Ugh. I see red every time I think about that deal. What a horrible, sackless capitulation. Embarrassing. Why does that guy still have a job?
Dylan | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 1:48 pm | #

Dylan, ND's athletic programs are at an all-time high if you look at ND's ranking in the Sear's Cup.

Plus, what do we really know about what kind of pressure ND was under to accept that contract from all those Conference heads and NCAA officials?

None of this surprises me. It just seems like basic Supply and Demand economics. When ND football sucks, they enter a contract which pays less. When ND wins (and customer following increases), ND wants to get paid more.

Why is any of that news?
atepesm | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 2:02 pm | #

It should be noted that the conference champ has to split that money with all of the other teams in the conf, while ND doesn't have to split it with anyone.

It's not as bad as the original numbers make it look. ND actually comes out ahead of any other individual school when it goes to a bcs bowl.
Griffin Caprio | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 2:15 pm | #

Griffin, it was negotiated down from a full share two years ago in exchange for an easier pathway to BCS eligibility. It was a terrible deal for ND, as it traded rigorous incentive for the soft bigotry of lowered expectations.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 2:17 pm | #

Oh sure, not saying it was a good deal, just that it wasn't the "17 million vs. 4.5 million payout" that it seems.
Griffin Caprio | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 2:27 pm | #

While everyone at ND is obviously going to be angry at losing out on the big payday, the new deal was actually considerably more "fair" to all the other teams in the league. We get the same relative $ as Indiana in year's that we don't go to a BCS bowl, and the same relative $ as the Michigan in years that they win the Rose Bowl and we go to the Fiesta Bowl (or whatever).
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 2:31 pm | #

atepesm - ND's Director's Cup ranking is certainly not at an all time high.

Currently ND is ranked 14th.

Quoting from und.com...

In previous years in which the Directors' Cup competition has been held, Notre Dame has finished 11th in 1993-94, 30th in 1994-95, 11th in 1995-96, 14th in 1996-97, tied for 31st in 1997-98, 25th in 1998-99, 21st in 1999-2000, 11th in 2000-01, 13th in 2001-02, tied for 13th in 2002-03, 19th in 2003-04, 16th in 2004-05 and a best-ever sixth in 2005-06.

Last year's performance was great, but an outlier from the usual 11th to mid-20's placing. This year's 14 is about on average (though this number will change once the spring sports are added)

It should also be noted that the new BCS deal actually pays ND more when the program is losing. Before, ND got nothing when they didn't make a BCS bowl. Now, ND gets paid at least a million, even if they go 0-12. So in fact it's not basic supply and demand. It's replacing a feast or famine model that encourages Notre Dame to maintain a strong football program with one that dulls the financial necessity to keep winning.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 2:43 pm | #

What's "fair" about a spot paying $17MM to one team, but only $4.5MM to another. It's the definition of "unfair." If tOSU doesn't like sharing the wealth, they should get out of their conference.

As for the "all-time high" of ND's other athletics programs, how much of that is directly attributable to White? Does it balance out the $13MM he directly cost the AD last year? I think not.
Dylan | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 2:44 pm | #

I think people miss out on some of the context of the deal and just focus on the bowl money. The changes in the BCS contract also made it easier for us to get into a BCS bowl (granted the extra bowl made it easier for everyone). Also, unless I'm mistaken ND also helped prop up the Big East so that they didn't lose their automatic bid, promising to play 3 BE teams a year to sure of the conference's SoS. At the time of the renegotiation Monk was still in charge and Ty wasn't going anywhere until after his 5 years were up. All in all ND was not in a very strong negotiating position and the constant cash flow probably seemed like a good idea based on all indicators of progress at the time.
Samari | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 2:56 pm | #

The old deal was hit or miss and under Ty, it was going to be miss every year. The new deal has a safer return, but the number guaranteed was too low. It should have been in the $8 to $10 million range and this is where White deserves criticism. As much as the other conferences like to think that ND is just another school, the tv ratings and sell outs tell otherwise. ND deserves higher that $4.5 million if they qualify for the BCS. If ND wasn't so up and down for the last decade, they wouldn't have found themselves at the negotiating table.
The Butobi Brothers | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 3:02 pm | #

Griffin- the conference champs get 17 million to participate in the game. so should their opponents. It's not our fault that they choose to be America hating commie bastards with their revenue sharing schemes
crazy tom | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 3:04 pm | #

the $17MM goes to the conference, not the team that gets the bid. i believe if a second team from the conference gets a bid the conference receives the $4.5mm amount (the team that receives the bid gets about $6MM, or whatever is left after the other conference members get $1MM each, i think). $4.5MM is also what a team who is not a member of a bcs conference receives for a bcs bid.

the current contract is merely fox providing muscle for the bcs conferences. this way they get to keep more. i think i read somewhere that the bcs conferences kept around 90% of the bcs pot last year.
yz | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 3:04 pm | #

The problem with ND and bowl games is not the payouts. It is that we have not won one in over a decade!
MikeB | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 3:14 pm | #

Everyone goes crazy about this deal but it was the old deal that was unbelievable, not the new one. There is no way we could have kept that going.

Under the old format, if OSU and Michigan both made the BCS, it cost the BCS $15.5 million. If OSU and ND made the BCS, they payouts were $22 million. I know all of us think ND is worth $6.5 million more than the best 2nd place BCS team but I doubt TV ratings agreed, especially after the BD and TW debacles.

I agree we should do a little better than what we have now, maybe get rid of the guaranteed payout and up the payout when we make it, but everyone is judging Kevin White by the fact that the BCS made an awful agreement with us (for them) the first time. Sometimes people learn.
Animal | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 3:20 pm | #

Does any of this mean that more football tickets will be available? No? Stop the thread, I want to get off.
Jim '72 | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 3:26 pm | #

That canard about "having" to split with other conference members works to the benefit of competitive conference members who get a calendar of patsies to puff up their schedule.

Competitive members of conferences buy wins with those subsidies. I have two words for you: Texas, Baylor.
Coffee Colored Angel | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 3:43 pm | #

Contract talks? C'mon guys, let's just win and then win some more. The payouts will be there in the end.
Felipe | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 4:22 pm | #

I hate it when people refer to money that was never present as a "cost". Like Brady Quinn's fall "costing" him money or us having to take the same deal as a conference participant "directly costing" us.

I'd love to have more money incoming as much as anyone, but letting us keep an entire conference's share isn't exactly fair for everyone else (and they will voice that). Let's see what comes out of this next round.
Barry | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 4:56 pm | #

Yup. It’s obvious. Face it you all. From the sacking of Lou Holtz to the minding numbing BCS agreement, Notre Dame has been blessed with two idiot Athletic Directors. Let’s hope nothing else stupid transpires during the Weis era, Charlie is trying to jump enough hurtles without a dumb AD mucking things up.
Subway Alumni | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 5:21 pm | #

if you decide to be an independent, then what's fair vis a vis a conference is a moot point. apples and oranges. why not unilaterally reduce the nbc contract because "it isn't exactly fair for everyone else"?
yz | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 5:36 pm | #

I was disappointed when FSU, Miami, Penn State and Pitt abandoned independence and joined conferences. I hope that Notre Dame never succumbs to that unworthy temptation. Keeping their NBC deal, and, of course, winning a lot of games can help keep that awful concept from ever actually happening.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 5:46 pm | #

Given the circumstances, I think we were amazingly lucky to get the original deal. The new deal seems like less than we should have taken, but it wasn't as terrible as most of the detractors make it out to be.

Given the current negotiating position, I'd think we could get something in-between... less than a conf. champion share, more than a second team share, as befits our unique status as a ratings draw.
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 6:01 pm | #

Whatever the payout, we better start winning some of these bowl games. Of course they'll still invite us, since we're such a draw, but dammit, I'm tired of going into the off-season with a pounding loss.
Anonymouse | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 6:30 pm | #

This BCS 'deal' was indicative of the Malloy - White attempt to de-emphasize football at ND. Fortunatly Malloy was cast off. Unfortunatly, White is still around.

Whenever, there is criticism of White, some nonsense about the Sears Cup arises in his defense.

If all the guy can do is improve volleyball, why is he at ND?
Peter | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 8:29 pm | #

A very valid point that has been raised and should be noted is that all of this is based on a sidebar note from Matt Hayes. There is no quoted source and for all we know this could just be Hayes taking a complete guess at White's intentions.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 8:35 pm | #

I always assumed there was more to the story with the BCS contract. These negotiations are high stakes poker, and remember the possibility does exist that ND could overplay its hand and get left out of the BCS. Even with a reduced share, we make more money than anyone else by a long shot. At times we may have to leave something on the table to avoid generating even more resentment against this program and having many, many septic ankle bites. Like Cusak's battle against the paperboy gang, you sometimes have to be reasonable with the little people because they have the numbers.

Did anyone else see this Cameron quote about R. Williams:

"I will not allow our fans to be let down by people that are not on our roster -- not again," Cameron said. "It's my responsibility not to let that happen. We have the greatest fans in the game, and we've got men on our team that we're going to focus on."

I just can't wait to see Ginn and Culpepper in training camp. They better crap touchdowns or there will be some pissed off teal-wearing dudes in the sunshine state.
indy | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 8:50 pm | #

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that Hayes is reporting it doesn't change the fact that a renegotiation is what KW should be pursuing.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 10:50 pm | #

Just a side note about BCS payouts: Here's an article that says the NC game actually cost Florida $155K this year, and that's BEFORE factoring in the costs of flying the whole team to Wash DC to meet the President.

http://sports.tbo.com/sports/ MGB...GBC6Q5M81F.html

An excerpt:
"After counting every incoming and outgoing penny related to the Gators football team's January trip to the greater Phoenix area, athletic department officials discovered winning the national title cost the department $155,411."

The calculations didn't take into account the long-term financial benefit from that game (apparel sales and such). But still. It puts all these payout messages in perspective. There's no windfall associated with a BCS game.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 10:55 pm | #

Hmm. Funny how the "real" story seldom gets brought to the table. Anyone ever hear of a guy named Don Ohlmeyer? Of a network called NBC? Of an unprecendented payout to watch a team's (steadily declining quality) games for the better part of .. two decades?

I seem to recall we played a Pac-10 team in a bowl game a few years ago, and I assume we didn't take a penny more than our costs for the "appearance." It was embarrassing to be affiliated with the worst performance in BCS Bowl history.

A few here have hit the nail right on the head: put a product on the field that deserves the dough. Guaranteed that no one who has criticized KW here works in or around television or sports.

If we learned anything about values while at du Lac (for those who attended ND), we learned that stealing isn't looked upon too favorably by our higher league role models. Yet, it's precisely what we've done in every (undeserved) BCS appearance we've made to date.

Hell, drop our payout for the next 5 years to $2.5 or $3.0 mill a game, and give the rest to KW for putting together our first truly across-the-board solid athletic department.

When we play within a TD at a BCS bowl, and don't look scared while on the field, maybe it'll be time to ask if we can 'review' the figures. For now, shame on anyone complaining about what we've stolen from, er, negotiated with the BCS.

Sometimes, the truth really hurts.

Go Irish
Bill H. | Email | Homepage | 05.22.07 - 11:45 pm | #

It's good to read some rational commentary on this subject - unlike the many conspiracy theorists that dwell on NDNation... e.g. FONToKNOW.

There is no doubt that the new BCS deal is a loser for ND, but this deal was NEVER presented to the BCS by ND, Monk, or White. The conference commissioners run the BCS, and I think it's safe to say that they have never liked the great deal that ND used to enjoy. They stuck it to us when they got the chance and there was nothing ND could do about it - all of them against one. Also, listen KW lately. He is well aware of how ND's alumni vehemently opposes joining the Big 10 and he has no plans to pursue it.
Tim | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 1:07 am | #

With losing records to both Michigan and Ohio State and a .500 record with Penn State (following the result of the 2007 game), I think I understand why the fans of the Irish would not want to join the Big Ten. How often would the Irish actually win the Big Ten championship?
daniel | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 1:32 am | #

Kevin White is worthless. Can we PLEASE FIRE THIS GUY!


and hire Lou Holtz?!?!
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 4:00 am | #

Bill H.: I couldn't disagree with you more. I think you're totally off-base, and I find your invocation of a "higher league" based on the erroneous notion that we are "stealing" to be insulting. God's angry because we had a sweet deal with the BCS? C'mon Bill. You contribute a lot here. Salvage your credibility, and get off the crazy train.
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 8:58 am | #

I do recall Spring - Summer, 2006 that White said in print that "This (the new contract) is good for the BCS" I about fell out of my chair and put an article in DD about it. I asked Who cares what's good for the BCS? I care about what is good for ND
Sir John | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 8:59 am | #

I keep thinking I'm missing something here so perhaps I am. The BCS now pays out the following to the 10 teams playing the big bowls (approximately): $17MM to each of the 6 major conferences, $4.5MM to the other 4 "at-large" teams. ND gets $1.3MM regardless and the other 5 D-I conferences get $9MM regardless.

Now if we want to try and negotiate a position that says ND should get $17MM when we go to a BCS game and nothing when we don't, wouldn't the BCS be tremendously disincented to select us in years when we qualify but are not automatic (i.e., the last 2 years)? Where the hell would that extra money come from? Yes we're a big draw but are we really worth $12.5MM more than Wisconsin in years when we're ranked 12th? Somebody would be losing money in that deal and that is not good for anyone. Frankly I'd rather see us negotiate a deal that is fair to the BCS and incents them to select ND to play in a marquee bowl. Of course it's all moot if we don't get off the bowl schnide.
Notre Dan | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 9:27 am | #

One thing is certain, which is putting a contender on the field will give us a much stronger negotiating position. Having the 15th best team in the country pull out of the BCS isn't exactly going to bring the conference commissioners to their knees. Being ranked #1 or #2 and threatening to play our last game of the season in the south bend invitational will.
indy | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 9:28 am | #

No offense Bill H., but I completely disagree with your entire comment.

Look at the ratings for the games that ND has played in before deciding that the Irish don't deserve the payout. Keep in mind that the whole idea behind the bowl games is to bring in fans, viewers, and ratings. ND does this win or lose. Sure, it sucks to keep losing them, but that doesn't change the fact that ND is still a huge draw, even after 10 or so years of lackluster Irish football.

As for "undeserved" appearances, how exactly are they undeserved when ND met the bowl eligibility guidelines set up by the BCS commission? Wisconsin was ineligible last year because Ohio State and Michigan were already in the BCS. That left ND as the next highest ranked team and that's who was taken. As for looking "scared", I don't recall too much fear in ND's eyes when they got within a touchdown of Ohio State with under two minutes left in the game.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 9:30 am | #

Notre Dan,

You asked whether ND's really worth $12 million more than Wisconsin when ND's ranked #12. I think the short answer is "yes." I don't know the hard numbers, but ND wouldn't keep getting outsized bowl opportunities if they didn't significantly outperform the Wisconsins of the world, financially speaking (and I realize in this case that Wisconsin wasn't in play for the BCS bowls). The bowls, as we know, are all about business, and little else.

In my opinion, the thing that really stinks about the BCS system is that it's moved conversations about payouts and such front-and-center. With only one game that really matters now, all other are reduced to exhibitions, and money's about the most interesting aspect of the games, unfortunately.

There was a time when there could be five or six bowl games that mattered, with three or four teams in the running for a championship and several more involved in compelling inter-conference battles. Now most of that's gone.

I'm not a guy who thinks all things new are bad. But I do yearn for the days when you could sit down around the holidays and watch four or five games with rapt interest.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 9:50 am | #

This is off topic, but Harrison Smith won the state decathlon in his first attempt. Gotta love the kid.

http://knoxnews.com/kns/ high_sch...5549893,00.html
knoxirish | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 10:21 am | #

DC - my post, and your response to it, proves the point I wanted to (and obviously did) make. We take a very myopic view of CFB. I'm glad that you missed the game versus OSU (Pac-10) and most of the game versus the other OSU.

In my book, the point of the bowls is to match the best teams in the best game. I always hope, going into a season, that the Irish will be playing for a ring. I think we stand far above (or should, at least) seeking favoritism.

It became ovious to me very early last fall that the 2006 Irish were vastly overrated. I posted so here, and was called a Michigan alum, et al. All I posted was what I saw and felt.

If you continue to believe that the huge payouts we've received for our BCS soirees were merited, let's just say that you and I have different levels of moral interpretation.

The first two letters of your handle may indicate your locale. If so, we can all understand how you would be predisposed to spin the topic of discussion here. Whereas my previous post said that sometimes 'the truth hurts,' it (truth) is distorted and ignored along the Potomac. You'd do well for yourself to relocate.

Let's hope for a great year on the gridiron.

Go Irish
Bill H. | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 11:22 am | #

Hal, I don't think college fb fans outside of ND really care or talk about the money angle. Since everybody gets the same thing in a conference, it just isn't something that matters other than when talking about ND's "special status". However, I completely agree with your assessment of the old days. I think the problem began when Miami, FSU, etc. joined conferences and you no longer had teams that could go anywhere. Now we are so desirous of a 1 vs. 2 game that it has made the other games completely irrelevent.

I was watching the ND/Colorado game from 91 the other night and remembered how sweet it was that GT was playing Nebraska(I think) while ND got hosed by Colorado. No one knew who was going to end up with the NC as there were no undefeated, untied teams and there were several teams who could make a claim. It sure made for a better New Year's Day.

I think the bowl games will continue to ebb in relevancy until a playoff ensues. (not to start that conversation again)
Michael | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 11:33 am | #

Hal, I guess you could debate whether or not an ND ranked #12 would more than make up for the $12.5MM in additional cost over a hypothetical #9 Wisconsin. But it doesn't seem like the people who reap the benefits are the ones who would pay the price. As I understand it, the BCS has negotiated a fixed price with FOX on the television rights. So FOX could charge more for advertising in a game that features ND, and a city like New Orleans would sell more hotel rooms, but that doesn't seem like much incentive for the BCS to choose ND since I'm guessing they would have to shoulder the cost. Sure they'd get a leg up in future negotiations and garner a little good will, but if I'm them I keep the $12.5MM and send ND to the Gator. Anyway, I'm sure I'm missing something.

I too miss the days of watching 3 or 4 games on Jan 1 that all have NC implications. But I don't miss bowl invites going out with 2 games left to play in the regular season and watching good teams play in a bowl against a team that doesn't belong there. I'm in the vast minority of people that actually likes the BCS just the way it is (money negotiations aside).
Notre Dan | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 11:43 am | #

Bill H., your condescending, self-righteous post represents everything I dislike about ND. You are the reason most people hate us.
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 1:07 pm | #

First of all, I am a huge ND fan so rest assured that I am not deliberately trying to aggravate any of you.

But, I'm very curious to know if any of you really believe that ND deserves a $17 million payout for a BCS bowl, or if you would be happy with merely some figure more than the $4.5 million. I know I surely don't believe that Notre Dame (ONE school) deserves the exact same payout that an entire conference receives upon a BCS appearance. Yes, we're Independent and I know we like to believe that we are our own conference, but that simply isn't true.

Yes, we have a huge fan base and lots of people watch out games, but come on. With all due respect in the world, DCDomer (and I don't think that Bill H. should have lashed out at you like that), THIS is why people hate Notre Dame. We are not in a conference, and we do not deserve to have the same rules as conference members do. $4.5 million is not fair, I agree, but $17 million is pushing it.

I know most of you probably don't agree with me, but this is just my own two cents.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 2:07 pm | #

Bill H,

"If you continue to believe that the huge payouts we've received for our BCS soirees were merited, let's just say that you and I have different levels of moral interpretation."

I see what you're getting at here, but I don't share your feelings about this as a moral issue.

When the bowls meant something competitively speaking, there was a moral issue. If, for instance, a #5 team got a shot at the #1 team (and perhaps the NC) simply because that matchup would generate more $$$ than the #3 vs. #1, that's a problem. The reason that's a problem is because ND's would be getting that NC shot simply because it could generate the most interest.

But that doesn't happen anymore. The fact that only two teams have a shot at a NC now means all the other games are high-intensity exhibition games. And exhibition games are all about generating money. If ND excels at that, they get a better position.

Of course, the NCAA would argue that they've got all these mechanisms in place to make sure the bowl bids are merit-based. But really, this is all just a charade. The NCAA has very little control over the bowl committees, and the bowl committees long ago gave up pretending to be anything but profit-driven enterprises.

No doubt you feel this is a sad state of affairs, and I'm with you on that. But the bowls are no different than the Tournament of Roses Parade: they're entertainment that's only tangentially related to the regular season.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 2:11 pm | #

Jade,

In the 1970s, Citibank deployed a boatload of ATMs in NYC. It did so at great expense and risk. No other bank had these machines, and no one knew whether the cost would be worth it.

Turns out, Citi moved a lot of market share, and all the other NY banks huddled together to see what they could do about it. None was willing to take the risk Citi took, so they decided to pool their resources and create ATM networks. Citi made a killing; the other banks eventually stabilized the situation.

ND's place in the business of college football is a lot like Citi's was in retail banking. It's a high-risk/high-reward position.

When ND stinks, they're locked out of a lot of mid-tier bowls, and they get bupkiss in terms of payout. They've got no conference sister schools to even out their shortfall. So why would ND "deserve" any less than it can get when the getting's good?

Sorry if I come off as crazy for the banking analogy. We're deep into the off-season after all.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 2:27 pm | #

Hal:

Yes, the banking analogy was a little crazy, but I understand what you're saying. I guess my main problem is, I don't like basing the argument for more money on the whole "when ND stinks" possibility. In my opinion (and I'm sure everyone else's here as well), if we strive for the nat'l championship every year (like CW himself says) we won't have that problem. That's what we should be doing.

Now granted, CW won't be here forever and who knows? Maybe our next coach (far, far in the future hopefully) will be horrible. And we have to plan for that eventuality, I grant you.

I don't know. Like I said before, more money is fine. But $17 million is reaching for me.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 2:43 pm | #

@Michael, you said, "Hal, I don't think college fb fans outside of ND really care or talk about the money angle." That's not my experience, the money angle is part of the discussion non-ND fans have about ND in the BCS.

@Tim, on what basis do you accuse Font of being a conspiracy theorist? (And s/he, or someone claiming to be, posted a comment in the scheduling story immediately above this one, so they're not only on ndnation.)
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 2:58 pm | #

Bill H. - You are still missing the point. The point of the bowls is not to match the best teams in the best bowl no matter how much you'd like to see it that way. The BCS is designed to do two things: (1) set up the #1 and #2 BCS ranked teams in a championship matchup and (2) fill up the rest of the bowl bids in a way to maximize TV and tourist revenue.

Aside from the fact that no other BCS eligible team was ranked higher than Notre Dame in the BCS rankings, the Sugar Bowl wanted ND because the TV network wanted the huge ratings draw that the Irish provide and the city of New Orleans wanted the attention and tourist dollars that a trip from ND fans provide. The Sugar Bowl was the 2nd most watched bowl, behind the championship game, and generated $127 million dollars for the local community. That is why Notre Dame was, and will continue to be, picked, as long as they meet the BCS criteria set forth by the BCS committee.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 3:18 pm | #

honestly, $17 MM for any team is ourageous, conference affiliation or not. but if that's what the major conferences want to pay themselves, fine. i certainly consider nd to be equal in stature to any bcs-conference team, and in that regard should get the same share.

the ncaa has no control over ANY bowl game, they merely allow teams to play in one (this will need to be changed for a playoff to be instituted). the bowls need to sell seats, and will pick whichever team gives them the best chance of that. there are eligibility requirements for consideration/selection, and one of those is not past bowl performance.

wisconsin can bitch all they want, but the major domo of the bcs is the commish of the big televen. guessing he helped formulate the rules that got the badgers snubbed.
yz | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 3:39 pm | #

I'll try to be respectful in my comments. I'm an outsider, and like most non-ND college football fans, I'm not too fond of ND. Let me give you the perspective of ND and the BCS from the rest of the CFB world.

Except for the Big East, all conferences roughly split up the money earned in bowl games. The ACC, for example, gives 2/13 of a bowl payout to the team participating in a bowl game and 1/13 to the 11 other teams. In other words, ND gets a huge sum of money in comparison to any other team in the nation, including Florida, OSU, USC, etc.

ND also has a very privileged status in the BCS selection procedure. The selection procedure essentially ensures that if ND loses no more than 2-3 games, they get a BCS bid. Considering ND's relatively light-weight schedule, the quest is far more difficult for just about any other team out there.

Not that I really have any right to complain this situation, though. ND has the fan base, as well as the anti-fan base, to get the massive TV audiences bowls like.

On another note, ND's privileged status also explains their horrible performance in bowl games. Georgia Tech, until a few years ago, had the highest bowl winning percentage while ND consistently has the lowest. That doesn't mean that GT is somehow better than ND in bowl games. Instead, it shows how ND gets selected for bowl games higher than where they're ranked while GT typically gets passed over by bowls due to its small fan base.

There also was no clipping in 1991, freaking fifth-down 1990 fifth-down Colorado. See you guys up in September 2nd in South Bend.
Go Jackets | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 3:41 pm | #

Mr. Wed., in Hal's original post, he said that the BCS has moved the topic of conversation to money and bowl payouts. My point was that with the exception of people (whether ND fans or not) talking about ND, there really isn't anybody talking about this issue. There isn't an issue at other schools because they all get the same thing. Most of the talk I hear is how (name your crappy SEC school) can beat USC/MI/OSU/ND with their third string and why it isn't fair that the NC game should have been Florida/LSU.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 3:55 pm | #

Pat: Well said.

Jade: In the context of the altruistic college football landscape that we all wished existed, $17 million is indeed a lot of money. But if we're talking about the BUSINESS of college football, it's not for you or me to say what a lot of money is. The participants in the "bowl market" will determine that. The BCS teams, the people who run the bowl games, the advertisers, the TV stations, the NCAA.

I don't mean to go all Gordon Gecko about this, but no one's giving ND money out of the goodness of their hearts. What ND gets is what the other participants in the process believe they're worth.

The reason I'm so hardcore about this: If there's $17 million out there for a bowl game participant, but ND gets only, say $5 million. Who gets the other $12 mil? The TV network or those guys who wear the funny looking blazers? I, for one, would rather see it go to a university that plows the money into scholarships.

Now it's true that this position is a dangerous one, because when other teams get jealous about the money ND's reaping, they start to lock arms and figure out ways to lock ND out. This, in fact, was happening under Ty Willingham and Davie. We were increasingly in an all-or-nothing bowl situation, because we had much less leverage. It was BCS or CarQuest with nothing in between.

But when we started to get good again in 2005, all of a sudden we reclaimed that leverage. Lo and behold, a middle-of-the-road ND team now has access to decent bowls--the Gator for instance.

My point, which I probably should have made more succinctly, is that ND should not feel greedy for taking its share of the money it generates. That money will be there no matter what. It's just plain ignorant to let someone else take what you've earned.

If you want to say ND should donate a portion of huge payouts to Somalia relief or something, I'm with you 100%. But if you are arguing we should leave it on the table out of some amorphous feeling that it's "too much," I disagree.

Okay, I've had a lot of soda today. Sorry for the rants, and I hope I don't come off like an asshole. I'm not attacking you, Jade. You brought up a very interesting subject.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 3:57 pm | #

Go Jackets,

ND gets a huge chunk of money for bowls because it assumes a huge amount of risk. If Tech shits the bed and goes to no bowl this year, it still gets paid from the security net that is their conference. If ND goes 4-5, it get zero.

ND's schedules are consistently in the top 25 in difficulty, even when the "Commander in Chief Trophy" opponents that ND haters love to cite are factored in.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 4:02 pm | #

Sagarin schedule ratings for 2006
ND: 21
G Tech: 32


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/s...garin/ fbt06.htm
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 4:07 pm | #

I'd like to correct myself and apologize for a hasty post.

ND's schedules have NOT been ranked consistently in the top 25 (by Sagarin), but the shcedule strength still averages out to 27 since 1998.

'98: 27
'99: 38
'00:16
'01:42
'02: 17
'03: 43
'04: 31
'05: 8
'06: 21

Here's the link to Sagarin ratings from the last decade:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/s...rin- archive.htm
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 4:16 pm | #

Hal and Pat,

I agree with you. Schools should get what they are earn even if it goes to Somalia.

I think Go Jackets had a good point that the Jackets went to lesser bowls and did well and ND got in over their head on higher rated bowls and set a record for bowl losses in the process. It is awfully hard to predict how a team will do in a bowl. I don't think anyone would have predicted a 30 or so point blow out in the Sugar Bowl. I don't think anyone would have predicted ND getting beat in all 8 (or whatever the number is) in the bowl games. I don't think anyone would predicted Florida trompting OSU in the NC game. Many did predict OSU romping over Florida though. That is why games are played - to see who wins.

I do not agree with Go Jackets on ND's light schedule. For one thing, they are made many years in advance. Also, I believe that ND's schedule was rated something like # 20 at the end of the year. So something like 97 teams had easier schedules than ND last year.
GB | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 5:48 pm | #

I can say last 2006 2007 Bowls bot blow outs on us they were the Number 2 most telivised watched, so use that as leverage
Sir John | Email | Homepage | 05.23.07 - 6:01 pm | #

Go Jackets, ND is really only priveleged in the BCS selection procedure in relation to the two-team-per-conference limit. In all other respects, our path to the BCS is not much more or less difficult than that of anyone else, except to the extent that our status of a draw makes us pretty much an automatic selection when we're eligible. We have the same at-large qualification rules as everyone else.
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 05.24.07 - 12:33 am | #

Hal, you didn't come off as an asshole at all. You disagreed with me very respectfully and I have no problem with that.

I've actually come around to agreeing with your side a little bit more as well. I'll always think it's "too much" (and, hey, the Somalia thing sounds great to me). But you made a great point (that I admittedly should have thought of before) that the money is out there and it's not like it's going to go to some "worthier" cause if it doesn't go to ND.

At least we'll probably end up using it on academics and not Escalades for our players, right?
Jade | Email | Homepage | 05.24.07 - 1:33 pm | #

Jade,

Right you are.

A 20 year-old in an Escalade worries me.

I remember the piece of crap car that Andy Heck used to drive around in the late '80s. It made me feel like things were right with the program.

It also made me think, "what a bunch of badasses we have on this team. They care only about football."
Hal | Email | Homepage | 05.24.07 - 2:21 pm | #

Rather unrelated (and I'm certainly not suggesting any wrongdoing) but I'm fairly certain Zibby has an Escalade.

Times have changed, I guess. At least we all know that he is a hard worker.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 05.24.07 - 2:45 pm | #

ND most certainly does not have to meet the same qualifications as other schools to get a BCS bid. Tell me which school would ever get in with the record ND took to the bowl game this year.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 05.24.07 - 3:25 pm | #

Are you serious? We went in with a 10-2 record, the same as USC, LSU, and Wake Forest. Compared with the eligible at-large teams that weren't taken, we were the highest-ranked. What's the complaint, exactly?
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 05.24.07 - 3:38 pm | #

Sorry, I guess I left out a bit, I was in a hurry. I meant say, which school would have gotten in with a record against teams like that?

Is it really fair to call the service academies D-1 schools anymore? You have to do better than Air Force being semi-relevant every five years or so.
Matt | Email | Homepage | 05.24.07 - 5:23 pm | #

Go Jackets -

The 'ND plays a weak schedule' angle never holds up. In this instance,the actual numbers attributed to SOS are irrelevant. The Wake Forests and Furmans and Davidsons that are traditional Yellowjacket rivals would play their game of the decade against Notre Dame. Every team on our schedule- every team - plays its game of the year versus us. You play your second best game versus Georgia.

DC - while I came off too harshly against you (my apology) you can bet your soul that I have never been, and never will be, a reason that non-NDers hate Notre Dame. Nothing in my post would indicate that, if anything,the exact opposite. As I said, I work from truth. The truth of the past dozen or so years is that we are a third-rate bowl team, at best.

An 8-2 Irish squad once turned down a major bowl game due to not feeling worthy of the appearance. It was the right call. We no longer operate at that level. So when we're talking here of BCS payouts, I come from the perspective of what is truly merited.

When the salaries of professional athletes began to escalate in a completely inane manner, the popular (and just as inane) retort was "well, an athlete gets paid whatever the market will bear." So, today we look at ballplayers making multi-millions of dollars and don't think twice of it. Earned? No. Good? No. Michael Jordan deserved far more. Tiger Woods does, too. Throw in a Montana and some others. But $6 million to MLB relievers who I've never heard of doesn't fly. The "short career" doesn't fit in, either. What does add up is that we have gone well past the boundaries of sports, and into what "payout" and "bowl eligible" and "ratings" have transformed a one-time competitive sporting environment into. Here, I mean as releated to CFB.

Someone noted above that bowls used to be about 3-4-5 games that left a lot of debate about who the real NC was, well after January 1st. When is the NC game played now? Still in the first week of January? Still in January?

You can smell the rot when it comes down to faulty computer programs coupled with subjective judgment to perpetuate whatever the BCS is supposed to be all about. Don't get me wrong, we live in a society where we worship the almighty dollar. Notre Dame, too, has pretty much come to make the 'Almighty Shekel' its Fourth Person. DC, I doubt that any ND hater will read that and come to hate us more.

I rememeber when things were different, when we were far more special. Don't get me wrong, Notre Dame is still best of the best, with standards that few others can or will follow. It's just that our standards of today are what we not-too-long ago considered sleaze.

We are merely proud members of an end-stage great society, nothing more, nothing less, nothing historically too dramatic.

Go Irish
Bill H. | Email | Homepage | 05.24.07 - 7:15 pm | #

Not sure if anybody's going to read this, but thanks for the responses. I just want to mention I said "relatively" light schedule in my post. I didn't want to compare ND to GT as much as comparing them to the average BCS team, such as OSU, UM, USC, UF and such. The weak ACC last year is a poor example and I know that GT squandered a great chance to go to a BCS game last year. We had an easy road and didn't take full advantage of it.

Also, the BCS process does explicitly favor ND over other teams. ND gets an automatic bid if there in the top 8, while any at-large from another conference must be in the top 4. They make no bones about wanting ND for the TV audience and I'm fine with that as a fact of life.

GT hasn't played Furman or Davidson in years and Wake Forest isn't in our ACC division. We play UGA every year in addition to our ACC slate, as well as Auburn and ND as OOC games in recent years.
Go Jackets | Email | Homepage | 05.25.07 - 1:36 am | #

Well, I just saw ND's schedule for next year and I'll take back anything I said about it, at least with respect to 2007. Have fun with @Penn State, @UM, @UCLA, USC, GT, MSU, BC and Purdue in the first two months.
Go Jackets | Email | Homepage | 05.25.07 - 1:47 am | #

Go Jackets

I like trollers like you who are respectful.

Take care
GB | Email | Homepage | 05.25.07 - 4:31 am | #

I see four viewpoints on bowls.
1. ND's – We could win the National
Championship and our payout would
be $13 million less than the loser.
2. BCS conference teams – They
share the money with the
conference. Individual school
revenue pre-costs is really a $2-3
million average. (See Florida
losing money link above).
For Auburn’s view and an
interesting explanation. http://www.aolsportsblog.com/200...lains-how-bowl- payouts-work/

3. Bowls – ND is a huge draw and even
more attractive at $13 million
less than a conference champion.
4. Non-BSC schools – With Boise St.
last year, their cut was about
18% of $200 million bowl revenue,
an unusual year. Often it is half
that $31 million, only 9% of total
BCS revenue. They share hundreds
of thousands – not millions – with
their conference schools.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/c...l- payouts_x.htm
for a good explanation on the specific of last year's payouts

Last year's big winners were Notre Dame, the Sugar Bowl and Boise State.
-Notre Dame’s individual $4.5 million was more than any other school
-The Sugar Bowl paid out $9 million to the participants, instead of $34 million some BCS bowls paid out plus the Sugar Bowl had Notre Dame.
-Boise St was allowed by their conference rules to take home probably $3-3.5 million of their BCS $17 million.

The unstated winners each year are the Bowls, the BCS conference schools (65 schools) - with revenues ranging from $38 million (SEC) to $21 million (Big East) for the conferences last year - and Notre Dame. Average pre-cost revenue for each BCS conference school was $2-3 million.

The losers were the non-BCS conferences who in total took home $31 million for their 50 schools (MAC, WAC, Mtn West, Conf USA, Sun Belt) and Wisconsin. Subtract Boise State’s $3 million and that is $28 million among 49 schools pre-costs - $570,000 average – though the WAC had the lion’s share of that due to Boise State.
In a usual year with no BCS participant, that would be $17 million less - or $14-15 million for 50 schools - $300,000 per school pre-cost revenue, approximately 7-10 times
less than BCS schools.
Brian | Email | Homepage | 05.26.07 - 12:01 pm | #

I can never understand why ND gets blasted for playing the service academies. What a great tradition to allow our service academies the opportunity. Navy plays very good football and Air Force was consistent under DeBerry. No one ever says anything about playing Western Carolina, Appalachian St, Furman, Northern Illinois or some of the other lower D1 and D1AA schools. We played Army last year because we needed a twelfth regular season game, while Florida played Western Carolina. ND has never shied away from playing anyone during the regular season and if you look at some of the past schedules that will bear the truth. I get tired of hearing how ND plays a lesser schedule because it plays the service academies. Funny thing that with all three on the schedule last year ND's schedule was still rated 21st toughest. We generally try to play the best of the conferences and all schools need some breathers. I say disband the conferences, make a super conference of all division 1 playing schools and divide it into regions of the country. The teams have to play 8 teams from their region plus one team from each of the other regions to make up their schedule. East, Southeast, Midwest, West and Southwest. Think of schedule possibilities then.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 05.26.07 - 3:33 pm | #

ND's schedule last year was kinda odd. We had as much strength at the top as anybody, with both UM and USC, then absolutely nobody in the 10-20 range. It was great for finding out what we weren't (better than 10th or worse than 20th) but poor at ranking us relative to our peers because we never played any of them.
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 05.30.07 - 5:05 pm | #