Don't know how the scouting services work, but, how does the #3 running back in the nation only merit 4 stars??
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 1:22 pm | #

He is one of their 6.0 four-stars (sort of a 4.5 star if you will)

Congrats Jonas, glad to have you.

Some people don't seem to buy that he has that speed but he looks fast to me. Sort of the opposite of Darius - not very shifty but great power and some wheels once he gets going. Looks like an all-purpose back.
piyachi | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 1:26 pm | #

How about him having career ambitions that don't involve working on Sunday afternoons?

Seems like a good head on his shoulders.
irishru2 | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 1:38 pm | #

WEEZER refrences are delightful
bcnd | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 1:38 pm | #

Gabby - Not every position is evenly distributed and represented in the rankings. If the recruiting sites think there are a better collection of players at other positions then it affects where other positions fall.

For example, this year rivals has 28 5-star recruits (which I think is about the norm for them). Here's the position breakdown:

QB - 4 (including Crist)
RB - 2
WR - 3
OL - 7
TE - 1 (Rudolph)
DE - 2
DT - 2
LB - 2
DB - 1
Athlete - 3

Clearly this year OL is considered stocked with top guys, at least according to the rivals rankers. Interestingly, the last three years we've taken a look back at the consensus Top 50 players from past recruiting classes, it was OL that had the highest "miss" rate in terms of college production matching recruiting potential.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 1:43 pm | #

Pat et al:

Thanks for all you've shown us.
everloyal | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 1:43 pm | #

Clearly this year OL is considered stocked with top guys, at least according to the rivals rankers. Interestingly, the last three years we've taken a look back at the consensus Top 50 players from past recruiting classes, it was OL that had the highest "miss" rate in terms of college production matching recruiting potential.

Pat

That's interesting. Last winter I believe BGS had a post saying that the OL had the highest "hit" rate drafting in the pros.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 1:59 pm | #

I might be mistaken but I think Scout gives the top 50 players a 5* rating. I'm pretty sure I read that on IrishEyes some time ago. Stars really are meaningless. I believe that Justin Tuck came out of HS as a 2*.
Rome | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 2:00 pm | #

I had no doubt what the title of this post would be.
Mike | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 2:03 pm | #

I am amazed over the last two recruit commitments and the fact ND has apparently not lost any recriuts to wavering over the dismal play on the field. I wish the same could be said for the team members who have departed. Hope CW gets faxed letters from them all come February.
Subway Alumni | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 2:04 pm | #

Yes Mike, I am that predictable.

Anon - I'm trying to find the post you mention. Were you thinking of this post that compared post-season awards to eventual NFL draft spots?


Here are the three (2005, 2006, 2007) posts about the Top 50 recruits and how they did in college.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 2:18 pm | #

It will be nice to get the Blue album out for pre-game next year.
Greg | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 2:36 pm | #

Rome - stars are probably the best indicator of the class as a whole. If you look at ten schools that have signed the highest percentage of 4-stars from 2002-2007, 8 of them are also in the top-10 for winning percentage in the same time-frame (among BCS schools). The only exceptions are Florida and Florida State, who are both in the top ten in recruiting but rank 15th and 19th for winning percentage.

The top ten schools in % of 4-stars, 2002-2007:
1) USC 69%
2) Texas 64%
3) Florida State 63%
4) LSU 60%
5) Oklahoma 59%
6) Florida 58%
7) Miami 56%
8) Georgia 55%
9) Ohio State 55%
10) Michigan 54%

Also note that these teams have accounted for the last 8 and 10 of the last 11 championships.

FWIW, 37 of the last 47 commitments for ND were 4-stars are better. Only 7 of Weis' first 28 recruits were rated 4-stars or better, when he was forced to recruit for numbers. (Willingham went 16/52 in his time at ND).
Steve R | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 2:52 pm | #

This kid is good. If Michigan didn't already have Sam McGuffie, I'd be really pissed about losing him. Nice pickup.
Scott | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 3:03 pm | #

Considering the OL makes up just under 50% of the offense, you would think that would be reflected in the 5-star ratings.

Reminds me of the TMQ rants on ESPN.com about the lack of linemen in the NFL's HOF.

-Domer96
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 3:10 pm | #

Country Day perennially has a good football program. This is an exciting commitment, and it will be interesting to see how our still growing stable of young running backs vies for playing time over the summer.


"Gray said Notre Dame defensive coordinator Corwin Brown, however, kept in contact to see how he was doing."

Well we've known for awhile now what a great recruiter CB is... any mid-season grades on how he's doing as a coordinator? I'd say the Defense has really (pleasantly) surprised me most of the time. When the offense can give them a breather every now and then, they've really been able to overachieve a little. Not bad for having to adjust to a new system, and we'll be able to add even more wrinkles as the players continue to develop.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 3:16 pm | #

Pat -
Looking back on the Top 50 posts, it appears that great offensive linemen are made, not born, at least in comparison to the top players at other positions. It takes hard work and great coaching to make a great O-line, let's hope for a lot of both qualities in the years to come.
rays15 | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 3:32 pm | #

Off topic, but relevant to how news/culture magazines (in this case Slate) try to write about sports and end up making incredibly facile arguments. Also, BGS gets a mention on page 2. But I mean, if you're going to bash a program or a coach, there are much more nuanced and compelling ways to do it than this.

In other news, very happy about Jonas Gray. He's a great pickup.
highnoon | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 3:55 pm | #

P.S.

Defensive tackle Omar Hunter went from No. 159 to No. 56 in the Scout.com Top 300 ...
Diesel987 | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 3:58 pm | #

link is on the "homepage" in the above post, or here: http://www.slate.com/id/2176634/
highnoon | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:05 pm | #

If you consider what Illinois has been able to do with recruiting after several 2-win seasons...it should be less surprising that with ND such a feat is quite possible.
borromini | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:06 pm | #

Don't read the slate article. I've seen better writing on a restroom wall.

Congrats to BGS for the shout-out, though.
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:20 pm | #

Yeah, we're going to have those pre-season predictions thrown back at us for quite some time. Oh well, all that means is that people might not notice my earlier prediction of Kevin Washington as "class sleeper" when his class signed with ND.

Despite the lazy article (the writer is a Michigan grad is you're wondering about potential bias) he did get one thing right. My 9-3 prediction was based on the belief that the coaching staff would be able to compensate for the difference in experience levels between ND and their opponents. That and the fact that I'm an unrepentant, dyed-in-the-wool optimist. Next year we'll have to make sure the Blind Oracle chimes in in the pre-season post to help balance us out.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:32 pm | #

DCDomer, my point was that it's so bad it borders on unintentional comedy, much like the dramatic acting of Nicholas Cage. Also, the author is a michigan graduate. shocking.
highnoon | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:33 pm | #

The Slate article just goes to show that anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion. Typical uninformed dribble...
Keeping the faith | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:37 pm | #

The Slate article just goes to show that anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion. Typical uninformed dribble...

They do have the opportunity for comments, right? The author's colossal ignorance should be pointed out and pounded through his thick skull.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:48 pm | #

Very true, DJ, very true...
Keeping the faith | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:50 pm | #

You know, I could have predicted Notre Dame would start out 1-7, and then when we did, I could gloat and dance about bragging about how right I was about how bad our football team is.

But on the other hand, I don't get a lot of satisfaction out of predicting doom and defeat for my alma mater, nor do I gain much enjoyment from relishing in my own selfish accomplishments at the expense of Notre Dame's success.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:52 pm | #

Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Chait is a Michigan alum? Figures. Then again, considering he writes at Slate (does anyone go there anymore?), I should have had a better idea of his lack of ability...
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:53 pm | #

"That and the fact that I'm an unrepentant, dyed-in-the-wool optimist."

Amen, Pat. I think I have the same affliction.

What the hell is wrong with us ?
tjnd88 | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:58 pm | #

It's almost like we WANT the team to win.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 4:59 pm | #

It'd be nice if we get Jonas a semi-decent OL to play behind. ND has seldom had the talent at RB that it does now; it's never had this year's near total lack of production. Great backs become worthless when they have to do it all on their own. Darius Walker has, more and more, come to look like one of the greatest backs in Irish history.

Nice pickup. Does CB have any buddies he can bring into town who have some inkling of offense?
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 5:02 pm | #

do any of you loyal domers believe that charlie weis is not a fraud ? weislaughed -laughed after the worst defeat sustained ny notre dame in the usc series-fat ,filthy mouthed, and dog s t dumb-fire weis and kevin white now and give a new brilliant coach a chance to really ''return to glory '' with great recruits - napoleon was asked by marshall ney before the battle of austerlitz the following question which also applies to weiss- ''before the battle ,emperor, on whose side does christ our saviour favor ? - the emperor '' you fol -on the side with the biggest cannons and sharpest cannoiers '' !! sounds like pete carroll and his o line and mark sanchez we got nothing but crap
jimmy johnson | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 5:11 pm | #

wow
nylarch | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 5:18 pm | #

well Jimmy, at least you have nice hair.
indy | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 5:19 pm | #

!! sounds like pete carroll and his o line and mark sanchez we got nothing but crap

Not until your post, "jimmy johnson." Go back to the bottle and keep drinking. Perhaps you'll enter oblivion.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 5:22 pm | #

I believe the post relating to OL was that high draft picks on the OL have a much more likely chance of being good pros than at the skill positions.

Regarding the Slate article. What is the point? So this guy thinks Weis sucks. Who cares? He makes no point other than that he thinks Weis can't coach. Really? No "real" news to ponder. At least give me a good ND is a bunch of racists or something. But just saying he "sucks"? Really?
Michael | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 5:29 pm | #

Man, with all the talent coming in at the skill positions combined with the talented freshmen and sophomore we already have, this could be a really exciting--and dangerous--offense

My manta from now until next August will be O-line O-line O-line O-line O-line...


p.s. I'm now going to compose an article for Slate arguing that the Red Sox are a much better team on paper than the Rockies. I know, I know. It's brilliant. They'll never see it coming.
highnoon | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 5:40 pm | #

Chait wrote a piece for TNR Online after Michigan beat ND last year arguing that Notre Dame's mystique was all a fraud, etc., etc., and that people should recognize that Michigan really is the Truly Great Football Program. What's hysterical about that was that UM claims several NCs that they didn't actually win (right?), and Chait went right ahead and trotted out those numbers about total championships to prove his point about how ND is overblown.
John | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 6:06 pm | #

Pat,

thanks for the explain on the star system. as usual more is better.
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 6:28 pm | #

Does anyone feel like we consistently get great running backs but they never amount to anything because of the atrociousness of the O-line and Weis's refusal to develop a running game? Think about how good D. Walker, Munir Prince, and Armando Allen have been. Even Aldridge and Hughes. I think these guys have tremendous talent, but it seems like Weis refuses to consistently stick with a running game. Not to mention the bad O-line play.
Kenzhand | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 6:46 pm | #

First of all, I think a "WELCOME JONAS" is due. Good luck my man. Hold on to the ball.

Second, did any of you check out his highlight videos over at Rivals?

I think I watched Highlights #4 and ITS HILARIOUS. I don't know if Jonas is fast . . . I mean, he doesn't LOOK that fast, but NO ONE TOUCHES HIM. He runs through the middle of the line, stiff arms one guy and then BOOM, he's gone for a TD 80 yards later.

And he does the same thing again and again for like 6 or 7 runs.

Absolutely hilarious. Hopefully, Jonas can break some tackles, but Highlight Video #4 doesn't show any kids capable of getting to Jonas to make tackles . . .
atepesm | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 7:21 pm | #

You are answering yourself Kenszhand. How can you have a consistent running game when you have a bad OLine? Weis has to grasp at straws, we get into 3 and short and we cant run the ball, very seldom do we get into third and short even. If you cant run the ball with any consistency your offense cant do anything. Even in the NFL they establish a running game. One reason why we are in the situation that we are is laid out in the Boys vs Men article on Rock House. Look at our youth compared to just three of our first eight opponents. We suffer from a terrible lack of experience and it has shown. This isnt an excuse, but it is a fact. We are basically a high school team playing pretty veteran college teams. Remember that some of these starters were on the scout team last year and others were playing against 15, 16 and 17 year olds.We have to face facts, when you have inexperienced players blocking 4th and 5th year seniors, when you have a kid playing QB who last year was playing against a majority of players who never played another football game after their last high school game or who are still playing there this year, that is a terrible lack of experience and handcuffs play calling, no matter how well the kid knows the playbook. I am as disappointed as anyone in the record of this team, but we are very young and it shows. We dont have enough 4th and 5th year players to make up for our inexperience and they cant do everything.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 7:21 pm | #

They can't come soon enough: Craig James five minutes ago, talking about BC, just said "you can't judge the Eagles playing against teams like UMass and Notre Dame."

What a season.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 7:27 pm | #

Jimmy Johnson,

Compose your letter in Word, spell check it, grammar check it, then paste. You'll look slightly less like an idiot....not much mind you, but it'll help.
mikes1160 | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 7:31 pm | #

Law school. That is the most impressive part of the article.
me | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 7:50 pm | #

I wonder if any of the so-called disenchanment of the upper classmen on the team, if it is actually true, is related in any way to the fact that Weis and Company keep racking up solid verbals from high school studs who are in no way being scared off by ND's dismal '07 season. Could it be that CW is throwing everybody under the bus when he speaks with recruits, and word has leaked back into the locker room that CW is telling kids something akin to "you have to come here and help us turn this thing around. You are better right now than [insert name of current upperclassman starter here]". Every guy on the team, whether he is a regular player or not, believes that he has what it takes to play in the NFL, and maybe some of the seniors and 5th year seniors are getting a clue that CW isn't real keen on recommending most of these chumps to his pro scout buddies, and, in fact is telling 16 and 17 year old h.s. juniors and seniors that they are superior to almost all of our current players! And I would have to agree, not only with the tactic, but with the assessment!
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 7:56 pm | #

Voice,

Clearly, CW isn't afraid to play freshies right now, so I would imagine any stud recruit feels that the chance to start to start first or second year is a distinct possibility.

On the other hand, I would think recruits (and their parents) would be dismayed to hear CW lambast his present team, especially in his third year. I wouldn't be impressed and I'm sure Charlie is smart enough to avoid that kind of dispargement.
mikes1160 | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 8:04 pm | #

I agree Mikes1160.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 8:07 pm | #

Voice- interesting point. You might have something there.

On a side note here is something to ponder, I got this from the BGI msg board: The only other Notre dame team with this many 5th yr SRs in a season was the 5-7 2003 team. Hopefully we can have such a record!

It’s interesting to note that with all the SR leadership on paper, how it doesn't necessarily translate onto the field. If you think about it, it makes sense that 5th yr guys aren't by default the leaders of the team. Many of the guys came back to get one final audition for the NFL- not to win a championship. Guys from '02 knew they wouldn't win in '03 and guys this year likely knew the same thing. Other people coming back would be a kicker who wouldn't mind being in school for one more year on ND's dime or guys who feel like they have something left to prove.

Now I don't mean to judge these guys as individuals (though it does sound like I am) but it seems like these guys are more for "I" than the "team." A situation like BC's 17 5th Srs is different- they had a real shot and could achieve something huge for their school. Our guys never really had that opportunity despite what everyone says in August- "goal is to win the NC." So is there any surprise that there may not exactly be dissension in the team ranks, but rather more of a changing of the guard that doesn't sit well with the older guys.
PM | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 8:07 pm | #

mikes1160, while some parents might be dismayed to hear CW lambaste his current players, most are only interested in hearing how absolutely wonderful their own son is. Picture CW in the living room, or on the phone, speaking in a normal voice, then, leaning in and speaking in almost a whisper, saying something like: "Son, talent like yours is rare and, you know, I love ALL my players like they are my own sons, but just between you and me, I really think that you could suit up right now and compete for and probably win [insert current player's name here] spot in the lineup." I don't think that anyone would really hear that as CW disparaging his troops, but moms and dads mostly want to hear that their baby is gonna be a star. I have no idea if he is recruiting like this, but when you are 1-7, it sure as hell is plausible.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 8:34 pm | #

Voice - I would think that to some extent that is true...but I wouldn't phrase it that way. Weis doesn't seem the type to tear one player down for something like recruiting. But even he says - hey look at what the situation is...you could come in and make an immediate impact.

Maybe some people are resentful of that, but really if you are afraid of competition don't play football at the highest level. Think NFL coaches are going to be all warm and fuzzy because you have been with the team longer? Not a chance.

The upperclassmen should be glad for the opportunity to hone their skills against the best in practice - the truth is it's an opportunity. Mike Floyd ruled out Minnesota because they didn't even have anyone in their secondary that he thought could make him a better player. Who could blame him for that? I liken it to having tougher professors - is someone going to be bitter because their prof is tougher? They should be happy that their tuition pays for a good education.
Piyachi | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 8:39 pm | #

Piyachi, kids going on to play major college ball generally have a very keen sense of their abilities, and nobody shows up thinking that they'll never be good enough to start. On the contrary, every player shows up full of piss and vinegar, chomping at the bit to prove that all those newspaper articles that have been written about them in their hometown rags are 100% true. Then reality hits them all right square in the mouth. It's going to be hard as hell to break into the lineup, beat out incumbents, etc., etc. Ergo, four ND sophs walk out of the program during the season in order to go somewhere else where they will be happier (translation: play).

Regarding your analogy of difficult professors who students should be thankful for because it validates the high price of their education...that sounds great in an ideal world, but tell that to undergrads who missed getting into their first choices of graduate schools because their GPA was .2 lower than it really needed to be, while a kid from academically soft Big State U with a GPA .2 higher gets the slot.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 9:00 pm | #

Boy, is slate.com grinding an axe?
CJ's Pub | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 10:09 pm | #

I love our NEAR future!
CJ's Pub | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 10:13 pm | #

Voice - good points... funny that you should mention the grad school analogy because I have to apply soon (eek!)Man I hope I don't lose out to someone with a .2 higher GPA or a better 40 time, haha.

Ultimately I would hope that someone smart enough to get into ND would understand that their future may lie outside of Sunday football, but I have never had the opportunity, so I can't really speak to that. It's not that I don't understand the sentiment, it just disappoints me. I hope it isn't the case.
Piyachi | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 10:52 pm | #

My question:

Can he or can he not carry the wheel?
AS | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 10:58 pm | #

PM - Your speculation that 5th year seniors are more concerned about their own future is interesting. Here's another way to look at it, though -- CW knew he had such little experience coming back that he used his persuasive abilities (which are excellent, to judge by his recruiting) to get some of those guys to sign on for the extra year.
rays15 | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 10:58 pm | #

Listening to Fox Sports Radio last night here in Milwaukee, jumping into the middle of one of the guy's rants, he was saying that you can't say any coach is winning with another coach's players, unless the replacement came in half-way through the season, OR
"you're Charlie Weis".
E-Man | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 11:05 pm | #

anybody just see what bc did to the hokies? amazing. we had a team that could do that. once. a while ago. well a real long time ago, well maybe never... never mind..
bcuster | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 11:17 pm | #

Wow. B.C. comes back from 10-0 to win 14-0. How about that?
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 11:22 pm | #

it made me sad. i tried to get pumped because bc is supposedly a catholic school... i am crying on the inside...
bcuster | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 11:29 pm | #

It's hard to swallow. But you have to give them credit. That's a road win a lot of people didn't think they could pull off.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 11:35 pm | #

I wouldnt want my kid to play for a coach who put down his current players. What will he be saying about my son three or four years from now. Maybe Charlie is saying we really need help and I dont think he is saying that about 5th year players, that doesnt make any difference to these kids, they wont be here next year and if that were true,why would Crum announce that he was coming back next year. Besides, the two newest recruits are adding depth to positions that return all of this years players, save for Thomas who isnt much of a factor anyway.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 11:37 pm | #

Matt Ryan may have won the Heisman tonight with that performance at the end of the game.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 11:41 pm | #

Doug.....thanks for your very incoherent thoughts.
CJ's Pub | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 11:45 pm | #

you are welcome pub, I see you giving great insight
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.25.07 - 11:53 pm | #

The only thing worse than ND playing the way it is, is BC playing the way it is. What a complete and total kick in the stones. What a rotten lesson in humility. Words fail me.
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:25 am | #

Even I have to admit that BC/Ryan looked good at the end - against an overrated and hyped VaTech team. Still, beating the Little Sisters of the Poor in the last two minutes deserves some kind of nod.

Re the Slate.com article: Except for a gross overestimation of TW's recruiting classes and the by-now familiar hyperbole that passes itself off as journalism/commentary/analysis - I don't see where Chait is so far off the beam. As a commentator on politics, he is something of a bombastic fool, and it's nice to see that he stays in form here.

But we're in deep, deep trouble in Domerland, and ND partisans pointing to the statistical and presumed quality of CW's recruits are turning willfully away and in horror from what they see actually transpiring on the field - under Weis' direction. What Chait gets right is just how unbelievably awful this year's team is - statistics merely confirm what we have all seen acted out before our eyes. In my more than forty five years as a fan then a student then an alum - I have never seen the equal of this. Faust, Willingham, Davie - none of these completely inadequate coaches ever fielded teams that performed this unspeakably terribly.

And Chait has the nerve to bring up the 800 pound gorilla in the room - that TW was fired at the same point in his tenure that CW is now after a tenure that as far as performance goes parallels Weis' - a great start aided by what other would call the occasional lucky bounce but that we know was divine grace, followed by collapse in big games and historically thorough poundings by our arch rivals. It is a only a matter of time - or a loss to Navy and an unexpected win by Washington - before the blogs and pundits come alive with renewed allegations of racism.

In our little game time chats here, one regular poster has brought up on a number of occasions the severe difficulty that a buyout of CW would entail. Now that kind of talk is probably premature, even given the parallel to TW, but I reiterate - deep deep trouble - prestige, NBC contract, position as #2 all time in wins (Texas is about 17 winds behind us)- all this is in danger from the complete collapse of morale, effort, and competitive football demonstrated by this edition of the Weis era, one that he must (and to his credit has) take responsibility for. This is more than just a "rebuilding year" - other schools have those. This is the worst disaster in the history of ND football, one that puts at risk the painstakingly and proudly built status as the premier program in the history of college football.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 1:11 am | #

Wow, with that post you would think that the armageddon was scheduled for 7 am this morning.

The most frustrating thing for me as an ND fan is dealing with this "ND should never lose ever" idea. No one stays on top forever; you fall, you reassess, and then you reclimb.

If this continues for another year without improvement, I worry. But I've been in this hole as an athlete, and it builds character. We can argue about why the team's in this hole, but what matters is that they start working to get out of it. If they stay in it, then we can start claiming the death of ND football.
yak | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:28 am | #

Good post Jimk.
This is an absolute disaster of a year.
1-8.
Less than 300 yds. rushing for the entire season.
Who could ever see this disaster coming.
As far as a buyout.
How many coaches do you hire before you get it right?
If not CW, than what.
It's 3 in 11 years. Not counting George O'Leary.
Is Notre Dame to become the Harvard's, Yale's, Chicago's, USMA, of the 2nd millenium.
I have to trust in CW to get this righted and on course.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:29 am | #

I should make it clear - I think we have to and will and should stay with CW and give him a chance to learn how to be a head college coach, if he can. But JimM., you articulate my greatest fear exactly. Virtually all the non-ND sites, blogs, pundit corners, and so on, are proclaiming the "death" of ND, most suggesting that we "haven't been relevant since the 80s," to quote one.

And while I agree, yak, that I'm being a bit dramatic, the excessive partisanship of a lot of us under the Dome prompts us at times to look past the reality of today toward either our storied past or the future we hope for, on the thin basis of magazine/website rankings of our recruits.

A few years back, when Michigan beat us they passed us as the "winningest team" in CFB on a percentage basis - a position we have occupied since the days of Leahy.

Texas is 16 games behind our #2 ranking in all time wins.If present trends continue - they on the upswing and we mired in mediocrity - they could pass us as early as 2009.

The next Heisman won by a player from Ohio State or USC will put that school ahead of us as #1 in total H awards, a position we have occupied for more than 50 years.

The NBC contract is up for renewal in (I think) two years.Our status as the only team in CFB with its own individual major network contract is under a shadow of doubt.

Armageddon? Maybe not in any serious sense - but without some sense of historical perspective as above, people might in fact not realize just how dim the situation looks. I've been struck by how little historical perspective a generation or so of ND people seem to have on the program - in part because there is no competitive much less dominating aspect to ND football for at least twenty years now. Maybe the gen x and subsequent Irish partisans aren't even aware that it was not always so.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:40 am | #

Jim

Rumors are that Lloyd Carr might be on the market after this year. :>))
GB | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 3:50 am | #

"How about him having career ambitions that don't involve him working on Sunday afternoons."

Obviously, Irishru2 is not an attorney.
Don E. Brook | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 6:11 am | #

CW inherits a program that was in far worse shape than many ND fans realized. Read the most recent Rock Report for a good dose of reality. This is not an excuse for bad coaching-just a key resaon regarding ND's performance this year. If you want CW gone, tell us who you want as his replacement.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 6:52 am | #

JimK brings up a topic that I find fascinating. That is today's youth and their amazing lack of historical perspective. And the young people we constantly consider here happen to be clean living (relatively) athletes who have, for the most part, always excelled academically. If kids today don't know which century World War II was fought in, they damn sure don't know that a small Catholic university in Northern Indiana has a rich and proud football tradition.
A 20 year old on the current team, born in 1987, probably really only started watching football on TV when he was eight or nine years old. That would be 1995 or 1996. Imagine that your impression of ND football was based upon only what you have actually seen with your own eyes since 1996!
I remember several years ago reading an interview with a high school recruit and I was nearly floored when he said something akin to "I'm not really that interested in Notre Dame because I want to play at a school where the teams have always been excellent. That's why I'm leaning towards Florida State." While my little rant here could become a full blown dissertation about the fall of civilized society, I think you get my point. To many people, perception IS reality, and ancient history means ten years ago. It is imperative that ND resume winning championships, producing Heisman contenders, etc. in order to appeal to today's athlete, raised in an instant gratification/ me-first world.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 7:19 am | #

Just when I thought Charlie couldn't get any dumber, he goes out and does something like this...and totally redeems himself!

A few days ago I was solidly in agreement w/JimK. I still agree with his general point that something is seriously wrong this year that goes well beyond the horrible Jr. and Sr. classes left by [NAME REDACTED]. The catastrophic blunders by CW related to his failure to adapt to the college game have been well documented.

But damn, every time I look at this recruiting class I get downright giddy and my pessimism starts to melt away. CW's recent pressers also make it clear he's finally realizing that he can't coach these young players like they're NFL veterans. That gives me still more hope for the future. Boys, pass me some of that kool-aid!
scott | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 8:47 am | #

JimK is on to something here…look at the historical benchmarks that Notre Dame has lost over the past couple of years. And in the near future, high school juniors and seniors won't have memories of those days. With the greater amount of television coverage now available for the major conferences, we're even losing the television luster.

I'm depressed this morning.
ND Alum | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 8:56 am | #

Look even Pete Carrol can say "Everyone saw this coming three years ago." It's been an awful season fine, but now we will play even more of the kids, and we should be getting excited about the future. If in a year or two we aren't winning games we can all have a nice circle-suicide but in the meanwhile... do we have to bitch about a SLATE article??? I don't know where you guys live, but I take that shit every day. You deal with it. The first weeks sucked, and it was hard, but you learn not to freak out everytime someone says something negative about your school.

I go to this place to get away from the idiot "OMG NOTRE DAME SUCKS" crowd. And you guys are getting worked up over SLATE?? I expected more.
O | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 9:22 am | #

The whole argument that ND is irrelevant is nothing more than revisionist history. Just because we haven't won an NC in 20 years doesn't mean we haven't been in the picture. Lots of teams are "relevant" but haven't won a NC any time lately. Virginia Tech, Cal and Georgia come to mind.

Weren't we ranked as high as #1 at the beginning of last season? That seems pretty relavant. Not to mention while just about every team can say they are on TV every week, no one else has their own home network and every away game is covered by ABC or ESPN. In the last two years, I have had to go to a bar a whopping two times to see the Irish play (last year against Air Force and the UCLA game this year). GA played a few weeks ago and the game was not even on-demand in Atlanta.

The Irish are so relevant, Slate and the NYT waste precious paper talking about how irrelevant we are.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 9:30 am | #

Ty W was fired not because of racism, or a very poor record at that time, but because there was a chance to get the hot coaching prospect at the moment, Urban Meyer. Urban lied about his love for Notre Dame and his desire for the dream job. He left ND at the altar and ran to the tall grass in Florida like a snake when enough cash with many good but questionable character players were there for him to win quickly. Am I bitter? Should heads roll, like the AD yesterday and Charlie in two years if he keeps this thing up? Yeah, but I am least honest about it and not a phony like Meyer Weiner. Then to make matters worse, he begins to go after ND recruits. Enough of this.
Curious George | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 9:32 am | #

Knowing that CFB is cyclical is it a stretch to say that USC is on the way down and despite the on the field trouble this year ND is definately on the rise.

The Poodle is likely gone, LLLoyld is likely gone from Michigan and given the talent level increases there are no excuses next year or beyond.

Couple the talent re-load, the weaker schedule, and Charlie's learnings this year and how can you not be optimistic?
hoosier95 | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 9:59 am | #

fyi: Jonathan Chait, the Slate writer is a University of Michigan graduate.
Curious George | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 10:03 am | #

"'How about him having career ambitions that don't involve him working on Sunday afternoons.'

Obviously, Irishru2 is not an attorney."

HA! Sad but true.
Man has this been a rough year.
Irish14 | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 10:06 am | #

Thank you Pat for a great post. Thank you Jonas for your decision to be Irish. I agree that it is great to have a recruit who has goals beyond possibly playing on Sunday. One can never tell, but it appears we have a gem...many of them in the Class of 2008.
Ted | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 10:12 am | #

After reading Pat's post and replying, I read Allen Wallace's story about Dayne Crist. Is it my tendency to worry or just the thinking of a high school senior responding to continued interest from USC, LSU, etc? I could feel much better about his thinking regarding other football programs.
Ted | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 10:47 am | #

"....in part because there is no competitive much less dominating aspect to ND football for at least twenty years now"

Weren't we robbed of a national championship 14 years ago? Isn't 14 less than 20?

"Dominant" Ohio State went 34 years between 1968 and 2002 without a national championship. Get real. These things run in cycles.
yoyo | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:27 am | #

I'll bet my Kool-Aid jar that Crist is stoked.......by the way, is he going to register early?
mikes1160 | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 11:29 am | #

The comparisons between Weis' and Willingham's 3-year records will miss two important factors, and no I'm not talking about recruiting:

First, Weis will finish this year one or two games better than Willingham. Had Ty won just one or two more games, he would have been gone.

Second, most of ND's losses can be explained with a couple, consistent reasons (namely, youth and having a killer 10-game stretch). Whether or not you buy these reasons is one thing, but for Willingham it was a different reason every week. We'd lose to BYU and then beat Michigan. Upset Florida State and then lose to BC. We'd lose at the last minute, or we'd be blown out in the first quarter. Willingham's teams have played that way his entire career. When a team is that inconsistent, it falls on the coaching.

In the last three years, Weis has won the games he's supposed to have won, and lost the wons he was supposed to have lost, with few exceptions (2005 MSU and 2007 Georgia Tech were games he should have won; 2005 Michigan and Tennessee were game he probably should have lost). The margin of loss is a concern, but the end result has been consistent.
Steve R | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:28 pm | #

Michael, you're absolutely right. While we have had some whoppingly horrible teams in the last decade and a half, in '93 we came within a whisker of a national championship. For all of Davie and Willingham's faults, they each had teams finish the season "in the discussion." (Anyone remember Bob's team that tied the NCAA mark for fewest turnovers in a season?) Charlie's first season was good enough that it had us "in the discussion" to start last season.

Only slightly off topic, but how many of you think that Pete Carroll is a brilliant coach versus a fantastic recruiter? Not me (now, Norm Chow, on the other hand . . .). Who thinks that Mack Brown is such a brilliant coach as opposed to a recruiting genius? Not me. So, what if Charlie isn's as "brilliant" a coach as we all thought. He's landing buckets of blue chips. I want to see what happens when the bulk of our 4- and 5-stars are old enough to drink. If they still suck, then dump Charlie and promote Corwin. If they don't . . . it will be HI-larious listening to all these douche-bags explain where all of ND's talent mysteriously appeared from.
Fitzwater | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 12:52 pm | #

Great article. One nit: it's Parcells' (or Parcells's), not Parcell's.
Tim | Email | Homepage | 10.26.07 - 2:26 pm | #

Congrats on perhaps the only WEEZER reference in sports blogging history. =W=
Anthony | Email | Homepage | 10.29.07 - 8:59 pm | #

Enough with talk of bluechip 4 and 5 star recruits. If Charlie has a 1-7 team with 1 and 2 star recruits what will he have when he has all 4 and 5 star recruits? 4-4, that's what.
Alan | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 11:37 am | #