I think the improvement in pass blocking is in part why the run blocking stinks. The team probably spent a disproportionate amount of time working on pass protection this past off-season.
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 3:06 pm | #

The biggest problem with Notre Dame's rushing attack has been the running backs. The O-Line as usual gets dumped on but other than Walker who went undrafted, ND hasn't had great running backs since Julius Jones and Ryan Grant.
The Butobi Brothers | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 3:39 pm | #

Thayer says he'd go to the blackboard to show us, so he's willing to back up what he says). But an indictment of all zone blocking seems to be painting with a broad brush, and maybe a bit partisan to boot.

It is preference talking; Thayer's position coach was Dick Stanifel, who preferred man-blocking. Perhaps Thayer also thinks that man-blocking is easier to teach than zone.

I say "preference" because I would certainly think Thayer sees some opposing teams do zone blocking, and do it well, in his film study.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 3:51 pm | #

I'd agree that Thayer's assessment of zone blocking is probably more personal preference. The Broncos traditionally run zone-blocking and are usually tops in the NFL in running. They seemed to be able to put the ball-boy at runningback and still have a 1000 yard per year back. They also seem to run on the edge of chop(?) blocking (or some form of illegal blocking) nearly every play, or so I've heard.

Whether it's the OL focused mainly on pass protection or a poor marriage of RBs to the zone scheme is beyond me. I heard more about zone running schemes watching one of the NFL games yesterday, and it seems to put more onous on the back than a traditional power running game. Rather than tell the back to hit the 3 hole this play, the back is required to identify the seam, and hit it. He's told where his first couple steps go (directionally), but then he needs to pick where to go. I think I've heard it described as needing the back to be disciplined enough to ONLY take one cut near the LOS.

As a casual fan, I can't tell if our running problems where with the OL the RB, both or a lack of co-ordination. But clearly, zone blocking can be successful.

-Domer96
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 3:54 pm | #

Butobi-
Ryan Grant was NOT a great running back at ND. Good, yes. Great, no. Don't let his accomplishments with Green Bay enhance what he did at ND.
kmf | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 4:09 pm | #

kmf, I agree - Ryan Grant was not a great back at ND. I like the guy a lot, & he's in very select company in that he had a 1,000-yd season w/ the Irish. However, being fundamentally sound, solid, & reliable does not equate to greatness.

That said, I'll take a "non-great" back w/ the above qualities any day of the week, if you'll give me an effective O-Line to open holes for the guy. Aldridge kinda reminds me of Grant, actually. Hasn't come near his production, & might be a little stronger than Grant was, but reminds me of him w/ his all-around balance.
baIrish | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 4:21 pm | #

Our running backs right now, according to scouting experts, should be at least as good as Walker and Grant. This is part of the reason, I think, that the O-Line as to take some of the blame for the lack of production. It's not like the backs just can't run the ball, although at times their vision does seem impaired.
NDgrad05 | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 4:49 pm | #

The Thayer article was a good opinion piece, but that is all it was. Zone blocking can and does work.

The Irish offensive line seems to lack some toughness, and I think the Irish running backs give serious ammo to the people who say Irish recruits are overrated. In other words, there is a lot wrong with the running game.
www.southbendblarney.com | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 4:56 pm | #

What has been the longest run from scrimmage this year?
captain jack | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 4:56 pm | #

I miss Lee Becton, the Brooks Brothers, Culver, Bettis, Green, Pinkett, Denson...Ferguson!

I think the run game sucks for all reasons stated AND it is has no imagination - it develops slow, no lead blocker (FB) and if I see another of those telegraphed deep handoffs from Clusen I might kill myself.
danirish | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 4:58 pm | #

Jay,
Is BGS putting together a piece on any potential new assistant coaches (O-Line, O-Coordinator).

Just curious.
Hopper | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 5:06 pm | #

Perhaps if Charlie didn't change the blocking schemes within 20 hours of a game (EVERY GAME) then we might be a bit better.

To solely blame Latina for our OL woes betrays an ignorance of what is wrong with our football team.
Ed Smithe | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 5:07 pm | #

PS-I've never felt that ND's rushing attack was "aggressive", except for maybe the second half of the sugar bowl when Darius had a few good series. Although, it seems so long ago. Heck, I wish we still had JJ.
Hopper | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 5:08 pm | #

I don't think the blame is soley on Latina, rather both Latina and Charlie together. For some reason, the two of them just don't seem to mix, chemistry wise or scheme wise? I remember watching a practice video last year and Charlie was yelling at Latina during an O-Line drill. I remember thinking to myself, "that can't be good for the offense."
Hopper | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 5:12 pm | #

How can any back hit his stride when he's only getting 10 carries a game? Also, zone blocking or man blocking seems the problem is with fundamentals. Foot work is poor, for big guys they don't drive well and certainly get stood up a lot. Just watch the Navy game. Much smaller guys stay with our OL and DL because their technique is better. That my friends IS coaching.
valpodoc | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 5:38 pm | #

Off topic: Yeatman to transfer. Let's hope Ragone is 100%
NavyJoe | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 6:13 pm | #

What is the success rate for NFL types importing their NFL ways and imposing them on Saturdays? Can't think of any off hand. CFB is a very different game. We like that way, too bad we don't play it .
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 6:30 pm | #

Good grief. It is clear from that video that Charlie actively wants our running game to be bad. How embarrassing. I don't think he cares at all.
NDDL99 | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 6:57 pm | #

ed smith - maybe i missed something, but where does the claim about changing schemes come from? i'm curious bc i'm not sure how we would/could know he does it the friday before every week
alanon | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 7:02 pm | #

It's kinda like when Will Ferrell, in Talladega Nights, says: "Are we gonna get it on, cause I'm as hard as a diamond in an ice storm."

You know that no matter what happens, Charlie's gonna call X's and O's, while Haywood operates the other stuff. In any case, this is an ice storm and we've just gotta weather it. What it comes down to is that defense wins championships, and when it's all said and done, we need a walk on like Vontez Duff to return TD's.
Alex | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 8:19 pm | #

I am making a proposition. Would BGS contact Thayer and have him use BGS as a blackboard and show us the nitty gritty? I would love to see the real workings.
GB | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 10:05 pm | #

"I am making a proposition. Would BGS contact Thayer and have him use BGS as a blackboard and show us the nitty gritty?"

Good grief.

We don't need to see some guy, 20 years out of date, tell us how it worked in his glory days.

I'm sure Charlie Weis knows how to run an offense. He didn't forget after 20 years of working with Parcells and Belichick.

ND put the youngest team in its history (ie 120 some years) on the field in 2007. 2008 was about +150 points (in point differential) better than 2007. If they make the same improvements next season, they are EASILY a 3 loss BCS team (although most likely better).

The #1 factor in predicting a QB's success in the NFL is number of college starts. Clausen has yet to hit his stride. YET, he's already done better (More TD's, less INTs) than 1rst round NFL draft pick Brady Quinn did at this point in their respective careers.

Thayer needs to STFU, until I see him coach an offense to a bunch of NCs or Super Bowls. Dude needs to get over himself. He's not all that. Seriously, do you really think a 1985 offense would thrive in today's games?

I sure as hell don't.
atepesm | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 10:48 pm | #

Does anyone now remember this BGS article:

http://bluegraysky.blogspot.com/ ...132122120909785

and think that maybe they were on to something there? According to that study, success was correlated to cumulative OL starts, and the magic number was 75. Our number was 60. Looking back, I think perhaps that should have guided expectations a little bit more than perhaps it did.
Kyle | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 11:04 pm | #

I forgot the Paul Duncan caveat that put us at 48.
Kyle | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 11:06 pm | #

Take a look at UGA's depth chart. http://uga.rivals.com/cdepthtext...xt.asp? tekey=26

Their offensive line goes soph., fresh., fresh., soph., and soph., One was 1st team all SEC and they blocked for a 1st team all SEC running back. Apparently, they didn't get the memo about the 70 starts.

This offensive line has more problems than it's number of starts. They need some direction bad. Since CW is staying let's hope that Latina was the cause of the poor play and not just the scapegoat.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 11:19 pm | #

Tom Thayer loves Notre Dame (despite having had the misfortune of being coached by one Gerry Faust) and has absolutely no need to "get over himself" as he happens to be a very humble guy who conducts himself in a manner befitting a ND grad. The guy analyzes football for a living!

STFU? Really - tell that to Aaron Taylor, Joe Theisman, and any other former player that gives a sh** about the hell hole we've found ourselves in for the past 15+ years.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 11:19 pm | #

Steve - Are you saying UGA's line should be the norm in college football? Because the stats don't back you up. They were an extraordinary case. Don't bring up one case to disprove a whole set of evidence. Maybe try reading the article.
Kyle | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 11:22 pm | #

Steve-

The Irish would o-line look better with Moreno as well. They blocked for a 1st team back because that is what he is. Same can't be said for the Irish backs (no matter what Rivals said.)
www.southbendblarney.com | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 11:23 pm | #

Funny, for all the blather about Georgia, I don't see them in the BCS this season. They're better off than us, no question, but they're still nowhere near where we want to go.
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 12.15.08 - 11:56 pm | #

MaryJo,

Yes. I would tell Aaron Taylor and Joe Theismann (Note the correct spelling) and anyone else you listed the same exact thing.

None of them has the coaching accomplishments that Charlie Weis has.

Don't be shortsighted.

ND's digging out of a BIG hole. (Youngest team out of some 120+years of football? You do know what that means, right? 120th out of 120 aint no small hole)

Apparently, ND fans don't really understand what that means. And THAT is part of what put ND in this hole to begin with. ND fans drove Lou Holtz out, and what good did that lead to?

I posted FACTS on ND's performance.

Some 'has been' talking about how it was in his 'glory days' doesn't disprove facts. I've got no problem finishing my argument with any of the folks you mention.

None. Even if it is Mr. Tom Thayer, a mutual ND alum.
atepesm | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 12:25 am | #

Atepesm,

If you're going to call me out by name, it's Mary Jo (note the correct spelling). And I wasn't aware there were many, if any, "glory days" under Coach Faust nor did I see anything of the sort mentioned in the article.

And I'm just giddy knowing we fans have the power to get rid of coaches! All this time I thought it was the sucky Administration that sacked Lou!

Have you looked at the youth on Florida's starting lineup, especially the defense? Last I checked, they're going to the NC game. Yes, redshirting. But there's no substitution for playing time and they are all performing extremely well, especially for freshmen and sophomores. We have a few standouts, but not a cohesive unit.

I don't understand the discussion of Clausen in this context. The subject of the article is the Offensive Line.

But mostly, I just don't understand your acidic tone toward a former Domer. I don't think there was any disrespect at all to Weis, and what he says about Weis understanding OL play has been stated so many times and is so obvious on the field of play. Isn't it obvious to you that Weis is struggling? I don't care what he did in the NFL (except in the context of getting recruits) - it has not yet translated to college football.

Finally, are YOU happy with a 3-loss team with next year's schedule? I most certainly am NOT nor should you.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 2:07 am | #

atepesm

Maybe you and I were watching a different game but I saw many teams manhandle ND's O line. Check out Syracuse and SDSU for starters. Even though they may have had more starts - Jeez, it Syracuse and SDSU with 1-3 star recruits at best.
GB | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 2:34 am | #

When coaches win, they're geniuses. When coaches lose, everyone is a genius.
Let's all pat ourselves on the back for being so smart.
Jim '72 | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 5:56 am | #

atepesm,

What success has CW had as a Head coach??? College coach? a near win against SC in 05? A successful assistant does not a HC make. Maybe i'm missing something.

Too many football fans look as the NFL as the end all. For the true CFB fan it is not, in fact who cares what happens on Sundays? We are about Saturday. They are unrelated entities.
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 7:01 am | #

atep,
Tom Thayer, as OC mj noted, analyzes football for a living. As a player for Notre Dame he was a three year starter, and though he was recruited and played two seasons for Devine, he he played his last two seasons for Faust. He was known as a tremendous technician and he was gifted with nimble, quick "dancer's feet". He was a true student of the game. And, oh, by the way, he was the strongest player on the team for two years benching over 500 pounds and squatting over 700. He played at 6'5" 285 pounds, didn't have an ounce of fat on his body and he could run like a deer. In a nutshell, Thayer was better than most any lineman that Notre Dame has had since he graduated in '83, and he is light years better than anything Charlie Weis has recruited or produced.
He played two years in the old USFL, and nine years in the NFL. He was a starter for all of his career, and was one of the "Bruise Brothers" on the Bears famous '85 team, arguably the best football team in NFL history. He would have been a tremendous coach, but chose his post-football career employment elsewhere. The point of this bio: He has the credentials to critique an offensive line!
He didn't arrogantly inject himself into the "Charlie Weis is a Fraud" debate. Weis' Offensive Lines have been horrid since the day he showed up, and they have progressively gotten worse! Thayer didn't pop up last year when the line was miserable. He didn't even do it during this season when they exhibited their weekly Keystone Kops impersonation. He simply gave his opinion to a sports writer after the season was over. And for that you yell that he should STFU? Thayer is able to instantly analyze an offensive line on levels that people without his years of experience cannot comprehend. He played for good position coaches in the pros, and you may have heard of the head coaches he worked for: Mike Ditka and Don Shula. He knows quality football, he knows offensive line play, he knows schemes, he knows leadership, and he knows winning. And when he looks at ND he sees none of that! As a ND fan who is able to actually analyze with his BRAIN instead of his HEART, I think Charlie, you, me, everybody, should not only respect his opinion, but actually heed his advice. It's free and could possibly save the butts of the $4 Million Dollar a Year Phenom, Charlie Weis.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 8:21 am | #

I think Thayer should put his money where his mouth is, and get to ND for an offensive line clinic, or even better, get into Weis' office and explain why he is the man to take over offensive line coaching duties. We all know that a change needs to happen.
Domer97 | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 10:01 am | #

Whether he can lift 700 lbs or not is immaterial to whether he can coach. It is clear that he has a personal predisposition against zone blocking. Sorry, that doesn't wash. There are too many examples of where it works. And yes he has also been out of the game for over 15 years. Guess we should heed anyones advice, no matter who. So now the fans should draw up schemes. Really. What is very clear is that Weis is staying and you can not get past it.

Moving to something more thoughtful...
Jay, can we get a post on OC's or O-line coach potentials if Latina is going, which is by no means a certainty. Someone mentioned that Andy Hech would not be able to be lured away, but the reasons are unclear.
JP | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 10:13 am | #

JP,

Whether Weis is the offensive genius everyone claims he is seems to be immaterial as to whether or not he can succeed as a college HC.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 11:10 am | #

If Weis isn't able to coach, what do we make of his 19-6 record his first two years?
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 11:45 am | #

Way to go, Voice! Love ya, man...almost as much as I love Thayer!But the kids still don't understand that it's not the coach but the scheme he's forced to run.
Domerplayer | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 11:54 am | #

Domerplayer, I agree with Voice for the most part, but I disagree with you that it's the scheme more than the technique. Read the whole post again.

I think people are having a visceral reaction to atep's "STFU" instead of considering the merits (and demerits) of Thayer's position. Atep probably shouldn't have included that in his (otherwise acceptable) comment.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 12:27 pm | #

Interesting thing about Georgia and their youth. Do they zone block? The reason I ask is that I believe zone blocking to be more complicated. Maybe with an OL with not that much experience, Weis should have just sprinkled in some zone blocking this year.
Josh H. | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 12:59 pm | #

Any time someone comes out and says that a scheme of some kind is inherently bad, I tune out the rest of what they say after that. Schemes are designed to work and therefore if they don't work, they aren't being taught properly. There is nothing inherently wrong with the zone scheme-- either it is wrong for this particular team or not being taught properly. Which is it? I have no idea, but I hope Charlie figures it out.

I also don't think it's the running backs' fault. I find it hard to believe that four very highly touted backs were all vastly overrated. Two, maybe, but not four. I think the coaching staff works so hard to incorporate the three main guys into each game that they don't allow any of them to get into a rhythm running the football. As soon as Allen gets a few carries, he's out and Hughes or Aldridge comes in. There's no continuity.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 1:01 pm | #

Jay,

Otherwise acceptable post? A "has been" talking about his "glory days"? If you think that's acceptable, you cannot agree with Voice for the most part.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 1:17 pm | #

Yeah, he probably should tone it down.

Atep, tone it down. I think you can make your points about Thayer's critique without demeaning the man.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 1:30 pm | #

I get the eerie feeling as I read these posts that I am in the barbershop in Hoosiers, as they "interview" the coach
captain jack | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 1:50 pm | #

this is a helpful post ... and I definitely wouldn't mind having a guy like thayer educate us on the finer points of offensive line play. but why does it seem like so many here are looking to find a simple, cut and dry, answer as to why our run game has been so poor?

zone-blocking can be effective in college, but is perhaps not ideal for a generally inexperienced line. latina may not be the problem, but something about him and weis doesn't seem to mesh. remember that ruben mendoza came with latina from ole miss and perhaps his strength program is better tailored to more traditional blocking schemes than weis'. thayer's point about the poor footwork should not be ignored, and is likely due, in part, to an inordinate amount of time being spent on pass-protection last off-season. our running backs are good, but not great ... remember that two of them suffered serious injuries and have maybe lost a step. {insert various other nuances of the run-game that i forgot to mention}.

i don't think any of us really knows exactly how much the varying deficiencies contribute to the overall problem. changes are necessary and will be made. if pass-protection can stay where it's at and run-blocking can improve even half as much as pass-protection did last off-season, then look out.
pablo | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 1:51 pm | #

OC mj wins the points (above) - Weis has had the most experienced 'O' lines in Notre Dame history, and they've performed miserably (see: 2006 and on). Seems that coach at UF is doing passable work with a group of players, a few of whom are old enough to shave.

I used to think it was Latina, but Domerplayer's many postings about scheme, et al, are finally sinking in. Weis wants pass blocking - nice, if you're coaching a select number of NFL teams. His offensive 'genius' does little more than hide the incredible raw talent of his wide receivers and running backs.

As time goes on, it becomes more and more apparent that Darius Walker was a higher-league talent. I've never seen another RB who could make his QB an All-American, be a superb pass catcher, gain over 1,000 yards, and all with little or no O-line help.

Time to start making excuses for -- is it the "Hula Bowl"? I think Hawaii had a decent passer sometime this decade -- he's probably been gone a few years, but let's utilize the "Ty Effect" and go with: "Hawaii's tradition of Stellar QB's presented Weis's Irish, on the searoad, an overwhelming obstacle, the likes of which not even Rockne himself would have dared to encounter. Learning from the loss, though, will surely steel the laddies for a BCS push come 2009!"

NBC's a perfect network for us.
ND1842 | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 2:14 pm | #

Cutcliffe in 2009... After he makes Duke bowl eligible, I'll bet he's on the ND short list... Just hoping UT's Def Coordinator, Chavis, is still available.. both would be great for ND -- experience too...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 3:01 pm | #

As I watch those clips of the Mich.St. game there are 3 very noticeable things that happen on almost every play.

1. There is no push off the line of scrimmage by our line at all. When they engage it ends up either being pushed back, or no movement either way even on the lateral moves.
2. There are always 2-3 players at the point of attack that are unblocked mainly the second level players.
3. A lot of times it seems that one of our linemen ends up down field not blocking anyone in particular.

To me it looks obvious these guys do not grasp what it is they are being taught, b/c as many have said here al- ready, if they execute properly then I don't care what scheme you run it should work. It would be interesting to know what scheme Latina used at Ole Miss & Temple, b/c maybe this scheme is being forced on him, and he doesn't have what it takes to teach these kids this scheme.

On another note, if we watch their footwork and their posture while they are blocking. To me (from watching the NFL combines) these kids tend to have their feet too close together, hence a weaker base(Sam Young), and they bend at their waste a lot which also hinders their strength position. These are basic coaching fundamentals, which would push me to believe there is some coaching responsiblities that are missing here.
Don Buczynski,Jr. | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 3:19 pm | #

For what it is worth here is the wiki entry on zone blocking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zon...i/ Zone_blocking

That entry says that speed and agility should be desired over size and strength. I think the Denver Broncos kind of embody that. When I look at the ND line I do not see much speed. In fact, that was one of the few knocks on Sam Young as a recruit. IIRC, he got torched for a few sacks in his high school championship game by a quicker DE. Maybe somebody can correct me on that.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 4:25 pm | #

Read what the people at Ole Miss said about Latina. Great pass blocking coach, horrible run blocking coach and his offensive lines were always considered soft. Remember Ole Miss had Cutcliffe as head coach and Eli Manning at QB. Mendoza was also the strength coach then. I would think after 4 years that Latina would be able to coach any scheme that Weis had, it isnt like he just put this scheme in and if you read what Thayer said, the footwork is terrible on the OLine. Zone blocking is actually easier to coach, it is basically turn 45 degrees and run. If someone is man up you take him if not you block the first person who crosses your zone. I find it hard to believe that some high schools can coach a zone blocking scheme but Latina can't. Voice has been right along about the Oline play.
DBQB12 | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 4:54 pm | #

CW's first 3 years the strength program focused on speed and quickness. That was deemed ineffective and CW had Mendoza focus on adding mass/bulk and power to the O-line. Not sure why the kept the scheme but changed the strength focus to one that is less desirable for that scheme.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 5:31 pm | #

This is somewhat of an aside, but no matter the blocking scheme, aggressiveness, toughness, tenacity, and energetic enthusiasm should certainly be integral ingredients for success. We can argue all day about schemes and footwork, but when offensive linemen are devoid of emotion and lack the basic desire to physically beat the shit out of people, they are going to get beat on a regular basis. What I can't figure out is why we seem to play so passively, and why do our O linemen exhibit no nastiness? Charlie guaranteed "all day tough" teams, and I see just the opposite. The only thing that I can attribute our lack of fire to, is that, maybe, our guys are so unsure of themselves and /or their assignments that they can't simply play the game with a modicum of abandon, thus they appear robotic or disinterested. And when they get "punked" in one way or another by an opposing player, they don't run to each other's defense or "push back". I'm not talking about being jerks and getting personal foul penalties, but I would just like to see more bravado, swagger and pride. I think that if our blocking schemes and coaching would render more tangible success running and throwing the football, then the confidence levels of our linemen would skyrocket, hence playing with a nasty streak might, in time, develop.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 7:54 pm | #

The OL has not improved in pass blocking. The sacks are down but in the second half of the year the offense was awful. Teams played a soft cover 2 and rushed only three or four. They got consistent pressure on Clausen. They take away the long ball, they can't run and they can't be patient and wait for someone get open because there is little time. That is why the interceptions have increased.

I also think the running backs have perfomed poorly - Allen is just ok - he does not have break away speed. Aldridge & Hughes are a big disappointments. Aldridge is slow and when he is hit low he goes right down.
Bern | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 8:09 pm | #

I am in total agreement with Voice & MJoe.

Ate; When you've been in the arena as Thayer, Voice, & other ND players, it lend creddibility to their critique.

&BTW STFU isn't remotely funny or hyperbolic.
Go save a whale moron.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 8:46 pm | #

From Blue Gold Nation.
Merry Christmas!
C:Documents and SettingsHomeMy Documentsbgn_christmas.gif
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 9:40 pm | #

2005-2006 OL runs mostly man and the run blocking was poor.

2007-2008 OL runs zone and the run blocking is horrible.

Latina and Weis have run both OL schemes and were unable to produce a run game in either instance. What's left to try for 2009? And please spare me the inexperience factor because this OL gets worse as they gain MORE experience from playing time and coaching. They are trending the wrong way.

And atep, please spare us the condescending, self-righteous, tone of your posts. You do know what that means, right?
nbaynd | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 9:46 pm | #

There's a whole lot of p*ss and vinegar running through a lot of the recent comments on BGS the latter half of this season and I don't like it. I'm not going to name names as to who started the playground insults and name -calling (ok, are you listening, Jim Masterson?) But it needs to stop. These are OUR student-athletes and OUR coaches and need positive crticism, not infantile posturing and name-calling. I'm looking forward to my trip to Hawaii to root for MY guys on MY team. I've got a spare ticket if anyone wants to cheer with me - 12th row, field level, 40 yard line.

GO IRISH
Burbank Steve | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 10:33 pm | #

Burbank,

I think you might have confused Jim M with others, there is more than one Jim on these boards.

I certainly respect Thayer's opinion. It's obvious that the O-line has been the root problem the last two seasons. Yeah, they improved this year, but they were still terrible, especially running. I get excited when we can convert 3rd and 1. There need to be significant changes made in how the O-line his handled, that's all I know. Unfortunately, our run game has sucked for 4 years, and as long as Weis and Latina are coaching, I have no faith it will be corrected. As I (and I'm sure many others) have said before, even in 2005 and 2006, ND ran mostly finesse running plays, and on 3rd or 4th and short just let Quinn sneak it. The second quarter of the LSU game is the only time of the Weis era where I have seen what I would call a good running attack.
NDfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 12.16.08 - 11:56 pm | #

Domerplayer

But the kids still don't understand that it's not the coach but the scheme he's forced to run.

I'm a little confused. By "coach", do you mean Latina or Weis. Who is actually calling the scheme? Charley? Also, why do you say "forced to run"? It seems to me that he runs to set up the pass and he passes because they can't run. Thanks
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 12:00 am | #

Anyone see that Urban Meyer said that Notre Dame is still his dream job on a Florida sports radio show today?
Smitty2183 | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 12:49 am | #

BSteve; My apologies for the name calling.
Maybe you have the wrong Jim, maybe not.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 2:21 am | #

Alanon,

I'm sorry, but I can't reveal the source. Let me say about the source that he has first hand experience with CW at ND.

That he changes these schemes within 20hrs. of a football game is a fact. The reason he does it (apparently) is so to confuse the other team (this is what they do on Sundays). The problem is, for anyone that's watched our OL, is that it's our players that are more confused out there than the defenses they play against.

I'm not in South Bend (though my information comes from folks that are), but some of the people on this forum have individuals that they know that can confirm this. Go and ask your friends...this in my mind is just the tip of the iceberg with regard to how out of the loop CW is when it comes to coaching in college.
Ed Smithe | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 7:50 am | #

It seems the overwhelming agreement falls in the corner of Voice in the Wilderness and OCmj. I could not agree more, Thayer has forgotten more about OL play than the cumulative current knowledge of the contributors to this blog will ever know.

Wait to go, Tom. Hopefully someone somewhere will take note of you analysis.

Is there a reason why Masty rhymes with Nasty?
Great White Ape | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 8:24 am | #

It's rather obvious that it's not so much scheme but EXECUTION! Bad footwork is bad footwork. Be it zone or man blocking the object is the same kick someone's ass. Our O line doesn't do that. Too much thinking. If you think you stink. The split second is the key. We lose at the point of attack because we're busy thinking and not doing.

As for Thayer, the man went from staring in the USFL to starting for the Bears as the seasons went consecutively. 30 some straight starts without missing a week. Pretty impressive.

Voice is dead on on this one. Some of you are really over analyzing> The key is KISS, Keep it simple stupid. Strap on the helmet and kick somebody's ass! Even if you make a mistake make it with passion and zeal, this way every play deosn't look like a mistake.
Domer Dan | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 11:55 am | #

Way off the topic but ND related.

Kudos to ND's management of their endowment. I believe as of a month ago they had a slight gain of 5 percent or so....for 2008.

Contrast that with some of the Ivies {Yale comes to mind, I believe off over 20 percent this year}.

There have been numerous articles

on the whole subject of university endowments, and specifically ND . They are well worth a look.


Disclaimer; I know no one who works in that area at ND.

Updated figures on ND always appreciated.

I suppose you could make the case that if ND has the ability to navigate favorably in our turbulent economy...demanding some performance from Charlie et al is not too far out of line.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 12:01 pm | #

Back when I was in school managing your endowment was against du Lac
Majnun | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 12:05 pm | #

My comments are not meant to critique other universities at all.

I mentined Yale specifially because not only were they in the news regarding this issue...but they provided what was called the "Yale model" which many other schools emulated.

Indeed they were often a leader in overall performance.

Again for financial geeks{ we might have 1 or 2 } articles on that topic are available as well.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 12:07 pm | #

Thayer's point wasn't just that his preference is man-blocking. It was that zone blocking leads to a defensive approach to blocking. Instead of attacking the defensive linemen, our guys wait for the defensive linemen to come to us. That's a terrible scheme for an offensive line. And, folks, we saw it all year. Anytime we needed one or two yards, their line -- Syracuse, BC, Michigan State, USC everyone -- would attack and would stuff the run. Instead of our line saying, "we're getting Aldridge seven yards by plowing the defensive front," we said, "I'll make sure if any defensive lineman comes in my area, I'll block him." It's crazy for the running game.
teo | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 12:08 pm | #

I agree with Teo on this one. I did like the improvement on pass protection but I was extremely dissappoionted on the run blocking this year. This NFL scheme of blocking may not be the best way to go. Thayer had a vaild point that poor footwork was a key problem.

I do like when o-linemen go one on one and just bury their opponents. Hopefully, the footwork and runblocking improve next season.

Cheers, Merry Christmas!
NOEL | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 12:24 pm | #

GWA; Yup.
Harvard is down about 40%.
There is an article recently in the SBT referencing the economic downturn nationally and the impact in Northern Indiana.
ND is the largest employer in St. Joseph's County, but the University has so far managed their endowment with a wide influx of many investment ideas.
ND will be frugal in this environment, but there will be no lay-offs or curtailment of the building of those plans on the drawing board and already underway.
Maybe this will pump up the Mendoza School of Business already flourishing reputation.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 12:54 pm | #

Jim:

I think Northern Indiana has been in a downturn for about 40 years.{at least}

As best as I can read one of the crtiques of Yale's performance was that some investment vehicles were rather illiquid...which worked to their advantage...until now.

I woner how Hank Paulson's alma mater did? {Dartmouth}
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 1:14 pm | #

Maybe CW could do something like Pete does at USC.
The whole West side of SB coulduse a little... ahem...Urban Renewal.
GB | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 1:52 pm | #

Any thoughts on what JoPa's extension will do for us, recruiting-wise? I guess I am not sure how much we recruit head-to-head, and whether or not you want to tell kids that JoPa is on the hook for three more years.

Interesting times. :)
Dave in the Basement | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 2:01 pm | #

One point about the line blocking. The thing I am curious about is that Trevor Robinson was put in to replace Stewart when he got injured. The number of plays that last few games where Robinson got burned were unbelievable. I am just surprised that a true freshman would be practicing better than the guys who have been at ND for almost two years. I also don't know jack about O-line but from what I can tell, we did okay with the defensive lineman. From what I could tell, we almost never picked up the second level of attack. It seems from watching other teams play, that they are much more successful at blocking the linebackers that we are. Perhaps Domerplayer or Voice might be able to break down a lineman's responsibility after the initial block.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 2:44 pm | #

whine, whine, rude comment, whine

and the OL sucks....

Just thought I would summarize 99% of the last 77 posts... for those just checking in...


Anybody got inside scoop on any real changes being made by the Weis regime???
jmc | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 3:23 pm | #

Anonymous

What I mean is a position coach does what he is told to do. The overall blocking scheme is very much part of the play book of the off coordinator which in this case is Charlie. Let's not harbor any thoughts that Heywood had any real imput since he was hired. One of the points that I think Thayer was trying to make is a five year pro knows whether he can beat the guy in front of him and drive blocking a 350 guy is normally not productive. Better to finess the point of attack by moving the guy in the direction he wants to go. That's a pro. What Thayer would like to see I think a blocking scheme that encourages the lineman to believe he's going to knock the crap out of the guy in front of him...college kids need that positive reinforcement and the evelopment of that type of aggression.

As for what is zone blocking, I haven't a clue and I have never heard a coach define it in the abstract. One version does not fit all. Each coach has his version of "zone blocking..." or so it has been in my experience. Thayer doesn't like Charlie's version (neither do I) but remember, Charlie is a passer not a runner. He gives lip service to the running game but doesn't embrace it or (obviously) practice it. Everything goes through the QB and his QB doesn't run. As I have said before, in the pros you have great runners and great linemen which means every once in a while you'll bust one regardless, but in Charlie's offense, it's an afterthought. Witness his shift in weight training objectives; he doesn't get it. It's almost as thought, "that didn't work let's try this."

Ed Smithe raises an interesting issue. Charlie is a schemer. He will block a 4-3 one way for team A and a different was for team B. Great on Sunday but for a 19 year old kid? I don't know if the change is 20 hrs before kick-off but he does do that. Perhaps that is why so many of out kids look like they have their thumbs up their bums and their minds in neutral...or so it seems. Pagna (again) has an interesting approach in the latest Blue and Gold online. I don't know if that would work but what he is really saying is keep it simple, limited, BUT DO IT WELL EVERYTIME. Green Bay in the glory years had probably no more than 10 running plays, but boy, did they execute. And please guys, no comments about being out of date, not modern, too far away from the game: What you are watching more and more teams in college and in the pros run these days is simply an off-shoot of the single wing. Still a hell of an offense. Plus ca change...

Finally, Michael I am flattered you think I can explain it. I can't. Sorry, but it probably the result of much of what has been discussed.

A Blessed Christmas, gang. I'm gone.
Domerplayer | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 3:51 pm | #

Here's the link to the SBT article Masty mentioned:

http://www.southbendtribune.com/...EWS01/ 812160348

It says ND'd endowmnet was 6.2 billion in January, went to 7 billion in June, and was back down to 5.8 billion in October. My guess is that it will be down more after this quarter, but I'm no financial analyst.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 4:26 pm | #

Wow. *ND's endowment
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 4:27 pm | #

Being well endowed is a good thing.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 5:47 pm | #

There are teams that went to zone blocking in college effectively. Mike Hart ate us for lunch 2 years with Michigan behind a zone blocking scheme in Carr's last two years. Now, consider it was against OUR defensive line, but still...

I think the real opportunity, regardless of scheme, is simplifying. Our defense the past two years under Brown and Brown/Tenuta has been better, and simpler, than the two years under Minter, where guys were looking at their wristbands at the snap, and were thinking instead of reacting. I wonder (pure speculation) whether the complexity of the offensive playbook is causing similar issues on the OL.

I remember reading the book "Wake Up the Echoes" by Ken Rappoport in the 1980s. In it, he mentioned that Kuharich, another coach with a strong professional pedigree, had a very complex playbook, down to the formations, play names, etc. Ara came in and simplified things considerably.

I'm no coach, but I know in business and in battle that simple plans with hot execution beat complex, even ingenious plans that are not executed well.

As far as the infighting that is taking place in the Domer blogosphere, I do wonder if we are turning on ourselves a bit much. All of us are frustrated, yet all of us want Notre Dame to succeed, even if we disagree on how to bring that about.

At the end of the day, Weis is our coach in '09. Nothing any of us will say or do can change that, nor will we change the blocking scheme, the execution, etc. What we all need to do, IMO, is hope for the best: that Charlie will, as he has after each year, make changes to address shortcomings, this time fixing the OL/run blocking, but without creating new shortcomings via overcorrection.

In the meantime, let's all remember we are on the same team, members of the same family. We can have all the internal squabbles or disagreements we want, but to the outside, to lurkers, to opposing fans, to readers who are students, players, player families, etc., we need to be united. Going ad hominem at each other, at the coaches, at the administration accomplishes little other than venting spleen and perpetuating a vicious circle.
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 9:23 pm | #

Someone early on in the comments asked if there is a way to have Tom Thayer "go to the balckboard" via Blue-Grey Sky.

I would be exceedingly interested to listen/see whatever he might want to share about his thoughts on offensive line play. Whether he ended up talking about his experiences/preferences or critiquing any team's line play so as to illustrate his points that would be great. And if he wanted to risk the wrath of being a critic of OUR school's team, I would still be interested in hearing more from an honest, informed critic and what he thinks about ND's offensive line play.

In any case, if this could be done, I think it would be terrific.
WS Dave | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 11:01 pm | #

I have one small quibble with the notion that a pro length playbook is too complicated for 19yr. old and 20 yr. old kids. It is not the intelligence of the kids, but the time they have available.

I would venture that most of ND's players are as smart as the average NFL player, but the NFL player spends 6 days a week times 8+ hours a day practicing, studying, and lifting. College students get approximately 20 hours. I know there are ways around this, but still. It is my personal opinion that this throws pro coaching style off-track as much as anything. Scheming probably takes a back seat to practice repetition and physical development, whereas in the pros physicality and practice reps are relatively universal. So, in the pro world the greatest advantage comes from out scheming the other players. Just my two cents.

So with that said, it probably doesn't matter if they zone block or not. It does matter that they do it well, whatever they do.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 12.17.08 - 11:23 pm | #

I just wanted to note something. Some of the comments here have noted that they think things should be kept simple, and the zone blocking scheme we have is too difficult. This isn't necessarily so.

In most tradition man blocking schemes, there are complex rules that must be used to figure out who to block. The base-line is block ON, IN, OUT. This means the general rule (and it can be much more complex with traps, pulling guards, treys, etc.) is your blocking responsibility is determined by priority. You get a guy if he is lined up directly over you. If no Dlineman is there, and a LB is, then you block him. If there is still no one there, you look inside (going towards the center). If there is a guy there, you block him. If the DT is over the player inside of you (guard or tackle) then he might help you double team the guy, unless he is pulling. Also, if that DT is shaded to his outside shoulder, then there will be no double team, cause the other guard or center will have to look up to the LB or the inside DT nearer to the center. If none of the above apply, then you look to your outside shoulder and block the guy outside of you. If you're pulling, then forget everything I said.

Anyone still with me?

Now, as you can see, this can be pretty confusing. It requires each lineman to make reads quickly, and communicate with eachother. However, it can become even more confusing.

One of the factors which led to teams in the NFL utilizing a zone blocking scheme was what defenses were doing. Defenses in the 90s would come out in one look, and then right before the snap, they would all shift. With 3-4 defenses, this becomes even more complicated, because their are multiple fronts (Cover 2 D's only use 3-4 fronts tops). A 3-4 D may have upwards of 20 different fronts and alignments. By switching right before the snap, even if by only a little bit, it could change every single lineman's blocking responsibility. This, obviously, can be really, really confusing, requiring each lineman to follow his rules, and before the snap, in a second or two, quickly readjust them.

In zone blocking, one of the ideas was to negate this whole problem and make things simpler. That was one of the primary objectives, to allow players to forget about thinking about rules over and over and to just be in place to be aggressive. While different schemes may be more difficult than others, the general idea is that your responsibility on any given play with correspond to an area of the field, as determined by relation to the Line of Scrimmage and the original placement of the ball. The idea to to get to your area (which can change depending on play) and kick someone's ass. Instead of worrying about getting certain blocks on certain defensive positions in order to open a hole at, say, the 5 spot, you instead focus on using your Oline like chess peices. The focus is to get them into their places quickly, allow them to block, and then a great deal of responsibility falls on the RB to read how those blocks were set up, and to react. IDEALLY, the only person who should be really thinking is the RB in a run, or really just reacting naturally to how he sees the blocks set up. A reason Darius Walker was successful in this system is that he had great vision, while not necessarily to speed we all wanted.

With passing plays, this is different. And as pointed out, another reason zone blocking was put in place was to out-manuever and tire out the 370 lb. DTs the NFL was seeing. This much is very true.

All I am really trying to point out is that while mano e mano blocking may SOUND simpler than the zone system that may not seem as clear, it isn't necessarily simpler. In fact, one of the main tennants of zone blocking is to keep things simple. Thats why zone blocking systems usually only utilize 8 or so running plays out of multiple fronts. The idea was to simplify the system, and to be good at a couple of plays, whereas man blocking systems can have upwards of 50 or so types of running plays, all with differing rules on how to block.



We constantly here about KISS on this board. Keep it simple stupid. While I am not DEFENDING our run scheme (which I am thoroughly disgusted with), I am simply pointing out that the idea here IS to keep things simple.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 6:35 am | #

Interesting point, Brad. I heard over the weekend that the zone scheme needs a "one-cut" back, a patient runner who finds the seam, makes the cut, and goes. That was certainly Darius's strong suit.

When I look at the OL and RB talent we have, I think we can be successful running the ball, but only if what they are asked to do lines up with what they are physically and mentally best built to do, and I don't know that the current scheme does that.
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 7:12 am | #

Kris,

I don't think ANYONE knows what current scheme would do that. That's kinda the problem.

We definitely have more talent on our Oline and in our backfield than about everyone out in college football other than 25 or so teams. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to get 200 yards a game running the ball. To me, at Notre Dame, anything under 200 yards rushing a game is a disappointment. Its what I expect. I know that sounds a bit delusional given the current state of affairs, but I do think that should be the goal.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 8:21 am | #

Agreed. It's about merging what we need with what is possible given the talent we have on hand. That connection is what's missing.
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 9:34 am | #

Kris -

1. I respectfully disagree with your statement that "It's about merging what we need with what is possible given the talent we have on hand." To the contrary, most good college coaches have a workable scheme that they use year in and year out; they then recruit players who fit that scheme and teach them to execute it. Weis has either: a) failed to pick a workable scheme; b) failed to recruit players who fit it; or c) failed to teach them to execute it. My money's on a) and c) both. But the notion that he should be adjusting his scheme to fit his players after four years of recruiting seems silly to me.

2. The only thing worse than the catfighting on this and other ND blogs this year has been the occasional post that tries to stop the hostility with a sanctimonious lecture on how we're all on the same team. I believe that your 9.23 post above was egregious in that regard.
Joe Magarac | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 10:54 am | #

Thanks for your opinions, Joe.

Regarding 1., I don't disagree. The lack of a workable scheme is a mistake regarding "what we need," and the lack of recruiting and/or development is a mistake regarding "what is possible given the talent." There are dangers in slavishly following your system (see Ron Powlus trying to run option plays), just as there are dangers in changing your system haphazardly (see installing the spread for one game against Ga Tech). A good coach ensures that what he runs and with whom he runs it on the field are an optimal combination.

Regarding 2., there was no sanctimony intended, so I apologize if that's how you took it. I'm simply tired of seing fellow ND fans take their frustrations out on each other, to little or no good use. Speaking only for myself, I come to these sites to learn, and to discuss Notre Dame football with other alumni, students and fans, not to read snark.
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 11:32 am | #

This has been a pretty good string of comments, all in all. If anything, this points up the fact that our running game woes have no simple, turnkey solution. I think if the issues were easy to fix, we wouldn't be talking about them.

And can we agree that saying "zone blocking is a bunch of crap" is an awfully shallow diagnosis?

Lastly, did anyone read the link to Trojan Football Analysis, and check out the excellent discourse on USC's zone rushing schemes? We put those links in the post for a reason, you know.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 11:47 am | #

Just read it. Very interesting. It goes to show that the scheme can work.
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 11:58 am | #

I read the article, Jay, but didn't have time to watch the videos yet, which I'm sure would be a good thing to do. One line that stuck out to me was this (CAPS added for emphasis):

"In an average game for USC there might be 36 running plays for example. The last five or six are typically straight isolation lead plays out of the I formation in standard run out the clock mode. THE REMAINING 30 ARE AN INTERESTING MIX of a) zone running plays, b) isolation plays, c) counter misdirection type plays, d) power off tackle runs, or e) toss sweep plays, laterals, and other examples."

Clearly the USC offense knows how to keep the defense on its toes. It doesn't hurt when Reggie Bush is your RB either. :)
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 12:21 pm | #

Yeah, I found that quote interesting as well. They certainly seem to mix it up more than we do.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 12:26 pm | #

Kris -

Your point about slavish adherence to a system is well taken. Thinking about Powlus running the option almost made me tear up.
Joe Magarac | Email | Homepage | 12.18.08 - 4:57 pm | #

Forget about OL, the whole offense needs leadership. On the defensive side, I applaude Corwin Brown he knows how to get into his players head, they all show emotion. Please Charlie be honest with us and tell us you hate running the ball. In your 4 years you have done little to prove me wrong
Jean | Email | Homepage | 12.19.08 - 9:16 am | #

The comment made about Powlus running the option make me throw up a little in my mouth.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 12.19.08 - 3:36 pm | #

Jim Masterson is correct, I have no ability to put a hat on my own head, and I should not be allowed out on my own.

I managed, in my little rant, to misidentify one of the more insightful posters on this board, and I sincerely apologise.

Pat- feel free to block my access to BGS (although that might be deemed "cruel and unusual punishment"). Failing that, I'll say as many Hail Marys for my deserved penance as you guys hand me down.


Merry Christmas and God Bless.
Burbank Steve | Email | Homepage | 12.19.08 - 8:13 pm | #

Brad,

Sorry about that. :-) FWIW, I had a lot of bile I had to choke down to even write it.

Merry Christmas!
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.19.08 - 9:35 pm | #

If one would want to read the original article, one might cut and paste the following to their google window:

site:southbendtribune.com 812120399

and click on the cache of one of the articles.

I ain't advocating nuthin'. I'm just saying if one wanted, that is how one would go about.
Homeydogg | Email | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 3:18 pm | #