy on the way out the door didn't he? I think you'll find, in time, that Weis is not the best communicator to this age group.

Players don't just simply leave when they are passed on the depth chart - kind of hard to imagine when they have NOTHING (virtually no 4th and 5th year talent?) in front of them.

Regarding Young: some players are studs. Young is a stud. The fact that he doesn't look any better than last year, and at times worse, is very scary.
Jip | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:44 pm | #

Walker: I thought the 4th and 5th year seniors are horrible (Ty's fault).
Jip | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:48 pm | #

Jip, kindly note that NOBODY says that everyone in the 4th and 5th year classes are horrible. And I do mean nobody. So you can sit there and generalize all you want if it makes your "point" stronger, but it also makes your statements inaccurate.

Also, for the 89th time, NOBODY is blaming everything on Ty.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:51 pm | #

Actually, it is easier to believe that a player would leave when someone from their class or younger beats them out. If a sophomore is not playing over a 5th year, he figures he'll get the opportunity again next year when the 5th year is gone. If you lose your spot to someone in your class or younger, you might get spooked and figure that you'll never get a chance to start. Case in point is Konrad Reuland.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:52 pm | #

Agreed Jade. No one is saying that the seniors and 5th year players are horrible and the reason ND is losing. What people are saying is that the lack of additional talented and experienced seniors and 5th year players is one of the reasons ND is losing.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:52 pm | #

Jip,

Who do you root for? I ask because I'd like to take a stab at replacing the bulk of your upper-class starters with frosh and sophs, then swapping out two or three of your early-season cupcake games for real competition.

Then we can take a stab at what your record would be, and, by extension, whether your coach is any good.

Fair?
Hal | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:55 pm | #

Great article BGS I agree 100 percent with you . I am really looking forward to spring football already. These last four weeks should be interesting also
joseph c white | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:56 pm | #

Jip,

I think you're looking too far into things when you say "Players don't just simply leave when they are passed on the depth chart - kind of hard to imagine when they have NOTHING (virtually no 4th and 5th year talent?) in front of them." The truth is, they do leave, they leave all the time. The fact is, as a Sophomore, if you're beaten out by another Sophomore, or in some cases, a Freshman, that may be it for your career at that particular school. With Rueland and Carufel, obviously, they saw the writing on the wall. With regard to Jones, apparently the kid may not have been very bright, or looking too far into the future, he might have started by now. Then again, his appearance against GT was so bad, maybe he realized he would probably not get another chance. When you go from ND to N. Ill or Cincinnati, that's not really a "lateral" move.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:58 pm | #

Exactly, Pat. But it just sounds so much better (and makes ND fans look so much more ridiculous) to claim that we blame every single little thing on Ty, no matter how far from the truth it is.

Oh, and good job, Hal.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:58 pm | #

Jip,

You are a true Michigan Man. There is some talented 4th year seniors and 5th year seniors. The key is that there are only 7 4th year seniors and 9 5th year seniors.

I find it interesting that actual ND fans, although not happy with this season, still think Weis is building a solid foundation for the program. Most people that want Weis gone are fans of other schools.
WALKER | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:02 pm | #

"Most people that want Weis gone are fans of other schools."

Which is great, because you'd think that if he were really so horrible, they'd want him to stay.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:04 pm | #

No point in disagreeing with Jip, as his argument consistently shifts to new territory as soon as it has been refuted.
kmf | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:04 pm | #

"I'm pretty sure I'm happier with 1-7 than losing to App. State.*"

Indy,

You'd rather get blown out by 38 points by the team that lost to AppState and still has a chance at the Rose Bowl?

This, and that column about not rushing the field after ND beats BC, is why other programs love to pile it on. You're arrogant and always try to rationalize the fact that you think you're better than others.
mrak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:06 pm | #

excuse me, "fans of other programs"
mrak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:06 pm | #

Pat, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't D. Jones comment on Weis, in his opinion, not being honest with him. He commented that he thought Weis didn't give him a fair shot at the starting quarterback position. The kid might not be very bright you say - I find it hard to believe that Notre Dame would recruit a kid and start him at QB if he were less than bright.

You say I'm looking too far into things, but I find it incredibly simplistic to say they left because of playing time and playing time only.
Jip | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:07 pm | #

@ jade - ever notice how the "toughest" schedules in the country mid-season seem to go to the worst 10 teams in football?
This state means nothing.

Weis' record over his first two seasons included wins over Stanford (x2), UCLA, Navy (x2), Army, UNC, Air Force, and BYU (that's almost half his wins), and a bunch of mediocre teams (e.g. Reggie Ball-led Georgia Tech). The three games last year against solid teams were losses by a combined 73 pts. His only big wins were over UM and Tennessee when each team had a terrible season by their standards.

It's certainly possible ND will improve under Weis within the next few years, but I don't think you can argue he's really done anything for the program thusfar.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:09 pm | #

*this STAT means nothing
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:09 pm | #

"You'd rather get blown out by 38 points by the team that lost to AppState and still has a chance at the Rose Bowl?"

I can't speak for Indy, but my answer to that question is yes. At least there's some "honor" in losing to UM, no matter who they lost to. And the fact that your team can lose to App. State and still get to the Rose Bowl is a big reason why ND fans don't want to join a conference. (I know that has no bearing on the topic at hand, but it still gets me going.)
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:10 pm | #

"I don't think you can argue he's really done anything for the program thusfar."

Right, Maize. Right. Guess those two BCS games don't count.
kmf | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:13 pm | #

Michigan might go to the Rose Bowl and App St probably wont win the SOCON. They have two losses in the SOCON and may not even make the playoffs this year. Michigan was number 5 in the country when they lost to App, so I agree with Jade, I would rather lose to a Michigan team by 38 than to a DIAA team that wont win their conference.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:13 pm | #

@ kmf - they don't. try joining a conference instead of scheduling Navy, Air Force, Duke, and Stanford as your last four games and then i'll be more inclined to believe you. i'll also pull up the scores of those two games if you wish.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:15 pm | #

Dont you just love Michigan fans. It is no big disgrace to lose to Michigan, with an inexperienced team playing at the Outhouse, but mighty Meeshigan....will be forever the highest ranked team to lose to a D1AA school and fall completely out of the rankings. Now that is something for the greatest football school ever to be proud of, not to mention how foolish Oregon made them look the next week, a fake statue of liberty for a td, used that play on the playground many, many years ago, that score could have been worse and mighty Meeshigan isnt out of the woods yet.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:19 pm | #

The irony of a Michigan fan demanding that Notre Dame join a conference, when Michigan successfully blocked Notre Dame's repeated attempts to join what became the Big 10 in the early part of the 20th Century, is staggering...
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:19 pm | #

Or we could try scheduling Wofford and Eastern Michigan and Ball St
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:20 pm | #

It is ok mrak, you can be a ND fan as well.
WALKER | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:23 pm | #

Off topic, but is it not time to remove the Mgoblog link from the blogroll? Brian Crook has consistently proven himself to be incapable of writing anything other than sensationalist, text message shorthand-filled (OMG!!! WTF??) posts composed almost entirely of single-mindedness, spin control, and ND vitriol.

The guy doesn't deserve any links from BGS, as it's clear the kind of readership he attracts is the polar opposite of the typical BGS reader.
j hitach | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:23 pm | #

Doug and Jade,

You, Me, and Juan Valdez all know that Michigan was not top five material. Pre-season rankings are useless. It took a horrible game (and horrible coaching) against AppState and a blowout loss (to a legitimate top five team, as of right now) to show that. I could point to last year's ND team for the same type of proof.

Michigan also destroyed a Purdue team that, although you wouldn't have guessed given the reaction on here after the game, manhandled ND.

This is why other fans don't think ND fans are rational. Even if the scoreboard doesn't indicate it, you are the better team.
mrak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:24 pm | #

@ DJ - "the early part of the 20th century"??? man, you really can hold a grudge.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:25 pm | #

@ j hitach - wasn't mgoblog voted the second best college football blog in the country last year, behind EDSBS? i'd say that carries more weight than your argument.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:28 pm | #

"Even if the scoreboard doesn't indicate it, you are the better team."

No. We're not. If it makes it easier for you to hate ND fans by believing we all (even the majority of us) think that way, fine. But I can assure you that nobody thinks that way.

Also, I don't believe I said anything about Michigan being a top 5 team or even being a good team. I just said I'd rather lose to Michigan than App. State. Once again, whatever makes you feel better.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:28 pm | #

@ DJ - "the early part of the 20th century"??? man, you really can hold a grudge.

No grudge here, friend. :) Michigan's blocking of Notre Dame's joining the Big 10 forced coaches Jess Harper and his successor, Knute Rockne, to go far and wide to find willing opponents to play. Thus was built Notre Dame's national "brand" (God, I hate using marketing terms in sports discussions, but I'm at a loss for words right now!).
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:28 pm | #

Walker: when did I say I wanted Weis to leave? I find ND and Weis fascinating. It's just so fascinating watching and reading this unfold. An unbelievable contract coupled with ridiculous hype for this goofy-looking, arrogant fat man, this supposed genius (self-proclaimed?) who never played college football and never was a head coach in college or the pros. All this hype and it he just may have been a guy who twice landed in the right place at the right time. A fan base eats up the hype and it's a collosal failure. Just a train wreck. Here you have such a storied program, a fan base that loves their program so much they can't admit how bad a fraud like Charlie Weis embarrassed them. I mean it's so bad you have one person in this thread happy that Charlie Weis is approaching this "learning curve" with enthusiasm and courage. It's so bad Notre Dame is not even competitive with Michigan State, Georgia Tech, Penn State and Boston College. How far has this come? It's so bad that a coach three years removed from the program is still given some of the blame.

I've never seen a top program such as Notre Dame be this embarrassingly bad. What makes it so entertaining are you guys. Your blind optimism and delusion have entertained me over and over. Notre Dame fans are the Badhdad Bob's of college football fans. Don't ever change.

I want Weis to stay. Definitely. But I don't think it matters what too many on this board want - he's likely not going anywhere anytime soon with that contract.
Jip | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:29 pm | #

And the further irony that most teams in most conferences stink - far worse than the teams in the slate of games that ND annually schedules.For many years the Big Ten was the Big Two and the Little Eight - and it hasn't progressed all that far from those days, as the annual NU dormat status matches the MSU midseason implosion that precedes the Purdue failure to live up to potential and the U of Minehaha's pathetic attempts to get back up to bad. PAC 10? Ditto until the last few years. SEC - a bit more balance, as with the Big 12. But NO conference schedule can ever match the potential that an independent has to schedule challenging games, as ND generally has tried to do.
OSU played Akron, Kent State, and Ohio U. UM plays Eastern Michigan, Western Michigan, and Appalachian State. Does Mr Maize Not Blue seriously contend that those schools - and the scores like them that fill up the win columns of SEC, Big 12, and other conference teams - are actually superior to service academy teams that are often competitive with the big boys (especially the East Coast big boys)?
Please.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:29 pm | #

well then maybe you should thank us for getting you national exposure (only kidding). from all i've heard, though, ND's status as an independent has not been for a lack of big 10 interest as of late. obviously we'd love to have ND in the conference.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:31 pm | #

didn't D. Jones comment on Weis, in his opinion, not being honest with him. He commented that he thought Weis didn't give him a fair shot at the starting quarterback position.

Yes Jip, he did SAY that. And perhaps - PERHAPS - he was being truthful when he said it. But what did you want Weis to do, tell him "Listen kid, we're only starting you because the guy who should be starting is recovering from surgery, so get out there and make sure not to screw up, because if you do the job's going to the frosh!"

Now THERE'S a way to "communicat[e] to this age group" ...
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:31 pm | #

Just got back from Court-imagine work interfering with BGS!
Great topic and comments so far. As to one of the original posters-the reason we love Brady and you guys hated Navarre is that Brady was our main man whereas you always had a much stronger supporting cast. I can't say I recall many specifics about Navarre, but Brady rallied the team several times with individual efforts. Its not always about wins and losses, its how you respond under pressure. My sense is that Navarre and Henne now tend to fold under pressure.Even in some of our epic losses, Brady rallied the team but the D was not up to the task.
With respect to Charlie, how many coaches, college or pro are on record for saying they made a mistake and are going to change an approach. My sense is that there are virtually none except Charlie. So, laugh while you can, Mich fan, my sense is that starting next year you'll see why we still support Charlie in this dark year.
canuck 75 | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:32 pm | #

... he's likely not going anywhere anytime soon with that contract.

Yeah, because it's not like ND was willing to pick up the severance packages on their last two coaches.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:33 pm | #

@ JimK

we actually don't play western michigan this year. so... yeah. but i'll include Minn as a suck team and say that the "cupcake game" battle this year looks more like ND: 4, UM: 3.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:36 pm | #

from all i've heard, though, ND's status as an independent has not been for a lack of big 10 interest as of late. obviously we'd love to have ND in the conference.

The Big 10 would certainly love to have a twelfth member so as to permit them to have a conference football championship game (imagine the hype at Lucas Oil Stadium, or Ford Field, or the Metrodome, or Soldier Field). And joining the Big 10 and the academic consortium would be very benificial to ND's academic program. But we've studied the issue about 15 years ago, and have decided not to join. I guess we'd rather be your good neighbors as opposed to your housemates.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:36 pm | #

I don't understand what Jip and Chait and other opposing critics would have us do. Fire Charlie?

Is it that wrong to think that firing him now would be premature? Given the way Faust, Davie and Willingham were roasted, it's clear the Irish fan base has a low threshold for incompetence. The fact that almost all Irish fans are willing to give Charlie some more time doesn't make them delusional, it means that they think he might have what it takes to get the job done, and are willing to see what happens.

I don't understand why opposing fans think they "know better", when Irish fans have a proud and distinguished history of identifying and shitcanning loser coaches all by themselves. Yes, everybody is grumbling, and rightly so -- we're 1-7. But the fact the Irish fan base hasn't turned on Charlie yet should be seen as instructive, not delusional. Clearly the jury is still out.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:37 pm | #

Mr.Maize - LOL! But I still don't think conference affiliation guarantees a strong schedule except in years where you have uncommon balance, as maybe this year in the SEC and the last two years in the Big Ten. And sorry to be wrong about WMU - but take me back here - didn't it take a UM 4th quarter rally to beat them a few years back? they're like Air Force - they ave put together some good teams some years.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:38 pm | #

@ jay -

i think (and i speak only for myself here), it's more about calling out ND for giving weis that massive extension a season and a half ago, which many people at the time said was undeserved.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:39 pm | #

Jade,

I was also addressing it to Doug. You might recognize that name as it's the one right after yours in the first line of my post. He was the one who was talking about the ranking.

Jim K,

Wasn't one of the reasons that ND refused to release Demetrius Jones is the fact that they were scheduling Northern Illinois? You know, the team that lost to Eastern and Western Michigan so far this year.
mrak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:40 pm | #

it's more about calling out ND for giving weis that massive extension a season and a half ago, which many people at the time said was undeserved.

The extension was based, in large part, on the desire to keep the NFL from hiring Weis away. You might recall the gossip -- the Giants were fed up with Coughlin and were going to hire Weis, etc.

Wasn't one of the reasons that ND refused to release Demetrius Jones is the fact that they were scheduling Northern Illinois? You know, the team that lost to Eastern and Western Michigan so far this year.

You are mistaken. Notre Dame is not scheduling Northern Illinois.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:42 pm | #

[quote]However, I would like to see the naysayers point to another coach who, without any relevant previous head coaching or college coaching experience, lead an incredibly high-profile team to levels of comparable achievement.[/quote]

Marvelous. Those dastardly naysayers are supposed to name a coach with no (1) college coaching or (2) head coaching experience who's had Weis' level of success. Oh, wait, you narrow the criteria further: he's had to lead a (3) high-profile team, too.
I suggest you name some coaches who's met (1), (2), and (3), and we can examine their "levels of achievement." I suspect Weis might be the most successful of the bunch, for a fairly obvious reason.
Alex | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:42 pm | #

Mrak -

Could be about ND-NIU, but it's not on the schedule that I've seen. But thanks to Kevin White, we do have SDSU and Nevada and will soon be like every one else...
JimK | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:43 pm | #

Jay,

Agreed. Now why we have a history of hiring terrible coaches is another matter altogether. Prior to Weis (and obviously his label as a success or failure is not yet written), ND whiffed on 4 of its last 5 coaching hires.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:43 pm | #

mrak,
the word 'fan' is short for fanatic, if we were rational about our rooting interests we'd all be 'rats'.
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:43 pm | #

JimK - absolutely not, and in fact this year's big 10 is the perfect example of how a weak conference can help get an undeserving team to a big bowl game. i just think that, more often than not, that is not the case, and the big 10 schedule has generally been pretty tough to get through.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:44 pm | #

DJ,

That was the speculation on this blog (at least in the comments) and thus justification for the practice.
mrak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:44 pm | #

did weis make his "i'll leave ND when i die or get fired" comment before or after the extension?
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:47 pm | #

That was the speculation on this blog (at least in the comments) and thus justification for the practice.

I'm aware of the speculation. I also am not aware that Notre Dame is playing NIU in football any time soon. I am also aware that NIU did not have any free football scholarships for Jones, and that even with in-state tuition, he would be stuck with a semester's tuition, room, and board. I am also aware that Jones made his aborted move to NIU without telling anyone, even his roommate and closest friend on the team.

It was not a good situation, but it seemed to end up all right for all concerned, which is all that matters.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:49 pm | #

did weis make his "i'll leave ND when i die or get fired" comment before or after the extension?

Before, during, and after, although not necessarily in those exact words. He said when he took the job that this would be his last job, and that he wanted to coach until his son graduated. This off-season, he noted that he had dropped a whole lot of money into the new house, as well as the nearby residential center for assisted living for adults with special needs, where his daughter will presumably live when she gets old enough.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:53 pm | #

Why are Michigan fans so passionately invested in this effort to "prove" that Weis is a bad coach.

There are a lot of people out there who hate Notre Dame and Weis, but for some reason it's mostly Michigan fans who expend massive amounts of mental and emotional energy in the worthless enterprise of assessing from afar the merits of a man whose efforts have no direct bearing on the program they purport to follow.

Notre Dame fans may have opinions about Pete Carroll, or Lloyd Carr, or any number of rival coaches, but you don't see Notre Dame fans writing lengthly, ill-informed diatribes about how stupid or arrogant those coaches are 5 weeks after we've played them.

You have your own program to worry about. Why do you obsess over ours?
NDpat99 | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:55 pm | #

I'm not defending him at all, nor criticizing the university for their position. My post was going to my original point that in many fans' eyes, ND can do no wrong.

Losing in a blowout? Well, we didn't lose to a 1AA team.

Not letting a player out of his scholarship after he claims he was misled? Well, maybe we were possibly going to schedule Northern Illinois
mrak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:57 pm | #

This seems like a lot of words to make such a poorly constructed argument.

It seems the primary defense of Weis is that he lacks experience. Since when is not being qualified an acceptable excuse for a major program like ND? If you admit he isn't qualified to be a coach, is a work-in-progress, and learning on the job, well then he is indeed probably the worst coach in football.

The next point of contention is that Weis will improve as he learns. There is no evidence for this, its just an assumption. Regardless, Chait's point isn't that he will be the worst coach 2,3, or 5 years from now, its that he is the worst coach NOW. No real argument is made to refute this, just excuses and baseless predictions.

So quibble with details, or bring up trivial comparisons to Michigan. Lash out in any direction you can...or face the reality of the situation - a horrible failure of a coach and many more years of mediocrity on the way.
Mat | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:57 pm | #

"Simply put, Weis has been a success at every level of his coaching career, including stints coaching special teams and defenses. "

What this article completely neglects is Charlie Weis couldn't develop Rick Mirer, a ND QB, and a #2 selection in NFL Draft. So, Weis hasn't been a success at every level.

Here is a google cache link to the article in BGS.. yes BLUE GRAY SKY during the coaching search...
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=ca...lient=firefox- a

I couldn't find the original article because blogspot has been throwing an error, the most likely of the causes probably is someone deleting the said article.


You can hide facts to support your hypothesis, but you are just fooling yourself.
Benny Lava | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:58 pm | #

Benny, the article's still there in the archive. I'm not sure why you're having problems finding it, but the problem's on your end, not ours.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:00 pm | #

Sorry.
Benny Lava | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:00 pm | #

Why Michigan fans care? It is in their interest for ND to be as successful as possible every week that they don't face the wolverines. ND's collapse is embarrassment to midwest football, an embarrassment to the oldest rivalry in college football, and embarrassment to the big 10 (because they rely on you for premium out of conference matchups).
Mat | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:01 pm | #

You're sort of missing the point of the Mirer post, too. But whatever.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:02 pm | #

Mat, it's not enough that we're embarrassing ourselves, but we're cheapening Michigan as well? Oh, the humanity.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:03 pm | #

Mat, the thrashing OSU took against Florida and Michigan losing to a 1AA team is not an embarrassment to midwest football?
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:04 pm | #

Speakirish:

Your post was great. Thank you.
Ted | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:05 pm | #

Northwestern lost to a 1AA team last year, Michigan and Minnesota this year, but by damn Notre Dame having a historically young team struggle, now that is an embarrassment to midwest football.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:06 pm | #

You're sort of missing the point of the Mirer post, too. But whatever.

Yeah, I'll say ...
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:06 pm | #

@ND Pat 99

Because this is a big rivalry, and we like to argue/talk trash. Too often fans on both sides take a "don't pick on me attitude," forgetting that this is part of the rivalry.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:07 pm | #

NDPat,

"You have your own program to worry about. Why do you obsess over ours?"

I'm not obsessing about your program anymore than I obsess about college football in general. I read this blog, along with blogs and message boards that concentrate on Texas, USC, Michigan, Florida, Arkansas, WVU and other teams. I rarely comment on any. There are rabid fans on every board and blog. However, nowhere do I find the arrogance as I do from Notre Dame fans. I read about fans calling for their coach's heads on sticks or lamenting that their players have given up, but usually these fans don't feel like they still have to be better than anyone. I doubt I'll ever see a Mountaineer fan say, after getting dominated by Marshall, "well, at least we didn't lose to New Hampshire."
mrak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:08 pm | #

and NW's always been an embarssment to midwest football, save 1995.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:09 pm | #

mrak, you dont know many WVU fans then.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:09 pm | #

Hmm.. I'm just refuting "Simply put, Weis has been a success at every level of his coaching career, including stints coaching special teams and defenses. "

Weis couldn't develop Mirer. Weis was probably was OK - and yes, he was fortunate enough to be around the right players.
Competent.. yes.
Success at every level. Heck no.
Benny Lava | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:09 pm | #

Mr. Dennison -

Why associate with someone with which you hold such contempt?

Move along and you will not be missed.
j hitach | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:10 pm | #

And enlighten me on the point of Rick Mirer post.
Benny Lava | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:11 pm | #

Benny Lava,

The only thing the Mirer point shows is that Weis didn't have success at everyTHING. He was pretty damn successful at the professional LEVEL.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:11 pm | #

Thank God Charlie Weis was lucky enough to happen to be around Vinny Testaverde the one time in his career he happened to be pretty good.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:13 pm | #

And enlighten me on the point of Rick Mirer post.

I took it to be largely tongue in cheek. If that was an argument against hiring Weis, then it's the worst argument I've ever seen.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:14 pm | #

John, dont try to argue with a Michigan Man, they are a proctologist's dream. You know,the proctologist called today, he found your head.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:16 pm | #

@ Doug

It's refreshing to hear an ND fan talking trash, even if you suck at it.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:18 pm | #

Maize, tell me again what that stench is on the corner of Stadium and Main on a Saturday afternoon in the fall?
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:20 pm | #

"There are rabid fans on every board and blog. However, nowhere do I find the arrogance as I do from Notre Dame fans."


That's because you're visiting the trashy, dumbed-down public university blogs. Duh.
highnoon | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:21 pm | #

Doug - could be jimmy clausen shitting himself... i'm not really sure.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:23 pm | #

or were you going more for the "lowly, protestant, proletariat scum" angle?
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:25 pm | #

Ah. semantics.

"Thank God Charlie Weis was lucky enough to happen to be around Vinny Testaverde the one time in his career he happened to be pretty good."

Really..? And his ankle injury wasn't responsible for Vinny's fading from glory? You are making the same mistake as Jon Chait by assuming that.
Benny Lava | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:27 pm | #

"That's because you're visiting the trashy, dumbed-down public university blogs. Duh."

Ha! That was great.

J Hitach,

Rest assured, I actually hate very few people. I just find a certain irrational attitude irresistible
mrak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:30 pm | #

All right. Here endeth the thread. Let's wrap this up.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:35 pm | #

Maize, it is the unmistakable stench of 100,000 assholes. I cant take credit for that one, even though it is good. Comes from a Michigan State fan.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:35 pm | #

oh come ON. you at least could have gone with "what's the difference between michigan stadium and a porcupine?" (a porcupine has 100,000 pricks on the OUTSIDE). that one gets me every time.
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:39 pm | #

There are plenty of embarrassments to Midwest football. Notre Dame is just the highest profile one. (Although Appalachian State is a bigger individual embarrassment, thats a blip compared to the sustained incompetence that is 2007 ND football.) The rest of the country would probably respect your unyielding devotion to Weis were it not for how Willingham was booted.
Mat | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:43 pm | #

Benny,

Check out Testaverde's career stats (even the years when he was coached by Belichick). One year will stand out like a sore thumb and it just happens to be the year his offensive coordinator was Charlie Weis.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:43 pm | #

Mymy - leave for an hour and look what pops up on BGS.

There are actually a couple of irreducible minima here (I refuse to us the -hrase "bottom line"). a) Notre Dame is at an historic level of awfulness, not only for itself and its tradition, but it also could end up as the statistically least successful offense in the history of major CFB. b) CW as coach is responsible to some degree (insert your favorite percentage here) for it.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:46 pm | #

Mat,

I wish Willingham nothing but the best. But if he had stayed another season or two at ND, we'd have another two or three years (at least) of this horrendousness.

It astounds me that people take offense to his firing.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 4:59 pm | #

(and obviously his label as a success or failure is not yet written)

Apparently it has...

http://www.amazon.com/New-Gold-S...93432194&sr=8- 1
SBHomer | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:01 pm | #

"a) Notre Dame is at an historic level of awfulness, not only for itself and its tradition, but it also could end up as the statistically least successful offense in the history of major CFB."

Oregon had 465 rushing yards against Huskies. 192 more than ND all season.

Anyway, a guy who sent a message "it's X's and O's time" clearly needs to take a bit of a humble pie. Instead he goes "laugh all you can now".

Jay, does that mean a NDNation-esque comment thread nuke ?
Benny Lava | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:04 pm | #

Mat, Willingham was booted because he didnt work. Had they allowed him to remain, ND would not have played in any bowl game the last two years, would have been in the same predicament as this year with more to follow. Next year will be a much truer test of Weis' coaching abilities. Did Weis make mistakes this year? Many. Is Willingham totally to blame for this lack of production? Somewhat. Had ND allowed him to remain for the remainder of his contract then this first year coach would be in a very similar situation without the young talent pool that is accumulating for perhaps future success. Why do you think that guys like Meyer and Petrino turned down ND? They saw the writing on the wall. Weis didnt think that it would be this bad. I dont think that anyone here is praising CW as a great coach, in fact many fans are questioning his style and now qualifications. Do you honestly think that any coach would want to step into this pressure cooker next year? You fired a guy who took you to two straight BCS games and then struggled with an extremely inexperienced team while still attracting the attention of some serious high school talent and has been a proven winner on the ultimate football showcase? I dont think anyone is unyieldingly devoted to Weis. We do believe he has coaching talent, but he is on a choker collar right now. No drastic improvement next year and we wont care who he recruits. We are just not throwing him under the bus, totally, right now. JimK,I would say right now Weis is about one third responsible, with Willingham and the schedule the other two-thirds. No one of our first 8 games has a losing record. All are fairly veteran teams and we could have won 2 more games, possibly. Weis made a lot of mistakes this year, but I have said before that a coach gets way too much credit for a win and way too much blame for losses. Charlie has yet to make a play that gave us a win or a loss.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:15 pm | #

So I was one of the intrepid 5-7 prognosticators. Never have liked kool aid - too sweet and look what it did to all those nice people in Jonestown!

That having been said, I want sooooo badly to believe that you are right. Not b/c I want the blow hard that is the Great and Powerful Woz to succeed. But rather b/c I love our alma mater and if he doesn't, I don't know how we will find anyone else who will even give it a try.

But here is the flaw in your argument. ("He missed it, and the team is paying the price for that error this year.") CW missed the fact that our players didn't have great fundamental skills. The same CW that hasn't missed a detail in 3 years at Notre Dame. Think of standing behind the Navy team, visiting the SoCal locker room, pass right and the list goes on and on.

He comes to work at 430a every morning and by his own description he works harder than anyone else in order that the details won't get missed.

And yet he misses the detail that our young players cannot punt, pass or kick; oh and throw in tackle, shotgun snap, defend the pass, contain the corner, pick up the blitz and avoid hopelessly foolish personal fouls. Are there any Football 101 skills that I have forgotten? Because surely they should be included on my list.

No, it defies common sense to argue that he missed that detail. Unless you believe that he was spending too much time on the road shilling for his charity.

Finally you suggest that there is evidence that CW has seen the error of his ways and has begun to take steps to correct the problem.

Again the record does not support this conclusion. I was sitting behind the home bench during the MSU game when he sent TT and AS into the game as the goal line package. The same TT who is regularly tackled by a modest gust of wind and AS that is remarkably adept at plugging a hole.

As the murmur of discontent started to rise up in the stands I swear a cartoon bubble appeared above CW's head. And in the bubble it said: "...I am to smarter than all of you. I am to a genius. I will never bow to the amateurs on NDNation who say that TT and AS should not see the field. I am the great and powerful Woz!..."

And what about deferring after winning the coin toss? Finally in the 8th game of his third season - with our offensive ineptitude more evident than the cowardice of a French infantryman - he decides to defer. Sorry Woz, you should have made that change in strategy for the Ga Tech game. And all of us amateurs knew it.

No, unfortunately, CW is too arrogant and too certain of his brilliance to learn - at least at a pace that any of us will want to accept.

So, believe me. I want you to be right. But just as I thought 5-7 was a stretch, I think we will be back here this time next year trying to figure out where to go next for a head coach that can stand the test that is Notre Dame. I hope I am wrong.
chris | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:17 pm | #

Ah, Big 10 football where tOSU plays 3 non con games without leaving the great state of Ohio to play those powerhouse teams from Youngstown, Akron and who, Kent State? Makes me understand why that tee shirt was selling like hot cakes in Gainesville, FL this spring. You know the one that read " THE Ohio State University, property of the Florida Gators".

A real power conference that Big 10!!
Knoxville Irish | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:19 pm | #

it's sort of hard to knock the big 10 when you've lost to three of their teams, only one of which has a shot at winning the conference. no?
MaizeNotYellow | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:22 pm | #

1-7 is still the bottom but at least the bottom is solid and you no longer have to build and borrow on another man's foundation. The irish should be a very good football team in 2 years.
rem | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:22 pm | #

Maize unfortunately we lost to three big ten teams, none of which has a shot to win the conference.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:26 pm | #

You guys are 0-1 in the Southern conference
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:27 pm | #

SoCon Standngs:
Wofford 4-1
The Citadel 3-1
Elon 3-1
Georgia Southern 2-2
App St 1-2
Furman 1-2
MICHIGAN 0-1
Western Carolina 0-5
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:34 pm | #

Doug, you lost to the team that lost to Appalachian State 38-0...with a their true freshman back-up QB at the helm...curious time for bravado
Keep Returning to Glory ND | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:34 pm | #

no bravado there, Keep, hard to believe you MIGHT win the Big Ten and finish next to last in the SoCon.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:38 pm | #

and you are going to finish last in the B10...what's your point? I will take the App St. loss over a 1-9 stretch with an average margin of loss at 24pts any day of the week.
Keep Returning to Glory ND | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:39 pm | #

Doug,

Keep in mind that by your logic ND is likely to finish last in three different leagues, not including the independents.
mrak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:40 pm | #

their true frehman QB, their Oultand and Lombardi finalist OT, experienced line, Biletnikoph finalist wide receiver, Heisman trophy candidate running back......that same freshman QB?
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:41 pm | #

"In fact, the Patriots haven't won a Super Bowl without Weis, and if I were a shortsighted columnist with an agenda, I could skew that to suggest that the Patriots couldn't win the big game without him, and that the organization has been exposed since his departure."

Are you taking crazy pills? That sort of analogy is exactly why the rest of the world thinks ND fans are the most delusional homers in the universe. The Patriots "fell" down to almost getting to the Super Bowl. The analogue here would be if Weis was set to end the year just barely missing yet another undeserved BCS bid, not 1-7.
M1EK | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:43 pm | #

Which one did you prefer Doug?

2002's RETURN to Glory? http://www.amazon.com/Return-Glo...93434526&sr=8- 2

or

2005's? RISE to Glory?
http://www.amazon.com/New-Gold-S...93434609&sr=1- 3


The real question is what kind of glory will there be next time ND wins a few ball games in a season...funny how your program needs a new book and catch-phrase every time you don't suck. How the mighty have fallen...
Keep Returning to Glory ND | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:44 pm | #

You can spin that anyway you want. Take your choice, but mighty Michigan losing to a D1aa team and if you really would rather lose to a D1AA team than be mired in a 1-9 slump that is your choice. We can come out of that slump, you will forever where that moniker.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 5:47 pm | #

You know, I've always wondered why Notre Dame fans are so willing to overlook Charlie Weis' abysmal performance this year and support him no matter how many times he leads their team to sheer embarrasment on the field. Then it hit me: Most Notre Dame fans don't care about any particular season. All they care about is the hope of a brighter future when they can "return to glory". It makes perfect sense! Why else would a college football fan care more about unreliable recruiting rankings than actual on-field performance? Its the promise of a brighter day that makes all the Domers feel good and this is why Charlie Weis fits so well! He's arrogant enough to keep making idle proclamations about the future despite never accomplishing any significant success in college football at all. I've always found it funny that anytime a Notre Dame fan wants to talk about how great their team is, its either about successes of the distant past or excitement about a future that is very unlikely to materialize. Never about what's going on today.

So, I've come to realize that the best thing for any opposing fan to do is to cheer on Charlie. While Weis and all his loyal minions hold up recruiting rankings as if they guarantee future success, we'll spend our time in the present, beating the crap out of every sorry excuse for a football team Notre Dame dares to put out on the field. No one is scared of Notre Dame and no one is scared of what it might become.

Sign him up for 20 more years. We'll take all the wins you want to give us.

38-0.
At least Lloyd knows when he s | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 6:00 pm | #

Michigan fans are wonderful.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 6:08 pm | #

It's amazing how many commenters here simply lack reading comprehension skills. I mean, after Pete's terrific post, 178 comments and such, and we still get people saying such inanities as

"You know, I've always wondered why Notre Dame fans are so willing to overlook Charlie Weis' abysmal performance this year"

I mean, seriously, did you even read anything anyone said before you posted this? Please tell me you didn't, because even I can't think Michigan is THAT bad a school.

Nobody is overlooking Weis's many mistakes and failures this year. We are just letting him try again next year because a lot of the other signs are positive. If you can't believe we would ever give someone a second chance, that's your problem. Not ours.
Kyle | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 6:41 pm | #

The post from Michigan fans are understandable. A team that has not won an NC outright in more than 70 years, a team that is the only 1A team to lose to a 1AA team and a graduation rate that's abysmal, a team that since the series with ND resumed in 1978, has more losses than wins and a team that once again will get its ass handed to it by OSU.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 6:47 pm | #

This would've been the perfect year for Weis to work on developing fundamentals and a running game. He did neither. I see no reason to believe he'll succeed in the future. But Go Irish anyway!
dr | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 6:47 pm | #

DJ; Nile Kinnick died when I was 1 1/2 years old. A training accident in the US Army Air Corp in the summer of 1943.
I was impressed with the way that young Brady Quinn responded to the amount of publicity & public scrutiny of his junior and senior years at "du lac."
This was no slight of the above mentioned Iowan.
I can't believe I just read about 75 posts of "My father is tougher than your father".
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 7:00 pm | #

PS. I can't think of another team in this country that would sell out it's football stadium of 82k+ for a 1-7 team..
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 7:22 pm | #

Notice the boston college peoples didn't show up here to bust balls like the skunkbear fans did.
bcuster | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 7:23 pm | #

Kyle,

Right on. It's hard to know what's more pathetic: fans of a 1-7 team who are (purportedly) unwilling to criticize their coach, or fans of another team with nothing better to do but say nasty things about their fans.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 8:26 pm | #

This is the height of delusion. Spectacular unintentional comedy. Thanks for a good laugh, Pete!
AWH | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 8:44 pm | #

John,

I just have to believe that a lot of this is the media's fault. For the 2 years they have been completely over the top with their criticism of Notre Dame, Brady Quinn, Weis, etc. It's almost hard to blame the vast majority of ignorant people who feel the way they do because they have been basically force-fed this stance from the media/ESPN.

On the other hand, if they want to be considered intelligent adults then they should look into things and learn about them before making judgments, in which case you CAN blame them.

Either way, you'd think you could at least READ the whole article before categorizing the author incorrectly.
Kyle | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 9:02 pm | #

Kyle:
You raise a superb point about the media. I really believe that many in the media truly dislike ND, at least in part, because of the NBC contract. From Musburger to Keith Jackson to Mark May to Terry Bowden to several others in the ABC/ESPN clan, ND is heavily criticized, rightly or wrongly. Heck, here in PA, St. JoePa (who is NOT a saint) trashed ND for being greedy at the same time he championed stadium expansion, sky box leases and total commercialization of Beaver Stadium in Happy Valley. What is sad is that some ND "fans" are like sheep--they blindly believe anything the talking heads tell them.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 9:10 pm | #

Kyle and Lush, great points.

AWH, are you talking about Pete's post, or the inane Irish-haters posting replies on it? I suspect I know the answer, but I feel I need to ask because I can hardly IMAGINE how any sane person could call defending a coach who won 19 games in two years against the claim that he's the "worst in the universe" a case of uninentional comedy.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 9:29 pm | #

Oh man! You can't buy this kind of entertainment. I love you ND fans. You're the best.
Ben | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 10:06 pm | #

At least Lloyd, I can imagine that App St and Oregon were really scared to come to Michigan Stadium. Tell us about the press conference LLoyd gave after the Oregon game, now that is a coach to be proud of truly. What was that made up boys name again?
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 10:29 pm | #

"It seems the primary defense of Weis is that he lacks experience. Since when is not being qualified an acceptable excuse for a major program like ND? If you admit he isn't qualified to be a coach, is a work-in-progress, and learning on the job, well then he is indeed probably the worst coach in football."

Exactly.

BGS - I always saw you guys to be fairly objective in your analysis - but this blog posting is just ridiculous.
Iresdisagree | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 10:31 pm | #

Haha.. Doug.. start a blog. Seriously man.
Johnny Drama | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 10:38 pm | #

Uh, stop right there.

Let's start with the Tom Brady bit, because Slate doesn't even have to respond to correct you. You say he was good around the time Weis was coaching; Tom Brady is clearly better since Weis left. I mean, did you *see* last Sunday? He tore a team apart. The Patriots offense was not nearly as explosive back then.

Two: If Ty's recruiting was so bad, why is Weis' team doing so, so much worse as they leave and are replaced with his? Saying "it's an astounding exception to an otherwise illustrious career" must concede that Ty, doing what he should have with what he had, did what he was supposed to do - and Charlie can't.

Three: Do you believe this team can beat Navy? If the answer is no, then why in blazes is this coach worth one hundredth of what you're paying him, let alone keeping, when every ND/Navy game you've seen in your lifetime ended with Navy losing?

Four: Saying Coach Weis' legacy is in flux leads, again, to Ty Willingham. Same timeframe. Better record for Ty. ND fired him based on results alone. Or was it, as many suspect, racist?
Nicholas Eckert | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:04 pm | #

So we should praise Weis for what he's done with such little college-coaching experience?

Does this mean we should also praise Gerry Faust, who came straight from high school?

That was unprecedented too, wasn't it Pete?

This excuse-making is pathetic. Please get your heads out of the sand, my fellow Domers.

Weis just ain't the man.
dr | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:17 pm | #

This was an interesting post. I tried wading through the comments, but got bogged down pretty quickly. I'd like to make a handful of points, however.

First, I have to admit my bias. I'm a Michigan grad and fan. But I have strong family connections to ND. As a result I'm one of those rare "root for ND unless they're playing Michigan" folk.

I agree that this year shouldn't be the ultimate judgment on Weis. It's true that this team, as led by Weis, has underachieved greatly. But two years ago the team overachieved under Weis. (Last year, with the schedule...it seemed just right.) Weis can coach a college football program, but I think the next 2 years will let everyone know exactly how well. I'm interested in the answer.

I think the emotions that are getting whipped up aren't about his ability; they aren't even about ND, per se. It's the fact that Weis is just not a very classy guy. When people who aren't very nice are humiliated in public it can't be a surprise that people are going to point and laugh. Loudly.

There's just too long of a laundry list of his transgressions to ignore. The flashing of rings; the quote about superior Xs and Os; the alleged refusal to abide by the gentleman's agreement between the Big Ten and ND coaches about recruiting kids that have already committed to one of those programs; the (albeit rumored, but there's way too much smoke to imagine no fire) allegations of promising starting spots to everyone and their grandmother; the oath never, ever to lose to Michigan State again; telling the media that the gastric bypass was only for health reasons then testifying on the stand that it was to make him a more attractive coaching candidate; the shrugging off of allegations of treating alumns and former players poorly with references to the fact that he's a "Jersey guy"; suing his doctors for complications arising from a surgery he insisted on rushing into; et cet. ad nauseum.

(The "Jersey guy" thing really baffles me. I've been there numerous times and everyone's real nice. Except the dudes from Bayonne. Shudder.)

I realize that, ultimately, whether Weis is an honest/nice/classy guy doesn't impact whether he's a successful coach. But I wonder -- are ND fans truly happy with that kind of personality as head coach? He's by far the most visible (no joke intended) person associated with the campus, but should he be? It's such a great program, with such wonderful history and part of a fantastic school. Every time I used to come to South Bend to visit the campus I thought "class." Now, when the words "Notre Dame" pop up I think "Cartman's grown up." (Slight exagerration, but not by much when a guy is making the not-so-mature "let them laugh now, we'll show them" type of comments.)

My general feeling is that ND could easily today find someone just as qualified and five times as classy as head coach. They deserve at least that. But they have Weis, and that's why the rest of the nation, including SNL, is laughing its head off. It's a shame, really -- weird timing, the Meyer thing not happening and a decision that White probably wishes he didn't have to make at that time given the dearth of attractive candidates. I'm not sure Weis would have even been seriously considered if that coaching search had taken place today.

Anyways, your mileage may vary. I hope that ND improves and does so relatively quickly. I think they're going to do that but what part of me wishes ND well also wishes it were with another guy at the helm.

Finally, Michigan fan hat on: Tom Brady was not a "co-starter" at Michigan. He was the sole starter for 2 straight years. Henson took snaps the second year but only until he looked real ugly against MSU. I know you guys appreciate accuracy in reporting, so I figured I'd mention it. ;) As far as him being a 6th-rounder, that's more a testament to the amazing non-powers of the NFL draftniks. Don't get me wrong -- I never imagined he'd win multiple Super Bowls. But I and my pals were shocked he slipped that much. I mean, he showed that he was accurate, smart and had a relatively strong arm -- what the hell else should they be looking for?

Anyways, best wishes.
Dave | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:35 pm | #

Nicholas Eckert - here are your answers.

1. Randy Moss.

2. Incoherent question. Can't answer.

3. Yes. But your question is valid.

4. Ty's legacy was in flux during his second season, which was his first bad season. He was canned when he couldn't turn it around the following year (his second bad season). Charlie's legacy is in flux during his third season (his first bad season). He will be canned next year if he has his second bad season. Sounds fair, doesn't it? There is no racism.
Gallaher | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:47 pm | #

Where would U of Michigan quarterbacks be if they didn't have Notre Dame grads as coaches? NFL Europe? Carr would have been gone if he had lost to ND this year. I'm glad that he will be around for the next few years so he can lead UM. So sad though that UM will be in ND's dust (and that UM had to share it's only NC with Nebraska).
Doc Possum | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 12:09 am | #

I just realized that on an earlier post I wrote that I though John Latina and Brain Polian should be fired. What I meant was: John Latina and Rob Ianello - the special teams coach - should be fired. My bad.
Aequitas | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 12:31 am | #

No, you are right with Polian. Ianello can stay, namely because he seems to have done a good job as recruiting coordinator. He also did a good job as WR coach with Shark and Stovall. There is no dedicated special teams coach, because it would seem Polian was deemed not capable of handling it.
IrishRugby | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 1:27 am | #

Dave,

That's quite a laundry list. For a guy who likes ND, you've sure got a lot of dirt on our coach. I follow the team pretty darn closely and had never heard many of those facts/rumors/innuendos.

But you're right that he shouldn't be judged on this year alone. He got dealt a bad hand, and has done a really, really, REALLY bad job of playing it. His first two years, he was dealt much better hands and played them with much more success. At best, the inverse could be said of Willingham (overall records aside).
John | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 2:08 am | #

Kyle and Lush, you two are a rare breed of college football fans today.

Your qualities of common sense and sobriety are refreshing and in short supply of ND fans.

Thanks to you both!
Erick | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 2:39 am | #

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlR...totoff& site=org

( scroll down)

"Now let them try to stop a pro-style offense. Let's see how they're going to do. They've had their advantage, because I came into recruiting late. But now it's X's and O's time. Let's see who has the advantage now." - Charlie Weis
Johnny Drama | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 2:44 am | #

Before some drop Coach Weis in the dumpster, some college coaches who have had superb success in the college ranks, not so in the pros.
Butch Davis
Pete Carrol
Reilly, Oregon State
Steve Spurrier
Lou Saban
Lou Holtz
Let's not forget the first year of Jimmy Johnson's reign in Dallas: 1-15.
I can only reiterate that I have complete trust that CW will get this corrected.
What coach is worth his salt who doesn't think he can out X & O the opposing coach. A reminder that the two mentors of Coach Weis, Parcells & Belichik are not shrinking violets when it comes to their professional persona.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 5:43 am | #

This has been the most excruciating football season that Irish fans have ever endured. The offense has been supernaturally bad. It's Charlie's fault, there's no way around it.

But it's premature to pass final judgment. At the very least, he'll be around next year. We might as well wait and see.

When evaluating Charlie's skill, it's worth recalling his rise through the Parcells and Belichick organizations. Those coaches are successful because they find, hire, and promote talented assistants.

Both coaches worked with Charlie over many seasons in a variety of roles. They evidently valued his insight and judgment, and considered him good at what he did. He started as a freelancer evaluating film and ended up as offensive coordinator of a Super Bowl champion.

Were they deluded in their estimations? I don't know. But when it comes to coaching, I'll give the edge to Bill Belichick over Jonathan Chait.
lyle | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 6:51 am | #

While CCW is definitely not the worst coach in the universe, he seems to be far from competent at this point.

Everyone wants to talk about recruiting - and that is important. However, Top 5 classes mean squat when you don't coach 'em up. Look at UGA when we had Goff and Donnan - Top 10 classes every year and Top 5 more often than not - where did it get them? 0 SEC titles and a bunch of 8 & 9 win seasons followed by a middling bowl. Will you guys be satisfied with that? That is where you are headed.

Spurrier always said that we always seemed to get better talent than the Gators, but never seemed to beat them. Why? Poor coaching. No fundamentals. We had a 24 game lead in the Florida series before Spurrier - since then we have lost 15 of 17. Recruiting stats don't win games - coaching does.

CCW is a smart guy, and an offensive whiz no matter what people say. But if he can't surround himself with great assistants who are also great teachers, he won't go anywhere. The 2 BCS bowls that you went to proved that the teams you sent were mostly hype. The fact that they got there is a testament to the players. The fact that they got blown out each time is an indictment on the coaches.

Hopefully CCW will get it turned around. His love of the University and what it stands for will drive him to succeed. Football needs the Irish to be great and relevant. It's part of what makes the college game the great sport that it is. Best of Luck Irish. I don't think you'll be down long.
CLTDawg | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 2:46 pm | #

This piece was pretty good until you got to the Willingham part. According to you, ND wisely fired Willingham because he was "settling into mediocrity" but Charlie's OK even though his 3rd-year team barely even *aspires* to mediocrity. Even for all of you who seem more interested in recruiting class rankings than W-L records, Ty's "mediocre" classes were ranked in the 30s and 40s, and under Weis they are playing in the 100s as the Slate article demonstrates. This team is rock bottom in almost every offensive category. Sure, Charlie's getting some prized recruits now -- in part because he can promise them they'll start as freshmen because he hasn't recruited anyone to play in front of them.
RH | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 3:13 pm | #

Saying "get your shots in now" is not being arrogant, he has confidence in what is building from this and yes, I feel they better get their shots in now.

Doug

I generally agree with your post except this part. I think there is a difference between saying things and achieving them. Charlie also talked about putting "nasty" in the team. I still have not seen that in 3 years. I am holding judgement on this statement until next year. The bottom line is I have to see it to believe it.
GB | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 3:28 pm | #

Look, no one's saying this season's a good one. But it's understandable. Inexperience + brutal 8-game stretch against 5 top 20 defenses = a very bad opening to the season.

Hal

I think we are giving other teams a little too much credit. ND averages 187 yPG. I would guess the average team would get 350 YPG. The difference is 163 YPG. As of now before today's games are being played, most teams have played 7 games. We just handed each team 23 YPG just by playing us. No wonder so many teams we played are "top" defenses.
GB | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 4:41 pm | #

RH,

For the umpteenth time, the difference between Weis and Willingham at this point is that Willingham had TWO mediocre seasons under his belt, and Weis has had one (so far) awful one - which could, btw, end up the same as Willingham's second one. That's why Willingham counts as having "settled in" to his mediocrity, while the jury is still out on Weis. Why is that distinction so incomprehensible? Is it really that absurd to refuse to throw a coach under the bus for one season, no matter how awful?
John | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 5:44 pm | #

John:

My point is not so much that it's time to throw Charlie under the bus, but that we were too quick to throw Willingham under the bus. (That's why I said the piece was pretty good up to the Willingham comparison.) Not that I thought Willingham was a great coach either, but I don't understand this idea that Weis deserves the benefit of the doubt but Willingham did not.

I take it from your last post that you would be willing to turn on Weis if he turns in a "mediocre" performance next year, because that would be two bad years in a row. But of course that won't happen. Expectations are so low right now that a 5-6 performance in 2008 will light up these boards with praise for how much ND has "improved" by getting back to where Weis started from.
RH | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 8:02 pm | #

ND81: Thanks for your initial comment; it says everything I want to say that is substantive.

FWIW, those who wish to see Chait in action need only to watch some of his video clips on bloggingheads.tv. He is the most smug and irritating man I can think of.
Klug | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 8:12 pm | #

If Charlie can lose about 150 pounds, I say he's got a start on becoming a good leader and motivator.

Otherwise, he's just an old man who looks like he's wearing a diaper.
Danny Olchin | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 8:16 pm | #

RH,

I think you're completely wrong to think that there won't be a HUGE number of Irish fans clamoring for Weis's head if he turns in a .500 season next year. I obviously can't say whether he actually would be fired, but in the eyes of many of us - myself included, for sure - five or six wins next year, after the debacle that this season has been and given the talent he'll have on the field and the huge drop-off in strength of schedule, will be FAR from the sort of improvement we're demanding.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 9:11 pm | #

Dave,

I think you make many fair and objective points. The Weis bravado perhaps was an acceptable change from TW's insipid personality and aloofness for a lot of ND fans but it is only tolerable when you are winning and you can walk the talk. When you make feeble comments about getting your laughs in now it is classless and I think you hit on a good point that has not been raised on ND blog sites - CW does't lend himself to being a classy guy. I was brought up in NJ and with the mindset that a braggart is classless is when he is backing it up but pathetic when he isn't.

In my gut I feel Weis will not prove to be a good coach when it is all said and done. I would love to be wrong.

3 years into his coaching tenure at the college level and he is not able to discern his team's talent level, their strengths/weaknesses, his assistants capabilities, and the appropriate practice regimen reflects a MONUMENTAL lack of judgement. This is compounded by supposed reports that former ND football coaches were pointing out that he was heading for a big mistake with his appraoches. It smacks of either ego and/or ignorance.

That by itself lends significant doubt he has the skill set to put ND at the level fans expected (i.e., top 10) even if he is a top recruiter.

I also have serious concerns about certain players he continues to play when they continue to make the same mistakes and in some cases cost ND games (not necessarily this year because the games were not close but sill the mistakes continue from said players). His routine comments that he plays the best player available at a particular position regardless if he is a senior or a freshman seems to be contradicted routinely. If he is doing this then I have concerns about his assessment of players talents and performances. I hope he has had not made promises to start players before they have earned the right in practice, etc.

ND fans are counting on his work ethic and intellect to be able to extricate himself from this hole. I think his ego and his inability to motivate his teams with the passion routinely seen in dominant programs will make this comeback very challening.

I believe next year will be the litmus test - though I think the next four games this year will be a precursor of next year. If ND should lose next week I will be even more pessimistic about him being the answer that ND fans have been hoping for. This will be another indication that regardless of the level of talent he brings in it will routinely be underperforming to that level on the field.

Again, I would love to be wrong about CW because as an ND fan I have been waiting a long time for ND to rise out of its mediocrity. Nothing this season has given me hope that there is something to build on from a coaching perspective.
PZ | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 9:13 pm | #

John -- the only alleged items on my list are the "gentleman's agreement" and the "promise to start" rumors. The former is obscure but I've heard about it for awhile and how Weis (as well as Tiller) have flouted it. The latter allegation is something that's floated around the Internerd for awhile -- e.g., Demetrius Jones's quote: "When I heard Jimmy was the No. 1 all the way through spring and that the only thing that was keeping him out of the lineup was his surgery, well that's not what I was led to believe going into the summer." As for everything else, it's common knowledge or can be sourced pretty quickly.

PZ -- we agree that next year will be huge. I'm probably a little more sanguine about Weis's prospects than you, in that (a) I think he's probably going to learn from this awful year; and (b) how can it get worse? But, like you, I don't really quite understand why Weis has gotten so much leeway from the fanbase/blogosphere for his boorish behavior. He's the stereotypical fat, lawsuit-happy braggart ugly American -- Bernard Henri-Levi is probably breathlessly writing a book about him even as we speak.

When Charlie Weis says "I won't talk about this game" or "go ahead and laugh now" or "we won't lose to MSU again" or, and this is one of my faves, "we could have scored against UM if we wanted to but I didn't want to get a garbage touchdown" -- wh...what? How do Irish fans, amongst the smarter and classier fans around, not want to scream? Michigan fans cringe whenever Lloyd gets gruff with a reporter, and that's pretty tame compared to the stuff that Charlie spews.

Anyways, I'll shut up now. Best wishes for the rest of the season and beyond, so long as you're not playing the maize n' blue.
Dave | Email | Homepage | 10.27.07 - 11:42 pm | #

Dave, that isnt what I heard from Weis after the Michigan game. I heard him say that it would have been disrespectful to Michigan to try to score after the way the game went. I dont know what interviews you listen to but they arent the same ones I heard. Tell me what players Weis continued to recruit after they committed to a Big Ten school? Also, how do you know that Jones was telling the truth about what was told to him. Look at how he left, and his remarks about Weis after their meeting didnt seem like he had any animosity toward CW. I know Charlie had an attitude and I dont think that he is the greatest public speaker around, but his boorish behavior? The man was left partially paralyzed from surgery(that is why he doesnt run out on the field) and I cant believe that the Kansas coach gets a pass about his appearance and Weis is labeled a fat ass. I didnt know that size had anything to do with coaching. I alos would love to know how Michigan fans can label ND fans as arrogant when the majority of outsiders and flamers who come to this site are from Michigan. Your arrogance shows daily here. You have nothing to hang your hat on this year. You were beaten by a 1AA team, made to look silly at home against Oregon, beat a very poor Notre Dame team, an equally poor Minnesota team, Eastern Michigan, squeezed by a Penn St team that got manhandled by Ohio St I almost doubt that we will be seeing you at the end of the season.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 12:30 am | #

Doug, I think we heard the same post-UM/ND game interview. You're bypassing his statement that ND -could- have scored if he hadn't chosen to be classy. Basically, anti-class. And I'm not entirely sure where I've been anything but complimetary towards ND fans -- if you can point to where I've said they're arrogant, please do so. Also, while you might be right that Jones is lying through his teeth, I don't think so. Finally, if you think Mangino is getting a pass as to his size...ha-ha.
Dave | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 1:16 pm | #

Dave, you paint a very grim picture of Charlie indeed. If he were all of that, and that alone, you can bet this blog would have called for his ouster long ago.

You ask why ND fans, whom you cite as among the more knowledgeable in college football, would continue to support -- or at least, be patient with -- such an ogre. Maybe you should try to answer that question for yourself, and see what you come up with.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 1:41 pm | #

In the meantime, let's fact check your laundry list:

1. The flashing of rings.

Yes, he does this.

2. The quote about superior Xs and Os.

A brash statement that he did make. It has not worn well this season, but keep in mind it was made in one of Charlie's first pressers after taking the job at ND. As stated by others in this thread, Charlie's confidence was a much-needed shot in the arm for a beaten-down Irish program at the time and such bravado was roundly welcomed and embraced, for better or worse. Speaking for myself, it was nice to hear a coach expressing confidence in Irish football for a change.

3. The alleged refusal to abide by the gentleman's agreement between the Big Ten and ND coaches about recruiting kids that have already committed to one of those programs.

I have never heard of a "gentleman's agreement" with regards to poaching recruits between the B10 and ND. Given what we know about how the B10 recruits negatively against ND, I find it hard to believe such a gentleman's agreement even exists, let alone was transgressed by Charlie. (And if such an agreement had existed, it was surely rendered moot when Carr poached David Terrell, Van Alstyne, Brandon Harrison, etc.) In any case, the only recruit who defected from the Big 10 for Charlie was Brian Smith, whose father attended ND. Smith always wanted to come to ND, but was never offered until Corwin Brown came aboard (he was a fit for Brown's 3-4 moreso than Minter's defense). If this is an egregious offense to you, you have quite the delicate sensibilty about big-time recruiting. Good thing you're not an SEC fan.

4. The (albeit rumored, but there's way too much smoke to imagine no fire) allegations of promising starting spots to everyone and their grandmother.

Forget the fire -- show me just a wisp of smoke here, and I'll believe you. Are you relying solely on Demetrius Jones' testimony for this? If so, I would consider the source. Do you really think Charlie has promised starting jobs to players coming in? This is so far from his well-established M.O. of playing the best player that I wonder what kind of smoke you're talking about, and if you might have inhaled some by mistake. While other criticisms of Charlie are certainly valid, this one baffles me.

5. The oath never, ever to lose to Michigan State again.

He may have said this, but you will not find it in print, because it is hearsay. It was allegedly a locker room speech to his team. Oh, the things coaches say to their teams to motivate them. There are also rumors of Charlie bragging about having never lost to Pete Carroll in the NFL (untrue) and how "he'd never lose to him again" (also untrue). There are rumors of him going on a tirade against Joe Tiller (as a reaction to a publicly-documented tirade Tiller went on about Weis). He is a brash man, there's no doubt. But this is par for the course in college football. If you think every college coach worth his salt doesn't engage in such histrionics behind closed doors, you're whistling past the graveyard.

6. Telling the media that the gastric bypass was only for health reasons then testifying on the stand that it was to make him a more attractive coaching candidate.

This doesn't reveal a character fault as much as you think it does.

7. The shrugging off of allegations of treating alumns and former players poorly with references to the fact that he's a "Jersey guy."

I've never heard the "Jersey Guy" quip offered as an excuse for these allegations, although the allegations are certainly out there and he has mentioned being a "Jersey Guy" many times. But I'm not sure why you've linked these together, because I've never heard him do so.

In any case, for every Bob Kuechenberg sniping at Charlie (which I assume you're referencing) there's a long queue of players who would claim the opposite. In recent months we've seen the return of luminaries like Joe Montana (never very connected to ND after graduation) and Alan Page to the program. He's invited former players back to campus for a multitude of events: as Blue-Gold captains, as part of a Lou Holtz celebration last season, for pep rallies, etc. Charlie's probably done more outreach to the legacy of ND players and has done more to connect the past to the present than anyone in the ND football program in decades.

8. Suing his doctors for complications arising from a surgery he insisted on rushing into.

Again, I'm not sure this is as revealing as you think it is. I'm not sure it was a good idea or not; but neither do you. I do know that any settlement he would have garnered was earmarked for Hannah and Friends. Maybe that doesn't shade your opinion of the case, but it's clear this wasn't a scheme to get rich quick, nor was it clearly a "frivolous" lawsuit.

9. et cet. ad nauseum.

Such as?

--------------

Lastly, for every criticism you raise, there are numerous anecdotes you ignore when painting the portrait of Charlie Weis. Congratulating the USC team in the locker room after the '05 game. Building the Hannah and Friends center in South Bend, and Charlie & Maura's dedication to the cause of special needs children. "Pass Right" for Montana Mazurkiewicz. Surely a man of such objectionable character would never have instances like these in his personal history. And I haven't even mentioned the numerous positives the man brings to the table with regards to football: smarts, a tireless work ethic, superior recruiting acumen, and genuinely caring about his players. The way he worked the phones for Darius Walker after Walker's Bears offer was rescinded; the time he carted some drunken alums home in his golf cart during reunion weekend. None of these anecdotes make it into the media's depiction (or the Michigan depiction) of the man. It's easier to dismiss him as an arrogant asshole, and leave it at that.

I guess you can color your opinion of Weis any way you want to. Feel free to take just the negatives. If all you see are flashing rings and bluster, that's your prerogative. After all, to you, he's reducible to a few bullet points, a medical malpractice lawsuit and a couple of half-baked rumors.

Anyway, sorry for the snarky tone, but your post set me off. Apologies.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 2:35 pm | #

Jay -- you misunderstand me. I understand why the ND fanbase isn't calling for his head. Where I'm left confused is why his repeated boorish behavior doesn't earn him any reproach from (generally) the fanbase. That's the question I need help with -- any answers you could provide would be appreciated.
Dave | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 2:58 pm | #

Let's look at the post-UM presser, since it is obviously a point of contention in this thread. The video is available on UND.com. I had to rewatch it to refresh my memory, since different people are remembering it different ways.

First of all, the presser is 25 minutes long and Charlie spends 95% of the time tipping his cap to Michigan, talking about how bad ND is, saying that ND doesn't have anything to hang its hat on, and explaining that they're going to go back to a training camp mentality to try and get back on track. The "could have scored" item is a 1-minute exchange in the overall presser, and I'm not sure why it has been seized upon by Michigan fans, other than as another possible cheapshot at Charlie's expense.

Anyway, here's the full exchange:

Q: Charlie, what would you say to someone who predicted that three games in you wouldn't have an offensive touchdown?

WEIS: I would have bet every penny I had that they'd be wrong, and I would have gotten wiped out. My wife wouldn't be talking to me and I'd probably be divorced right now. Hey, look - at the end of the game right there, I could have tried to throw for the end zone, but to be honest with you I think that's disrespectful to Michigan to do that at the end of the game. At the end of the game, I thought they were just trying to run it out, and when I got in that situation, I could have thrown it to the end zone and try to get a cheap score, but I thought it would have been disrespectful. I figured it's better just to go ahead and take your beating than try to get a garbage touchdown, when they're just trying to end the game. I think it's the class way of handling it.

Is that him saying he "could have scored"? Is that him being disrespectful to Michigan -- despite him thinking it was "the class way of handling it"? Dave?
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 3:10 pm | #

Hey Dave, best for you to get your facts a little straighter.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 4:12 pm | #

I forgot, thanks Jay.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 4:21 pm | #

To me Charlie is brusque and not arrogant. I think there is a difference. He has said or done some arrogant things on occasion. I do not think a few things define the man. Who has not said or done some arrogant things? I see arrogant statements on BGS everyday (on both sides). As Jay said, the more compassionate things he has done get lost in the headline. I might add his having the players pay respects to Navy's song after the Navy game. Maybe I take that back. It was arrogant of him to continuously receive the kickoff at the start of games. This season he ate some humble pie and deferred. He at least is a man willing to change.
GB | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 4:43 pm | #

GB, honoring Navy is a another great example that I thought of but forgot to include. Good call.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 4:46 pm | #

"However, I would like to see the naysayers point to another coach who, without any relevant previous head coaching or college coaching experience, lead an incredibly high-profile team to levels of comparable achievement."

Bob Stoops
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 6:49 pm | #

Nice revisionist piece. You could have simply said, "Weis has only been coach for 2 1/2 years" and everyone would understand.

But seriously, a bit worse than predicted this year? After eight games I am still unable to break out my genious response to Domers spelling Coach Carr's name LLLoyd all these years, you know cause he has 3 L's almost every year? When can I finally spell your coach's name WWeis? Can it possibly be AFTER the Navy game? This is an unimaginably bad team indeed, and the fundamental nature of its suckiness is buried deep inside the belly of Charlie Weis.

Sure, your team will improve with more talent and experience, like every college football team does, but the way things are going, you are probably losing more than half of your current bumber recruiting crop which will likely result in your blaming Weis' poor recruiting for your next coach's early struggles.

Of course, if any fan knows the importance of sticking together and staying supportive when expectations are not met, its a Michigan fan. So, hang in there. They can't possibly fail to improve soon.
brad | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 7:30 pm | #

Great call Brad, once again another Michigan fan who has no clue. Stay on your own site, what makes you think we are going to lose half of our recruits when we continue to get commitments from players the caliber of Floyd and Gray. Who cares if you cant spell Carr's name analyze your own team and where they are going. You guys havent accomplished jack this year yet and still have a way to go. They say that ND is overrated, they need to take a look at how Michigan gets rated, you want to talk about being overrated.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 7:48 pm | #

You guys stuck together really well when you cheered because Henne got hurt in the Oregon game and they had to go to Mallett. You booed your team voiciferously that game. The team stuck together, your fans didnt.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.28.07 - 7:51 pm | #

This seems like Charlie is a recent college grad trying to make his way in his life and career. Charlie, last anyone checked, is a grown (overgrown?) man! One who has just proved his arrested development.
CJ's Pub | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 12:13 am | #

Notre Dame should NEVER EVER have to suffer the consequences of hiring someone without an excellent history of success as a HEAD COACH. The ND AD is a frickin idiot. The Faust debacle taught ND nothing. Look at every great coach down through the years. All of them proved their chops as the HEAD COACH at smaller, less prestigious programs. They proved that they could RUN A PROGRAM.

Here's the point: at Notre-Freakin-Dame, you should NEVER be stuck with a guy who is learning as he goes. I mean...WHAT?!?
Dammit, hire a guy who has already learned all the hard lessons and KNOWS what the hell he's doing!!!!!
otherguy | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 12:39 am | #

NAVY. how's their recruiting class been lately?

"Notre Dame is dead last in the nation in total offense, averaging just over 187 yards per game. That means teams like Florida International, Akron and Temple rank above them. Navy, which doesn’t have a coach who owns a Super Bowl ring, is ranked No. 16 in total offense, averaging over 450 yards per contest."
Ventre, MSNBC
wheatstick | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 2:41 am | #

He really didn't need to change much as far as coaching goes those first two years, as all missteps were blamed on talent deficiencies and Rick Minter.

It's easy, a year-plus in hindsight, to see when the blame has been shuffled disproportionately. But it's much harder to see that process "in real time." Since so few fans have true insight into the internals of a program, one can easily make various assumptions to shift blame onto (or away from) any specific person -- depending solely on whether they are the "chosen savior" or "chosen goat."

A pessimistic fan could ask: How do you know that this entire many-thousand-word article isn't an exercise in the exact same sort of excuse-making, blame-shifting, and undue optimism that led you to predict a 9-3 record this year?
McFate | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 8:58 am | #

For all those of you lamenting the fact that Notre Dame shouldn't have hired a coach without any prior head coaching experience, who exactly would you suggest should have gotten the job? There never was a perfect candidate, whether he be lacking in head coaching experience, big time program experience, etc.

From the article written when Weis was hired:

Along with Weis, the Irish focused on Weis, Bills offensive coordinator and former Irish quarterback Tom Clements and Redskins defensive coordinator Greg Blache, a former Irish assistant.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/ne...tory? id=1943710
Pete | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 9:34 am | #

Pete has given a very interesting point. There weren't any reputable head coaches breaking down Fr. Jenkins' door to be the next head coach -- at least none reported in the media at the time. Apart from Urban Meyer, who had an interview with the Powers That Be In South Bend, I seem to recall several head coaches who quickly backed away from consideration [Belotti, Mike Reilly, the Denver Broncos head coach whose name escapes me at the moment, were three whose names came up and who quickly put out denials of interest].

There may have been other head coaches who were interested, but they didn't get any media attention to my poor recollection. I think the burden rests upon the critics here who say that ND should only have gotten an experienced head coach to come up with a name of someone who 1. had the requisite experience and 2. wanted the job. Plenty of people fit the first criterion, but I don't remember any one fitting the second in 2004-2005.
Fr. Brian Stanley | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 10:04 am | #

Fans spent a couple of years moaning and complaining about another quarterback - a guy named Tom Brady - and couldn't have been happier when Drew Henson was handed the ball.

Yeah, that's just not true. Halfway through the 1999 season, Michigan fans were begging Carr to stop putting Henson in during the second quarter of games (Henson never started ahead of Brady). And Tom Brady finished his Michigan career having broken pretty much every one of the school's passing records (many of which were broken soon after by three-year starter John Navarre). Brady finished his college career with an MVP performance in the Orange Bowl. Tom Brady was an excellent quarterback at Michigan, before Charlie Weis, and he's now the best QB in the NFL, well after Charlie Weis' departure.
Michigan Fan | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 11:35 am | #

Okay, so I said ND should've chose a successful HEAD COACH from a smaller program instead of Weis. (if you recall, guys like Holtz, Ara, Bo, and Tressel all succeeded at smaller programs before making the jump to the big time with the same sort of success.)
In the spring of 2005:
Brian Kelly, Head Coach of Central Michigan
Randy Walker, Northwestern (nobody knew he was going to have a massive heart attack)
Jeff Tedford, Cal Head Coach
Jim Grobe, Wake Forest Head Coach
Gar Pinkel, Missouri Head Coach (w/ success at Toledo prior to that)

All of these guys have proven they know how to build and maintain winning PROGRAMS. The only variable is that they'll get better athletes to compete against better opponents.
other guy | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 1:45 pm | #

Remember too, that Bobby Petrino's name was mentioned and he was approached and turned down the offer. Pretty much the same thing that happened when Willingham got hired, no one really wanted the job with established credentials. ND is a tough place to coach and it has become tougher over the years with the money involved and the tv contracts and the bowl games. I dont know of many coaches who would want to leave their present position to take over the ND job. Someone mentioned on another post that there are tons of good offensive and defensive coordinators who would love the opportunity. You complain about Charlie and then offer up another possible coordinator hire then say we need someone with head coaching experience. We could hire a guy like other guy said with the prerequisite experience, we did that a few years ago didnt we, Mr. Willingham. The game has changed so much since Ara, even Lou was on the sideline. Think about some of the well respected coaches mentioned at times, Jim Grobe, why would he leave Wake Forest where he is pretty much king right now, he continues going to bowl games and winning 8-10 games a year, they dont care if he wins the National Championship, same with Brian Kelley at Cincinnati,Tedford and Pinkel are in the same situation. We could try to hire Skip Holtz from Eastern Carolina, there is one who would love the challenge. ND is a unique place to coach, with no conference championship to play for, expectations to play in an upper tier bowl game and compete for the NC every year weighs heavily on a coach. All the coaches mentioned have conferences they can win in and that keeps the alumni happy.Besides who would want to have to put up with the alumni of this school. One bad year and they are ready to sell your house.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 2:41 pm | #

For the record, Petrino was never offered the job, although he did want it and ND did talk to him.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 2:49 pm | #

Faust was a great recruiter too.
WHG | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 4:10 pm | #

Doug, what the huh? If you truly believe the Notre Dame job is less appealing than Toledo, Missouri, Wake Forest, Northwestern, Central Michigan, or Cincinnati, then the Irish should just pack it in and set about becoming the next Princeton (a defunct football powerhouse from another bygone era).

I say fuck that. Notre Dame is an incredibly lucrative and high-profile job. If you are a winner, you can get an obscene amount of talent to come to South Bend. Tweak the schedule a little bit and BCS bowls should be pretty much the norm.

Weis was a mistake. An honest mistake. Too much emotion and credit was given to an alumnus. I'm am NOT advocating his firing. I say ND needs to take its lumps and if this guy can learn and grow and BECOME a good head coach.
My original point was that this type of growing pain should never have had to occur in South Bend. ND has a bad athletic director.
otherguy | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 4:49 pm | #

"Make no mistake about it, Charlie Weis has made some serious missteps leading up to and during this season. He overlooked the desperate need for fundamental development for this young team, working to add wrinkles and tweaks to his offense before the team had fully learned how to block, catch, run, and tackle."

You call that a misstep? I think teaching a team to block, catch, run, and tackle is more like your job description as a coach. I guess that means he isn't doing his job. Oh well, great to hear that ND is bringing in a LOAD of top-flight recruits. Too bad, when they leave ND they still won't know how to play football. What a waste of resources!!!
Truth Teller | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 5:16 pm | #

otherguy,

In the spring of 2005, here were the recent resumes of the coaches you would have preferred:

1) Brian Kelly - coming off a 4-7 season in his first year as head coach of Central Michigan.

2) Randy Walker - coming off a 6-6 year to give him a record of 30-41 at Northwestern.

3) Jeff Tedford - By far the best of the bunch. In the spring of 2005, he was coming off of a 10-2 record which gave him a career record of 25-13 at perennial doormat California.

4) Jim Grobe - Coming off a 4-7 season to give him a career record of 22-25 at Wake Forest.

5) Gary Pinkel - Coming off of a 5-6 season to give hime a 22-25 record at Missouri.

In the Spring of 2005, Weis had just finished coordinating an offense that had just won its third super bowl in four years. In his fifteen year NFL coaching career, Weis had been on the coaching staff of teams that had gone to five Super Bowls and six conference championship games.

For all I know, Weis may eventually be labeled a failure. In the spring of 2005, however, he had a better resume than all but one of the coaches you identified. You can argue that ND should have hired Nick Saban instead of Charlie Weis. You can't claim that ND should have hired Gary Pinkel because Pinkel is having a better year than Weis this year.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 5:22 pm | #

You misread what I was saying, Other guy. ND is the epitome of head coaching jobs, to some. Take Grobe for example, he is comfortable at Wake Forest, his style is good, they are playing good football and Jim Grobe is one of the nicest guys I have ever met. As long as he keeps the program clean, keeps competitive teams on the field, goes to a bowl game occasionally, has the kind of year he had last year and wins the ACC championship and graduates players, he has a long term job. If he went 8-4 annually at ND, went to an occasional big time bowl, would that be acceptable to the administration and the alumni. Does this make ND a more attractive job than Wake Forest to Grobe? Jay if Petrino was interested and so was ND, why isnt Petrino the head coach here now?
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 5:38 pm | #

Truth Teller, your post will be long forgotten when next year's recruiting class graduates in 2012.

Perhaps Weis will be a failure and be gone by then. Just maybe, they will have been in the thick of competing for 2 or 3 national championships under the direction of Charlie Weis.

One thing I will predict is that many Notre Dame FOOTBALL GRADUATES from that recruiting class will be in the NFL because they perfected their abilities learning how to block, tackle, and play football...in addition to earning their degrees.

You have already decided the recruiting class of 2008 will not know how to play football when they graduate. Can you help me buy stocks that will appreciate in value by 100% by 2012? I am fascinated by your ability to see the future.
Ted | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 6:40 pm | #

Truth Teller:
You have gotten some bad meds. Call your doctor, pal.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 9:41 pm | #

Along with Weis, the Irish focused on Weis, Bills offensive coordinator and former Irish quarterback Tom Clements and Redskins defensive coordinator Greg Blache, a former Irish assistant.

I mostly know head coaches in the NFL but few assistants. Out of curiousity, does anyone know how these guys are doing now?
GB | Email | Homepage | 10.30.07 - 1:53 am | #

BTW folks, I'm not sure if people have seen this, but Robert Hughes has been excused from the team to be with his family after his brother died suddenly: http://www.irishenvy.com/irishro...cused-from- team.

Keep him and his family in your prayers.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.30.07 - 4:03 pm | #

As a KU football fan, I must say Weis is not a fat ass. We certaily hope our coach can lose some weight so that his health will not be a problem down the road.

I am very amazed that there are not that many ND fans who wants Weis to be fired. Only time will tell if Weis is a good choice.

Well, I come here to find out what is wrong with ND football after reading the article on Slate. I mean, ND can't be that bad, right? Let's see what happens in the next few weeks. Good luck!
K.C Tee | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 1:17 am | #