losing to Navy, losing to Syracuse, blown out by USC 3 years in a row, 15 losses in two seasons, accepting a bowl bid that will pay out a little more than we pay CW per game, on the other teams home field (so we can practice a little more), that we very well could and probably will lose, on national tv, on Christmas Eve at 8pm --- priceless. Our Lady on the Dome must be incredibly proud...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 8:01 am | #

Oh man, didn't realize it was Christmas Eve....my wife is not going to like that one bit!
ND101 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 8:48 am | #

As others have noted - it is an odd choice considering Charlie's public statements about "extra practice time" since we probably could have gone to a bowl game a week later.

Most seem to be chalking it up as a veiled recruiting trip for that Hawaiian linebacker. Not sure he's worth it, but if we don't get him (and lose) this is going to be one *wrong* trip.

-Domer96
Domer96 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:06 am | #

I don't have a problem with the Irish accepting a bowl invitation. I do have a problem with a Catholic university accepting an invitation to play a game on one of the holiest days in the year.

Did the ND administration sell its soul for the exposure of playing on ESPN? To recruit a linebacker? Mark May & John Saunders are just going to love that thought.
Knoxville Irish | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:19 am | #

It would seem like the team and the fans would rather go to Hawaii than any other place if you look at it as just a destination and not a football game. Boise will not have ocean beach or even shirt sleeve weather.
GB | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:19 am | #

this season has been enough of a violation of everything 'Notre Dame' that another game on a day we shouldn't be playing against a team we shouldn't be playing in a venue we shouldn't attend won't change much.
ColoradoIrish | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:31 am | #

Looks like the kids will have to leave out a bottle of booze so that Santa can "forget" this game ever happened.
Matt J. | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:33 am | #

"Book 'em Danno!"

(And yes, it's "Danno," not "Dano." See: http://barelybad.com/xwd_danno.htm)

Just had to be the first one to use this line today.

;-)
Épée Fencer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:33 am | #

What may never be mentioned in this whole backstory is that the marching band will not get to travel to this bowl game, as is their custom for postseason football play. We would have been able to go to any of the other potential bowls (Texas, Independence, etc.), but the team chose Hawaii, and the travel expenses are just too steep...

...talk about "Winter of our Discontent"...I wonder if the coaches/players even realize how selfish this decision is.
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:40 am | #

This is just another puzzling aspect of Notre Dame football that makes me ill.

The players would be better off spending time with their families and friends back home.
Subway Alumni | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:45 am | #

I have been looking around and so far have not seen what the bowl payout is. If a good chunk of it goes to student aid, I will not be so critical.

(I did find the list of corporate sponsors, and when I saw the name of the last one I was relieved to know we will have the yellow first-down line on our screens.)
Épée Fencer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:46 am | #

Anyone have an injury update? Especially Mike Anello. I want to see him back out on the field for the Irish.
Épée Fencer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:51 am | #

You people make me sick. Your bitching and moaning are disgusting. The fact that you claim to be affiliated with Notre Dame is, I hope, nothing more than a false claim - this is not the spirit of the ND family. Critiquing the team's play, the coaching, etc, is fine, but please take your fair-weather fanhood and your extreme language and go join a fan base where you'll fit in. I hear they could use some more up in Ann Arbor right now, or maybe in Columbus your attitude would fit right in.

The decision to go to this bowl game was made along with the players - don't tell them what's best for them when this is what they want. And seriously, did someone accuse the players and coaches of being selfish for going to Hawaii for a bowl game? SERIOUSLY?? Should the players and coaches have to wait for the BGS or NDNation polls to come in to give them permission to go to a certain bowl game? Should they check a poll by the same "fans" who continue to debase them and badmouth them on these message boards? Disgusting.

GO IRISH!
OderName | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:54 am | #

Knoxville, I fail to see Christmas Eve as one of the holiest days of the year, especially as it is not even a holy day of obligation (there are 8 of those). That puts it at at least ninth. Plus, it would rank behind Holy Thursday, Holy Saturday, Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday, and for Irish fans everywhere, St Patricks Day. So we are looking at at least 14th place.

Just cause you drink on a given day (Dec 24th), does not make it a holy day.

As for the bowl bid, here are a couple reasons for not going to the other bowls we could have gone to (assuming going to a bowl with a PAC-10 or Big 12 tie in):
Texas Bowl vs Rice: #5 passing Offense, #8 scoring offense
Emerald Bowl vs Miami 12/27: This would be even more disruptive to the families, since they would be in California for Christmas, although the opponent would be great.
Independence Bowl 12/28: vs Louisiana Tech? That would be worse than playing Hawaii
Poinsetta Bowl:
International Bowl: seriously?

Hawaii Bowl: Still gets guys back for Xmas, albeit later in the day (no running down the steps in their fuzzy bear PJs to see what Santa left), against a team that is apparently as woeful as us on Offense, and potentially worse than us on Special Teams, in good weather, where a prime recruit happens to live. (Oh by the way, there are also recruits near the emerald bowl and the entire state of Texas is probably recruitable).

And finally, we need to win a bowl game, and if takes going to Hawaii to do so, well so be it. You can not continue your "return" to national prominence while continuing your NCAA record bowl losing streak!!

As for the money: Payout: 750K
Independence Bowl: 1.1 mil
Texas Bowl: 612.5K
Emerald Bowl: 750K

Plus the 1 mil for not going to a BCS game.

Go Irish, beat Rainbows (ok Rainbow Warriors)
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:55 am | #

Epee,

Anello has a broken leg and will be out for the bowl game. He may come back for a 5th year...
ND101 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:57 am | #

Sweet. I think we can beat Hawaii. One of the few bowl eligible teams I could say that about.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:00 am | #

First of all, playing a game at 3 PM HST does not mean the players can't go to Church. Yes it's one of the Holiest Days of the Year, but that doesn't stop me from drinking too much eggnog every year. Why can't they play football?

Secondly, by playing in a game on the 24th, the team will still be able to go home and enjoy their winter breaks with their families, rather than returning straight to the practice fields.

All I'm saying, is that if I were a player, and I was offered a free trip to Hawaii for Christmas to play the sport I love, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

I know we all think we're too good for the Hawaii Bowl, but we were a mediocre team. It's okay by me to play in a mediocre bowl. While it's humbling, I'm a little excited that we have a bowl game that we could actually win. And if we do, I know I'll be waking up Christmas morning with a smile on my face. (And if we don't...well no one reads the papers on Christmas morning anyway...)
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:03 am | #

Matt '09-

Tough s*&$, Bandie. What about the other ND student fans that ALWAYS have to pay their own way to go to the away games, and buy their own tickets, and pay for their own hotel rooms. You can suck it up for this game, if you really want to go. It actually sounds as if YOU are the one being selfish (read this in a whiney voice: "how could the team choose a game where the university will not pay for ME and the band to go?" BTW, here is to the mental image I have of you:(http://www.cccoe.net/social/images/ selfish.gif)
And here is a link to the definition of selfish, since your education (home schooled, maybe?) failed to provide one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfishness

Épée Fencer-
All income/revenue from any athletic program goes into a common fund at ND, from which the athletic department draws their budget. The payout does not go directly back to the athletic department's coffers, so some of your hopes about the $$ being used for student aid will be answered.
And Mike A is out for 2-4 months with a broken leg.
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:06 am | #

Crap. My posting skills are not as sharp as my wit:
http://www.cccoe.net/social/imag...ges/ selfish.gif
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:08 am | #

Yes, OderName, I did call it SELFISH, because as a member of the marching band, I look at the 5/6 possible bowl games, and this is the only one where ND will not be taking a band.

Perhaps you may think fall Saturdays are all about football, and I agree that the football players work harder and prepare longer than we do, but this is a slap in the face to the countless hours that the 400+ band members logged this season. We look forward to a bowl trip every year as OUR postseason, just as the football team looks forward to the bowl and the basketball team looks forward to an NCAA tourney run.

And don't give me that BS about the Spirit of ND Family! Entirely based on the football team's preference, we are playing at a bowl game that no one but rich alumni and native islanders can afford to attend, at a time (8PM on Christmas Eve) that most from the ND Family will be spending time with their own families at Christmas parties and/or masses. It has the lowest, or nearly the lowest, payout of any possible game, and it gives us the least practice time.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to cheer for the Irish in this bowl game, especially from the sideline as my last game in an ND band uniform. But some things are more important than football, and my family (which I only see a couple times a year, being so far from home) and Christmas mass (which is 10PM in my town) are two of them.
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:10 am | #

My thanks to the well-informed fans who attend this forum for the answers to my questions.

One favor to ask though -- can we please keep the season in mind when posting. I.e., a little charity to each other, please.

It has been a frustrating fall for my beloved American football teams (ND and the Packers [5th loss by 4 points or less yesterday]), so I understand where everyone is coming from. But let's keep it civil.

There is more to life than football -- like fencing! ;-)

Seriously, let's hope the team -- and fans -- unite to get a bowl win and jump start the fall 2009 effort!!
Épée Fencer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:22 am | #

Anyone watch the ESPN bowl selection show? Could Mark May dislike Lou any more? Even when Lou was being facetious about ND’s “strong” schedule this year, May was all over him like he was a kool-aid drinker with the best of us.

The stupid thing is that, while I understand most on these boards can’t stand the man and will take offense to this statement, much of the time he has at least interesting if not useful insights about other college football teams. So, now I am starting to think he doesn’t so much dislike ND as he just can’t stand that he has to sit next to Lou day in and day out during football season. And you can tell the difference with how Corso and Herbstreit treated Lou when they disagreed with him – they were much more respectful, didn’t roll their eyes or just start spouting off.

MM and Lou just are not a viewable tandem, never have been. Good tandems can disagree without trying to make the other look silly. Unfortunately, Lou will be the one changed out of the mix if it comes to that.

Oh, and just to add another two cents, I like this bowl choice. I can understand why some don't, but think it will be an interesting match up, and I'll make sure I have enough space on my DVR so I can make it to vigil mass and family dinner and then get the kids to bed before Santa comes, and then enjoy the game in peace. That's what the season is about, right? Peace, love, joy? The holidays, that is; not this football season.
IndyEsq | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:25 am | #

Yeah, you're right Wertzy...the marching band puts in no effort all season and is rewarded with a season of free football games. We even get to tailgate all morning, eating and drinking on the university's tab. And after the game, surf and turf for all!

Here's my image of you, Wertzy, performing your ritual watching of ND on Saturday.

http://bigmikescience.files.word...ouch- potato.jpg

The fact that you're eating potato chips may be the closest you've ever come to being Irish.

And hey, look! My education didn't require 3 TRIES TO COPY A URL CORRECTLY!
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:25 am | #

And congrats to women's soccer!

Despite a heartbreaking loss in the NCAA championship, it was a GREAT run this year (undefeated until the championship game). They played their hearts out yesterday -- there were some very gutsy efforts by banged up players fighting until the final whistle! Bravo!!

(My Sunday was sooo painful, I watched the soccer game on ESPN 360 while simultaneously tracking the Packer game. UNC kicked the winning goal just as Houston kicked the winning field goal against the Pack -- what a double slam!)
Épée Fencer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:31 am | #

Matt, what is 400/11500? It's about 3.5%, just in case you're not heavy on the math skills. That is the band population out of the total student body (undergrad and grad).

As far as Christmas Eve mass, it sounds like possibly your family goes to mass on Christmas Eve to allow more time on Christmas for celebrating the material things, rather than going to Christmas Mass on hmmmmm...CHRISTMAS! So puh-lease stop playing the ohhhh it's a holy day card. It's not. (see previous post)

The cool thing is they have this crazy new gadget called Tivo, or maybe a DVR, where you can record the game, pause it when you go to mass, and then restart it when you get back, and it is like time stood still while you were gone.

And just so you know, you complaining about not being able to be on the sidelines to a group of people that is sometimes lucky to get to go to a game at all in a given year, is a pretty weak arguement. If being in uniform is so important to you, bring it home, and you can wear it there and fire up your family and friends by playing the right songs at the right moment.

Finally, I reiterate. . .who, if not the team, should have the biggest say in what bowl the team goes to, assuming that they are all mid-to-lower-tier bowl games. . . "You!? You LT Weinberg!?. . .I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a helmet and shouldpads and play a position. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!" (disclaimer: quote slightly modified to make it more mocking)
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:32 am | #

I think it is a great idea to close this season out sooner rather than later---hopefully with a win---and get on with the next.
jeff | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:34 am | #

so what time will this game be, EDT?
oakvilleirish | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:35 am | #

8:00 PM Eastern
Épée Fencer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:36 am | #

Matt '09 -

First off, let me say that I greatly appreciate the band at ND. When I used to get to campus two weeks early for practice for the varsity sport I played a decade or so ago, the band hopefuls were already hard at work out on the Steppen fields. I remember biking through hellish weather from my off-campus house at St. Pete's street and seeing the band practicing in the parking lot by Senior Bar. The ND band is without a doubt the greatest in the land, and deserves the respect and recognition for the excellence that is a result of hours upon hours of hard work and practice.

So please let the following not be an indictment of the band or its members in any way.

The football team and coaches should not have to consider the wishes of the band, the cheerleaders, the dance team, the Observer sports editors, the fans, the managers, etc. when choosing which bowl game they should go to as a reward (yeah, I get the irony here) for their season. These other groups exist primarily to support the football team - the football team does not exist to support these groups.

I'm sorry that we won't get to hear the band playing during the game - I admit it won't feel right, but to call the team selfish is out of line.

And I suggest checking your facts on the payouts - compare the payout to the other bowl options we had and you'll see it's in the same ballpark.
OderName | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:39 am | #

Épée, between the Packers and the Irish women's soccer match, yesterday was crummy. I hate complaining about officials, but the soccer team was up against a great team, on virtually their home field, and then they had two terrible offside calls stop their attacks as well as two iffy fouls called against them. When it went the other way, and Kerri Hanks was tripped at the very end of the game, the ref swallowed his whistle. I would not have called a foul, but I also would not have given UNC the kicks they had earlier. It was really inconsistent. Sorry for the rant. At least the Packers were not televised here.

IndyEsq, that was a great comment about Peace, Love, and Joy. I doubt I'll watch the game live, but I'm fine with the choice if that is what the team wants.

Matt '09, the reports of band fund-raising for the USC game were impressive. I hope that you can take some solace in getting to SoCal.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:40 am | #

You're right, Matt 09. I didn't attend 1992-1996 or graduate with Aerospace Engineering, while doing Navy ROTC and being a sutdent manager. I didn't live in Alumni Hall all four years. I didn't

Never said the band didn't put in the effort. In fact, I realize they do. Plus they do get mocked a lot (NOTE: my intention here is not to mock all band members, just the whiney ones who think they may be entitled to more than they are). While they do not get to participate in as much of it, I have seen plenty of band members out in the tailgate lots before and after the games. But, I did not remember seeing them when we (ROTC) were out cleaning up the stadium and parking lots after the tailgaters left early Sunday morning. But, I did not feel I was entitled to any more than any other student. Even though I was a manager, I still had to pay my own way to any away games (save 1) if I wanted to go.

Oh, just so I don't forget, congrats on being able to post a URL in one try. You must be very proud :)
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:40 am | #

OderName and Matt 09-

I did forget about seeing them late at night practicing by Senior Bar. They did put in some long hours.

And I still cheer for them when they (the band) run on the field. I still love it when the band dances, and especially when they play the songs that get the student section involved (Sweet Caroline, etc).

They do get many perks with respect to home and many away games, as well as home basketball and other games, so I think that their effor is somewhat rewarded, as it was for the managers, trainers, and the cheerleaders, and the Irish Guard (technically part of the band). I am sorry if they feel slighted at the bowl choice. What got my dander up is the sense of entitlement, and trying to cast a selfish light on the team for their choice of the bowl.

I know in the past, ND has ponied up cash to get the band to some games that they are not normally at (USC comes to mind, but I think there was another west coast game as well in the past couple of seasons). It sucks that they can not do it here, but don't blame the team.
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:49 am | #

Let's get a few facts straight.

Christmas Eve is not a holy day of obligation (as has been mentioned). That is like saying we Catholics have a weekly obligation to attend Mass on Saturday. P.S. Today is a holy day of obligation.

I can appreciate the band's disappointment with not being able to make the bowl trip to Hawaii. My frosh year roommate was in the band and spent more time in practice and walkthroughs then most varsity athletes. However, live by the sword, die by the sword. The band's ability to make any trip depends on the football team. If you are blessed enough to travel to Tempe or Pasadena or wherever when the team goes 12-0, you have to also deal with the ramifications of a 3-9 or 6-6 team.

I personally was not too pleased to hear the Irish opted for Hawaii, because of past games there. I felt this would be one matchup where ND could not fare well. In their other two trips (games which I attended) they looked fairly bad in escaping with late victories despite being heavily favored. Still, these are two different teams so hopefully the same island mojo will not haunt them.

Lastly, I attended yesterday's ND-UNC game in balmy Cary NC. ND scored in the first 30 seconds but soon after that the momentum was all UNC...
c-stone | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:49 am | #

does any ND fan ever have anything good to say? If ND ever ceases to be my favorite sports team it will be because their whiny fans. I saw of Fox sports (one of their stupid lists) that they voted Notre Dame fans as the most obnoxious. I don't think we're obnoxious, we're whiny.
tt | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:52 am | #

Not to carryout this silly band debate any further, but I agree with OderName's last post that it would be unreasonable (and yes, selfish) to expect the football program to allow the band's wishes to influence their decision.

I am eternally hopeful that this is the year we win a bowl game. In my eyes, this game is pretty big in setting the tone between now and next September...
irishru2 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:55 am | #

Hey, tt. Stop your whining. It annoys the rest of us.
shawn | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:55 am | #

i've read in several places that the bowl purse is almost $400K (http://notredame.rivals.com/content.asp? CID=886731), not $800K as listed above.

enough with the complaining. i'm looking forward to spending time with my family and watching the game with my dad (which i rarely get to do) from the comforts of my childhood home. even if i was a rich alumni or in the band, i certainly wouldn't feel "slighted" to not get to see a crappy 6-6 team play a crappy 7-5 WAC team.
Schultz | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:56 am | #

Quick reflections on the arguments of the warring online camps.

1.) Christmas Eve game time -- it will be a problem in our German family. Can't wait to break this to my wife who loves football, but thinks I am obsessed with it.

Christmas Eve in Germany is called "der heilige Abend" -- the Holy Evening. So for German Fighting Irish fans, this may be a problem. But as is pointed out, the game can be recorded and it will surely be available on ESPN360.

2.) The band. I do feel sorry for Matt and the band. However, as a fencer, we were always in the shadow of the football team. Always -- even when we twice won National Championships. We got our last page of the Observer treatment, which was just a fraction of what was devoted each and every week to the football team.

It's just the way it is. It bugged me for about ten minutes and then I was thankful I got to fence with such a talented group and a great coach at the greatest university in the US. And this discrepancy never stopped me from rooting all out for the football players, many of whom were wonderful guys, always asking me how things were going with fencing.

It bugs me for about five minutes every year or so, but then I remember ND is more, much more, than going to football games.

Matt -- you and the rest of the band are to be commended -- I had a band roommate, I know how hard you work. But life -- with and without the football team -- will go on. And you will have four great years of playing in the oldest continuous band in the nation to look back upon with pride! And you will have probably received an excellent education, btw.
Épée Fencer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:58 am | #

OderName and Irish_Wertzy: Thank you for all you've done for our Lady and her university.

I don't mean to be insulting. It's just that feeling of thinking you had one last shot at something you love doing, then forces beyond your control steal it from you. I'm sure you must remember your senior day game, OderName, and you must remember your last function as manager or ROTC officer commissioning, Wertzy, with the same level of fondness and emotion.

It's also hard not to be insulting when the response to your post starts with "Tough shit, bandie!" and concludes by twice insulting your intelligence.

I'll have to ask Santa for one of those DVR things :)
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:58 am | #

Okay, everybody ease up. We're all friends here, even when we disagree.

Pat & I are making a conscious effort to clean up the comments section (the first time we've really had to since the inception of the blog). Help us out by not taking pot shots at each other, okay? Thanks.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 10:59 am | #

Damn you, Jay. If we can't take pot shots at fellow Irish Fans (whom, despite any previous posts, I belive we would all gladly stand shoulder to shoulder against any other fans), we will have to come up with witty pot shots to take at the Rainbows. .

On second thought. . . .
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:02 am | #

Louie, you are so right about the calls. How they blew the two offsides is unbelievable, these weren't close to being offsides. And as for the fouls either both were or weren't. Glad the commentators raised these issues as I know I am biased.
Épée Fencer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:03 am | #

What's with all the hating around here? Who calls a band guy "bandie"? Sounds like something the mean frat kid in Revenge of the Nerds would say.

Of course the band is disappointed, and the least we can do is let 'em bitch about it without jumping all over them.

As for what bowl we're going to, I think Hawaii seems about right, Christmas Eve or no. I'm just happy we're not playing on the Feast of the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God--a holy day of obligation that falls on January 1, for those of you who may be ignorant home-schooled kids.
Paul | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:04 am | #

Uh, oh, Holy Day of Obligation -- gotta run to Mass now!!
Épée Fencer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:09 am | #

Matt '09 -

Agreed that the comment about "bandie" was immature and out of line - not the type of argument I'm making or would ever make.

I get the feeling of disappointment, when you're expecting to go to a bowl game and then find out you're not.

I don't know how it would work, but if you or someone else affiliated with the band wanted to try to raise some funds to get some of the band to the game so we can hear the Victory March on tv, I'd donate. It would be a very entrepreneurial, Notre Dame thing to do.

P.S.: Yes, you have to get a DVR. I seriously don't know how I ever lived without it. There's nothing better than starting to watch a home game an hour after kickoff, fast-forwarding through all those endless NBC commercials, and still catching up to live tv in the last few minutes of the game to see the end live.
OderName | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:11 am | #

It's too bad the rest of ND Stadium doesn't have something similar to get "Oven Mitts" off the field more quickly!
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:13 am | #

Plus, now that I'm married with two kids ("OderName" is how "Notre Dame" comes out when my 2-year old sings the Victory March), DVR is the only way to get my boss - er, wife - to let me watch anything other than ND football. Kids are in bed, wife goes to bed, I sneak downstairs and watch a game or two. Awesome.
OderName | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:14 am | #

And by "Awesome", I really mean "Pathetic". Ah, real life . . .
OderName | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:15 am | #

Well I'm glad we're all pleased with the Hawaii Bowl. Why doesn't Lou tell everyone on that show the truth? If he were coach, a 6-6 ND team would be home for the holidays. Now is the winter of our discontent.

And Tory Jackson, make a free throw.
Mark | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:23 am | #

Matt,

Sorry for delusion.. if they don't think about Christmas do you really think they consider the Band. Same occurred in 1984 when the first Gerry Faust coached... good thing was we missed another ND loss..

This will be a money loser for the university.

This bowl will affect ND finals for the players.. which ND said they wouldn't do.

And will add an incredible two weeks of precious practice...

Also, don't forget how hungry this will make the team for next year... 6-6 gets you Hawaii...

ND used to not consider bowls on Christmas Eve/Christmas... so I guess there really is nothing left for any ND to sellout...

So despite paying big bucks for a coach, allowing Jan admissions, buying CW a plane, spending gazillions on facilities etc... here we sit 6-6 and right where we were in 84... pretty sad state..
jmc | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:43 am | #

matt '09

i think the only answer to your gripes is that life isn't necessarily always fair. your priorities as they are mean that you will not be able to watch the game as you'll be at mass. i believe that's what DVR or TIVO is for.

and you don't get to go to one more bowl game? sorry, neither do i. i'm sure that the team voted for what's best for them (and, for once, i believe they made the right choice for many reasons). i'm fairly certain, since i had plenty of friends in the band, that this choice is disappointing to you. i'm sure in making the decision on which bowl to go to that they couldn't keep everyone happy. i for one am happy for those ND fans living in hawaii since they will finally get to see a game live; which is incredibly difficult at ANY other time as we don't normally play hawaii or any other team close by save stanford and usc. whereas you, by being in the band, had the opportunity to see the team travelling or at home THROUGHOUT THE SEASON which is an opportunity that most students or fans did not have.

that you would have the gall to call the team selfish for 'robbing' you of one more game is astounding in the least. recognize the great opportuinty that you did have and ...

get over yourself.
desert mouse | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:48 am | #

jmc, man, why you got to bring us down.

We will still end up in the black after this bowl game due to the $1 million we get from the BCS when we do not go to a BCS game.

Finals end on the 19th, and the team will not be leaving until the night of the 19th, so except for practice during finals (which I do not believe they do), there should be no interruption of finals.
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:48 am | #

I for one cheer, cheer for old Notre Dame. The team underperformed a tad but they still have a bowl game to build on. The Seniors get to close out their careers in sunny Hawaii after sticking with the program. We should applaud them.

As far as bowl selection, there were trade-offs with every game. At least this game will not be on the gag-me NFL Network.
Lowayne | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:50 am | #

Not to threadjack or anything, but ND offered a scholarship and received a commitment from a long snapper. That makes 3 scholarships used in this class on special teams players. Unbelievable considering how BAD our O-line and D-line has been this year. I'm in shock at offering a long snapper a full ride for 4 years when we need so much help in other areas. I'm just hoping he didn't take a scholly away from a 3 star kid that needs some polishing and weight room work but has the potential to play more than a few snaps a game. I remember a kid that was snapping for his dorm team and got picked to try out for the real team, and made it, and did really well. Now we are offering scholarships to kids that should be walk-ons or can be found playing dorm ball? Just unbelievable.
WyoMike | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:51 am | #

Knoxville Irish-
Actually Christmas Day is the second most Holy day of the year, right after Easter.
Christmas Eve is the evening before our Savior was born.
TBoneND | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:53 am | #

i was hoping we would get a lower profile bowl against a lower profile team. the 2008 irish football team & cw do not deserve a christmas vacation trip to honolulu. they should be freezing their asses off in toronto, playing ball state or somebody like that; working hard & praying that they win and do not get humiliated again..
brian custer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:54 am | #

Brian-

Do you think that we would not get humiliated by Ball State (11-1)?
The Hawaii bowl IS a lower profile bowl against a lower profile team.
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 11:59 am | #

WyoMike, don't underestimate the importance of those 3 scholarships. The NFL 53 man roster usually has a dedicated long-snapper. I think we can afford a scholarship on one.
Lowayne | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:01 pm | #

I think it's worth contemplating why Charlie and the gang chose to take their show to Honolulu. Some people have commented that perhaps it's "selfish" of them to go to Hawaii on Christmas Eve. They should have thought of the fans, these folks argue, because we, as fans, won't likely make the trip to Hawaii.

I think this is crap. The fans have shown their true loyalties this year. They've abandoned Charlie and the gang in droves. It's too bad, really, that the Irish won't tolerate rebuidling. I am not suggesting that the team played well all year. It didn't. But, this team is filled with young athletes. A sophomore starting quarterback who is protected by a bunch of freshmen, sophomores on the line? It's a rebuilding year - just like last year was - and I think the fans failed to allow this.

Now, next year if Charlie still is 6-6 (or, for that matter 8-4), it will be a different story. But, the guy went to two BCS bowls in four years. And you guys want to run him out of town. This is why no one wants to coach at ND.

Finally, it's worth noting that young and impressionable teams can benefit greatly from a road trip to a bowl game -- to play an equally "worthy" opponent. This is a good opportunity. Am I happy we're going to Hawaii instead of going to a BCS bowl? Of course not. But, this team hasn't proven it can beat anyone that's remotely strong. Let 'em go and see if they can pull out a win.
teo | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:02 pm | #

...I'd be more comfortable playing Rice...in fact...I'd be more comfortable playing the University of Washington...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:04 pm | #

Jim-

I would even play the Washington/Washington State All Star Team
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:06 pm | #

Anything on the coaches? Changes?
Charlie said we would see some any rumors? Anything?
irishman43 | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:10 pm | #

I'm not sure I understand Charlie's comment on how going to a bowl game will help the team by giving them more practice time. I'm starting to feel he is a bit delusional. Does he not realize we lost our last two games of the season and after starting 4-1 we ended up losing 5 of our last 7? How have any of our practices through our season shown any time of production? My heart hopes that maybe playing in a bowl game will fire up the troops and maybe we could end this god-awful streak of consecutive bowl game losses. However, my head tells me we will come out flat offensively, the defense will stop Hawaii until mid-way through the second (when five 3 and outs by ND's offense finally takes it's toll) and I will be saying deja vu. Once again Weis did not have his offense "prepared" to play....
Joseph | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:25 pm | #

Hawaii lost to some pretty good teams.
1. Florida 12-1
2. Oregon State 8-4
3. San Jose State 6-6
4. Boise State 12-0
5. Utah State 3-9 (substitute Sryacuse)
6. Cincinati 11-2 (29-24) @ home
I hope we don't take them for granted.
The team will need to be focused. They need to play for pride.
TBoneND | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:26 pm | #

The one thing to keep in mind is this: anyone in the country can beat up on Notre Dame if they play like they did against Syracuse. So, whether it's Ball State or Hawaii, it's all the same if the team plays like they did against Syracuse.

But, if they come out and play like they did against Stanford or North Carolina (until the collapse) or Purdue, they should beat Hawaii. And, for a young team to win a bowl game, that would be a great, great thing. We haven't done this in 15 years. It's time to turn the page -- win a game in the post-season and move ahead with good recruits.
teo | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:27 pm | #

Teo,

I'll give you 2005.. That is when CW came in, shook things up, woke up the players, convinced them they could win, and showed class in allowing a young cancer patient to call the first play at Washington (even despite being backed up on the goal line).

Since then CW has been disaster. 2006 was filled with more tv appearances than coaching appearances. We didn't deserve that BCS bid and showed it in the game. CW has failed to demonstrate any ability to build a team... has taken the team to new lows (losses to Navy/Syracuse as an example, non-competitive vs SC)... has not developed talent... and has failed to recruit o and d-lineman not named Golic...

It's sad that he continues to get every chance in the book.. plus the biggest contract, company jet, more time than prior inept coaches etc.. he deserves all the heat he is getting..

I don't put the bowl game on CW, this falls clearly on Jenkins and Swarbrick... most disappointed that the reasons we say we are going, don't held up..

ie 6-6 but need more practice time .. we are playing on the 24th.. two weeks??..boy that will make a difference..

ie money.. this will be a money loser (break even at best) even without the band..

ie chance to win... we're playing hawaii with 5 total losses and 4 to Florida, Boise State, Oregon State on the road and Cincy at home barely...

ie won't take a bowl that will interefere with finals.. finals end the 20th... guess what, this will interfere with finals

ie Christmas Eve... under prior admins this would be an absolute no go... no longer...

So, what are we "fighting for" at this point... I really don't see the upside..... What will a win against Hawaii do for this program?

On the flip side, what will a loss do to this progam??... I hate to even think about it..
jmc | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:38 pm | #

Why would Notre Dame take any team for granted? I mean ANY team?

It's a rhetorical question. Sadly, one they seem never to ask themselves.

I am afraid that Hawaii will rip Notre Dame on Christmas Eve. I base this on the Notre Dame's declining performance this season, and on Charlie Weis' inability to inspire good bowl game efforts from his teams 3 years ago and 2 years ago.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:43 pm | #

I can see why matt 09 is so disappointed...home loss to syracuse on senior day drops you from a gator bowl trip to no trip...but so it goes. If it makes you feel any better, being from the jacksonville area, I had my gator bowl tickets all lined up. I assume you were with the band when they traveled to the fiesta and sugar bowls 2 and 3 years ago.

The real sham with this bowl is practice time. The #1 reason that CW wanted to accept a bowl bid was extra practice time. Someone mentioned above that they don't practice during finals, and I assume that applies to reading days as well. Since they couldn't practice until they knew they had a bid, that leaves today through thursday and 12/21-12/23 for practice. 7 whopping days of extra practice. Be still my beating heart!
FloridaIrish | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 12:51 pm | #

Since they couldn't practice until they knew they had a bid, that leaves today through thursday and 12/21-12/23 for practice. 7 whopping days of extra practice. Be still my beating heart!

I think the practices they will have in Hawai'i count towards the number of extra days (I believe it's 20).
DJ | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:10 pm | #

True, DJ. It'll be at least a couple of extra weeks when it's all said and done.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:31 pm | #

jmc, not to beat a dead horse:

From the office of the registrar:

Please visit the Final Exam pdf to find the time, date, and location of your Fall Final Exam (Dec. 15-19)

The 20th is a Saturday, and exams are not normally scheduled on a Saturday.

Money-
Don't forget about the $1 million they get the years they do not play in a BCS game. Assume a rough estimate for the trip to Hawaii as $400,000 (no idea if this is even reasonable). They still come out ahead at 1 million (assuming a $400K payout that someone mentioned).

Recruiting: At least linemen named Golic are better then the zero O-linemen Ty signed in 2 out of his 3 years. Also, he signed 9 OL and DL (combined, not including TE) last year alone, and 6 the year before that.

I understand their losses came to good teams (WTE of Utah State), but who did their wins come against?:
Weber State (10-4, I-AA team)
Fresno State 7-5
Lousiana Tech 7-5
Nevada 7-5
New Mexico State 3-9
Idaho 2-10
Washington State 2-11

So take away their 1AA win, since they play 13 games, and you have a 6-6 team with 6 wins over teams with a 28-45 combined record (we had 6 wins against teams with a combined (22-50) record. Only a slight advantage in numbers, although our opponents came from Big10 (3), PAC10 (3), Big East (2), ACC (2) theirs come from WAC (8!!!), SEC(1), Big East(1), PAC10(2), IAA(1). Just food for thought. I would say we are pretty even as far as schedule results go (although Sagarin has ND at 58, Hawaii at 85)

Just food for thought
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:34 pm | #

"I'm in shock at offering a long snapper a full ride for 4 years when we need so much help in other areas."

Ask the Steelers how important a dedicated long snapper is.

Maybe, just maybe, with a LS on special teams, we won't have as many bumbled snaps for the kicking game and we can avoid further Syracuse debacles.
Matt J. | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:38 pm | #

Also, Epee Fencer...I feel your pain. For the first time in six years, I'm glad that the Packers are an out-of-market team.
Matt J. | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:38 pm | #

JMC has it about right. Re the money, I believe the total payout is $750k, but ND would get half of that, not quite $400k. If you consider CW's pay, I'm not even sure we break even with the hefty guaranteed money from the BCS - its hugely expensive to transport, feed and house a team in Hawaii for almost a week. But forget the money, its the infamy of losing to Hawaii in a pre-Christmas bowl (never mind pre-New Year's) that will really sting. There are dozens of ways ND can make this season worse, I guess you'd have to expect they would find at least one of them. I'm sorry, too gloomy? Hooray Catholic Disneyland! Where can I get some more overpriced ND gear? And can you help me find the AD's office, I hear he has a plan that will allow me to sell my tickets to Nevada and MSU fans next year. Anything to keep the money coming in to support our marquee sports, Basketball and Women's Soccer.

This season is an abomination.
Thundershaker | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:39 pm | #

Dang, Thundershaker. Way to bring in the gloom.

Weis's salary is a sunk cost. You can't tack that onto the bowl cost, since he would be getting paid anyway.

And the "Pre-New Years" stigma is a little less, since the International Bowl (1/3), Liberty (1/2) and GMAC (1/6) bowls are all after 1/1/09 and the Outback Bowl and Capital One Bowl are also both on 1/1 now.

And hey! Don't forget fencing, our other, other national champs. You go fencer!
Irish_Wertzy | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 1:47 pm | #

I can't believe we're even debating whether ND should accept the bowl invitation.

This team needs all the experience it can get. It needs to remember how to win. It needs to get a monkey off its back. It needs momentum. It needs something to look forward to. These are all important reasons for going to a bowl game.

Also, it's absurd, in my opinion, to suggest that because ND would sit out bowl games in the 1970s, that they should continue to do so now. In 1978, only 24 teams went to bowls. Today, 70 do. If you don't attend, you're at a disadvantage.

I'm not suggesting ND compromise its core values. But change does not equal compromise. The world has evolved since 1970, and it's okay for ND to evolve with it.
Hal | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 2:00 pm | #

More practice justifies a bowl game in Hawaii where the University will lose money? Seems to me the boys have been practicing since early August, and where has that gotten them? I would be all in favor of more practice if the person running the practice had even the slightest ability to teach, or coach. I hate to sound ancient, but I remember when Ned Joyce said we would not go to a bowl game unless we had a legitimate shot at a National Championship. People thought we would get crushed by a Texas powerhouse. We got edged one year, upset them the next. Now, we go to a bowl game so we can practice some more. I agree with the writer who pointed out the vast differences between the athletes at Florida and Bama, and the ND team. Men versus boys. Thank God none of the top 20 BCS teams would stoop so low as to accept a "bowl" bid to the Hawaii Bowl.
notrewood | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 3:05 pm | #

BowlandBend,

I've been posting on this site for a number of years, and it's always been a place to come for reasonable, interesting discussions of ND football. Please don't pollute the place with incendiary references to topics like abortion.

I mean this in a civil, respectful manner. Let's stick to football and leave the knuckleheaded stuff to the "first-time long-time" crowd who call into sports radio.

Agreed?
Hal | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 8:09 pm | #

Just so everyone is on the same page, the payout to each team is $750,000; the cost to ND...depending on how fancy THIS University chooses to make the experience is $1,000,000, mas o menos. Without the BCS money, it's a wash. No big deal. Trust me on this one.
Domerplayer | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 8:32 pm | #

Matt '09 --

Just curious -- How many road games (regular season football) does the band get to go to every year? One? Two? Anything within a reasonable bus ride, plus USC? I live in North Carolina and went to the UNC game, where we could have used the band (we had lots of fans, but the band would have been great!!) When the bus with the running backs on it arrived in the second quarter (we threw nothing but passes from empty backfields for the first two drives), I was hoping for some tubas and trumpets, too, but no such luck. How are your trips decided? BTW, my 6-year-old's first game @ ND was in '07 (BC) and he was as interested in the band as much as the football (maybe more). You guys are great, and thanks for all your hard work!
shoetrees | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 8:55 pm | #

I predict we lose. Why mess with a good thing?
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 12.08.08 - 9:33 pm | #

Sorry for the delay answering, shoetrees.

The band usually averages 2 road games a year, the ones that are easy to get to by bus.

On the even years, we go to MSU (we have a great relationship with them).
On the odd years, we go to Purdue.

Michigan is also on the odd years, but there was a pizza throwing incident a few years back where the band was basically rained on by UM fans throwing pizza and other half-eaten food while coming out of the tunnel. We took a break for a little while in that series but were back in '07.

In my four years:

'05: Pittsburgh, Purdue, Fiesta
'06: MSU, Sugar
'07: Penn St., Mich., Purdue (only year the band's ever gone to 3 games...team was 1-9 last year in games with the band)
'08: MSU, SC

So 2,1,3,1 in my four years...I didn't count the SC trip because it was paid for entirely by band fundraising, whereas the others are paid by the admin.

Bowl games are extras, but as my anger above betrays, we really enjoy the trip and were itching to get back to one.

Go Irish!

PS - Get that kid of yours a trombone and start him young! ;) But seriously, if you didn't last game, definitely take him to concert on the steps next time. The kids sitting in the front row are always doing some combination of covering there ears and gaping with amazement.
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 5:05 pm | #

To clarify, our band has a great relationship with their (MSU's) band. Their team can go jump.
Matt '09 | Email | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 5:07 pm | #

Pizza's at Michigan




interesting on ND's BCS share ... great incentive ... paid to lose !
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 12.10.08 - 2:02 pm | #