It would be nice if the players could master both types of lifting/strength exercises.....explosiveness and benching strength. Sort of like having an entire team of Trevor Laws
The Dude | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 12:53 pm | #

I imagine many Irish fans don't get too excited about an offensive lineman's vertical jump or 3-cone drill time while ND continues to struggle on 3rd and short.

Exactly right.

Legs are certainly important, but at some point our offensive line needs to start dominating the line of scrimmage. I've laid a lot of the blame for our QB-sneak short yardage game on John Latina, but Mendoza needs to take some heat as well. If nothing else, the poor showing at the NFL combine by ND offensive linemen will hurt recruiting.

High school kids want to believe coming to ND will give them a better shot at the pros. Getting out-benched by the QB doesn't look good to potential recruits. Also, attitude and confidence play a big role in line play. Being the biggest, baddest MoFo in the weight room can help a lot with both those aspects.
OC Domer | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 1:15 pm | #

I'm glad to see that this is being discussed, as it is a vital part of our team's success (or failure). I'd be interested to see how lifting/conditioning philosophies vary among the top programs, and which ones seem to get the most out of their players.

Another issue is nutrition. Does ND have a training table yet? Do the guys get healthy supplements and extra protein if they need it?

All of these are important and valid questions. Player development at the college level is something Charlie has been a bit slow in grasping (i.e., he did well with a veteran team but last year's young team struggled to improve). He has admitted as much. A crucial part of this development, along with such particulars as lots of hitting in practice, is lifting and conditioning.

I hope that he is getting this figured out.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 1:41 pm | #

Be careful. Take a look at an offensive lineman like Joe Thomas and his combine results from last year (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php? pyid=12696). Certainly, his bench results (28) were higher than the ND offensive linemen's, but it was about average overall. Despite only throwing up four more reps than his first round teammate, Joe Thomas turned out to be a pro bowl selection in his rookie campaign.
Jeff | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 1:49 pm | #

Although an issue, don't think a different strength coach would have helped the OL pick up a basic blitz against Navy on 4th and 7....

Also, some guys excelling and some guys not suggests to me it's more about self motivation than coaching.

Did Quinn have a different strength coach or just a different work ethic...??

If these NFL combine numbers effect a kids decision to come to ND.. then the sky is falling. And if not the sky, then basic common sense.

Anybody know Brett Favres or Joe Montana's combine numbers??
jmc | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 1:52 pm | #

Quick typo "emphasize"
Don E. Brook | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 2:11 pm | #

Are we training a volleyball team or football team here? Power and mass... are there any other goals of a football player in the weight room.
LADomer | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 2:12 pm | #

Power and Mass? You mean big and slow? ND's had that before and all the complaints were that ND didn't have any team speed.

Make up your mind people.

Its sounds obvious to me, that ND probably needs a blend of both a power/mass philosophy and a speed/explosion philosophy.

Is there any study of what future NFL Pro-Bowlers looked like with their numbers? Does it vary by position type? If so how? Should ND train to types of players for each position? Power/Mass guys for the 3 yards and a pile of dust mentallity and then speed/explosion guys for the 1rst and 10 long ball plays?

Great post BGS, but now I have more questions . . . .
atepesm | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 2:17 pm | #

I am not an expert. But, everything I have read about lifting weights for football concentrates on the olympic explosive lifts + squats.

And as far as Quinn outlifting his OL... He is a freak of nature both physically and mentally as far as his dedication goes. Did you see those pics of Tom Brady at his combine? Or take a look at Peyton. Not saying that Quinn will be as good a QB as those two, but phyically he is in much better shape.
Jeremy | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 2:43 pm | #

One of the best O-lines in the NFL are the Colts. They share Mendoza's philosophy. They are the lightest line in the league and they can still dominate. Fat sloppy, slow, and all upper body mass lineman don't work in today's game. ND does not run a man blocking power I offense. When you talk about a "stretch" running game as opposed to a "man" scheme your lineman need to get out in space and move. Asking a 300 pound man to block a middle linebacker in today's game requires a completely different skill set than it did 20 years ago (both because of the offensive scheme and the physical abilities of linebackers.) You can argue about third and short all you want, but the bottom line is the three cone drill is more important than the bench press for an offensive lineman these days.
Mark | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 2:59 pm | #

I think I agree with you Mark. The bench press is more of a bragging right type of thing while agility and flexibility are what keep players in the league. Obviously strength is important, but at the same time Asaph Schwapp is probably the strongest player on the team and, well....

Harris and Santucci didn't wow people with their bench press, but Harris is in line to be the starting left tackle for the Broncos next year and Santucci not only made the Bengals as a 7th round pick, but is now their backup center. Not too shabby.
Pat | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 3:10 pm | #

What VIW will say & as always agree with OCmj.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 4:43 pm | #

PS. Great post Pat.
I'll say 100+ responses.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 4:44 pm | #

I can see an argument for explosive leg power but at some point you also need sustained power and upper body strength as well. Your legs provide the base and balance, but your chest and arms help keep defenders away from you so they can't get leverage, and being able to sustain a push (e.g. 35 reps vs. 21 reps) helps keep the pocket from breaking down on pass plays, rght?. Plus, when was the last time an O-lineman had to jump over anyone?
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 5:46 pm | #

When's the last time an offensive lineman had to pass block a guy for 35 reps worth of time? Just playing devil's advocate ....

Leg Muscles are larger than chest muscles. You will be able to drive a guy with strong legs, not upper body. The sled tool uses primarily legs.
Eric | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 5:57 pm | #

Short yardage blocking is all about leverage. Leverage is all about who is lower (technique) and who has stronger legs. A smaller player can drive block a bigger player if they can get leverage. Strong arms are good for holding people.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 7:55 pm | #

This is the first time in the history of Notre Dame football that Olympic style lifting has been employed, except for power cleans, which are just the first stage of the Olympic "clean and jerk". Until now, traditional, basic power lifting exercises have been the staple. The squat for lower body, and the bench press for upper body. Then a host of supplemental and isolation exercises. For example:
Upper Body a.k.a. Pecs and Triceps
1) bench press
2) incline bench press
3) decline bench press
4) dumbbell flies (flat, incline, decline)
5) shoulder/military press (barbell and/or dumbbell
6) dumbbell shoulder raises (lateral and vertical)
7) Tricep extensions (cables, dumbbells)

The body has been typically divided into 3 parts for lifting purposes...1)upper (pecs & triceps), 2)lower (quads, hams, hips, calves), 3)back & arms (lats, delts, biceps). Each body part gets worked twice per week, hence a six day per week weight lifting regimen was common, especially among underclassmen. Upperclassmen, as they mature, might combine back and arms with their lower body workouts and thus lift 4 times per week versus six.

Power lifting, ironically, builds power. And mass is a natural bi-product, especially in 20
year old, testosterone-laden young men who eat copious amounts of any food they come in contact with. Not to mention mega quantities of beer that some Notre Dame students have been rumored to enjoy from time to time. Power lifting + power eating + power beer drinking = power and mass, which are the age-old components of successful line play.

I have never seen any ND offensive line as ineffective, weak, lackadaisical, lethargic, blase, anemic, pussified, putrid, prideless, shameless, worthless, or sorry than the one we fielded last season. And it corresponds to the only time in the school's history that the "Olympic" discipline has had priority! Mendoza's "philosophy" is shit. The proof is in the pudding.
Let's get back to what we've always done. We are wasting so much time!!!
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 9:28 pm | #

Some of these comments are ridiculous. Bench press is a 'bragging right' and strength is equated to being fat and slow. I think NFL owners with millions at stake have a better idea why these exercises are relevant than the armchair executives here. Give me a break. Do you remember Ben Johnson? He kicked Carl Lewis' ass and was bigger and stronger and on steroids. No question that the brute strength of an O-line guy is much more important than his vertical jump. Our O-line Sucked! It's time to look at solutions not critiquing reasonable questions.
qb | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 9:35 pm | #

Mark,

Not sure if the Colts OL is the best short yardage.

When you have to honor Manning + cover Harrison, Wayne, Clark, & Gonzo, running is a lot easier.

I agree that leverage (technique) does help, though.
ThE LoSt BoY | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 10:15 pm | #

Jeez Voice...you don't need to be so bashful. Say what you've got to say a
nd quite beating around the bush...
Jan | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 10:16 pm | #

opps - typo...s/b "quit" not "quite"
Jan | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 10:17 pm | #

atepsm,
Power and mass need not be exclusive of speed. Common sense suggests that frames that can support more mass do become bigger and more powerful with advanced weight training. Power lifting in leaner body types translates into improved acceleration and speed, with subsequent weight gain being primarily lean muscle.
Thus, athletes with different morphologies can train similarly, but may achieve quite different results. These end-results, however, typically equate to enhanced performance abilities specific to a particular athlete's inherent skill set or his football position's requirement. In a nutshell, using a proven power building regimen can help linemen become stronger, faster AND significantly heavier (if the player is lean to begin with---if the player has a high body fat, then he will generally lose fat while gaining muscle, thus completely remodeling his physique), while defensive backs will become stronger, more explosive, and faster, yet only gain a modest amount of body weight (performance assisting lean muscle).
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 10:24 pm | #

Stop making excuse and get some results. The O line has been abysmal for the last few years, last year being the worst. Don't compare them to the Colts where they have 4+ years to develop a player. We have maybe 3 years!

FIRE LATINA AND MENDOZA!!!
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 11:37 pm | #

Just to add fuel: I thought Coach Latina was a strict disciple of OL Coach Moore of ND who was unceremoniously dumped by Coach Davie & Friar Malloy.
In agreement with VIW, last years OL was so far behind the curve it was embarrassing.
The last two games must give us hope, ND did defeat Stanford in Palo Alto, and Stanford than one against Cal in their big game.
Charlie really, really needs to establish an offense that can control clock,& field position.
I just love ND. A life-long sub-alum, 66 years,
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 11:52 pm | #

That's my Chinese one(sic) won.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.05.08 - 11:53 pm | #

"I have never seen any ND offensive line as ineffective, weak, lackadaisical, lethargic, blase, anemic, pussified, putrid, prideless, shameless, worthless, or sorry than the one we fielded last season."

VIW, this one slayed me, man. If I was an ND offensive lineman, I would print this out and put it on my ceiling, over my bed, so it would be the first thing I would see each morning, the last at night. Stick it on the wall in the weightroom.

If that doesn't get 'em riled up and ready to rumble, nothing will.

That is known as telling the unvarnished truth. I like it.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 1:25 am | #

Actually, I love it. Very Pattonesque.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 1:27 am | #

As a former lineman myself, albeit only in High School and interhall football (Zahm Hall champions '06!) I'd say that leg strength and technique are the 2 most important things for a lineman, and I think our philosophy on that doesn't need to change.

This past season I mostly saw linemen who weren't sure what to do and who played tentatively, as if they were scared of making mistakes. And not aggressive mistakes either. I was always taught if you're gonna make a mistake, at least lay a guy out, even if it's the wrong guy.

I know everyone likes a good scapegoat, but Mendoza can only share a piece of blame, and not the whole pie. Too many people seem to responding like, "SEE! They can't bench! That's why they sucked!" When it's really more complicated than that. To me, they never gelled as a unit, and never got confidence in themselves and their brothers beside them, which is why they looked so poor. How they got that way is up to debate, but I think it's a host of factors.
Kyle | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 2:20 am | #

I agree with many of VIW's comments, especially about the motivation of the OLine. We talk about how well Sully performed in the all-star game, but he didnt get any stronger from the end of the season until then. He then did 21 reps at the combine. So was lack of strength his problem last year? Also, I believe now that many use a towel bench or 2 by 4 bench as a benchmark for power. That thought process being if you are coming all the way from a true bench press then you are already defeated because the opposing player is already into your chest. How much power can you exert with the arms going from 90 degrees to extended. Blocking techniques are much different today with the initial punch and then being able to stomp your feet for drive. Hand cleans today are a big training exercise and Olympic lifting is made more for power. That is one reason that squats are used so much. It also takes a few years to really see the results, if Sam Young isnt vastly improved this year, as in dominant, then we know that this system is definitely not working.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 6:56 am | #

Mark and Pat, I hope all of the experts who responded to the original post pay particular attention to what each of you said earlier. Thanks.
Ted Eberle | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 8:24 am | #

If one is dedicated to getting stronger and is in the gym consistently the overall totals should improve. Do they just go in the gym and only work the legs? It can't take too much time to do a couple bench presses for upper body strength. You have to question the dedication (a ranking of 35th in the bench?). How are you going to throw someone around with that. One of the news people asked Quinn how he got his physique and he told um flat out 'go to the gym'
wd20 | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 8:26 am | #

All this smacks of a discussion on the best way to raise cattle and the next auction.
captain jack | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 9:06 am | #

Kyle is absolutley correct. I'm a former O lineman too; strenth (as measured in bench press) has very little to do with good offensive line play.
jeremy | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 9:21 am | #

Does any one know id JC has his lifting sssions or does he work with the rest of the team?
I heard a rumor he was working alone.
TBone 1966 | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 9:22 am | #

I think we're all missing the point - the key is to figure out how to identify guys that approach the game like Quinn, not whether this or that weight program is optimal. Excellence in the weight room and on the field begins and ends with how a guy thinks. Supreme mental focus will allow any player to excel in any system, all else being pretty much equal. And all else is pretty much equal at this level - raw physical abilities of the high school players that we and the Florida's and SC's of the world are after, experience levels of those players, coaching, our 40lb plate weighs the same as anyone else's 40lb plate, etc. If we can isolate the external indicia that correlate with the mental attributes that made Quinn what he is - a great work ethic, mental toughness, excellent decision making, laser focus, etc - then everything else will fall into place and this discussion about weight programs becomes moot.
Bigdadda | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 9:54 am | #

two factors that have nothing to do with weight training. Heart and knowledge. It was obvious that many of our linemen looked lost on the field last year. Too much thinking which slows reaction time. Heart, desire, courage, whatever you want to call it, Nasty perhaps was missing as well. Hopefullt in 2008 there'll be less thinking and more reacting. Combine numbers have little to do with over all football performance. Remember Tony Mandarich. Monster of a man but a shit lineman.
Domer Dan | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 10:00 am | #

I found a website with old Combine performances if anyone is interested in comparisons. I honestly don't know if these numbers are accurate, but the 2008 numbers match so I'm guessing the older numbers are likely correct as well.

Here are bench numbers from previous ND players.

RB
Ryan Grant - 17
Tony Fisher - 21
Darius Walker - 19
Tom Lopienski - 24

TE
John Carlson - 20
John Owens - 21
Jabari Holloway - 20
Dan O'Leary - 16
Anthony Fasano - 20
Jerome Collins - 21

OL
Jim Molinaro - 21
Kurt Vollers - 30
Ryan Harris - 22
Sean Mahan - 30
Dan Santucci - 23
Dan Stevenson - 24

DL
Lamont Bryant - 17
Grant Irons - 19
Victor Abiamiri - 25
Cedric Hilliard - 26
Anthony Weaver - 24
Darrell Campbell - 25
Derek Landri - 24
Trevor Laws - 35

LB
Courtney Watson - 22
Rocky Boiman - 17

CB
Shane Walton - 11
Brock Williams - 11
Vontez Duff - 13

S
Chinedum Ndukwe - 15
Glenn Earl - 20
Ron Isreal - 20
Tom Zbikowski - 24
Pat | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 10:19 am | #

The bench press competition at the combine is not a true reflection of strength. Many powerlifters will never exceed 20 repetitions in their ENTIRE workout- they are doing high weight and low repetitions. Contrary to popular belief, an athlete must "Train" to perform at the combine differently than training for football season. Also, the 225 lbs. is an antiquated weight- ahtletes are bigger and stronger today (naturally of course) than 25 years ago. Personally, I would rather see the linman put 405 lbs. on the bar and see how many reps they can get- that would be a better reflector of strength, power and conditioning.
The cornfield | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 12:19 pm | #

Granted, I don't have much of an idea of what I'm talking about but I have a hard time believing that strength is the biggest problem with the o-line. Most of the time, they just plain looked like they had no idea what they were doing. That's not a strength issue, it's a mental one. I also thought that Pat made a good point about Schwapp. That guy is huge and, one would think, very strong...but he certainly doesn't play like it.

That said, it would be nice if our starting o-linemen would outbench BQ just once at the Combine. Because that just plain looks bad.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 12:28 pm | #

I think its a mistake to read "focus on explosion" or "emphasis on an explosive base" and translate that as "disregard for upper body strength." Everything starts from your base, i.e. your legs, and works up from there. Having some ripped meat hooks does you no good if you can't drive a man and you can't do that without powerful legs and hips. But I think ND isn't ignoring the uppoer body, its just the philosophy is to spend additional time on the base (legs/hips/core) first while making sure that basic upper body work is also done. They aren't giving up on bench press, they just would rather you spend the time you alocate to secondary exercises on, say, cleans rather than decline bench. The really best exercises are the ones with the most movement because they best emulate actual movements on the field. Ideally, as some have noted, ND's players should be spending a little extra time on their upper bodies too - something guys like Laws and Quinn clearly did.
Thundershaker | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 1:39 pm | #

The o-line has stunk pretty badly the past two years in both pass protection and short yardage situations. Last year on pass pro they looked dumbfounded, which to me is a mental issue. Not knowing who to block, not having confidence in your teammates, etc, will lead to poor pass pro. Perhaps blame Latina for that. However, short yardage situations and run blocking as has been mentioned above require leverage and solid leg/core strength much more than scheme. You line up and hit the guy in front of you and don't stop until you hear the whistle. Now, with all this "focus on explosion" and "emphaisis on an explosive base" wouldn't you think we'd EXCEL in short yardage plays? Why isn't that weight lifting philosophy translating into success on the field? Is that where heart, motivation, attitude, etc. come into play? I don't have enough info to start calling out specific players, but at some point "nasty" has to come from within and can't be manufactured by a coach no matter who he is.

Question: Do we know what Mendoza means by moving to an emphasis on building "mass" or are we just speculating that it means a more traditional weight lifting regimen?
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 2:04 pm | #

I agree with a number of you in this discussion and, admittedly, I am not an expert about what exercises are best for an O-lineman. However, I do know enough to recognize how often I saw linemen turned around and trying to block while facing the QB as they chased the opponent in vain. I know that is not good blocking technique. I don't pretend to have the answer to this problem, but I want to see a return to the days of linemen like Aaron Taylor and Jeff Faine and others like that who, to paraphrase a poster above, when all else failed would put their opponent on the ground. This coming year, I hope to see that kind of play from the O-line and see a lot of defenders picking themselves up off the turf.
GO IRISH!!! | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 3:00 pm | #

Mendoza's approach seems in line with Patriot workouts that have been featured in recent sports publications.

I am a former football player, coach, and a 20-year Marine. I have lifted and trained all my life. In my opinion, line play is about leverage, power, and technique. In that vein, Olympic lifts teach leverage and require multiple muscle groups working in coordination. Since the body seeks balance, strength should increase across all muscle groups. Traditional powerlifting moves while inclusive of multiple muscle groups are different.

Missing from this discussion is technique, and that is not Menndoza's responsibility.
Tim '85 | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 3:01 pm | #

It's 2008. If we can't figure how the f--- to make an OL block, we're in really deep. Really deep. Did every other school (and most high schools) get that much stronger?







Really deep.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 3:14 pm | #

A few things:
-there are no 40 pound barbell plates
-Tony Mandarich WAS a monster until his 'roids were taken away (Pssst. Steroids work!)
-405 lbs on the bench at the Combine would be fun, but dangerous. Even most linemen would get crushed and not even achieve a single rep. Believe it or not.
-In the 1970's the NFL considered a man to be sufficiently strong if he could bench press his own body weight for at least ten reps. The rep-to-failure test is about 25-28 years old, and is done solely for the purpose of comparing players.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 5:19 pm | #

I had to go back and look for the 40 pound plates comment...you figure a guy calling himself "bigdadda" would have "york'd" a few "plates" in his life. Funny, though.
Tim '85 | Email | Homepage | 03.06.08 - 6:15 pm | #

Speaking of power + mass, remember when the Cowboys were an elite team in the 90s...all their O linemen were giants. I doubt they were super explosive. They seemed to focus more on size. I would guess that either philosophy could be successful, but ND needs to figure out which direction they want to go and become good at it. Our O line hasn't been very good in quite a while.
Gabe | Email | Homepage | 03.07.08 - 12:27 pm | #

You guys have no idea what your talking about. If you want to compare apples to oranges, here is the best way. ND had one of the most decorated strength coaches for 10 years at the school, and he couldnt win the big one. I know for a fact that they worked thier assses off in the WR at Nd with this guy, but still the bottom like is the x's and o's. Then Marotti went to FLORIDA and won the championship, but guess what, he did the same stuff that he did at ND that he did there. So it doesnt matter what you do as long as you have a good program and they work hard and beleive in thier work. The staff now is working them hard, but reallly when you have all these primadonnas posterchild recruits who dont know what its like to work hard for what they got, then you got trouble. These guys need to be broken down HARD and force some of em out and quit, see who they got left and grind out the hard schedule. Thats how teams do it. Also, when you have a primadonna coaching staff who thinks that thier shit dont stink because of thier pedigree, then your really screwd. The hardest thing to find in college coaching is a well rounded coach who has a pro style, but also is a blue collar type guy. The coaches at ND are far from that.
cable guy | Email | Homepage | 03.07.08 - 2:26 pm | #

Everbody here knows nothing. Strength, size, speed, and skill mean nothing. Strength is important. Size is important. Speed is important. Skill is important. You gotta have kids that can run, jump, climb trees, etc. I'm a marine, and I can tell you that with technique, or being able to do a lot of squats, or having a 30 foot vertical jump, you're never gonna make it in the NFL. To reiterate, stop acting like a expert, when you know nothing. THe most important thing by far in a lineman is explosiveness and skill.
Shadow Hawkins | Email | Homepage | 03.07.08 - 4:34 pm | #

Actually, cable guy, I think that there is a recognition by the staff that a new level of toughness must be achieved, and not just in the weightroom. The hiring of John Tenuta epitomizes this recognition. I think that he was hired as much for his reputation as a tough-as-nails no-nonsense football guy as for his coaching prowess.

Call him the 'toughness coach.' Hopefully his approach will has a positive effect on the whole damn team, not just the linebackers.

It was a brilliant hire by ND, and JT may provide the breakdown/toughness and character building you allude to.

Good thread here.

Also check out the recent Mike Frank interviews with CW. They make for a good read, and include questions/answers on the subjects of lifting and toughness. CW's answers are less-than-satisfying for me... we'll see what happens in September. After all, that's what it's all about.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 03.07.08 - 5:04 pm | #

While we're on the topic of strength training... What is the collegiate testing process for steriods? Is there truly random testing? Is it the school or the NCAA that decides whom to test and when? With the prevalence (or at minimum, the perceived prevalence) of steriods in certain pro sports where testing appears more systematic and frequent than at the college level, how much of an issue is steroids, or even HGH in NCAA football?
Donger | Email | Homepage | 03.07.08 - 9:32 pm | #

Pat,

Where are Mini-Ditka and God's combine stats?
ThE LoSt BoY | Email | Homepage | 03.07.08 - 10:44 pm | #

..."It would be especially interesting to hear Charlie's thoughts on the ND strength and conditioning program, especially considering his new routine of hanging around the weight room each morning while the players are lifting. Does he like what he sees? Does he even care about the NFL Combine results? Has he asked for any changes?"...


There is a contingent of ND "fans" that believe that no one has the right to ask these or other pertinent questions concerning, arguably, the worst team - if not the effort - in ND football history.

Their refrain is "CW is the boss...do you know more than he does?"...well...I don't...but, so far, I ask better questions...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.07.08 - 11:15 pm | #

JRB's in the House!!
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 11:39 am | #

You're wrong, Jim (of course). Pat's questions are insightful and relevant, and don't fill me with nearly as much malevolence as yours do, primarily because he doesn't expect answers that no one can provide.
Erik '04 | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 4:13 pm | #

...who's pat?...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 5:14 pm | #

I just don't except that ND's OL bench press numbers were the reason the line sucked. That's bullshit.

Much higher on that problem list I have:

- young QB's that screw up the play (hold the ball too long, don't make appropriate audible etc)
- young OL that screw up or don't understand their blocking assignment.
- young RB that dont pick up their appropriate blocking assignement.
- Robert Hughes only being on campus for a couple of months. (The man can moves chains without any blocking. In the vote of Robert Hughes versus the other team in a 1v11, I give Robert a 50/50 shot)

After reading Michael Lewis' "Blindside" book that covers a touch of the history of LT (Lawrence Taylor) and his effect on the LT (Left Tackle), I think bench press accounts for 2% of the problem.

The difference between a play gone to hell and making a block that moves the chains is split seconds. Good footwork, angles, technique etc, understanding the play call, and having the right blocking assignment account for 95% of the problem (I'll wager a nice 3% is luck).

I think ND's 2008 O-line play will be much better, because I expect Clausen to be smarter calling the play, and Robert Hughes to be the #1 RB.

As long as ND's OL can be quick and have good position, I'm not too worried about bench press. As I said earlier, it'd be nice to see ND get some freak OL that are good at both.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 7:44 pm | #

whoops. Accept instead of except.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 7:44 pm | #

I'm certainly no weight training expert, but if Mendoza's approach were so wrong, why does the NFL test those qualities? An why is it that Harris and Santucci and Landri all have landed meaningful spots. It's true last year's ND O-line was pathetic, but it has to be considered that they were an extremely young unit fronting a rookie QB, with Rookie runners, and rookie wideouts. A daunting task.
DuffMan | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 8:02 pm | #

Anonymous & Duff Man reignite my fires of optimisim!!
RJB; Who's Pat is a hoot!!
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 8:21 pm | #

For those who continue to trash the 2007 team:

1. The 2007 Irish scored more points per game and gave up slightly less points per game than the 1956 Irish.

2. The 1932 Irish averaged 3.56 points/game on offense.

3. The 1950 Irish under Frank Leahy scored fewre points per game than the 2007 Irish, a year after the 1949 Irish scored 36 points/game.

3. The 1960 Irish averaged 11.1 points/game on offense.

4. The 1963 Irish averaged 12 points a game on offense.

Did the 2007 team pack it in at any time like the 1985 Irish in Miami or the 2003 Irish in the Carrier Dome??
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 8:27 pm | #

...if you don't know masterson...just say so...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 9:16 pm | #

...lush...whistling past the 2007 graveyard...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 9:17 pm | #

The 1985 team that was slaughtered by Miami in Faust's last game was loaded with talent, but could not overcome the stacked odds against them on that beautiful November day in sunny South Florida. The entire coaching staff was frantically seeking employment elsewhere for the entire week, and Birdbrain Faust was his usual inept self: staggering around like a drunk hobo, crying his bloodshot eyes out. Lou had already been hired, and nobody gave a fat shit about how Faust's last game at the Orange Bowl turned out. The team barely prepared. The gameplan was simple: "Every man for himself, and don't get hurt". The 'Canes were friggin loaded, and the 'Canes friggin exploded! Jimmy Johnson, Mr. Class, rubbed salt in the wound by having Vinny Testaverde continue to throw deep even as the game expired, up by 51.
BUT, I guarantee that the 5-6 '85 team could have killed the 2007 team because the '85 team had some cold blooded killers on it, and the '07 squad was the softest Irish team I have ever seen.
I had to get that off my chest.

And, this bench press argument has veered way off. The fact that ND is physically weaker than many other teams is a cause for concern. Spin it however you like. Sure, there are numerous factors that determine a team's success, but when the Irish can't manhandle and intimidate most opponents in a manner similar to what they have for about 90 years, I see that as a problem. And I understand O line play better than most people, I understand power lifting, and I understand Olympic lifting, and all the nuances and philosophical b.s. that is flying around. But until ND finds its inner bad ass, I will continue to worry about the future.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 03.08.08 - 10:37 pm | #

Evidently, we are all "so over it", but if anyone cares, tOSU DE Vernon Gholston registered a 4.58 40 time, to go with his 42 inch vertical, and his 37 reps at 225 pounds.
And tOSU OL Kirk Barton ran a 4.95 40 and hoisted the bar 34 times.
Both of these athletes performed fairly typically of Ohio State players over the past 5-6 years. Look it up.
If a post is submitted in a forest, and nobody reads it, did it really even happen?
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 7:42 am | #

yawn. voice, could you try to be a little more annoying please? your leadership skills are just too impressive.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 10:31 am | #

...no wonder you're "anonymous"...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 12:19 pm | #

Jim:
Not whistling passed the '07 graveyard. Just pointing out that there have been other graveyards including a few that were worse.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 1:12 pm | #

Can anyone out there recommend a weightlifting program that eliminates guys whiffing on blocks, laughing on the sidelines when losing 38-0 and repeatedly snapping the ball over the quarterback's head?
Fighting Binny | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 3:02 pm | #

Voice:

A comparison for what it is worth--1985 Irish scored four more points/ game average than the 2007 Irish with a quarterback that started the two prior years. The 1985 Irish were outscored 104-20 in their last three games, similar to the 2007 team's first three games with QBs that never started a game.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 3:14 pm | #

Let's get some basketball talk here. There really isn't any huge football news going on so why not talk about the basketball team who is preparing to make a run at the Big East title this week and hopefully change their fortune's from last years early exit in the big dance.
Kyle McMorrow | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 5:08 pm | #

Lush

A much better way of comparison is to compare teams/players against their contemporaries. The offenses nowadays are much more high powered and high scoring. I have never seen a team with more players of the opponent in ND's backfield than their own backfield. The 2007 team was last LAST in offense of all the 119 teams. I would
say that no ND team had offense (or defense) rankings anywhere near the bottom. Do the research and find out.
GB | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 7:37 pm | #

We need to hire Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds as strength coaches. Look at the gains they made in their early 40's! I guarantee our O-line will be putting up 35 reps in the bench press then.

I think everyone needs to realize it is extremely rare for humans to bench 405 lbs naturally. Normally, if someone benches 405lbs they are doing it with some performance enhancer. Very few powerlifters, Olympic weightlifters, and now baseball players don't use steroids or Human Growth Hormone (HGH). Heck, even all the female sprinters are shooting the stuff, as well as people's wives.
Big Mike | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 8:27 pm | #

GB:
I have done quite a bit of research. Are you going to tell me, for example, that Leahy's 1949 team, which scored more points (360) than Ara's 1964, 1965, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973 and 1974 or more points than all of Devine's and Faust's teams (except the 1977 team) and more points than Holtz's 1986 and 1987 teams was not high-powered?? Yet in 1950, Leahy's team scored a grand total of 138 points. Rockne's 1930 team scored more points than Ara's 1971 team, Devine's 1978, 1979 and 1980 teams and Faust's 1981, 1982 and 1985 teams.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 8:36 pm | #

I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!!!!
Chris | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 9:20 pm | #

Total body strength need to begin in the core of the body by strengthening the back and abdominals. A college weight training program should consist with a definite plan from year to year.

The Fr year should concentrate heavily on the core of the body while developing the other parts in tandem.

As they progress, the program should shift focus to lower body. Mind you not ignoring anything but emphasizing squats and thrusts and most of what Mendozza does now.

After you have laid that groundwork of physical fitness and you have prepared the core and the legs, you can now safely add mass to the upper body without severely impacting speed and agility.

It is troublesome to me, that only this year, is Charlie a regular staple in the weight room.
jdubbs | Email | Homepage | 03.09.08 - 9:30 pm | #

My hope for this and future seasons? That we never have these discussions again about our OL - that they're a non-factor because they're effectively doing their jobs instead of standing there like pillars of salt (or was it sand, Jim/Redondo? I'll use the biblical reference in this case). That they stay with their man instead of bouncing off them (assuming they made contact in the first place) like a bumper pool ball.

Only last season did I find myself scrutinizing opposing OLs, trying to figure out what the hell was wrong with us. I just took it for granted that the OL blocked, gave the QB some time, etc. etc. How many times did I yell in frustration "Look what a QB can do when he has a little time?"

The point I'm trying to make in this roundabout post is, when the OL is doing its job, many of us don't even notice - they often are the unsung heroes of the game. Can we just get back to that?

Voice, I thought about adding "invisible" to your fine list of adjectives, but unfortunately our OL was very visible - in the worst way possible.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 2:57 am | #

How are you Jim Masty? I have a quote for you and Knoxville:

"I'm suffering from electile dysfunction: The failure to be aroused by any candidate."

Bob Lutz, General Motors

I need a female version.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 3:11 am | #

...let us hope for better days...amen...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 9:55 am | #

Good Morning OCmj; How was your week-end?
I'm officially suffocated by this longest running political show. No friggen more. I refuse to participate in any way shape or form. Gosh, it's been going on since last Jan. of '07.
I'm an officially banned paying member of the premium site BluandGold. Because I made a snide remark about the shape of one of the children of another poster. Go figure.
Here's my attempt at bandom from BGS.
OCmj:
What doesn't belong and why?
a)wife
b)eggs
c)meat
d)oral sex.
the correct answer is........wait for the drum roll.
d) oral sex.
Why you ask?
You can beat your wife.
" " " an egg.
" " " your meat.
But you can't beat a BJ.
Masty.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 11:36 am | #

Lush

I guess I did not communicate well in my last post. You are still comparing other ND teams to other ND teams in different eras. You need to compare an ND team with teams in the same year. For instance, you need to compare 1971 team with other teams in that year. ND was dead last in offensive stats in 2007. What other team came even close to that figure? The defense was something like #60 compared to other teams in 2007. Comparing 1932 team to a Kuharich, Faust or last year's team is like comparing apples to oranges. Compare apples to apples. It's like saying A Rod is better than Babe Ruth.
GB | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 12:20 pm | #

Ba da Boom! And you're not even having "sexual relations" with a BJ.

We were traveling in LSU country; however, I still saw a few ND shirts as I do whenever and wherever I travel. I'm keeping track, and it's amazing.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 12:26 pm | #

...masterbaterson...classy as always...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 2:13 pm | #

Voice in the Wilderness:

Methinks you are mistaking what power lifting really means vs. Olympic lifting. The traditional power lifts (squat, bench, and deadlift) are mis-named, as they are really "slow" and static lifts compared to explosive movements like the clean, jerk, and snatch (aka Olympic lifts). Power = Force/Time, and Work = Force X Distance. The power and work generated by lifting a 225lb weight from the ground to overhead in an explosive movement such as the C&J exceeds that by lifting the same weight in the back squat, deadlift, or bench press. This is because the former lift is performed with greater force over a longer distance and a shorter time. The latter lifts are performed over a relatively shorter distance and a longer time.

The traditional power lifts are excellent exercises for building overall strength and mass. There is no denying this. An athlete cannot get big and strong without heavy squats and presses. However, these lifts do not build explosive strength the way O-lifts do. O-lifts require strength, speed, coordination, flexibility, and agility in ways the traditional power lifts do not. There is plenty of data in athletic training/sports med literature to support the role of O-lifting in the development of explosive strength, which is critical for football. In addition, there is anecdotal evidence that when comparing elite O-lifters to elite sprinters, measures of vertical leap and sprint times (0 to 20-40 meters) are similar.

In short, a successful S&C program should incorporate the slow lifts and O-lifts to produce strong and explosive athletes.
santamonica | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 3:00 pm | #

I'll also say something else for argument's sake:

The bench press is an overrated exercise, and overhead pressing is superior.

Yes, the BP a good measure of strength and is a good exercise for building upper body strength and mass. However, is it as functional as the overhead press? For what the Average Joe needs to do in daily life (lifting things off the ground and putting things overhead), it is not. In addition, the overhead press provides the benefits of strength and mass building, increased shoulder flexibility and ROM, and reduced shoulder injury risk (acute and chronic) c/w bench pressing. For explosive sports, a combination of overhead pressing and jerks can build excellent strength and power.
santamonica | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 3:26 pm | #

OC; Hoping you and your family are enjoying the hospitality of the "old south." They certainly, the SEC, have their priorities in order: football,booze, broads,& guns.
Jim from RB; Did you take the same humor classes at ND that Father Monk Malloy took? Just askin' ya' know!
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 4:13 pm | #

From deep fried oysters, beignets and hurricanes back to low-fat, no-fat, zero-body-fat southern California...sigh.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 7:10 pm | #

Some things:
OC mj, I have been concerned that the Secret Service had misplaced you. Sounds like Loozyanna was fun. Mayor Ray "School Bus" Nagin is a real hoot.

Masty,
As president of your fan club, I expect another tsunami of membership apps. At $99 per year, we're doing really, really well. Of course, I'm rolling all that cash back into R&D. Also, I nearly nose-sprayed a Wild Turkey and Ginger Ale cocktail all over my keyboard when I read your Monk Malloy "humor classes" line. The words "Monk Malloy" and "humor" have never appeared in the same sentence. Ever. "Dour", yes. "Humor", not so much. I tried to make him laugh for four years, and he never even smiled!

santamonica,
Your discussion of Olympic lifting vs. traditional power lifting was very good. I agree with you on your assessment that a blend of the two disciplines would probably foster optimum performance.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 8:20 pm | #

..."masty" & "voice"...does the term "daisy-chain" ring a bell...?
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 10:39 pm | #

Jim,
In the words of Archie Bunker,"Stifle dere, meathead!"
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 11:00 pm | #

No, no, no Woice; I stand in awe of your polymath prowness.
OCmj is back in "the game."
Daisy Chain? Don't know it. Of course I'm a Priceton grad & look at the nabobs from that university: Nader, Bradley(sen.)Mrs. Barrack Obama.
What the hell is there to hang a hat on.
Anonymous; The Dems want to outlaw anonymous posting on the internet. You'll be in trouble with Reid & Polosi, brhahahahahahahahahahaha.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 12:16 am | #

GB:
You did communicate well. Posters are contending that the 2007 ND team was the worst in school's history, which necessitates a comparison of the 2007 Irish to the ND teams of the past, not simply other 2007 Division 1A-teams.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 6:45 am | #

Interesting that the far left would want to Marx up the internet!
Domer Dan | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 9:50 am | #

Jim Redondo,

I hope you're talking about computer jargon and not something Eliot Spitzer might have been up to.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 12:24 pm | #

OCmj; brhahahahahahahahaha.
Eliot Spitzer, what a conceited, sanctimonious a$$.
Somewhere Richard Grasso & "Ace Greenberg of AIG are laughing their a$$es off.
Not Jim RB, & Father Malloy, no sense of humor betwix those two. Too much time in the library boyz. They could repeat by rote the first two laws of thermo-dynamics, but never saw a Looney Tunes cartoon that they laughed at.
I predicted 100 post, if you take out my 37 it's not bad.
Hi OC, VIW.
My heros. Sigh!
By the way OCmj, why don't the wives of these morons, McGreevey, Spitzer,Clinton, kick them in their sorry a$$es & cahange the locks?
Well we know Clinton, she's like the women Spitzer visited, just uglier & more vile.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 2:16 pm | #

Jim

I thought this was a football blog.
GB | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 2:48 pm | #

Lush

Let me try this one more time. Getting back to my analogy of Babe Ruth and A Rod. If you compare them directly, one would say A Rod is better since he hit his milestones earlier than the Babe. He is in better condition and is a pretty good infielder. This is not a fair comparison. A lot of changes occurred in the game between then and now (possibly including the ball itself). A Rod is usually near the top of the HR, RBI and hitting stats. Babe Ruth changed the way baseball is played by obliterating HR records. He hit more HRs than most teams. He was WAY ahead in RBIs and one of the top hitters.

You could compare LaDainian to Jim Brown. La Dainian broke Jim Brown's record by becoming the fastest player ever to score 100 touchdowns. Does this make LT better than JB? LT is usually one of the better backs from year to year. Brown was by far the best in pro football during his time.

The 70s Steelers were the team of the decade. However, the worst teams now would tear them up. The 2007 ND team would run circles around Rockne's or Leahys team if somehow they could play each other. Players are bigger, faster, better conditioned; teams have a more wide open game, blitzes schemes, etc. You need to compare a team to contemporaries. 2007 was dead last in offense. I tried to find out offensive stats for past years compared to the rest of the NCAA. I could not find any. Perhaps Pat might be able to help out here. I seriously doubt if any ND team was near the bottom in offensive or defensive if not last in any category ever.
GB | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 3:27 pm | #

GB; I beg to differ.
Look at the empirical data of over-lapping super stars in baseball.
Ruth out-shone Cobb, was greater than Gehrig, who was as good as DiMaggio in their three years together, Joe Di and Teddy "ball game" were the best of the 40's, Ted Williams, was 2nd to Mantle in the 50's, which included, Mays, Robinson, both Jackie and Frank, Aaron, mays & Aaron were the best of the 60's which included Rose, etc. it goe on until today, but great ball-players in baseball, more than held their own against the following super-stars.
ND last year was pathetivc in any statistical sense, just completely out-classed.
The concern is CW saying he would set his offense according to ability, it seems obvious they had not passing ability, why not set the offense to control the clock by running the ball?
Just askin' ya know.
We realize this is a football blog, once in a great while we kid around.
Big friggen deal.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 4:27 pm | #

GB and others interested in stats:

There is an impressive website (cfbstats.com) that lists a number of individual, team, conference and national stats starting from the 2004 season; however, I'm not sure if that goes back far enough for purposes of your discussion.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 4:27 pm | #

OC mj

Thanks.. I looked at that site but maybe I am blind.
GB | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 4:51 pm | #

GB:
One final comment--my response was also driven by the stattement that the offenses of yesteryear were not high-powered compared to today's offenses. The 1930 and 1949 teams are clear proof to the contrary. Moreover, in 1950, Leahy did not suddenly forget how to coach scoring only 138 points after scoring 360 in 1949. BTW, in 2005 and 2006, ND scored 710 points (exclusive of bowl games), the highest amount in any two consecutive years in ND history.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 7:15 pm | #

Correction to my last post--the point total was 810, not 710!!
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.11.08 - 7:15 pm | #

Donger had a comment about steroids' role in all of this that didn't get much of a response, but I think it deserves more attention.

I have heard that ND is tougher than most schools in testing for steroids, but I wonder if anyone knows what the NCAA policy is on the matter and what ND does above and beyond this.....

In the book "Under the Tarnished Dome" there were steroid allegations while Holtz was at the helm. I know it is controversial about just how much journalistic integrity that book had, but I would think that ND would be even more vigilant about steroid abuse after that........

(Having said that, the OL's recent woes certainly has more than one cause: strength & conditioning, coaching, recruiting, etc......)
jimmy two-times | Email | Homepage | 03.12.08 - 8:38 am | #

While it dates back to June 2006, here is an interesting article regarding NCAA standards for drug testing:

http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-foo.../ 060906aab.html

I have wondered myself why we rarely hear of college football players juicing, knowing it often starts in high school.
OC mj | Email | Homepage | 03.12.08 - 12:40 pm | #

Thank OC - good article.
jimmy two-times | Email | Homepage | 03.12.08 - 2:40 pm | #

I need a new post..suffering from withdraw....
Diese987 | Email | Homepage | 03.13.08 - 1:29 am | #

Lush

One final comment--my response was also driven by the stattement that the offenses of yesteryear were not high-powered compared to today's offenses. The 1930 and 1949 teams are clear proof to the contrary. Moreover, in 1950, Leahy did not suddenly forget how to coach scoring only 138 points after scoring 360 in 1949. BTW, in 2005 and 2006, ND scored 810 points (exclusive of bowl games), the highest amount in any two consecutive years in ND history.

The 1930 and 1949 teams were 2 of the greatest teams ever. They were MNC because they so outclassed the other teams. I would like to see the average points an NCAA team put up both of those years. I don't think it would be close to the scores now. Some of the top teams now average in the high 40s in scoring. I would doubt that Leahy's 138 points in 1950 would put that team in the bottom half of offense. I would like to find out for sure somehow. I agree with you that 2005 and 2006 were high powered offenses.
GB | Email | Homepage | 03.13.08 - 1:41 am | #

...any way you slice it...ND was 119th out of 119 Division 1 teams in total offense last season. I find it difficult to understand how anyone can attempt to cloak this degradation of a once proud football team with statistics from 60-70 years ago...or ask the pertinent question of "why"...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.13.08 - 10:03 am | #

Jim:
Why? Because posters said the 2007 ND team was the worst in ND's history. Because posters said the teams of yesteryear did not have high-powered offenses. Because even Rockne and Leahy had down years. Because posters said that after winning 19 games in his first two years and being non-competitve in only two games while scoring 810 points, CW could not coach in 2007, canot develop talent, was going to lose a slew of verbal commitments and should be fired.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.13.08 - 8:57 pm | #

...well...119th out of 119 teams in total offense does give one pause for concern/reflection...no matter what Leahy did during the War...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.14.08 - 11:08 am | #

Jim:
We don't disagree there but that is not the point to which I was responding. My post of last night outlines the points to which I was responding. BTW, many of the so-called ND "fans" of today are similar to some of the "fans" of yesteryear who screamed to have Rockne, Leahy, Ara and Devine fired after a bad season or even a few bad games.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.14.08 - 6:48 pm | #

...compared to the fans who are rightly concerned about the "why" of last year...the "fire Weis" contingent is as miniscule as it is irrelevant...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.15.08 - 12:33 pm | #

Jim:
What really is so difficult to understand about the why of last year? Was there poor coaching? Sure. Who has said there wasn't? But anyone who believes that 2007 was due simply or even primarily to poor coaching is badly mistaken in my view. In his first two seasons, Weis was not competitive in only three games--OSU (second half) in January 2006, USC in 2006 and LSU (second half) in January 2007. Even in 2006 against Michigan, six TOs killed ND. How many teams were competitive against these three teams? Can anyone honestly say ND's talent level was the same or near these three teams? Weis did not suddenly become a bad coach in 2007. Any astute ND fan knew well before 2007 that 2007 was going to be difficult, if not bad, given the substantial lack of experienced talent. Read the most recent Rock Report. When was the last ND team that had a freshman QB handing the ball off or throwing the ball to freshman and sophmore running backs and wide receivers, with 3 OL having almost no prior playing time and 5 of the front 7 on defense also with a dearth of playing time? Name one other team in ND history that had the same situation. I have 80 books on ND football and I am not able to identify such one other team. None of ND's great coaches had to deal with the 85 player scholarship limit except Holtz in his last three years when he struggled compared to his prior eight.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.15.08 - 3:20 pm | #

One more post to add to the 100+.

I am not directly commenting on the coaching or strength & conditioning training. I am not qualified to do that. I may not be qualified to even comment on any of this.

However, what I do question are the comparisons to teams of the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s...maybe even 80s. Is that really valid to today?

As I mentioned earlier, I thought the original post by Pat was interesting.

I also believe we are all suffering from missing football. Maybe the Blue/Gold Game will help, San Diego State on September 6 will really be a cure.
Ted Eberle | Email | Homepage | 03.18.08 - 2:13 pm | #

...lush...ahhh...there was poor coaching...and what are we to do about that?...hold classes?...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 03.20.08 - 1:03 am | #

Jim:
Why do you try to veil your dislike for Weis? Just come straight out and say you can't stand him as a coach. Your post does not substantively begin to respond to the major thrust of my post, which was NOT about coaching. You did not answer any of the questions I posed. Is that because you agree but cannot admit you agree or you do not agree but cannot offer proof to refute what I said. Presumably, you would have said the same thing about Rockne in 1928, Layden in 1935, Leahy in 1950, Ara in 1972 and Holtz in 1994.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 03.21.08 - 9:03 am | #