The upside.. no snowballs in Hawaii...

Pat thanks for explaining, now makes perfect sense... I can totally understand why the worst team in ND history over the last 2 years should be given an option.. They deserve it.
jmc | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:54 pm | #

Just a comment on the Catholic discussion about Holy Days from the previous post: The Eve of the Feast Day is liturgically considered part of the Feast, the same as it is on Sunday. That's why Masses on Saturday evening use the readings for the following Sunday and why it counts for your Sunday obligation. I found it interesting that a feast day or a Sunday is longer than the rest of the days of the week.

The game starts at 3 PM Hawaii time, and since it's not an NBC Notre Dame home game, it should wrap up sometime around dusk.

Traditionally, I believe the eve began at dark, but the current discipline is for the bishop to set the time when the eve begins (and when an anticipatory Mass can be celebrated). In Vegas, I think there is a 2 PM Saturday afternoon Mass that is an anticipatory.

(Many of you may know all this already, but I found it intriguing when I learned it a couple years ago.)

Along those lines, a blessed Feast of the Immaculate Conception to all of you Catholics reading this, one of the eight biggies as documented in the prior post, so get your a$$ to Mass if you haven't already.

My concern for the detrimental effect of the game on my spiritual preparations for Christmas is diminished by my new DVR, a couple weeks old, that already has revolutionized my Saturdays. I'm with OderName on that one.

Having said all that, I can think of no better Christmas gift for me than an ND bowl win!
denver sub | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:06 pm | #

Well, Hallelujah, I can watch the game AND still be a good Catholic...

Weis and the team chose to accept the invitation to a bowl where there will be no ND marching band and almost no fans. If I didn't know any better, I would think that the players wanted a free vacation. On our bill, for a "not inconsiderable" loss, nonetheless. Thanks a lot, guys, and take a lot of pictures for the rest of us.
MNDukesofHazzard | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:19 pm | #

jmc - Where exactly did I say that the team deserved it?
Pat | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:32 pm | #

I believe Jim was using a literary device called 'sarcasm', Pat.
Matt J. | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:39 pm | #

You didn't I just concluded that from Mr. Heisler's comments which you have gleaned from the powers that be... Not your conclusion, but implied from the way the decision was made...

Sorry if you implied I was shooting the messenger... arrow was intended at the message..
jmc | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:43 pm | #

Does anyone else expect Swarbrick or Heisler to opt for the Chewbacca Defense (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php? term=chewbacca+defense) for this decision?

-Domer96
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:43 pm | #

Well, I guess this (Hawaii Bowl) sets us up (the extra practices under top-notch coaching) for a BCS push in 2009.

I'd have to agree with those who've commented here in the past weeks that, indeed, we are only a play or two from being a 9-3, 10-2 team. Of course, that 'play' would be getting someone off of a cross, begging His Dad to pull off the greatest miracle in human history, and making us look like a football team.

Class move, Irish. Anyone who saw a single play of the Alabama-UF NC game last weekend gained perspective of how far removed we are from college football's elite programs. Better that we 're-size' to whatever and wherever the Ivies play, and stay there. A better place for us, and all concerned.

Our days of being worthy of mention with the Alabamas, Michigans, USC's, et al, are 'Gone With The Wind.'
BowlOver | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:58 pm | #

That would be the 3-9 Michigan?
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 2:02 pm | #

Over at ESPN.com, Mark Schlabach is guaranteeing a loss. Why we would accept an invitation to play in what is effectively a home game for UH is certainly something of a puzzler for me ...
John | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 2:14 pm | #

Father Jenkins sent out an e-mail mentioning ND being affected by hard financial times and then accept a bowl where they might actually lose money from? What is there to gain for ND going to this bowl?
suave_andrew | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 2:25 pm | #

how about showing the number one recruit in the country that coming to ND might allow him to play for a hometown crowd sometime in the future...
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 2:32 pm | #

I hope to god that's not their intention: If you come to ND, you can go 6-6 every year and play at home on Christmas Eve.
suave_andrew | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 2:35 pm | #

Kudos to the observer for not even mentioning the Irish accepting a bowl bid... making a statement perhaps??

http://www.ndsmcobserver.com/home/
jmc | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 2:45 pm | #

How come no one was worried about playing a game on January 1--the Feast of Mary, Mother of God, and a Holy Day of Obligation?
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 2:46 pm | #

"how about showing the number one recruit in the country that coming to ND might allow him to play for a hometown crowd sometime in the future..."

That would mean ND plays in the Hawaii Bowl again some time in the next four years. I would hope the program has loftier goals...
kmf | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 2:58 pm | #

I think it is a shame that they will go to a bowl game and not take the band. That's ridiculous and unfair.
BandGeek | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:01 pm | #

1. Good for the kids. They wanted to enjoy a nice trip to Hawaii. I can't blame them. I would have voted the same way.

2. I'm going to be in a lousy mood on Xmas if they don't get it done Xmas eve . . . hmmm.
atepesm | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:03 pm | #

man, the level of ad hominem attacks is just staggering. i used to read this every day for insightful, cogent discussion about nd football. now it's more like 2nd grade recess at times.
yz | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:19 pm | #

the irish played plenty of bowl games on new year's day in the distant past. that is a holy day of obligation also...
muncie | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:25 pm | #

Observations:

1. "The upside.. no snowballs in Hawaii..." coconuts instead ?

2. Churh ... watching an ND football game is church for me

3. getting there ... from Pitsburgh I found a $2,500 airfare ... I will buy a high-end HD TV.

4. In any case ... do go .. Hawai is a spectacular experience even without a ND football game
Peter | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:32 pm | #

yz, we're trying anew to clean it up.

It's gotten really bad this year. It's been very uncharacteristic of the commentary from BGS readers. Going back to the beginning of the blog, we've always enjoyed a fairly respectful tone around here. For some reason, things really degraded this season. We're not going to put up with it.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:37 pm | #

1.) I think BowlOver hit the nail on the head: the Alabama/Florida game was the title game and ND would have surrendered no less than sixty points to either team. They're bigger -- much bigger -- faster, stronger, more cohesive, more creative, better coached, more energetic and way more fun to watch than the Irish have been in the last fifteen years.

2. The problem is that AL and FL aren't the only teams that would blow out ND today. Look at USC, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah. I could tolerate ND being weaker than a couple of teams. I don't understand is how we became this weak.

3.) Our lines are terrible, in comparison to any of the teams listed. Some of this is coaching in the sense that our guys aren't aware of how to run-block or pass-block. A lot of it is in the players, though. They have to figure out how to improve as a unit.

4.) I do think it's great that the university asked the players where they wanted to go. I think that is fair and appropriate and indicative of the kind of place Notre Dame is.
teo | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:48 pm | #

"how about showing the number one recruit in the country that coming to ND might allow him to play for a hometown crowd sometime in the future..."

That would mean ND plays in the Hawaii Bowl again some time in the next four years. I would hope the program has loftier goals...

It's easier to add a game in Hawai'i to the schedule, as it does not count against the maximum of 12 (designed to encourage teams to make the trip out there). I could see us doing it in the next five-ten years.
DJ | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:49 pm | #

jay, i agree that it's not been the norm. it gets hard to wade thru a post with sometimes 100+ comments trying to find the good stuff when alot of it is sniping back and forth.

i applaud your effort, both in posting and in policing. good luck.
yz | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:50 pm | #

Better discussion:

Will (should) Jappy Oliver be back next year?
Chris | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:53 pm | #

For once, the BGS writers blew the headline. This would have been the perfect spot to break out "Mecka-lecka-hi-mecka-hiney-ho" of Pee Wee's Playhouse fame. It's not really Hawaiian, but this isn't really a bowl game either.
Big Red | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:53 pm | #

Jay I hope it does get cleaned up. The postings are very good, but some of the commentary (like JMC at the begining of this thread) are inane.
JP | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:56 pm | #

good point, big red, but i have no problem with anyone quoting der bingle at christmas time.
yz | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:57 pm | #

now that i think about it, it's too bad the crosby clan didn't go into milk/cheese production. der bingle dairy would have been an awesome name for the company.
yz | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 4:01 pm | #

Dang. I will try to be better. Sometimes I feel the need to lash out against the negativity!

I know two wrongs don't make a right, but man, it feels good sometime.

Go Irish!
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 4:05 pm | #

I_W,

I totally understand.

I would like to think that how we post on this or other online forums reflects on the university as well. We often judge other schools in part by their fans (tOSU, for example).

If my tone ever reflects poorly on me or the university, perhaps I need to think twice before clicking OK.

6-6, 0-12 or 12-0, I will love Notre Dame.
Kris | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 4:08 pm | #

I think the personal attacks are spleen-venting induced by not only one, but two miserable seasons in a row and the huge disappointment that came for many with the "vote of confidence" issued by our AD. Also, I am not the most prolific commenter, but I've been here a long time and I do notice a lot of new handles and I imagine many of those folks have turned to BGS as a forum to vent the pent up rage. It's not the best use of bandwidth, but I get where it comes from.

That said, I hope BGS keeps its traditional balanced coverage of Notre Dame football. I have always felt that the deserved criticisms were as welcome here as the post-victory chest bumping. I predict rough times ahead, so it would be good to prepare for more snippiness. I am trying to imagine what any ND forum would look like after a loss to Hawaii .... (shudder).
Thundershaker | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 4:30 pm | #

We've got no problem with people expressing their opinions on the state of ND -- positive, negative, or otherwise -- and we're even more enthusiastic about keeping the comments open when they're well thought-out and/or humorous.

But we'll have no tolerance for mindless ranting, no tolerance for intentional trolling, and no tolerance for personal attacks. We've seen all of that this year, and it makes us sad, because 90% of the posters here are good peeps.

Okay, enough of us laying down the law. Carry on.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 4:49 pm | #

Anyone ever had a Puka Dog? It's a hot dog wrapped in a bun, served with garlic lemon sauce and tropical relishes like mango, pineapple, etc. It sounds disgusting but it's by far the best hot dog I've ever had. They're only available in Kauai I believe.

On a more serious note: I wonder if Weis will be taking any surfing lessons while he's out there.
kmf | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 6:04 pm | #

Maybe we should play the Hawaiians for a trophy. The golden Shill-lei-la? The Ol' Kona bucket? We can keep it in the North Beach basement, Big Red.
indy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 6:17 pm | #

I'm glad for the bowl game. Football season is limited, so I'll take any chance I get to watch the Irish.

I wish the team was good enough to play a major bowl, but the program is down, and might continue to be. I agree with the poster who mentioned how far 'Bama, Florida and others are in front of ND.

It's not all coaching either, it seems as though the people who say Irish recruits are overrated might be right. I hope that is not the case.
www.southbendblarney.com | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 6:21 pm | #

I hate to reiterate this, but I don't think we can argue that Notre Dame does not have the ability to recruit talented kids like the Floridas, USC, etc. I just looked at Florida's team statistics and Justin Trattou (a one time verbal commit to ND) is 11th on the team in tackles and started at defensive end in the SEC championship game. Although these are not stellar numbers, he is only a sophmore and is on the NUMBER 2 ranked football team in America. (Also see Greg Little).
Point is ND is obviously able to get ND players, and no one has exemplified this better then Charlie Weis himself. As hard of a worker as he is (and he most definitely is one) there just seems to be a little bit of lack of development. One may wonder what kind of an impact a guy liek Trattou might have on this team?
On the other hand if you consider the losses of Chris Little, Omar Hunter (who most likely would have been able to contribute this year), and Justin Trattou in the trenches who knows what kind of team they might be?
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 6:43 pm | #

Give the team credit for intelligence.
Hmmmmm let me see, Detroit, Shreveport or Hawaii.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 8:20 pm | #

It's such a bizare time for a game, (8pm est christmas eve) that a choice will have to be made, For starters, My kids don't understand:
1.)why i watch ND football ("they never win")
2.) I don't have a mac. ("you're always rebooting and fixing")

Now to spend Xmas eve infront of the tube,.........could be a major hit.

the line is drawn.

What would George Bailey do?
Gabby | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:04 pm | #

Well obviously the players wanted Hawai'i, but if the balance sheet was really a concern it would have been Shreveport.

That being said... WIN.
Win the game. In all this talk of "do they deserve it," or "we're not there yet," everyone has missed an important GIANT ELEPHANT sitting in the comments section (and I'm not talking about Weis.) We're still currently in the throws of the worst bowl losing streak in history.
Say what you want about getting into bowls they don't deserve, they have had PLENTY of opportunities to win. Everyone wants to mention OSU, but have we forgotten NC State?
So in the spirit of the recent "let's keep it decent and intelligent" requests... can we all agree what's done is done. Go to Hawai'i and win! jmc, j r/b, jim masterson, voice, pat, jay, everyone, the Irish are heading to Don Ho country and they need the support of every fan to help win this game.
Mark | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:21 pm | #

@ Gabby:

George Bailey would move to California, where the game starts at 5 and can be part of the usual trip to a restaurant for Christmas Eve dinner.
John | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:22 pm | #

A restaurant for dinner? Only if the Bumpus hounds get the turkey.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:01 pm | #

The coach will be able to feel a different kind of heat out in the 50th state...If Samardzija was still around he would probably be out "catching" some waves.

I don't have any problem with ND going halfway across the Pacific to play. Concord De La Salle went there to play a regular season high school game. Then again they had the streak...I wish ND football could be more like some of the powerhouse HS football programs like the Spartans, Brophy Prep in Phoenix, Saint Ignatius
in Cleveland.

As a family who does not have cable TV, I'm curious about those Channel Surfing and Justin TV sites. Do those sites carry any potential nasty bugs/spyware when you have to dl their software? I end up watching away ND cable games in the fitness room of the apartment complex. (I was able to catch a little of the College Cup yesterday there. I'm so tired of NC getting the home field advantage. They need to move the College Cup site around. Maybe to a warmer location in December.) Anyway, on Christmas eve, I would rather spend it at home with wife, child and ND football on the laptop.
Thank you!
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:44 pm | #

So let's see:

- No band
- A location that's very hard for alumni to get to
- Pretty much literally a home game for our opponent
- The university is losing money on the deal
- And now this:

Notre Dame will not have “three weeks worth” of practices (about 15 overall) for the bowl, as often advertised. The Irish practiced this past Saturday and Sunday (Dec. 6-7), but won’t be on the field again until this Friday (Dec. 12) and Saturday (Dec. 13) while the staff is on the road recruiting.

Final exams for the fall semester will take place from Dec. 15-19. According to Notre Dame football media relations director Brian Hardin, the Irish will attempt to get in a workout on Dec. 18 – depending on the exam schedules of all the players – and then have a walk-through session on the Dec. 19 before departing for Honolulu that day. It will be a nine-hour flight, with one stopover to refuel.

The team then will have four practices from Dec. 20-23 in Aloha Stadium (50,000). Interspersed will be a trip to Pearl Harbor, a visit to a local hospital and two nights at a luau (expected to be the 20th and 21st).

Somebody screwed something up.
John | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:45 pm | #

The march is on
No brain or braun
Can stop the charge of fighting men!

Loud rings the cry
Of grim defy
Of hard attack
Let loose again!

Oh it's the hike hike hike to victory
The call to rise and strike!

For Notre Dame men are winning
When Notre Dame hears hike hike hike!

Hark to the cheering
Songs rising high.
Hark to the roar
As her ranks go marching by.

Shoulder to shoulder
Chanting her glorious name.

Burn high your fires
And sing along for Notre Dame!

HIKE!
IndyEsq | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:48 pm | #

Four practices and two nights at a luau?!? And people were yelling at me earlier? How does a football team win a game with a 2:1 practice-to-luau ratio?! Pina coladas and all-you-can-eat roasted pork, last time I checked, don't win you many football games.

@IndyEsq: You might also try a "Down the Line" and a "When the Irish Backs Go Marching By" to get the O-Line and running game going.
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 1:02 am | #

Matt '09: Exactly. Talk about a recipe for disaster ...
John | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 1:10 am | #

It's been implied above, but the one thing this game does that the other locations wouldn't have is get us exposure to recruits in a different area (not just the 5-star Charlie is after this year). We are playing in Texas next year, we play in Michigan every year, and with some decent high school players coming from Hawai'i to USC, Oregon and others, it couldn't hurt...
...I'm just looking for some positives other than a vacation for the team, which isn't much of a positive at all.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 1:48 am | #

While I'm as displeased with this season as the next person, I'm not sure shitting, pissing, and throwing objects literally or figuratively at and on the team, its coaches, and life in general is what ND is all about. At least for me it isn't.

PS...congrats to the women's soccer team for a great season, again.
Jim '72 | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 7:59 am | #

"Waking The Echoes" (to the tune of "Hike, Notre Dame")

(I'm not this much of a pessimist, I think keeping Charlie was the only alternative, I don't mind that the team is going to Hawaii on Xmas eve, and I didn't think the snowball thing was that big of a deal, but what the hell...I read IndyEsq's post and couldn't resist)

The fix is in
So let’s begin
To raise a call for Charlie’s head

It makes me cry
Each time I spy
Our O-line miss those blocks again

Oh it’s a long, long way to victory
But Maui’s nice and warm
So Notre Dame Men keep losing
And Charlie Weis weather’s the storm

Hark to the snowballs
See how they fly
Hark to the groans
As Syracuse goes marching by

Athletic Directors
Scheduling crappy games
Let’s burn a couch
And wake the death of Notre Dame

CRAP!
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 9:15 am | #

Up, Notre Dame men,
Answer the cry!

Gathering foe-men,
Fling to the sky!

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Brave hosts advancing,
Challenge Her name,
March to the battle Notre Dame!

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

And when the Irish backs go marching by,
The cheering thousands shout their battle cry,
For Notre Dame men are marching
into the game,
Fighting the fight for you, Notre Dame!

And when that Irish line goes smashing through,
They'll sweep the foe-men's ranks away!

When Notre Dame men fight for Gold and Blue,
Then Notre Dame men will win that day!

FIGHT!
IndyEsq | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 9:42 am | #

And for the record, I know the words, didn't look them up. From a few years of Friday home weekend open rehearsals, Friday home weekend dinner's in South Dining Hall, ND in review on gameday mornings, etc. etc. Can't recite them without singing it in my head.
IndyEsq | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 9:47 am | #

I don't get ESPN here in Canada....Man, I hope my local sports bar is open on Christmas Eve. Haven't quite told my wife yet that I'll be at a bar on that Holy day, any suggestions?????
All I want for Christmas is a ND bowl win. Go Irish!!!
VicPaul | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 10:50 am | #

Vic,

Just surprise her with an early Christmas trip to Hawai'i! Then schedule her for a spa treatment the afternoon of the 24th and you can sneak off to the game and see it live!

No, I don't know of a Canadian bank you can rob. Why?
ND67AquaJock | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 11:00 am | #

2 luaus of all you can eat pork and poke will go straight to the fupa, thereby creating an incredibly unstable center of gravity not condusive to surfing. Gameplanning therefore regains top spot on the priority list; genuis schematic diagrams remain dry; fupa avoids risk of harpoon puncture; clausen's tan renews confidence; Irish win 34-21; I get argyle socks for christmas.
red | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 11:59 am | #

I hope none of the players pull a "Greg Brady" and get lost in the surf...
BrianND96 | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 12:43 pm | #

By the way, the FUPA comments are completely uncalled for. Yes, CW is obese, but there's no call for that kind of 6th grade humor. In all sincerity, though, I hope that his contract calls for him to get healthy. Seriously, can't he put a treadmill in the office and gameplan on the treadmill? or a recombinant bike? With all those trainers and whatnot it is truly a wonder he is so out of shape. We don't need the coach dying on the sideline. ND is a pedestrian campus, for heaven sakes.
I truly believe a coach must lead by example. A boss says "go." A leader says "Let us go."
BrianND96 | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 12:48 pm | #

I do not mind one bit that ND is going to Hawaii like some fans do, but the "two nights at a luau" made me laugh really hard. It's almost like a horrible joke. Honestly, think about it. It looks like they're not going to practice much, but they will spend two nights at a luau. It should probably anger me in some way, but it really just tickles my funny bone quite a bit.

And BrianND96, I could not agree more about the fat jokes. Every time I read or hear one (always made by people who, if asked, I'm sure would profess to be mature adults), I can't help but wonder when I traveled back to the 2nd grade. Criticize Charlie's coaching all you want, but leave his weight (and his family, I might add) out of it.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 12:56 pm | #

I personally don't mind fat humor. I used to be 300+ but jersey-style ribbing from my Uncle Ramos eventually got me to lose 80 pounds. I actually thank him for calling me out on it. To each his own, and if I knew what a FUPA was in 2nd grade I'd question the crew I ran with.
red | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 1:35 pm | #

Great Post:

"It's such a bizare time for a game, (8pm est christmas eve) that a choice will have to be made, For starters, My kids don't understand:
1.)why i watch ND football ("they never win") ..."

1. 8 pm is perfect time for a game... night and not a late start ... perfect time to drink and channel surf to other sports during timeouts etc.

2. Christmas eve ... get your priorities straight ...nothing interferes with watching ND football ... Church ?... watching ND football is Church to me

3. "never win" ... unforunatly true... I was once asked by a 2003 graduate 'to be' the difference between ND then and when I went (ARA)... answer ... we did not lose football games and usualy crushed those when we won.
Peter | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 3:06 pm | #

We lost 6 total games during my 4 years in the 70s. Those were the days!
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 8:05 pm | #

Yes, Dana, and Ara had 120 players on scholarship, too.
pangborn77 | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 10:01 pm | #

Pete and Urban are doing it now with 85 scholarships.
GB | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 10:45 pm | #

I agree with the ones on the fat jokes. I don't like CW's coaching one bit but talking about his weight is a real cheap shot. Also calling others names or insulting them is immature and does not address the intelligent critiques we are (supposedly) trying to make.
GB | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 10:51 pm | #

Pete has a slightly higher winning percentage{ over .850} than Ara .836 {95-17-4} as well , with 85 scholarships.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 12.10.08 - 8:58 pm | #