Weis should be given next year to win 9-10 games. People forget that there were no expectations for the team when Weis took over.

He proceeded to beat Michigan in his first year as coach, when Michigan was ranked in the top 5. They subsequently tanked and ended the season 7-4 (I think), and so people dismiss that win.

In that same season Weis nearly beat the returning national champion USC.

Last year was a rebuilding year. This year is a transition year. Next year, when our Offensive line is JR/So heavy, you will see an improved running game.

Additionally, I believe people don't realize the impact of missing Brian Smith and Michael Floyd from the Syracuse game.

People, please be rational. While the loss was bad, Weis still has this program going in the right direction.
Chris | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:04 pm | #

anyone in any sport on any level will tell you that all they ask of their coach is to put them in a position to win the game. nd was in position to win in at least 3 of their 5 losses. charlie weis has been far from perfect. there is a litany of problems, with the entire program though. weis is certainly not the first. when the players begin to execute, eliminate killer miscues at inopportune times, nd will be a good team again. i am very encouraged about the future of this team, after listening to an excerpt of corwin brown's press conference on rivals. the players are showing more character than even last year.

of course, like any fan, i was optimistic about this season. that optimism was premature. this team is simply too young and inexperienced to execute at crucial times.

DO NOT FIRE CHARLIE WEIS AT THE END OF THIS YEAR.
patrick | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:06 pm | #

(1) Thank goodness there is some sanity in the ND world. Today I give thanks for BGS.

(2) I like aggressive; I like going for it on 4th down because you know you'll get it, or the score will drive stakes through the bad guys' hearts. But please, please, please, if the option is going for it on 4th down to seal the win around mid field, versus punting it away and making the other team drive the length of the field, unless the defense is just putrid, PUNT THE DAMN BALL!!

(3) I'm not at all sure Weis is the right guy, but . . . he's the right guy for next season. The panic needs to stop . . . and he needs a new o-line coach.
David | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:23 pm | #

Weis cannot relate to the college player. There is no excitement and energy in his teams. I knew his 2nd year in when Michigan came to town and we got torched. Weis needs to go. Keeping him around is only lengthening the inevitable. Weis seems like a nice guy and I hope the best for him in the pros, but he can't relate
true2nd | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:27 pm | #

Nice Buzzcocks reference...

Seems like people keep forgetting
this year's Stanford game when talking about folding in the 4th quarter. In retrospect, think of it as a foreshadowing.

I would actually keep an eye on jim Harbaugh as a potential candidate in 2010...not that we want to be Stanford again...
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:31 pm | #

I completely agree with the article. I attended the Navy game and was in awe of the way Weis handles time outs with the offense on the field. Rather than having the entire team on the sidelines and keeping them energized and focused, Weis elects to just bring Clausen over to the sideline and give him some sort of "Xs and Os pep talk." Meanwhile, the rest of the offensive unit simply sits in the middle of the field doing and thinking about God only knows what. I felt like ths epitomized Weis's approach to college football and the reason pro-style failed approach.
Joseph | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:34 pm | #

Perhaps the better question...
Which season was worse: ND 2007 or ND 2008?
kmf | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:38 pm | #

The players seem to relate to Harbaugh
and did well at U. of San Diego.
Gold Wave | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:43 pm | #

I really liked Charlie when he first came, but recently my view has changed. I stuck with him through last year and most of this year. I guess I was just trying to deny the truth. I think Charlie not being a college football player has really hurt him. His intelligence seems like a hinderance. I do believe he loves Notre Dame and all it stands for. But sometimes that is not enough. Just look at the reality of the situation of what happened last weekend. After four years you have to be able to beat Syracuse, end of discussion. Wanting to be great and being great are two different things. He has the heart of a lion but just in no way understands the working mind of a 19 year old football player at Notre Dame. That is the sad reality of ND Football the program is at an all time low right now. I dont hear anyone screaming we are a 32 point dogs against USC this weekend. Everyone just figures that is how poorly we compare to them. I think the time to take a stand is now. One more year is what we all said last year. I for one am not ready for the embarrassment of being 6-6 next year with a very easy schedule. I wish Charlie well, but he is not the answer to the ND football legacy. I just hope if this is it for him, we find a coach without all the circus we had with the last two picks. I hope we at least score this weekend. I still have nightmares about Miami taking us to the woodshed with Faust. GODSPEED to Notre Dame Football
Tony | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:46 pm | #

WHAT A MISERABLE WEEK. BETWEEN THE ECONOMY, THE WEATHER AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY, LAST WEEKEND'S INEXCUSABLE LOSS, I'VE BEEN A BEAR FOR 4 DAYS STRAIGHT.
I TOO HAVE GIVEN UP ON CHARLIE. HAVING SAID THAT, I AGREE WITH THE NOTION THAT HE SHOULD BE GIVEN ONE MORE YEAR. SINK OR SWIM, WITH SWIM DEFINED AS 9-3 OR BETTER - WITH DISCERNABLE IMPROVEMENT ALL THROUGH THE SEASON!

P.S. HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO YOU AMERICANS.
oakvilleirish | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:47 pm | #

what if charlie was demoted to recruiter and we hired a REAL college coach? That way, we keep who we recruit because charlie does a good job ib that department, and we get a REAL coach that can coach to their potential (or even exceed it). it makes sense to me. Nobody loses that way. I dont think Charlie's would say no to his base salary of 600,000 if he were able to keep it with the condition of strictly recruiting.
CommonSense | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:50 pm | #

...weis has to make some coaching changes...Haywood is gone...Latina should be as the word "tragicomic" describes the offensive line for the last two years...whoever is coaching the cornerbacks needs lessons, as I believe there's freshman and sophomore talent...the running back position needs an infusion of talent...and from what I've seen of Cierre Wood...his 5-star designation is one or two stars too high...

...but most of all...someone - head coach or assistants - need to pump up this team emotionally...they are too businesslike for college football...and have been in a recession for the last 8 quarters (calendar, not game)...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 12:56 pm | #

KFM - I'd say 2008 is worse. We knew 2007 would be bad (maybe not *that* bad), but we had hope for 2008. About the only thing you can point to as better is that our kicker is more reliable. Oh boy!

Sure - we've given up fewer sacks (mainly as Clausen seems willing to take the incompletion), but the o-line is not markedly better than the 2007 edition. Coming into the year, I just couldn't get excited about returning 80% of the worst O-line in history. I'm not very excited about next year's prospects either. Color me jaded.

Collectively, the defense seems better, but are left hung out to dry by the pathetic running game. The front 7 play isn't great - how many sacks do we have? But they're not losing games for us, generally. I'm not sure why some of the frosh DL (red shirting be damned) aren't playing - I'd think a couple series off a game for the starters would make the unit more likely to be fresh for the whole game.

The offense is offensive. To us. Pawlus seems to have cloned himself onto Clausen (and that's *not* a good thing, having suffered through part of his tenure myself). The happy feet. The poor decisions. The locking onto a primary target.

Tate and Floyd are the bright spots for the O. Duval must be getting in on that Pawlus brain dump, as he's been largely invisible. Grimes at least works hard, and probably has production exceeding his (limited compared to the younger receivers) talent.

This running back committee might have been a good idea if the OL would actually block. I think Tate has our longest run of the year (24 yd?) which is poor considering each of the 3 RBs are supposedly game changers. I don't think I've ever seen one in space.

That said, the mantra/cliche is correct. Football games are won in the trenches. Not sure why I had my hopes up for an 8 win season given the return of 80% of The Worst O-Line Ever, and a DL that everyone thought would be weak. Given that we probably lose our LT next year, I don't hold out much hope for our OL to be markedly improved next year. I have no idea what the DL's prospects for next year are, so I'll assume there's not cause for rampant optimism.

Bottom line, maybe we win 7 next year, regardless of coach.
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:01 pm | #

ND's 2007 season was unquestionably worse than UM's 2008 season.

Why?

Because Weis was in the third year of his tenure, and Rodriguez was in his first.

It's much easier to give a mulligan in the first year than in the third.

Last year hurt so bad because there was a feeling that there was a downward trajectory forming.

At UM, this could be just a year of growing pains with a new offense and three simply awful quarterbacks.
NDDL99 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:03 pm | #

Jim, Corwin Brown coaches the DBs. You are dead on about Latina, no development. Mendoza needs to go too, Powlus needs to be re-assigned and Weis should be made to take a refresher course about ND history and why we are called the Fighting Irish! Bring Lou in for a pregame pep talk at USC. Weis shows no emotion, he walks off the field at the half as if he was walking away from an all you can eat buffet.
DBQB12 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:05 pm | #

So let me get this straight: the rationale that I've read about a million times was okay to fire a coach before his contract was done if he was golfing instead of recruiting. I agree with that, btw, and ND is in the last year of that cycle.

What's the new rationale for firing Weis before his contract is up? It's not recruiting, as best as I can tell. He went from 3 wins last year to 6 this year - losing several leads in games that could have been won - and with the talent returning, it wouldn't surprise me to see another 3 wins added to the tally next year.

Or perhaps 9-3 really isn't good enough for the Nation.
denver sub | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:07 pm | #

...weis get's another year to "get it"...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:14 pm | #

denver sub

Don't forget SDSU, Stanford and Navy this year could well have been losses, holding to the form of losing late leads.

-Domer96
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:15 pm | #

And yes "Or perhaps 9-3 really isn't good enough for the Nation." Considering it came from the head coach's mouth.

-Domer96
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:16 pm | #

Whether Charlie keeps his job or is fired, I will be okay with either decision. I don't have many positive feelings for him (as a coach...I still think he's a good guy) after the Syracuse loss but I also understand the merits of giving him a no-excuses year with skilled and mature talent. I am still appalled at how much trouble he seems to have getting his teams to play with any emotion, and I think that is going to be his biggest hurdle.

Also, I don't want Urban Meyer anywhere near Notre Dame and anyone who thinks that having Lou Holtz involved in any capacity will fix things is crazy. Meyer is a jackass and there's a reason Holtz is analyzing games rather than coaching them.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:21 pm | #

i just hope that swarbrick and fr. are more rational than most of the people on this board.

calm down.

and in response to those who say he cannot relate to kids, then why does he recruit so well? the head coach does not need to be head cheerleader, he needs to recognize who needs the appropriate guidance at the time. weis should and probably does, rely on the likes of corwin brown and his seniors to get the team emotionally charged throughout the week. and when all of a sudden does emotion win games. play football. execute your assignment. BLOCK. that wins football games. not motivational speeches.
conner | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:25 pm | #

Lack of talent and/or experience is one thing (which led largely to the 3-9 season last year). Lack of coaching ability or team emotion is entirely different. To lose a game late by blowing a late lead happens in football. To lose two games this way is upsetting. To lose three games this way is unacceptable.

My expectations were an 8 win season this year, then compete for the national championship in 2009. More than 8 wins would have been above expectations, and below 8 wins is below expectations. 8 wins was very much within grasp, but these three losses have set the team back mentally.

Can the coach bring this team back from this? If not, let's move on.

USC and a bowl game should tell the tale. I still think ND should go to a bowl game at 6-6, just to see if it is worth bringing Charlie back.
Domer97 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:25 pm | #

To Domer 96: and UNC, Pitt, and Cuse could have been wins. That's how the progression of a team that is learning to win goes. Thanks for attributing my source, which I didn't, but if you were going to do that, you probably should point out that his message was to a senior-laden team.

But my main question is the rationale for firing of the posters. I had been buying that "ND is different" line, and that assuming the coach wasn't leaving the house empty, then they'd give a coach five years to see if he could figure it out.
denver sub | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:31 pm | #

Domer - well said.

my goal for this team was actually 7-5 and a bowl win. that being said, i had no idea the schedule would set up as favorable as it did. with Michigan, Purdue, Washington, San Diego State, and Syracuse all having awful seasons (and Stanford continuing to rebuild), i was hopeful of more than a 1-5 record against Navy, MSU, UNC, BC, Pitt, and USC.

all i want now is for them to put up a fight against SC. show me something, anything - then win a freakin' bowl game so that streak officially ends.

i guess i'm for Weis being retained as well, but if SC wins 62-0 and ND gets handled in another Bowl game, those feelings will likely change.
Schultz | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:32 pm | #

I'd just like to say that this is a pretty good & civil discussion on a difficult choice that means a lot to all of us. Thanks for that, BGS commenters. Carry on.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:34 pm | #

Really? Michigan's 3-9 season was worse than ND's 3-9 season? Let's see, Michigan never got shutout 38-0 twice, half the season we were starting a walk-on QB due to lack of depth and injuries, we were implementing a new offensive system, and despite a OL with one returning starter and having a former DL start at LG, we had multiple 100+ yd running games. ND this season, even with a star-studded, everyone returning OL, has virtually no ground game. We were competitive in the majority of our games and there was progress; much more than ND could say.
West Texas Blue | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:36 pm | #

I'm back in the states for Thanksgiving, meaning I will finally get to see a game IN FULL - first time since MSU that I get to see it in its entirety.

The thing that will be a deal maker for me is the mentality of this team. If we come out fired up against our big rival and fight them for 3 quarters, but ultimately lose by ca. 21 pts... I'm fine with that. I just want to see that this team has not given up on CW.

I know that one must read players' comments within the context of an entire season's worth of interviews, but to hear one of our studs prevaricating about "its not up to me who coaches this team" really makes me raise an eyebrow.

There is a significant part of me that still thinks CW deserves another year. but if the team shows a lack of fire and heart against SC, I will consider that a step in the right direction.

I am in no way suggesting that it was better under Ty, but even he was able to get his teams jacked up to play USC - and we usually were able to hang with them for 2 full quarters before the depth of their talent became too much to handle (I think I remember halftime scores of 10-7 and 14-7... obviously the second halfs weren't so favorable).

Come on Charlie. Get the boys jacked up! show me you can do it!

Our lady of victory...
domer03inflorence | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:42 pm | #

I am completely on the fence with the firing or giving CW one more year. Saturday night he was definitely fired if I was AD but then I got to thinking about the 2005 season and him bringing this team back. Was Brady Quinn ready to have a breakout season, or was it CW? Where did Jeff Samardzjia come from? Who knew Mo Stovall would end up playing in the pros? Was this just coincidence or did CW make that big of a difference? Fast forward four years and I am not sure. We hung with OSU most of the game, no matter what ESPN want us to believe. Then we were totally destroyed against Michigan USC and LSU in '06. Has ND really sunk to a mid major team that can't play with the big boys, or is there that big of a coaching difference. I can't answer these questions, but I hope that Saturday night this team comes ready to play and maybe we could pull off an upset. Stranger things have happened.
To any Michigan fan that posts here you got beat by Applachian State and Toledo the last two years. Please go away.
Jerry | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:44 pm | #

By the way, I don't comment often, but I would like to say that most of the time, I learn more from the BGS comments (not even considering the great posts of the bloggers) than I do from most other blogs (posts and comments combined).

So a shout out to all of you regular posters, and have fun at the Coliseum on Saturday Jay. Worst case, you should fare better than most of the Christians did at the Roman version.

(Btw, I do think ND is different.)
denver sub | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:45 pm | #

denver

Great - so we are 3 and 3 in games we coulda shoulda mighta won.

These kids all came from winning programs in HS. I do not buy them needing 6 games to learn how to win.

The fact is we have had substandard line play for 2 consecutive years. Frankly, I do not see cause for optimism for next year's lines.

Domer96
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:47 pm | #

All Charlie needs is to learn how to relate to kids. Obviously someone here will ask why I said that. At the beginning of the season last year, Demetrius Jones starts at QB which by the way he spent a whole year in the gymn to get a chance to compete for the job, he gets the job, less than two quarter he was replaced for good. Jimmy Clausen comes with a bone spur, still in rehab to not only replace DJ but also Evan sharpley who by the way was in the system for 3 years. If I was on that team I will have a hard time getting motivated to go to the gymn or learning the system since it is clear the coach has decided who plays or not regardless of the hard work.
Charlie needs to beleive in his kids, the running game and getting excited with them when they make a play. Do you guys remember Corwin Brown getting excited when a kid made a play last year, look at the defense now. Those guys on defense they play with heart, the offense not so much.
USC is great but if we commit to the running game with Robert hughes, armando allen, jonas gray and aldridge and the defense playing their part we should be fine. This is a game where kids that are playmakers will separate themselves from the rest.If Clausen, hughes, or any of them get hurt or show flashes of not playing their part, replace them no need to let the rest of the team suffer there is always a next guy. Joe Montana wasn't supposed to play and he is one of the greats. Go Irish beat the Trojans
Jean | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:53 pm | #

why specifically is Meyer a jackass? because he won at florida? he did not create the academic standards at UF, they have been lower for some time.

if he was here,( and he wont be) then he is smart enough to know what he can get thru the system or not.

if he was a ND and chasing recruits until signing day, everyone here would love his tenacity.

guy has won everywhere and never in trouble with NCAA.
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 1:56 pm | #

I am amazed at the idea of even debating 3-9. It sucks. So does 6-6, especially with a blowout USC loss. I am generally not one for moral victories, but my moral is so low right now that I'd take one vs USC.

It seems to make a lot of sense to give CW another year, but let me ask this: would he really be fired if they go 8-4 next year? The year after...Somehow, I almost feel like this is the only reasonable year to fire him, since with the talent he has and the depth he is building, it seems likely he can go 8-4 for awhile, driving us further into mediocrity. Or maybe he'll get lucky and win an NC somewhere along the line before heading back to that 8-4 realm (kinda like Fulmer).
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:05 pm | #

I believe that Weis should be given the 5 yr commitment. We got a group of guys that know how to win but don't always exhibit it...Another year of seasoning should strengthen that ability to win

As to heart and the desire... I believe that it is there as well, again the young team may not always exhibit it...but heart begins with the fans… and our belief in the team... We all knew that this year was to be a transition year...but the early wins perhaps gave us a false hope.

Maybe we should all ignore the calls for Weis' head, ignore the flames that the sports writers are fanning. It’s the job of writers to cause controversy and sell 'papers'...Listen to #83 and what he said yesterday… take a breath…

So lets hold off on the beheading… give the man next year to make us believe in his team…
Irish Canadian | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:08 pm | #

A winning football coach is like is like the Supreme Court's definition of porn: you know it when you see it. Those that are on the fence about Charlie Weis are just delaying the inevitability. Sooner or later you'll fall to the correct side.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:08 pm | #

Mike,

Regarding Weis's game management - I agree; I don't know what happened. Another example of good game management came in 2005. Stanford got a first and goal with about two minutes left down 30-24. Stanford was either going to score and take the lead or they weren't. They didn't have any timeouts left so if ND stopped them, ND could have kneeled and won the game. If ND didn't stop them, ND needed to drive the length of the field to win. Weis calmly assessed this and started calling timeouts to stop the clock. That way, Stanford was either going to score with two minutes left (which would give ND time to score themselves) or they were going to give the ball back and the game would be over.

Fouts hilariously started criticizing Weis's decision. Stanford scored but ND had plenty of time to drive the length of the field and secure a BCS bid. Where did that Weis go? Sometimes I wonder if the job has gotten to him and he is a bit overstressed.
PJC | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:12 pm | #

If you think ND's football coaching is bad; take a look at this genius.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/bas...1250156& prov=ap
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:20 pm | #

Rather than attack the who's season is worse thing, I want to address a question asked here, why should Weis be fired.

It's rarely discussed, but last year, Weis started a true freshman who was obviously injured (it has been admitted that Clausen was less than 100% last year), rather than three other possible starters. In fact, the decision to go with an injured freshman led to two other QB's transfering out.

Given the poor O-line play, there is no way he should have started Clausen at less than 100%. He had a mobile QB (which can mask some O-line deficiencies) and it could add to the running game.

If you want a reason for him to be fired, that decision is example #1. It was a decision that didn't help the team, forced a young kid to play injured and take a beating, and hurt the depth chart without adding anything to the team.
DCWolverine | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:22 pm | #

This team is no better than last year just playing an easier schedule. 2007=2008. It would seem the little confidence this team had in the beginning was squandered in the second half of the UNC game. We play to lose (reference Sam youngs comment after the last game). Some of this is experience, some coaching. The question is can you afford another season in the tank. This is a business and the CEO has a weak business plan. Let's energize the team with a new coach and new expextations. This team could be 12-0 with the right coach!
valpodoc | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:23 pm | #

The single worst coaching decision Weis ever made was not attempting a FG at the close of regulation in last year's Navy game. I don't care how little faith you have in your kicker, that was inexcusable.

But, unless the AD is hot for Kelly or Kiffin, Weis will get another year.
WCLaw | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:31 pm | #

Can we perchance recruit some 1-3 star kids who can help fire up and motivate the team?

I'd love to see a little more fire from the top-down, but that doesn't appear to be an option at this point.

In any case, thanks to all of the folks that make BGS my favorite corner of the internet. :)
Dave in the Basement | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:31 pm | #

The thing I am most disappointed in is the lack of "nasty" in the team. The defense shows fits and spurts of it, especially Brian Smith and Pat Kuntz, but the offense seems devoid of emotion. There's simply no urgency on the offense, but the defense usually has it. That's what was so shocking about that last Syracuse drive to win the game: the defense never seemed to recognize that that drive could win the game, and they needed to stop Syracuse RIGHT NOW or the game would be lost. The offense has simply looked shell-shocked since the second half of the UNC game, when they should have been pissed off the rest of the year and trying to score on every drive. There is no nasty on the offense, especially in the trenches where it is needed. The Michigan game is the only one that stands out in my mind as having an o-line that was playing mad and focused and determined, playing to avenge the personal insult of the 38-0 ass kicking they endured last year. Where was that the rest of the year? I don't know where this kind of nasty attitude emanates from, whether it is the coaches, the seniors, or the priests on the sideline, but somehow the offense needs to play pissed off the entire game, and force the defense of the other team to quit and give up. Jeff Faine was great at that kind of play, and used to relish the legalized violence of playing o-line. The tone of the game and of the team is set by the play of the men in the trenches, and we need our o-line to be mad but controlled, mean and nasty for 60 min of football.
WyoMike | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:35 pm | #

It rained quite a bit last night in LA. ND has a punchers chance in the game against Southern Cal, if proper planning and motivational techniques not seen seen Mr. Holtz was stalking the sidelines not so many years ago. Just, no green jerseys.
joe | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:36 pm | #

was just on my lunch at work at heard this from Jason Whitlock on sports talk radio.

There is a "high, high profile" coach who wants the Notre Dame job, if Weis gets fired he is Notre Dame's if they want him. That is all he really said, he said his source was rock solid and that was it. Did not go into it any further.
Craig | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:40 pm | #

You guys ever read the "Subway Domer?"
http://subwaydomer.blogspot.com/...almost- got.html
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 2:44 pm | #

belocki:

Perhaps jackass is a little too strong a word for Urban Meyer; I don't know. I'm not in the best mood today. But I will say that any guy who recruits people who steal their dead teammates' credit cards, fire off automatic weapons at people in parking lots to make them "know what it feels like to be scared," and beat and choke their girlfriends...well, I'm certainly not going to be espousing that guy's character. Nobody's perfect, but you're also not going to convince me that Meyer had no idea those guys had character issues while he was recruiting them. Quite honestly, I have no idea how he would recruit at Notre Dame, because ND surely wouldn't allow him to take people like that.

And I don't know if you were one of them, but I find it hilarious that for the past 3-4 years ND fans have been ripping Meyer on a consistent basis for all the shady things that he has done while at Florida, and now that it appears maybe he could come in and save the day everything is okay. It's ridiculous.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:05 pm | #

Folks,

Let's forget about what happened last week and pray ND pulls an upset at USC. It's not impossible.
Sterling James | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:22 pm | #

West Texas Blue--Please list Michigan's progress in the last two games of this season. Was it the multiple concussions suffered by McGuffie? Or the blowout at OSU? Maybe you're referring to the fact that you have a definitive starting QB for '09 that gained some valuable experience this season.

At least ND won a couple games at the end of last year. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that 3-9 is 3-9 any way you slice it.
kmf | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:24 pm | #

I do Jim. I'm him. What do you think?
The Subway Domer | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:24 pm | #

Why is the question of firing Weis still a debatable issue? A blowout loss to SC followed by a likely loss in a third-tier Bowl game should all but ensure his termination. I'm not even sure I'd wait for the Bowl game outcome if I were the ND administration. Send this fraud packing as soon as possible.
tridentum | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:37 pm | #

Craig -

Anything that Whitlock says need to be taken with an ENTIRE block of salt. He is and has been the largest (no pun intended) and the most outspoken Weis hater ever since his boy Ty was fired.

I am so tired of the media's attempt to drive Charlie's firing with the comparisons to Willingham's record. That is equally as racist as Whitlock and Saunders, et al have accused us of being.

While Charlie shouldn't be given a free pass, and I do think how we end the season should matter in the discussion, I believe that Charlie has earned the right to take the team into next year. We'll know quickly whether or not the necessary improvements have been made. The Shark was right. We need to take a deep breath and a step back. There is simply no legitimate comparison with the end of Willingham's tenure.
Irish Right | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:44 pm | #

Irish Right,

Oh trust me I know how much Whitlock hates Notre Dame and he was happy to say he was right. He did say that there is a "high, high profile" coach who wants the job bad. I am not sure why he would make that up and/or lie about that. Just passing along what I heard. Who knows if he is correct, we will find out come Sunday for sure.
Craig | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:50 pm | #

"Emotion" is not what is missing. Holtz's teams never showed emotion on offense. What they showed was ATTITUDE. An attitude of "get the *@#$ out of the way or we'll run you over". This was a constant attitude, even when they might have struggled through parts of a game. This attitude starts with the O-Line. The '08 version has displayed this intermittantly, only when they are experiencing some success (see, e.g., 3rd quarter vs. Purdue; 3rd quarter vs. Navy). All other times it looks as if they are going through the motions. Attitude is missing.

Emotion is too fleeting to be of any use. Emotion too often results in the "look-at-me" celebration for catching a 5 yard pass on 3rd and 4 to get a first down. Attitude is catching that pass, getting up after the tackle, flipping the ball aside, and getting back in the huddle like that was the plan all along. Attitude is firing out to hit the right blocks and opening holes so wide a lineman could get through. And then getting back into the huddle excited for the opportunity to do it all over again. And if not successful on a play or on a series, then it's having that twinkle in the eye that tells everyone that they are just waiting for the chance to do it again, because they know they will.

But attitude does not equal dominating success. The ND defense has attitude, in my opinion. They just lack skill up front and experience on the edges. Those things *should* be cured next year, but even this year it is at least not hard to watch them because the effort and attitude is there.

The ND O-line is hard to watch not because there is no emotion but because there is no *consistent* attitude, no signs that they expect always to beat the snot out of the opposing defense.

I can't help but think this is a coaching thing. The kids are good enough to play this game at a high level. But where does the attitude come from? In the pros it comes from within. At this level, it probably needs to come from external sources, i.e. coaches, whether they are position coaches, coordinators, or the head cheese.
IndyEsq | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:51 pm | #

How has Weis earned the right for another year?
tridentum | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:54 pm | #

So Jason Whitlock knows a high, high profile coach who would be more than willing to coach at ND?

I didn't know Ty wanted to come back.
NDdallas | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 4:01 pm | #

I do think that earlier this year we saw some glimpses of the team playing with emotion and some heart, BUT only when things were going well. I think that's at least a positive step going forward, but not nearly enough. What we need to see, and have not, is the team stepping up and playing with heart even when the stakes are down. Quinn was the absolute embodiment of this in the first Weis years, and that's something the team has lacked since he left. Quinn would take the whole team on his shoulders when the going got tough, and with him gone, Weis can't make up the lack.

As to whether this NEEDS to be something the team has to do, or whether Weis should be doing it better himself as the coach I can't quite tell. Some teams have success with it either way, and it's not a strength of Weis. Here's hoping for taking that extra step forwards next season.
Kyle | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 4:34 pm | #

I've gotta side with West Texas Blue on this one. Michigan's piss poor record this year is much more forgiveable than ND's piss poor record last year. Mike's analysis is way off and perhaps a bit disingenuous.

In 2007, ND was running essentially the same plays on offense that it had run in '05 and '06, while this year, Michigan instituted an entirely new offensive scheme. There was continuity in ND's system, and though the freshmen had to learn the playbook, the returning players knew what was going on. Not so in Ann Arbor. Even though ND didn't return a huge number of starters in '07, the coaches weren't having to teach the entire team a new system, like they had to at Michigan.

Moreover, the players at ND in 2007 had been recruited to play the type of offense ND ran. If I recall correctly, Rich Rodriguez was hired in December or January, meaning he had little time to recruit still-uncommitted players (who would fit in to his type of spread offense) to Michigan.

Finally, Michigan lacked the most important player in a spread offense (or any offense, for that matter): a capable quarterback. Their two starting quarterbacks were completely inept. One of them, Threet, is probably 6-6 and looked like he had two left feet. The other, Sheridan, was a walk-on.

I just find it hard to believe that Michigan's 3-9 is worse than ND's 3-9. Michigan has just about every excuse in the book for why they went 3-9 this year, and many of them are legitimate. ND has only a handful of excuses, and perhaps only one, Charlie Weis, is understandable.
mars | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 4:42 pm | #

The coaching issue will resolve itself.
I do not think Syracuse players played for their coach--I think they played for each other and their own individual pride.

Just about every problem in every game this year came down to the OL. 5 star 300 lb players with absolutely no pride or movement forward. Sometimes it's the players.

We'll see come Sat if Clausen is carted off the field,followed by Sharpely etc
John | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 5:01 pm | #

I never thought I'd see Blue fight so hard on another board for the title of "runner-up" in an Ugly Pageant.

Champions of the West and the rest, I guess.
NDdallas | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 5:08 pm | #

Let's face it, NDdallas: nobody wants to be the ugliest.
mars | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 5:15 pm | #

Why do people think that pros are self motivated-but college kids need someone to fire them up? If anything they probably needs someone to keep them focused.

Tressel is calm on the sidelines, and his program is just fine. I don't think Leach is too fiery either.

Weis might just need to find some better position coaches on offense, and recruit better on the defensive line.

Then again, all of the "good" coaches in college had things straightened out by year 4.
www.southbendblarney.com | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 5:50 pm | #

Remember last year when we were a top 5 team and a 40 point favorite at home against Stanford...and lost???

Oh wait, that was USC...

Sometimes losses happen to teams that you should never lose to.
jason | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 6:20 pm | #

ND was beaten by 9 teams that went to bowl games in 2007. Michigan was beaten by Toledo, Purdue, Illinois, ND, struggled with Miami of Ohio. ND started more true freshman and first year starters on both sides of the ball who had no real experience in Weis's system. Rodriguez force fed his system to a team not ready, ran off a top QB and is in a situation to lose quite a few more. He returned a veteran defense who couldnt stop anyone. Weis was right about Michigan and their excuses in the spring. I just wish we would hit like Ohio State did in that Michigan game.
DB12 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 6:31 pm | #

I think if Rod was able to keep qb Mallow(sp)they beat ND
John | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 6:48 pm | #

No point John, he didnt and they didnt. Sort of like if the dog didnt stop to take a crap he would have caught the rabbit.
DB12 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 6:58 pm | #

db12--point trying to make--he looked damn good as sub when UM waxed ND.

Looked a lot better than JC--go look at the game.
John | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 7:19 pm | #

In the last 6 years there are only three schools with major football programs that have averaged two or less losses per season--USC, Ohio State and Texas (only USC and OSU have averaged less than two losses). There are only an additional three schools that have averaged three or less losses--Georgia, LSU and Oklahoma (if you include OU's forfeited games for cheating, they get removed from the list). Which of these programs would you like ND to emulate and which coach is out there, available, will adhere to ND's policies and will produce similar results to any of these 6 schools??
pangborn77 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 7:49 pm | #

I don't scratch my head on bad game day decisions. I expect that Charlies has been under the influence of prescription pain killers since the Michigan game. They muddle his mind, remove his enthusiasm and have had a terrible effect on the team this year.

We would have been better off if Charlie went in for surgery the Monday after the Michigan game and he coached from the booth the rest of the season.
dbldomer7375 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 8:05 pm | #

John again a mute point. Look at the team Mallet had and the team Clausen had, now put Mallet behind this years team. Compare the defenses last year and quit wishing.
DB12 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 8:07 pm | #

Maybe I've spent to much time over at NDNation, but I am amazed Weis still has the support of so many posters. A consistent aspect of ND over the last 4 years is that they simply cannot run the ball. That's not going to change, ever, under Weis. The offensive line, which has plenty of starts under its collective belt, is painfully incompetent. Weis had made it clear that he lives by the pass and will die by it, and allots practice time accordingly. Our runnin game, if it can be called that, is vanilla to the point that we barely have any plays in which guards pulls.

I was willing to give Weis a fifth year even after the debacle of last year (for which he bore some responsibility, even with Tyrone's legacy of not recuriting), and after Pitt, Navy '08, and BC. But Syracuse was the last straw for me. These aren't isolated incidents, they are symptomatic of a team that is deficient in fundamentals and is usually lifeless on the field. Does anyone here really think that Saturday isn't going to be a game in which Carroll names the score? Yeah, ND is young and most of its stars are underclassmen, but that doesn't explain why one of the most seasoned units on the team -- the offensive line -- is the most incompetent. Weis has got to go, and I am pretty sure he will unless he pulls off a miracle on Saturday.
ndfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 8:09 pm | #

DB12,

Let's be fair here. To say he "force fed" his system is laughable. Rodriguez was hired by Michigan to coach HIS way. His job, as coach, is to teach players how to run his system. What was he supposed to do, run the old-style Michigan system for 2-3 years until he brought in players that could run the spread?

Unless your a mongoloid, it's obvious that Michigan's crappy record is more understandable than ND's. Seriously. Get with it now.
mars | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 8:29 pm | #

*you're
mars | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 8:29 pm | #

Much as I've enjoyed watching DickRod's team suck it hard this year, there really is no comparison. Meechigan has at least shown bursts of not totally sucking for a quarter or two against several decent teams before getting buried. I don't think you could say the same for ND 2007.
Brian Kelly Please | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 9:49 pm | #

Mars, tell that to the people at Michigan. I know first hand their feelings.
DB12 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 10:01 pm | #

ndfootball4ever - Maybe go check out the BGS post on collective starts for the OL and how that affects a team's likely success for the season. It's a good post with lots of comparative data from other teams. You might rethink your comment "they have plenty of starts under their belts" and realize that their inconsistency isn't really a large surprise.

HOWEVER, I still think Latina should be fired.
Kyle | Email | Homepage | 11.27.08 - 1:42 pm | #

jason

>Sometimes losses happen to teams that you should never lose to.

With Weis, it is not "sometimes". For the last 2 + years, it has been always, Aberrations are something that happens out of the ordinary. With Weis, it is a pattern of poor play. Actually, it is not a pattern but a culture. Even is "aberrations" in his first 2 years were blowouts, something Faust, Kuharich or Davie rarely had. The blowout pattern started with Ty and Charlie is continuing it. Even in the winning games, the team looks terrible. They have not looked good since at least before the USC game in '06. They need to cut their losses (literally) and move on.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.27.08 - 4:43 pm | #

Kyle,
I agree, fire Latina, fire Powlus he's a never was too. Tenenue has done a good job thou.
The admin needs to find a good replacement and then fire CW, maybe after signing day in Feb.
Beer for me, Beer for you | Email | Homepage | 11.28.08 - 2:15 pm | #

All the Weis apologists talk about playing freshmen and sophs. But after 11 games, they should be considered sophs and juniors. Don't give me that "young" crap anymore.

Weis is the problem.
gwzimm | Email | Homepage | 11.28.08 - 8:42 pm | #

Aside from the fact that their records are the same, ND 2007 and Michigan 2008 aren't remotely comparable. Michigan lost its all-time leading passer and rusher, the #1 overall draft pick at left tackle, and two NFL-quality WRs. They brought in a new coach to teach a total different offense to a bunch of players who don't properly fit the system, most notably two quarterbacks who, despite their fine efforts, aren't all that good.

Most importantly though, it was Rich Rod's first year, so growing pains were to be expected (although not to the extent they were felt). ND 2007, however, was Notre Dame's third year, when Weis had some of his own players, and a number of years in which to coach them. They still stunk. And they aren't that much better in year four.

If Rich Rod's teams win 9 games total in years 3 and 4 of his regime, I doubt he's going to see a year 5. I'm honestly amazed that there are ND fans willing to give Weis another year given the team's abysmal performance this year and the last. As a Michigan fan though, I'm hoping Notre Dame keeps it close against USC tonight, and Weis gets another 10-year contract extension as a result.
Blue2000 | Email | Homepage | 11.29.08 - 8:56 am | #

Patience, guys, patience. Why all this sense of failure? Charlie has brought our recruiting back from 20 years of poor at best. Without Charlie would we have Golden Tate? No. Floyd? No. Clausen? No. And the list goes on and on. He has done a terrific job at selling the school and attracting kids to the toughest educational environment around.
Are we all disappointed with 6 losses? Sure we are. But look who we lost to. USC is 11-1 and loaded again. MSU has it's best team in years. BC is in the ACC championship game. Pitt and Carolina also ranked and their best teams in years. And Syracuse was playing for a just fired head coach. Credit needs to be given to our opponents - how many of these teams have proven they are just better than us? Maybe we could or should have beaten a couple of them, but do we fire Charlie - playing true freshmen and sophomores - over two games? I say keep Charlie, another good year of recruits and he represents Notre Dame very well.
Bill Greany66 | Email | Homepage | 11.30.08 - 10:38 am | #