I bought season tickets for Pitt football in 2005 so I could see the Irish play their first game under Charlie. Pitt scored first on a TD pass and the place was rocking. The Irish locked so good for the rest of the game, I remember saying out loud to my Spartan wife, we're never going to lose to a crappy team again.
Chris | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:54 am | #

Just a quick comment on recruiting. Most of the calls for CW to stay are that recruiting this year would suffer. Outside of Teo, who was a 5 star, top flight recruit? We had quite a few 4 star guys, but it was not like when we brought in Floyd, Clausen, etc. the last few years. From my review of the recruits for next year, all are 3 and 4 star guys. We do not yet have any 5 star, top of the boards recruits lined up. There is no reason a new coach could not start with what we have, whittle a few away, and get a few 5 star guys in. Even if we lost a few this year and did not get any 5 star recruits, then we are likely in the same spot when our best recruit was Aldridge.

Just a thought.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:57 am | #

We don't stand a chance in this game. Our run defense is terrible, our D-line can't hold th point of attack, two of the three LBs are terrible tacklers, and the secondary can't figure out who to cover and when to cover them. Not to mention that Pitt has a D-line that is as good or better than USC's, which gave both of our tackles problems. I don't want to sound like a pessimistic negative jerkwad, but I just don't see ND winning this game with the coaching staff that we have and the severe lack of fundamentals that permeates the team.
WyoMike | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:06 pm | #

This game should mean nothing for Charlie's future...there should be none. Whatever happens over the next three weeks, it does not change the fact that no real progress has been made by this coach.

That is why I am scared. What happens if ND rolls by 4 td's? I have never and will never hope this team loses, but it concerns me that people are still debating the HC's job status.
RedMahoney | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:09 pm | #

Red, do not be scared. WE ARE Fighting Irish - remember. Under stress while others pick 'flight', we pick the "FIGHT' alternative. The team is at a fever pitch and tomorrow all be right again in the Notre Dame college football world.
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:16 pm | #

If Weis is fired, I think it definitely hurts short term recruiting. Chris Martin (five star defensive end verbal commit) is definitely gone, and ND loses any shot at the other five stars still on the table (Seantrel, Prater).

The next three games will decide it. And if they lose at Pitt, I think it's probably over. I just worry whether anyone else we bring in will do better. Margin for error is razor thin.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:16 pm | #

Wow. It is really shocking and humbling to go back and read the old posts. We were all so high on CW back then.

I don't even want to know what was said after the bushpush game, when his stock was at an all-time high.

what the hell happened?
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:23 pm | #

At this point, I don't care about recruits. Even if Weis stays, most of those 5-star guys aren't a sure thing.

There are plenty of coaches who do more with less than Weis. So losing out on 5 star players shouldn't hurt them, as they've had success without 5 star players before.

Much as I hated the saying, a former boss's mantra was "Potential is interesting, Performance is everything"

-Domer96
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:35 pm | #

WyoMike,
You say we do not stand a chance because of personnel but then you say we will not win because of the coaching staff? Which is it lack of personnel or the coaching staff? For once I would love to see these guys come out and play 60 minutes of inspired football. I would love to see them feed off of each other the offense rolling from a good defensive stand and vice versa. 60 minutes of inspired hard-nosed football. I think that is my biggest complaint about Weis, his teams play with no emotion. Holtz's teams had a business llike attitude but they played with emotion. Get emotional....take care of business.
DB12 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:42 pm | #

Weis' Dad "WE ARE NOTRE DAME"? Hell, we aren't even NAVY anymore.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:45 pm | #

I posted this over at the end of the last comment section before noticing a new BGS post was up, but I highly recommend the Navy "Birddog" link cited earlier if you want to see how badly we were out-coached last game. http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/

It's a long post but it explains, with video analysis, how Navy used an ineligible receiver formation (undetected by ND for three quarters) to fool us on two of their three TDs. Explains why Blanton was on another planet on the TD pass. Explains, but does not excuse.
Mike81 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:50 pm | #

Now, on abortion.....just kidding....

I hold eternal optimism that the IRISH will show up as fired up as they have ever been and play their hearts out....

The question is will it be enough... If they have any pride and/or love for CW as they express... they should "shock" the world and take this game.

Outside of Navy, this team has shown incredible fight and determination all year... hope they don't cash it in now...

Go Irish.. beat the stache......
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:52 pm | #

Its not about the heart of the player's, they have been doing their best. Its about the coaching that doesn't make it work correctly/
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 12:56 pm | #

I wanna see ND move beyond the Weis era beginning in 3 weeks (enough is enough) and losing tmrw night is the surest way to get there. The odds look long in this match-up. But even though it doesn't make sense, I know when I get set up on front of the big screen tmrw night, I'll be rooting for the boys in blue 'n gold.
Go Irish!
OakvilleIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 1:28 pm | #

DB12,
I think the personnel is there, but the coaching to help them make plays is not. We have a lot of talent on defense, and I'm sure that most or all of them were good sure tacklers in HS, or else they would not have been so highly touted, but the fundamental football of the team (blocking and tackling) is very poor. That is coaching, not talent. Just look at Navy's DBs and LBs. Not the fastest guys or the biggest, but they kept everything in front of them, and were great tacklers in the open field, which is what they have been coached to do. I have a hard time remembering our RBs bouncing off their players and getting extra yards, but their RBs had a ton of extra yards after contact. Blocking and tackling are not sound on this team, and that is on the coaching staff.
WyoMike | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 1:30 pm | #

"If you look at the two coaches, and set the frame from 2005 onwards, it's pretty tough to find anything resembling progress on Charlie's side of the ledger."

Come on, Jay. You are better than that. If you look at 2007 as rock bottom for the Irish, a ton of progress has been made. While the Navy loss hurt, this season is not over yet, and the best is yet to come... hopefully.
Domer97 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 1:45 pm | #

Domer97, sorry if that last paragraph is unclear, but I was really talking about the comparison between Wanny & Charlie from 2005 to today. Perhaps "anything resembling progress" is too imprecise. I'll see if I can rework it. I think your criticism is well-taken.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 1:55 pm | #

I like the new wording Jay. A little more neutral/objective, I think.

Come on, Irish... make me believe again!
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:02 pm | #

I feel so horrible for saying this, but I don't even care about the outcome of this game. It's as if we were in the tourney and when we lost to Navy, the season ended.

Anyone else feeling this way?
me | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:03 pm | #

We will kill Pitt.
indy | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:07 pm | #

what happened? charlie has his own well known deficiencies, but his has done nothing with his D. nothing. its pathetic.

if has a D ranked in the top 30, he has one loss this year and would of not had the mess the last few yrs.

this is a crazy game, if the kid tips the ball in the SC game, all of this ma be different from 5 yrs ago. 4th down and he misses it by a finger tip. 1/4 of an inch and this whole deal changes

crazy!
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:07 pm | #

me,
I understand what you are saying. The Navy loss felt to me like a major ending - our BCS chances, any heisman possibilities, and CW's time at ND. I really did not want any of those things to end. I wanted CW to do well. I wanted Jimmy or Golden to win the heisman. I wanted to finally win a BCS bowl. Instead, today, I am still stuck in the numb/shock place where I will watch the game, I will cheer for the Irish, but, emotionally, I might be done this season. Especially adding the lame-duck nature of our coach into the mix.
mark | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:10 pm | #

Totally indy, if by "kill Pitt" you mean we will have them rolling on the turf laughing at our attempts to tackle and block.

The thing is, Weis could win this game but lose to a team like Indiana or Minnesota the next. Actually, Uconn might do the trick nicely. But realistically, I think the team will come out with some emotion, may a ton of emotion, but it won't be enough. It would have been enough to overcome the bad coaching against Navy, but not this week.
Ghost of Corwin | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:21 pm | #

Who cares about trophies?! I just want to see a team play with consistency and conviction.

For all the talk about, "we don't know who we are," all season long, I think we do. We're the team that lost to Navy - a listless, uninspired football team with no grasp of fundamentals that wakes up with three minutes left in the game and tries to win it.

That's not football. That's just sad.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:22 pm | #

Tomorrow is a tough came to call. Line up the players and despite the difference in ranking you expect a hard-fought win. But everything the Weis tenure has taught us says differently.

Optimistic Obediah:

ND comes out strong and leads at the half. Wannstedt out-adjusts Weis at the half and ND comes out flat on offense allowing Pitt to regain the lead. Last minute heroics on ND's part cause a few heart attacks, but fall short.

Pessimistic Obediah:

ND comes out flat. Injuries and another promising season slipping away - sealed by Navy at home renders our offense impotent. Defense plays uncharacteristically tough the first half, but after being on the field too much Pitt has a monster second half.

Wildly Optimistic Obediah:

For the first time under Weis, everyone healthy in our offense shows up ready to play for four quarters and we hang 50 on Pitt. Defense bends, but makes key plays to hold Pitt to a few FGs giving ND a comfortable 35-6 halftime lead.

How bad is it that in 59 games, Weis has never lived up to wild optimism. One win against USC, a win in either of the 05/06 bowls and a win against NC last year and I'd feel a lot better even with the horrible losses.
obediah | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:23 pm | #

We are going to skin panther tomorrow like Davy Crockett. We're going to whip the buggies out of those Yoders. We're going to box that stache like Loni Anderson. And I'm going to win fifty bucks when the Smails kid picks his nose.
indy | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:28 pm | #

You over there... Pick up that blood.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:34 pm | #

We'll have to wait and see what shakes loose from these next 3 games, but this season has been a 'nad buster...so close, you can almost taste a 9-0 record, but then again the shortcomings look so far away from being handled....messes with the mind.
Nicholas Eddie | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 2:43 pm | #

So let me get this straight. Weinstadt has virtually the same record as Weis (slightly worse). He did not inherit a program that was down to 60 scholarship players with virtually no recruits for a two year period, and yet Stache is a better coach?

Am I also correct that Pitt/ND went to 3 overtimes last year and whereas Pitt lost their two biggest playmakers of a year ago and ND has the exact same team, but now we are going to get blown out.

I will tell you what is going to happen so you guys can prepare your anti-Weis diatribes. ND will win on Saturday night, but it will be a relatively close game but everyone will bitch because we could have won by 21 but we gave up some sort of fluke touchdown to make it close.

Then Pittsburgh whose best win was a three pointer against UConn will proceed to lose their last two games against WVU and Cincinnati and immediately a game that was a big deal when we played it will end up being nothing but a win against an 8-4 Big East team.

Just wanted to go ahead and put it out there so that everyone can practice up on what ever BS statistic suggests that Weis can't coach.

Unrelated, I read something on ESPN by Pat Forde who listed all the reasons Weis should be fired. When did national columnists start openly commenting on the hiring practices of a private institution?
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:08 pm | #

We're going to lose to Pitt and win the rest of our games. People are going to defend Weis for going to 8-4 and still having job security issues, and he's ultimately going to hold his job for another year. No one will want to pay the buyout on his 10 year contract when he hasn't proven himself truly awful yet.

And for another year, I will draw out a long sigh of disappointment. We could be so much better. We haven't beaten USC since I was a student at ND ('02-'06). Sigh.
ORAlum | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:11 pm | #

I think Weis is the coach, and his staff had major issues against Navy... but let's face it.. this team and it's primadonna's didn't show up..

Brian Smith not tackling a soul, Blanton blown coverage, H Smith pf, off line blocking, Clausen fumble, Floyd hit in the back with a pass.. it is not all coaching...

Think these guys tend to drink the kool aid whenever they get a little success (ie NFL and Heisman chatter) and don't know how to handle. Players didn't show up for Navy.. they got outplayed and "outschemed"

If they have any pride and any desire for CW to come back, they will blow Pitt away...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:16 pm | #

On a semi-related note, don't you love how the so called experts say that Jimmy lost the heisman in the navy game. How can the national media be so stupid?It must be a prerequisite to not watch the games.
I don't care about the heisman, and if it is for the most spectacular player I would vote for Golden, but it irritates me to read such drivel. Of course, he may well "win "it back on Saturday.
I think we win soundly.Do any of you speculate whether Charlie would actually say to the boys,"guys, there isn't much doubt my job hangs in the balance today, so if you want me back, play your asses off!"
canuck 75 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:22 pm | #

Nicholas,
The shortcomings of the season rests on one man Charile. I like the way he recruits and he really does understand what ND is about. However, I'm not sure he can inspire his team like Lou Holtz did. Lou is a great motivator, positive thinker and one of the best coaches ND has ever had.

I too will not abandon ND football, but emotionally I am tired of poor results against teams we should be clearly dominating. I will watch the games, but with the onset of another gator bowl, it might be time for CW to either step aside and let someone else take this team to the promise land.

ND 37- Pitt 34
NOEL | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:24 pm | #

Canuck,

Jimmy was never going to win the Heisman. No matter how great he plays, no ND player will win the Heisman ever again. Because of the proliferation of football on TV, the guys who run the highlights shows are capable of determining how each game will be presented. When you have billion of dollars invested in one conference, you are not going to tout anyone outside that conference. That is why Tebow is still "in the running" even though he has been exposed as the fullback he is behind a suspect offensive line. Same thing with the running back at Alabama. Jimmy is awesome in spite of his O-line giving up 2 sacks a game with little running game to support him.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:29 pm | #

I understand the CW bashing....

but he made Quinn, Samardizja, and especially Tate.. among others.. I say these 3 because they would be nowhere without Weis...

Quinn was ready to be run out of town after a horrific soph season, Shark was 3rd on the depth chart, and Tate was running fly patterns as a freshman because he had never run a route before.....

where are these guys... any word on stepping up to support him??

I think this game will show what this team thinks of CW... lay an egg like Navy.. and clearly they aren't behind him...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:29 pm | #

Wyo, I saw Navy miss a bunch of tackles. Riddick made people miss almost every time he touched the ball (Goodman too on his runback). And their corners whiffed on those out patterns several times. I don't believe Brian Smith or Harrison Smith ever were fundamentally sound players. They probably got by on their athleticism.

It wasn't fundamentals but poor red zone execution that caught up to Notre Dame. They beat themselves.

Worst Losses in the Weis Era
Syracuse '08
USC '08
LSU (though they were playing like the best team in the country by the end of the year. I had no recollection we had the game tied at 14 in the second quarter)
Michigan '09 (Looking worse and worse in retrospect. Though we probably caught them at their best, before their lack of depth caught up to them. The refs were no help either)
Michigan ('06)

Best Victories
Michigan '05
Michigan State '06
Pitt '05
Hawaii (Sad, But they dominated them.)
Pitt '09 ?

Let's hope so.
Spiro Agnew | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:33 pm | #

JMC;
Actually I think Jimmy and Golden did a pretty nice job stepping up this week. I was actually one of the guys slow to warm to Jimmy, but it's sure nice to be wrong. He is pretty solid. and not to reopen a debate, but I stand by my thought that his character will bring him back next year. We'll make a commercial...beating SC-priceless.
canuck 75 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:35 pm | #

Mike81,Thanks that was a great blog.Explains everything
irishjh2 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:37 pm | #

PLAYERS are the reflection of their COACH.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:46 pm | #

me,

I don't feel that way because only a coward gives up before the outcome has been decided.

Are you admitting that you are a coward?
moe montana | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:52 pm | #

To all,

All of these negativities are not good for our team. That is probably why we had a freak game this past weekend. What ever happened to believing you can win at all odds? It starts with us,believing in our players and coaches. I am going to do my part this weekend. Go Irish beat Pitt
Jean | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 3:53 pm | #

Jean, Sorry but no. It is fine to believe in the unseen but it is folly to continue belief in that which has been proven to be false. It was not a freak game last week it was another manifestation of the coaches complete lack of ability. We were unprepared to play and it showed itself with sloppy play and bad defense.

I am willing to praise our players that deserve credit but I am not heaping false praise, or expending any more effort in defending, a coaching staff that does its job so poorly week in and week out.

I would love for the Irish to beat Pitt and the best way to do that more often in the future is to get a new HC and staff as soon as possible.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 4:04 pm | #

I believe we can win.

I believe we will win.

I believe Notre Dame has too many fairweather fans. We have learned from these fans that not only will we lose one, two or maybe all three of our final games, but we're also losing our top recruits, and Jimmy Clausen and Golden Tate will enter the draft earl.

In related news...

Chicken Little: THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING.

I agree with the poster above who said that no matter what happens the peanut gallery here, and elsewhere, will continue to bash the team they allegedly support.
moe montana | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 4:07 pm | #

moe:
gimme a break. me was expressing a pretty fair point of view, considering how the season's gone. one, i think, shared by many, myself included. we want the Irish to win, hope they do. but it's hard to get too charged up.
does that make me/us cowards? i guess if that makes heroes like you feel better.
OakvilleIrish | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 4:08 pm | #

Yes!

I am very excited to have tix to see Bob Dylan Saturday night!!

(hint hint Jack Swarbrick)
Jimmy Two-Times | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 4:39 pm | #

I started reading through the comments and got depressed.I read through more of the comments and got frustrted with the bickering. How about this approach?

1) Let's be optimistic (I thought that's what ND fans were known for?)

2) Let's cheer on the Irish and ENJOY the game (that's what the game is played for.)

3) Let's support Charlie (he's our coach, a former Alum, and one of us!We should be pulling for him instead of breaking him down.)

For all of you pessimists - don't forget who is coaching on the other side. I had to endure the Wanstache years for the Bears and no win is a sure win for him.

WE are ND (including Charlie and the players and the fans)

Go Irish - Beat Pitt!!!
rbingham'97 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 4:40 pm | #

We know. All week long we have heard the same thing over and over again. We know there are lots of fans who want Weis gone.

How about we pause the day before a "big-game" and cheer for the team we are fans of. Aren't there enough haters of ND that we don't need the actual fans to beat us over the head all week long? Some of us actually enjoy watching the Irish and while frustrated by the losses, don't feel the need to constantly harp on every negative thing we can think of.

Being optimistic and seeing the good things in life generally translates to a more enjoyable life than one spent nit-picking and bitching about the same thing over and over again. Weis will either be here next year or not and nothing we say is going to change that. Get over the Navy loss and get fired up for what will certainly be the end of Pittsburgh's season.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:03 pm | #

Thanks, Jay. I now understand what you are getting at, and I agree.
Domer97 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:06 pm | #

Well one thing is for sure, we have managed to become the Harvard of the Mid-West. We have great academics and a lousy football team. I guess we should be happy.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:09 pm | #

Pitt will be a tell-tale game: I predict the fall of the house of charlie. Quoth the fan-base: "Nevermore."
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:18 pm | #

So what are the chances of:
Jimmy Clausen
Golden Tate
Michael Floyd
going Pro?
I have:
JC 50% (85% if new coach)
GT 90%
MF 30% (can he go Pro after his 2nd year?)
danirish | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:34 pm | #

I think JC is less dependent on the HC than he is on what he hears about the labor situation and his possible draft position. It can't help our chances of having him stay when so many QBs that were so hot last year as juniors are hurting there NFL chances this year.

Given what is going on with the labor agreement, from solely a money standpoint he would be a fool not to jump if he finishes the year looking strong and ready for the pros.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:46 pm | #

Tom,

So now we have a lousy football team?

What's wrong with building a football program that we haven't had here in 20 years?

Have a little vision and quit being such a cocksucker in every comment.

Fans like you are exactly why we've been more bad than good for 30 years. Get you're pound of flesh following another program.
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:47 pm | #

Exactly Michael. I am not trying to defend this team - god knows they've taken precious things from me, and I have a right to be bitter about it - but we're bigger men than that. I'm turning my face toward the sun and looking forward to seeing our boys go out and ruin something other than a lovely fall afternoon - I'm looking forward to seeing them pull down and destroy the pitiful dreams of the hapless co-eds of Pittsburgh academy. My time for happiness is past. Now is the time to be a genius of misfortune to others; to carry disorder and destruction to the hearths of our opponents - to shame them with defeat at the hands of the incompetent, and half-hearted, and over proud. To ride on without hope, and strike.
indy | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:48 pm | #

I look back over our 2009 games and see incredible excitement in every one of them. ND had everyone glued to their sets or seats--even non fans.

I like it when we get so far ahead that I can just relax and not have high bp--but dammit these have been exciting nail biting games--no matter the winner.

I can't remember a coach or qb that continually brought us back in so many games.

How many other teams would the viewer stay tuned to with 1 minute, 50 seconds etc--knowing that the Irish could still pull it off.

I know, I know, most will say we shouldn't have been in that position but just take a minute to reflect on how exciting all of these games have been. This is college football at it's best--I don't think you'll see in a generation a qb like Clausen again.

Just ask yourself-need to score in 50 seconds who better than Weis and JC
john | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:48 pm | #

We owe Pitt big time for last year, that alone gives me some hope that we can win. But we have to play a complete game for the first time this season to do it... and I mean absolutely flawless.

Remember how happy we were about Tyrone and then Charlie in their first years? I just hope the next guy, I assume Charlie is done now, maintains that excitement a little bit longer (like 8-10 years at least).

Go Irish, Beat Pitt!
wkurtz94 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:49 pm | #

When was the last time ND had a 6th year player . . .
atepesm | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:54 pm | #

Michael - I share your fear of a Pitt exposure. It's bad if we beat Pitt in a close game and Pitt then loses out. It would rob Weiss of a meaningful win, and create another debate as Weis supporters trumpet the big win over #8 Pitt in 2009 ( think the "signature win" over Michigan in 2005, but worse ).

It really isn't fair to penalize Weis for Pitt's future games, but this is a grown up game. ND must beat Pitt, and Pitt must finish a top 25 team (top 20 or even 15 would be great)
obediah | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 5:57 pm | #

aaronb So having lost the argument on facts you resort to name calling? The previous two years have been terrible and Charlie has shown no coaching ability this season, The team has talent but shows the ability to play below their level in nearly every game. I blame the coaches for that and the way you change that is to change the coach.

You showed yourself to be a real class act with your name calling. We aren't building a team we are floating through the season with this coaching staff.

I would love for the team to win out this season and go to a decent bowl, but this team has given me no reason to think they can do so, and the coaching staff is where I place the blame.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:01 pm | #

I feel a throttling of pitt in the air.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:01 pm | #

When teams lose out after we beat them, rather than exposing them, I prefer to think of it as breaking them.
indy | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:04 pm | #

Indy. I concur but alas the spin will be they were bad in the first place. I. E. See Michigan 2005 as noted above.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:17 pm | #

Not sure what "facts" you are alluding to Tom,

Better to clean house and praise the next guy if we go 9-3 next year.

At some point a coach is going to need enough time to build a program.

Instead we as a fanbase want to burn everyone at the stake every other year like this is Salem.

It's possible that Charlie isn't the guy to lead us to a NC.

But it's more likely that

A) He hasn't really been given a fair shot considering what he walked into

B) There has been more behind the scenes that prevents him to being Alabama or Florida that the ESPN and ND Blogger talking heads refuse to acknowledge

If someone proves they aren't worthy of the job. I'm all for replacing them. However It makes me sick when people root against us just to prove their own points. And unfortunately that is where we're at.
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:24 pm | #

All,

Why is Notre Dame stealing my boyfriend??
jess | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:28 pm | #

Ha ha ! Indy, well done.
stewvee | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:41 pm | #

I honestly can not believe that so many Notre Dame fans still have puppy dog eyes for Charlie. In the end, I guess we get what we deserve. If you want to wallow in mediocrity then search no further. You've found it.
shawn | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:47 pm | #

aaronb I am not one of those calling for us to fail in order to replace Chuck. I want us to win and I want us to be satisfied with nothing less than consistency at a high level. 10-2 and 9-3 are good marks for us to reach.

My gut tells me that we are going to lose at least one more, not because I want us to but because of how we have played up until now.

I think we should replace Chuck regardless of his record, I don't think he has what it takes to be a good head coach. he is great with the offense, a great recruiter, but he is lousy at pulling it all together and keeping the team focused.

We lost this year to teams we should have beat and we didn't beat a single team that was better than we were.

Am I bad for the program? How would I know? i know that more than a couple of schools have managed over the last few years to find coaches that have made their teams perform at levels they have never seen before with talent levels lower than ours and recruiting classes judged to be inferior to ours.

Look at one of our perennial foes, USC. No one thought they were hiring a great coach when USC made that move, but it worked for them. Why can't we do the same thing? Why can't we ditch the boat anchor we have for a Head Coach and take a shot at improving?

Because in all honesty I have yet to see this team during Chucks career pull off the unexpected win. Sure they have been close a few times but they haven't got it done with Chuck running the show.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 6:54 pm | #

I'll be at the game with my fellow poster, and brother, Brad.

We'll get half-cocked on riot punch and cheering for Notre Dame.

As much as this game SHOULD be a blow out loss for ND and the end to Weis's career, I have a feeling ND will continue its tendency to PLAY TO THE OPPONENTS talent level, as we have nearly every single game of the year, be it USC, or Navy.

I just hope no one changes their mind on Weis' worthlessness if ND keeps it close or eeks out a squeaker.
daybreakboys | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 7:09 pm | #

and yes I know "WE ARE ND" but Weis is a cocky @$$hole.

Just cause he's a Domer doesn't make him Jesus.

If he was a cocky prick and WON, like Urban Meyer, it wouldn't be so bad. But how can you be mediocre (on a good day) and still be cocky?

It doesn't work that way.
daybreakboys | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 7:14 pm | #

Floyd cannot go pro until after next year, his third. Its a rule.

I was one of those Weis apologists until after the Navy game. We can talk about him walking into a bad situation and not having recruits but its year five. There is no one left from the Willingham years. Fifth year seniors might have been recruited by Willingham but these are Weis's players. And I'm concerned that player improvement is because of pure athletic ability rather than coaching. The fundementals continue to appear to be weak and that is coaching. Its frustrating to watch other schools play with underclassmen and out-perform our Irish.
ND Alum | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 7:22 pm | #

I was actually a Weis supporter and still am to some extent. The problem I have with Weis is that he is supposed to be a HEAD coach. He acts more like an Offensive Coordinator. I like our offense and think it generally performs well as compared to other college teams but the D and special teams are a disaster and Weis has no apparent ability to step in and help right the ship. I think it important that a head coach have that ability to some degree...
St G | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:07 pm | #

I suspect the team may play well tomorrow as they close ranks around the coach. Charlie's biggest flaw is the emphasis of individual effort over team play. Never worry, a win tomorrow will only mean losses to Stanford and U Conn.
valpodoc | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:27 pm | #

Mark May is right!

Pitt will beat ND by 4 touchdowns (at least). They have a great line, great freshman running back, two tall receivers, a pretty good D, they beat Navy and they are playing at home. Wann will win coach of the year.

6-6 like last year. Buh-bye CW.

I wonder if Cincy could beat Navy? Or Boise? Or TCU?
Sterling James | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:28 pm | #

Well to all the WEIS haters. YOU will get your big ranked win this weekend. LETS WIN BIG. IN WEIS WE TRUST LIKE IT OR NOT!!!
StadiumDudeNamedChip | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:51 pm | #

I can any of you been NotreDame Fans and want them to lose?? NO real fan in there right mind would ever want there team to lose. The LADY on THE DOME SHAMES YOU ALL.
StadiumDudeNamedChip | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 8:57 pm | #

As one who often has to "explain" what is going on under the dome to my co-workers, I wanted to share one epiphany I had this week in discussing the latest travesties.

It has been well documented (in my humble opinion) that one reason for CW's successes in 05 and 06 were that while the previous coach left the cupboard bare, he and his assistants did know how to teach and coach fundamentals. When those fundamentals-laden kids titrated out, all the schemes in the world couldn't make a difference. If you don't tackle or block, it's tough to win any game. (Contrasting to teams like Navy which have mid level talent but high level fundamentals and as a result can do some pretty good things.)

If CW leaves after this year, the opposite situation is going to be in place. That is, high talent level, low to mid level fundamentals. How long does it take for fundamentals to take hold on a group of talented kids?

Anyone ever read Lou Somogyi at BGI? He's often written about the 3-year rule for determining long term success of a coach. I think therein lies the answer to the above question. How low does it take? Ask Lou Holtz - took three years to take Fausts kids, talented all, and learn 'em up with fundamentals and a winning attitude.

This is essentially the same situation there, now that I think outloud about it. Faust knew how to coach HS talent, but never had to develop it any further. Couldn't figure it out in 5 years at the next level. Lou comes in, and by end of year 1 it was clear something had taken hold (the 5-6 record notwithstanding). By end of year 2, he had a Heisman winner and all arrows pointed north. By end of year 3, ... well, we all know how that ended.

Not saying there's another Lou out there to be had (again I hate the "then who" argument because that's just avoiding the problem because the solution is too tough to figure out), but if there is someone who can teach fundamentals to the talented kids we have, oh the places they'll go.
IndyEsq | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 9:00 pm | #

I mean HOW. LOL typed mad sorry
StadiumDudeNamedChip | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 9:03 pm | #

there is a 5* and 4* out there courteous of Tennessee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=c...player_embedded
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 9:05 pm | #

Longtime lurker, but I had to check in to say Pitt and the Pendulum is the best title ever. Especially since it fits the topic of the post. Kudos!
Paul | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 9:52 pm | #

anybody else feel that we were a nastier team in 2005? what ever happened to that?
sdirish | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:04 pm | #

Lou S, has been typing and mailing in that same POS for 30 years.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:26 pm | #

AaronB: "So now we have a lousy football team?"

You would not call a team that loses to Navy "lousy"?

For heaven's sake, people--expressing a negative expectation does not make one less of a "fan". Believing Pitt will beat us by 2 TD's does not mean that is what you want. Personally, I think if form holds, we'll beat Pitt in a tight game, only to lose next week to UCONN. Is that what I WANT to happen? Of course not. Sadly, the two things I want are probably incompatible: I want ND to win out in convincing fashion and win their bowl game, and then pat Charlie on the back on his way out the door to make room for Brian Kelly. If we win out, Charlie will undoubtedly stay. If we don't, he won't. One should never "hope" the team loses, but I have to believe that if we do, it wil result in a better team in the future. Anyone who rails against the "haters" and blindly defends Charlie is just as bad as anyone who doesn't acknowledge the good he'd done for the team and that we are better off than we were 5 and 3 years ago.

My question: For all the "MUST BLINDLY SUPPORT TEAM WITHOUT QUESTION!!!!!111!!" guys like StadiumDude, what do you do if they do can Charlie and we have a new coach next year? You going to support the team then, or is your support more for Charlie and less for the team?
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:28 pm | #

Charlie is a massive waste of time and money.

He's done NOTHING to advance Notre Dame's program in 5 entire years. NoT a SINGLE signature win in 5 years.

Charlie Weis has lost to NAVY 2 times in 5 years. Something no Notre Dame coach has done in...I don't even know...ever?

He's all talk and no walk.

I hope to God ND beats Pitt. I will be there, driving 5 hours and spending hundreds of dollars to cheer for my team that I am now separated from by 500+ miles and I am lucky to see once every 3 or 4 years.

Even if we somehow beat Pitt, which would be the greatest fluke of Weis' career, i hope they fire Weis.

My fear is not that we will lose this game. I hope we win. But my fear is we win Weis' one single win against a "legit" team, who is not as good as their rank. We win the game and keep a losing coach.

5 years is long enough. We've made up for the O'Leary mess. We've made up for the Willingham mess. 5 years is enough time for ND's purgatory.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

SPEND THE MONEY AND MAKE THE PROMISES TO A COACH THAT WILL BRING THE GREATEST AMERICAN SPORTS TRADITION BACK FROM THE DUSTBIN AND BACK INTO GLORY.
DaybreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:50 pm | #

I care more about what happens between Cincy & WVU-- and which outcome gives us a better chance at landing Brian Kelly?

One would think that if Cincy gets knocked out of BCS contention, then he (who should be our next hc) might be more inclined to think about the soon-to-be-open gig in South Bend...

Thoughts?
ND in LA | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:56 pm | #

We are going to skin panther tomorrow like Davy Crockett. We're going to whip the buggies out of those Yoders. We're going to box that stache like Loni Anderson. And I'm going to win fifty bucks when the Smails kid picks his nose.

This comment is brimming with win. I'm totally stealing that Loni Anderson joke. Tip o' the tam-o-shanter to you, indy.
The Guys Get Shirts! | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 10:57 pm | #

anon:

We've lost 3 games by a total of 13 points. Naturally I think the sky is falling and we need to nuke the program.

From 3 to 7 to 8-10 wins is progress to most people.

It might not be fast enough for the "Ghost of Ara" folks. However the hurdles facing this current regime where stiffer than any previous coaching regime.

I guess I just don't understand why the outcry to fire Charlie "Today" has come from?

He has stocked the shelves with young talent that pundits said couldn't be brought to ND. It only seems fair to let the guy reap the rewards of his labor.

Instead I hear people wishing for a guy to come in, bring a gimmick offense, and try to win with lesser recruits going forward. I just don't see how that is a recipe for long term success?

Charlie is getting offensive recruits because he is running a pro-style offense and guys are willing to come to South Bend in route to NFL riches. Brian Kelly brings yet another gimmick spread offense that won't bring NFL calibur recruits. It's a fact.

Tenuta has brought his 4-3 this year because you can recruit D Line with a 4-3. Unfortunately it takes time to develop D line recruits.

If you look at things with an objective understanding of what is really going on. It isn't that hard to see.

If you look at it from ESPN headlines and hyperbolic non-realism. Then you end up with 7 head coaches in 32 years.
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:02 pm | #

aaronb,


Why dont you flip that stat around and look at the truth?

ND has WON 3 HALF our games by a total of 8 points....and another in overtime.


You this this is impressive?
DaybreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:15 pm | #

RedMahoney, I haven't read the other 84 comments because I couldn't get past yours at #2. Someone else probably already said this, but if we roll Pitt by 4 TDs tomorrow and win out, as you suggest, you don't think finishing this year at 9-3 would be progress? What if we then win our bowl game? 10-3 with a 2-year bowl win streak isn't progress over the last 15 years since we'd won a single bowl at all? I'm not saying it's going to happen, but if we roll Pitt by 4 TDs, win out, and win the bowl game, that's definitely progress.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:17 pm | #

Wish i could type.

*You THINK this is impressive?*
DaybreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:17 pm | #

If we roll Pitt by 4 TDs I'll eat the hat that I wear to the game.
DaybreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:18 pm | #

Non-realism?

It doesn't get any more real than losing to Navy... wait for it... TWICE.

When something happens 43 times in a row... and then the opposite happens 2 out of 3, the game has changed.

Think about the slot machine that pays out two jackpots in a short amount of time... And what did DeNiro do in Casino? He shut down the machine and fired the guy responsible.

Swarbrick needs to step up, become Bobby D, aka Ace Rothstein, and make the change-- as the eye in the sky is watching us all.
ND in LA | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:22 pm | #

Fundamentals, discipline and attitude are reflective of the coaching staff. If ND players are blase about playing Navy at home, that is because their coaches were also. If ND players cannot block or tackle, they have not been taught in practice or drilled these fundamental things. And if they get dumbass penalties like personal fouls, their discipline is lacking, reflective on the coaches. We have the talent, no question, but we do not have the coaching to maximize that talent. CW is a great play caller and QB coach; he is a horrible head coach. It is time to move on, because he will not change. He even admitted as much last Sunday. He is still a good man, a family man, an ND man, and I respect him for that. But he only does his job right 58 percent of the time. That's just not good enough for me. It is time to move on.
WyoMike | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:25 pm | #

Lou lost to Air Force. Navy today is Air Force of the 80's and 90's.

Am I happy we lost to Navy? NO

Do I think it instantly cancels out all the good that's happened to the program since 2004? NO

Building a program while adhering to the Strict standards of ND takes longer than some would like. It's not excuses.... It's simply the truth.

I am proud that ND is stringent in the ways they field their football program. I don't want it compromised.

Would hate to see what is a very solid foundation laid, go to waste simply because some people who don't realize what is going on, don't have patience. I only hope that Jackie Swa is a guy who does understand? I've seen enough chasing our tails to jump back into that game.
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:30 pm | #

"Building a program while adhering to the Strict standards of ND takes longer than some would like. It's not excuses.... It's simply the truth."



Didnt for Holtz, aaronb.

Still waiting for you to name one signature win in 5 years! :)
DaybreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:37 pm | #

"Brian Kelly brings yet another gimmick spread offense that won't bring NFL calibur recruits. It's a fact."

Yes. Just like the NFL caliber recruits turned and fled when Urban Meyer brought his gimmick spread from Utah to Gainesville.

The Weis apologists are really getting desperate. Weis is a great success. Nobody but Weis could succeed here. Blah. Blah.

Just pitiful.
Dome Sweet Dome | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:38 pm | #

It isn't about being an apologist.

Ultimately we all want the same thing. I'm just asking people to look a little deeper that Colin Cowherd or Pat Forde.

If we lose out then Weis should probably go. If we end up with 9 wins, then I think he deserves another year.

Fact is, Charlie has brought NFL level talents to South Bend. With that is a higher ceiling program that that of a coach that "Coaches up 2 and 3 star recruits"

Florida recruiting the spread and ND recruiting the spread are not the same thing. Florida and California kids will come to ND to play pro set ball and hopefully play in the NFL.
If we think Jimmy Clausen or Mike Floyd are coming to South Bend to block for the triple option. Then you are mistaken.

Stay the course. Growing pains do suck. However they happen when you always have upheaval in a program. 9-4 or 10-3 signifies this is moving in the right direction.
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.13.09 - 11:52 pm | #

Okay, this debate is getting silly and can't move forward without facts.

For the "Fire Charlie" group:

What would it take for you to change your mind and give Charlie one more chance? What can the team show you over the next 4 games (3 + Bowl) that would make you reconsider? Winning 2 of the next 3? 3 wins plus a bowl win? Dominance across the board?

For the "Charlie needs more time" group:

What would it take over the next 4 games for you change your mind and feel it's time to move on from Charlie? 1 loss? 2 losses? being blownout by UCONN?


For me, I think, I've reached the point where anything short of 3 dominating wins and a good bowl victory won't convince me to keep Chuck. My major problem is that we can't put away the teams we should, and never beat a team we shouldn't. Beat Pitt (team we shouldn't, supposedly), beat UCONN big, and beat Stanford big, then win a bowl game, and I'll see some progress that may help me overlook losing to Navy.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:06 am | #

aaronb Name one significant improvement you have seen in the quality of coaching this year compared to others. Because I don't see it I see a team that often plays below its ability and tends to be less than attentive in the second and third quarters.

If the talent and experience level of the players has improved we should see a more solid effort on the field. What has improved is JC's ability to run the offense. Remember the USC game? Compare how much time the USC QB had compared to the fractions of a second JC got from our OL. So I see little improvement in our line play and that should have occurred by now with five years of solid coaching. Same for the D-line.

Now I put that all on Chuck because he is ultimately responsible for player development. When we can't get the most out of what we have that is on the HC as well.

I agree with the posters that say our current players look like they are poorly coached in the fundamentals. And I am tired of giving Chuck a pass on this.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:10 am | #

Nate,

I'd say 3-1 or better including the Bowl game.

Charlie has shown the willingness to adapt. So hopefully we see a refocus on fundamentals over the summer. The talent is finally in place. Next year will be all Charlie. From 5th year seniors down to the Frosh.

If we don't look improved next year, then a change will be in order. I just don't think that order is here yet.

(folding like a lawnchair starting tomorrow nullifies this statement)
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:13 am | #

Tom,

I think the Oline is much better this year than in years past. Verducci has proven to be better than Latina

The running backs as a group have been better. Allen has taken a huge step forward. Hughes has shown flashes. Theo Riddick looks like he could be the best of the bunch. If he carries more last week I firmly believe we win that Navy game.

The D-line has looked better. Especially since Fleming/Neal/Filer have been on the Ends and KLM/Johnson/Ian Williams have played the Tackles. Ideally these moves are made sooner. However late is better than never.



I would like to see a refocus on fundamentals next summer. Hopefully the lessons have been learned?
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:18 am | #

AaronB: Just want to clarify, since you're one of the bigger Weis defenders these days--you expect 3-1 including the Bowl Game, and you'll keep your current opinion? So if we lose more than 2 games, you'll change direction and look for a switch at HC? Just want to nail it down.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:19 am | #

What would it take to get ND to turn down an extension the the NBC contract?
stephen | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:22 am | #

Nate for me its no longer about the wins and losses. If we win out and still look like we did against Navy I would still want to fire Chuck. If we play flawless and still lose three more games I would be willing to say that Chuck has moved the team forward with real progress.

I just don't think either is going to happen, we are who we are this season and we are likely to lose two of the remaining four games. (We are bowl eligible and there is no way we will decline a bowl game in this day and age.)

I just don't think Weis can instill the fundamentals and consistency at this late a date. We will play sloppy with flashes of the spectacular, just like we have since Chuck took over.

And aaronb its about five years too late for Chuck to start focusing on the fundamentals, just saying.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:30 am | #

NotthatTom:

See, for me, it now IS about wins and losses. Navy made it so. I was always the "if we play well and show improvement, then I can evaluate that, separate from losing." But you know what? It's not true. You don't outweigh a team by 50 lbs on the line and lose even though you "played well". For me to regain faith, the TEAM has to play a solid game of football for 60 minutes, multiplied by 4 games. That doesn't mean Jimmy, Golden, Armando, and Michael have great games and we win 48-45; The defense has to show up too, and play well, and not miss tackles, and not be horribly out of position. I'm not saying I expect 48-0, either, but 48-45 shows me NO progress. Of course, my position varies depending on the team we play: if Pitt is a legit top 15 team and makes great plays on offense (in other words, if our best defensive players are someone other than "dropped pass"), but we pull out a hard-fought 48-45 win? Okay, I can handle that. But if we're simply in a track meet with no form of defense played? I'm not going to look at that as "progress".

And to preempt the "but the defense isn't Charlie's fault" lines from people: Yes, it is. He is the HEAD COACH. TEAM = Offense + Defense + Special Teams. HE chose Tenuta. HE chose Brown. HE pays the penalty if they don't cut it.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:42 am | #

Sorry, lost track of my point--if we LOSE 45-48 on a last second play, we still lost. We obviously didn't play well enough. No one on our remaining schedule, PITT included, has the talent we have. Lose, and you can only point to coaching.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:45 am | #

Tom,

Surely you are saying that Charlie is incapable of focusing on fundamentals?

Charlie isn't going to be the guy lining up in a 3 point stance showing proper technique.

Tom Landry wasn't that guy either.

Ultimately it will fall on the position coaches. Charlie will just have to find the practice time to fit it in.

However with a veteran team returning next year. I think he could spend a bit less on scheme, and a bit more on fundamentals and be OK.

As far as records going forward. 3-1 should be enough. However it will depend on how we play. If we lose on a last second play to a USC or LSU in a bowl game, showing that we belong then you would have to take that into account.

More realistically is that any coaching decision will need to be made after the Stanford game. If for no other reason than recruiting.
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:46 am | #

i actually remember charlie's first called play from scrimmage. i thought "my god, notre dame has hit the golden mother lode"

'lo how the mighty have fallen!

the whole saga is really sad.

man proposes, god disposes... :(
brian custer | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:53 am | #

aaronb I realize that its not Weis out there teaching the three point stance, I doubt he could get in one, but then again neither Joe Pa. But Weis has to take, and we must put, the responsibility for making sure the fundamentals are both taught and applied. We can't keep giving Chuck credit for all the good if we don't make him responsible for the bad.

For whatever reason ND appears to be incapable of executing the fundamentals consistently. So I blame Chuck, its his program.

But here is why I think we should fire him, regardless of what happens next: At the end of last year I was ready to fire him because I was sure that this season would go just about the way it has.

I knew given our schedule we had a real shot at being 10-2 with one of those loses being against SC. But I also knew that somehow we would manage to end up 8-4 and in a third tier bowl game. I knew that we would lose focus on a regular basis and the team would play more than a couple lackluster games.

So yes I see another regular season loss coming our way and perhaps two. I would rather they won out while looking sharp but I don't think that will happen and I blame the coaching, specifically the head guy for being incapable of controlling the entire program.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 1:12 am | #

"Ultimately it will fall on the position coaches. Charlie will just have to find the practice time to fit it in."

Is Charlie not responsible for the selection of position coaches? He has to be held accountable for his hires. You cannot say "but it's not his fault, it's the fault of the position coaches". He hires them. If they are not teaching fundamentals, it's because he didn't hire the guys who would.

"However with a veteran team returning next year. I think he could spend a bit less on scheme, and a bit more on fundamentals and be OK."

This is backwards, and has been Charlie's problem all along. With a veteran team, the fundamentals should ALREADY be there, and you can focus on scheme. It's an inexperienced team that needs fundamentals taught. Because Charlie and his coaches have not taught them up to this point is why we are talented but inconsistent.

"More realistically is that any coaching decision will need to be made after the Stanford game. If for no other reason than recruiting."

But the legwork needs to be done now to get the potential next coach in place, or we'll be in the same situation we were when we lost out on Meyer and settled for Charlie.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 1:16 am | #

Nate, honestly, I think you have made the most thoughtful statement yet.

A win against Pitt, a BIG WIN (comfortable at least) against UCONN, a win against Stanford (this is not a bad team and we are playing away, a BIG WIN may be asking too much), and a win in a bowl game.

If this happens Weis WIN NEVER BE FIRED. To believe he will be is just plain dumb.
moe montana | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 3:35 am | #

WIN should be WILL.

Sorry.
moe montana | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 3:36 am | #

Moe: I agree, if that happens, Weis will not be fired, regardless of whether he should be or not. But he will only buy himself one more year, because he's not going to get away with making no changes on D and losing next year to Navy, barely winning games against lesser opponents, and ending up right back were we are now. Simply won't cut it.

We can debate endlessly about what we think should happen--I can say that even with 4 wins, we still aren't a "good" team and I don't think we'll improve to BCS/NC quality. Doesn't matter--I'm not the one pulling the trigger, and don't have the pressure on me to justify firing a 10-3 coach, even if it's obvious he's lucky to be there. But I'd be sitting Charlie down (again) and telling him he needs to start destroying the teams we need to destroy, needs to wake up and smell how badly the defense reeks, and that this tip-toeing through a mediocre schedule to just get by with wins does not cut it.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 6:02 am | #

It's hard to fathom the prospect of accepting a record of 8-4 or 9-3 to end this year. While we had hopes and dreams of being a BCS contender at the beginning of the year, it seems like we/some are making excuses to keep Charlie around.

With the talent that exists on this team, the fluff schedule; there is no rationale for Charlie to be the HC in January of 2010. Recruiting has improved, but that is only a single aspect of what Charlie is responsible for. If you look at this as a business, the PRODUCT that has been put on the field has been terrible. Charlie may be a good coach, but he is not a good Head Coach. He may ot have the capacity to do everything that is required in his job description to ensure that the product that gets put on the field translates into victories.

Regardless of how the season finishes, I believe Swarbrick needs to bite the bullet and give Charlie his walking papers. Charlie just doesn't have what it takes to coach these kids up to being a true BCS contender. Whatever the cost, (Blame White, not Swarbrick) a new staff is needed in South Bend. There is just something missing from what Charlie has to offer. Keeping him around will not help him develop that skill.

He may be a great guy.
He may love this university with all of his heart.
He may have the best interest of the university at heart.
He may be great during his press conferences.
He may say all of the right things.
His players may love him.

But, he is not doing his job.

Would you keep someone around who is not doing their job?

I'm hoping Swarbrick won't.
Bubba Du Lac | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:49 am | #

On my way to the game, fellas. Win or lose, this will hopefully be a turning point in ND football.




Go Irish.
DaybreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:50 am | #

What would it take for you to change your mind and give Charlie one more chance? What can the team show you over the next 4 games (3 + Bowl) that would make you reconsider? Winning 2 of the next 3? 3 wins plus a bowl win? Dominance across the board?

For me, it would have to be big dominating wins across the board. I am pretty much in the Not that Tom and Nate camp. However, with CW's track record, I don't see that happening. he has never had a good D since he has been at ND. I don't see how he can possibly do a complete turn around in one week. He has had 3 DCs since he has been here and a new O line coach this year. I just don't see greatness. I see dabs of greatness on O but it is not consistent. Cw has had more blowout losses than ANY other ND coach. I have also seen Kuharich's teams and his were the worst. CW's teams seem like a mirror image of Ty's teams. When he was going 8-0 the first year, I always had an uneasy spot in mny stomach because I was always asking myself "When is the bottom going to fall out of this thing?" Maybe one reason CW was so popular when he first arrived is because ND was starved for offensive action. CW provided the fireworks and it is much more fun to see a good O than the great D Ty had his first year. Ty sucked at O. CW sucks at D. CW has not taught fundamentals during the 2007 and 20008 season. Why would he start now.

The SBT has an article about Herb Kirkstreit. Herb said that ND's problem is lack of good speedy players like from the SE, SW and West US. I disagree. Navy is in the NE and beats ND. I think Lemming said the most damning thing. He said that the only one from Navy who coulc make ND's 2 deep is their fullback and yet Navy beat ND.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 8:03 am | #

"No, Joey, Shane's not coming back and neither will Leahy or Ara."
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 8:04 am | #

Want a nonsensical yet entertaining read behind the "urban myth" that ol' ball coach Meyer will come to South Bend? Follow the link to SI:

http:// ncaafootball.fanhouse.com...kusspor00000002
Tate4Tat | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 9:14 am | #

Go Irish!
Tate4Tat | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 9:14 am | #

go irish! beat pitt!
wearing out my F key | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 9:27 am | #

"It's hard to fathom the prospect of accepting a record of 8-4 or 9-3 to end this year. While we had hopes and dreams of being a BCS contender at the beginning of the year, it seems like we/some are making excuses to keep Charlie around."

Actually, I expected 9-3, and would have been fine with 8-4, if it demonstrated progress. An example:

Close Loss to Michigan on shoddy reffing (check)

Close loss to USC, didn't get dominated (check)

Close Loss to Top 10 Pittsburgh team (we'll see...)

Close Loss in upper level non-BCS bowl game to the #2 Big 12, ACC #2, etc.

So, essentially what I'm saying is that we were on track for my expectations, and I'd have accepted a loss to Pittsburgh--the kicker for me was NAVY. I was apprehensive before that, because even our wins were skin of the teeth, a bounce could have gone either way type affairs. Sure, Lou lost to Air Force and Stanford, but those were notable because they were the EXCEPTION. Bottom line, the only consistent thing under Charlie is inconsistency.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 9:58 am | #

Ed Smith is a loser.
Bob Devaney | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 10:03 am | #

Ugh. I just moved to Oklahoma and they are showing Texas Tech v. Oklahoma State tonight on ABC. Anybody have a recommendation on how I can watch the game tonight?
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 10:32 am | #

A thank you to Jean, many comments ago, for her (? Unless it's the French spelling for John) reminder that a desire to win against the odds--rather than calculating those odds in a spirit of negativity--is part of what it means to be a fan. CW is still our coach, and he deserves our support until the day he is replaced, whenever that may be.

A thank you to aaronb for making the case for supporting him. True, there are no signature wins and he was indeed head coach for the worst season in ND's history. On the other hand, it does seem to be the case that he learns from his mistakes, which is evident from the continued improvement since 2007 (which I will be the first to say is not in the least as quick or convincing as I would like). Is this learning from mistakes of the "whack-a-mole" type? It's possible. But I think it's worth being patient a little longer to find out, given things like the constant changes on defense. It seems to me that the more time the administration gives to Charlie to do his best to succeed, the more likely it will be to attract a quality replacement in the future when the time comes.

Finally, a thank you to indy for being hilarious. And educational.
DCS | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 10:54 am | #

How about all you Weis Haters just shut up cheer for you team love ur team.
Weis will take us where we all want to go. Push him out and get ready for a long time of being down.
Just look back in time after lou left in 1996 it took us till 2002 to get back in the top five then weis had us in the top five in 06 and in the top 10 in o5 when this year is done after the bowl look back and say its no that bad.
2005 9-3 BCS
2006 10-3 BCS
2007 3-9
2008 7-6
2009 10-3
So cheer for the IRISH that I know every one of us love. IN WEIS WE TRUST LIKE IT OR NOT. Oh The BCS game is still not out of reach. Win out and we still might get in.
StadiumDudeNamedChip | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 11:04 am | #

WEIS WILL BE BACK
StadiumDudeNamedChip | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 11:05 am | #

Over/Under -- Dion Lewis rushes for 150 tonight, what say you?

With all the talk about position coaches, I have to give Charlie credit for the Tony Alford hire. That sure seems to have paid off.
Broom | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 11:34 am | #

Bob,

No, I'm not the loser...I'm the realist. It's our team that ends up losing games that they should win because they are consistently outcoached and outschemed.

I'm neither a Weis hater or supporter.
I'm a loyal ND fan. And I've been right about my analysis, past, present, and future.

Folks like you on the other hand have been wrong year, after year, after year. First it was a need to change coaches. Weis did that...didn't work. Then it was more physical practices. Weis kinda did that...didn't work. It was guys like you that were jumping up and down last January after we destroyed a terrible Hawaii team...That, you claimed, was proof positive that this program was moving in the right direction. Last week, if you don't mind me reminding you...WE LOST TO NAVY.

Either bring some analysis to this or keep your mouth shut. It does no good to attack people like me just because in your heart of hearts you believe that Charlie Weis will one day succeed. If you're content with a mediocre program, then be a man and say it...that's fine in my book. I just happen to have a different opinion and a different want for this program. Doesn't mean I think we should be in the hunt every year, but when I have to settle for us getting beat, I'd like it to be because of a bad break rather than the ego and incompetence of some jerk.

If that's what makes me a loser so be it. Although I fail to see how folks like you are winners given the statistical summary of your preferred path for this program.
Ed Smithe | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 11:52 am | #

Having said all that, it really doesn't matter what either of us thinks. Weis is out and someone new will head this team. So stop living in the past and let's pray that they pick the right guy.

Go Irish!
Ed Smithe | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 11:57 am | #

I thought before the season that Weis needed nine wins (nine reg season or 8 reg season plus bowl win) to keep his job. I stick by that. We are the underdog in this game for good reason - Pitt has been very good this season and they're at home, while we have a defense that fails to make stops at critical times. I don't expect any miracles tonight, but if we lose tonight and lose at Stanford or home to UConn or flop in a bowl game, there wouldn't be enough progress and it would be time to move on. This was never a BCS team based on our defense and I think it's delusional to expect them to jump from 7-6 to 11-1.

I really want Charlie Weis to succeed. The national media has a field day calling him smug or making fun of his weight, but I think he's a genuinely great guy. I still get choked up thinking about Pass Right or when my friend's dad was dying of cancer and Charlie invited him watch the game from the sidelines a couple years ago. He needs to take that next step, but I don't believe it absolutely must be tonight.
Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 12:12 pm | #

Tom, I agree with you. ND needs to decide what it wants in a coach. An ND guy like CW who works hard and cares about ND and all of its challenges or a football coach who might do a tad better than CW.
Sterling James | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 1:10 pm | #

At the beginning of this season, I looked at the schedule and thought they had the talent to go 11-1 and add another "shit happens" game, so my cutoff was 10-2. I am sure Swarbrick does not care about my opinion. After watching the games, ND could easily be 9-0 at this point if they even had a mediocre defense and would be one of the best teams in the country with a top 20 D as Tenuta has done at virtually every other place. Minter was supposed to be good also. The only constant in this equation is Weis and that is why I think he should go.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 1:37 pm | #

Reading those archives made me sick to my stomach. It's enough to cause a well-meaning Irish fan to wonder whehter it's just not ever meant to be again. From those great heights to this suffocating mediocrity. Progress that is not.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 2:01 pm | #

The most difficult aspect of the game tonight for ND fans may be listening to ABC hack, Brent Pukeberger and his sidekick, revel incessantly about CW and the state of the ND football program.
lush | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 2:53 pm | #

Go Notre Dame!
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 3:05 pm | #

Forget the ad hominem attack stuff and keep it positive!
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 3:06 pm | #

Anon - I'm in Dallas. Same boat in that I'll be forced to watch Okie State vs someone of no interest to me.

I did find the game on PPV but it's running $135.00 plus taxes and fees.

ESPN 360 will running it too.
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 3:06 pm | #

Trying to get ABC to show "Charlie Brown's Feng Shui Dilemma" but -ugh- looks like we get our pants pulled down on national TV ....again!

While Wanny gets to look like the second coming of Knute, I was wondering (during the GT-Duke game) why we always pass on their (GT's) type of coach.

Tech has none of our built in advantages. On top of that, they have brutal academic restrictions. And they are a legit BCS, Top-10 program.

Just a thought, and one that will be pondered and pondered and pondered over and over a few hours from now.

Pitt 38

ND 10
CW is rope-a-doping CFB | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 3:57 pm | #

Pitt 42
ND 21
24hour | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 5:17 pm | #

Jim Harbaugh's Torero's, oops, Tree, leading U$C 21-7 at half-time.
Imagine that guy coaching 10 years + at little San Diego Univ. So much for the enlightened AD's etc.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 5:18 pm | #

PS. Betcha ten bucks $10 Amerikan there is NO sellout at the Coliseum.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 5:19 pm | #

I want Notre Dame to return to glory so we all get along again *sniff, sniff, sniff*

Pitt - 41
ND - 17
danirish | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 5:45 pm | #

ND 37

Pitt 24
Tate4Tat | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 6:15 pm | #

Stanford is DISMANTLING USC at the Coliseum, 42-21 midway 4thQ.

No doubt Stanford has some fine athletes - Gerhart and Luck stand out on offense - but they have even higher academic standards for their athletes than we do.

So - with recruits with fewer "stars" than ours - they dominate Oregon and USC.

What, I wonder, is the difference between Stanford and us? They also hired a coach with no HC experience, a guy with some success in the pros - and in THREE YEARS with higher academic standards, a tough enough schedule in a good conference - they are getting signature wins over those big university teams, with great offense and strong, smart defense.

So now let me hear about "progress" and "improvement" and "it's not 1940" and "compromise standards" and all the other goddam excuses posters here make for the shambles that our program is in.

It's 2009. Stanford is kicking butt in big games with a 3rd year coach.

We aren't. Period. QED.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 6:25 pm | #

Stanford just hammered another TD. 48-21 with 6:40 left in the game.

Harbaugh went for 2 (failed).

Not sportsmanlike, but mean. Given the fact that it is USC that he's stomping - almost forgivable.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 6:31 pm | #

Stanford's second team offense scores on the ground. 55-21. Stanford eclipses Notre Dame's previous record of 51 points scored in the Coliseum.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 6:42 pm | #

Well, well, well. Hahahahaha, an old fashioned ass whipping.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 6:46 pm | #

Stanford can't be winning, given their stringent academic standards.

Glad I fueled up with Stoli, prior to game time.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 6:51 pm | #

Northwestern either...
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 6:52 pm | #

Harbaugh was coaching at University of San Diego before Stanford. I understand if you don't call this head coaching experience. Harbaugh is one focused coach. I still recall his presence and charisma when I opened the field gate for him when he was recruiting at a Phoenix Brophy high school game last year.
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 6:59 pm | #

I need NC to beat Miami for my pick 6.
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:02 pm | #

Pick up your winnings, GW.
Hi Dana, good Lord, see what a Head Coach with experience can do for a program. Wow!!
Wonder what all those UM fans think?
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:14 pm | #

My mistake Gold - I was confusing him with his brother.

Still an interesting template for a hire. Coach at a non-entity program - I live in SoCal and didn't even know that USD had a football team - and ten get hired at a BCS conference school.
Harbaugh at least had, I suppose, pedigree at Michigan and in the pros.

Still - he had a losing first year, a better second - and in his third could lead this team to the BCS Rose Bowl. Signature wins. Road wins. A team that peaks late in the season (shudder - we're their last game).

It CAN be turned around in a relatively short time. At ND, it hasn't.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:17 pm | #

Stanford 55, USC 21 (final)
November 14, 2009 | 1:03 pm
USC saved a record-setting performance for its homecoming.

But not the good kind.

In a key 55-21 Pacific 10 Conference win over the Trojans today at the Coliseum, the Cardinal scored more points against USC than any team in history.

Not a good day for defensive guru Pete Carroll, who was clearly hot when he met Stanford Coach Jim Harbaugh on the field after the game. Carroll gave his rival a terse "good game," but he didn't like Stanford going for a two-point conversion late in the game, already up 48-21.

USC fell to 7-3 overall and 4-3 in the Pac-10 -- the first time the Trojans have lost three games in a season since 2001, Carroll's first year as coach.

Stanford improved to 7-3, 6-2.

USC simply had no answer for a Stanford offense that scored 51 points against Oregon last week.

Cardinal tailback Toby Gerhart, who USC didn't think was fast enough to recruit as a tailback, rushed for 178 yards and three touchdowns. He also ran for more than 100 yards last season against the Trojans.

Stanford, which rushed for 325 yards and averaged 6.5 yards a carry, has now delivered USC's lost three losses at home -- in 2001, 2007 and 2009.

Andrew Luck was as impressive passing as Gerhart was running. He completed 12 of 22 passes for 144 yards and two touchdowns. He also rushed for 61 yards and a touchdown.

USC got 142 yards rushing and a touchdown from Joe McKnight. Matt Barkley completed 21 of 31 passes for 196 yards and a touchdown but had three passes intercepted and fumbled once. Stanford scored touchdowns after each of the turnovers.

Stanford 55, USC 21 (late in fourth quarter)

Another Matt Barkley interception, another Stanford touchdown.

The USC freshman has four turnovers, and Stanford has converted each of them into a touchdown.

Tyler Gaffney just made it a record-setting day at the Coliseum, putting up more points against the Trojans than any team in history.

To cap it off, the television telecast showed Stanford's Richard Sherman and Ekom Udofia on the sideline taunting USC by giving the "V" sign and saying, "Fight on, USC, fight on."

Stanford 48, USC 21 (6:47 remaining in game)

The rout is on.

USC has no answer for Stanford's offense.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:17 pm | #

I guess one fewer argument for those who say that Charlie's departure (firing) would hinder our recruiting. I am a long-time reader of this great blog and I have watched my first football game when I was 22 and never really commented because I felt I don't know much about football to comment. However, after Oregon and Stanford destroyed USC, I kept remembering how everyone was arguing whether ND has "closed" or "narrowed" the gap in recruiting...

Well, Stanford and Oregon recruiting is mostly 3 star players with occasional 4 stars here and there but look at results. One kicks USC at home, another in the Coliseum and we still talked about how we almost beat USC :-(

I would now say for sure - coaching of our beloved ND team has been so underrated. I hope fans of Charlie see this too.
Airman | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:31 pm | #

Bring the Baugh to the Bend!
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:33 pm | #

Harbaugh has 3 losses.

Obviously that is embracing mediocrity.

Stanford needs to fire him and get someone who can wake up the echos.
aaronb | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:33 pm | #

Sorry, I meant coaching has been OVERrated and nothing can now convince me that in year 5 we couldn't compete with USC and BEAT them if Stanford, Oregon and Washington can.
Airman | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:34 pm | #

I'm starting to side with the Weis apologists here.

Another 6-7 great recruiting classes, and we'll have the foundation in place to do to USC what Stanford just did.

In the mean time, let's be content with our thrilling overtime victory against 3-7 Washington and clutch last minute win against 4-7 Purdue, OK guys?

It's called sloooowwwwlly building a program. In year 15 of Comrade Weis's 10-year plan, we'll be competing for a BCS bowl, I swear.
Dome Sweet Dome | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:35 pm | #

No, you fool, that is embracing IMPROVEMENT - something you clearly do NOT understand. This is Harbaugh's THIRD year - and who at Notre Dame would not embrace Stanford's year so far as our own in Weis' FIFTH?
And he's not working with your precious recruits, dammit.

No, fool - it's not 1940. It's 2009 and Stanford is doing it and Notre Dame is not. 3rd year cach. 3 star recruits. USC passed on Gerhart, who ran for 179 yds on them. Jeesh.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:37 pm | #

I want the Baugh in the Bend!
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:38 pm | #

Break out the umbrellas, cuz aaronb is raining down the sarcasm. Y'all get it, right? Harbaugh has 3 losses, so Stanford's embracing mediocrity.
scott | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:46 pm | #

We'd be winning if they allowed our tubas to be decorated with pot leaves. Do we even have tubas?
indy | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:50 pm | #

Do we even have pot leaves?
JimK | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 7:52 pm | #

Game Thread Right Here.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 8:02 pm | #

They're both piss poor coaches. The difference between Weis and the 'Stache is that the 'Stache figured out that he needed to make changes in his coaching. Charlie is still too damn arrogant to figure that out.

The best thing for Charlie will be to get fired. If he can't figure out that he needs to change from that, then he's probably better off in a sanitarium than a football field.
Ed Smithe | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 8:05 pm | #

And here we go...right to the discussion of the night from the animatronic Disney creation. Someone pull Mussbergers plug...please!

Go Irish, beat 'Stache!
Ed Smithe | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 8:06 pm | #

Interesting stat. Texas as of today has won 10 games or more for the ninth consecutive year. That would account for them passing us last year for the second most wins all time - since they are 10-0 and we are 6-3 so far, their margin of 2 up on us at the end of last season has increased to 6 and counting.

According to this

http://www.georgemacor.com/ NDfoo...all_results.php

we are 61-46 for 57% during this stretch.

Texas during the same stretch is 98-13 - they had to come from a deficit of 30+ games this decade to pass us.
JimK | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 8:11 pm | #

Seems to me Pitt's home unis didn't use to look so much like ours...
JimK | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 8:14 pm | #

Our guys really shouldn't be talking smack to anyone...especially when we have no pass rush. Go out, perform, execute, and win. Then talk smack.
Ed Smithe | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 8:16 pm | #

Corwin..yeah, whack that Pitt QB some more
Weis' Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 8:58 pm | #

Well guys, a chop block and a replay overrule that certainly was not based on incontrovertible evidence. What say you?
lush | Email | Homepage | 11.14.09 - 11:33 pm | #

Perhaps, just perhaps, lessons for us who frequent this site are offered by Bono in today's NYT: speaking to German Chancellor Merkel, Bono said, "...you know nothing creates cynics faster than when leaders accept applause for commitments they fail to meet."
Merkel shot back with, "My father taught me a very important lesson when I was growing up in East Germany - always be more than you appear and never appear to be more than you are."
Bono muses "He (Bono) is a flyweight in the ring with Muhammand Ali. He didn't even see it coming. She just summed up his entire life in the reverse of her personal proverb."
Apparently Coach Weis and all of us "experts," would benefit from a little Bono added to our listening.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 11.15.09 - 10:58 am | #

Lush, I say its not worth the effort given that we didn't bother to play as a team until the fourth quarter.
Not that Tom | Email | Homepage | 11.15.09 - 11:24 am | #