Jay,

Not that I don't appreciate your piece, cause I do, but what we all really want to know is how you guys feel about Weis' replacement options.

I assume all you guys acknowledge he FINALLY lost his job last night?
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 11:50 am | #

Daybreak,

I won't pretend to speak for Jay, Pat or anyone else on BGS staff, but I'll tell you that for my part I am not at all convinced that CW is gone.

We still have to wait and see. I think that 8-4 is a decent chance (losing to Pitt, beating conn and squeaking pass the tree). If that happens, I really am not sure that Swarbick et. al. will have it in them to pull the trigger. I think they should, but I have my doubts as to their intestinal fortitude.

I will not cheer for ND to lose, but the prospect of 8-4 and an eventual Gator Bowl scares me. The University is going to need someone in the wings willing buy out CW's contract before they cut him loose at 8-4. 7-5 it might be a different story.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 11:55 am | #

Thanks for the good, thoughtful post about how ND lost that game to Navy.


Now let's play a round of 'Who Said It?'

“We have had some great team wins. This was a great team loss. There is blame to go all around and it starts with me. I did a horrible job getting this team ready.”

Was it Weis? Tenuta? Brown?

Heck no.

The answer is Navy coach Ken Niumatalolo said this after losing to Temple last week, 27-24.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 11:55 am | #

Oh boy, the Gator Bowl. If we're lucky we get to play Georgia Tech and their version of the triple option running game with Paul Johnson.
dbldomer7375 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:00 pm | #

I was at a wedding and received angry texts from my friend all afternoon. I watched the tape today and I agree with Jay, considering the numbers, situations, probabilities, shit happens.

Clausen is a grat QB, a great QB. He's the best I've seen in an ND uniform (I'm 31 yrs old). He just doesn't get any help from his defense. They screwed him against UM, screwed him again against SC, and today, quit honestly, they looked horrible, confused from the first snap. Our defensive staff was out coached yet again.
Felipe | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:06 pm | #

21 points on Navy is not the hallmark of a great QB. We've lost to a .500 Michigan team and a crappy SC team. CHARLIE WEIS IS NOT A GOOD COACH.
Dekom | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:09 pm | #

--------------------------------------
Losing to Navy is indefensible, and I'm not here to defend it. But winning a football game is about maximizing your possessions more than the other guy, and there are specific reasons we lost this game. On defense...

The third TD for Navy didn't come until late in the third quarter, after a couple of punts and a missed FG. It was a 3-play scoring drive -- very un-Navy-like
-------------------------------------
Just two comments that show you haven't been paying attention to Navy over the last 2-3 years. Might try watching them play rather than relying on outdated misconceptions ...
WTDoor | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:11 pm | #

I'll take "shit happens" for a few things - the missed FGs and the goalline fumble. But not for everything.

Shit happens a lot more frequently if you put a team that is fundamentally unsound on the field, as we appear to have been doing since 2006. The talent of the players only manages to obscure the fact that they are not well-coached, esp. on the defensive side. It has been this way since before Ty left.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:11 pm | #

Get us someone who can teach our players to block, tackle, and play good football. Right now, we don't have that.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:14 pm | #

lets see what happens....

i think how the rest of the schedule plays out, along with the coaches that are available will be the difference in where charlie stands...

as much as this hurts, getting another davie or willingham will only make things worse
buttface | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:15 pm | #

Oh, and here is the absolutely worst thing about it.

Despite superior athletes, and a MASSIVE offensive line and a 240 lb. running back who is bigger than some of Navy's defensive lineman, we managed 60 yards rushing against Navy. Just 60 yards.

Somewhere, Lou Holtz is crying.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:18 pm | #

Indeed, shit happens. It just happens a lot more frequently with Weis's teams. I have a sinking feeling that 8-4 with a bad loss in the Gator bowl will doom us to another year of purgatory.
scott | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:22 pm | #

8-4? is that what we've reduced the bar too? regardless, i have a hard time believing this team wins at Pitt or at Stanford.

two losses to Navy guys. TWO. both at home. i don't care that Navy is a bowl team and is a good program - it's the perception of Navy that hurts.

i'd rather lose to a two-win Purdue or two-win Washington team than an eight-win Navy team.
Schultz | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:31 pm | #

The only we all win ... is that we cut Weis by "promoting" him because of health reasons to Assistant AD then we hire BIG ... I mean BIG ...

1. Bill Cowher - nasty defenses

2. Gary Patterson - similiar program in terms of religious campus and ethically run program

3. Chris Peterson - took a commuter school in the middle of nowhere, and I mean absolutley no where, and has has made them a national condenter, year in and year out.

*and before anyone says it, I know BSU plays in an inferior conference. But he wins the games he suppossed to win and then wins the games he suppossed to lose (Oklahoma)
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:32 pm | #

DK... the idea of "promoting" CW would be interesting, but my guess is that such a thing - in contractual terms - would be tantamount to dismissal (unless of course CW agreed to it, which I don't see happening).
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:35 pm | #

Hey WTDoor, you challenged the assertion that a 3-play, 72-yard scoring drive was "un-Navy-like", so I looked it up.

Turns out that scoring drive was the third-most-efficient on the year for the middies, covering 24 yards per play.

The "average" Navy scoring drive for 2009 is 8+ plays. Furthermore, they have only thrown 3 passing touchdowns all year.

It doesn't take an expert to notice that Navy typically grinds out their touchdowns. This is not a slam on Navy's offense, either -- quite the opposite. But saying that Navy's long passing score was a surprise is perfectly accurate.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:36 pm | #

W/r/t predictability.... That sounds oddly familiar. Was it a USC or Michigan guy who commented that our Offense was exactly like they had seen in their practices???? like...EXACTLY??? Was that this season?
GoldenStateDomer | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:38 pm | #

diesel....speaking of religious campus programs...any thoughts about Mendenhall?
GoldenStateDomer | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:44 pm | #

one more thing...following JC's fumble..why do our linebackers and corners chase the pitch man running 5 yds deep in his own end zone instead of the fullback? That play was painful to watch and iced the game in my opinion, despite the comeback.
Felipe | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:46 pm | #

"Shit happens," Jay? Not buying it. There was nothing bizarre or abnormal about yesterday's game. Here's what we saw:

Bad defense: We've seen that every game this year, except Washington State.

Bad red zone offense: A frequent occurrence. Check out the footage from Washington and Boston College.

Bad special teams: Again our specialty. We've mastered the 30-yard punt, the kickoff to the 15 and the 20-yard kick off return. Should it be surprising that we're starting to miss field goals as well? And yeah, Tausch had been very reliable on field goals this year. But given that he's missed three extra points so far, I'm not sure his missing two very short field goals should be deemed all that strange.

In short, where's the surprise? Where's the shit that happened? Same shit we've seen all year....
Dome Sweet Dome | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 12:55 pm | #

There were truly some tough breaks yesterday that can't be attributed to poor coaching (e.g., the Clausen fumble and maybe the Floyd bounce). But crap like that happens in the red zone because ND can't line up and run the ball. Our best running play is the shotgun draw. Once the space tightens up in the end zone, it's fade, pitch (to the wrong back), and fade again. A team that relies on the pass in football is a little bit like teams that rely on 3's and fast breaks in basketball. Eventually, you have to be able to run or play halfcourt ball, respectively.
ndfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 1:01 pm | #

I have to disagree that we "squandered opportunities on offense mostly due not to scheme or playcalling, but player mistakes at critical junctures ". Our supposed offensive scheme advantage has fallen short all year, especially inside the red zone. Whatever brilliance CW used to have with playcalling, he's lost it. Our struggles to score a touchdown from first and goal have plagued us all year. CW seems very indecisive (pound it up the middle three times? Throw the fade? A quick out? an off-tackle run?) at that point and it continues to cost us. If I see another "throw the ball up in the air and hope floyd or tate out-jumps the other guy in the corner of the endzone fade route" I'm going to vomit all over my TV. Defensively, the scheme sucked too, and our inability to adjust has also cost us all year (see Michigan). We're getting out-schemed on both sides of the ball. The talent that Weis and Tenuta once had in this respect (and they did have it), is gone. I wish they would find a way to get it back.
James ND | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 1:08 pm | #

Defensively, I don't know what the deal is. Offensively, the problem is that we have a coach who is trying to cram overly complicated pro schemes into a simpler college game. In the pros you can assume 1) a certain level of physicality in all the offensive players, or they would not have made it there, and 2) stunningly fast and athletic linebackers and defensive linemen, even on the crummy teams. Therefore your offense is largely designed to out-quick the super fast defenses with a lot of three step drops, mix of formations, and precision passing.

In college ball, you need to 1) implement physicality through your style of play because you are seasoning young players, and 2) you don't need the be playing keep away with your schemes, especially at a premier program. You need to hit people in the mouth, execute a base of simple plays, and make your wrinkles feed off that.

Charlie is making this more difficult than he needs to because that is all he knows. It's shame because he's a good guy who runs a clean program and recruits well. But he has to go. The shoe doesn't fit.
David Smith | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 1:28 pm | #

Shit happens, but well-coached teams find ways to adjust and overcome shit--which is the basics of sports and life.
No Mercy | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 1:32 pm | #

I find it hard too believe that there are still a few apologists out there who think Charles should come back next year. This man is overpaid, overhyped, and UNDERQUALIFIED.

By any measure you choose, he has been an utter failure. First coach to lose two to navy since another inept coach, Joe Kuharich, but at least Kuharich had to face Roger Staubach.
gwzimm | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 1:46 pm | #

The team walked out of the tunnel. They lost the game before it started. That's how they were against Syracuse last year. Weis can not motivate the team for the regular games. If he stays he needs to bring in a motivational speaker to get the team psyched up.
I suggest Lou Holtz.
tim | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 1:46 pm | #

Great analysis and post, Jay.
bpeters1 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 1:46 pm | #

Jay, you didn't answer the most important question. If we beat Navy next year, will all students at the Academy of Notre Dame get Monday off?
indy | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 1:51 pm | #

The ENTIRE coaching staff should be fired. Not one of them is worth a damn. Our special teams have not improved, our offensive line has been miserable for years, and our defense is even WORSE than when Weis was hired.

Not one single coach needs to be kept.
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 1:52 pm | #

I knew the game was over when Ruffer kicked the ball 8 yeards deep in the endzone. If that wasn't a sign of the apocolypse I don't know what is.
President Rome | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 2:07 pm | #

Can anyone tell me whether or not we ran a single play-action pass yesterday? Can we please throw to a tight end who doesn't line up as a receiver in the slot? Did Ragone come off the line for his long pass, or was he standing at the snap? I don't recall.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 2:08 pm | #

I disagree Daybreak....Brian Polian can stay at Notre Dame as long as he likes....how the hell he was able to recruit a hawaiian all american linebacker to a team in south bend indiana, with the worst defense in D 1 college football for the last 5 years and a team that hasn't had a great linebacker in twenty years, is unfreaking believable.

Brian Polian has recruited lights out for ND and deserves to stay, everybody else should be axed....though I also like Randy Hart, I'd like to see more of him.
Trevor | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 2:13 pm | #

By the way, Charlie Weis has forgotten two hugely important parts of football

The offensive line, and the defensive line. We don't have either one and we haven't had either one for a long time....with the exception of Justin Tuck I wouldn't say we had one great player on either line.

Charlie is a wide reciever/QB coach, he knows nothing about running the ball, and he has no understanding of how an offensive line should work.

I really feel the next coach at ND has to be a defensive coach...as I've said before look at each of the last National Champions, they all had good defenses
Trevor | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 2:16 pm | #

Chris Peterson is well down my list of potential coaches. The only place he's coached is Boise State, and as good as they've been, they were just as good under Koetter and Hawkins. Remind me how they've done at their next stops?
Craig | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 2:28 pm | #

I just watched the NBC replay to see if I could figure anything out one day removed. Besides making me sick, it showed that Navy did everything they needed to do like a machine and ND was prepared at all. It reminded of the 2008 BC game where one team clearly showed they wanted it more.
I'm tired of the same repetitive patterns. With Ty, we used to get upset with home losses to BC and Pitt and now we are losing at home to Navy.
I told my brother on phone last night to stay positive because a new coach will come out of this slop.
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 2:32 pm | #

8-4? is that what we've reduced the bar too?



In the name of perspective, we've been that bad or worse since 1978 in:

79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
94
97
99
01
03
04
07
08


So for all the hand wringing about ND tradition and "Where we belong" this program has won 10 or more only 7 times in 32 years. 5 of those were in the Holtz window.

ND hasn't been ND for quite some time.

We have improved our record for 3 consecutive years.

The blowouts have stopped

The recruiting is better than its been in 20 years.
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 2:32 pm | #

The losing to Navy hangover is excruciating. I didn't even have a drink yesterday, but my head is throbbing and my stomach is balking like the Irish with a first and goal on the three yard line.

Injury update: Dane Crist's surgery went "better than they could have hoped for", which I guess means they didn't cut off his feet, and Kyle Rudolph x-rays are negative for broken bones.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 2:33 pm | #

I can't believe that Jay has accepted mediocrity. Might as well root for Purdue.
joeyjoejoejrshabadoo | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 2:40 pm | #

joeyjoey - grow up man and stop whining like a little girl. give solutions not verbal polution
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:02 pm | #

Joeyjoejoe...

I get where you're coming from, but you're starting to sound like that guy in Glengarry Glen Ross.

Which brings me to my H.C. replacement suggestion:

Hire Alec Baldwin ('Win' is right in his name) to be the coach, as long as he maintains that character each Saturday. Actual football coaches can do all that other stuff, but Alec Baldwin walks in and gives variations on his salesmanship speech from that play/movie to the players:

"ABW, A always, B be, W winning"

"You see my watch, Jimmy? It cost more than the rental fee on that Hummer you got out of to announce your committment."

"The first prize, gentlemen, is a National Championship. Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired, no more scholarship."

You get the idea.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:02 pm | #

Where do you get that idea, joeyjoejoe?
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:04 pm | #

Somebody here made an excellent point about the chills he felt when Ruffer kicked it into the end zone for a touchback. Such a rare event had to bode no good.


I don't think there was a tailwind, and it got into the end zone IN THE AIR. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw that with an ND kicker.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:07 pm | #

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4634139

When Mark May makes sense, its time to make a change..
Shaun | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:10 pm | #

Someone was right...shit happens, but it seems to happen more to Notre Dame teams than our opposition. There is a saying out there about making your own luck, and I think that applies. For as much that happened, the opportunities were there for a well-coached team. How can this team, with an upper class offensive line and highly rated skill position players all over the field, not score more than 21? How can this team not impose their will and run the ball into the endzone when inside the five yard line?
ND Alum | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:10 pm | #

Jay nailed it -- this one isn't on Weis. If he wins out and beats our bowl opponent (Miami in Gator Bowl?), he is back next year.
Domer Guy | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:12 pm | #

Domer Guy;

I beg to differ. He's the head coach. It's all on him. Win or lose, it's on him. That's the nature of the job.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:28 pm | #

Dekom, the fact that we only put up 21 pts should not be a knock on Clausen. That's play-calling, my friend. Watch the tape, the kid can play.

I can't believe that all of his interceptions have been ass-up football plays (off the back, hail mary pass, allen's buttery fingers).

This sounds obscene, but Clausen is a modern day Paul Hornung. I really feel for JC. He seem like the only player that actually gives a shit.
Felipe | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:29 pm | #

jimmy has been great. but the days of a dropback passer only are long gone. before the toe injury, he couldnt run and certainly cant now.

you need a dual threat QB. a guy who just flings it will look great,but you have to be able to run. the game demands it now.

we no longer need statues back there. jimmy is a gamer, but he is never a threat to run, does not require any special attention past the line of scrimmage.

great kid, great heart, but once he is gone, we need a college QB running a modern college offense. not a leftover NFL offense from charlie
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:33 pm | #

What's the title of Charlie Weis' book, the one he wrote about his experiences rising from H.S. football coach to NFL O.C.? It's called 'No Excuses'.

Think about that title for a minute.

Apparently, Weis isn't very happy with Ian Williams' post-game comments that ND was outschemed by Navy's offense.

Charlie said, "There's a reason why one guy's a captain and one guy isn't."

Okay. But Williams was right. Maybe he shouldn't have said it to a reporter, but he's right. I know it, you know it, Hayden and Tom whathisname knew it.

So, am I overanalyzing by speculating that Charlie doesn't like being contradicted? How has that affected hiring and firing decisions?

Why were they so flat yesterday? Why does tentativeness seem to creep into his teams and settle there as the season goes on?

Is the fact that Ian Williams said what he did a sign of post-game frustration or a signal that Weis is losing the team, again?

Just questions.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:38 pm | #

8-4 is now, and has been for more than a while a respectable season record at ND? Judging from many of the posts in here I guess being a "just out of the top 25" team is good enough. Rather than accept being just about mediocre we could think about being better.

Last year all the talk was about improving this year, does anyone think we are better this year? Our great signature "win" was a loss to a Trojan team that is really down this year. So there you go, as long as we can hang with SC in their down years the coaching job is safe.

Rather than call them fluke plays and saying "shit happens" we can look at the coaching and see that they do a poor job of preparing and focusing the team. Is it too much to ask that they manage to get the team to focus and minimize mistakes.

Here we are with two losses to NAVY and people here are trying to convince me that things are so bad. What a load of horse manure.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:49 pm | #

Im flat out exhausted from watching last nights game. I like Weis, I think he does a good job with recruiting and running a solid program that cares about the players, but I don't know if good cuts it at Notre Dame.

The one thing that I don't see people talking about is that ND gets everyones best shot week after week and its tough. Navy isn't the Navy of old, they were surgeons of the option yesterday and our poor D players have been let down by Tenuta and Brown when it comes to defending an option/spread offense (Mich.,Navy).

If ND played in the SEC, they would struggle to remain above .500. The Weis era has been difficult to take at times, there have been close games, but ND hasn't upset anyone and they have been upset by less talented, yet better developed and better coached foes...

Weis needs to not only win out this season, but he needs to prove his worth against a formidable foe in a bowl game when all the attention is on him.

Mark May has never been more right when he said that ND Nation deserves better... when was the last time ND had a landmark W? When was the last time someone had a Landmark W against ND? less than 24 hrs ago.

I'm frustrated, but I love the players on this team, I want to see them be successful and I know the next three weeks are going to be very tough with Pitt, who is sniffing the top ten, a Uconn team that took #5 Cinncy to the wire and a Stanford team that beat up the same ducks that crushed USC, a team we came up short against. These next few weeks are going to answer all the questions about who leads these players in 2010.
DuceFranko | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 3:54 pm | #

Navy arrived to play; ND arrived to practice touch football. This is the norm for the over-paid master motivator.
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:02 pm | #

aaronb -

Excellent point. I don't think that credit is being given to how far off this program had fallen with Davie and Willingham. Notre Dame has serious academic standards that present a challenge to a coach turning around a program in one year. These standards aren't a justifiable excuse long term - but we need to show patience. Weis is pushing limits, undoubtedly, but considering aaronb's point, there has been progress in some areas that justifies greater patience. We are not Alabama or Florida - our players don't commit felonies or eye gouge and I don't want those players on ND's campus if that is what it takes to turn a program around in one year. Wait until the end of the season and lets see where we are.
ndfan | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:08 pm | #

And fair questions at that, Joe.

One question I have is whether Allen's absence mattered to ND. He really seemed like a tougher runner this season. Obviously it's still on the coaches to have a good backup player or plan in place, but it seems like Armando was actually the best red-zone threat for the Irish this year. Felipe, I couldn't disagree more about Clausen being the only one to care. Allen definitely was at fault for the one interception, but he and many others do indeed care.

Another question I have is just how different Navy is from the recent past. During the years of each ND coach, these were the winning percentages of Navy (and Air Force):

Faust 0.444 (0.689)
Holtz 0.320 (0.586)
Davie 0.291 (0.705)
Willingham 0.541 (0.556)
Weis 0.656 (0.525)

Clearly this is the best stretch for Navy in the last 30 years. The numbers also make the Weis v Navy / Faust v Air Force comparison look appropriate. Lastly, while Navy was on the way up in 2002-04, Willingham's ND teams handled the Middies just fine.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:11 pm | #

What Williams said is no secret and hardly an "over the line" criticsm. Anyone who watched the game or saw replays clearly knows ND was outschemed from the start. What is inexplicable is why ND was still outschemed in the second half. This loss is indefensible, PERIOD, because ND was outprepared and outcoached!!
pennsyalum | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:15 pm | #

"9-3 is not good enough."

Neither was 3-9 or 6-6.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:18 pm | #

Those calling for Weis to be fired need to ask not "who do we want" but "who realistically can we get"? ND is not going to go the route of Alabama and offer anyone $4 million, two cars, relaxed recruting standards, etc. When viewed from this perspective, the field narrows.
melrose | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:20 pm | #

aaronb, ndfan, Louie you guys are doing a great job of defending ND right to be a mid-level team. Why don't you guys just start working on a new contract extension for Chuck? because the way you guys spin it we are as good as we can expect to be.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:32 pm | #

i agree with everything that Not That Tom said.
Schultz | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:32 pm | #

Melrose is on the right track above. I am interested in what coach out there willing to come to ND who understands the tradition and the requirements who is markedly better than Weis?

With the prospect of JC and GT leaving (definitly leaving if CW goes) who is going to take over a program with the back-up QB rehabbing from an ACL and 2 of the top skill players leaving?

It could be another 3 years to get the program back.

However, if CW stays and JC and GT stay ND is a legit top 5 team next year.
Hoosier95 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:40 pm | #

Tom,

We are on the same side. Ultimately we all want ND to be as successful as possible. However it falls into 2 camps

Camp A) WE LOST OH MY GOD FIRE EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THE PROGRAM. COACH IS FAT. HIRE GUY ABC. HE WILL NEVER LOSE. BACK IN MY DAY NAVY WOULD HAVE FORFEITED THIS GAME AND SANG US THE ALMA MATTER.

Camp B) Sucks that we lost. Lets look at the program as a whole and compare where it was to the recent past. Is it trending upwards or has it stagnated?

I hope the decision makers at our beloved university are in camp B.

New coaches after every loss isn't bringing the 1940's back. We need to quit living in the past and embrace the future.

Then you might be able to get a top name coach. As it stands nobody will take the job. (see 2001 and 2004 coaching search)
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:43 pm | #

Not That Tom,

Thanks for your pleasantly sarcastic remarks. I unfortunately do not subscribe to knee jerk reactions when losses to good teams occur. We finish the season 9-3 and have a good bowl game and suddenly the world isn't ending. We lose out the rest of the season and you have a much stronger case. Either way, you need to come to grips with the fact that ND hasn't been a top tier team in probably 15 years (we may have occasionally been ranked that high - but it was an over inflated ranking at best).

And to the point, we are not as good as we can expect to be. I fully expect improvement ... but this team is better than last and definitely better than two years ago. Turning ND into a powerhouse is going to take time and there will be set backs (Continuing to act as if Weis inherited the same program as Meyer is a bunch of crap). We need to let the remainder of the year play out and logically evaluate the state of the program.

You sir are like a little child who can't come to grips with reality when you realize your mother isn't a perfect human being. Notre Dame needs steady improvement and if morons like you keep clamoring for every coach to be fired after some mythical 3 year window has passed ... the program is going to be in a perpetual state of transition and positive momentum can never be built up. I share people's frustrations - but people on this post logically predicted our teams shortcomings just by looking at the players -- and then people like you act surprised because you can't properly temper your expectations.

I'm sorry - I expect a lot. But I don't expect Miracles.
ndfan | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:52 pm | #

Shit happens. My parents both went to OU and I grew an OU fan before seeing the light and going to Notre Dame. I remember in the 1990s shit used to happen to OU all of the time. Then Stoops came along and OU punts stopped being blocked. OU stopped fumbling at the wrong time. Shit stopped happening to OU(well, until recently). Shit has seemed to happen at the wrong time the last three years under Weis. At what point do we realize where the shit is coming from?
Zach | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:55 pm | #

Now that's some horseshit bullshit ndfan.

There hasn't been a 3 year window for Weis. It's been 5 years. And its not a knee jerk decision to fire a coach who is consistently being out coached.
It's common sense.

The program is in a constant state of transition, because ND's administration keeps hiring and firing unqualified head coaches. Like Faust, Davie and Willingham, Weis is another unqualified coach who will never succeed. You can't have momentum when you are consistently out coached, like Weis was again by Navy.

What we expect is for the administration to hire a college coach that has had a solid body of success as a college head coach. It's not difficult to envision that being the goal. It's the rational move.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 4:59 pm | #

Why doesn't Patterson get more talk? TCU is arguably more solid and consistent than their non-BCS peers. They have awesome defenses. They don't just win with Texas Tech style spreads and gimmick plays (we see how that works with Hawkins in Colorado). Patterson or Kelly. They are the next Urban Meyer.
Zach | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 5:01 pm | #

Anonymous,

The 3 year window I was referring to was the 3 years in which people expect a national title and the point in which fire Weis discussion began.

As for the coaches. No pundit thought Weis was a bad hire, few if anyone thought Willingham was a bad hire ... and I'm betting Davie, having worked under Holtz, actually meets the criteria you specify. So - perhaps hiring coaches isn't as much of a science as you think it is.
ndfan | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 5:12 pm | #

Rival's Recruiting Rankings

Year ND Navy

2006 6 116
2007 7 119
2008 2 118

I know some of you do not think these ranking mean much, but I think they do, and overall they are somewhat accurate predictions of future success, as long as these players are developed and trained by good coaches. If you look at the last 10 NC's and runner-ups, they ALL had top ten recruiting classes.

Notre Dame should NEVER lose to a team with such a disparity in talent. It is a true sign that the CW years have been a dismal failure.

People forget that there are MANY advantages to recruiting at ND, making it much easier than other schools. Faust and Davie both had #1 classes, Ty had a top 5, till he got lazy/stupid, and CW has had 3 top tens. Although there are some restrictions, a good recruiter can kill at ND, so I'm not worried about it after they dump CW.
Brian Kelly looks pretty damn good to me
S Man | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 5:30 pm | #

I hope we don’t get in a search, then bidding war with the Skunkbears over a new head coach. They got too much under the table money to wave.

I am proud of these blog comments so far, no one has suggested Lou come back. What is he 72?

If the team is tanked, we could lose out the season, then a new coach for sure is on the horizon. Will JC and GT stick around for one year and a new scheme? I think not.

To steal a comment from Kato over at NDNation. Will the last person jumping off the bandwagon tend to the horse?
Subway Alumni | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 5:46 pm | #

ND will get a great coach because we have a strong program, fan base, and the financial resources to compete for anyone on a dollar basis. We need to stop rolling the dice and get a proven staff and coach with college level experience. Sorry Bucs fans, Gruden is off the table (or NBC will have to be blocked in my house). We have the talent to be competitive immediately with appropriate preparation. For that, I will thank CW if he allows a smooth transition. Unfortunately, he has made some bad staffing decisions and then been far too sluggish to address them. College is a ruthless proving ground for assistant coaches and some of ours are not getting the job done. Nail, meet coffin.
indy | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 5:47 pm | #

I can't believe what I am reading. Our quarterback has a great game; we are by now accustomed to seeing JC throw perfectly into coverage; 5 different receivers all make great catches. Our kicker, who's made 14 in a row misses 2, and you guys want to fire the entire staff?
Tennessee Domer '78 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 5:58 pm | #

One thing that is often overlooked is the 85-player scholarship limit. Ara, Devine and Holtz could turn around a program in the third season because they inherited an arsenal of talent (look at the players Hugh Devore recruited that played on the 1966 team) and were not constrained by an 85-player limit in recruiting. Proof? Where were TCU, Cincy, Boise State, and Oregon, among others, in 1986? Weis inherited what some have said was a self-imposed probation by ND that reared its head in CW's third season. Even with the improvement in recruiting, among the front 7 on defense this year there has been only one senior most of the time. Having said that, CW has undercoached. Will he be dismissed? Stay tuned.
melrose | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 6:11 pm | #

Tenn,

I think you are being a bit naive and disingenuous to suggest that posters want to fire CW (and by consequence turn over almost all of the staff) because our kicker missed two FGs.

There is an entire context behind this that spans back to the Fiest Bowl in Jan 06.

People are tired of the "shit happens" attitude of this coaching staff. He comes out and says himself that 9-3 isn't good enough and then he went 3-9. There is often a shocking disparity between what CW says and the product he puts on the field. Just as last week he was talking about BCS possibilities while his team came out totally unprepared to fight Navy.

THAT, my fried, is why we want fire him. JC is doing everything he can to keep CW around. I admire JC and want to see him succeed. But his individual greatness doesn't mean that CW should stay.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 6:13 pm | #

I haven't read all the comments above--so as a 50 yr ND fan I can only give you my thoughts on the frenzy to fire Weis--the only thing I can say to you youngsters --is this--the toughest job in all football is the ND job.

Coaching wise--this is not a job that a young coach wants--if he fails at ND he won't get another job anywhere--all that talent etc.So what do you do knowing every year you have to win 10 games when everywhere else 8-4 would give you lifetime security--see Iowa see Penn State.

Ara, Holtz lasted 9-10 yrs and were mentally wrecked--after Ara hung a +60 loss on SCal--their coach at the time McCay said they will never beat me again and they didn't--everyone called for Ara's head and I think he finally quit when he barely beat Navy.

So--no one wants the pressure of coaching at ND--no one wanted the job and after you run Weis out of town--you won't have a coach at all.

Paterno lasted 50 yrs at PSU--good yrs and some very bad--still there.

Why not support the only guy that wants to coach here.

It is not always the coach--look at Navy and look at ND in this game--the players make the difference--kinda like when Knute coached. The ND players, on the field embarrassed themselves and that gents has nothing to do with coaching--it's called playing the game.
john | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 6:19 pm | #

John,

Well said.
Hoosier95 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 6:27 pm | #

Domer 03 - point taken. But I want to know, precisely, from all the 'fire him now' fans exactly what play should have been called before the missed field goals; before a perfect pass hits Floyd in the wrong numbers...before the JC fumble.
Every ND fan on earth was hoping that JC scrambles for the TD, and thrilled that he had the chance to do it! The fact he got creamed doesn't lessen the fact that, if he waltzes in, like we thought he would, this comment would be moot. I just can't reconcile myself to the fact that we'd trash a fellow domer, who's been coaching for thirty years, and not realize that we're inches from beating Navy by 20+. Should we have beaten them? Absolutely! Am I pissed? You bet! But damn boys, these are our guys! Why do you think it's that damn easy to do?
Tennessee Domer '78 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 6:31 pm | #

Tenn,

We're all ND people here. I feel a great connection to the people I graduated with and even to those who graduated before and after me whom I will never meet. Same with subway alums.

That does not mean that I can't criticize someone for being less than excellent at the job they are given. Domers hold themselves to high standards - hence CW saying 9-3 isn't good enough.

I don't feel like I am betraying CW by saying any of this. If I had him in front of me I would say the same things - I might chose my words more carefully, but the substance would remain.

You are correct that if JC gets in this is a convo we wouldn't be having... at this moment. But look back over the season. You can say the same thing about "if Forcie doesn't scramble up the middle for 6,000 yards untouched and a TD" or "If Kamara doesn't slip in the endzone against USC"... this is precisely the point of the post. "shit happens" seems to be a sort of theme and many of us who hold Domers to high standards would like to turn the page to a next script.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 6:42 pm | #

John:


Great post. Many people forget that JoePa had four losing seasons in five years at the end of the 1990s into the early part of this decade. His teams were awful and many wanted hin fired. Even now, during the past five or so yesrs he has had 30 plus players in some kind of trouble. Around here some call it State Penn instead of Penn State.
pennsyalum | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 7:06 pm | #

A few quick comments on day 2.

1. Everyone needs to read Resurrection, about Ara taking over in 1964. There are so many comparisons with the current situation, but I would like to focus on how many out of position, or rarely used players, such as Teo as outside linebacker instead of middle linebacker, Harrison Smith playing a horrible Safety position, etc. Also, after 3 horrible coaches, Brennan, Kuharich and Devore, Ara restored ND. Just like after Davie, Ty and Weis another coach can compete asap.
2. aaronb, your note on the 8-4 seasons. First, 1980, the last year of Devine, was 9-2-1, so above 8-4. Also, Lou Holtz had only 3, not 5 of those years, and that includes the 8-4 1987 team, that was a huge step above the 5-6 team his first year in 1986. Finally, and most importantly, you can pick a timeframe and make it look good or bad. Such as after Lou, we have not been good. What you did was ignore the Ara and Devine years, except Devine's last 2 years, and factor in all of ND's horrible coaches (outside of the leahy-ara coaches) and only include Lou as a good coach. You should be honest. If you include part of Devine and Faust, include all of Devine as well as Ara. Or start with Lou and include Davie, Ty and Weis. If you use either of these routes, your list looks very different.
For everyone's info, since Jesse Harper in 1913, teams with a .667 win percentage or less.
Harper- none
Rockne- once-1928 (5-4)
Hunk Anderson- once-1933-(3-5)
Elmer Layden-once 1934 (6-3)
Leahy-once 1950-(4-4)
After Leahy before Ara (brennan, kuharich and devore) 1954-1963, only 1954,1955, 1957 were above this. this is very similar to our current predicament of 3 horrible coaches and the president of the university (such as Malloy) ruining ND football.
Ara- none
Devine- once 1979- (7-4)
Faust- all 5 years from 1981-1985
Holtz- 3 times- 1986 (5-6), 1987- (8-4) and 1994 (6-5)
Davie- 3 times- 1997 (7-6), 1999- (5-7), 2001 (5-6)
Willingham- 2 times -2003 (5-7), 2004- (6-6)
Weis- 2 times (not counting this year)2007- (3-9) 2008- (7-6)

Everyone can use their own judgement, but this seems to me like the beginning of a new era, just like the 1950's led to Ara and Devine and eventually Lou. We just need the right coach.

Outside of Brennan, Kuharich, Devore, Faust, Davie, Willingham, and Weis, our coaches have had a combined 8 years below .667 winning percentage with 3 coming from Lou, and 1 is equal to that and right before a national title, and one was at the beginning of his coaching career at ND. This includes all coaches after Rockne, this includes all of our major coaches, etc.
Make your own determinations. We are not on the right path, but this has happened before and we can correct it. Ara was from a smaller school too.

By the way, what about Jim Harbaugh. Rubs it in the nose of the skunkbears, has done well at stanford with recruiting limitations, and has a signature win versus a good USC team.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 7:14 pm | #

Anon, what makes you so sure Te'o is out of position at outside LB?
Craig | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 7:23 pm | #

outside linebackers are to primarily blitz, and cover tight ends and rb's after they cross the line. middle lb is team leader and is after the ball. teo is after the ball-
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 7:35 pm | #

If you look up a couple comments Anonymous makes a startling revelation that some people simply never seem to get, but he clearly does.

Bad head coaches lose lots of games.

Good head coaches win lots of games.




We do not have a good head coach.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 7:44 pm | #

While I agree with the majority in Jay and Dylan's postings, winning out saves Charlie.

We need a good hire, and were one not available, I would rather take our lumps next year.

The opportunity cost is too important.

I might add I'm 57 years old so one cannot accuse me of excessive patience.

I also might add I had an important social function on New Years Day 1989. I abjured, stayed home and watched our last NC game.
True brilliance on my part.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:08 pm | #

If you are still a Weis apologist at this point:

Drink out of the tub of green Kool-Aid on your right, and go quietly lay down in the old Red Field.

The spaceship is coming to take you to Faustu. Make sure you are all wearing your black Adidas so Faustu can identify who you are.

Mommy, make it stop.
Put the Billboard back up | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:15 pm | #

Why do people keep bringing JoePa up as if his situation is similar to Weis'? Paterno has 5 undefeated seasons and 6 one loss seasons under his belt. 75 % wins in 44 years. Hardly the same.

And as far as this being a better Navy era than years past- yeah that's true. But let's be real, they've beaten LA Tech, Western Ky, Air Force, Rice, SMU, Wake Forest and now the Irish. They're decent. Weis can't beat a decent team.
Mike | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:30 pm | #

I didn't cherry pick any stats anon. I simply stated the records since 1977. 32 consecutive years.

However I see you are one to quickly counter with Rockne and Ara. They were great no doubt I agree. However at what point do we stop holding coaches to the mythological standards of 50 60 70 years ago? We pushed out our last 3 NC winning coaches.
Aaron b | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:31 pm | #

Aaron B,

I think most if not all folks on this blog want Charlie to succeed... and to be honest he is probably a victim of his own recruiting success..
He has proven that ND can recruit, can have more talent than the other guy, can still graduate football players.... what he hasn't done is use all this talent to beat anyone..

I am not calling for a NC.. but losing to Navy twice at home.. if this is not failure than where do you set the bar??

Tenn -- 1st and goal at the 2.. those 4 plays could have been the worst in CW's history if it was not for the fact that they were totally predictable.. I called every one before they ran it...

I love the Ian Willimas comment -- it's the big bad wizard being exposed as the "little man behind the curtain"... sorry just don't see the substance behind all Charlie's words...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:46 pm | #

I just cannot understand why we can't run the ball, at will, up the middle behind our bigger, faster, stronger line...Forget the schemes at fourth and inches. Push it over -
Tennessee Domer '78 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:50 pm | #

Dan Devine won One NC, in 6 years. Not too shabby. His Achilles' Heel? Following Ara.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:51 pm | #

Didn't the Gator Bowl drop the ACC second-place team and sign an agreement with the SEC? So, won't we be playing one of the upper-tier SEC school that doesn't go to a BCS bowl (which I'm assuming both Florida AND Alabama will do). If Florida and 'Bama go to BCS games, that will leave us with a rematch against LSU.

Also...with all this red zone futility...where the hell has gone the play with the tight end or slot receiver in the back of the end zone? Why has that play suddenly disappeared? I don't remember seeing it since...Michigan?

And, for everyone who thinks that Clausen is the only one out there trying...have you completely ignored Golden Tate?

You know, kind of like how the offense did in the first half yesterday?
MattJ | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:55 pm | #

Tenn

Agreed, but you are contradicting your prior post... it is the playcalling...

We were flat outcoached in this game.. the athletes nearly pulled it out despite that fact.. but with a good scheme would never have been close enough to worry about "sh>> happening" ..
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:57 pm | #

Billboard, Can you stop with the Charlie is fat jokes? It is bad enough to get these types of insults from opposing team fanatics, but from the fans of Notre Dame? BE original man.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 8:57 pm | #

Oh, also...are we certain we'd get Miami in the Gator Bowl if they're still contractually obligated to use the ACC second place? It's looking like Ga Tech could be a possibility (assuming Clemson holds on AND beats them again in Charlotte)...and we're SO good at defending the triple option...I'm seeing the Gator Bowl as being a nightmare.
MattJ | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:01 pm | #

Oh, and we shouldn't chalk the Clausen fumble up to "shit happens". That shit happened for a reason: the Navy defender put his helmet on the hand holding the ball and forced that fumble to happen.

The ball bouncing off Floyd's back and caroming directly into the defender's hand? That's more like "shit happens". The forced fumble was good, hard-nosed, smash-mouth football. I realize we have forgotten what that is over the past few years, but that's what it was.
MattJ | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:03 pm | #

For all of the haters out there, Is not Notre Dame better off today than when Charlie took over for Willingham a few years ago?

The team is going in the right direction, perhaps not as fast as some would like. But, Notre Dame will be ranked in the top 10 to open the next season.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:09 pm | #

I don't think so, jmc. You're right, of course, because it didn't work. But Hughes off tackle from the one ought to work, damn it. It's not the wrong call-
Tennessee Domer '78 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:10 pm | #

Beano Cook, Lou Holtz and Joe Theismann are not exactly mental weaklings and they support Charlie wholeheartedly.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:10 pm | #

Weis Dad

Read this.. re-posted by ND nation, written one year ago..

http://www.ndnation.com/blog/200...ack-fix- it.html
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:11 pm | #

Lou,

Offered no support for CW last night.... said he "felt bad for his family".....

Beano Cook are you kiddin me...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:12 pm | #

What retirement facility did Beano Cook finally show up in? Three Heismans Estates?

Seriously, you're trying to support your arguments with Beano Cook? Please tell me you wake up every morning, look at yourself in the mirror, and bust out laughing. An endorsement from the Joker would carry more weight.
MattJ | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:16 pm | #

JMC, I just read the Mike Coffee (also known as El Kabong) piece. Great writer and deep thinker, no doubt. Plus, he was one heck of a player for Notre Dame. I can understand his frustration, and I mean no disrespect, but good things come to those who wait.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:20 pm | #

Answered my own questions. Gator Bowl still has ACC tie in this year. I presume next year, when they jettison the Big East, too, that we'll no longer have tie-ins with them.
MattJ | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:20 pm | #

JMC, I would put Beano Cook in the living National Treasure category, no joke. Like Howard Cossell, he was popular and unpopular at the same time. When he was gone, sports broadcasting was not the same.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 9:27 pm | #

From the comments above, it seems like people are trying to dissect the Navy loss to determine Weis's role and his future at ND, when maybe we should look forward to Saturday as a gauge. Remember four years ago, when ND blew out Pitt at Heinz Field in Weis's first game as coach? Weis looked like a genius, while across the field, Dave Wannstedt looked overwhelmed in his first game as coach. Now 4 years later the rematch provides us a clear-cut test to see if Weis, with a roster of his own recruits, can duplicate the 2005 victory. He sure better.
Joe D. | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 10:06 pm | #

Yes, Joe D, now we are working with gas.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 10:16 pm | #

ndfan-

"I'm sorry - I expect a lot. But I don't expect Miracles."

You don't expect miracles? You mean like this team actually beating Navy at home? That would seem like a miracle at this point.
Schultz | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 10:22 pm | #

That's a great point, Joe. There are still 3 games to play, and in them might lie Weis' salvation. That's not my opinion -- that's based on what Jack Swarbrick has said. On the day that Weis is announced to be leaving, I'll join in the "who's next" fray. Until then, to be honest, I find it a little boring.

So I thought it would be interesting to look at the relative strengths of Navy and Air Force in the past 30 years. The numbers bear out that Navy is more likely to make "stuff" happen now than during the tenures of Weis' four predecessors. That hardly absolves ND's current coach of the responsibility for losing to Navy. So then I get labeled as a defender of Weis and of mediocrity.

Some folks like to repeat ad nauseum that ND needs a new coach, when what they really mean is that ND needs to win a national title, when that is really not news to any of us. It does not matter what we say, it matters what the team does on the field and, now, what the AD does off the field. BGS is a great site because it analyzes the reality of ND football. Just like it would have been pointless for BGS to break down potential BCS opponents last week, so too it's pointless to break down replacement coaches now. How some people fail to miss that is beyond me.

Again, this is not an apology for Weis. It's my opinion that his teams play hard once they're in trouble, while Willingham's teams seemed to give up. So that's a positive. At the same time, Weis' teams leave way too many points on the field when they're not in trouble. I don't know enough about coaching to say why that happens, but I certainly agree that it reflects poorly on the coach.

My main point is that I don't want another round of firing a coach so as to chase after someone that doesn't want to be at ND. Or to get an outsider that will make a mess at ND, a la Rodriguez in Ann Arbor. The "fire Weis now" crowd has much more confidence in the ND administration than I do. If he's done this season, and there's absolutely good reason for that to happen, then I hope it's also because the right person is waiting in the wings.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 10:28 pm | #

I think we should look to the Pitt game and not what happened last week. I am definitely not on the Charlie Bandwagon, but he is going to be the coach until the end of the year. The good news is, pitt is moving on up the polls so if and that is a big IF we can find a way to win Things can start to look up. I do wonder alot, when was the last time someone wasnt afraid to face our defense. I mean I just keep feeling like our defense is so lame the other teams dont even worry about how to attack. The obvious advantage to this is, you get to spend all week on how to stop our offense. I know that is overstating it, but it just seems like the defense is just trying in most games and not doing. I mean seriously our defense doesnt scare anyone. I like the rest thought Tenuta would be the answer, but he seems to make no adjustments at the half. I remember him beating up the Irish and Brady Quinn and thinking, man I would love to have that guy on our side. I know we switched to a 3-4 scheme but come on this is pathetic. We really need to step up on the defense. It seems like most of the time on first and second down we shut the other team down, then on third and long they stick it to us. I will be real though we are not getting the great D line players other schools get. What do you guys think?
TJ | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 10:54 pm | #

That's all Folks! nuff said.
Sterling James | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 10:56 pm | #

(Here's quote from Eric Hansen of the South Bend Tribune):

If the pressure is squeezing Weis, he certainly isn't taking it out on the rest of the world. Sunday he was classy, poised, pragmatic and ... in full spin cycle.

"I mean, is the glass half full or is the glass half empty?" he said.

Either way, there's something floating in it that needs to be addressed.

(That made me laugh...)
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 11:12 pm | #

TJ, you're right about the defense -- they don't inspire fear in opponents and I haven't seen numbers but it sure seemed like Navy converted on the majority of its third-and-long situations. Some of that may be the talent of the recruits, but as folks have noted the Navy players beat the Irish o-line on numerous occasions, and there's no way that the Navy players have more raw talent.

Hansen discusses the defense situation in the article I linked above. I still hang this loss on the offense, though. Navy is allowing 21 points per game now (ironically, ND is allowing 23). That means the "high-powered" Irish offense is on a par with some of the Navy opponents that Mike listed in an above comment; they're not great teams.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 11:23 pm | #

Oh. My. God.

You impatient, petulant, spoiled brats will be the death of this program.

Enjoy watching ND next year. Clausen and Tate are going to go pro, because why would they ruin their draft stock learning some other guy's offense? Hell, Crist might even transfer — he volunteered to sit behind Jimmy for two or three years when he could have been a four-year starter other places just so he could lead a Weis offense. Then, of course, there's always the possibility that Manti Te'o leaves for his sabbatical and comes back to Notre Dame Stadium wearing #55 . . . in cardinal and gold.

But I'm sure Notre Dame football will instantly become better when Weis is fired. With pixie dust, apparently. We'll win a championship with Michael Floyd playing every position, including offensive line.
INCITEmarsh / Mike Marchand '0 | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 11:29 pm | #

The first and goal on the two "Pitch Left to Hughes" was one of the most god awful calls I have ever seen.

It made absolutely no sense.

First, I can only assume Riddick was taken out for the "power back" in Hughes (although "slow and heavy" might more accurately describe him than "power.") After watching Riddick take us down to the goal line on the drive, I definitely question this decision, "power" or not.

Second, if Hughes WAS brought in for "power," why was a sweep called? Say what you want, but Riddick is undoubtedly better suited for such a play call.

Third, regardless of whether or not Hughes or Riddick was in at tailback, why in the hell are we calling a sweep anyway? We drastically outweigh Navy's defensive line..why run a play that plays to their strength (being quick)?

It may sound fickle, but this play call is what brought me on to the "Fire Weis" bandwagon. I still cannot think of one reason to call this play. It was just god awful.
DisgruntledFan | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 11:29 pm | #

I was afraid of Pitt's freshman running back before, after all, look what freshman qb's do to our defense. Now I have to admit no one has been able to stop him, so nothing makes me believe we will. I wonder what great defensive scheme we will have for Pitt? Just some gut wrenching questions for the upcoming week.
TJ | Email | Homepage | 11.08.09 - 11:36 pm | #

Jesus Blinking Christ. Why is Lou Holtz a part of that travesty that is ESPN?

ESPN is having mock court sessions to argue different subjects??? I just wanted to see the final box score and I see an article named "The Fianl Verdict." Hey, someone is writing about Weis and his future. Ok, I'm interested.

No, it's a mock court setting with that jag off Reece Davis in a freaking judges robe.

Did Lou not manage his finances? Why is he a part of that abomination? I stopped watching Sport Center almost 2 years ago. I stopped watching the Sunday morning NFL show at least 5 years ago. And I've weened myself off of Baseball tonight once I got a dish and then had access to the MLB Network. Its been years since I've watched that tool Corso on the Saturday morning CFB show.

Besides their foundation of viewers( those that are mentally retarded and/or in prison) do normal people with at least an 8th grade education watch that station anymore?

Please Lou, I'm begging you. Quit the job. You are a proud man with a great history and a loyal following that would take a bullet for you if it was required. Why would you allow some network assclown put you in a position like that?

Lou, you're not a fool. Why let them put you in a position of looking foolish, regardless of the topic?

Quit the gig Lou! Quit it NOW!!!

Sorry. I had to vent.
President Rome | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 12:25 am | #

i just got word from my buddy in one of the halls that he heard at least one current player says he wants brian kelly in as coach. curious whether or not this distaste of charlie is shared with other players...
SanJoseIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 12:35 am | #

Charlie, I'm done defending you. I've tried to be as reasonable as possible - neither a "hater," nor an "apologist." But you know what... No Excuses. It's not a catchy slogan, it's the title of your damned book, Charlie.

I hate to think that we're back to not having a clue where the hell our program is going, but I'm all-but-sure we're there... we're looking for a new head coach again. After '07 I said "it shouldn't have been THIS bad, but I'll give you a pass." After '08 I said "this kind of collapse is unacceptable. They're still young, but this is strike 2 - firing you would be too rash; there's just enough improvement to warrant 1 more shot." You just blew your last shot, Chuck. Your only possible hope is that you can win out and scare the administration into NOT firing you. I'm still gonna root my heart out for this team, but I've been waiting 3 years for us to turn the corner, and we just haven't. Charlie, you just made me lose hope in you, probably for good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l...h? v=lrYqHeH_Pk8

The above is what I thought of after this... this... I can't even bring myself to call it a game -- this $#!t-sandwich of a performance. For those of you not metaphorically-inclined, ironically enough, the skinny kid in the video is Charlie, walking in over his head & screwing things up, while the big guy is me... average ND fan staring reality in the face and feeling totally helpless against it.

Our Lady of Victory,
Pray for us...
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:07 am | #

How does everyone feel about Gruden?Not a players coach, but the kind of hard nosed, tough guy that would take personally losses like the ones that have become commonplace under Charlie. I can't even begin to think how saturday happened, there is no excuse for losing that game. Swarbrick needs to look replacement regardless of the rest of the years results. Pitt is over rated, and beating them at home would be nice but it's no signiture win. While Chuck has zero signiture wins, he is full of losses that should never happen. He does not fit any mold that this university holds dear. He's got a diploma from the school, and knows it's history, but that is where his usefulness ends. Make the choice now, take the recruiting hit, hire a superstar coach quickly......get rid of everyone on the staff but Polian. Five years, talent is up, performance flat. Leadership is the problem. When subordinates do not perform to expectations, it's the bosses fault. Simple concept, in fact I think there are books about it? Read one Charlie.
IraqDave | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:08 am | #

GoldenStateDomer - [re: diesel....speaking of religious campus programs...any thoughts about Mendenhall?]

I like Bronco.. he takes average recruits and makes them perform about thier talent level - week in and week out.

However all that said - He consistently has one of the oldest teams in CFB. A large portion of the BYU players do leave for thier mission trip. So Bronc has a strady stream of 21 year old sophomores coming through the door. Those guys generally are more better developed and more committed than your average 19 year old sophomore.

Also, since he a devout Mormon leading the top Morman University in the land - I'd find it hard to see him go anywhere - even if the NFL comes calling.

1. Bill Cowher
2. Gary Patterson
3. Chris Peterson
4. Charlie Strong
5. Bill Muschamp - I know he is UT's coach in waiting but if MB doesnt give up the reins after 2010- he is free to go.

Would be my top five picks...

Throw in Chucky and Brian Kelly in and order after that ...
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:23 am | #

I love all of these comments about the guy we should get next - as though Notre Dame can just pick the guy they want. Last time, we picked Urban Meyer. But Meyer picked the relaxed academic standards, a well-stocked squad, junior college transfers, and the morally casual attitude of Florida.
Players do the same thing. People who think that every kid's knees turn to butter at the mere mention of Notre Dame are projecting their own love of the Irish on a world where ND is a tough school that just now back to even showing up on the top players' radar. Fans who think ND can go back to the days of Ara and Devine forget that the world changed 30 years ago, when cable TV meant you could be on TV and get noticed even if you went to a smaller school in a city that was more fun than South Bend.
Notre Dame came out flat because they were playing Navy. Navy came out sky high because they were playing Notre Dame. That's probably also why Navy lost to Temple - looking past them to ND. If you think Navy's coaching staff didn't tell their kids to be ready for Temple, you're foolong yourself. If you think 18-22 year old men will do whatever an older adult tells them to do, you're just a fool.
Charlie didn't miss field goals or fumble the football on the goalline or have his back turned on a touchdown pass that turned into an interception. Players lost that game.
Should Weis have had them ready? Yes. But the genius who had Navy ready was an idiot the previous game. Pete Carrol has never faced a team with more talent than he has - and yet he loses games, too. Brian Kelly just held on to win against a .500 team reeling after the death of one of their best players. Do you think he failed to get the team ready for that nationally televised game?
We all want Notre Dame to be in the hunt for a national championship every year. They are just getting back to that point right now, and MOST Notre Dame fans think changing head coaches is all we need to get over that hump. I think changing head coaches will mean five more years of building up until everyone wants to fire the next guy.
RVLambo | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:25 am | #

*BGS readers and staff - Please forgive the mess of typos in the previous post... it's a combination of a new keyboard and that it's 1:20am CST and I have to be up in 3.5 hours.
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:25 am | #

The comments here never cease to amaze me. On the one hand, Charlie Weis has single-handedly destroyed ND football, was responsible for the Holocaust, personally ran onto the field to cause Clausen to fumble, and oh, by the way, is fat. On the other hand, he's blameless of losing to Navy because some breaks went against the boys, things like fumbles just "oh shit" happen, and gosh darn it, he tries hard, so one day, if we wish on a star hard enough, Charlie will win us a NC! And if he doesn't, it just wasn't meant to be, because it's too hard to win now that it's 2009 and not 1966...

Weis is neither the worst thing to happen to ND football (that would be Willingham) nor is he a "success" who's going to take us to where we want to go, AND YES, WHERE WE BELONG, the top of the football food chain. This isn't reminiscing about the 40's--I'm 33. So we can't recruit thugs and murderers--I've never bought the idea that one must be stupid to play football. Wouldn't a talented kid who is SMART be better than one who is stupid? So we have to work harder to get good kids--so what? Weis has proven it can be done, despite the whining we heard from Davie and Willingham about how hard it was. So for that, I can thank him.

That said, this collection of talent we've put together should be able to run on "auto" and beat Navy. All the "it was a couple of bad plays" or "shit happens" talk (except from Jay, because I don't believe this was his msg at all) is simply excuses. Sure, players are responsible for executing, but coaches are responsible for putting them in position to execute. We should *NEVER* be in the position where a couple of bad plays cost us the GAME against Navy. My wife put it well: "If we play like crap against Navy, then maybe we don't cover the spread...but we shouldn't be LOSING to them, ever."

I've always felt that regardless of record, if we showed consistency and improvement, I'd be satisfied--my reasoning being that if you have those, the record will come. Well, I was wrong. The season up to this point had only shown us that we were CAPABLE of greatness, but unable to be consistent; we COULD hang with better teams (USC, even though they are down), but had to escape against lesser ones. The optimists wanted us to believe the team was learning to win, that we won those games we would have lost in previous years. And to an extent, they were right. But it was bound to catch up with us if we didn't improve on that--and it did. Against Navy. Again.

I've always been a believer in improvement being the indicator of keeping or letting go of someone. Let them show you they are improving. This was the "show us" year. Well, it's been shown--while we have the talent, and it manifests itself in flashes of brilliance, we don't have the right director to put it together consistently. Weis has hit his ceiling: flashy but inconsistent offense, inattention to defense, capable of coming thrillingly close to being good, but not getting it over the top. Doesn't matter how much you want him to be "the guy", he's not.

All the rest of the season will show us is what has just been confirmed. Maybe we'll beat Pitt (Wannstadt is just as inconsistent) but then we'll lose to UCONN or Stanford. Or we'll win, and it'll be due to a mistake by the opposing team in the last minute or a lucky bounce. That's why I don't consider wins and losses the be-all, end-all of the discussion. In the Army, we don't consider "luck" an acceptable mission planning factor. You do everything you can to take "luck" out of the equation. Winning on a lucky bounce isn't "finding a way to win" any more than a ball bouncing into the defense's arms on a carom is "finding a way to lose." Perhaps they will beat Pitt by 30, handle UCONN and Stanford by decisive scores, and I'll change my mind. But I doubt it, and I really doubt anyone actually THINKS that will happen, outside of Weis's Dad and StadiumDudeChip. Wishful Thinking =/= actual perception.

Don't get me wrong, I want us to win the remaining games, and by a lot. But the hand has been shown--we see what Weis is capable of, and he has hit his ceiling. Now is the time for the admin to be working the phones overtime to get Kelly or Patterson lined up, preferably in that order. We need a coach who can take the talent here and win quickly, not spend 3 years installing a new system. We need a coach who maximizes talent, wins games they should win (and by a lot), wins games they shouldn't win on paper, and pushes his teams.

Gruden: Pro coach with complicated offensive scheme who had his best success with someone else's players...haven't we seen this before?

Meyer: He's not coming, so forget it. And I wouldn't want him if he begged. Clearly doesn't get ND if he lets his players get away with eye-poking, AK-47 toting, drug smoking, and everything else that program in Gainesville has had. Totally unacceptable at ND, and would be a clear indication that we'd sold our soul. I'm not interested in winning like an SEC team. Many ND fans are fans because ND stands for something different, for holding athletes to the same standards as regular students in the classroom, and ensuring they are good people as well as running good 40 times. Vote NO on Meyer.

Pedersen: Consistent winner at Boise St., won the games he shouldn't, this is true. However, as someone pointed out: so did Koetter and Hawkins before him--those haven't worked out so well. Color me skeptical.

Charlie Strong: If ANY coordinator at any level deserves a shot at a HC job, it's him. I really want him to succeed, and it's a crime he hasn't been given a head gig. That said, he hasn't had a head gig. Can he do it? Do we want ND to be the place to find out? I don't think so.

Gary Patterson: Wins games. Averages 10 wins a year at TCU, despite being 5th fiddle in recruiting in-state behind UT, Tex Tech, aTm, OU (not in-state, but a lot of talent from Tex goes there), and every other program that goes to Texas to poach. Still, hasn't gotten over that Utah hurdle, yet--hasn't taken TCU to the BCS, yet. My #2 choice at the moment.

Brian Kelly: Former Defensive Coordinator. Won NC's at Div II Grand Valley State. Took Central Michigan to a MAC Championship in his 3rd year. Didn't coach the bowl, because he was already named coach at Cinci, won that bowl game coming in cold as the coach. In 2 full seasons, has won 10 games and 11 games, with a conference championship and BCS berth. He's 9-0 this year with a backup QB playing at levels near Jimmy C. While I'll grant that Mark Dantonio left him a good base to work with, Cinci still isn't ND level talent wise. An important note: rumor has it that he wants the job. He's a proven winner at multiple levels of college football. He's done it with all levels of talent. He's won conference and NATIONAL championships. Talk about it being Div II all you want, but remember Phil Jackson won CBA titles before joining the Chicago Bulls in his first NBA coaching job. Kelly's doing pretty well in a BCS conference right now. I think Kelly is our Phil Jackson. My #1 choice.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:29 am | #

"We all want Notre Dame to be in the hunt for a national championship every year. They are just getting back to that point right now, and MOST Notre Dame fans think changing head coaches is all we need to get over that hump. I think changing head coaches will mean five more years of building up until everyone wants to fire the next guy."

You REALLY think ND is getting back to the point of being in the NC hunt? Really? With us losing to Navy? NC candidates don't lose to Navy, my friend. They just don't. Not cover the spread? Sure--but they don't *lose*.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:35 am | #

I can't fathom what it's like to be Tausch today. He didn't have it Saturday. That's fine though. ND should not be trying to beat Navy with field goals.
The ineffectiveness in the red zone was just shocking. It's like they didn't practice during the week.
One of the missed field goals was the football gods. When it's 4th and under 5 and you average more than 5 yards per play, you go for it. 42 yards is far from a gimme in college.
In hindsight, the defense was not that awful. The first TD featured a short field. No excuse for the second, but the D seemed to tighten up in the second half. A big part of a good defense is a good offense though. ND's first two offensive possessions served only to give Navy good field position.
I also can't help but wonder if Robert Hughes is not 100%. He's been used heavily over the past several weeks and seems to have lost some of his get-up-and-go. He was never a speed guy, but he seemed unusually sluggish.
Great to see Floyd back. He made a couple mistakes that can be attributed to rust, but it bodes well for the rest of the season. One gripe though. Tate put the team on his back several times in Floyd's absence, yet was not given a real chance to shine until it was too late. Charlie should know better than anyone that you have to use all your weapons.
Buddy | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:37 am | #

Diesel:

"1. Bill Cowher
2. Gary Patterson
3. Chris Peterson
4. Charlie Strong
5. Bill Muschamp - I know he is UT's coach in waiting but if MB doesnt give up the reins after 2010- he is free to go.

Would be my top five picks...

Throw in Chucky and Brian Kelly in and order after that ..."

Cowher? Really? Why? Sure, he's a defensive coach, but he's still a purely pro coach. I don't think that's what we need.

Strong/Muschamp: Might be great guys, but as I said before, they're coordinators, not HC's. Need someone who's won doing the whole thing, not just half the job.

Peterson: Again, not impressed with former Boise St. coaches in their next stop. I need to see more than success at Boise State. That program is bigger and better than the coach.

IraqDave: See my comments on Gruden--I simply don't think he's a college coach, and I don't think he was all that in the pros, either. Sure, he's got that fire we'd all like to see (we think), but it's fairly obvious now that Dungy left him the keys to the porsche, he just drove it. That defense won that Super Bowl for Tampa Bay, and Gruden is the offense guy.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:41 am | #

The post's analysis is accurate, but pointless. With the talent differential on the field, the score shouldn't have been close enough to matter.

So...Stoops or Harbaugh or Kelly or Sarkisian or Gruden.

The difference now from a year or so ago is that there are possibilities out there now. And a coach who takes the job inherits players now.

I stuck with Weis because you couldn't tell what he was about until his guys were in there and until the talent level picked up. There's a lot of talent out there now. But there's no emotion and no discipline.

Sean had it early. This isn't the NFL. This isn't a chess game. These are kids playing a game who need to be fired up and motivated with a generally more intense atmosphere than I see from Weis now. He's not even the same coach from a few years ago. Lazier in press conferences, flatter in post game comments, etc. Now, we're seeing Weis' attitude turn sour -- and a little bit hostile. "I'm not going to change the way I coach." OK. Then you'll be an NFL OC or you'll retire. Sorry. You didn't get the job done.

We heard for so long how arrogant and smug Weis is. I never saw it, really. But I'm seeing it in his team. And you can't be hungry and aggressive when you're arrogant.
John Scott Lewinski | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 3:03 am | #

"Stoops or Harbaugh or Kelly or Sarkisian or Gruden."

Stoops is going to leave OU? Doubt it. Let's be real here.

Harbaugh: I could buy it, but we've gone down the Stanford rabbit hole before, and from what I understand he runs a particularly cheap-shot taking, nasty program. Of course, that could be what we need...

Kelly: My vote, I'm on record with that.

Sarkisian: One year is not enough to judge.

Gruden: No.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 3:20 am | #

Im afraid already like last year, these people will be turning down the job before its even offered to them. That is probably the biggest reason Charlie is still our coach.
TJ | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 3:31 am | #

"aaronb, ndfan, Louie you guys are doing a great job of defending ND right to be a mid-level team. Why don't you guys just start working on a new contract extension for Chuck? because the way you guys spin it we are as good as we can expect to be.
Not that Tom "

I would not include Louie here. Louie is kind of in the middle. I don't always agree with his posts but his posts are always well thought out and reasonable.

Someone mentioned Davie, Willingham and Weis being great hires at the time they were hired. Of these 3, I personally only CW would be a great hire and it looked that way for 2 years until the bottom fell out. Even during his first 2 years, there were signs of cracks. The OL was never that good and the D was mediocre. They got blown out much more than ND did historically in any 2 years including the years of bad coaches.

Someone said "shit happens" and referred to Floyd pass in back and other snafus. Yeah, things happen but Navy averaged 6.73 yards per play and 6.1 YPC. All the others are aberrations. This is consistently bad. All the defense this year has been consistently bad. What has been the highest ranking D since Weis has has been here? Something like #50? It is an aberration when a Weis team rises above mediocrity. At the beginning of the year Weis himself said, "Show me". So far he has shown me that he may be a good man but is a mediocre coach. Maybe an NFL OC job would suit him well.

Let's turn the next page to get a new coach. The new slogan should be "greatness happens".
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 3:37 am | #

Jay

I understand you have a "real" life. Thanks for posting when you do.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 4:10 am | #

if its true that players are talking about who they want as the next coach, with 3 games left, this season is screwed.

that might be the most amazing thing i have read here in a long long time.

i hope that is not true
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 5:19 am | #

Players win game, but as Bear Bryant said, "Good coaches prevent losses."
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 7:50 am | #

GREAT ARTICLE SON!

WHEN'S HE LEAVIN & WHO'S COMIN'?
jim ND1966 National Champs | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 7:54 am | #

National TV, Primetime this Saturday... the Irish will show up for the first time in 5 years and beat a quality opponent... precision play calling, execution, stellar defense and no personal fouls...

It is almost laughable just writing it....

Remember the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result..

These final three games will tell the tale.. I just expect more insanity.. and the same dismal results against 3 decent opponents...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:39 am | #

All I heard all day from folks was how embarrassing it was to lose to Navy. Sure, I guess it is. But I was/am floored by how fundamentally sound that Navy team is. They execute! The score when they need to! They tackle! They stop their opponent from scoring when they need to! That's good football.

The fact that my wife - who hates football - can call ND's offensive scheme before it transpires (Oh, just do that little floater thing to Tate in the endzone corner; how about Hughes around the left side; what about a jump ball to Rudolph in the corner) shows how stale we've become.

We have some great talent, but its being squandered by unimaginative and indifferent coaching. The only thing we can hope for at this point is to strive to be more Navy-like: Scrap the super star bullcrap, all this trophy talk. Go out and beat your opponent like your life depends on it. Like there is no tommorrow.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:44 am | #

All these people want a new coach and so do I,but who wants to come to ND? If Weis wasn`t so arrogant,I think he could coach,but it appears that he thinks because he calls a play it will automatically work.He seems to think that the opposition is not as intelligent as he is.He should have lerned by now,ND isn`t a few steps ahead but behind.We run our slowest back wide at the goal-line and then the fade.
The best example of play calling is when our defender took an inside move on the goal line and stuffed a play in the backfield.He did the same thing on the next play and Navy let him go and ran one gap over and scored.
They constantly had us outnumbered at the point of attack. I feel sorry for our defense.They played hard but our staff did not prepare them to win this game.
irishjh2 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:44 am | #

I'm not a Gruden fanboy, but I think the he-won-with-Dungy's-players bit is misleading. After all, he won his superbowl against the Raiders -- a team that he had built all on his own. He's not exactly the lucky caretaker some seem to suggest.
Golddust | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:45 am | #

I appreciate Jay's thoughtful analysis and aaronb's summary. Plus I'm a weenie, I can't stomach the idea of firing a domer, esp. the one that chewed out my kid for driving across his - strike that - the University's grass median to get to the practice field for a Night Flag Football game.
onehipdad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:49 am | #

To me the beginning of the end was in '07 when Weis put Jimmy Clausen in for Demetrius Jones during our first game vs. Georgia Tech (30-3 loss).

He put Clausen in while having no concept that our offensive line was terrible thus making it impossible for the best pocket QB in the world to be succesful.

Also, Weis was apparently so impressed with John Tenutas defense during that game that he hired him as DC. Why he was impressed by a defense shutting down the offense of a 3-9 team is anyones guess....

Since that day, today was a forgone conclusion.
Jimmy Two-Times | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:53 am | #

I am not quite sure I understand how the defense and Charlie lost this game. Defense gave up TD's on first two drives, made adjustments and then forced punts on 5 of 6 remaining series.

Not sure how Claussen fumbling on 1 yard line, interception off the back of our receiver on the 1 yard line, and two missed fg's (after hitting 14 in a row) are on Charlie.

In terms of red zone, I believe we scored on 88% of red zone possessions going into this game, so not sure I would consider that a failed red zone offense.

I don't know whether or not Charlie can ever lead us to an NC. However, the problem I have is that once the issue was blown up last year, I knew it was the end. No matter how great a season we had this year, every time a close game/loss happened, the doubters would fill the airwaves with fire Weis talk. It's really hard to be successful when your fan base is just waiting for a mis-step to call out the mob.

Game on Saturday reminded me of Florida/Ole Miss last year. Sometimes nothing goes right and you lose.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:54 am | #

we have not had a running (power) game in 5 years, (never will with CW)hence the problems in the red zone (short field), drive for show, putt for dough, we're all glitz. give up 60lbs/man advantage by turning it inot a touch football contest. Kudos' to the Midshipmen, they kicked butt. Yes the passing attack is great & it gives the impression of a great offense, but the truth is we have scored a 'great' many points this year, Sorry Charlie, but i root for the team in spite of your ability to out think the opposite head coach.
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:09 am | #

Michael, the issue for Weis has to be the complacency of his teams when they aren't in a bind. I remember groaning when ND took at 13-point lead against Purdue and the camera showed a smiling, content-looking Weis on the sideline. Likewise, I can't believe that Weis wasn't a little too up based on the win over WSU. The NBC guys or maybe the sideline reporter quoted the Navy coach as telling his team that he wanted all business until the final whistle, even with a 2-TD lead. The way that Irish players looked surprised to get hit hard by Navy, or seemed to whine to the refs about perceived penalties (think Blanton on the long TD pass or Floyd on several fades to the end zone) HAS to reflect on the coaches.

As for red zone offense, ND currently ranks 75th in Div IA. They are slightly ahead of Florida, but when the head coach is the offensive coordinator and says the things he says about his skills and those of his players, it's disappointing to say the least.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:15 am | #

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Charlie is doing a great job recruiting and his players love him. All you that say fire charlie - you realize if he goes, then so do clausen, tate, rudolph, and floyd. With sharpley finally leaving and crist injured, that means starting next year with a new offensive line and no QB - is that REALLY what you people want? Join the real world. Charlie HAS to get one more year.

As for the game this weekend, John Tenuta needs to be fired. The plays on defense were obvious - Teo should have been stalking the RB and NOT the pitchman - in every instance, the pitchman would have been contained to the inside by LBs and safeties if he had been forced inside. Instead, Teo/whoever took the pitchman each time, which allowed the rb/hb to break contain and get big chunks of yardage. If i can see it , then why can't he?

Also, continuing my motto from week 2, robert blanton should have his scholarship ripped away.
Sause | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:26 am | #

I've lived in Tampa through the Gruden era (and the Dungy era, and the Wyche era, etc.). He is not ND. He's an egotistical, condescending control freak who is always throwing others under the bus for his mistakes. He wore out his welcome here pretty quickly, even after the grace period of winning the SB in his first season. That said, he'd be a great guy to just have a beer with. Keep the next coach comments coming, but remove his name from your lists. Just my 2 cents...
domerd | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:27 am | #

From the presser:
"Q. I don't know whether you saw any comments from players after the game, but one of the comments Ian Williams said was they just out-schemed us and I think they just played harder.

COACH WEIS: Well, I didn't read anything as you would imagine, but I did hear quite contrasting answers to the same question. I think that question was presented to Ian (Williams), it was also presented to Kyle McCarthy, and from what I understand, Kyle McCarthy's answer was quite different, where he said it had nothing to do with the scheme. So there's a reason why one guy is a captain and one guy is not."

What an asshole. Winning or losing doesn't give you the right to throw someone under the bus. And if your players are talking about scheme it probably is a poor reflection on the coach.

If you don't agree with the comments just say "I didn't hear that" and speak to him in private.
Mark | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:44 am | #

the fact that Gruden is in the booth and not on the sideline, should tell us alot about his reputation in the NFL.... He's not at retirement age..

I still think Fitzgerald should be in the mix... we need an overachiever..
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:48 am | #

Notre Dame wants to throw Charlie Weis under the bus. But why ruin a perfectly good bus?
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:59 am | #

Louie,

Prior to the Navy game we were at 88% which is about 25th in the rankings.

Point is that fans have very short and selective memories. Most people think our 3rd and long stats are horrible because all they remember are failed 3rd and long plays. Red-zone, same deal. We can't score in the red-zone and the play calling sucks. However, generally the numbers don't prove that.

Same deal with the defense. We gave up two TD drives to start the game and the big pass play on Blanton. Not making excuses, just saying the defense isn't the reason we lost this game. We stopped Navy the entire second half. We lost because of 3 turnovers and 2 missed fg's. All the nonsense about lack of heart, Charlie over-thinking it, not having a good enough run game, whatever. Sometimes you lose games you should have won.

The Irish were fourth in turnovers going into this game. We had three. I guess that means that the team is undisciplined, we have had turnover's all year, etc.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:01 am | #

Michael,

You're essentially taking the "shit happens" approach. The overriding sentiment in the comments, however, seems to be that we are tired of chalking it up to "shit happens" - see my post above about Forcier's run, Kamara's slip, etc. All of these incidents, take individually, can be seen as "shit happens." The aggregated shit, however, demonstrates that CW has become a perveyor of shit.

that is not what most of us are looking for in a head coach.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:16 am | #

that previous comment was from me. Didn't realize my sn wasn't registered.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:16 am | #

Golddust: True, he did make Callahan look somewhat decent by building the Raiders for him, and this despite being saddled with Al Davis. I'll give him credit for that. But I'm still convinced he's a business-like, pro mindset coach. We've had that for the past 5 years--don't think we need more of that.

Also, in relation to your "who wants to come?" question: there's a rumor that Brian Kelly is chomping at the bit for the job. So there's one possible; it's Swarbrick's JOB to go find out who else would be interested. It may not be a job that coaches are going to crawl over broken glass to get to anymore, but it's hardly a dead end nowhere, either. Some coaches still want to win at places where 7-5 isn't acceptable. Find them, Jack, and then pony up the money to get them. Heck, I'd be willing to take Saban if we could find the cash. I'm sure he'd leave Bama, the mercenary.

Sause: Jimmy Clausen should be gone after this season anyways, regardless of what happens with Charlie. I've said it before, I'll say it again: all of you are completely ignoring the impact of the rookie salary cap set to be instituted in the new collective bargaining agreement next year. Leave now, he's looking at $50 million dollars. Leave a year from now, he's looking at 5 mil or so. Simple math. Some of you will rail about how it's wrong for him to leave, but you're being selfish. You want him to lose out on $45 mil so YOU can enjoy another season of him working for free for YOUR entertainment. Personally, Jimmy's crazy if he doesn't leave after this season--win the rest and a bowl game or not, Weis back or not. And we should all wish him well. I wouldn't be surprised, depending on where the draft analysts have him, if Tate isn't gone as well.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:23 am | #

DomerinFlorence, you're dead on. "Shit happens"--2007 USC loses to Stanford, a 40 something point underdog. That's "shit happening", a perfect storm of everything going wrong for them.

ND spends 2009 constantly on the edge of the razor, it's bound to slip. That's not "shit happening", that's a coach not getting us off the edge of the razor. That's the problem. We're not good enough that we can just look at a loss and go "shit happens". There's a consistent pattern of this. It's why we can't identify if we're a good team or a bad team or somewhere in between.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:31 am | #

amen Nate.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:36 am | #

Nate - [Re: Cowher? Really? Why? Sure, he's a defensive coach, but he's still a purely pro coach. I don't think that's what we need.]

I hear exactly what your saying but he is a Super Bowl winning HEAD COACH and this we know for a fact.

[Re: Jimmy leaving after this season and the collective barganing]

I'm glad someone had some sense and finally brough this up!
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:37 am | #

"Shit happens". Nowhere is that truer than in combat. Even the best trained soldiers go into a mission and "shit happens". There's an old saying when you're doing mission planning--"The enemy gets a vote". A good commander or NCO helps his soldiers manage the "shit" and get through it safely. Training (practice and film study) work to mitigate the "shit". Our "enemy" (Navy) through stuff at us that we weren't prepared for, and we should have been better prepared. This is a chronic problem. Relieve the CO and put someone in charge who can get our guys through.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:38 am | #

Diesel: I've brought up the rookie salary cap here at least 3 times in different comment threads, and no one wants to listen. Jimmy is good as gone unless he completely tanks and won't be first-round material. Even with the loss to Navy, you can't blame that on him (great day passing) and he's showing he's got all the tools, including toughness, to win at the NFL level. He will be first round, and he will go.

As for Cowher: yes, gotcha, won the Super Bowl. So did Gruden, and I'm not high on him. When Cowher retired and the new coach (Mike Tomlin) won it so soon, a lot of people wondered why Cowher didn't win more. A heck of a comment, considering winning super bowls is pretty darn hard, but still.

Also, with Mr. "4 rings" at the helm right now, it's hard for me to take "won a super bowl" as a serious resume point.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:44 am | #

Jerry Faust's signature win was against Pitt. (Ranked #1, with Dan Marino, who was on the cover of SI that week).....
Perhaps Charlie can get his signature win against Pitt too.

The loss to Navy was tough to take.

But I am also tired of a new coach every 5-6 years.

So...I am conflicted.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:45 am | #

Due to family obligations, I had to listen to the game on radio. Just watched it last night. Some thoughts - after Parris went down, the refs blew the play dead well before the Navy guy pounced on the loose ball. Everyone else, including Parris, ignored the ball because the play was dead. How do you undo that on replay?

On radio I heard Don Criqui lamenting - no that's too weak - flabbergasted that ND had no D lineman over center, but I hadn't realized just how bizarre our defensive posture was until I saw it. We were inviting Navy to take 5 free yards straight up the middle on every play in the first half. Maybe that makes sense in some D-playbook as a way to defend the pitch, but after having been burned several times by the fullback, we continued to leave the center unopposed even - and here's where it gets hard to type the words -- when Navy went for it on fourth and inches. Dobbs sneak. Unbelievable.

On the Navy pitch, I rewound several plays looking for the guy who was SUPPOSED to cover the pitch man after Manti took out the QB. Couldn't find him. I don't mean someone was out of position; I mean as far as I could tell, NO ONE in that defensive scheme had the pitch man as a responsibility. Result - Navy runs free. Again, unbelievable.

The TD pass was pure lack of discipline on Blanton's part.

Obviously we made some adjustments at the half, though Navy still got far too many yards. Tackling was, as always, abysmal.

On offense, I had not realized just how effective we looked moving the ball up and down the field. But what happened to us in the red zone? After driving with Riddick and short passes, we do the Wildcat. It's just a distraction, and takes us out of our rhythm. That's followed by the usual menu of fades and poorly designed runs. Why not just keep doing what we're doing successfully until the ball is in the end zone? Especially against a team that we can overpower?

"Sean had it early. This isn't the NFL. This isn't a chess game."

Exactly - you just jam the damn ball in if you can, and we can against Navy. But we get cute instead.

Obviously, much of the above is an indictment of the coaching. But the back and forth on Weis is tedious. Barring a complete meltdown (which is possible), I think Swarbrick keeps Weis another year and devotes next year to a serious look at replacement.

For better AND worse, there's a natural arc to Weis's coaching tenure and the Clausen-Tate-Allen offense. First, if Weis goes, probably two of those guys are gone too. Second, even if they stick around, does it really make sense to have those guys learn a new offense their senior season? Think Rich Rod, year one.

Again, from Swarbrick's perspective, assuming that keeping Weis means the offense returns intact, worst case next year we field a tremendously productive and exciting offense with enough skill to overcome some of the coaching deficiencies. Shake-ups on defense are inevitable, and Weis has shown he's willing to do that. We're still probably 9-3, but we're not 3-9.

2011 is the logical year to implement a new system. That's not blind defense of Weis, just reality from an AD's perspective.
Mike81 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:48 am | #

For a guy who wrote a book called "No Excuses," Charlie has a history of making a lot of them when things don't go his way. It's never his fault. He's way too cocky to admit his failures and even losing 15 games in a 2 year span wasn't enough to humble him.

Those are Charlie's shortfalls. That said, he works his ass off for this team. He does things the right way. He's been able to recruit very well withough bending rules. This '09 team is better than the '08 team, which was leaps and bounds better than the '07 team.

If we manage to win out, I think there is no question Charlie will be back and that would be the right decision. Anything less and it's too close to call. I have no problem with firing Weis after an 8-4 season, but who do you like as a replacement? Brian Kelly? What happens when he loses to Pitt? You still like him? Peterson or Patterson? What happens when they don't win BCS games within 3 years? Gruden, another NFL guy? ND is going to be in a tough, tough spot if we lose 4 or 5 games this year. I wouldn't want to be in Swarbrick's shoes.
Buzz | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:54 am | #

I am getting a little sick of the Brian Kelley talk. I know this is probably gonna piss people off, but Kelley is big time pro-choice. IMO, with all that went down with the Obama stuff, I really don't think Notre Dame is gonna want to deal with having a coach so far out there on that issue. It is a Catholic University first and foremost. Just my thoughts.
bk | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 10:56 am | #

Domerinflorence,

Yes, shit happens, and I just don't get that upset at the coach when shit happens. I think your point is valid about there always seeming to be a "shit happens" type play, but that is football, when you are a middle of the road team.

I put the blame on ND fans. First for thinking we would be undefeated this year with an all new sophomore D-line and a linebacking core with one seasoned player, and secondly for talking about BCS games when we had 4 games to play.

I have resigned myself to another 5 years of wandering in the wilderness when our next coach wins big his first year, then collapses for the next year or two and gets fired. That is the joy of the cycle we have created. Maybe if we are lucky, we will bring in an option coach because when you are behind by 2 touchdowns the whole game, we should be pounding it to prove how much bigger we are.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:01 am | #

Wait...now we have to look at the coaching credentials of potential coaching candidates AND their political values? Not only are we going to criticize the product they put on the field, but we're going to worry about which lever they pull in the voting booth?

It's simple enough: You sit down with the coach, say "Here's the money, here's the team, coach them and shut up about politics."
Matt J. | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:02 am | #

bk: And Ara was Presbyterian.

And it's "Kelly". One E. Do you type "Weiss"?

Maybe it's because my wife and I (Protestants) were at ND under the Affirmative Action program (relax, people, that's a joke), but I could care less what a coach personally believes, as long as somewhere within that belief system is a whole lot about WINNING FOOTBALL GAMES, graduating players, and keeping players out of trouble.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:03 am | #

If Weis stays Jimmy stays. All draft boards have him in the mix, but there are other guys ahead of him like Bradford and Colt McCoy. Throw Jake Locker in the mix and someone nobody is talking about yet ala Flacco, Cutler, etc who flies under the radar and Jimmy is no sure fire 1st rounder.

Then factor in the question of whether there will be up to 4 QBs taken in the 1st round and I think it is precarious at best for him right now. He needs Weis to come back as much as Weis needs him to stay if Weis stays.
Hoosier95 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:07 am | #

Nate -

1 Super Bowl as HC vs 4 Super Bowls as an OC makes for an interseting debate.

Regardless - the top three guys on my list are all just 1a - 1c.

I think the only way that JC stays around for another year is if the ESPN hype machine able to create enough controversy by "Brady Quinning" him. You know, the whole hype about him not being able to win a big game. I'm sure they will also bring up the stretch hummer and his 4 championship promise.

The guy is ultra competetive - I'm sure he'll have plenty to think about after the bowl game ...
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:08 am | #

Seriously, on the Brian Kelly issue (and who the hell cares if you spell it right or wrong asswipe), I just don't see where it would line up with the university. ND is Catholic, but if you've had a guy come out and take such a stance as Kelly has done, he could be putting himself out of consideration. Ara may have been Presbyterian, but he never brought his religion into play publicly. He did what you said and shut his mouth and coached football. Kelly has put himself at risk, I don't understand why he would make it known to the world that he is pro-choice, but I know a number of fans that would not be able to support him because of his views. Just stating the facts. It's a debate that should happen, and for the sake of ND maintaining their Catholic principles, it's very conceivable that they would not hire Kelly.
absurd | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:11 am | #

Easy gents - let's keep it friendly and above the belt ...
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:13 am | #

All I was saying guys is Notre Dame will not want to deal with it. The problem with Kelley is he came out PUBLICLY and said what he thought.

I'm not saying he isn't worthy of the job, but Notre Dame went through enough with the Obama stuff and mark my words, if Kelley would get hired, there will be more criticism of the University.
bk | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:20 am | #

I hate being the apologist, but I have never once heard Charlie make excuses for anything. When the entire ND fanbase goes apeshit over the officials in the Michigan loss, we are making excuses for Charlie, not the other way around.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:21 am | #

Sorry Nate...Kelly
bk | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:23 am | #

Michael:

"I think your point is valid about there always seeming to be a "shit happens" type play, but that is football, when you are a middle of the road team."

No, you miss the point. There always being a "shit happens" type play is WHY we are a middle of the road team. Are you happy with being a middle of the road team? If not, then you should reject the notion that that's "just football". A good team overcomes those "shit happens" moments against a lesser opponent.

Anybody who thought we would go undefeated this year was an idiot. Anyone who anticipated we'd lose to Navy would have been considered the ultimate pessimist. And if you blame "fans" for talking about the BCS, what do you say about Weis? He was talking about it, in press conferences, no less.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:27 am | #

No prob, bK. Whether you like him or not, least we can do is spell his name right (that goes for Weis as well). Of course, some people feel that must be the mark of an asswipe...but oh well.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:33 am | #

Notre Dame fans have entered some weird echo chamber regarding Weis being fired...

You guys are convincing yourselves that this is a certainty. Here's some information for you: he won't be. After 2010 maybe, but not this off season.

Jimmy won't leave if Weis returns, he would be fourth or fifth QB selected this year in the draft, first or second next year. No fourth or fifth selected QB is going to earn $50 million, that's just ridiculous. There is no way the admins will allow us to go into next season without Clausen given Crist's serious knee injury.

We have major talent returning next year, you honestly think that we're going to throw that away and rebuild instead?

Stop fooling yourselves. I know it's popular to go on a "fire the coach" rampage anytime a team loses, but it's not happening here. Sorry to disappoint.
moe montana | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:33 am | #

I would like to add Mike Stoops to the conversation for a new coach. Product of Cardinal Mooney High in Youngstown, OH, coached at Iowa, Kansas St and Oklahoma, played briefly in Chicago for the Bears, and has several wins over top ten opponents since he took the reigns at Arizona. He is also one of the best recruiters in the nation, along with his staff. He had a rough couple of years to start but has fought back and has the Arizona program looking up. His current team is second in the Pac 10 and is one of the better teams at being good in all three phases of the game, offense, defense and special teams. He signed a contract extension last year, but hopefully that can be overcome. Not saying he is the best guy out there, but I think he is at least as good as the current coaching staff and he has the balls to win a big game every now and then.
WyoMike | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:44 am | #

I hear Kelly doesn't believe in transubstantiation.
Mike81 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:45 am | #

There is a blue-gray sky above South Bend today. Is that an omen?
Bill | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:45 am | #

"We have major talent returning next year, you honestly think that we're going to throw that away and rebuild instead?"

No, but I'm hopeful. All that talent and we'll go 8-4, 9-3, with the same issues we have this year.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:54 am | #

After getting in my necessary vent & letting my thoughts stew for a while, I'm slightly less pessimistic and trying to be realistic. I have serious doubts about Weis being back next year. I think the team has to win out to save Charlie's job (bowl game just makes things murkier, I'm not even going there yet). With a tough final stretch of games and given the way we've played all year, always on the edge, I don't think 3-for-3 is gonna happen. Not against 2 tough teams on their turf and one on ours that's reeling and scaring the crap out of every good team they play.

As for which way I'm hoping for - one where we surprise people & win out, or one where we drop 1-2 & CW likely gets the axe?... that's as hard to answer as it's ever been for me. But it still comes down to this: I want our boys to win, period. The realist in me doubts that we can finally turn the corner b/c of what we've seen from Weis so far. But if they're able to do it, to play their hearts out and come roaring back from almost-dead, then I'm all for it. And if that saves Weis' job, even if we're still in "purgatory" as some have called it, then so be it. Because if they can rally back and win the last quarter of the season, it will be as much Weis' doing as have all 3 losses.

In the meantime, I'm done debating. Let's see what happens. Come kickoff in Pittsburgh, I'm gonna crack a beer and pretend our boys can hear me through that TV tube, cheering my dumb self hoarse.

Go Irish.
Show me...
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:56 am | #

I just looked at the transcript from yesterday, hoping to find in it something that mitigated CW's comment regarding Ian Williams not being a captain etc.

I didn't find anything that helps me contextualize it or explain it away.

CW's comment is really really bothering me. Suggesting that someone is captain because he tows the party line is not the kind of leadership that will win us football games.

His comments regarding Floyd's ball-off-the-back are also interesting. He comes "this close" to throwing MF under the bus, and then pulls back:

"We were going to throw a pass down to Michael (Floyd), we were throwing a slant down to him on the right inside the 5 yard line where he's coming, and Jimmy throws a perfect throw, and he just missed a signal on the play and he thought it was a different play, and he was actually going to block the corner on the play. We've got pretty simple signals, so I don't -- he just missed it on that one."

Is the veneer starting to crack?
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 12:20 pm | #

Just read on ND site that CW is going to start pointing fingers at the players today at practice.Want to bet on a total collapse? The defense was set up to lose.We let an average FB run for well over 100 yds.That wasn`t the fault of the players. That was the fault of the coach who set the option defense improperly.Guys out of position and not schooled on who was responsible for what back when the play came their way.
irishjh2 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 12:25 pm | #

Being as I have absolutely no input into the employment status of CW, I choose not to comment about this until season's end.

What I do know is that there are a fair number of individuals here that are moaning about how this incredibly tough loss has affected them. I worry more about how this devastating loss has affected this team. If I am not mistaken, there are 3 games left to play and I think it's high time that we all got behind this team and encourage them to finish the season as strongly as possible! They deserve that.

GO IRISH!
WISubway | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 12:30 pm | #

Alright I just commented about how I'm trying to stay neutral, and now I'm gonna sound like I'm a Weis defender...

Florence, I was more annoyed w/ Williams & his comment. I understand that he was upset, and give the kid credit, he made some good plays in an otherwise frustrating defensive effort, but he threw the coaches under the bus on that one. That's not acceptable.

While I'd prefer Weis to just say "no comment" on that one and move on, I don't have a problem w/ him calling out Ian. And no, captains don't just toe the party line - that's not what McCarthy was doing. Kyle was accepting responsibility and not looking to point fingers. I think that's what Weis was referring to.

And the play w/ Floyd clearly looked like miscommunication. It was a shit-happens moment, and I think if you take Weis' comments in context, he goes out of his way to not blame Floyd - 1st game back, did so well, etc, etc.
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 12:35 pm | #

I agree about pulling back on blaming Floyd. I said as much.

Both situations, however, could have been dealt with more tactfully. No comment on the Williams situation and simple "miscommunication" on the MF int.

I don't want to read too much into the situation, but I can't recall CW ever doing something like this in press conferences in the past.

The breaks are beatin' the boys, therefore every little slip up he makes is now under the microscope. It sucks, but it goes with the territory.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 12:45 pm | #

Do you think that the guys on the team are checking this comment board to see if we're turning on one another? To see how our morale is? Do you think they're worried that our Monday productivity at work has been affected by ND's second loss in three years vs. Navy?

I think so. Let's show them that we're more united than ever, ir we ever were united.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 12:50 pm | #

We can all grumble and pose and postulate, but when it comes right down to it, the Charlie decision is not made yet, but I think it will make itself in the next few weeks.

If the Irish win out - especially since that would include a win over at least one highly ranked opponent - he stays. If he loses another game, he's gone.

There is an outside chance he could stay with a close loss to Pitt or a highly ranked bowl opponent - but not both. And I think it would be a very outside chance.

Bottom line - By season's end, I'll bet there won't be much debate about the choice.
RVLambo | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:08 pm | #

It broke my heart to watch Lou doing that bullshit Final Verdict segment.

You could see it in his eyes and hear it in his voice: He agrees with Mark May, but as usual, his E$PN producer wanted him to be the ND defender.

But that was one of the lamest defenses that he could have given. The Lou Holtz I have seen and heard speaks about ND with passion, but in the clip, he had little to no enthusiasm.

And most of all, why would he defend the very administration that kicked him out.

Lou's body language said what his producer didn't want him to: It's time for Weis to go.
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:16 pm | #

usc beat us, oregon beat usc & stamford beat oregon. how could anyone assume we could/would/will beat the cardinals?
brian custer | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:28 pm | #

Arrogance and delusion go a long way in that regard.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:32 pm | #

Red zone efficiency is not just measured by what percent of the time you score. The breakdown of the scoring into FG's and TD's is obviously crucial. I don't have the stats, but just the Navy and Wash games this year show red zone problems.

And I wouldn't just assume that the players all love Weis. I know for a fact that some players (not to mention a bunch of alumni and ex-players) in previous years disliked the guy. I'm sure a lot of players would be upset if Weis were fired. That was true even when TW was fired, if you recall. But assuming Floyd, Rudolph, etc. are all going to transfer is just guessing. These kids aren't stupid- I'm sure quite a few of them have figured out that Weis isn't a great or even a good coach. He consistently loses or struggles to beat teams the coaches of which would kill for his roster. That's the definition of bad coaching. Even assuming that key players would transfer if Weis is fired, why should that deter the PTB from firing him? So he can come back next year with a talented, experienced team and go 9-3? And what if Clausen leaves and Weis returns next year? Consider that we'd be lucky to be a .500 team (more likely a 3 win team or so) without Clausen this year. That's what an offensive genius and a decided schematic advantage will get you.
ndfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:34 pm | #

Hopefully 9-3 happens,
Everyone thinks that Navy is a push over team. Navy has had winning seasons the past 7 years. Yes they are undersized, but they are in good physical shape. Their jobs after college will be to defend this country. Navys defence played better than our offence, bottom line. Turnovers and fumbles killed us.

I am not making excuses for ND, as 2 of 6 in the red zone speaks for itself. The Red Zone offence has been horrible since the SC game. What the heck?.... Weis has become very predictable when it comes to the red zone play calls. Mix it up!

As for all the other crap that is being said, the boys need to rally and beat up on Pitt, UCon, and Stanford to salvage the season.
NOEL | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:36 pm | #

"Stop fooling yourselves. I know it's popular to go on a "fire the coach" rampage anytime a team loses, but it's not happening here. Sorry to disappoint."

I'm willing to bet Weis is axed finishing 8-4 or worse, OR if the bowl game is a blowout. If I'm right, I think the chances of Weis getting axed are pretty good, considering Pitt, Stanford, and Uconn loom. Sorry to disappoint.
ndfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:37 pm | #

Is Archbishop Burke an acceptable candidate as the next H.C at N.D.? How about Rush? Sarah? OY VEY!- - the country's gone mad.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:39 pm | #

Matt, I totally agree. Holtz has been off the Weis wagon for some time now. I can recall two earlier moments on ESPN this year where he slipped up and indicated that. But it was really clear on Saturday. He just loves ND too much to initiate a call for a coaching replacement.
ndfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:40 pm | #

Bring LOU BACK!!!!!!!!
NOEL | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:42 pm | #

Never apologize for working, Jay, as a retiree, I speak for millions, keep dumping those 7.65% into my retirement package.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:43 pm | #

Holtz loves Charlie. I saw the ESPN 2 bit with that the judge and Mark May. Holtz cleaned May's clock pretty good defending Charlie.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:46 pm | #

My reaction to the piece was the Lou was anything but "lacking in enthusiasm", Matt.

Lou gave an impassioned, articulate defense of the University that clearly struck Mark May for its fire-and-brimstone quality. The key to understanding it, however, is that Lou didn't actually talk about CW much at all - didn't defend his coaching tactics, didn't defend his recruiting, didn't say "shit happens."

lou loves ND and that came across very clearly and indeed powerfully in that otherwise ludicrous segment.

It seemed clear to me, however, that Lou's defense was all in the abstract - it was a defense of what the university stands for, not it current coaching staff.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:54 pm | #

CW needs a 5* announcement ala Mike Floyd. That'll keep the wolves at bay.
You play sport, you have a pretty short memory. Ah crap, oh yeah, let's get ready for Pitt.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 1:56 pm | #

For me (1991 alum), I will not be excited about watching another ND game until Charlie Weis is gone. As a matter of fact, I will not set aside the 3 or 4 hours on a Saturday to watch them. It is not worth it. It is with great sadness that I write these words, but they are the truth, and there is less than a 10% chance that this will change under Weis. And even if it did happen, the pace of the change is unacceptable.

Let's face it, a lot of ND fans (me included) wanted Weis gone at the end of last year. That didn't happen, and I really went into this season with an open mind. What exactly has he done to show us that he deserves to come back for a 6th year? The defense and special teams are definitely worse than they were under Ty Willigham....... Yes we have a very good offense, but that's just one third of the equation.....

Also factor in that during '08 and '09, ND has had some of the easiest schedules they have ever had (since I have been a fan anyways), and look at the results.

Time to move on. It has happened several times in ND history that a 1st year coach has acheived great success during his inaugural season. Time to put our hopes into that....
Jimmy Two-Times | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:02 pm | #

How about Jimmy going rogue and calling his own plays in the red zone - call 'em audibles.
Mike81 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:03 pm | #

I can't bring myself to read all the comments, but I scanned through. Here are my thoughts;
I am not a Charlie guy but the next guy is not a clear choice.I am not certain I want a change without knowing who. I didn't see if anyone mentioned it, but what if we win big next week? There is far too much living and dying with each week. If we beat Pitt and then Stanford, that will be two wins over top 10 type teams. Note that I say top ten types. There no longer is a standard top 10. Iowa was as high as 4 yet lost to Northwestern. No doubt in my mind that we would beat Iowa. Navy should have beaten OSU who just pounded Penn State.Navy has as much right as anyone o say what if.
On one day last week Oregon was unquestionably the best team in the country. That lasted for that day only
Lets see what happens this week.
If Floyd turns around he makes th catch. Maybe 5 weeks off dulls senses too.
Never give up. Never!!
canuck 75 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:04 pm | #

While I believe players lost this game, not the coach, a few of you have hit on something that I do find particularly troubling -Charlie's "finger-pointing."
He could have easily also said "shit happens," and handled it in house, but he suddenly wants to publically assign blame. That sounds like desperation.
I thought the comment about Williams was particularly unnecessary, and I don't see where "calling out" a pissed-off player is going to help - unless he has been unwilling to accept blame for doing nothing all year. Weis did say that he would be explaining things to all players without being "condescending and demeaning," but I'm not sure Charlie has that gear.
I guess the bright side would be that it's not likely that Williams play will play any WORSE as a result of being singled out.
RVLambo | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:06 pm | #

When the decision is actually made, there will be 3 to 4 more key chunks of information available.

Charlie must know he's hanging by a thread...we'll also get to see just how much fight he has in him and if he can ever become that fiery motivator he seems to be so deficient in.

It will be an obvious decision to all by that time.

That being said...I would take great satisfaction in putting a dent in Wanny's season this Saturday.
Nicholas Eddie | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:08 pm | #

should Kelly stance or abortion matter? Yes and No.

ND people take pride in having some level of consistency in how they view things.

it would be an issue, and you know there are people ready to drop that bomb soon enough.

Personally, i am prolife, but supported Obama and happy to do so. Last time i checked, abortion was legal in 1973 and obama was still shooting jumpers from the hip back then. Obama did not make it legal and he wont make illegal. Bush had 7 republican appointed SC judges, a huge majority, and notice he never took the issue on.

it would be a issue for kelly, i hate that as its really unfair, but at the same time, i can say it would bother me that he would be on the wrong side of the church's #1 issue.

Kelly's stance might be more complicated that just for or against; he has done many speaking events at mens catholic organizations, so he must have been able to slip by them.
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:08 pm | #

What are we fighting for????

Sometimes I wonder if we really know... as a university and as it's fans...

I find it laughable that people will refuse to watch ND football until Weis is gone... Huh?? Or that the abortion issue would be thrown into this discussion.. huh??

This is a group of kids playing football to have fun and represent the greatest Catholic university in the land... isn't it??

Have we lost our minds...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:19 pm | #

Charlie did take Williams to the woodshed in a very public manner that may not have been the very best way of handling this situation. Charlie would not like Jack Swarbrick to start pointing fingers to the press about his game plans either. But, they have to learn their place and be team players. There is no i in team.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:27 pm | #

I think there is a difference between finger-pointing in front of the media and doing it during film/game review. I believe what Charlie said during his presser is that he will take the blame after the game, but once he sees what happened, the players will know too. I also didn't take the Ian comment as shitting on Ian. Charlie has always been pretty honest in his press conferences, and I think sometimes he is just trying to answer the question.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:29 pm | #

jmc, have you seen the TV ratings lately? They have been going down, but I can see how they will go up when it all gets straightened out.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:29 pm | #

JMC,
I agree, let just win out....

GO ND
NOEL | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:31 pm | #

Its Bush's fault. He built a strong Navy.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:34 pm | #

Next coach?

Hmmm. Young Big East coach known for "doing more with less." Check. History of success at a number of other (smaller-in-stature) programs. Check. Dynamic offense. Check. Are you trembling with excitement just thinking about what a coach like that could do at a program with our stature and recruiting pull? I am. Let the Rich Rodriguez era begin! Oh wait . . . or were you talking about Kelly?
Golddust | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:36 pm | #

Academics: Navy wins, Northwestern wins and Stanford wins....the same weekend.

No need to compromise our standards OR play "holier than thou" when we do lose to an "academically inferior " school.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:40 pm | #

Dick Rod is a good coach. Go over to that MGOblog or whatever it is (the MI equivalent of BGS). It has a great post on recruiting over the last few years. Michigan is going through what ND went through in 2007 and 2008, as recruiting evils are worked out.
ndfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:41 pm | #

Golddust,
I agree Kelly is very interesting,
but that defense is starting to make
me wonder. I've seen UConn play 3
games this year, and their offense is
not what I would call intimidating.
Kelly runs a very exciting offense
that moves the ball quickly, and hits
you from all kinds of different ways,
but who runs the defense? This sounds
too much like what we have right now.
don buczynski jr. | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:53 pm | #

Sorry Golddust, I miss understood
your post. I couldn't agree with you
more though.
don buczynski jr. | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 2:55 pm | #

the tv ratings are down... because NBC is painful to watch... we ought to give up a couple of million..and go the route of the Masters....too many commercials...

Also, think TV ratings would go up if we bought CW some tissue...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 3:04 pm | #

For what it's worth. All this great motivator stuff is highly overrated--sure it works up until you actually start playing--then it's you vs the guy across from you.

When I played(years ago)we couldn't have cared less who the coach was--we were just hellbent on kicking the ever loving s--t out of the guys in different uniforms. That attitude comes from within.

I have no idea how hard ND practices but ours were brutal. 5 full days of hitting. The game itself was a breeze. You motivated yourself or you quickly found yourself on the bench.

The OL and DL played horribly. I still think those chop blocks are intended to injure--so everytime they do it retribution is in order. Can you imagine what a Navy center would look like if he ever did that to Chris Zorich. Zorich didn't need any coach, Holtz, or otherwise to motivate him.

Championship teams play for each other
regardless of the coach.
john | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 3:25 pm | #

John & Dana, spot on.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 4:18 pm | #

John, I will respectfully disagree.

I can only wish a coach who could also be a great motivator like Holtz was running this team this year...

I won't overrate it in the scheme of all that goes into a winning program, but in a game of inches and with so many very close games.....
Nicholas Eddie | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 4:39 pm | #

As my friend Death said recently on NDN, all is not well.

Make peace with your maker Mr. Charlie, your end is nigh.
Ghost of Corwin | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 4:45 pm | #

Saturday pushed us to the back side of the "2nd Orbit" of college football. The great teams now look at us with a more gentle smile, and probably hope (secretly) that we someday pull off an upset (read: Top-20) victory.

Those "traditional" teams having decades of play with relatively little to show for it (read: the Indianas, Rices, SMU's, etc) are now still in the distance behind us, but more noticeable in our rearview mirrors. They no longer are losing ground to us.

If our defense came up short, it did so in lesser ways than in most ND-Navy games of the past quarter century. On the other hand, our offense features players named Tate, Clausen, Floyd, Hughes, and one of the most experienced, and large, offensive lines in Irish history.

Being a military academy, Navy has severe restrictions on the level of athlete it can recruit. In addition, it's academics and overall program requirements reduce the time its athletes can allocate to any sport. Accordingly, even coaches like Faust, Davie, and Willingham would never lose to a Navy team.

Navy has always been the most respected team on Notre Dame's schedule. To this day, every Irish gridder will tell you that the team that "plays the toughest" is the Naval Academy. The enormous diferential in talent, however, will always preclude a Navy victory.

Ergo, logic says ...
FoldingDome | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 4:47 pm | #

as much as this hurts, getting another davie or willingham will only make things worse --buttface

Ummmm, if you can get us another Davie, we are all in!
FoldingDome | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 4:49 pm | #

jmc - I agree 100% Get CW a box of tissues or have Polian let him know when it's time to wipe the snot off your lip.

I've been watching most of this season with one of my best friends who is in the USMC and he put it best when against Navy they showed CW drinking from a water bottle and it pouring down his chin and he made absolutley no attempt to wipe his face - "between that and the snot on his lip against Washington - I have to ask why ND would hire such a nasty slob"
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 5:05 pm | #

Weis' Dad (akaStadium Dude)

"Holtz loves Charlie. I saw the ESPN 2 bit with that the judge and Mark May. Holtz cleaned May's clock pretty good defending Charlie."

Since you sired Charlie, you only see him through shamrock colored glasses.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 5:05 pm | #

FoldingDome -

The idea that Navy has some physical recruiting standards is not 100% true - If the recruit doesnt make the weight/height requirement, they can do what's called "taping out" - which essentially means that if their BF percentage hits a target amount they are still good to go ...
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 5:07 pm | #

I disagree with the Willingham would never lose to Navy. I'm sure he would have in 2007 if he would have been given the chance.
Jerry | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 5:38 pm | #

Tonight I'll sing my songs again,
I'll play the game and pretend.
But all my games come back to me in shades of mediocrity
Like emptiness in quality I need someone to comfort me.
Homeward bound,
I wish he was,
Homeward bound,
Home where the wideouts escaping,
Home where Bon Jovi's playing,
Home where the NFL's waiting
Silently for me.
Silently for me.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 5:45 pm | #

I don't knowo how credible this is but the article says "Unconfirmed sources within the university have leaked that Notre Dame will fire Charlie Weis as head football coach at season's end. The sources named Jon Gruden and Cincinnati's Brian Kelly as Notre Dame's top candidates to replace Weis."

Here is the article.
http://bleacherreport.com/articl...y-top-wish- list

I would hope gruden is not on the list. He was the hottest commodity in the NFL for a couple of years and then became mediocre. Does that remind you of anyone else?
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 6:03 pm | #

"I would hope gruden is not on the list. He was the hottest commodity in the NFL for a couple of years and then became mediocre. Does that remind you of anyone else?"


yeah pete carrol
24hour | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 6:09 pm | #

carroll

oops
24hour | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 6:09 pm | #

well played 24 ... well played
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 6:20 pm | #

nicholas--don't get me wrong, I love coach Holtz and what he did for ND. He is a great motivator for everyone--sports or business.

His reputation was fixing damaged teams.
obviously ND qualified. But Holtz was also like the magician that you never knew where hidden rabbit was. At ND his ace in the hole was Vinnie Cerrato who was absolutely the best recruiter in football, Holtz had them lower entrance requirements to get guys in --marginal guys. He literally had so much talent even he did not know how to get them all playing time.

Yet I saw all this talent play Army in NJ, (thanks to a general) on the 50 yd line. ND barely won--with Watters etc I expected to see a 50 pt win. Squeaker all the way, so I go back to the individual player being responsible.

Holtz comes into a program and changes it immediately--problem is he couldn't sustain it-anywhere he coached.

The administration came down on him and refused to admit the marginals--Randy Moss to name one.

So Holtz knew he couldn't compete with the cards dealt and resigned with a stab in the back from Davie.

Leahy faced the same problem--the administration cut his recruits in half--goodbye Frank.

I'm starting to feel like an old historian now but I still hold to my previous premise that the game is decided by the guys on the field. Those Navy guys played like the Rockne guys and ND didn't.

I have no time for giants in size merely going through the motions when a bunch of tough guys push them all over the field--those Navy DB's hit harder than anyone on ND did for the entire season.

Sorry Nicholas, I sometimes get carried away--I appreciate your comments. Too tired to continue.
john | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 6:20 pm | #

John...I actually think we're on the same page...I'm just holding the coach accountable too. I saw exactly what you saw and described above.

From the head coach on down. the Navy team just plain out wanted it more.

Appreciate your historical perspective...keep it up !
Nicholas Eddie | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 6:34 pm | #

Carroll was never a hot commodity in the NFL. The Pats were always hyped up but never delivered.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 6:38 pm | #

nicholas--thata boy--thanks for giving us old guys an ear--just remember we might be old, But--that doesn't mean we are always right.

ND regardless
john | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 6:48 pm | #

Tremendous play-by-play analysis of every offensive play in the Navy game:

http://www.irishsportsdaily.com/...-breakdown- navy

Each facet (O-line, QB, WR, RB, TE) is analyzed for each play, and it's well worth the read. Goes into detail about our WR's lack of fundamentals, which is not often as easy to see as the OL mistakes. You never get to see the routes they run or how hard they come off the line on the TV copy, especially the ones not involved in the play. Excellent (if not long) article.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 7:02 pm | #

YOu guys make me sick. Weis didn't turn the ball over five times or miss two field goals or call the D plays. IF weis goes then so does clausen tate and all the big name recurits. So let weis go and say good bye to ND football. I still think this year will be grat end the year 3-0 and start towards next year with a big bowl win. IN WEIS WE TRUST. GO IRISH BEAT PITT
StadiumDudeNamedChip | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 7:22 pm | #

If nothing else happens, Tenuta and Brown must be fired. The lack of prep was utterly disgraceful.
lush | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 7:30 pm | #

Thanks for the link, Erik. Somehow that re-hashing is a little easier to take than simply watching the game replay.

Chip, what I'd like to know is what Coach Weis the ND and alumnus thinks of his own performance. This is the man who, as a student, visited the school president to beef about Dan Devine's coaching. I don't know Weis' exact words, but he at least strongly hinted that he would depart gracefully if he was not bringing the success that ND expects. There's no way that he could speak directly to this idea right now, but I'd sure like to hear his thoughts.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 7:35 pm | #

er, "the ND *fan* and alumnus", sorry
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 7:36 pm | #

Coach Charlie is a "glass half full" guy. He does not marinate in negative bile.

There are games still to be played. There is no way he will allow the team to look back, when full concentration ahead is required. I am sure Swarbrick wants victories
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:23 pm | #

If Notre Dame hires John Gruden, I will awaken from my slumber at the bottom of lake Michigan and come ashore to lay waste to South Bend. Then it will turn out I'm just trying to warn you about the giant evil moth from Ann Arbor, who I have to battle to the death.
That's not going to put your town back together, but hey, no more giant moth.
indy | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:25 pm | #

I think that we still have a decent array of games ahead of us that if Charlie wins out he may save his job....the problem is actually doing so.

After this week, I have trouble seeing us besting Pitt or Stanford, and UConn too if they decide to show up agst us like they did this weekend agst Cincinnatti (and it seems to me that the uncanny thing about Notre Dame is that just about everyone seems to show up when they play us...)

and God help all of us if we don't beat Syracuse.

In my mind, the most damning stat is the records against teams with winning records and agst ranked teams.
Against teams with winning records:

Weis 8-19 (.296)
Willingham 12-15 (.444)
Davie 18-22 (.450)
Holtz 53-29 (.646)
Faust 12-23 (.343)
(Source: ChuckWeis.com )

Agst Ranked Teams:
4 - 11

Speaking of which... Trivia question: anyone remember the last ranked team that we beat? It has slipped my mind, and I'd like to know. :-)
GoldenstateDomer | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:30 pm | #

It's silly to compare Kelly's pro-choice stance (if this is true) with Ara's Presbyterianism. Abortion is not primarily a religious issue. It's a human rights issue and speaks to the very foundation of a coach's moral philosophy which could, in subtle ways, affect his football team.
Matthias '09 | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:42 pm | #

Charlie beat Boston College, Boston College earlier this year friends. They were ranked at the time, I think. Why does not anyone bring this up? People are just into the negatives.

If it bleeds, it leads, dot com culture vultures
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:46 pm | #

Charlie is number one, a good father, two, a good husband, three a true philanthropist who uses his wealth for the betterment of society, and he is a proven winner, with multiple super bowl rings at the highest level of the sport. Rome was not built in a day. He first had to make chicken soup with Ty's bare cupboard. Then he had to recruit. Has there ever been a harder working recruiter? I mean, Charlie was burning it at both ends. This year he has been only 13 points away from glory. Now if he were getting blown out, I can imagine justification for bringing in a replacement. But, he is so close to taking the team to the top of the bcs.

Why mess with success?
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:53 pm | #

What success?

A Hawaii Bowl victory?
Are you kidding me | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 8:58 pm | #

If you are going to talk negatives, bring in the positive ones too to balance this thing out, like Charlie beating Mich State and the satisfying Hawaii Bowl victory, which resulted in Mani the Man Teo coming to ND and also resulted in Clausen taking the QB position by storm. How soon we forget or minimize when we have axes to grind.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:22 pm | #

i don't think the blessed virgin mary likes nd anymore. nd is basically a szecular university now

so nd gets what they deserve
flanner | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:24 pm | #

If you compare Notre Dame's values to other top colleges it is not even close. The level of fornication, alcoholism, druggery, and other stuff going on elsewhere is ridiculous, but not at ND.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:27 pm | #

Charlie is a Notre Dame graduate. He understands the special culture and embraces it wholeheartedly.

Bring in Gruden and you might have Raiders-Mid-West.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:30 pm | #

Personally, I am not a fan of Gruden's Chucky face. He is a man, why do sophomoric things like that?
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:31 pm | #

you funny chuck-dad. nd's debauchery could rival any state school. at least the pretense from the administration is gone now. nd = nw indiana secular humanist university of the pc worshippers
flanner | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 9:35 pm | #

Notre Dame ceased being Catholic a long, long time ago. They're kinda' like the people who only show up at Mass at Christmas and Easter. Catholics In Name Only (CINOs). They should just join the Big Eleven and change their name to No Different University.
TMJS | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:11 pm | #

TMJS, that's really got no place here. It's offensively misguided and completely irrelevant.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:46 pm | #

Retaining Weis in 2010 would be like keeping Faust on in 1986. The damage has been done and it's time to move on.

Damage:
1-2 BC
2-3 MSU
2-3 UofM
0-5 USC
3-2 Navy
1-1 Syracuse
1-1 Air Force
1-2 Bowls

I usually cannot stand Navy. However, this time around they deserved it. They did what they had to do with precision and drive. Most of all they acted like they have been there before (because they had thanks to Weis and his preparation).

I don't care about Kelly's politics as long as he can coach college football. When I listened to him address some men's club he sounded like some sort of Midwestern yokel/huckster. Lou can sound the same way at times. Somebody once aptly said that Lou is/was the most complicated man who pretended to be simple. If Weis is a real ND alumi he will step down at the end of the season because he did not meet the excellence which is required. He is in over his head as a head coach in the college game. I have been following ND football since 1980 and I never thought we would have to re-live the foolish Faust years once again. This is history echoing itself and it's scary.
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 11.09.09 - 11:56 pm | #

Sigh...of course, silly me. Why should ability to coach football games be the basis for choosing a coach? Of course, Brian Kelly is out. Since the football team is the ones doing the most sexin' on campus, if he's named coach, there's a chance he could influence them into having their girlfriends' get abortions...can't have that.



...this is so ridiculous.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:30 am | #

Oh, my wife just reminded me--it's Notre Dame. No one has sex there--it's in Du Lac. Moot point.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:40 am | #

BC wasn't ranked when we played them. Penn State in 2006 was the last ranked team we beat, and they sure didn't finish the season ranked.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:59 am | #

http://www.comcast.net/video/Pet...nSports/newest/
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 1:57 am | #

Nate... you're my hero!

both of those comments were spot on.

can we please leave the politics off this thread. It really has no place here.

If you want to talk about the catholic identity of the university, start up a blog cum message board.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:41 am | #

After listening to Dean O'Hara at Freshman Orientation in '98, my wife and I were celibate for a month..
onehipdad | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:01 am | #

Brian's Kelly "pro-choice" ideology has about as much to do with his coaching ability as Charlie's weight. Actually, honestly, a lot less.

And don't go pretending a lot of ND players aren't pro-choice or not even Catholics.

I'm gonna be very non-PC here and point out that ND's black students, a LOT of the football team, are not Catholics. Not saying there aren't some, just not many.

ND is still a Catholic university but the "Catholic" that most American Catholics represent. They are in it for the tradition...VERY few play by the true Catholic rules. We all know it.

That said, ND still expects decency and higher moral standards than almost all other schools. ND maintains this image quite well. Which is why I'm very proud of the school.

But don't bring religion into this. Catholics as a whole have been voting for pro-choice presidential candidates for generations.
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:06 am | #

TMJS:

Notre Dame ceased being Catholic a long time ago? Funniest line this year.
lush | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:44 am | #

Most Black players are probably Protestant.

"Not" or "non Catholics" covers alot of cults or religions.

Most if not all Protestants Alums such as myself would prefer to be referred to as " Protestant"

Thanks!
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 7:13 am | #

Dana--

As another Protestant Alum, I agree that most of the non-Catholic players are likely Protestant. However, we've had some muslims (Ryan Harris was muslim), and possibly some other religious affiliations as well. Calling all non-Catholic's "Protestant" is probably worse, because a Protestant IS a "non-Catholic" (so by definition fits, not sure why you'd be upset), whereas a Muslim is definitely *NOT* Protestant.

Bottom line, who gives a flip? What matters is being a believer in the football team. Right now this flock needs to look for a stronger leader.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 8:03 am | #

I agree with your bottom line, Nate, especially as regards this forum. Talking about hypothetical new coaches is already a stretch, much less dwelling on their off-field concerns. Let's bring it back when the time is right.

Coach Charlie is a "glass half full" guy. He does not marinate in negative bile. -- Weis' Dad 11/09 8:23pm

Did you read your son's book, No Excuses, in which he described going to Fr. Hesburgh's office to complain about the trajectory of the football team? So you're saying that "Coach Charlie" has grown up since he was "Student Charlie"? What about "Coach Charlie" assessing the 2004 you-are-what-your-record-says-you-are Willingham team? Regardless, I'm curious what "Fan and Alum Charlie" thinks of the 2005-09 Irish.

I do think that Weis' Dad has a point about getting past the Spartans at ND Stadium, getting past the Eagles anywhere, and getting a bowl win. Those are all important monkeys that are (at least partially) off ND's back. That meant a lot more to me before the consecutive-home-losses-to-Navy monkey climbed on...

That's enough hyphenation for now.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 8:28 am | #

Are you guys serious....

ND football stands for nothing other than wins/losses/nc's...

throw out Catholic values, throw out academics, throw out integrity.. and it's all about the W..

You all should pick a different team and a different university... there are plenty of those teams out there...

Why can't ND stand for something more??

Why do these recruits come to ND? Black, white, Catholic, non-Catholic, etc... It's because it is different.. and it is this difference that makes it special. It is what outsiders consider arrogance, while those of who know ND... realize it is has nothing to do with arrogance, but rather trying to attain a higher standard...

Also, stop mixing politics and religion... being Catholic is not a political affiliation.. it is a religion.. voting Democrat does not make you non-Catholic..

With that said, the sanctity of life is a basic tenet of the Catholic church... not sure how you can consider yourself Catholic and not uphold this basic belief..

Don't know Brian Kelly and don't know his stance on this issue... but think this would be a sticking point for the University if he calls himself Catholic and then makes public statements related to being pro-abortion...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 9:21 am | #

Can we stop talking about religion and abortion before I say something you are all going to regret?
obediah | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 10:22 am | #

Great article on yahoo this morning about why Brian Kelly is the perfect fit and why we should try and get him now.
Mark | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 10:33 am | #

Nate: Since you seem to be on-line now and are qualified to answer....
off topic (and from someone ignorant about the issue) but i've read a fair bit about the tragedy at Fort Hood last week. But I still haven't read why the shooter wasn't met with return gunfire by any of the Army personnel on-site. I would've thought more of the soldiers, or at least some of them, would be carrying firearms with them. That didn't seem to be the case. I realize Fort Hood isn't the same as say a base in Iraq, but it still seems odd to me.
Any thoughts? Thnx.
oakvilleirish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:04 am | #

Mark - that was a great article. I assume ND administration will flout all of his observations and will be scrambling through tier 3 candidates this coming January or next.
obediah | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:09 am | #

We have lost to NAVY 2 out of 3 games and still people want to keep Chuck? We have reached the point where we are not sure we can beat Syracuse and still people are defending Chuck? Too many people in here have accepted the idea of ND football being a third rate program.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:12 am | #

Do not believe every rumor you hear about Brian Kelly and what he has or has not said in public, etc.

I attended a wedding this weekend (niece who is daughter of ND grad), and most guests were from the Cincinnati area. Big number of ND grads, and big number of UC supporters. The UC guys said that they and others were spreading all kinds of nasty rumors about Kelly, with the hopes that the rumors will scare ND off. (I will not repeat all of the rumors, since I do not want to spread them.) I think that they were half kidding, but only half. They are scared to death about ND coming after Kelly, because they are sure he would jump.

Just don't get too tied up in knots about what words people are putting into Kelly's mouth.

I do not know if he is the right fit, let alone "the one," but (i) he has been a winner where ever he has been, and a good rule of life is that "winners win," and (ii) my brother-in-law and others who have seen him speak say that he is a high energy, dynamic guy would would energize any group.
Mark G | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:13 am | #

Part of the beauty of the Catholic tradition is its diversity.

I am invoking that diversity and calling for a cloture on debate regarding "orthodoxy" surrounding abortion.

This is a FB blog, lets keep it that way.

ND can still stand for something without mandating an oath of orthodoxy.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:18 am | #

Sorry JMC. Notre Dame doesn't stand for Catholic values. The university and many of its alumni (certainly the football team) are arrogant. Notre Dame football doesn't understand the concept of competition and preparation required to be #1 (certainly not since Dan Devine, perhaps Lou), rather than just talent. That is why ND has not been a winner for 30 years that will not change until they have a culture change. By the way, the school has lost many of its Catholic values as well...lost its tradition and application of the teaching of its founding faith.
joe gish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:35 am | #

To all rabid anti-choice nutcases,

Get off your high horses please. Catholics should worry less about what women do with their own bodies and worry more about Father Steve putting his hand down little Billy's pants.

Hypocrites.

That's all.
Enough! | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:40 am | #

If your expectations were high for this year, Jack Swarbrick's were higher...I've got to believe that 8-4 does not cut it with this man.
mikes1160 | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:40 am | #

It's a cultural issue....Charlie Weis is merely a reflection of Notre Dame the university, most of its alumni (especially, football focused alumni), and your degrading culture of arrogance and greed over humility and selflessness....
joe gish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:48 am | #

Joe Gish and Enough..

Thanks for making my point.. you all just don't get it...

Appreciate you making my point so vividly....
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:49 am | #

On the Brian Kelly front, don't know him and haven't seen or heard anything that he has said... other than his presentation at the Catholic Men's Conference in Cincy..
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:52 am | #

1)"...Those are all important monkeys that are (at least partially) off ND's back. That meant a lot more to me before the consecutive-home-losses-to-Navy monkey climbed on..." - Louie - 11.10.09 - 8:28 am

This kinda proves the point of what I am thinking. Charlie has definitely made improvements, but for every monkey that he's finally starting to take off of our backs (MSU, Bowl Game), he's introducing new ones (Navy; Bowl Games vs. BCS conf teams; Record vs. Ranked Teams; Record vs. teams with winning records). It seems to me that he's a 2-steps forward, 1-step back coach.


2) "Charlie beat Boston College, Boston College earlier this year friends. They were ranked at the time, I think. Why does not anyone bring this up? People are just into the negatives. " - Weis' Dad - 11.09.09 - 8:46 pm

Weis' dad: Anonymous pointed out earlier that BC was not ranked when we beat them. Maybe they should have been...but they weren't. According to Anonymous, Penn State in 2006, huh? Let's hope this monkey leaps off this Saturday....and hope another one doesn't jump on as it's doing so.
GoldenstateDomer | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:53 am | #

I can't speak for Enough....can only say that the culture of Notre Dame is actually moving towards the mindset of people like Enough.....congratulations!!!!
joe gish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:53 am | #

Joe gish

Then why are here? why do you care?
Just jump on an ND blog to bash it...

Wow, that tell's us all alot..
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:00 pm | #

You know it's bad when...

comments descend into religious & political debates, and folks forget that this is a football website.

The guys who run BGS have pointed out many times before that this is just not the forum for that kind of discussion. I'll grant that it might pertain to the debate about Brian Kelly & whether or not ND would hire him, but this is all based on rumor right now - let's move on. Debating a potential new coach's worth &/or values is just premature.

I know, I know: it's every fan's God-given right to speculate as he or she wishes. But right now all I'm worried about is Pittsburgh and how well our boys are preparing for them. Hopefully our team is focused on working their asses off and recognizing their mistakes in order to improve and win.

Go Irish.
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:01 pm | #

jmc, which point would that be?

The one where Catholicism has become a parody of itself? The one where abortion is the one issue that matters anymore, all others be damned (maybe with a little time and energy being saved to protest the ills of contraception)?

Wars? We might get a Sunday peace message from St. Peters, but nothing more.

Health Care? we get zzzzzz.

Ending poverty? See Health Care.

But a woman who thinks that her body should NOT be ward of the state/church, or a politician who supports this position, is met with a Normandy-like attack with the little latent nancies in black robes leading the charge on the beaches.

I'd be more inclined to accept your moral superiority if you weren't such hypocrites about morality. That's all.
Enough! | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:02 pm | #

Can we bring in Paul Johnson as a "guest HC" this week?
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:02 pm | #

If NC State can manage to somehow scrape together a win against Pitt, I certainly hope that ND can too.

I mean, hell, after watching last week's game, it sure seems like the coaches have been preparing for Pitt for two weeks.
Matt J. | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:04 pm | #

Go Irish...

Beat Pitt and let the hatred of all you stand for continue....

'nuff said....
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:07 pm | #

Hey Enough;

Did you know that 1 out of 2 AIDS sufferers in Africa is cared for by agencies of the Catholic Church? How's that for fighting poverty and providing health care, you role model for cretins.


Now please either keep on the subject of football or fuck off out of here forever.

Thanks and Go Irish!
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:11 pm | #

Nate:

Without getting into the merits of other religions { which would likely get me banned} I'll settle for labels...Catholic ,Protestant, Jewish, Muslim or whatever.

That keeps everyone happy.

Having said that , ND was a more Catholic University in the 70s. Indeed probably my favorite cleric of any faith was my hall rector. We had lots of discussions on various religious topics.
NDs religious atmosphere of that era has made me a better{ but never good enough} person today.
Were I to coach ND football it would be inappropriate for me to prosthelytize my own religious views as I would be a public figure representing a Catholic University.
Were we to pick a football coach with markedly PUBLICALLY STATED stands contrary to Church teachings, this blog would indeed become a religous/ political one.
I plead guilty myself ...but we don't need anymore division among alumni ,fans and devotees of ND.

Most of all thank you for YOUR service.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:11 pm | #

i'd'ven't had the nerve to bring up abortion here. i am surprised the overlords have permitted it
brian custer | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:11 pm | #

Brian:

Any relative of GA Custer?
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:15 pm | #

dana; i don't think so... lots of custers in the midwest
brian custer | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:20 pm | #

Enough!

If a woman has a right to her body, and she is on welfare, isn't she a ward of the state?
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:23 pm | #

I'm pretty sure I'd rather have a catholic schoolgirl coaching a college football team than Charlie Weis
Nat Berman | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:27 pm | #

WHAT...




THE...



F***...

has happened to this thread? WTF does abortion and politics and shit have to do with the football team?

I don't care if Brian Kelly secrely worships Satan and eats babies at midnight, if he can run a clean program, win games, and graduate players, I'm happy.

Head Coach at Notre Dame is not the Pope. His job is to win football games, graduate players, and run a clean program.

I mean seriously, WTF?
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:28 pm | #

"It seems to me that he's a 2-steps forward, 1-step back coach."
-- Goldenstatedomer

That seems like an accurate description to me. Does this represent an argument for allowing him to stay awhile longer? We're certainly not moving fast enough, but it's hard to claim we are not at least moving forward. . .
DCS | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:28 pm | #

MY LIFE ON THE PLAINS by G.A Custer is a classic and extremely readable.

Well worth it if you like history of the West.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:28 pm | #

I think I would draw the line at devil worshiping. We don't really want a Pete Carroll. Just his record.

Kyle Rudolph is out for the remainder of the regular season. Bad.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:31 pm | #

Brad:

While the thread sometimes "deteriorates" into religious/ politcal issues your views of any future ND coach ,trumps that substantially
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:33 pm | #

i will check it out, thanks.
brian custer | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:35 pm | #

Fellow ND fans.

I have been a big CW supporter on this blog and other sites. However, I think that if Notre Dame sees fit to replace him at the end of this season - I see one clear cut choice; yet I've heard no one else echo this name.

Tommy Tubberville

1. Successful high profile program in the highest profile conference (SEC).
2. His kids were never in trouble with the law - he graduated his players (when they didn't leave early).
3. Although not Catholic, his values fit with those of the church.
4. He knows how to win.
5. He has something to prove.
6. Defense, solid QB play and an unstoppable run game.
7. He knows how to recruit and did it against some of the best (UGA, Alabama, LSU, Florida).

Tommy T, I'm just sayin.
Atlantadomer | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:37 pm | #

Brad - "I don't care if Brian Kelly secrely worships Satan and eats babies at midnight"

Didn't you mean Nick Saban?

:)
Atlantadomer | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:41 pm | #

Atlantadomer,

Actually, I just thought "what does Nick Saban do before games?" and then wrote that down with regard to future coaches.

With regards to Tubberville, I definitely gave that some thought. He is a great coach, and ALWAYS puts together top ranked Defenses.

However, there were a couple of academic scandals down at Auburn when he was there, and they never really graduated players very successfully. I think that would hurt him badly.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:43 pm | #

Steering clear of the religious/political debate, I'm on board with stevwee--ND needs to use each of the next four games to hold a one-game coaching audition. Nothing against Clausen, but when Paul Johnson auditions, I'd like to see Golden Tate guest-QB.

If the tier-one coaches are not available, can we land Jags?
Joe D. | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:45 pm | #

doesn't really matter if Kyle Rudy is out for the rest of the season b/c we sure as shit haven't been using him for anything other than blocking lately.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:58 pm | #

What about bringing in Hayden Fox? he worked wonders with the Screaming Eagles.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 12:59 pm | #

Just no more wildcat, plz.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 1:00 pm | #

"doesn't really matter if Kyle Rudy is out for the rest of the season b/c we sure as shit haven't been using him for anything other than blocking lately."

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that over the past few weeks.
Matt J. | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 1:26 pm | #

Does anyone know the contract buyout amount needed to take care of Charlie after five years? I think it is between $1 to $2 million. I doubt Notre Dame is on the hook for $20 more million for the last five years of the contract. Buy out clauses are standard in long term contracts. Charlie needs to beat some pretty tough schools and the bowl game to have a chance at staying alive. But, at this point, he probably has a 6.5% chance of staying as Head Coach for next year.
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 1:27 pm | #

Given all the coaching reshuffling our players have been through under ONE regime, it's tough to imagine us not having problems next year w/ a totally new system, no matter how "stacked" we are, or what hot-shot coach we can (presumably) land.

I'd prefer us miraculously laying Hawaii-Bowl-sized ass-whoopings on all the remaining competition and winning out. Realistic? Doubtful. Can I dream? You bet.

So I was trying to stay out of the "who's next" coaching debate. But who am I kidding - I want to play the what-if game, too, so here are my 2 cents. Assuming Charlie's gone, my top 3 borderline-realistic picks would be:

1. Chris Patterson, TCU. Has consistently had good-to-great defenses and taken on and beaten several bigger-name programs. I was sad to see the possible 2010 TCU game fall through.

2. Brian Kelly, Cinci. Not much I can add that hasn't been said, other than: "Hansel, he's so hot right now... Hansel."

3. Tommy Tuberville, ESPN. Curious why he seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle... and then somebody just mentioned him up above. Concern w/ him is that he sorta flamed out at Auburn. Again, emphasis on proven success as a HC at the college level, and good defense.

Alright, got that outa my system.
Beat Pitt!
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 1:27 pm | #

Tuberville and Johnson are two grails. I'll drink freely from either one.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 1:27 pm | #

Thing with Tuberville is that his offenses were awful at Auburn since 2004. That's why he got fired.

Johnson runs a triple option at GT.

Say goodbye to elite level offesive recruits coming to ND.

However it does seem like this board prefers a team that overachieves to 9 wins as opposed to one that wins 9 with the talent to win 11.

Personally I like the higher ceiling a pro offense coach brings. Ara and Lou ran the option. So why not bring in someone to do it 25 and 40 years later.
Aaron b | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 1:49 pm | #

JMC,

Just trying to save you and ND in general from yourselves. I would like to see ND be successful and return to glory, but my point is that it would take a more comprehensive culture change.

Somebody on here had it right. You need to hire someone like Paul Johnson. If PJ were the coach, there would be no player worship (best players play on any given day regardless of who they are scholarship status), recruiting would not be the focus (would not need to be the focus), the team would be the focus, tradition, understanding competition and the need to prepare to win EVERY game, selfless yet disciplined...that's the type of coach and leader you need...good luck.
joe gish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 1:55 pm | #

Amen.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 2:23 pm | #

Joe,

"recruiting would not be the focus" - if winning is the goal, recruiting has to be a part of that. There is no way around that.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 2:26 pm | #

Notre Dame doesn't need to recruit if you focus on the coaching and development of your players as a TEAM!!! The school and tradition can sell itself. One of ND's biggest mistakes over the last 30 years is too much emphasis on recruiting.
joe gish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 2:38 pm | #

Aaron b - you want to lace it up against the SEC West every season and see how "terrific" any offense would look???

Get him a good offensive coordinator - he learned his lesson in 2008 with a guy running a "gimmick".
Atlantadomer | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 2:42 pm | #

The landscape of CFB has changed so much since we last won a NC, it makes me fearful that we might never get back there, no matter who we have as HC.
jezza | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 2:44 pm | #

baIrish, I share your dream of winning big in the remaining games. As for your list of coaches, I think that your first choice is an amalgam of Gary Patterson from TCU and Chris Peterson from Boise State. Sorry to be picky.

joe, it probably does not matter what the amount of Weis' buyout is, since the Irish AD said last year that it was not an issue. Also, I'm curious, how did you reach a numeric value of 6.5%?

Any folks from the Pittsburgh area or otherwise have thoughts on Wannstedt's progress as coach?
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 2:44 pm | #

As far as I know, Brian Kelly has never taken a public stance on abortion. Personally, I couldn't care less what his private views on the matter are as long as he doesn't take a public position contrary to the University's.
Craig | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 2:44 pm | #

Re: the political/religious debate:

Anyone who thinks this is merely about football needs to remember that this is a faith-based institution first.

If CW is fired, he must be replaced by 1) a coach of good moral character that 2) knows how to win.

I do not know Bryan Kelly, but if the rumors that he is openly pro-choice are true, I would have serious problems with him being our coach.

Coach Holtz understood that this school was built on faith and belief, and relayed that message to his players. He was the last coach that openly spoke about the spirit of Notre Dame. I know Faust did also, but he did not satisfy the 2nd requirement above.

To ignore the school's faith tradition is to ignore the very foundation that it was built upon. Therefore, if we are to select a new coach, his character is not only pertinent to the discussion, but highly relevant.

He does not need to be Catholic, but must uphold basic values of human deceny. Otherwise, we will lose touch with what makes us special in the first place.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 2:52 pm | #

here's some live nd football chat:

http://player.play.it/player/pla...62& onestat=wfan
flanner fighting 6th | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:06 pm | #

Joe Gish

Thanks for your concern but I'm not the one who "needs saving" in my humbly arrogant opinion....

Interesting that you think "the school and tradition will sell itself"... not bad for a school that has no values, is arrogant.. and needs saving from itself and all it's pedophile priests...

Gimme a break
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:06 pm | #

Ha ha - oops, you're right, Louie. Thanks for the correction. I don't know what the chances of us luring him away from TCU are, though. I'm under the impression that he's pretty happy there.

Is it just me or does an Irish loss make the next week seem waaaay longer? I looked at my calendar & was surprised to realize that it is, in fact, still only Tuesday. Sigh.
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:08 pm | #

Louie. I came up with the 6.5% figure by assuming that the only way Charlie stays is by winning the remaining three games and the bowl game. I assumed if he lost one game he would be gone for sure. So, I took Notre Dame's chance of winning percentage (my personal algorithim pulled out of my proverbial blank) and multiplied it out. Here are the calculations,

game 1, Pitt, 40% of ND winning = (40% Charlie staying)

game 2, 80% of winning (40% x 80% = 32% Charlie staying)

game 3, 40% of winning (40% x 32% = 13% Charlie staying)

Bowl game, 50% of winning (13% x 50% = 6.5% Charlie staying)
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:10 pm | #

cont'd
game 1 - Pitt
game 2 - Conn
game 3 - Stan
bowl game - 50-50 (since I have no idea what team will be the opponent)
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:12 pm | #

Our concern should be does he know football and how to coach,not is he in favor of abortion or right to life.This is football and it is not a religious sport.
irishjh2 | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:13 pm | #

I don't care what Kelly thinks about abortion. I do know that when MSU and UM were looking for coaches, they both looked at Kelly. There was a minor dust-up after one of his kids at CMU murdered someone -- he made some comments that some thought were racist. Google it. Obviously didn't scare UC off though -- so perhaps it was more media scrutiny that legitimate criticism.

In any event, we probably don't have to worry about this for at least another month or so.
Golddust | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:17 pm | #

Totally agree with you Matt. Notre Dame is Notre Dame because of Catholicism. I disagree with everyone who says religion should be left out. Keeping religion in, and a part of the university, its sports teams, its faculty, and its purpose, is what ND was built on, grew on, and will prosper on.

Anyone know the percentage of Catholic students at Notre Dame?

With that said, I really think Kelly would be a great fit, the pro choice thing, is undoubtedly an issue....which is really too bad.

Anyone think Tubberville would ever take a D-Coordinator position? Either with CW coaching or maybe Kelly?
Trevor | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:18 pm | #

I agree. We need a coach who is a molder of men. Someone who is morally strong and instills that in his players. Someone who teaches young men to be great people and golfers. Maybe even a black head coach. Where would we find an unemployed black coach who could be such an inspiration leader?

Brian Kelly isn't Hitler. He's a damn good football coach who wins games. Hire the man.
Mark | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:26 pm | #

Irishjh2:

You are ignoring the fact that it is a religious school and therefore must uphold certain values.

The administration cannot in good faith proclaim to adhere to and teach those values, and not expect the people it employs to do the same. All credibility would be lost if such a double-standard existed.

The coach at ND does more than just coach football. He is a public figure that is expected to uphold the ideals of the university with class and dignity.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:26 pm | #

they said on wfan that charlie can save himself if he brings in romeo crennel as a mentor/overseer/defensive coordinator
flanner fighting 6th | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:38 pm | #

I think Kelly's comments about his players' relations with police are more class-related than race-related.
Craig | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:46 pm | #

Go all the way and only allow students that follow the weekly definition of "good catholicism". Then the hardliners can enjoy feeling sorry for the sinners that whoop ND 60-0 each week, and the rest of us can find something else to do with our fall Saturdays. At halftime, the players can even walk around the stands trying to convert people.
obediah | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:54 pm | #

Craig,

I assume you are not referring to carnal relations or blood relatives.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 3:57 pm | #

Obediah,

National Lampoon many years ago had a funny comic with Notre Dame running up the score on SMU on the gridiron.

You guessed it points were measured in "conversions".
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:00 pm | #

What about Harbaugh?
anon | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:03 pm | #

they said on wfan that charlie can save himself if he brings in romeo crennel as a mentor/overseer/defensive coordinator

Yes Crennel's success with the Browns will be an inspiration to the team.
Ricky Runnin' Waters | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:07 pm | #

Yes Crennel's success with the Browns will be an inspiration to the team.



lou holtz didn't have a lot of success on the pro level, either
flanner fighting 6th | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:09 pm | #

Dana Payne

Good one about the unity.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:11 pm | #

Wasn't Cincy supposed to be worse this year than last year? Anyone know?

___________________________

If We Are SC is on here, do you think USC is having "troubles" this year because they are reloading or because they lost their Coordinators?
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:14 pm | #

A couple of days ago, Lou Smogdyi (sp?)at Blue and Gold had a good article about how ND team responds when it gets upset with bad ND coaches when they are flaming out. He would not be surprised at all to see ND beat Pitt but would not be surprised to see ND get upset by UConn.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:23 pm | #

I have read too many of these comments. There is too much analysis going on...talent issues, what is measurable improvement, etc. It is all very simple. Weis has never won a game he came into as an underdog, or could look at as a signature win. There has been ZERO overachievement and he has lost a number of games to overmatched teams (and has been their signature win). Coaching talent shows up almost immediately on the field (I knew the moment I watched a Holtz-coached team he was the real deal). Charlie has shown himself to be exactly what he was when he arrived. A very good Offensive Coordinator. That is his ceiling. He is NOT a head football coach. Anybody who thinks he should stay based on his ACTUAL body of work is ignoring what is going in front of them every Saturday. ND has been more than patient with Weis. It is time to move on. It is not knee jerk or counter to the mission of the university to honestly assess somebody's skill and see where change is needed. And the change needs to happen now.
sonofasonofadomer | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:26 pm | #

gb, WeAre _ _ _ would say injuries are hurting them most.
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:26 pm | #

Matt,

are you honestly telling me that ND should only employ people that uphold your understanding of "certain values"?

ND is a great institution for higher learner. Thus, they can't just limit their horizon to people whose opinion happen to be in lock-step with the Vatican. That goes from the lowest adjunct position to the highest Dean. It is an institution that - at least ideally - wants excellent applicants first and "orthodoxy" to follow. Otherwise we doom ourselves to be nothing but another irrelevant parochial school good for catechesis. Instead we are one of the country's best universities and I would like to keep it that way.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:33 pm | #

Charlie, Undressed



Notre Dame (16) will do whatever it pleases with Charlie Weis (17) -- fire him, retain him, give him another $30-plus million for almost beating USC. Whatever. He should have been dismissed a year ago, after the humiliation in the Los Angeles Coliseum, so any corrective action taken now comes a year too late.

But while we're waiting for the Fighting Irish brass to decide what to do with their football coach, The Dash has to admire how the man has built a five-year, get-rich-quick scheme out of virtually nothing. Look at Weis' record, and there is no substance to it.

His overall record is 35-24. If the Irish lose Saturday at Pittsburgh, his winning percentage will be .583 -- which means he'll still be succeeding at the identical rate that got Tyrone Willingham (18) canned after three seasons. His ability to create a double standard out of recruiting hype got him two more years of fat paychecks.

But there's nothing more to Weis than that.

Whom has he beaten? An endless succession of nobodies. Of his 35 victories, exactly two have come against teams that finished the season in Jeff Sagarin's ELO_Chess Top 30 (the rankings the BCS uses). One of those was against Michigan in Weis' second game as coach, in 2005 -- the Wolverines finished that year No. 24. The other was against Penn State in the second game of Weis' second year -- the Nittany Lions finished that year No. 14.

Since that victory over Penn State in September 2006, Weis' past 24 victories have been against teams ranked 35th or lower by Sagarin -- most of them much lower.

In fact, the average Sagarin ELO_Chess rank of all 35 Weis victims is a 73. Which basically means the Irish would have been hell on wheels in Conference USA over the past five seasons.

And isn't that what Notre Dame football is supposed to be all about?
daybreakboys | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:35 pm | #

Charlie, Undressed



Notre Dame (16) will do whatever it pleases with Charlie Weis (17) -- fire him, retain him, give him another $30-plus million for almost beating USC. Whatever. He should have been dismissed a year ago, after the humiliation in the Los Angeles Coliseum, so any corrective action taken now comes a year too late.

But while we're waiting for the Fighting Irish brass to decide what to do with their football coach, The Dash has to admire how the man has built a five-year, get-rich-quick scheme out of virtually nothing. Look at Weis' record, and there is no substance to it.

His overall record is 35-24. If the Irish lose Saturday at Pittsburgh, his winning percentage will be .583 -- which means he'll still be succeeding at the identical rate that got Tyrone Willingham (18) canned after three seasons. His ability to create a double standard out of recruiting hype got him two more years of fat paychecks.

But there's nothing more to Weis than that.

Whom has he beaten? An endless succession of nobodies. Of his 35 victories, exactly two have come against teams that finished the season in Jeff Sagarin's ELO_Chess Top 30 (the rankings the BCS uses). One of those was against Michigan in Weis' second game as coach, in 2005 -- the Wolverines finished that year No. 24. The other was against Penn State in the second game of Weis' second year -- the Nittany Lions finished that year No. 14.

Since that victory over Penn State in September 2006, Weis' past 24 victories have been against teams ranked 35th or lower by Sagarin -- most of them much lower.

In fact, the average Sagarin ELO_Chess rank of all 35 Weis victims is a 73. Which basically means the Irish would have been hell on wheels in Conference USA over the past five seasons.

And isn't that what Notre Dame football is supposed to be all about?
daybreakboys | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:35 pm | #

Son, I agree with the gist of your post, but you are wrong to say that CW never won as an underdog.

In 05 we started off the season as underdogs in games at Pitt and in the Big House. Both teams collapses and screwed our SOS by the end of the season, but we were not favored to win those games.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:35 pm | #

Matt,You are wrong.This is football we are talking about ,not religion.Just because someone doesn`t support your religious views,doesn`t make them a bad person.So many people today have written that this a sports blog, not politics and not religion.I suppose you think Lou didn`t break any rules.I didn`t care if he did. He won and he is still a great man.
It`s just what people hate about ND--that pompous holier than thou attitude
irishjh2 | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:36 pm | #

I do not think Notre Dame wants to be the Catholic BYU.
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 4:36 pm | #

Anybody out there who wouldn't want Brian Kelly cause of his personal views on a politcal issue are stupid.

We want a FOOTBALL COACH. Not a god, or an idol, or a savior. Just somehow who can teach kids to block and tackle.



Seriously, complaining about a possible awesome head coach coming to ND before theold coach has even been fired? I mean really, its people like you who make people hate ND and think all their fans are pricks.

Whats next, are people gonna complain that they 'wouldn't take' Urban Meyer if he decided to come into town with his two rings and start winning championships for us? Would that be unacceptable?

This whole conversation leaves me more embarrassed to be an ND fan than our recent play on the field.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:01 pm | #

Some ND fans are pompous and holier than thou....it irritates me as a rationale when used to excuse our frequent losses.

Having a Coach and team adhering to ND values in the broad sense is called "standards" not "pomposity"

True ND fans know the difference.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:03 pm | #

3 wins to 7 wins to 9-10 wins is improvement.

Maybe not as quick a turnaround as we had hopped. Improvement none the less.

When have we housed this much talent in the 85 scholorship era?

Do we think we will attract talent and be NC contenders running a gimmick option or spread offense in South Bend?

Being honest with ourselves, how many "fire Charlie" guys are that way from 2007?

Who does better with 60 scholorship guys?

I know wanting your "pound of flesh" sell papers. But are we better as a program by switching now?
Aaron b | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:08 pm | #

Our 'standards' for a football coach should be simple....winning.

If we demand our coach run a clean program, graduate players, recruit great players, win games, win championships, devote time to the poor, heal the sick, read to the blind, conduct Mass in Latin, etc. etc.......

...then no one will want the job.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:08 pm | #

Aaron b,

I have NEVER been a fire Weis guy until this week.

He has had 5 years with this team. He has two losses to Navy, 5 losses to USC, and a record similar in percentage and wins and losses to Davie and Willingham.

We can't beat teams that are better than we are, and frequently lose to teams that are much worse than we are.

Honestly, losing to USC 5 straight is grounds enough to fire him. But two losses, AT HOME to Navy?

I'm done with the guy, because no matter how much I like him, I no longer have any faith that he can ever get this team to a championship level. So why bother with him?

The sign says PLAY LIKE A CHAMPION TODAY.

Not PLAY LIKE AN INCREDIBLY TALENTED MEDIOCRE TEAM THAT UNDER-PERFORMS AND LOSES TO INFERIOR TEAMS AND EEKS OUT WINS AGAINST OTHER INFERIOR TEAMS TODAY.

We deserve better, and more important, the players do.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:14 pm | #

Please don't misunderstand me. I never said the coach at ND, or any other employee for that matter, has to be the pope. On the contrary, I said that he does not even have to be Catholic.

I merely stated that this is a religious institution (in the sense that it is a faith-based school, not just a Catholic one), and therefore expect that its most public and visible representatives will uphold the basic human and moral values the school adheres to.

Of course, any coach, professor, employee, etc. hired has to be qualified for the job first, that just comes with the territory.

However, unlike professors and other staff members employed by the university, the football coach at ND is arguably the most visible person, if not the face of the entire school.

Therefore, one would think that it would be important to select as coach an individual who encompasses all that the school stands for, not someone who can simply win football games. The bottom line is that it takes a special person to succeed at ND.

Look at all of the great coaches in our history. Every single one of them possesses the qualities I refer to. Maybe there's something more than being just a good coach after all.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:18 pm | #

Brad's right, my tide turned this past weekend.

The man is gone, plain and simple. No one can save him now.
Mark | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:28 pm | #

yes, most of the ND coaches were good men, but we didn't make KR, FL, AP, DD, or even LH pass a pro-choice litmus test. the notion is prima facie ludicrous.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:30 pm | #

irishjh2

you're not getting it, or you're not reading accurately...No one's saying everyone affiliated with ND has to be a devout Catholic.

What some people are saying, is that Notre Dame and religion can not be separated, and nor should it.

At the very least those who represent Notre Dame and lead Notre Dame should embody, as best they can, what Notre Dame is about. And Catholicism is exactly at the heart and core of what ND is about.

The point I find intriguing, is that the head coach of ND football is THEE FACE of the entire University...no one outside ND knows the AD, or the Prez or the faculty...the head coach represents more than just the football team. And I wonder what message would be declared, if the head coach at THEE catholic university was openly in support of abortion.

And I say again, I REALLY like Kelly, and think he might be the perfect fit, but this is an issue, and we can't just say he's only a football coach and it doesn't matter what he stands for
Trevor | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:36 pm | #

if kelly is publicly pro choice and rather obvious about it; he will not get hired.

if there are clear direct statements on tape or on paper, which ND's PR people cannot spin him out of, he wont be here.

we dont have to like that, it may be wrong, but if he is an active proponent of choice, it wont happen.

i happen to be pro-life, but vote for pro-choice candidates all the time and have no problem doing so. abortion is legal and will continue to be legal. it will never be repealed. this whole abortion issue at a political level is a waste, as it will never change.

again, i dont care what his stance is, but if he cannot spin his way out of this (assuming CW is gone and kelly gets vetted), he will not coach here.

its one thing to invite the president to speak (who has had the same effect on current abortion law as W, btw), but another thing to put that person in your most prominent position.
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 5:38 pm | #

Domer,

Please read my comments carefully. I said that if Kelly were OPENLY pro-choice, I would have a serious problem with that because it presents a grave conflict for the school and exposes us to a potential PR nightmare. We are, after all, a Catholic institution (think Obama's honorary degree x 1000).

I never said an applicant should put a checkmark in the box on his application regarding his stance on the issue. Would I prefer the coach to be pro-life? Absolutely.

However, he simply cannot be openly in favor of abortion for obvious reasons.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:05 pm | #

Since when has pro-choice/pro-life been the litmus test of moral fiber? I highly doubt Brian Kelly is going to publicly comment on such a heated political debate, regardless of *his* choice. Understandably, the coach of ND football is the face of ND. I also expect that if fans treat him with respect, he will return the favor like any decent human being would. Should his political stances factor into hiring? Due to the apparently politically charged nature of our media, yes. Yes, it should be taken into account and you can't fault ND for that. Blame the media.
yoyomama | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:07 pm | #

I don't know... you guys seem to think that the ND admin cares more about its PR than I do. We all knew it would be a shitstorm if we fired TW after 3 seasons, but they did it. Just like Jenkins knew it would be a shitstorm if he invited Obama. He did it anyway.

I'm not necessarily saying they like to encourage the flinging of shit, but they don't seem as scatophobic as some suggest.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:09 pm | #

Can we abort this season?
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:14 pm | #

Trending up.

This is his first senior class.

I fear were going to cut off our nose to spite our face.
Aaron b | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:22 pm | #

Augustinians to the left.
Thomases to the right.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/video/pr...ng-inward- 57010
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:22 pm | #

Hey GB -

Probably a combination of both. On Offense, its been injuries and on defense, its youth, depth, fatigue.

Injuries to O'Dowd, Havili and McCoy on offense have really hurt us. The last 2 games, its clear that not having Havili and McCoy has seriously limited Barkley's options down to RoJo and Damian Williams. And earlier this year, missing RoJo was tough. I think AB has filled in well for Stafon Johnson. Brice Butler, DJ Shoemate, and Blake Ayles have done well, but they are not at RoJo, Havili or McCoy's levels yet. These aren't excuses, just a fact that injuries have slowed down SC's offense. They need to figure out ways to adapt.

On defense, I think its an issue of depth. We looked really good early on this year, but in the ND, OSU and OU games, our youth really showed. Our guys looked slow and confused. I've never thought I would say an SC defense looked slow.

Again, not an excuse. They are going to school for free and have all the resources in the world, so figure it out or move aside so someone else can get the job done.
WeAreSC | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:23 pm | #

Also, Nick Holt never really ran the defense. He just pulls his pants up to is nipples, frowns and yells. Not sure that he is that innovative when it comes to defense.

The jury is still out on Sark vs. Bates. My sense is that Jerermy Bates is more willing than Sark to let Barkley throw downfield, or at least pass the LOS. Sark never took the reigns off Sanchez until the Rose Bowl last year. If Sanchez were allowed to be a gunslinger, SC could have put up some serious points.

Bates has adapted to the college games. Against tOSU and UW, he had a pro mindset and settled for field goals. He's definitely opening it up more and I hope he lets Matt Barkley throw 50 times a game for the next three seasons.
WeAreSC | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:28 pm | #

Aaron B

"When have we housed this much talent in the 85 scholorship era?"

When have we had this much talent and done less?
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:28 pm | #

Thanks WeAreSC
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:30 pm | #

Man, CW is really letting the Jersey act slip back into full force.

I appreciate that the most important relationships in life are with those who actually know us. But the complete disregard for the opinions of those who "don't know him" is not only flippant, it is also downright naive.

My opinion of CW is based not only off of being a fellow alum (the good), but also off of the disrespectful manner is which he responds to a reporter (in the video linked above "Al") who asked an honest and legitimate question about how he plans to better Red Zone performance. Perhaps I am old-fashioned, but responding to an honest question with an extended sarcastic expose is ill-mannered and unacceptable.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 6:32 pm | #

All this crap about Kelly and his views on abortion are....

A) Stupid as hell.

and

B) The dumbest thing I have ever heard.

and

C) Exactly why there are tons of great coaches out there who would never want the ND job.

I think we should abort this whole conversation.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 7:03 pm | #

WeAre_ _ _ a few more questions, appreciate your good insight.

1.) Do you think Charlie will survive this season?

1a.) If not, who do you think will replace him? Hope it is not Harbaugh from Stanford who is a Michigan man.
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 7:15 pm | #

There are, fortunately, lots of potentially great coaches for the job. For the sake of brevity (you were alerted over 3 years ago that this guy wouldn't cut it) I'll pass on the "how we find him."

If Mr. Swarbrick has the skills we've been led to believe he has, we will soon be where Alabama was a decade or so after The Bear left.

Let's stop the embarrassing "who's the biggest name, biggest winner out there" crap. Also, bury the "needs to know the tradition, blah, blah" of Notre Dame. The guy currently holding the position doesn't have a clue - 10 minutes with anyone sporting an 85-plus IQ will make them an expert. History proves it.

If we don't wake up now, here's hoping for a successful "ChicagoII" experience.
GloamingDome | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 7:28 pm | #

joe -

I think CW survives if he wins out. If he loses one more game then I think he'll resign.

Replacement? You guys already hired a Stanford coach. I don't see it happening again. Also Harbaugh is crazy and would likely offend ND boosters.

Brian Kelly would be my bet for HC. Anyone know if he has NFL aspirations? I think Mike Riley, Chris Peterson and Will Muschamp would do really well in South Bend. But, I don't think Riley or Peterson are interested in leaving their respective schools.

The day ND replaces CW, and assuming you trade up with a better HC, I think many will be relieved that CW is no longer HC. The more I learn about CW, the more I like him as a person, but I don't know that he will ever have what it takes to make ND a top 10 program every year.
WeAreSC | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 7:31 pm | #

WeAreSC, thanks for the response.
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 7:33 pm | #

Ahhhhhh, let's keep CW. He's a good guy.
http://all-access.cbssports.com/...nd& media=150977
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 8:02 pm | #

That Al, that CW was responding to, is Al Leaser(sp) of the SBT, who has been on CW's @$$ for 5 years.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 8:07 pm | #

With apologies for prolonging the debate over morality, how does the hiring/firing of George O'Leary fit into the conversation? His coaching skills were strong, but he had perpetuated a lie on his resume.

jim masterson, right on about Al Lesar. He'd qualify as a nattering nabob this season. It also seems like Eric Hansen has played a smaller role in covering the Irish, which comes on the heels of some back-and-forth with Weis in the past two seasons. At least those are my impressions.

DayBreak, there are many compelling reasons for skepticism of Charlie Weis, but please don't make me read that ESPN wonk's columns. I vowed 2 years ago to avoid him, and thus far I've been successful. Please do not give him credibility.

florence, love the scatophobia term. For me, the concern isn't the negative publicity. It's the idea of ditching the current coach because there's one prime target and several other excellent choices, but then ending up with a coach from well down the wish list.

Aaron b, there is something to trending up. None of Faust, Davie, or Willingham, or really even Holtz, could have been said (or shown based on W-L) to be going in the right direction. Even with the disappointing losses, a win in the Gator or Cotton Bowl would be a very good thing for the program. It gets tiring to say "let's see how this plays out" especially when it's playing out poorly, but that is much wiser than jerking our knees after a stunner versus Navy.

Given that the Irish have been in every game this season, we have great reason to expect an entertaining game this Saturday. That alone is a step up from the past 2 (or maybe 3) seasons. If such optimism dooms me to watching an ugly blowout, so be it.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 9:42 pm | #

My point is why aren't Catholics equally outraged by issues other than abortion/homosexuality?

I never hear about Catholics taking to the streets over the injustices here in America if it doesn't involve the private goings-on inside people's bedrooms, or personal decisions one would make about ones body.

What was the Catholic Bishops position on the Health Care debate before it became hijacked by the abortion fanatics this week? I can't recall a single statement or action. Then suddenly, this week, the Catholic Bishops issue a statement that parishes and parishoners should oppose it if it doesn't contain an anti-abortion provision?

Really? So here we are trying to expand coverage to more than thirty million people in this country, who don't have any coverage at all, and the only part of the debate that interested the Church was whether an ammendment passed refusing to allow women to LEGALLY terminate her pregnancy, even if she pays for it with her own money?

Where were the protests/decrees/threats of ex-communication against politicians for supporting a war of aggression? The death penalty? Cuts to social programs while stealing government funds and giving them to billionaires and finacial crooks, all the while ignoring the financial ruin of hard working people?

Are such corporate masters exemplars of Catholic social virtue now because they might support the Churches position on abortion? Are we now in agreement with the CEO of Goldman Sacks that he is actually doing "God's work?"

All these issues have far more impact on a persons moral outlook (Catholic or not), as such people (down on their luck) are most likely to succumb to various temptations given their situation.

Also, the African example of helping the poor with AIDS is kind of a joke given the churches stance on contraception, isn't it? Preventative medicine is always best, and telling people that they shouldn't use contraception and then claiming credit when you care for some of them after they acquire AIDS is nonsensical.

It's kind of like beating someone in the head with a bat and then claiming to be a good samaritan because you rushed him the hospital afterward, isn't it?

That's why many, including myself, see Catholics talking about the ills of morality, homosexuality and/or abortion as nothing more than hypocrites. You use such issues to claim holier-than-thou moral superiority while supporting some of the most immoral behavior/actions in existence.

As I stated, Catholicism has become nothing more than a parody of itself, whether you wish to admit it or not.

It has no relevance in the social arena.
Enough! | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 9:56 pm | #

Jay, why did you ever have to bring up abortion in your post? You BGS guys do so much better when you stick to football. Oh, wait. You did stick to football.

Speaking of that welcome diversion from real-world troubles, I read that Dion Lewis is only 5-foot-8. He's the frosh RB for Pitt who's been on a tear this season. It seems like someone on this site was picking on a 2010 Irish commit who is only 5'9". Of course, if Pitt wants to switch to an option formation, they could probably do just fine with me as their fullback. Sorry, couldn't resist; it's hard to move on... That sort of brings my comment full circle, perhaps.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 10:26 pm | #

Enough; What pray tell are you doing about the aforementioned social ills?
Typical Liberal, bitching and moaning looking for Big Gov't to do your work.
Stop crying, stop wearing your "Free Darfur" tee-shirt, and get your head out of your @$$.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 10:32 pm | #

jim masterson,

Thanks for not addressing a single point I made. Typical brain-washed right-wing loon.
Enough! | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 10:40 pm | #

jim masterson,

Why don't you address the issues I bring up instead of trying to deflect the issue all together by making some type of personal judgement about me even though you haven't the foggiest who I am or what I do.

I'm so glad that Catholics only accept positions endorsed by Rush Limbaugh now. Excellent. Next you'll tell me that Catholics should line up to support tea-bag parties and Glen Beck's call for armed revolt against non-existent socialist threats from Democratic government officials.

Actually, I surmise from your response that you pretty much agree with the hypocricy of the Catholic Church so long as it conforms to your right-wing point of view.

Catholicism should equal Republicanism now...

To hell with Jesus and things he actually taught us.
Enough! | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 10:58 pm | #

some ringer took the college boards and a few to help this scum bitch enter and stay at Americas greatest university
I have written blogs for four years trying to get the joe pesci wanna be fired
the japanese have the custom that must be imitated here
first rev jenkins for hiring extending and not firing thismoronic sow at least three years ago
Jenkins should be fired sent to Africa or Afganistan as a chaplain- Swarbrick back to ambulance chasing
and all who particpated in hiring and retaining this jokster banned from our campus for life
who selects the next coach?
sue fat boy for fraud and restitution of money paid
send allied van lines tonight
jf dougherty | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:08 pm | #

John Walters has lots of good stuff this week, but these 2 quotes are particularly good:

Rinaldi, by the way, was one of two ESPN on-air personalities present at the press conference of the coach of a 6-3 team, proving yet again just how irrelevant Notre Dame football has become.

Charlie Weis. When we are not ripping him for being egomaniacal, we are begging him to evaluate himself.

Irony is not lost on J-Dub.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:15 pm | #

Wow, this was fun to walk into this morning...

Oakville: to address your question regarding why no Army personnel could return fire on the idiot at Fort Hood--weapons aren't typically carried Stateside. We don't just walk around with M-4's all the time. And even when they are issued, you're not issued ammunition unless you're AT the range to fire. Then you get checked pretty thoroughly (or, you used to) to make sure you're not taking any ammo off. Weapons are kept locked up in secure facilities with multiple locks and intrusion detection systems--you can't even run and get a weapon without it taking a while. To be honest, being over here in Afghanistan or Iraq and having a weapon and ammunition on everyone at all times is quite a culture shock at first, because it's so tightly controlled in normal circumstances. The shooter, by the way, was using personally bought hand guns and ammo, not military issue.

Dana--Gotcha. Point is, the whole debate is stupid. Unless Kelly is going to use his coaching position to speak at political rallies in favor of abortion, it doesn't matter. He should get a good cautioning from Jenkins when they hire him to "shut up" about non-football matters, and that's that. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether we agree with it or not. You're even allowed to (gasp) disagree with your employer, as long as you don't use that disagreement to cause friction. I can think the war in Afghanistan is the stupidest thing we've ever done, feel that the President (whoever he is) is a total moron, and believe that we'd be better off led by mice; I just can't express my opinions publicly or let it affect what I'm doing. Same principle applies.

All this ranting and raving, and I can't believe I didn't catch the reference to "Where the Wild Things Are" in Jay's last line before this...
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:17 pm | #

enough do you ever post about football?

ps your posts show a lot of self doubt
brian custer | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:22 pm | #

Enough, I have a hypothetical question for you:

If you were an admin for a blog devoted to following the current events most-closely related to politics and religion, and suddenly a couple of nincompoops showed up and hijacked the comments thread to endlessly debate about something totally unrelated, let's say... oh, I dunno, football...

what would you do?
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:25 pm | #

To those who defend Weis - why do you hate Notre Dame football? Why bother to read blogs, post comments and maybe show up at an occasional game? If you want shitastic performances guaranteed on almost a weekly basis despite an abundance of talent/resources I suggest you starting following the Illini, the Cubs or the Redskins, their fans are used to it. Most of us who still care about ND want it to excel at all things.
Thundershaker | Email | Homepage | 11.10.09 - 11:36 pm | #

baIrish: 2. Brian Kelly, Cinci. Not much I can add that hasn't been said, other than: "Hansel, he's so hot right now... Hansel."


HI-larious. Bravo, sir...1000 EDSBS cocktails to you.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:03 am | #

Guys:

Here is a somewhat lengthy analysis written as a 1977 alum who has a son at ND.

1. Under the leadership of Father Hesburgh and Father Joyce, ND elevated its academic reputation, its growtrh in the physical plant and its growth in the endowment to levels that exceeded Father Sorin's wildest dreams and exceed every Catholic University in the world and many non-Catholic universities. Father Joyce and Moose Krause (and later Gene Corrigan and Dick Rosenthal), while mistakes were made (hiring of Joe Kuharich) guided the Athletic Department from much more than a "bottom line" perspective and never, ultimately, sacrificed academic standards merely for victories as many schools have. No one loved ND more than Moose Krause, a/k/a "Mr. Notre Dame".

2. With the replacement of Fathers Hesburgh and Joyce with Fathers Malloy and Beauchamp, ND continued its tremendous growth. But Malloy did something else--he developed an "elisitst" mindset into the University culture. Alumni heard more and more that ND was becoming or had to become a Catholic Harvard or Yale. With the retirement of Rosenthal came the hiring of Wadsworth, probably the biggest single sports-related mistake ND has made in the last 20 years. Wadsworth's was a finacial type with a big ego and a pure "bottom line mentality", a far cry from Krause, Corrigan and Rosenthal (whom Holtz loved), but who fit Malloy's elisitst mindset. That ego clashed with Holtz's, leaving Holtz no choice but to resign and resulting in the somewhat hasty hiring of Davie.

3. What ensued were debacles both on and off the field including the Joe Moore lawsuit and Kimberly Dunbar scandal, which lead to Wadsworth dismissal, Beaucham's transfer and the hiring of Dr. Kevin White. White prided himself on the overall success of ND's athletic programs but never fully grasped the importance of the football program beyond the bottom line. Further, he had to fire Davie a year after he gave him a multi-year extension. He then endured the O'Leary fiasco and hired Ty.

4. The hiring of Willingham may have been the second biggest sports-related mistake ND has made in the last 20 years. Williham, due to a very poor work ethic, was fired and justifiably so. The aftermath of his reign is that he left the football program in deep trouble (2 OL recruited in 2 years!). The media talking heads have refused to acknowledge this because of Ty's race, plain and simple i.e., it is not politically correct. Anyone who follows ND football closely knew that Charlie's third year was going to be a disaster, and it was. Weis, to his credit has never publicly blamed Willingham for anything. Malloy and White did not support the firing of Ty and Malloy made his sentiments known-a big mistake on his part. Never criticize the man who signs your paycheck. Malloy wanted to remain President for 5 more years but the Board of Trustees said no. And recall what Willingham did--he played "the race card", something he could not do again after he destroyed things at Washington.

5. Given the disaray in the leadership of the Athletic Department since Rosenthal's departure, should anyone be surprised that the football program in particular has suffered?

6. Much has been said about ND's desire to hire Meyer after Willingham was fired. One of my friends, a Holy Cross priest and Father Jenkins' best fried, told me that Jenkins and Meyer did speak and that Meyer was willing to come to ND but on academic-related conditions unacceptable to Jenkins.

7. What is often overlooked is that during this time period, the number of scholarships has been limted to 85, much lower than when Ara, Devine and Holtz coached. Ara lost his starting RB (Eddy), QB (Hanratty) and All-American center (Goedekke) in the 1966 MSU game and still managed a tie. Who could do that today?

8. Much of ND's situation over the last 20 years has been compounded by the NBC contract, which has been a blessing and a curse. ABC/ESPN in particular hate ND because of this and never fail to find an opportunity to trash the school with biased guys like Sanders, Musberger, may, et al. ND has also taken a lot of flack from hypocrites like Paterno, who prides himself on the fact that PSU has advertising all over Beaver Stadium and leases luxury boxes at exorbitant rates with great views of Jumbotrons. Michigan just added a new press boxand luxury boxes at a cost of $225 million. The SEC and CBS have been in a "lovefest" for years.

9. All of the foregoing has resulted in great consternation to the NDNation. But ask yourselves, how many NCs has each of Michigan, OSU, Penn State, Alabama, Virginia Tech, USC, TCU, LSU, Auburn, Tennessee, Michigan State, Florida, Nebraska, Oklahoma and Texas, among others, won in the last 20 years? The answer in most cases is none or one and the most by any school is 2. OSU is the only Big Ten school that has won an undisputed NC in the last 40 years. And remember, no school, including the service acadamies, can match ND's graduation rate for athletes, including African-American athletes.

10. Where does that leave us? Should Weis be fired? Who should his replacement be i.e., who can ND get? Remeber, it took Beamer 8 years to build VaTech. POaterno had 4 losing season in 5 years at the turn of the century (20th, not 19th). Carr was fired for winning more than 70% of his games. Time will tell.

11. Finally, some say ND is no longer Catholic. This is a school where more than 80% of the students perform service work, as do thousands of alums. During the summers, alumni clubs sponsor several hundred students through the Center for Social Concerns to do charitable work. Being Catholic means much more than words--faith without actions is no faith at all. The list of what ND does everyday to demonstrate its Catholicism is far greater than what it is ever given credit for.

In summary, ND has had ups and downs before. The world is not collapsing around us. A new day wil ldawn, perhaps as early as the next three weeks.

GO IRISH.
lush | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:11 am | #

Enough !

Your pro-choice anti Catholic screed has religious fervor ...just a different kind.

Nate! My evaluation of such a hypothetical president would probably consider the term "moron" a compliment

Jim : Agree with you 100 percent.

BGS Monitors: I don't want to get banned and would request a clarification on acceptable topics . I am happy to go full bore on religion / or politics. ...if that is the decision.
The reality of ND football is grim enough without bringing in the sad state of affairs in the world.
Here's hoping!
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:37 am | #

"Wadsworth, probably the biggest single sports-related mistake ND has made in the last 20 years."

Agreed! The question is did Malloy or Wadsworth let Lou go? I have never been clear on this.

"Malloy wanted to remain President for 5 more years but the Board of Trustees said no."

I did not know this. Points to the Board of Trustees!

I believe that Jenkins made the correct call with President Obama and couragely did not back down against the protests of some of the biggest $ rollers. I'm hoping he makes the right call to end the Weis half-decade at the end of the Stanford weekend. Still does Jenkins have the final say or does the Board of Trustees or does Swarbrick? Sorry for the ND 101 questions on the chain of command.
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:51 am | #

Dana! Glad we agree. However, let me just clarify--those were simply examples of things I *could* think, but not examples of what I do think. I don't share my political opinions with anyone who doesn't hold the title of my wife. Nothing I hate more than military people openly denigrating the President, be that President Clinton, Bush, Bush Jr., or Obama. He's the boss, and regardless of what I think of the man, his policies, or life, the universe, and everything, the answer publicly is still 42 if he says it's 42. Just want to make sure that's clear.

Now, back to football...
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 1:09 am | #

Nate; Also not many MP's on military bases. If they are, probably at the time of the shootings, maybe on school patrol, crosssing guards, etc.
Spot on the fact that all weapons are locked away, even from officers on bases domiciled in the US.
The first guy I shot was taking a dump in the rice paddy I was in. The noive of that guy.
Enough, go pick up some plastic containers, it'll make you feel worthwhile, and not off the doobs, it's injurious to your long term health. Brhahahaha, not that you have a long term, we'll all be dying from "Global Warming," in a month or so, or 3 million.
Eat your vegies, and don't let me see you sneaking a Bacon Cheeseburger Deluxe.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 1:30 am | #

Jim, wish I could get a Bacon Cheeseburger Deluxe here in Herat. But at least the pizza's pretty good. That's what you get on an Italian base.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 1:45 am | #

Might be impossible to fire Charlie. The Sporting News reports this interesting bit of information:

"Late last year, a few media outlets reported that Weis' buyout wasn't as heavy as many believed. But sources told Sporting News this spring that it is that heavy—and then some. If ND fires Weis after this season, it owes him $18 million. It's cut and dried; don't believe anything else you hear."

$18 million. That is a lot of money. Better to work with what you have- A good coach and person names Weis - than fork over this much dough, plus more dough for the new guy
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 2:01 am | #

Enough! (and Jim)
I agree with you 100% politically. However, this should be a football blog. It would seem to me the question to ask if he can coach. If they do hire a Kelly, then tell him to leave politics out of the stadium.
I might be a little leery of his defensive coaching. They are in the 30s total D. It is good but ND needs to get D at least in the top 20.

Louie
You mentioned O'Leary as being a good coach. I was not impressed at all when ND hired him. He only had a .612 record at GT and is 31-40 at UCF. He is 83-73 total as HC.

WeAreSC

Riley is an interesting pick but he is a Corvaillis native so I would doubt if he would leave.

As for Muschamp, he was told he would be TX HC when Brown leaves but that may be awhile. He is a tremendous DC though. The question is if he would leave. Kelly, and Peterson would also be on my list along with Patterson.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 2:22 am | #

Lush

Nice concise history. One thing about Beamer though. He built VT from a doormat to a power so it would naturally take longer.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 2:30 am | #

Notre Dame is a Catholic University first, and a football program way down the line.
Hiring an openly, vocally, pro-abortion coach at Notre Dame would be like Grambling turning it's progam over to a Klansman.
RVLambo | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 2:50 am | #

jim,

I'm definitely going to keep off the doobs, thanks. That way I can be fully alert when I join you at the next KKK meeting or Tea Party gathering protesting Obama's fake birth certificate. See ya there.
Enough! | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 3:04 am | #

I gotta say, if I were Brian Kelly I'd tell ND "no thanks" after reading this thread. I can't believe people are comparing hiring him to hiring a klansmen. I'm sure he'd wearing "let's kill babies!!" pins on his jacket on the sidelines...

While we're at it, they should do a comprehensive review of the entire faculty and staff--ask each of them their views of Roe v. Wade, and anyone who answers out of line should be fired. Notre Dame can become the Catholic Bob Jones, the football program can be scrapped in the name of "Catholic Purity", and I'll tell people I went to Nanzan University when they ask for my alma mater.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 3:35 am | #

and ND can scratch me and my wife and Dana Payne from the record books, since none of us are Catholic. Wouldn't want to taint things.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 3:36 am | #

Nate

Just curious if you get the pizzas in mess hall or in restaurants.

Thanks
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 4:17 am | #

Unfortunately, Nate, it appears that is what some people want.

I would just ask them to look up the history of the term "Gleichschaltung" and get back to me. Is that really the road we want to go down?

(Not a comment I would normally make... but seriously... you're comparing Kelly to member of the KKK because he may support a woman's right to chose? Talk about a failure to understand gradations of severity)
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 4:37 am | #

Long time lurker here, this is my first post.

I do not wish to come across as hardline or offensive as Enough! but it does seem to me that some people become so focused on single issues (like abortion) that they lose sight of, or even contradict, other equally important issues that are just as important to Catholics.

That said, i'm not sure why everyone suddenly decided to start talking about politics. I read this blog throughout all of 2008 and I don't ever remember a thread being hijacked like this.

Maybe it's because everyone is still angry about the loss and just need to take their frustrations out on each other. Hopefully we can go back to talking about football.

Go Irish! FIRE WEIS!
James LeGros | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 5:27 am | #

Gold Wave:

I believe that any hiring or firing, given the dollars involved, will be made, at least with the approval of the Board, but it is Swarbrick's job in the first instance to do the homework and make recommendations to Father Jenkins.
lush | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 6:24 am | #

Wow, I have never seen this many posts to any mid-week thread. (BGS, can you confirm that?) That says something to me, about the level of outrage at the state of our program. Enough about issues wholly unrelated to football. Seems like the wrong place. I just sum my feeling up here: I am angry with Charlie, because it's ultimately his responsibility to field a team that is ready to play every week. While a let down performance is excusable, a group of let downs is not. I consider close wins and losses against clearly inferior teams (Michigan, MSU, Purdue, Washington) to be let downs as well. All in all, we have won 2 games this year in the fashion we should, Nevada and Wash St. The rest of this season is the unmistakable work of someone who has been underprepared and outcoached. It's his job to also coach his coaches, and the results on defense also fall on Chuck. If my Commander here constantly put us in situations where we "lost" because of focus or lack of prep, we would fire him, trust me. Leadership is leadership no matter where you are, and while the consequences of my Commander here making mistakes is much more grave, theprinciple is universal. Now it's up to Swarbrick to prove whether or not he can lead, and make the toughest decision of his professional life.
My anger makes me blind, I just hope Jack can take a moment and be sure of whatever decision he makes. I do not envy him.
IraqDave | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 7:17 am | #

i've mentioned in the past that I have been listening to Bill King's College football radio show for about a year now. Go to itunes for the podcasts. type in rivals radio.
he's good because he's extremely knowledgeable, fair and very funny. I recommend him because while I read BGS and several other Irish-only sites religiously (its become an addiction yes), its good to hear about the college football landscape overall (there are other teams out there) and unvarnished opinions on Notre dame.
wrt to charlie, last November he regularly said he deserves another year. "don't expect a MNC, because you won't get one, but with his talent coming back, the schedule, etc., he should do 9-3 or 10-2 and deserves a shot".
not surprisingly, this week he called it game over for chuck. give a listen to Monday's episode, Charlie and the Irish command 2/3 of the airtime.
personally, I am sorry that it has worked out the way it has but assuming that the Irish don't run the table from here (a 50:1 shot in my mind) its time to pull the pin, hire Brian kelly and re-load for 2010. we'll lose a few recruits on the way, probably save a bunch, Jimmy'll be gone, maybe Golden too, but we'll be better off.
Go Irish.
Fire Charlie.
oakvilleirish | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 8:26 am | #

Bottom line folks... is that for CW to even think about keeping this job he has to win out...

To do this would totally buck the trend of his last 5 years...ie these would be 2 quality wins, and also beating an opponent (UCONN) that will be playing there bowl game at ND.

No worries, this is never going to happen....

Really too bad, because a coaching change will again set us back... but gotta think there is a coach out there that can take these full cupboards and get this team in the mix quickly... ie holtz, saban, meyer all picked up some bad teams and made them winners in a short time
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 8:33 am | #

I've been trying to read through these comments piecemeal over the last few days and I admit I've not gone through them all. So if this repeats anything said above, my apologies.

Listening to the radio yesterday afternoon, can't remember what station or what host or what guest, but the guest was asked whether CW should be out. And he went through the diatribe about looking at the whole picture, is the team/program moving in the right direction, and I was sure that he would be one of those apologists who point out the currently winning record, the improvement over last year and the year before, the recruiting, etc.

To my surprise, he went through all that and still concluded the team is heading in the wrong direction despite all that. His rationale was that yes, they have a good offense, which shows periods of brilliance. But they only get going when the chips are down, they aren't just plain beating anyone of any real substance, and the defense while not to blame for all ills (I hope most can agree with that) is not instilling fear in anyone.

This, for me, harkened back to the conversation here last week, regarding the difference between a winning attitude/instinct, and a killer instinct. This team has the former, isn't even close to the latter, and for me that is a reflection on the coaching.

I hate to be on that side of things, and I fear what a change at this point will do to the near-term recruiting, but somehow that didn't make a difference for any other coaching change save for the last one when there wasn't anything to lose anyway. I also understand the "okay, then who" argument, but that is just avoiding the problem because the solution might be hard to arrive at.

I really thought giving this most recent painful loss time until mid week would provide me a different perspective, but it has instead steeled my resolve that something's gotta give here. The pros outweigh the cons. As gracefully as possible, it's time to move on.
IndyEsq | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 8:39 am | #

Indyesq,

That was same conclusion and may be the same guy from ESPN.. Matich, I think...

Overall direction is in the wrong way...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:04 am | #

Bottom line....

9-3 Charlie stays.

8-4 Swarbick has a tough decision but due to the buyout/economy, keeps Charlie.

7-5 Charlie's fired.

I think its laughable to think he would ever resign.
Adam B. | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:13 am | #

cautionary tale - - Casey Stengel was 59 years old before he won his first W.S. John Wooden coached UCLA 16 years before he won his first of many N.C.

If those with the power decide to make a change, the only Nihi Obstat or Imprimatur they should look for in a H.C. is: is he a good husband and father, does he recruit good kids who are willing to be challenged academically and athletically, do his recruits graduate,are his assistants first teachers of fundamentals, does he have a winning record, have his teams qualified for bowl games,will he be a solid representative of N.D. in the homes' of recruits, does he truly understand and can he survive the enormous pressure of being Head Football Coach at Notre Dame?
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:17 am | #

GB; The mess hall is all pasta, the pizza's at the pizzeria. Along with some major calzones. Great stuff, but I'm going to gain some serious weight with all these carbs if I'm not careful. How many guys can say they went to Afghanistan and GAINED weight?
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:21 am | #

Enough!,

I can answer your questions about why many Catholics seems pre-occupied with abortion over matters of government run health care, ending poverty, etc.

You see, an issue like government run health care isn't a moral issue. Its a political one. Is a question about the role of the State. You see, my church really doesn't have anything to do with that. But we do try to help people. Thats why we run so many hospitals all over the country trying to help people.

With regards to ending poverty, well, thats just dumb. Anyone who isn't a moron will tell you that you can't END poverty. There will always be poor people. Jesus was poor. There are still poor people. So while we try to help there too, we know we can't fix the problem.

And now, for your big question about why many Catholics are more outraged about abortion than other issues like those above. And here is the answer...



...its cause abortion involves the wholesale murder of babies. Church folk don't like the murder of babies.

I hope this cleared things up for me. Feel free to stop by and say hey if you're ever in Rome.
The Pope | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:41 am | #

Nate; I suggest humbly, we send that skinny@$$ CIC over there for some pasta and Hershey squirts.
ZOh yeah, they gave me "free" coffee at $tarbucks today, for being a vet.
Happy Veteran's Day. To all the tree hugging, pot smokin' Admin, bldg. hippies, screw you. Giggles and laughs, I'm never serious boyz, it's the easiest thing in the world to laugh all the nit-wits, half-wits and Pelosi-ites. Who by the way has accomplished more in her few years as House Maj. Whip, then "her Thighness," and the pissed off Princeton grad, in the WH.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:42 am | #

hey, I draw the line at eating babies, regardless of the time of day.

just sayin'
okiedomer | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:43 am | #

Hey domer03inflorence ,
A woman has a choice when she chooses to spread her legs, not afterwards.
ron burgandy | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 10:24 am | #

Alright guys, that's seriously enough abortion talk. It's a massively important issue to a lot of people, myself included, but this is not the venue to discuss it. Just stop.
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 10:28 am | #

Ron, I'm not sure if you were trying to be ironic or not... nevertheless I fail to see what that has to do with anything - anything at all - that I have posted above.

I've been calling for cloture on the abortion talk since it began.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 10:31 am | #

I propose the following compromise: If there's any evidence that Kelly has ever had an abortion, or counseled any of his players to have an abortion, he's out of contention.

Short of that, as far as "values" that are relevant to an ND football coach, I'm much more concerned about his position on graduation rates and eye-gouging.
Mike81 | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 10:38 am | #

thank you baIrish.

The abortion discussion doesn't really belong on a college football blog. Its near impossible to change anothers abortion opinion, and it is even exponentially more difficult in a forum like this.
WeAreSC | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 10:40 am | #

This thread has made me very glad that I didn't take a job in Biology at ND. I'd hate to have the threat of imprisonment for heresy hanging over my research!

Although I'm not surprised -the zeal:thought ratio in U.S. religion is by far the highest among first world countries Heck, we compete pretty well with some second world countries even!.
obediah | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 10:42 am | #

First, Nate, thanks for doing what you do for us over there, keeping the baddies from coming over here. Tip of the hat to you.

Second, if (and I say if) Charlie is gone at end of this year, we should all give him a big round of applause and thanks. He deserves it.

Guys, remember the situation after we, justifiably, fired TW. This was a job that few people wanted. We got our choices down to Charlie and Tommy Clements - two guys with zero head coaching experience. Remember that? When it leaked out that the school was interviewing Charlie, a lot of us said "who the hell is he?"

Charlie took over a team that was dispirited, with guys playing out of position, and the best receiver (the Shark) sitting on the bench. He had huge talent holes in the junior classes, and a brutal schedule.

What he has done is to turn the program around, building talent and getting quality kids. While arrogant, he is a good guy. He buys into the academic rigor that the school pushes on the players (highest team GPA, etc). He does the off field stuff very well. He made ND relevant again.

However, while he has improved the situation and turned things around, he does not appear to be the guy who can get the team to the next step. He is a good to OK coach, at least on the offensive side, but not the kind of great coach needed. (A bad analogy would be he is to ND what Doug Collins was to the Bulls before Phil Jackson came in and took them to the promised land.)

Third, while I think that Charlie is not and probably will never be "the guy" long term, I have no idea if he will be fired at the end of the year, no matter how we do in the final three games. I have my opinion, but it does not matter. It also does not matter what Swarbrick thinks (though he gets a say and is in the room). Frankly, even Fr. Jenkins will not make this decision. The decision will be made by the board of trustees, particularly the executive committee. They may care what alums think (at least the other old, rich alums they hang with), and maybe even notice (a tiny bit) what bloggers are saying, but ultimately will make their decision despite what others think (this is really what Lou was saying in that farce of a "court room" ESPN segment).

I think we will know one way or another before the bowl game, but until then let's just calm down, and pull for the Irish.
Mark G | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 11:02 am | #

Winner winner chicken dinner. Adam B. has nailed it. Win out, he stays. Two more losses, he gone. One more loss, tough, tough call, but I think he still stays, especially with a bowl win. Lose out, there is no possible way ND can retain Weis. Anyone who thinks he will resign or voluntarily step down to OC, you're out of your mind. I've heard that whatever the buyout is, the alumni will raise it or at least a very good portion of it.
Buzz | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 11:29 am | #

Lush, nice comments. I generally agree that the sky is not falling, but on the other hand Charlie needs to demonstrate some fire in the belly leadership these next 3 weeks and it may well be that he doesn't have it. In years gone by, not only would we win the Pitt game (this week) but we would blow them out and then carry on for the next couple of games. That fury seems to be missing. That said, a very specific complaint I have about the critics is that inferentially they are all saying that every team but SC is lousy and not even worth breaking a sweat over, and thus every loss is beyond belief.This is suchy a false premise but it keeps getting repeated. Purdue is actualy quite good based on its play. Stanford and Washington are quite good. It seems to me that if any given team can hold its own against more than one top team, then that team has earned the right to be called pretty good.Unfortunately, most of our opponents fall into this category.
All of that said, we do need to win out and win the bowl game.As someone said, no more excuses!
canuck 75 | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 11:39 am | #

I thought the three things people are NOT supposed to talk about are religion, politics, and sex. Or is it Money? We've covered all 4 in this thread. Haha.

Can't wait for something new to bump this talk back to the task at hand. My first thoughts were Odds & Sodds, Statistically Speaking, or even a photo gallery post, but all of those look backwards and I'm ready to look forward. Go Irish! Beat the Panthers!
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 11:45 am | #

So, who's all in favor of the death penalty?

just kidding.
WeAreSC | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 11:52 am | #

nice SC :-)
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 11:59 am | #

Erik, those are topics to avoid in polite company.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:02 pm | #

Focusing on Saturday: ND will have to play its most inspired football of the year to beat Pitt, which means no red zone bermuda triangle BS, no sissy tacklin', and no predictable offensive/defensive schemata. Easy, right?
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:04 pm | #

Thank you for your service Nate. May God bless you and keep you safe.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:06 pm | #

Thanks lush and Mark G for clarification on how the shots are called. The Board of Trustees and Fr. Jenkins will probably take in account the decreased donation factor if Weis will be kept on. It might be more significant than the cost of the buyout in both the short and long terms. Maybe BGS should start a Paypal account for us readers to do our share:)
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:15 pm | #

Weis brought up his own salary in the Pitt preview press conference:

By the way, John, mine is grossly misreported in case you're wondering. And one step further while we're on that subject, if you would like to have my tax returns I'd be more than willing to give them just as long as you were willing to pay the difference between what's been reported and what I actually make... You better have a seven figure check ready, that's all I have to say.

That's salary, not buyout. I've seen a range of numbers for the buyout. As for decreased donations, I know that Fr. Joyce was on record saying that donations did not correlate with football success. My source for that is the book Talking Irish by Steve Delsohn. It's a good read.

stewvee, the Irish have shut down a couple of running games that were producing well, right? It seems like that was true of Purdue and BC, at least. Clearly it was not the case with Navy. I'll agree that ND needs to be inspired, but I'm not sold that Pitt is really that much better than some of the teams the Irish have already played. Regardless, it would be nice to see better tackling.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:39 pm | #

ENOUGH

WHY TAKE TO THE STREETS TO ENSURE HEALTH CARE FOR THE UNINSURED IF, THE WAY TO PAY FOR IT TAKES SERVICES AWAY FROM THOSE WHO HAVE IT OR SPENDS IT ON KILLING INNOCENTS(ABORTION AND DENYING OR LIMITING SERVICES TO THE ELDERLY). READ THE DAMN BILL BEFORE YOU IMPLY THAT CATHOLICS PRACTICE SELECTIVE MORALITY. THOSE WHO WROTE THE BILL WANT US TO HAVE HEALTH SERVICES RATIONED LIKE EUROPE.
IF YOU LIKE IT SO MUCH MOVE THERE AND TAKE NANCY PE"LOUSY" WITH YOU1
Doc Possum | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:53 pm | #

Thanks for fighting for our country Nate.

Have a safe and happy vets day.

Go Irish!!!
Aaron b | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:55 pm | #

Doc - stop. We had managed to have a number of posts that did not mention politics.

this is a football blog.

take your politics home and come back when you're carrying a pigskin.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 12:58 pm | #

Doc; Don't mind Florence, it's a girl's name.
Welcome home fellow traveler, hahahaha, "Enough" is still sleeping off his vigil at Mohammad's civil execution. Where be the good ship 0bama? He could/should have given his fellow Mooslem a pass. Brhahahaha.
I love CW.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 1:06 pm | #

The Boyz are defending CW. Why not do it on the field, Hey?

by Tim Prister

Latest Notre Dame News
Tuesday depth chart updates
Monday update on Rudolph
Countdown to kickoff: Pitt

Golden Tate, Sam Young and Trevor Robinson say it's not Charlie Weis' fault that the Irish lost to Navy, and that they'll stand behind their head coach…Irish motivated to defeat a Top 10 team…Many Irish players skip their off day…Frank Verducci impressed with freshman halfback Theo Riddick…Similarities between Pittsburgh, USC defensive lines.

Way to take 9 games in Frank, you aren't as sharp as your bro'
Tommy Verducci, of Sports Illustrated, the best baseball writer in Amerika.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 1:09 pm | #

BC and Purdue aren't even close to Pitt and I wouldn't say we shut either one of them down. Sure, we won, but it wasn't like it was definitive in either situation.

I just want to see these guys looking like they want to be on the field. Like they want to win. I haven't seen that since late in the USC game.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 1:12 pm | #

CW's presser is unbelievable.. he just will never get it..

Charlie the Titanic is sinking... that's ok I don't change... glub, glub, glub

He sure has come a long way from the trash talking, 6-5 aint good enough coach who entered 5 years ago... I just don't get him constantly trying to get people to feel sorry for him and bringing his family into it...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 1:21 pm | #

I wouldn't be too terribly concerned with Charlie's contract. For one, it probably is grossly misreported. Secondly, the main reason that the contract was signed was to scare off would-be suitors (wow...what a long time ago that was). What a contract actually pays and what it COULD pay are entirely different. Incentives could have been built in that allowed the administration to give out enough information to allow reporters to write things like "the deal reportedly could be worth as much as 30 to 40 million over ten years". That doesn't mean anything though, could have been much less, especially considering that any incentives built in likely dealt with beating USC (never happened), winning 10 games (only happened once), and going to BCS games (once after contract was signed.

Also, just because the buyout is reportedly high doesn't mean anything. The contract could have easily been structured to include a very high buyout for would-be suitors and a relatively standard buyout in the case he was fired. Knowing Weis's attitude at the time, I'm sure he was confident enough at the time that he would stay, and confident enough that he would succeed enough to never be fired that he wouldn't be bothered by this.

Now, given, I'm just guessing at all of this. The administration has never said much about the contract, so we have too. All I'm saying is that I sincerely doubt that the contract would in any way impede the decision by the University at the end of the season.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 1:41 pm | #

For what it's worth, BC and Pitt each played NC State: BC 52 NCState 20, NCState 38, Pitt 31. That proves nothing, but it is interesting to note.

GB, thanks for the reply about O'Leary. I guess I was using "good coach" broadly, in the same sense that the ND administration saw fit to hire him. It was not meant as my personal evaluation as, at the time, I was as skeptical of him as you were.

Just for kicks, I looked at Nick Saban's record in five seasons at Michigan State: 34-24-1 (.585) per rolltide.com. His only head coach gig before that was for a year at Toledo, where he took a team that had won 6 games in each of its two prior years and won 9 under his leadership. That sounds familiar...

I understand that nobody, especially those with long histories as Irish fans, wants the ND job to be an "internship". However, it remains possible that our "intern" will graduate into a full professional. What none of us really wants is for ND to be a place to get a start, like MSU, before moving on to a "real" program like LSU.

The loss to Navy still smarts, but I keep coming back to the fact that the Irish have been in every game this season. Maybe they'll get smashed by Pitt, but I doubt it. More likely, there are 3 or 4 nail-biters left on the schedule. As for what to do with Weis, I agree with those who've said that they don't envy Jack Swarbrick. He could be a genius or a goat either way.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 2:15 pm | #

1. Thanks to all Veterans for what they have done and continue to do for our country. As Jim Rome said this morning (don't know if this blog likes/hates him) there is no profession more noble.

2. Politics definitely have no place on this blog. But this is a NOTRE DAME football blog, and last time I checked Notre Dame does claim to be Catholic. So personally I don't know how anyone can ever separate religion from the school or any of the school's sports teams that represent the school. Religion, specifically Catholicism is an integral part of Notre Dame, its football team, and thus any blog that claims to be about/support the Notre Dame Football Team. So stop saying that a fundamental Catholic/religious issue has nothing to do with a football team that represents a Catholic/religious institution.

3. People really need to stop exaggerating the comments about abortion. No one here has sad that any/most/all the players/students/faculty must be devout Catholics. What people are saying is that the few real leaders of the University should represent and stand for everything the University claims to be.

4. Something tells me money is going to play little to no factor in the determination to fire Weis. What is the real value of 18 million to an institution like ND and the prestigious Alumni/board of trustees who make all the decisions? I can't imagine something like 18 mill is really that big an issue.

5. where's stadium dude chip been? i haven't read any poignant defenses of Weis in a while.
Trevor | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 2:32 pm | #

(A bad analogy would be he is to ND what Doug Collins was to the Bulls before Phil Jackson came in and took them to the promised land.)

Nate! Call your office!
The Guys Get Shirts! | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 2:40 pm | #

Jim:

I wish my Dad {and your fellow Alum} had met you as you sound alot like him.

Interestingly enough when my dad was visiting me at ND in the 70s , we ran into the future FOX guy Andrew Napolitano [PU ,and ND law}.
My dad and I were trying to get some indoor tennis time at the ACC. We had previously consumed some gin and tonics.
So the circle is complete.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 3:26 pm | #

All the best to all in the Armed Forces...even last week's opponent!
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 3:28 pm | #

lush - very well done. thank you.
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 3:54 pm | #

Dana, your Pop sounds like a great guy. Wish I had met him. I met Nappy a few times at the Princeton Club in the city. Wasn't a member of the Tiger Club, harump, as I was, giggles.
But neither was "client #9, and crazy Jim Cramer.
The beauty of Notre Dame, Dana, is it's Catholicism, first and foremost, and linked to the fact of my Pop being a 1927 grad. I'm getting old Dana, did I tell you he ran track under KK Rockne for three (3) years?
take care of yourself, Dana, and also to Nate and the other fellow stationed in Iraq, and the Avenno air base in Italy.
Aveeno, we're the CIA use to depart it's good guys into Tito's Yugoslavia.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 4:09 pm | #

Jim:

Ithink I mentioned my Dad was Tiger too. I think they were the last to go coed.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 5:02 pm | #

Jim:

My dad was ran track there in the late 40s. WorldWar II kind of interrupted things for about 4 years.

Pete Morgan was the assistant track coach , later track coach at Princeton after he left

Pete was an ND grad.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 5:07 pm | #

Louie, If Charlie were to get fired or voluntarily "take time off to spend with family", a 93.5% chance of happening, where would he go after a year or so of recharging his batteries at home? Faust, Lou H., Bob Davie, and TW did not exactly go to other premier coaching jobs after Notre Dame.
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 5:33 pm | #

ABC Coverage map for this Saturdays game, 83% of the country will get Pitt-ND game

http://www.hdsportsguide.com/fil.../ abc1114800.bmp
craig, lincoln ne | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 5:36 pm | #

We were the last ones standing, Dana. The commies/progressives/libs/Leninist/Maoist wore the boyz down.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 6:01 pm | #

I think Charlie would go right back into the NFL and be the OC for the Pats again.
New England hasn't won a Super Bowl since he has departed. Charlie may not be head coach material, but he is definitely an outstanding offensive coordinator.
Whatever happens over the next three games will largely determine his fate, if it hasn't already been sealed.
GO IRISH!!!!
Jerry | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 6:07 pm | #

Veterans Day.
http://video.google.com/ videosea...+thunderstruck#
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 6:07 pm | #

A fair question, joe. Charlie's fifth season at ND is not turning out like Nick Saban's fifth in Lansing, and his ties to ND make it unlikely that another college program will ever try to lure him away. I was referring more to his successors in that regard. Washington has been a premier program at least as recently as ND; it stands to reason that if they'd already been at a premier level, they would not have been looking for a coach at the time they went after Ty.

Anyway, it's hard to see ND becoming a "prep school" for head coaches, but it would be nice to be a graveyard.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 6:40 pm | #

er, *not* to be a graveyard (right, Dr. Freud?)
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 6:41 pm | #

Trevor, I think StadiumDudeNamedChip now goes by Weis' Dad. Whether they are one poster or two, I salute them for being so oblivious. If they are trolls, they do an excellent job.
ndfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 6:45 pm | #

PTI just reported about Brian Kelly and ND
irishjh2 | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 7:04 pm | #

Received my bowl lottery ticket form. Should I put in for two tix to the BCS championship game? Only $200 per.
Just wondering | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 7:09 pm | #

The Northwestern coach is also getting a lot of buzz to be the Next coach. Mike Fitgerald is young in 30's and Irish origin, not education. He was a linebacker at Northwestern. So he knows all about combining fine academics with high level sports.
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 7:22 pm | #

Fitzgerald, left out the z
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 7:25 pm | #

I want WEIS to win so bad just to stick it to you untrue DOMER fans. The lady on the dome shames you. I look at the year so far and say this team is way better then last year. they will keep getting better and next spring board us to the BCS hunt.
I just don't get where a bunch of hot head DOMERS on some blog think they KNOW more about college football then WEIS. Do you really think Brain kelly could get it done here ?? NO WAY !! JON GRUDEN this dude has not been in south bend since he left CLAY HIGH and has not done one thing for his old HIGH SCHOOL either . JON GRUDEN sucks. by the way. How many super bowls have the pats won since chuck left??? ZERO. If we let WEIS GO then so does the FOOTBALL program. GO IRISH BEAT PITT. IN WEIS WE TRUST LIKE IT OR NOT!!!
StadiumDudeNamedChip | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 8:12 pm | #

StadiumDude, are you also Weis dad?
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 8:20 pm | #

Just let evey one know i have been posting as my name for years. The reason I have not been around is because my grandmother is fighting Cancer, so i have other things to do then defend Weis. GOD BLESS
StadiumDudeNamedChip | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 8:21 pm | #

Chip,

I hope he wins out and keeps his job. This program is light years ahead of where it was in 2001 or 2004. Unfortunately it seems like Weis is a victim of unrealistic expectations.

New coaches every 5 years don't equal long term success. At some point you need to let someone finish the job.

This is year 4 of charlies recruits. Let him have one more year with a finished roster, coaching continuity and another recruiting windfall.

All this handwringing does is give people something to use against us in recruiting.
Aaron b | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 8:25 pm | #

Actually I wish the academic world had the same hard -headed scrutiny as
the coaching world.
Tenure limits the incentive to perform. It also creates hardship for younger people who want to break into a discipline.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:01 pm | #

jim masterson is the typical conservative...

Big mouth, no brain.
Enough! | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:05 pm | #

joe, you not only left out the 'z' in 'Fitzgerald', you misspelled 'Pat' as 'Mike'. ;-)

My question is whether he's a Northwestern guy with no inclination to leave his school. I guess that kind of loyalty didn't apply to Rich Rodriguez in West Virginia, but then that has played out in predictable ways, too.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:05 pm | #

Enought; Me and brainless Bill Buckley.
Walk by a Homeless person, and call DC, that's about all you will ever do.
Oh yeah, you and 0bama, bite me!
Brhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:38 pm | #

I love CW. btw.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 9:38 pm | #

Hey while we are at it why not blame weis for the unemployment rate. or the war on terror. Gas prices went up lets fire WEIS. Globe warming, its due to weis not been able to game plan. Lets here what you say WHEN ND beats down Pitt. Also for doing so bad it looks like we are goin to bring another top 15 recuriting class in. NOT BAD CHUCK
StadiumDudeNamedChip | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 10:25 pm | #

Guys, let's stop the name calling before the maturity level of this thread drops to Michigan levels.
dkt | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 11:15 pm | #

"Received my bowl lottery ticket form. Should I put in for two tix to the BCS championship game? Only $200 per."

That's a good deal for the TX- AL game or whoever plays in the title game. If you are "lucky" then you can see Pitt play again in a BCS game.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 11:33 pm | #

StadiumDude, you can't give Weis credit for beating Pitt if you don't give him any blame for losing to Navy. And save us the "he doesn't coach the defense" bit--he DOES coach the defense. The HEAD coach is responsible for both sides of the ball. If he isn't responsible for the defense, he's not the head coach.

On behalf of all the military over here, I thank you guys for your thoughts. I was wondering where all of a sudden the "kudos" came from, then I remembered belatedly that it was Veteran's Day. Don't really feel I deserve it--my biggest complaints are being away from the wife and kids, not having a hot shower, and long lines at the Italian Dining Facility. But I see the reports every day of guys out there getting shot at, shot up, blown up, and the like, and while I can't tell you exactly what I do, everything we do goes to support them. Please keep them in your prayers, and regardless of your politics, please take the word of someone on the ground that we DO have a purpose here--the #1 thing that can defeat our efforts is the perception that our own people and government don't support us being here. All the other NATO countries look to us for guidance, so if we go, they go, and if we don't succeed in creating stability and a government that can eventually provide security for its own people, then every single life we've lost here is a waste.

Sorry, got off topic. Anyways, thanks for all your thoughts and prayers. If you feel you want to do more, I always encourage people to donate to the USO. They provide an amazing array of services for us, including internet access and webcams so that soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines can see their families at home.

Thanks guys, now back to football...
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.11.09 - 11:56 pm | #

Pat Fitzgerald is the name and Weis will stay through next year. Just like the hard times in 07 and 08, Swarbrick wood be a fool to disrupt continuity now. There is improvement. Our Irish have a legit chance to make a run at the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP next year. Give it time, just like novacane...it always works, Remember the Titans. I don't understand why fans, in the midst of these times, won't give it a little patience. It's the immediate gratification society we live in.
t | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:00 am | #

DC Brown is miffed by Navy Coach's comments about the Defense being no different from last year????

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnatio...k-at-navy- coach

This would carry a lot more weight with me IF WE HAD WON THE GAME!!!!
GoldenStateDomer | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:07 am | #

If you bring in Brian Kelly, of which you will be bringing in his staff, they have no experience like Tenuta, Brown, Verducci, etc. You bring in division 1AA coaches, that's what you'll get. And b/c of the polls and what have you, that's all you'll get b/c last time I checked Cincinatti doesn't play USC, Michigan, Purdue, Michigan St., etc. Get the drift? They won at Rutgers, SE Missouri State, at Oregon State, Fresno State, @ U of Mike Haywood, at S. FLA, Louisville, @ Syracuse, and UConn. OK, now I understand. It's frickin Notre Dame!!! Why don't you have more patience. When was the last time a National Championship was won? This program is under the spotlight continuously. Give it a break, give Weis a break. So they weren't ready to go last week. So the defense din't have couldn't stop the fullback last week. Yer own arrogance is like the coaching staff. They fucked up, they looked past em. ND's arrogant, Weis is arrogant, YOU are arrogant. Let it ride. It's gonna happen. I guess we find out Saturday night. Just b/c you don't blow out DurPue and Washington, Sparty and don't beat USC, etc... It's a one game at a time.
t | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:26 am | #

Corwin Brown talked about a "malicious" cut block Navy did on Robert Blanton. Can anyone find video of this?
jugmed | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:48 am | #

t,

what are you thoughts on the continuity in the lack of fundamentals such as tackling? or any sembalance of a running game to hold a lead?

I had the same sinking feeling watching the BC game as I did Navy. When was the last time a player was called "well coached" on our team other than JC?
dkt | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:50 am | #

semblance*

and jugmed that play definitely happened. I remember seeing it live and having one of those "that can't be legal" moments.
dkt | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:51 am | #

Given that its Veteran's day I guess I should be proud that our military has become so powerful that the NAVY football team can beat our team in our own house. This season is a lost opportunity, instead of BCS bound we will end up wit three or four losses and a trip to some toilet bowl. If Jimmy decides to skip his last year this season will have been our high water mark.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:58 am | #

jugmed

Yes, the "block" on Blanton was actually a late hit and was way was on the opposite side of the field after the runner went out of bounds.

Fortunately, it drew a flat for a personal foul.

It looked vicious. And I don't remember Niumatalolo getting upset at the Navy offender.

Ashley
Ashley Russell | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 1:26 am | #

"If you bring in Brian Kelly, of which you will be bringing in his staff, they have no experience like Tenuta, Brown, Verducci, etc. You bring in division 1AA coaches, that's what you'll get."

....yeah, because Tenuta has been SOOOO GREAT for our defense...

"When was the last time a National Championship was won? "

By Notre Dame, you mean? 1988...wouldn't that be a reason we're impatient?

"Give it a break, give Weis a break. So they weren't ready to go last week. So the defense din't have couldn't stop the fullback last week. Yer own arrogance is like the coaching staff. They fucked up, they looked past em. ND's arrogant, Weis is arrogant, YOU are arrogant."

So, it's our fault for being arrogant, but the coaches get a pass for not preparing and having the team "ready to go"? Last I checked, that's what they get paid for...


"Let it ride. It's gonna happen. I guess we find out Saturday night. Just b/c you don't blow out DurPue and Washington, Sparty and don't beat USC, etc... It's a one game at a time."

It's gonna happen, but not with Weis. Just because you don't do the things expected of ND...we should what? Believe that eventually, if we wish upon a star, we will? It's one game at a time...that's correct. And one game at a time, Charlie has shown us he's a good person, an offensive mind when he's not out-thinking himself, but incapable of putting together a complete team, complete game, and complete win.

Brian Kelly and his I-AA coaching staff have the #4 team in the country right now. With a team of nobodies, including cast-offs from ND. But you're right, he couldn't POSSIBLY do that at ND...better to stick with our current mediocrity and get used to 8-4 as the high water mark.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 1:30 am | #

I can categorically state that Stadium Dude is not me! I am a better defender of the right. The right of Notre Dame to have quality Charlie Weis over the flavor of the month.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 1:31 am | #

Charlie has taken every hit from the media in the teeth and he keeps rocking. If he can do this with all of this pressure, imagine what he can do when he gets that much needed vote of confidence from the Board of Directors later this year? The team is on a definite up, for sure next year, and given the way the schedule is laid out, it is BCS all the way baby! Let Weis be Weis, my green friends!
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 1:40 am | #

nate,
I'm on the Kelly bandwagon. Interesting that he has almost a better resume than UM at the time UM left Utah.

He'd be huge and I think if we don't get him we're screwed.

I don't understand this fascination with Gruden or Peterson. Kelly has done a heck of alot more than Peterson. He just flies under the radar more than anyone.
Ashley Russell | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 1:43 am | #

As we all get ahead of ourselves regarding My Man CW, who I love, but maybe the judgement on whether he can coach or not is still up in the air, is this.........does Notre Dame poach from the Big East?
They didn't poach Ty from Stanford, he was disappointed they didn't ask him on the first go round, and ND asked for and received permission from the Tree admin.
Also to set the record stright on O'Leary, the prefabrication on his resume had been there through his tenure with the SD Chargers, and GT, so why in the hell would ND be questioning his CV?
Getting bck to CW, there is not a team on the schedule that ND should have lost to.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 2:35 am | #

BTW, cn someone lokk at play #24 in the Navy game. The Middies are known, as is U$C for their cut blocking.
Last updated: November 11, 2009 9:50 p.m. Fired up
Tony KrauszThe Journal Gazette
Notre Dame defensive backs coach Corwin Brown, who is also an associate head coach and co-defensive coordinator, did not appreciate Navy head coach Ken Niumatalolo's assessment of why the Midshipmen had success on offense in last Saturday's 23-21 victory at Notre Dame Stadium.

Navy never trailed in their second win in three years over Notre Dame, and the Midshipmen ran for 348 yards.

"He didn't want something to be misconstrued, and he said it, regarding how we prepared and what we prepared to do," Brown said Wednesday. "I'm going to tell you this, we came out in the second half, minus one mess up, they don't get anything. But whether you think it's the right thing to say or not, in this profession and all the classy guys I watched and played under and studied, they would never say a thing like that. To say that we didn't prepare well or we didn't have a good game plan, that's crazy."

Niumatalolo, whose team was held to 178 rushing yards in last season's loss to Notre Dame, did try to soften what he said about the Irish's defense after Saturday's game.

"I think the one thing that helped us, and I really hope this doesn't come across wrong, but I think the thing that helped us this year was last year because we knew that they'd line up the same way," Niumatalolo said. "We didn't execute very well last year, and coming into this year they did a great job against us last year defensively, so we had a pretty good clue that they were going to come back and do the same things as they did last year, and we had a few things. We were expecting that same defense that we saw last year.

"But it was still a grind. I mean, they're still a great defense, and we thought we had some alignments in some of our formations. But it was a grind to get yardage against them even though we thought we had some numbers advantages in certain formations."

Brown also attacked the way Navy plays on offense. He criticized the Midshipmen's blocking style and was angry about the hit cornerback Robert Blanton took on Navy's 24th play of the game, according to Brown.

Navy's Nick Henderson was penalized for a personal foul on the play, costing the Midshipmen five yards.

"What I think is crazy is a lack of imagination for what they do. I don't ever get up here and talk about the illegal cut blocks. They hit (linebacker Brian Smith) illegally last year and put him out. The hit on (Blanton) was one of the most malicious plays I've ever seen since I've been playing. I called him about it. I told him I thought it was very poor. He probably thought I called because we lost. I was going to say something to him before the game, but I didn't. Very malicious. And in this game, which we are supposed to be playing for our kids and we are working for our kids, you don't let your players do something like that. "

When asked about what his conversation with Niumatalolo was like, Brown said he didn't want to get into that.

"To me, if you have to say something and preface it by saying I hope this is not misconstrued or taken the wrong way, it's probably going to be taken the wrong way. So don't say it," Brown said. "In this profession, everybody game plans well."

Brown wouldn't say if he felt Niumatalolo was being malicious when he commented on the Irish's defensive game plan.

"I don't know him that well," Brown said. "I just know I wouldn't do something like that, and I'm not the best person in the world."

Notre Dame will play Navy next season on Oct. 23 at the Meadowlands in East Rutherford, N.J.

And Brown had one word when asked if he was looking forward to that meeting.

"Absolutely," Brown said.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 2:38 am | #

Corwin Brown: "In this profession everyone game plans well."

Jo Mama: Ya, everyone except Notre Dame. Brown is just too much of a pussy to admit that the defense DIDN'T game plan well. So now he's crying because someone has called him out on it.

Corwin Brown: "Absolutely" looking forward to meeting Navy next year.

Jo Mama: Too bad they weren't looking forward to that meeting this year.
Jo Mama | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 3:02 am | #

Nate,

you are one person in a unique position to confirm or disconfirm a suspicion.

LIving in Italy I've heard the press say many times that Italian MRE's are then envy of the troops of all NATO countries. They are apparently the best, most decadent, and even include some sort of liquor.

Have you run across any? Or in your experience do they just take stove-top burners and a pot of pasta out into the bush?
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:23 am | #

Florence: I'll have to check. We've got a pile of Spanish MRE's on the counter in my office, haven't had the guts to try one yet.

Don't know about in the MRE's, but the Italians do have juiceboxes of wine in the chow hall at dinner. I don't drink as it is, and even if I did I'm prohibited by US regs from partaking, but I can't imagine a kid-size franzia is any good. Still, here it doesn't really matter, I suppose. And of course, they sell liquor (wine, beer, grappa, etc.) in the 2 pizzerias here, after 1900.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 7:11 am | #

I like the idea of italian soldiers in uniform with sippy-boxes of chianti.

god i love this country for all of its strangeness.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 7:14 am | #

I'm going to have to rat out what Nate's duty is. He monitors BGS for the U.S. Army.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 7:24 am | #

GB:
nice.
oakvilleirish | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 8:24 am | #

jugmed-

im sure its in the highlights, or you can just watch the game over again on hulu or wherever it is posted. It was much, much more than a late hit; it was the dirtiest play i've seen all year at any level, even if it was on i-dont-deserve-a-scholarship-blanton. It was 40 yards away from the play, way after the play, and the navy player went at blantons knees from behind and crumpled him. Blanton was very, very, very lucky that he didn't sustain a career ending injury...it was that kind of play.

you can't see much here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y...h?v=yiA- 4wlcavg but blanton was facing the sideline, where the play had ended out of bounds, and this takes place in the middle of the field.
Sause | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 9:08 am | #

yeah agreed. i remember arguing with my wife that he should be ejected from the game. total intent to injure.
oakvilleirish | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 9:20 am | #

GB:

There will be a knock at your door in the middle of the night. You may want your wife and kids to be out of the house.

Have a nice evening!

XOXOXOX

--The US Army
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 9:54 am | #

This season is a lost opportunity, instead of BCS bound we will end up wit three or four losses and a trip to some toilet bowl.

Not that Tom, no doubt this season is a disappointment. However, the Gator and Cotton are not equivalent to the Hawaii and Insight. Beating a decent ACC or Big XII opponent in a decent bowl would still be progress. I hope that the Irish know that there's still plenty to play for this season.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:15 am | #

With that said, 7 or 8 wins and a trip back to the Insight Bowl would not be progress, no matter the opponent or outcome.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:17 am | #

When I watched the game live at my friend's gamewatch he must have had HD or a different sized TV because the horrible block on Blanton was in full view on the left side of the screen. When I watched my DVR copy at home what I remember of the left side of the screen ended up being cut off and all I could see was the defender diving off the edge of the screen and Blanton falling backward into view. I'm really glad I got to see it live at my friend's house because it was a terrible cheap shot. The play was clearly over, on the complete other side of the field, and Blanton was just standing there or walking. I agree, Sause, he very easily could have had his career ended, and I'm shocked the player wasn't ejected.

At the risk of sounding like sour grapes, does anyone know if the player who made that hit and wasn't ejected came back later in the game to make some really good plays? Could that non-ejection have cost us the game more than we realize?
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:27 am | #

Nate,

gotta disagree about 8-4 being the best a Charlie team can do.

How quickly y'all forget 2005/2006

figure a guy SHOULD bank some goodwill from a fanbase after 2 bcs games.

Losses are going to happen to every program. Florida,Usc,Texas and Boise St would go undefeated every year if that wasn't the case.

So would the Colts, Celtics and Yankees.

If constant perfection is your expectation the expect constant disappointment.
Aaron b | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:38 am | #

There are no small bowls my friend, just small minded people. Last year Charlie set the college football world on fire in the Hawaii Bowl, that some would erroneously call a toilet bowl, but it netted some nice things, like Manny Teo coming to Notre Dame, Jimmy Clausen's coming out passing party that set the stage for this year for him, and much needed R and R for the fine coaching staff. Charlie did break the bowl losing streak, why can't he get credit for that? also, at least Charlie is not recruiting criminals like Tennessee, which just had players arrested for robbing a Pilot with Pellet guns.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:38 am | #

Erik, I've also been trying to avoid those types of comments for fear of sounding like a sore loser; however, watching the game I was pretty pissed at several of the Navy players for not playing up to their reputation.

Not only the horrible cheap shot that probably should've gotten the Navy kid ejected, but the kid that forced Parris' fumble grabbing 82's facemask so hard he yanked his helmet off. That was a terrible missed call, and I especially hated it b/c the replay guys had to have seen that. And while theoretically they can't do anything about missed penalties, to me, that should factor in to not overturning the call on the field. It's already a judgement call, so use your judgement to not overstep your bounds. Not to mention that the play being blown dead looked like it was why Robbie didn't go for the ball, yet they still gave it to the Navy helmet-rippers.
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:45 am | #

Yes baIrish, I noticed that too! And not one comment from the commentators. First it took them about 10 replays to acknowledge that Parris didn't end up with the ball, but not one mention of the helmet coming off. ND (and a lot of teams) have lost a lot of helmets this year (more than usual it seems), but most haven't been ripped from the guy's head by the facemask like that one was.

On the topic of helmets and facemasks, I happened to catch the end of the movie "Necessary Roughness" the other day. It's the last play of the game, and some big linebacker guys is chasing the QB. The QB's enormous center comes around and knocks the guy on his ass. But here's the thing... he hit the LB so hard the front part of his facemask breaks off and goes flying offscreen. It happens so fast I had to rewind it a couple times. I don't know if they did that intentionally for the movie, but if so it's an incredible attenion to detail. If not, holy crap!
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:06 am | #

*guys = guy
*and it was the LB's facemask
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:08 am | #

Last year Charlie set the college football world on fire in the Hawaii Bowl

It is impossible to set the college football world "on fire" in the Hawaii Bowl. Especially when the win at that bowl gets you only your seventh of the season.
Ricky Runnin' Waters | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:09 am | #

How quickly y'all forget 2005/2006

figure a guy SHOULD bank some goodwill from a fanbase after 2 bcs games.

Does Ty Willingham get credit for the players on those 2005 and 2006 teams? Because he certainly gets most of the blame for the two crappy seasons that followed.
Ricky Runnin' Waters | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:11 am | #

Yeah, it's pretty tough to set the whole world on fire from Hawaii. I mean, come on - it's an island. Last I checked the Pacific isn't very flammable.

Hawaii's secondary sure was, though.

*ba-ziiing*
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:14 am | #

Weis' Dad I need your help, I have a bet going with friend. He doesn't believe that you can find a way to put positive spin on everything that happens involving Chuck. I say that you can.

Here's the hypothetical: We lose two of the next three games and end up with an invite to some bowl game worse than the toilet bowl.

Can you spin that to make Chuck look good?
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:15 am | #

Is the BGS staff just giving up on the Pittsburgh game? Clearly the coaching staff has as well with Corwin Brown still bitching about Navy. First class, Corwin, first fucking class.

I was all for ND winning out and CW hanging on until this Navy debacle. Does anyone realistically think ND is going to win out?
Mark | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:15 am | #

Mark, Not me, I think we we probably lose at least one and probably two more. I think Stanford is a loss, and Pitt is at best a maybe.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:22 am | #

Think Steve Spurrier might be able to do something with the talent on this team?
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:23 am | #

Keep trying to stick up for ND.. but then again I just received the bowl ticket application...

They may have to re-send... because they don't have any low tier bowls on it... but do include all the BCS plus the NC game...

what are they smoking...

Papajohns here we come..
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:27 am | #

btw, remember the days when this site was more than just a chat group..

are the bgs boys off looking for a new coach??
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:28 am | #

If there is a coaching change how badly will it affect recruit retention? Do you suppose that Jimmy, Golden, etc will leave early?
Whats a realistic W/L record for the possible new coach?
Cheers
Irish Canadian | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:43 am | #

Not That Tom:
You seriously think its only about better and better bowls? Winning consistently? National prominence? Beating SC?
It's just a game. Period. The reason that these kids are are at ND is to learn, get a degree, mature and oh yeah, play football. And hopefully go 8-4 every couple years.
Isn't that enough for you and all the rabid Charlie-haters?
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:57 am | #

My son will come back to ND next year if CW is his coach...

buy or sell??
jimmy's Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:09 pm | #

Weis needs to GO!!!
Dayne's Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:19 pm | #

Charlie needs to stay!
Weis' Son | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:23 pm | #

Weis' Dad Thank You.

And the next time I get a letter asking for money to help Irish sports I am sending in that post as my response. No need to spend money on what is, at best, the second most part of the experience.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:27 pm | #

Not That Tom:
That was a joke (the Weis' Dad response a few lines up). Couldn't help myself. Although Weis' Dad (the real one) probably would approve of my balderdash. Sadly.
Weis' Son | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:38 pm | #

So the Irish line up against Navy's O just like they did last year, and Navy foresees and exploits that, and the Navy coach, when asked, "How'd you guys do better than last year?" says so.

And Corwin Brown fumes that this isn't 'classy'.

I've got a suggestion. Shut up and get ready for the next game so perhaps your D won't be as embarrassed as it was against Navy.

You'll play Navy next year. You always do. When that game comes, go get 'em. For now, concentrate on beating Pittsburgh, instead of obsessing over the fact that the coach who beat you told people the truth about how he beat you.

Why must I be the voice of reason?
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 12:39 pm | #

Maybe Corwin can can Michigan's defense next year.

Michigan is all about "class". I hear some of their players attend class.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 1:18 pm | #

That should be "can coach"
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 1:18 pm | #

Hey, how about Lou Dobbs. Why?

1. He's available.

2. His name is Lou.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 1:49 pm | #

Oooooh, Navy's offense plays tough! They hit me! Oooooh. Illegal blocks! They knew how we were gonna scheme because I suck at coaching! Wahhhh!

Geez! Enough. If anyone needs firing it's those two weasels Brown and Tenuta. NOW.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 2:11 pm | #

Wow - really liked Corwin until his public pouting rampage. Agree with Joe Subway - shut up and get ready for Pitt. Yeah the Navy guy hitting Blanton was a cheap shot - not like we are angels, Harrison Smith takes 2-3 of cheap shots a game.

We lost to a good Navy team, get over it. We lost to a crappy Michigan team also. The way to get over a loss is to go get a big win. And if this week's theme is accountability then Charlie/Tenuta/Corwin better get their acts together.

Beating Pitt would be a big win - time you get one Charlie, you owe us.
OldFan | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 2:31 pm | #

I've had about all I can take of our coaching staff throwing our players under the bus.

Shut up and prepare for the next game. Maybe rather than watching the tape looking for excuses as to why your team looked to crappy against Navy, you could watch tape and figure out how to improve the team and pull victory from the jaws of defeat three more times this year.
Matt J. | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 2:36 pm | #

Yes! Yes! Yes! YES!

I hope there's enough leadership amongst the players themselves to undo that stuff. We've seen that leadership this year.

Whatever happens r.e. the H.C. win out!

Go Irish! F... up the Panthers! Win so all the gloaters can brood upon ND beating a top 10 team.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 3:04 pm | #

Now players are speaking out agst media in Charlie's defense...

http://www.fortwayne.com/apps/pb...PORTS/ 911120330

Honorable, but when does this happen unless it's a bleak situation....and shouldn't they be busy prepping for Pitt rather than rehashing Navy? Let us do the rehashing boys....collectively, we've got more free time, and less say over whether we win or not on Saturday.
GoldenStateDomer | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 3:11 pm | #

I just think ditching Weis who has called some amazing plays--I mean wow plays would be a mistake. I just do not see anyone on the horizon who I would gamble on, that is better running an offense.

They all know the deal at ND--so they too would want a big big contract.

This team can score but the problem has always been primarily on the OL and the entire defense. We really need top notch big name DC and D-backs coaches Tenuta and Brown should go.

Of course this is all just a mute point if team quits on Weis.

I have always thought Navy played dirtier ball than most other teams with the way they are allowed to block. I don't recall Ethan Johnson making one tackle in this game--just protecting his knees for the most part--who can blame him, after already having a prior leg problem that took a year to recuperate on.
john | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 3:19 pm | #

The players and coaches aren't calling up the media and saying these things. It's not like they go out of their way to hold a press conference so they can show their support of CW. These quotes are from the weekly Q&A in response to questions they get from the media. The media doesn't really care about the Pitt game because the big story right now is CW's job status. That's what sells copies. Charlie held his Tuesday presser with his Pitt preview and all he got were questions about Navy, his job status, etc.

Then all we get are the quotes out of context and think the team's not focused on beating Pitt, or that they shouldn't be talking about Navy still. They're just answering questions at their weekly press conferences.

Now, should the players and coaches say "I'm not answering any questions about Coach Weis' job status or Navy, I will only answer questions about the Pitt game"? Probably, but if you read the presser it looks like he tried and they kept pestering him.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 3:54 pm | #

Lou Dobbs couldn't be coach. He wasn't born in the USA.
Jim '72 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 3:56 pm | #

Lou Dobbs played Off. Tackle for his high school team in Idaho. The least ND could do is bring him in to help as an O-Line coach. I wonder if he's any kin to Ricky Dobbs? I'm going to guess not.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 4:08 pm | #

Erik, Corwin Brown brought up those comments about Navy before being asked any questions. How is that the media's fault?

He is so focused on last weeks game he has to bring it up before the questions are even asked.

Go Irish, keep it close.
Mark | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 4:13 pm | #

BGS really could use a new post soon about this coaching mess....or Pitt...or South Dining Hall's Lenten specials several months in advance. Anything really. People appear to have gotten a little stir crazy in here. I am afraid Chip and Weis' Dad may agree to a suidide pact after Weis gets the axe in a few weeks. I will miss the little buggers, kind of like our very own Baghdad Bobs.
Ghost of Corwin | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 4:15 pm | #

One good thing about this post being up is that I just got the double entendre of it. I'm a little slow. Had another post gone up, I never would have gotten it.

Good one, Jay!
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 4:25 pm | #

To all,
Pitt will not beat ND. ND just had a freak day. It is fun to watch them play and I am planning on doing so this weekend. In 2007 when our offense struggled,the defense played with heart and passion and made alot of key plays. Fast forward to 2009; the offense is fine but the defense is suspect. Why do we blitz that much? If we blitz at Pitt the defense is going to make us loose the game. If we don't blitz we win easy. Losing to Navy hurt bad but beating Pitt is going to feel really good. Go irish
Jean | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 4:38 pm | #

Finally found a video of that vicious chop that shouldve landed the navy kid the boot or suspension:

http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=W...player_embedded


as someone who has blown out a knee, that makes me want to vomit.
Sause | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 4:50 pm | #

I defend Corwin's comments. Coaches should never speak about their apparent superiority over another team-thats what got charlie in trouble with his schematic advantage crap.
Moreso than any other year I remember, the rankings from 3 down are totally subjective. Did anyone ever think Mississipi, or Iowa was 4? Does anyone think Pittsburgh is really 8? When we beat them, all the negative guys will say see, that proves they werent 8.
WE can play with anyone past the first 3. We would beat Iowa for sure. I think we'd lose to Oregon though.WE'd beat Cinncinati, but the point is that all of those teams could beat us too. Gone are the days of the routine victory of 44-0.
The Gator Bowl or Cotton are good bowls. I'd love to play Va Tech at Gator
I predict a big win this week. I only missed by 38 last week!
canuck 75 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:03 pm | #

Jean;
Missed your voice of reason on here. Glad to see you back. Yes, we should win, and win comfortably. It is fair to question why we have had so many struggles though. Hopefully the boys really do have Charlie's back and rise up this week and the next two.
canuck 75 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:10 pm | #

i got killed on here for saying this before the game, but here goes again:

love the navy kids, respect their commitment, but this is football and our only goal should be to beat them senseless in a legal way on the field. make them cry for their mommas.

i blame all of this on charlie; with all his navy ass kissing and running across the field for their alma mater and talking about them like these kids are play D1 football and fight in iraq at the same time.

play hard, play fair, but abuse these guys like any other team. no running around for their alma mater, no navy worship services the week before.

charlie emasculated this team.
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:10 pm | #

navy kid should have been thrown out for going for the legs on that late hit.
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:11 pm | #

couldn't agree more belocki -- on both of your posts immediately above.
Jake | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:18 pm | #

Canuck 75 - get a grip, lad. We can hardly play with anything approaching Top-50; we've come to 'elevate' an all-time bad Michigan team to good (a QB with 20 minutes of college experience destroys us). A lower-half USC team destroyed us in So. Bend; we prepared 6 months for a Nevada team, and looked good against them.
Nevada?

If anyone landed here from another planet, charged with putting one team on network TV, there are NO odds we'd be picked. Zilch. Nada.

We aren't relevant to ourselves anymore. We've allowed it to happen.
We glorify historical fodder teams like Pitt, and will (guaranteed) lose to them. UConn will out-heart us in our own stadium.

Get real, son.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:19 pm | #

From reading these comments it seems that lots of people are taking Weis' Dad at face value. I've been reading him as someone who is clearly anti-Charlie and making his point with parody.

The book that got Galileo called before the Inquisition was a defense of the idea that the Sun goes around the Earth (Dialog of the Great Earth Systems). After a while though the Church realized what was going on.
Nobody's dad | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:24 pm | #

You guys are whining no class losers.
notadomer | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:27 pm | #

A "guarantee" coming from a guy who won't sign his name. That's ironclad.
The Guys Get Shirts! | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 5:54 pm | #

That 'guarantee' is worth exactly what I paid to read it.
Go Irish!
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 6:04 pm | #

Jesus--I just saw that video of the Navy guy trying to end Blanton's career at ND and maybe the pros. Ref saw it but it was blatentley(sp) a hit that called for an ejection from the game.

Because it's Navy that would never happen--just reverse it and the ND guy would be forced to commit suicide.

Early days, WW11 days they always got away with that s--t. Leahy put an end to it by physically beating up the acadamies that no player for A or N could walk parade the following week.

I agree with other posts--forget honoring these clowns after the game--they certaintly don't deserve it and I don't care where the hell they go after graduating.

Bunch of cheap shot artists that deserve no respect.
john | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 6:16 pm | #

Here's a comment from the ESPN Weekend Overview page:

If the Panthers win out, they'll win the Big East title. The Irish need to win out and likely get some help to reach a BCS bowl.

Any guesses as to what "get some help" means in this instance? I think that the resident optimist penned that preview...
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 7:11 pm | #

in order to be eligible for a BCS we need minimum 9 wins AND be ranked in the top 14. I think by "help" the author means that we not only need to win out, we need the SEC and PAC10 to forfeit the rest of their seasons.

there is no way. A team that loses to Navy will not go to a BCS bowl.

Even if we qualified, I'm not sure i'd want us to go. I think we'd have a much better shot in the gator or cotton. This team is too inconsistent to have any confidence against top-flight competition.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 7:37 pm | #

Oh, you're so serious -- I was hoping for comedy! Try again. As for your analysis, Florence, I agree with everything except not wanting to go to a BCS game. Well, even that I agree with, but only because the Irish would probably draw the odd-team-out from the big two of the SEC. It's my opinion that the '05 and '06 ND teams ended up playing the best non-title game teams, but would have fared better against other BCS qualifiers. So too, I would not write off ND's chances against the winners of the ACC, Pac-Ten, Big East, or Big Ten this season. Even Texas is a tough read, as they've had a fairly soft schedule. Until I'm proven wrong, perhaps as within 48 hours or so, I believe that this Irish team can play up or down to within a TD of most anyone.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 7:47 pm | #

John

This team can score but the problem has always been primarily on the OL and the entire defense. We really need top notch big name DC and D-backs coaches Tenuta and Brown should go.

According to my calculations that would be 3/4 of the team except for special teams but ND special teams under Weis are not very special. Tenuta and Brown have nothing to do with the O line since that would be directly under the OC and HC. aka Weis.

Jim '72

Good one on Dobbs.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 7:50 pm | #

It's year 1 with Tenuta at DC and with a 4-3 defensive alignment.

I'd like to see some continuity.

My gut is that we had trouble recruiting DLine with the 3-4. Not alot of 18 year olds wanting to eat up blockers to make hero's out of LBers.

Verducci has done a good job with the Oline in year 1.

It would be nice to have some semblance of continuity in our program for once instead of a bunch of hyperbolic panic about how the sky is falling, and how much things were better 50 years ago.


Probably just wishful thinking on my part.
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 8:46 pm | #

How many times do we have to flush to get Weis out of the bowl?


P.S. We're tailgating at the Pitt Game. We'll be the ones drinking riot punch from a plastic jug. Stop by the tailgate.
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 8:56 pm | #

Folks its time to stop crying about Navy. We lost to NAVY, I don't care if they allow the Navy to play with 12 players on the field there is no way a properly coached ND team should ever lose to NAVY. So lets stop trying to make excuses for what happened.

Things are so bad that we are sitting around wondering if we can beat Pitt. I mean does any one want to make the argument that we are demonstrably better than last year? Thank goodness we still have UConn scheduled or we could be looking at going 6-6.

We keep posting that we have good players but need better assistant coaches, that is the same song many of you have been singing for the previous three years. Its time to come to grips with the fact that the problem is the head coach.

I am sure he is a nice guy that doesn't beat his kids or the dog. I bet he gives tons of money each year to a bunch of charities and spends countless hours counseling wayward teens. He might even best recruiter ever, but the man cannot manage talent.

If this was poker Chuck is the guy that draws four aces and a king and then folds because he doesn't know what to do with them.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 8:59 pm | #

@john

I definitely agree. The worst for me was after the Clausen hit and fumble.

Granted it was a huge momentum swing, but the Navy players, band, and students were going absolutely ape-shit while Clausen looked like he would need a stretcher to get off the field.

That's not something a classy team/band/student section does.
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 9:11 pm | #

Also I find it ironic that a comfy drubbing of Pitt started the Weis era.

Now, Saturday could end it.

[Or...just maybe...re-ignite it?]

Go Irish!
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 9:13 pm | #

So John, noone from ND has ever committed a personal foul? What a whiner! Get over the hit to Blanton and face the facts that ND lost to a better team this year in Navy. Regardless of the deserved penalty for that particular play, Navy is the least penalized team in the country. ND is consistently the most underachieving team in the country!!!! Lack of coaching leadership and consistent "Whining" are two key factors for this!
John is Lame... | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:33 pm | #

There's no reason to believe ND will beat Pitt. This is the best team the Irish will play all year and Pitt is going to slaughter the Irish.

Score 34-10.

Weis will be escorted to the NFL as an OC for the San Francisco 49ers.
Sterling James | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:37 pm | #

Weis will have the boys ready to give Pitt a good drubbing. Wandstedt does not have he brain power to compete with Charlie's superior intellectual instrument that is far above your standard pencil pushing coach. On the defensive side, Corwin has the boys in a lather ready to take out aggravations from this week on the Pathers. It won't be pretty. Girls, hold on to your boyfriends.

On another matter that I have thought about all day, think of this, When did modern Notre Dame start declining? When Holtz was forced to retire. After that, all downhill (Davie, Ty) and it took Charlie five tough years to right the ship. Why mess with the trajectory of the team and send it backwards again?

Get rid of Charlie, and this year's top recruiting class will disappear, the key skill players on offense (Jimmy C & Co.) will be gone. Is that what we all want? Three more years of rebuilding?

WAKE UP AND DON'T BE A LEMMING! Stick to principles, which is what Notre Dame is known for.

Why trade your soul for an Urban (half game suspension for Eye Gouger man?) or another mercenary. I've said enough. No, I've said too much. Thanks for bearing with me, friends.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:39 pm | #

Aaron B:
"gotta disagree about 8-4 being the best a Charlie team can do.
How quickly y'all forget 2005/2006"

He did have some goodwill for me from those BCS teams, until he lost to Navy for the 2nd time in 3 years. I honestly do not believe we can get back to the BCS with Charlie at the helm, and if we do, it'll be luck and the ND BRAND(tm) that get us there, and we'll be destroyed again while making money for the BCS.

"Losses are going to happen to every program. Florida,Usc,Texas and Boise St would go undefeated every year if that wasn't the case. So would the Colts, Celtics and Yankees. If constant perfection is your expectation the expect constant disappointment."

Nobody said perfection was the standard (the goal, yes...shouldn't it be?). However, losing to Navy isn't just "losses happening". Losing to USC, Pitt, Michigan when they are good...ok, fine. It happens. Lou only went undefeated once, after all. Urban Meyer's never done it. Everyone drops a game. Elite programs do not drop them to Navy. We are not elite. We have no excuses not to be.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:41 pm | #

"You seriously think its only about better and better bowls? Winning consistently? National prominence? Beating SC? It's just a game. Period. The reason that these kids are are at ND is to learn, get a degree, mature and oh yeah, play football. And hopefully go 8-4 every couple years.
Isn't that enough for you and all the rabid Charlie-haters?"

It's a game that the man is paid to coach, in order to WIN. I've been a Charlie defender for quite a long time; however, he simply has shown he has a ceiling, and we've reached it. Seriously, going 8-4 every couple of years is your goal? We really are turning into Northwestern and Stanford, if that's the case. I bet you cried when Malloy stepped down.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:45 pm | #

John: "I just think ditching Weis who has called some amazing plays--I mean wow plays would be a mistake. I just do not see anyone on the horizon who I would gamble on, that is better running an offense."

Your point proves he's an offensive coordinator. NOT a head coach. You don't keep a man who can only do half the job. Offense is great, but we need a head coach who pays attention to defense as well.

As for no other coaches being able to put together offenses....Brian Kelly's backup QB put up over 500 yards in the air last week...think Jimmy will do that against UCONN?
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 10:48 pm | #

I think the hits, 2nd hits, 3rd hits, 4th hits and on and on that Dobbs/Murray & Navy team collectively dished out to the ND defenders, not the mention the constant pounding that the Navy defense inflicted on the ND O really says it all.....Navy is WAAAYYY more physical than ND. F=MA boys....Navy pounded ND on the "A" not to mention the lower center of gravity.
GONAVY | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:00 pm | #

Further, let's face it....Navy clearly outschemed ND on every aspect of the game....out-coached, out-played, end-to-end execution....Navy dominated!!!
GONAVY | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:03 pm | #

Nate, Weis' Dad appears to be doing parody, he does it well.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:14 pm | #

Not that Tom: Yes, he does--I caught on later in the thread when he appeared as Weis's Son.

Great article up on Dr. Saturday from Chris Brown of Smart Football, re: Brian Kelly's offense.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/foo...maining- content
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.12.09 - 11:30 pm | #

Catholic Church threatens to cut off support (basic food and shelter) for DC homeless if the city council goes through with a proposal to extend benefits to same-sex couples. Of course, this latter issue has nothing to do with homelessness, but "the enlightened ones" are just spiteful that way.

Let's hear you people defend that.

I don't know what the story is with Catholicism is anymore, but serving the interests of God doesn't seem to be all that important anymore.

Disgusting.
Enough! | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:39 am | #

The way I see it, Jack-Swar only has two directions:
1) Keep CW and force him to fire dead weight - like last year, or
2) Get a proven HC & build a great staff.

If you were Jack-Swar, who would you force CW to fire?

I vote for Mendoza (marginal OL Str, little speed), Powlus (losing mojo), Polian (FG adventures = losses), Corwin (no DB ball skills, not looking for the ball), Tenuta (no tackling skills).

Option 3: Do you give CW an ultimatum to move to a grossly overpaid QB / WR / TE coach and let a real HC take the rest of the team?

How would y'all play it?
ThE LoSt BoY | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:48 am | #

Nate,

Urban Meyer was 12-0 at Utah in 2004. You are right that FU's BCS "NC" seasons were not undefeated.
ThE LoSt BoY | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:53 am | #

The Lost Boy, Why put so much effort into it? It has been obvious for some time that Chuck is not going to get better. Logic says that JC will go pro after this season, so this is the high water mark. Lets unload the guy and take a chance on someone else. I would rather go through two or three more failures than stay with the guy who has peaked.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 1:29 am | #

Enough!--you're name says it all. Enough already, man.

The Lost Boy--thanks for the correction, you're correct, of course. My point is that undefeated teams are rarely occur, but an elite team has the chance to go undefeated and/or compete for the title in most years. We were the very definition of elite, and all the excuses about why we can't be again are just that, excuses. Cincinatti doesn't get better talent, isn't in a warm weather environment, doesn't have any history...why should they be able to be #4 in the country, while we struggle with Navy? Because of coaching.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:08 am | #

GO NAVY; Get back into that Panama City "hump hump bar."
Disgusting; You're one pi$$ed off lib.
Nate; Looks like the CIC, giggles, always laugh when I think of a Clinton or 0bama as CIC. Never had a dust-up in their collective lives, and if they had, they'd swing a pocketbook. Back to the CIC, change of plans maybe, in the good/righteous war in Afghanistan. Brhahahaha, what a dickweed.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:24 am | #

GONAVY - you bring up a good point. After all the penetration that the Navy team got against the Irish, all those cadets should be dismissed for such a flagrant, public - national television no less! - violation of Don't Ask Don't Tell.

Maybe if their entire first string discharged, we'll have a chance to beat them next year.
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 4:26 am | #

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Notre Dame football: Panthers have eyes for Irish
By ALAN ROBINSON
Associated Press Writer

PITTSBURGH — The game against an unranked opponent falls right before No. 8 Pitt plays arch-rival West Virginia followed by perhaps the biggest of this season’s Big East showdowns — against No. 5 Cincinnati.

Winning probably won’t substantially boost the Panthers’ ranking. Losing might derail all the momentum they’ve spent a half-season building. It’s the kind of non-conference distraction many players and coaches dislike so late in a season.

Except for this: It’s Notre Dame and, for Pitt, that means it’s always a big game. Couldn’t be anything else.


“Notre Dame, that’s Rudy, they are college football,” linebacker Adam Gunn said, referring to one-time Irish walk-on player Rudy Ruettiger and the movie made about him.

Pitt (8-1) still remembers how another unranked Notre Dame team rolled into Heinz Field in 2005, ruined the nationally ranked Panthers’ opener by winning 42-21 and wrecked a promising season in which Pitt would finish 5-6.

No, it’s not a Big East Conference game, but yes, it’s a big game for Pitt, which is 19-44-1 in school history against Notre Dame.

“I’ve been ready for this game all year,” defensive lineman Gus Mustakas said. “They really put it to us my freshman year at Heinz Field. I can’t wait to get another shot at them. ... It doesn’t matter that this is a non-conference game for us, because it’s Notre Dame.

“Pitt and Notre Dame have great traditions, and when I got our schedule, this was a game that I circled.”

Older Pitt fans remember how the Fighting Irish, also unranked, upset Dan Marino’s previously undefeated senior season team in 1982 that had been ranked No. 1, starting the Panthers on a slide that led to three losses in five games.

Notre Dame (6-3) has long recruited in western Pennsylvania — a quarterback named Joe Montana was among those signees — and Pittsburgh radio station KQV has carried Fighting Irish games for more than 30 years. Some Pittsburgh sporting goods stores seemingly sell nothing but Pitt, Penn State and Notre Dame apparel.

“Yes, this is a big game, a statement game for us,” said quarterback Bill Stull, who missed Pitt’s 36-33, four-overtime win at Notre Dame last season with an injury. “It really doesn’t have anything to do with us in the Big East, but we definitely can get the spotlight on us if we play to the best of our ability and come out with the win.”

Nearly every Pitt player knows someone who plays at Notre Dame or was recruited by the Irish. Some were recruited by Notre Dame themselves. Pitt coach Dave Wannstedt went down the Irish depth chart this week, and was impressed by how many five-star recruits or potential first-round draft picks they have.

“I know firsthand, from recruiting here and at Southern Cal, that they can go into any state, any high school, anywhere, and they are going to be one of two or three schools recruiting a kid,” Wannstedt said. “Whether it’s California, New Jersey or Texas. There’s no other place in the country that can really do that.”

Notre Dame’s upset loss to Navy last weekend probably won’t help Pitt, as the Irish now have a season to salvage. Beating Pitt would help a lot; the Irish have lost their last seven games to Top 24 schools.

“It’s Notre Dame with (quarterback) Jimmy Clausen and all their great players coming to town,” Gunn said. “We have to be ready for everything that comes with playing Notre Dame.”
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:45 am | #

Am I the only one who thinks that this is "high noon" for Weis regarding his tenure here at Notre Dame?

We play Pitt this weekend and then Pitt plays Cincinatti two weeks from now.

Isn't that the whole ballgame right there? Won't the outcomes determine what will happen regarding our coaching situation for next year?

Who agrees/disagrees?
moe montana | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 7:25 am | #

Weis would probably save his job if he absolutely obliterated the last three opponents. He won't. If he does an excellent job, by his standards, we will win a close one...against UConn.

None of this should matter, just look at the track record. Even the resident polly at NDN has posted an article detailing the facts about the miserable failure this tenure has been. Its too shameful to repost here, but it is quite compelling. I feel sad, this may be the greatest accumulated talent ND has ever wasted and that is saying something.
Thundershaker | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 7:44 am | #

I don't think he has to obliterate anyone, but he has to win out.

Also, I can't imagine people clamoring for Brian Kelly if Notre Dame beats Pitt and Cincinatti loses.

A lot is at stake, but I think many of you just got ahead of yourselves after that shocking loss to Navy.
moe montana | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:09 am | #

Another thing, if we win against Pitt we're probably going to play in the Gator Bowl against Miami.

I don't know if that means anything, but I wanted to throw that out there.
moe montana | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:11 am | #

If we play the way Navy played us last weekend, we beat Pitt by 14.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:12 am | #

Just read Corwin Brown's comments, what a joke.

"“To say that we didn’t prepare well or we didn’t have a good game plan, that’s crazy. What I think is crazy is a lack of imagination for what they do.”"

Corwin...YOU LOST THE GAME TO NAVY!

Then he goes on to criticize their players for illegal blocks. I guess maybe we should have queried powerhouse Temple and asked how they dealt with that piece of adversity.

This program is in a free fall. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Thank God we're moving on from this crew. No doubt, it's going to be painful on the football front for the next couple (to few) years, but it's the right decision.
Ed Smithe | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:38 am | #

On a recruiting note, I heard that Brandon Linder, the very nice tackle out of Florida is going to verablize a committment today and he called Miami and Notre Dame yesterday. Most likley to tell one he's coming and the other that he liked their program, but he decided to go elsewhere.

- This could be straight BS though.
DuceFranko | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:42 am | #

The problem is those Naval Academy dudes are all cheaters. We should probably stop scheduling such a dishonorable school. Amirite?
Corwin Brown | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 9:23 am | #

moe:
don't mean to sound like a prick but where have you been all week? have you been reading this never-ending post? the articles at BGI, South bend Tribune, etc.? noticed Crowin's outburst? seen the vultures cicrcling?

it's totally high noon.
Charlie needs 2 outta 3 wins to save himself - even then its not for sure. my total guess is 9 out of 10 ND fans would agree.
oakvilleIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 9:28 am | #

Moe: Doesn't the Gator Bowl go to the ACC runner-up? Given the schedule and the unlikelihood that the BCS would take two teams from such a shit-tastic conference, we're looking at playing either Ga. Tech or Clemson (based on the remainder of the schedule to be played in the ACC).

Let's hope it's Clemson since we've seen how well ND's defense stands up to the triple option attack.
Matt J. | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 9:51 am | #

I have been civil towards her - "Enough" - all week, but enough is enough for Enough. We are trying to keep the comments here football related, not solving moral issues. There are other blogs for that.

Do not be a Bitter Bitty, babe.

I feel much better towards the future of the team and Charlie this morning. Things will turn up right!
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 9:54 am | #

Nate:

Almost totally football unrelated.

Do the forces over in Afghanistan have a chance to see/ play Notre Dame{college teams} vis a vis video gaming?

I suspect the EA sports edition of ND is less controversial than the real one.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 9:58 am | #

Please delete 'Enough's' posts. They have nothing to do with football. There are many other forums on the internet onto which he can vent what's left of his syphilitic mind.

I'm getting a good feeling about tomorrow night's game.

When ND really puts it together, they're tough to beat in a shootout. And the players know they're backs are up against it now. Could be a good combination.

Floyd made some mistakes last week, but he'd been off for awhile and he still made about 10 catches. Golden Tate remains one of the most dangerous weapons in college football. Jimmy Clausen is a machine of win who wants to make up for fumbling on the 1-yard line. Armondo Allen will be back if his ankle holds up. Nick Tausch has something to prove, and I think Theo Riddick is due to take a KO return to the house.

All this, and John Goodman can quarterback from the Wildcat. Okay, maybe that's not a huge factor.

It'd be great for them to go through a season without consecutive losses.

Much depends on the performances of the offensive line, and perhaps the D's ability to force turnovers.

As for Pitt, may they be gripped by doubt. Be afraid Panthers, be very afraid. May you experience 57 varieties of emotional loss at Heinz Field.

Does Pitt still have the kicker they had last year. That guy had an incredibly annoying beard, but he was ice.

Go ND go!
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:03 am | #

I think it is interesting that Pennsylvania has what are called "state related "schools. Pitt was private til '66.

It has autonomy, costs more than Penn State, but is state funded.

I'd be interested to hear how that played with Pitt fans,{alums} particularly those that went there in the 60s. Was the change of status welcome or not?

Who do they hate more WVU or Penn State.

Why don't Pitt and Penn State schedule each other{ I suspect PSU.}

Be interesting to hear from any Pitt fans on these topics.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:12 am | #

Joe Subway

You have to assume that ENOUGH! has shall we say "personal contacts" .

Syphillis may not be an issue.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:15 am | #

High noon for Weis should have been a long time ago. As it is, he needs to win out, not just beat Pitt. Even if he beats Pitt, he will likely lose to Stanford and/or Uconn. That would accord nicely with his history of losing to less talented teams. He got a mulligan in 2007 for TW's crappy recruiting and another mulligan for a crappy 2008 year. He will have at least 3 losses this year, two of them to teams far less talented than Notre Dame (how bad is MI, by the way? A far worse loss than the one to Navy for sure). Enough is enough. A loss to Pitt may put the sellout streak in jeopardy when ND plays Uconn, which will likely spur action.
ndfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:23 am | #

Charlie is having a tough year and I can understand some of the people's frustration with him. But, remember, he is one heck of a coach. Just a few years ago Charlie was the winner of the Eddie Robinson Coach of the Year Award, as national college coach of the year as selected by the Football Writers Association of America.

He also was one of three finalists for the `05 Munger Award, one of five finalists for the '05 Schutt Division I-A Sports Coach of the Year (presented by American Football Monthly) and finished THIRD in the balloting for the AP college football coach-of-the-year award.

Why run off such a talent? Coaches of the Year are not available every day. Patience is a virtue we should all strive to better attain.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:47 am | #

ok. that last comment by Weis' dad wasn't a joke from me.
even i couldn't come up with nonsensensical parody like that. very impressive.
Weis' dad - please reveal who you are?
Weis' Son | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:51 am | #

I said that he has to "win out," but you're missing the point I was making.

The name most often mentioned to replace Weis is Brian Kelly and Kelly's Cincinatti will play that same Pitt that we're playing tomorrow night. My point is that we have the opportunity to compare the styles/effectiveness of both coaches before the season ends.

Therefore, Weis has everything riding on tomorrow. If he loses, which is a real possibility given that Pitt is a TOP TEN TEAM and Weis has never beaten a top ten team (not to mention that we're playing in Pittsburg), Weis probably won't survive. If he loses and Brian Kelly wins his game, Weis is toast and Kelly will probably coach the Irish next year.

I don't think there is any way ND will fire Weis if he is 9-3 and just take a chance on some nobody. Unlike what some of you think, ND is not willing to flush away the next two or three football seasons because people are upset we lost to Navy.

But I will say this, the next coach who takes over will at least have the benefit of taking over a STACKED program. This might be like when Lou Holtz took over for Faust. Faust was a great recruiter, but was in WAY OVER HIS HEAD as a coach. Lou came in, took Faust's players, and won us a national championship.

Dare we dream?

I don't think we should be looking for a coach to rebuild the program (then winning in a couple of years), I think we need a coach who will take the players we have AND WIN NOW!

As for why I haven't been around all week, abortion/political threads aren't very appealling to me and that's more or less what this degenerated into for a couple of days there. I'm glad, notwithstanding jim's irrational hatred of Barack Obama and Enough! hating everything Catholic, we've returned to talking about football.

I think most of you will agree that this was a rough week to be an Irish fan. Maybe it just brought out the worst in some people.
moe montana | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:57 am | #

Does Moe Montana get some kind of BGS prize for being the 600th comment?


See this discection of the ND defense by from The Bird Dog, a Navy site. Ouch.

http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:00 am | #

John: I agree that the hit on blanton was extremely dirty, but to say it could've ended his NFL career? Are you that blinded? Robert blanton has single-handedly cost us three games this season. His coverage errors against usc and navy are so blatantly obvious that i don't know how he's still even on a practice squad.

John is a loser: Go back to the hole you crawled out of. That was more than a personal foul. No one is using it as an excuse. It was just a supremely dirty play.
Sause | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:02 am | #

W Son, I am obviously not Weis' real dad, but someone who thinks Charlie is getting the raw end of the deal from everybody - fans, and media alike.

Only the team is rallying around Charlie.

The Irish players have attempted to show solidarity this week in the aftermath of public player criticism of the defensive schemes run against the Midshipmen. As a consequence, starting nose tackle Ian Williams will not start at Pittsburgh and it is unclear whether he will play in the game.

If the players are backing Coach Weis, why can't the rest of us?
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:05 am | #

QQ: I read on NDN that Ian Williams won't start against Pitt. Any truth to this? My fear is that retaliation against players that speak their mind is typically an indicator of team issues.

Maybe what we see as lack of emotion in the players is really a team lost. We know we have great individual contributors, the puzzle is why we have such mediocre results.
OldFan | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:11 am | #