I'm usually willing to ascribe officiating errors to incompetence or normal human fallibility. About 99% of the time, that covers it.

But sometimes a call absolutely reeks of something else. The Grimes catch is an example.
lyle | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 12:11 pm | #

wow - great photo.

Just as my disgust over the call was beginning to abate, now I get pulled back in!
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 12:16 pm | #

I can understand a ref calling it wrong on the field as it happens quickly, and was the most ridiculous diving catch I've ever seen. But being in the booth, watching it multiple times and saying there was INDISPUTABLE evidence that it was incomplete... There is no way to say that reasonably, none at all. Give credit to Grimes for one of the most impressive TD catches of all time.
Mike | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 12:20 pm | #

There isn't an honest explanation. The replay official deserves to be fired.
lyle | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 12:37 pm | #

So should we be pulling out our pitchforks?
borromini | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 12:37 pm | #

So do we need our own officiating crew? What do you guys think? Like Mike said, INDISPUTABLE?!?! Some bias had to be involved because everyone was shocked by that call. Maybe that's just my bias. That was a big play.
Tim '09 | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 12:38 pm | #

awesome pic!
wow!
Shadow Hawkins | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 12:42 pm | #

There are some calls that just blow me away. I told my wife it was going to be overturned because the replay officials were taking way too long. It was obvious it should've been a TD.
Chuck | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 12:49 pm | #

When all of that went down, my wife was lugging around our 8-mo.-old, who was sleeping in a carrier on her chest. She was standing next to a woman in Stanford gear, who started clapping and cheering when the call was reversed, and swears she would have turned and belted her if not for the baby ... a simply unbelievable call.
John | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:02 pm | #

Does anyone know why there are so few pictures from this angle? Was the media restricted to one side of the field? I used to shoot for the Observer and typically would stay on one side, but was fully capable of moving to the other side of the field if I so desired.

I also couldn't understand why ESPN didn't show this angle. Does anyone know if they don't have cameras on both sides or something like that?
Michael | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:14 pm | #

I’m confused why this call has gotten everyone so outraged. It was wrong but you won and the game was of relatively little importance. I’ve seen many much worse calls and ridiculous over turns in more important games that had much greater effect on the game. I could probably come up with some for ND. I am completely against instant replay especially in the random uncodified way they’ve done it in college but what exactly is ND supposed to ‘do’ about this?
imafreak | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:16 pm | #

What's the deal with Oldie's game highlights?
PM | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:17 pm | #

"but what exactly is ND supposed to 'do' about this?"

Give Clausen a TD throw and Grimes a TD reception, fix the statistic books, and give ND a win over Stanford by a score of 28-14, that's what!!!
anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:18 pm | #

There's nothing we can really "do" about it. But when the replay officials make such an obvious error, they need to be held accountable for it. You can't just shake your head and move on all the time. Officials need to do their jobs correctly, and if no one calls them on it, they'll just do a worse job.

By the way, there's a pretty good write-up about this that I saw over at Her Loyal Sons that's worth checking out. Has several pictures and some quotes from the Pac-10 as well.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:34 pm | #

I think we all agree that it was a bad call, but I would rather the team not worry about it and move on. If ND gets a Pac-10 replay official fired, it is human nature that other officials are going to remember this and may make calls for or against us because of that. It didn't change the outcome of the game and who cares about the stats... I enjoy discussing it within the confines of this forum, but hope ND let's it be and moves on.

That being said, I second the question about where this picture came from. Was it a still shot or was it something that was taken from ESPN's game film? Did the replay officials have access to this?

Regardless, I will remember it as an incredible catch and the Pac-10 replay officials can't take that away :)
rbingham'97 | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:40 pm | #

This picture is from John D's camera. He took it while at the game.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:43 pm | #

Great pic.

Sad thing is the long, long history of Pac-10 refs making third rate calls. Historically, they've favored USC,costing ND a unanimous 1964 NC, and Michigan a Rose Bowl title.

Ah, tradition!
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:44 pm | #

One thing that I haven't heard anyone else mention is that the explanation the broadcasters were given. If my memory is correct, they mentioned that the replay official saw the ball travel upwards in Grimes' hand and that meant that the ball must have hit the ground. I remember thinking at the time that his hand hitting the ground with the ball on top of it would also probably cause the ball to move in his hands without touching the ground.
erin | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:45 pm | #

Re: Michael's comment.
There was a photographer (student?) with a Fisher sweatshirt that looked like he was right on top of the play, IIRC. Have we seen his pictures of the catch?

Was he an Observer photographer?
Jude | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:47 pm | #

If the game had been decided by that bad call, we would be even angrier.

As it is, the issue isn't about winning or losing. It's about incompetent or corrupt officiating, and that should concern any fan.

When the call in question is so clearly wrong, and doubly wrong in over-ruling the referee on the field, anyone with a sense of fair play should demand answers.
lyle | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:48 pm | #

Unfortunately, I don't think that a 3-7 team playing a 2-9 team attracts the top replay officials. Still, that's no excuse for reversing the call on the field.

The problem I have with the whole thing is the official's misinterpretation of what his duty is as a replay official. His job isn't to look at replays as if they occur in a vacuum. That is to say, he MUST take into consideration what the call on the field was. He should be asking himself "Is there indisputable evidence to overturn the call on the field?", and NOT "What do I think happened on that play?".

It's clear to everyone outside of the booth that there wasn't indisputable evidence. The official(s) should be held accountable--suspension, fine, whatever. That kind of crap shouldn't continue, though it most definitely will.
kmf | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:00 pm | #

I can't possibly imagine that the Pac-10 replay officials did this on purpose due to bias for their conference. Giving a questionable call to Stanford would be one thing, but overturning the on-field ref's call when there is absolutely no evidence (not even hearsay or conjecture) to warrant it is just boneheaded. I think the booth official is just incompetent, because his bias in this case would be obvious to anyone who can see and I just can't imagine he would be stupid enough to choose this play to assert his corruption.

Didn't he award one or two calls in ND's favor that we even less clear than this one earlier or later in the game?
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:01 pm | #

I was thinking that the back judge had a great angle, and his hands went up immediately. Not one bit of hesitation and it was a great call on the field. I believe the "booth officials" wield way too much influence over games. The NCAA should hire and train booth officials, paid for by the NCAA and not affiliated with any conference. They would not be a part of the crew, or allow the referee to view the play in conference with the booth official. Better yet, let the official who made the call confer with the booth official while both review the play. I believe we should demand answers from the Pac-10 concerning this, this isnt the first time that Pac-10 officials have been involved in this type of controversy. I believe the Pac-10 may be the most corrupt conference in the country.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:02 pm | #

You accept that bad calls will happen on the field, and you can accept that a bad call might not be over-turned because of the irrefutable proof requirement in over-turning a call. However, in this case, there is just no way that you can say that.

Just lucky that it didn't really have an effect on the outcome of the game.
ND Alum | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:03 pm | #

John D's pic also seems to show Grimes' pinky finger coming up around the tip of the ball -- keeping it from hitting the ground. What do you think the Pac-10 will say when/if they see this pic?
erin | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:09 pm | #

For the good of the game, it should be policy that replay refs do post game follow up report with video and stills showing why they overturned the on the field rulings.
Moose Krause | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:10 pm | #

you can clearly see that the turf moved up into Grimes's hands, thus causing the incompletion
Shadow Hawkins | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:12 pm | #

I think the ref was trying to throw the game for his own personal monetary gain. We've seen a couple of other sports come under fire lately for corrupt officiating, why not college football?

Did anybody catch best damn sports show last night when they interviewed the bookmaker? Some of his criteria for a "good game for a ref to fix" fit right in with ND - Stanford. Non high profile matchup between ranked teams, etc.

Somebody should launch an investigation to see if the replay official had placed any money on the game.
Brian | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:12 pm | #

Doug, et al:

Your comments about how the NCAA should employ the replay officials falls short, in my opinion.

Officiating during the last two to three seasons, including the replay officials, has absolutely stunk! The calls have been very biased, as Mike Leach at Texas Tech noted a few weeks back.

I think the NCAA should employ ALL OFFICIALS - BOTH ON AND OFF FIELD. That said, there's enough money in the college football ranks to rotate officials from all over the country, so as to break the grip the conferences wield over the sport.

All we really want to see in our officials is good solid calls, not the BS calls like we saw on Trevor Laws, which ended in the overturned touchdown, nor in the Grimes catch. We just want to see equally meted justice on both sides of the scrimmage line.

Is this asking too much? If the NCAA can't or won't fix this, who can? Congress?
ND_Dad | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:13 pm | #

My suspicions match Brian's. Incompetence doesn't explain what happened. Corruption does.
lyle | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 2:15 pm | #

The official should be fired. There is indisputable evidence that the ball was caught. The official said that there was indisputable evidence otherwise, after seeing very clearly that the ball was caught. It seems impossible to think that he did not see correctly; consequently, it is only reasonable to think that he lied. I cannot surmise why he would do so, but it seems clear enough at least that he lied about the call.
Danny | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 3:13 pm | #

Awesome photograph. The Athletic Department should make it into a "Fathead" and sell them. How appropriate that the only real thing of beauty this whole season, and, officially, it never even happened.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 3:27 pm | #

I'm not sure if it was Pac-10 bias so much as Pac-10 incompetence. Those officials have been dreadful for two years now, across the board, to the point that my friends who are UCLA fans are totally embarrassed by them. And the Big East crew who officiated ND-Stanford on the field weren't much better, but at least they called the Grimes catch correctly on the field.

I wonder if they should switch to the NFL method of having the lead official (I'm sorry, I can never remember what all their official titles are) go and look at the replays himself and make the decision, rather than sending it up to a dude in the booth. I don't know. The commentators seemed to dislike the NFL method -- is that because they feel like the officials on the ground run the risk of on-the-field bias (having heard how the players are smack-talking each other, etc), or of wanting too much to make it look like they got it right the first time?
Heather | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 3:39 pm | #

VIW - completely agree, but I would amend saying the TWO things of beauty from this season were not counted.

the it-never-happened lateral return was pretty spectacular too. If only Laws had kept his cool (though I'm not at all indicting him - things like that happen on every play, I just wish it hadn't been flagged on that one)
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 3:45 pm | #

This call is worth discussing and probing because of the question of whether it is related to competence or integrity. The Pac-10 must reprimand the replay official, or else it calls the conference's integrity into question, IMO.

A sidelight on the catch: it reminded me very much of the one that Desmond Howard made against us in 1991. Both times, it looked certain that the ball was overthrown, but the receiver stretched out further than seemed humanly possible to make the play. The play by Howard beat us that day and put Howard on the path to winning the Heisman. Imagine if there had been replay at the time, and if that catch had been overturned ...
rays15 | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 3:49 pm | #

i like how people say that the play didnt effect the game...yet, it was pretty darn close to, with two dropped passes in the endzone with less than a minute less.

lets be real...it could have been a huuuuge deal...fortunately we still won.
buttface06 | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 3:59 pm | #

I hate to say it, but the replay official should be fired. If he isn't, it undermines the entire replay process. A replay official should NEVER make the wrong call - the system is designed that way. Judgement calls aren't reviewable, and if for any reason the review official isn't absolutely certain, then let the call on the field stand. There is absolutely no excuse for the replay booth to overturn the right call.
obediah | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 4:07 pm | #

I think some civil disobedience might be called for here. Maybe we can locate Pac 10 official headquarters and organize a sit-in...
Jester | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 4:18 pm | #

If the replay refs upstairs can't get it right, then just add another layer. Go to a second replay booth and crew that examines what the first replay booth concluded. Voila. Problem solved.

/sarcasm/OFF
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 4:25 pm | #

The first thing I thought when they overturned it (other than a pure rage) was that there is no other explanation than cheating. No one, no one could say that was indisputable evidence of an incompletion. The ref cheated... I cannot believe that someone could be that obtuse. I don't know why he would cheat, but I can't think of another reasonable explanation.

And the reason this matters so much to me is precisely BECAUSE we were so bad this year. This was one of the best parts of the season, if not the best, and it was stolen from the players and the fans. And that isn't right.
Oreo | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 4:27 pm | #

domer03inbmore,
You are 100% right about the wild Zibby lateral play. That play was so exciting that when it ended, and our apparent touchdown was revolked, I realized that I had inadvertantly dropped a crabcake in my shorts. To answer your question before you ask it, I am not sure what type it was. "Warm" is the only adjective that comes to mind. Just thought you would like to know.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 4:32 pm | #

laughing my ass off voice, nice

god willing next season will be full of steaming crab cakes
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 4:37 pm | #

Word.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 4:59 pm | #

what i was angry about was the fact that stanford put a quarterback back on the field that was probably suffering from a concussion very bad decision by coach(michigan alum, figures)
ERIC | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 5:21 pm | #

Who hires replay officials who don't understand the meaning of "INDISPUTABLE video EVIDENCE"? I'm still way too pissed off about this....
ndgirl94 | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 6:22 pm | #

I wonder how much of this call was due to the lowly nature of the two twams involved.

I've got to believe that the officials with the best track records get assigned to games that mean something. That leaves us with the crew we had in this game.

Still, my mother could have called this one correctly.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 6:30 pm | #

One question... wasn't the replay booth run by Big East refs and not Pac 10? I think it is unquestioned that the Pac 10 refs are incompetent (just look at Oregon v. Oklahoma last year), but having Big East refs in the booth (technically our home group, no?) could be an even bigger deal since we will be using them many many more times, especially with Kevin White's future plans of playing three a year.

Just a thought, could be wrong, though.
Jobo | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 6:39 pm | #

disregard my last post, just realized I had it reversed... Pac 10 in the booth, Big East on the field. oops.
Jobo | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 6:41 pm | #

The image of the crabcake in Voice's shorts made me throw up in my mouth just a little bit...
Jason D | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 6:41 pm | #

I just wanna know why there are conference affiliated officials to begin with. Nope... no conflict of interest there with all the money that rides on college football.

I feel sorry for the weak sisters in conferences (cough...Big Integer...cough) that have been stiffed from the upsetting the big teams during conference play. Take a look at most of Ohio State's Big10 games during their 2002 "championship" season. Northwestern, Wisconsin, PSU, Purdue, Illinois AND Michigan were all close games. It seemed to me that the Big10 was determined that Ohio State win every one of those games based on the officiating I witnessed.

Absolutely no reason why officials need to have conference affiliation.
Irish_Angst | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 7:43 pm | #

This is the LAST time I eat dinner while catching up on a BGS thread. Mmm... thanks.
Lou ntL | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 7:51 pm | #

Gotta love the comment by the Pac-10. "The replay official felt he had a shot that showed the point of the ball hit the ground. This is basically a judgement call on his part, as an on-field official might judge defensive pass interference."

REALLY????!!!!??? It's a "judgement call"? No, it's called indisputable video evidence that the call on the field is wrong, not that the replay official makes a judgement call on what he "felt" was a shot that showed the ball on the ground.

Now I don't just want the replay official fired, I want the Pac-10 head of officiating fired. Or at least make him have to sit in a classroom with a nun for the entire off-season writing on the board, "A judgement call is not the same as indisputable video evidence".
JohnWA | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 9:06 pm | #

I could not see the game from my igloo since I do not have cable. I can understand making a bad on field call. An official has just a split second to see and make the call. However, a reviewable call gives officials an oportunity to make the right call. They have enough time, enough different angles and can slow the video down to manageable speed. They also need conclusive evidence to overrule the call.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 9:14 pm | #

That's "does not".
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 9:16 pm | #

Webster's defines conclusive as:

putting an end to debate or question esp. by reason of irrefutability.


The fucking official BLEW IT
gwzimm | Email | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 9:52 pm | #

Someone asked why are ND fans so upset about this call. The answer is simple...David Grimes was screwed. Was it intentional? We will never know.

The thing we do know is that this type of mistake is totally unacceptable. Yes, we won, but the greater issue is errors like this cannot be tolerated.

If Kevin White doesn't lodge a major protest with the Pac 10, he should be fired. That booth crew should never be involved in another game. Why does the Pac 10 have so many problems with their officiating personnel? It isn't just this one play or just when ND is involved.
Ted | Email | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 7:45 am | #

Just looking at the photo, I don't see anything to indicate that Grimes ran in there and made that catch. For all I know, he just picked up the ball and got in that position for the camera.
Incomplete.
Night Rider | Email | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 8:48 am | #

I propose David Grimes be called "Mr. Indisputable"
fatbaldingjerk | Email | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 9:25 am | #

Night Rider may be on to something. In fact, from this photograph, I'm not so sure that the receiver is even David Grimes! Is that an "11" on his sleeve, or possibly a "17"? Hmmm.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 10:18 am | #

"If Kevin White doesn't lodge a major protest with the Pac 10, he should be fired. "

^^ White should have been fired a long time ago. But this would just be another reason.
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 10:27 am | #

Where's Greg Brady when you need him?
One of the Brady Bunch episodes featured Greg Brady becoming a photographer (because he wasn't allowed to play football) and then shooting a photo in the endzone that resulted in a postgame reversed call. Of course, his team then celebrated a victory.
brian | Email | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 10:44 am | #

...but the ball did bounce up slightly when Grimes hit the ground, so, therefore it MUST have hit the ground... Yeah, right. That's indisputable!
Oak | Email | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 12:34 pm | #

I cant belive Noter Dame fans are stil cumplaning about our callls. Evry one was perfekt with a capitol P.

I now that this hear is a fake photograf!! That fake photo was staged at Neobrasca's staydium. See, jest look at the word on the ground. And it is indeesputable that the actor playing Grims is hanging from a heliocoptar. I bet if you look reel close you can see the wires. I know I can, its indeputable.!

Noter Dame probbabbly hired that Rudy hobit guy to play Grims for this pickture - Shawn BEen, or Shawn Connery, no wate, it was Shawn Austen, ya, tahts the guy.

I didnt like that Rudey movie anyway, iF I had bean in the buthe, oops, I meen boooth, I would have oferturned that takle cuz Rudy was ofsides. Yep, it two was indesputabable.

And if I was sutch a bad oficial, than how come Jerrey Jones hired me to work as an offficial on the feeld for the Pakers-Cowbays game last night. Wow, he is anice man and he gave me a reelly nice check. And efen another check cuz I saw that Al Harris dinnit even get that ball away from Teerell Owenz. I even saw that bad paker man make that pass interfrence penilty that the refferre on the spot didn't see late in the game. Yep, that was allso so indesptibble.

OK, tyme for me to go buy my neew glasses. The eye docktor said I needed such, he said it was indesputable.
Pac-10 Replay Official | Email | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 1:42 pm | #

The end result of this call may be a bad Oliver Stone movie.
nylarch | Email | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 5:04 pm | #

A nice touch: ESPN wrapped up their "Bowl Mania" show with a highlight reel of this season, and Grimes' catch made the cut despite not actually officially happening.

They also included Golden Tate's TD catch against Purdue, in addition to a whole lot of the nation's best running backs making fools out of the Irish D.
marchand chronicles | Email | Homepage | 12.09.07 - 12:08 am | #