Real nice information collected there, I'm sure ya'll ran through a few candles that night
NDdallas | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:19 am | #

Quite impressive stuff here. It fits in almost perfectly with what I (and prolly everyone else) expected.

Kudos.
Brad | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:40 am | #

this goes along with my arguement which i have had the entire season.... thanks for creating tables to support me in my debates
gdomer | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:57 am | #

Also along what I expect. I obviously don't expect more research, but I'd be curious to see career minutes played by the two deeps through the years. Key players this year were technically second string last year, but barely saw action.

So, I'm optimistic by nature, but giving so many extremely talented kids so much experience at such exteme young ages surely will pay off down the road, right? :)
Cú Chulainn | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 1:12 am | #

Impressive. Thanks Dave and the BGS guys.
GB | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 1:35 am | #

I'm surprised because the data (at least to me) suggests that inexperience has less to do with losing than I thought. That is, the collected record of the other teams ranked 2-10 (1st team only or 1st and 2nd teams) is 85-38, with only 2 losing records. I understand that experience in key positions makes a difference (see comments on '88), but if it makes the difference why not just talk about experience of QB, tackles, LB's and secondary and forget the rest?

So, I'm less inclined now to look to inexperience as an excuse than before. Is the problem talent? Schedule? Or, as CW says, is it just bad coaching?

The talent level is changing for the positive. The schedule remains the same. Will coaching change?
milo | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 7:26 am | #

Sad note, not connected to the post, but Robert Hughes' brother was shot and killed in Chicago this morning. 10/31/07.
gwzimm | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 7:41 am | #

God, I remember that Cliff Brown team. It was absolutely horrible in comparison to the previous year's team. I think it took three or four games before the offense outscored the defense.
dbldomer7375 | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 8:00 am | #

Wow. Very, very impressive. Milo, I think the answer to your question is that yes, it has been bad coaching: Weis has done as bad a job of coaching this young squad as he did of coaching the last two years' (relatively) experienced ones. It might just be that he's simply not a good coach for a team made up primarily of inexperienced players ...
John | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 8:35 am | #

This is the reason I read Blu Gray Sky to the exclusion of all others except for the Weis' pressers and a peek at the ND Nation headlines, which also covers basketball.
captain jack | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 9:31 am | #

Not sure if anyone else has pointed this out yet, but the '77 team was coached by Dan Devine, not Ara (even though most of the stars of that team were Ara's recruits).
seymour 85 | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 9:32 am | #

Ara's best year may have been his first (64). We came within a dubious holding call on the 1 yd line against USC (remember that was a 15 yd penalty in those days) of being undefeated and consensus champs. We actually were awarded the MacArthur Bowl as the top team, although the polls turned us down. He made John Huarte into a Heisman winner and Jack Snow, who was a middlng running back into an All American end and future star for the Rams. (Many think that the Heisman was mainly due to Snow). He did inherit a tremendous Sophomore class (no Frosh on varsity in those days): Alan Page, Jim Lynch, Nick Eddy, Larry Conjar, George Goedekke, Tom Regner, Kevin Hardy, Allen Sack, etc., most of whom contributed right away. We did struggle offensively the next year with a quarterback that was not up to the Huarte, Hanratty, Theismann, level. Then the 66 year all of those stars were seniors, but the quarterback (Hanratty) and star end (Jim Seymour) were Sophomores.
ND67Aquajock | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 9:45 am | #

Just looked closer at the first chart. How could the 64 players have 3.45 experience if Freshmen couldn't play?
ND67Aquajock | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 9:59 am | #

Seymour, yep, that line was supposed to come out. Thanks for the heads up.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 10:13 am | #

Aqua, 3.45 is the average of the class years for the starters on offense in '64. Check out the 2nd page ("Depth Charts") for the full detail on that year.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 10:16 am | #

Wow, this is amazing! Great work! Just curious - where were you able to find the information on depth charts?
John | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 10:34 am | #

Milo, I think you make some great points, and similar thoughts definitely occurred to me in putting this together. There certainly doesn't seem to be a strong correlation between the overall youth of a team and that team's winning percentage. I suppose it depends so much more on other factors: raw talent (regardless of age), opponent strength, coaching, luck, etc.

This isn't to say the youth of this team isn't a factor in the team's suckitude. It is, in a couple of different ways. First, the youth of this team is showing in missed assignments, drops, failures to execute, etc. But more importantly, the coaches can be faulted in not taking into account just how young this team was when preparing throughout the spring and fall, and failing to modify their approach accordingly (i.e. more work on blocking, tackling, hitting, fundamentals, etc).

Good comments, Milo.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 10:39 am | #

Maybe it's time to stop making excuses for Weis. The bottom line is, the man is being paid $3.5M/year to win football games. As he said, they don't hand out ribbons for trying.
Mike Q. | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 10:40 am | #

Thanks, Jay, I just figured that out! Your know, old minds!!! But I wonder how relevant that is, given some years you couldn't play varsity until soph year? And I think there were some pretty strict rules about Freshmen even practicing with the varsity players. Of course, not many "true" Freshman (as opposed to lying?) actually start.

The experience factor is definitely the major comparison point and you've come up with a very good way to do that.
ND67Aquajock | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 10:43 am | #

While Milo/Jay have pointed out that there seems to be less of a correlation b/t youth and winning than might have been expected, is it possible that we reached the tipping point this year, where there was really just too much youth, especially at key positions. It seems that in general, taking other teams into account here as well, young/inexperienced players make more mistakes. We have so much youth that they almost trade off who makes mistakes on what play. From time to time you have a few plays that go well, but it is virtually never sustained. This is not to say that better coaching could have coaxed a few more wins out of our team, but the season was going to suck anyway, so maybe with it this bad CW will really learn some good coaching lessons and kick ass in a year or two. I can only hope.
mark | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 11:07 am | #

It's not just age, but also experience. Rice was technically a sophomore in '88, but he started most of the '87 season and actually entered school in the fall of '86. Also, ND's recruiting has drastically improved the last few years, but they have had some crazy bad luck with the cream of the crop of their classes. Darrin Walls, James Aldridge, Gary Gray and Claussen have all been slowed by significant injuries. Weis has made some mistakes, but he has also showed willingness to learn from his mistakes.
jeff | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 11:35 am | #

I continue to be amazed by the excuses b&g will use to deflect the blame for the worst team ND has fielded in 40 years. There are plenty of other college teams this year that are young & inexperienced, with recruiting classes ranked much lower than any of ours, who are kicking butt on the football field.
IT'S COACHING !!!!!!!!!!!!

CW is not a good gameplanner any more; everyone else in the country is on to his tendencies. He is not a good motivator-period. Quite honestly, I think his ego is so huge that he refuses to take any advice from his assistants.
How can you go 8 games into a season, and being any sort of an offensive- minded coach, and not put together 1 decent half of football ?

Steve Hunter, Class of '72

Edited By Siteowner
Steve | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 11:40 am | #

Great piece of work!
The 1988 team was awesome and y.o.u.n.g.! It still hurts to think about 1989 and what coulda/shoulda/ woulda been.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 11:45 am | #

I know we've commented on the young o-line, and the fact that other schools may be able to start freshmen on the O-line only because the line as a whole isn't inexperienced.

one question:

did anyone see the end of the Georgia/Florida game? The entire left side of the Georgia o-line were TRUE freshman. When they needed to run out the clock in the 4th quarter which way did they run the ball?

over the left side - that is, to the side of the freshman.

I understand that circumstances are a huge factor in individual success, but I still don't understand why many seem willing to write off our poor o-line play as the result of inexperience and youth. I couldn't believe my eyes when they showed the stats on those two beasts. Both true freshmen, and both spent the entire night feasting on gator soup.

what i wouldn't give for some freshmen like that.
domer03inbmore | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 11:50 am | #

Steve, name a team wity as much youth and inexperience as we have who is kicking butt? It is easy to call people morons, but back your statements with some facts. Who in the country starts as much youth and inexperience at all skill positions, not one or two...all...who in the country has as little DLine experience? Domer, maybe those Olinemen couldnt qualify for ND academically, it would be great to get all of the great players, dont compare what ND gets to public universities who graduate less than 50% of their players. I think Steve needs to read CW's statements, no excuses, and he does take the blame. Hard to gameplan when nothing is working. I guess Weis became the worlds biggest dumbass this year and worst coach and that Quinn and the rest of the crew did it all the last two years. I guess it didnt matter who was coach Quinn and the boys were going to lead us to BCS games. Like they did with Willingham.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:01 pm | #

For those of you lamenting Weis, not permitting inexperience to contribute to the overall bleak picture that has been this season, I posit you this:

What about the last two years? You know, when Weis was winning games by the handful?

I don't see how people can claim coaching is the beginning and end of our struggles, when not one year ago he was in charge of a very successful team.

Is the team's performance dictated by the players when we do well, and the coaching when we struggle?

Being that that's an obviously ludicrous statement, and we must accept that Weis's coaching played some sort of role in the team's performance over the last two years, how do you explain what happened? Did Weis forget how to coach? And even if he did, what should ND do about it? Fire him and go out and hire somebody else who wants to be part of a program that's run its last three coaches out of town?

Inexperience across the board including at key positions, a brutal schedule, and COACHING have all contributed to this terrible year. It may make you feel better to be able to point a single finger at the root of the problem, but it's more complex than that.

In other words, feel free to lay into Weis all you want this year, but remember your critiques two and three years from now when the program is in a very different place.
Pete | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:04 pm | #

Great work.

There are a couple of other factors that you could work in if you had the time and info. First, freshman weren't eligible in '64, so even the guys who had zero experience were not just out of high school, but had a year of practice under their belts. Second, the freshmen actually played a schedule (three games most year) against other freshmen teams such as Michigan, Purdue, etc., so they were able to get the "game speed" experience that our guys lack now. Your point about Theismann reminded me of how I used to watch Clements run the scout team and play in freshman games and how much I regretted that he couldn't play for the varsity in 1971.
Jim | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:05 pm | #

Looks like the last column in the summary page is not calculating correctly. Also, did you intend to post the list of years from 1964 through 2007 on the main blog? All I see is year 1964 and year 2007.

Great job on stats, I'm a stat guy and your posts are always solid. Thanks for your efforts.
Wil | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:16 pm | #

I think the key point is that we start true freshman at QB, receiver and running back. In addition our O-line has three players with no experience and one with one year. If you can find another team with a similar offense, I would be intrigued to find out who.

And regarding GA's offensive line. Watch out for what you wish for. Yes, they beat a Florida team that has all of one quality win this year (Kentucky), but they also got pummeled by UT, lost to S. Carolina, and have struggled mightily with such superpowers as Vandy and Ole Miss. Basing your view of their o-line based on the Florida game is similar to thinking ND's defense is phenomenal based on the UCLA game.
Michael | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:19 pm | #

Wil, yep, that block in the main post was just as an example.

Which column on the summary page isn't calculating correctly?
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:36 pm | #

just for the record, ND has put up several decent halfs of football this year.

A whole game on other hand (at least offensively) might be another story.
irishguy06 | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:38 pm | #

Steve Hunter, I had to edit your post. Feel free to state your opinion but please keep the personal insults to yourself.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:40 pm | #

also, is anybody doing anything for the Hughes family?
irishguy06 | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:51 pm | #

STEVE HUNTER, will you be man enough to come back online during the next two years to admit YOU were wrong in ripping CW and the fine people with Blue-Gray Sky? They take their time to provide thought provoking material for all of us who believe in ND.

I resent you referring to them as morons. Your post doesn't deserve to be included.

No one can predict whether Charlie will fail or bring the Irish back. Not you...not me. One thing is certain CW is leading a tremendous recruiting job, and that is where it must begin and be strengthened

Thank you Doug and Pete for your viewpoints.
Ted | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 12:57 pm | #

Thoughts of next year and 2009 especially keep me going. This has been absolutely brutal. Can anyone remember a more lackluster season?
Fighting Binny | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 1:16 pm | #

Notre Dame National Champions 2009. 'Nuf said. That has a nice ring to it don't you think boys? Let's just win these final 4 games. Kick some ass next year and win it all the year after. We do that, this year will seem like a distant memory....Here's to putting up some serious points this weekend. I just hope we can make a tackle.
Paul | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 1:29 pm | #

It's interesting that Ty had 2 of the least experienced offenses in the past 40 years in 2003 and 2004. I always suspected that to be the case.
Andrew | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 1:35 pm | #

When did ND start allowing freshman to play? Didn't ND originally not let freshman play in the games or something?

Anyways, it makes me wonder, if LITERALLY, this is the youngest team ND has EVER fielded.
atepesm | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 1:51 pm | #

I'd like to see fifth years count as 5, and how that changes it, if it does. I know it would require separate research to figure out who is fifth year.

Interesting: Carlson has 40% of the experience on the offensive side of the ball.
JPB | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 2:15 pm | #

I think you mean Sullivan? Yeah, I noticed that too.

Clausen 0
Aldridge 0
Schwapp 1.5 (and that's generous, since he only played a handful of games last year)
Kamara 0
Parris 0
Carlson 1
Sullivan 3
Turk 0.5
Wenger/Olsen 0
Duncan 0.5
Young 1

Even if you swapped Sharpley for Clausen, the total experience only goes up by 0.5.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 2:34 pm | #

Comment to Steve Hunter:

I commend you for not allowing FACTS to get in the way of your senseless ranting.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 10.31.07 - 7:14 pm | #

What is interesting is how, when you compare Ty in 2003 and Weis in 2007, Ty did as good a job as Weis did with similar experience and respectiveyoung recruits.

Then, look where Ty is in building his program and Weis and, besides recruiting, you have to conclude that Ty is as good, if not a better head coach than Weis.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.01.07 - 6:46 pm | #

Anonymous go to your own teams site.
We get tired of listening to you. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.01.07 - 6:57 pm | #

Annonymous:
Your post makes almost no sense.
Lush | Email | Homepage | 11.01.07 - 7:28 pm | #