I think anybody with half a brain (which excludes most of the national media) knew that the students were not trying to hit the players. Anybody that has ever been to a ND game knows how classy and great the atmosphere is. Still a dumb move on the throwers' part, but I don't buy the national media's spin on it.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 1:18 pm | #

Even if it turns out that this snowball incident was malicious and directed at the players, that's not what is embarrassing. What is embarrassing is that this great University, which would not be what it is today without football, has let itself get to this point. Instead of worrying whether students or fans were throwing snowballs at the players, we should be worrying and focusing on what this University has become, and what the University has forgotten. It seems football is not the priority at Notre Dame any more. I just hope we all haven't forgotten that this school would be nothing if not for football.

Who cares whether the players were hit by snowballs? What, did it hurt them, through all those pads? Maybe if they were hitting harder and playing harder and worried about the embarrassment on the field, none of this would have happened.
Trevor | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 1:24 pm | #

In the first quarter we didn't expect/know we would be beat by one of the worst teams in college football (which i believe we are now). Those fans were just having fun and everyone is making WAY too much out of this.

Anyone who thinks the fans threw snowballs at the players because they were pissed off is just a damn fool. Plain and stupid.

That being said...I think Weis should be pummeled with snowballs for the remainder of his (hopefully short) career.
DayBreakBoys | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 1:34 pm | #

I was there at the game and can confirm that the snowballs were mostly during the first quarter and after a couple of announcements it appeared to calm down quite a bit.

In fact, it was pretty much just like the traditional marshmallow fight. For the most part it was students throwing at each other in the stands, but eventually people always try to hit the camera guy, orange-glove-guy, police, and see if they can throw them out onto the field. Basically, the snowballs started off as a dress rehearsal of the marshmallow fight at halftime.

I can't say for sure whether the direct hits on the players were intended as such (I'd guess that most weren't, but a few looked to be), but they did seem to have an effect on some members the team. After Pat Kuntz was hit during a defensive team meeting, he looked very pissed (yelling and gesturing at the student section). At one point I saw JC pick up some snow that had been thrown onto the field and toss it back toward the sideline (although I can't say whether that was in fun or out of frustration).

Toward the end of the game, I did see a couple of snowballs which were undoubtedly aimed at CW (one was slightly off the mark and another was blocked by an asst. before it hit him).

There was a pep rally a few weeks ago when a similar thing happened with glow-sticks, which were thrown at the team as they came onto the floor of the JACC, and this was long before the frustration with the season has reached the intensity it has now. I think if you give a bunch of (intoxicated) college students things which can be thrown in a large, public gathering, some people are going to throw them, regardless of how happy or frustrated they are with the team.
bpeters1 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 1:56 pm | #

The snowballs had largely ceased by halftime, although there was still the occasional isolated toss.

The shots at the state troopers were way out of line. Those guys are cool, they always would give those of us near the front of 30, 31, and 32 their take on plays that went to replay review. I suspect that one or two guys got arrested for throws that hit them.

I wonder about the effect of the throws into the bench on the outcome of the game. How much did it cost us to have players focusing on snowballs being thrown at them instead of on the game at hand?
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 2:09 pm | #

In my day, there were tons and tons of loose bricks and smooth river stones scattered all over the stadium, and if we ever had to punt, thousands of bricks and stones would rain down on the team. That's how it was in my day. We didn't complain about. We liked it. FYI.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 2:22 pm | #

I was also at the game, opposite the press box, so I had a pretty good view of the student section. My thoughts, in no particular order:

1. The snowballs started in the student section, but were being thrown from just about everywhere by the end of the game. They appeared to taper off after somebody hit a trooper, after which quite a few stormed the stands and I think found the guy who threw it, or at least found somebody who looked guilty and made an example of him.

2. I saw quite a few aimed at the Syracuse sideline towards the end of the game, a couple hitting Syracuse players and coaches. One hit No. 88, who got pretty worked up and was yelling at the thrower to meet him outside. Another appeared to hit the kicker in the grill, and one hit the OC in the back of the head.

3. Quite a few were aimed the that damned dancing orange and the cheerleaders. At least one landed in one of the megaphones, which drew a laugh. The cheerleaders seemed to be laughing about it, and why not...they were winning.

4. Snowballs from the student section were definitely aimed at the cameraman and the tv timeout ref (the dude in the orange mits).

5. ND players getting hit were collateral damage. No doubt about it.

6. The stadium announcer made three announcements about it. The first was something to the effect of "Ha ha, snowballs. Please stop." The second was tinged with quite a bit of anger as he announced something like "I hope you're happy, you just hit one of your own players." The third was "I know this isn't a bulletin, but you'll have plenty of snow to play with from now until April."

7. At the first time out, the golf team was honored in the north end zone, and quite a few snowballs were aimed at them. One was caught by the guy at the south end of the group, which drew a cheer. After that, the subsequent honorees were marched out towards the middle of the endzone.

8. The snowball throwing seemed to be adolescent humor, rather than an expression of any particular emotion. "Sophomoric" is probably the best word to describe it. The offending parties next to me and a couple of rows behind me were actually in the age range of probably between 9 and 13. They had pretty good arms. We should look into recruiting them for our baseball team. I was a little surprised, though, that their parents did not stop them.

10. Most of the snowballs being thrown were landing in the stands. I'd say a 20-1 ratio of snowballs thrown to snow balls making it onto the field. Fans sitting in front of me who got hit were pretty upset about getting hit.

11. Everyone around me (absent those getting hit) was amused by it. As somebody a couple rows behind me pointed out, snow, youth, alcohol, and bad football equals snowballs.

12. The national media is going to and already has blown this out of proportion. That being said, I'm happy for them to focus on anything other than our on-field performance.
DCDomer | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 2:36 pm | #

DCDomer about summed it up. Sadly, this really is fuel for the national media.

I do have one point to add. Manti Te'o, perhaps the best linebacker recruit in the country, was on the sidelines making an official visit from Hawaii. Yes, he was hit with snowball. Unless I confused him with another person.
Lowayne | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 2:54 pm | #

DC, thanks for the eyewitness report. It's what I figured had happened.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 2:54 pm | #

...the old adage that a coach's third year record will be his epitaph certainly holds again...
jim/redondo beach | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 3:11 pm | #

Watching the game from the warm comfort of my living room, I don’t remember H or H commenting on snowball throwing. However, I figured as much with the small patches of snow on the field that were not there at game time. Their was a lot of booing going on which it was impossible to tell who it was being directed at near the end of the game. I just assumed it was for our future x-coach.

Shame and a pox on anyone throwing at the players. Remember a game during the Holtz-era I attended and the TV time-out guy was getting killed with oranges.

The inevitable question of a bowl game is going to come up after USC. Let the players vote and decide, they’re the ones who are going to have to play in it.
Subway Alumni | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 3:15 pm | #

Face it--the national media HATES ND--it hates that ND is Catholic, what ND stands for, it hates what it perceives as arrogance by ND, it hates just about everything about ND. Tom Coyne of the AP, a journalistic hack, wrote a column about yesterday's game that illustrates this hatred. ND is accused of being racist, money grabbing, etc. but bottom line--it graduates more student athletes in many successful athletic programs than any other college or university in the world but the media cannot stomach that.
lush | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 3:27 pm | #

being an ND alum and from philly, who ever made the comment about philly can s*ck my ass. just like this incident at ND is blown out of proportion, so was the philly snowball incident over 40 yrs ago.

snowballs were thrown yesterday as there is no reason to maintain decorum anymore. the team is pathetic, nobody expects it to get any better anytime soon, and you go into the stadium half expecting to be embarrassed by end of game. its not a surprise that people arrive and leave pissed off.
belocki | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 3:41 pm | #

Once upon a time, when ND was a legitimate bowl contender, students threw oranges on the field during the game to represent our wish for an Orange Bowl bid. Those days, late in the season, the dining hall did not serve oranges for fear of students stockpiling them. Point being, if there is something to throw, drunk college kids will throw them. They often went on the field, we even got penalties, but it just is part of college sports...didn't have anything to do with students turning on players. Yesterday's hothead player who turned and indicated he wanted to "go" with whomever had thrown the snowball should be disciplined, just like the kid the police hauled away. The rest, it sounds like, was just plain fun.
domergirl90 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 3:42 pm | #

I was there and the snow balls were consistantly raining down on the players, the people in the yellow seats and the area where recruits typically stand. Was it funny? Let me ask you this, say you are sitting at your desk studying for an exam and having a rather tough time grasping the issues and some guy decides to randomly lob a piece of paper at you or your desk. At first, you laugh, then, it starts to bug you and then, you stand up and yell for the guy to knock it off. Are you pissed? Well, that is how the players felt. It was a stupid thing to do and was never funny or amusing.
Dick Hertz | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 3:45 pm | #

The university has an obligation to remove the snow and they didn't. There are many people who pay a lot of money to go to those games. If the snow came down Saturday morning then they could have had an excuse, but it didn't. They should have paid someone to remove it and the problem of snowballs goes away.

Some people look forward all year or even a lifetime to going to one game and they have to sit in 8" of snow under their feet. If you are going to charge professional prices then get professionals to do your dirty work.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 4:00 pm | #

Hey, you arrogant, spoiled, born with silverspoon in your mouth pissants!

I'll be on sight next week at USC with a bunch of frozen grunion for sale that you can throw at our players. This is your chance, for you
f'king morons, to put the Georgia Tech fans to shame!

You are disgusting!
twogun1970 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 4:11 pm | #

Forget the snowballs.

The team's performance is the only embarrassing thing we should be talking about.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 4:17 pm | #

"...this great University, which would not be what it is today without football...I just hope we all haven't forgotten that this school would be nothing if not for football"

Seriously?
Sad | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 4:18 pm | #

Right on, Joe.
Louie | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 4:25 pm | #

Tom Coyne went to ND....for what it is worth.

Kids do stupid things and throwing
snowballs from on high is stupid. The team's piss poor performance is no excuse.

And yeah I think of Ga Tech when projectiles are thrown from the stands{against ND in 1978.}.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 4:43 pm | #

Sorry this isn't a snowball comment but I wanted someone to give an opinion.

I think I've wrote this about five times but I'll say it again. The offensive line is the problem and has been the problem since Weis was hired. Whether it's communication between Weis/Haywood/Latina on blocking schemes or Latina just simply can't coach, the offensive line is the problem. If the line were able to get the job done these other problems (defense, play calling, stupid penalties) wouldn't hurt as bad. I bet if you look at the top ten programs you'll find that they have the same problems that we do but they overcome them because they are able to move the ball with great consistency. That being said it is CW's job to fix that problem. Long story short: Weis could still be succesful but only if the OL starts playing great. Comments?
bobby | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 4:48 pm | #

Gaffney & Teo the two recruits + the third kid from Cali. had a great time winging snowballs.
Get over it. They're students in a stadium full of snow.
You want nerds go to MIT.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 5:14 pm | #

Why in the hell Charlie Weis hasn't done everything in his power to assure that the Offensive Line play isn't a lot better may be discussed for years. Any coach, from Pop Warner on up, knows that if your O line can't or won't block, you don't have, ahem, a snowball's chance in Hades of being successful. Why he has been so obstinate and obtuse is a question for the ages. My wife who, God bless her, knows next to nothing about football, screams "BLOCK SOMEBODY" at the TV screen every week because even she can tell those lugs ain't doing anything to keep drives alive. Our O line is so damn lethargic and it moves with all of the passion and finesse of a three toed sloth, and nothing ever changes! I won't waste my time bitching about Clausen or any back until the O line actually improves. And it doesn't appear that is going to happen. Domerplayer will tell me, again, that it's not Latina's fault, it's the scheme. All I know is when your line averages 6'5" 310 lbs, you should be able to at least go forward and accidentally block someone now and then! These guys are so nonchalant and low energy it's unbelievable. I don't know why the supposedly high credentialed Latina can light a fire under these guys, but why Weis can't see with his own eyes that the O line is AWFUL is something I hope Mike Haywood writes a book about.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 5:14 pm | #

Voice:
Fabulous post. You are dead right on. Our OL play yesterday and in other games was and has been atrocious and after 11 games inexcusable. If they were not blocking, they were holding. Sometimes they were standing around looking for who to block while the RB or QB was stymied. We cannot even average two damn yards a carry. Unbelievable! And how someone supposedly as smart as Weis cannot see this defies logic. Weis continues to run a single back offense that has NOT worked!! PERIOD!!
lush | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 5:24 pm | #

Here is a quick fix that I say only half-jokingly. After listening to Tom Pagna for years and reading his columns in BGI, I suggest that CW bring him on as the OC for a year or two. Pagna may be close to 80 but he sure as hell knows how to call plays.
pangborn77 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 5:26 pm | #

WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE OL ISN'T BLOCKING! On almost every play I saw one or all of them giving the good ole lookout block!
Nothing like seeing five OL guys standing over a qb or rb who just got slammed b/c the OL can't/won't/unable too do their job.
Danirish | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 5:30 pm | #

This thread sums up everything that's wrong about Notre Dame and why everyone hates the university: everyone is so high on their moral high horse.

Oh my God, college kids were throwing snowballs. Who cares?!? They were snowballs. It's rude, yes, but not a crime. Have you ever heard of snowball fights?

I'd be far more concerned with Notre Dame becoming a national punchline due to the embarassment of the football team and the coaches (the players do not get a pass either, they committed the dumb penalties, dropped the passes, missed tackles, etc.) than a few students throwing snowballs.
Sean | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 5:44 pm | #

And to the first comment Steve...having a "classy" atmosphere is not something to really be proud of at a football game. I went to the Stanford game, have been to college games across the country, and it was by far the weakest, saddest, quietest crowd I have heard in my life. It was a cathedral. It was embarassing, I felt like I should be sipping tea.

The game of football and the true passion associated with it is rapidly passing Notre Dame by. And I'm a fan! It's sad.
Sean | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 5:46 pm | #

i'll bet the players are glad the national focus is on snowballs and not their rotten, unmotivated, embarassing play on the field...
brian custer | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 5:51 pm | #

It's time to put bullsh*t comparisons to Philly to bed. How can you, in the same breath, bitch about the way the national news media is covering this story while simultaneously beating the dead horse that is 'Philly fans are jackasses'?
bw | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 5:56 pm | #

Maybe its because Veterans Stadium has its own judge and jail on site....
SPT | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 6:12 pm | #

My son is a student at ND and was in the student section yesterday. The snowball incident, trumped up by the AP, Rivals and others, is by and large national media bullshit at its best.
lush | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 6:45 pm | #

Some reality for those who read the Florida newspaper article on Urban's desire to return to ND:

AP Poll: 'Bama #1, Florida #2.

Meyer's built a powerhouse (or rather, resurrected it) from the Zook days. However, Zook never took UF to the depths that Ty took ND. Assuming he beats 'Bama, he'll be in his 2nd NC game in 3 years. No dip is on the horizon, as he gets speedier replacements like Chris Rainey everytime he graduates a senior. He can bring in JUCO's, can keep players who shoot off AK-47's in hotel rooms, and essentially as long as he wins (which he's set up to do), he can reign over the program like a king.

Do any of you REALLY think he'd leave Florida just because his daughter is set to graduate high school or whatever?

And if he did...are you so desperate that you could handle the regular arrests of ND players being national headlines in the off-season? Am I the only person not comfortable with that?
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 6:45 pm | #

I was at the game. The snowball throwing really only happened in the first quarter and finally died down after the announcer said, "You'll have plenty of time to play in the snow until April in South Bend."

But yeah a number of players were hit. Even if they were not aiming for the players, they did purposefully aim for policemen, ushers, the TV cameraman, the TV timeout referee for NBC, and even our cheerleaders. It was pretty obvious watching the trajectory of the snowballs that these balls were thrown purposefully, and they weren't simply missing cameramen and accidentally hitting others.

Honestly, I can't say for sure that we were trying to hit our own players. It's entirely possible that some balls were thrown to purposefully hit our players. Pretty much anything moving on the sidelines near the student section was fair game as far as those jerks were concerned.

A few balls were thrown during half time as part of the senior marshmallow fight. But yeah it was pretty much over in the first quarter.

I got so cold that I couldn't stay until the 4th so I don't know if any balls were thrown later. (I left
after the TD to Tate in the 3rd I thought everything was safe at that point... :( )

Either way, the fact that any balls were thrown at all onto the field is embarrassing. I'm embarrassed, not so much because of the loss but because of the poor judgment of our seniors. That's right... most of the snowballs were thrown from the senior/junior sections. Sure maybe only a few students were involved, but there were a lot of snowballs flying... there must have been dozens of people involved.

Disgusting. How far have we sunk? Some of those balls were not soft powder, but my cousin, who was in the front row near the NBC half time desk in the NW endzone said that some were actually chunks of ice! That's just dangerous!

This is only going to reinforce the perception that ND people are arrogant jerks. :(
wkurtz94 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 6:47 pm | #

I live 60 miles from Philly. Their football and hockey fans are classless. When Michael Irvin suffered his career ending injury in Philly and was being taken off the field on a wooden platform by the paramedics, fans were shouting "Drop him!". I was at a hockey game (Stanley Cup finals) when Ron Hextall whacked an opposing player behind the knee and received a 5 minute major. Fan response? Inappropriate penalty because no blood was drawn.
pangborn77 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 6:48 pm | #

I was sitting in the Syracuse corner yesterday and heard quite a few comments that added to the misery. Th Cuse fans commented how quiet the ND fans were the entire game...they expected more noise.

As for the snowballs I saw them the entire game and a constant barrage on the Syracuse cheerleaders. This was the worst experience I have ever had at ND.
IMIRISH | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 7:09 pm | #

Can we start the replacement candidate thread? With our want of no more OJT who is out there that we can grab? Possibility of Ianello getting the promotion?
DieselKnight | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 7:39 pm | #

IN the same way the writer attempts to admonish the few offenders, and not paint all students with blame, as a Philadelphia, and Subway Alumnus since 1966, I resent the implication that all Philly fans are snowball throwers. You're smarter than that. Act it.

Kevin Gunn
Havertown PA
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 8:19 pm | #

lush, your comments on how great nd is and how the media just out to get nd is precisely why people won't let it down. your post just reinforces that arrogance thought, whether it is true or not.
poopmaster | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 8:48 pm | #

lush:

Funny the players and coaches at both schools didn't think it was "bullshit." Neither did the AP or the cops. (I really had no idea the cops were involved in this media conspiracy against ND). But since your 18-something kid goes there and you weren't even in the state, let's just take your word for it.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 8:58 pm | #

All I'm saying, again, is that if we had a contending team, no one would have assumed the worst of the "snowball incident"...like when it was oranges in '88. But because fans are pissed off at the Weis system, and the media LOVES to paint any negative ND picture they can, it gets ink. If it were oranges for the bowl, it would have been a blip on the screen. Bring back real football to Notre Dame and the rest will take care of itself...and yes, an offensive line with some jump would be a great place to start.
domergirl90 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 9:04 pm | #

notre dame is not philadelphia?

only in that is hasnt won a championship lately.

as an ND alum living in philly i'm pretty pissed you could diss a city on such a whim.

we had a few jackasses throw snowballs once, so has notre dame.

BGSky has lost this reader for good... sorry i have a world series dvd to watch

ps- b lidge nd grad took us home
tmac | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 9:11 pm | #

domergirl90:

"...the media LOVES to paint any negative ND picture they can, it gets ink."
******

Any proof of that our are we just feeling a little sorry for ourselves?
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 9:13 pm | #

No need at all for the Philadelphia crack. Was a great post until you denigrated yourself with such a stupid comment. As an ND alum and Philadelphia native I am disappointed that you would take such a cheap, lazy, pathetic shot.

Embarrassing.
NDPatman | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 9:20 pm | #

Philadelphia "fans" historically have a horrible reputation for turning on their teams, and not just for one snow-throwing incident. Listen to an AM sports call-in show in Philly and the calls always start "I'm a big fan of the team, BUT...." Philly fans like to complain. All of the Philly people getting upset by the comment should chill out, Jay's not talking about you personally by name or anything. I'm sure there are Miami fans who show up through thick and thin, but the reputation is that the 'Canes play in an empty stadium if the team isn't in the top 10. It's a stereotype. Relax.

There are greater issues for us to yell at each other about--like can we get Frank Leahy's DNA cloned in time to coach for next season.
Nate | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 9:26 pm | #

Speaking of arrogance, ever hear a press conference by the "beloved" Joe Paterno or his call-in radio show? He makes Weis look humble.
PAALUM | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 9:33 pm | #

The whole thing was an embarrassment.

Started at the pep rally where CW had the senior manager "roast" his players.. he made no commnets about his own players and left it to the manager..come on..

Then to the game where the seniors weren't announced/recognized.

Snow was not cleared from the stadium which personally thought was ridiculous even before the snowballs started

I was sitting under the pressbox -- snowballs were thrown at playes and at coaches -- without question. Kuntz got hit while the defense was meeting with Brown. Another player got hit in the face twice.. many were thrown toward the priest on the sideline... all was ridiculous. Our student body looked like drunken arrogant jerks. Indiana state police hsuling students out was the only thing that slowed it down until the end of the game..

finally, the absolute ineptitude on the field.... penalties, burning timeouts, inability to run the ball on the 108th ranked rush defense, predictable play calling, no execution, attempting 50 yard field goals, defense folding with another lead, 2nd and 47,losing to a 20 point dog... pick any of the above -- ridiculous..

Have to agree with whoever said this was their worst experience at ND -- been going many many years and seen many debacles but this one takes the cake.. from top to bottom.
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 9:33 pm | #

Messpo

Let's see--ND is accused of being racist for buying out TW's contract. Have you heard cries of racism coming out of Seattle? Why not? Let's see-Paterno accused ND of selling its soul for money when it entered into the NBC contract. Have you been to Beaver Stadium with outrageously priced luxury boxes and electronic commercial advertising everywhere? Has the media made any mention of that? Let's see--the media trashed ND for its handling of Urban Meyer--too bad it did not do any homework to determine why Meyer really did not come to ND. The posters on this Board could come up with dozens of examples of media bias towards ND. This isn't an exercise in self-pity, it is reality.
esquire | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 9:42 pm | #

It is a fact that in 1968 Philadelphia fans threw snowballs at Santa Claus.

It is a fact that in 1999 Philadelphia fans jeered Michael Irvin as he lay motionless on the field following the neck injury that ended his career.

It is a fact that beginning in 1997, Philadelphia created a special court (complete with judge) in Veterans Stadium to deal with frequent lawlessness among fans.

Like it or not, Philadelphia sports fans have a miserable national reputation, and that reputation is based on facts, not cheap shots.

Jay's statement that Notre Dame fans should not resemble Philadelphia fans is reasonable. Philadelphia posters' angry reaction is sadly typical.
Joe Magarac | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 9:47 pm | #

You all should check out Charlie's presser...

Takes zero responsibility...

and yes does talk about the snowballs.."wish it could have been avoided."
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 10:03 pm | #

From a guy that's been hit in the face from a snowball when I wasn't in a 'snowball fight', it bloody well sucks. If I was one of those players I would have invited any one of those pussies to come down to field level and show me just how tough they really think they are.
VicPaul | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 10:18 pm | #

Does anyone think we should take the bowl?
Mexican Irish | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 10:40 pm | #

Also anybody know any coachs that are out there. Pro or College?
Mexican Irish | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 10:45 pm | #

The snowballs are the ND football players. They are hurled around with out any rhyme or reason. Unaware of where they're going or in any control of where they land.

The people thowing the snowballs are the ND coaching staff. Randomly thowing stuff out there with the hope that one will make a huge splash from far away.

Any way you look at it, its just another low point in ND football history.

We were all misled from day 1. "Tough & Nasty" and almost 4 years in, not one single year has shown any hope of being tough and/or nasty. Like Davie, like Willingham, and now like Weis we all wanted to have great success on the field and it has not worked out.

Call me crazy, but I'd take George O'Leary right about now.
Rome | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 10:52 pm | #

actually it's not a fact that philly fans threw snow balls at santa claus. we booed the shit out of santa clause b/c it was a guy in an absolutely horrible costume - we were booing the effort not the character, the "snowball" incident happened over a decade later.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/ f...snowballs_x.htm

just another lazy attempt at attacking my hometown, nice work.

i do remember a few chicago fans deciding to beat up a first base or two over the last years. obviously chicago is a white trash capital of the US b/c of these two.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com...ls_whitesox_ap/

let's see how the two towns handled MJ's final season:

The man himself: "The Philly people did a great job. They gave me the biggest inspiration, in a sense," Jordan said. "Obviously, they wanted to see me make a couple of baskets and then come off. That was very, very respectful, and I had a good time."

The 76ers had a couple of pregame surprises for Jordan, presenting him with a golf cart driven onto the court by Moses Malone and Julius Erving, then having longtime Chicago Bulls public address announcer Ray Clay introduce Jordan with his familiar inflection of "From North Carolina ..."

The standing ovation that Jordan received lasted about three minutes, with Jordan smiling, nodding and chewing gum throughout. The group Boyz II Men sang "It's So Hard To Say Goodbye" between the first and second quarters as a montage of Jordan's career highlights was shown on the scoreboard.

chicago: how did chicago treat ray clay for trying to be classy with jordan's introduction the previous visit? you fired his ass. now i know it wasnt everyone, just like the white sox incident, but if you're going to blame all of philadelphia for everything you read, then this one's on you.

god bless steve bartman
tmac | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 11:11 pm | #

I've often wondered if actors that are in terrible movies know they are in terrible ones. Did Travolta know that Battlefield Earth was a flaming turd, but sold out anyway to get paid?

That being said, does the offensive line think they are being well-coached? Or do they think the coaching is bad? (Or were they all just vastly overrated recruits and no coach could help them?)
www.southbendblarney.com | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 11:17 pm | #

Disgraceful. This was the first time I have ever walked out of the stadium and felt embarassed to be a ND fan. The conduct/performance both on and off the field is not what ND stands for. We are better than that...and if not then the administration needs to get it right.

You can make all the excuses you want about "kids will be kids". I saw four adults carted out of the stadium for throwing snowballs and acting like A#$holes. They were not 18 years old.
IMIRISH | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 11:45 pm | #

esquire:

You have carefully proven that rival coach Paterno (who actually won something this year and for many years before too) is no fan of big money in college sports, and that some have accused Notre Dame of racism and insensitivity for the shameful disparate treatment of Ty Willingham, its first African-American coach. By the way some in that same chorus were Fr. Hesburg, Fr. Malloy ("embarrassed" was the word he used), AD Kevin White, Rocket Ismail, Chris Zorich, Aaron Taylor, and just about everyone else with a conscience. Public figures all but not one media figure. As for Meyer, apparently he took his father Bud's advice who told his son: "The climate's better down in Florida. The tradition is better at Notre Dame," "I told him, if he wants to win, go to Florida." (Palm Beach Post 12/3/04). Seemed like good advice, no?

I though that lawyers worked off facts and not emotion. Must be the law school you went to I suppose. Mine wouldn't let me get away with that sort of foolish argument!
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 11:48 pm | #

Jay,

Your post re: Philly was justified. Obviously, not all Philly fans are asshole drunks, but after seeing the reaction Irvin got when he was carried off on a stretcher, I joined the rest of America in being thankful that I don't have fellow fans like that. Sweet Killadelphia. . .
ndfootball4ever | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 11:48 pm | #

I'm sorry for the Philadelphia crack. I was thinking of the Santa Claus incident, of course. But if you tell me it wasn't that bad, I'll take your word for it.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.23.08 - 11:50 pm | #

Snow balls don't hurt much
not half as bad as watching
Tradition melt away
Straight Edge | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:00 am | #

Straight Edge:

If you mean the tradition of the last 20 years I suggest you get a blowtorch.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:07 am | #

The tradition began a slow death that day in 1993, when that awful BC Eagle gouged out our hearts. I was there...as a freshman. That team was great. Hey. They even won a bowl game!

Lately, it's dying HARD though.

The Crap Product-along wiht the Denial and Arrogance and Ego exhibited by such a HUGE Percentage of ND Fans and Alums is far more embarrassing and pathetic to me than any number of snowballs chucked at whoever.

Yeah, Urban Meyer can't wait to take this job. I mean, why WOULDN'T he want to trade in what he's got going in G'Ville for this National Joke?

The whole Idea that ND can just get whoever they want because they are ND is so pathetic and played out.

This whole "we're not Philadelphia" thing is weak too.

Anyone within miles of "Michiana" would sell their soul to live in Philly. If they have half a brain.

The Gang from "Always Sunny in Philadelphia" is more competent and self-aware than the Current ND "Coaching Staff."

And, sadly, many of these Smug Tools who claim Notre Dame.

More and more, I think Weis is exactly the right guy to represent what ND has become.

And THAT, folks, is Truly Tragic.

Night night.
Straight Edge | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:16 am | #

Straight Edge-you should make up a blog about the current state(ready to rise again in the post-Weis era) of ND football. I like your writing style and I agree with most of your perspectives.

I gave Weis the BC game to redeem himself after that horrible Pitt game. Now look where we are at--a return to the disasters years of 2003, 2001 or even 1985. At least we have some talent ready to go to a college coach that truly wants to win, can win and does what is needed to win.
No more twirling whistles | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:39 am | #

@ Sean

I get where you are coming from with the quiet crowd. But ND should absolutely be proud of the way its fans conduct themselves. I too have been to a lot of football games across the country. Some places are embarassing with the vulgarity, fighting, etc... that goes on. I like ND's atmosphere. Although the fans could be louder, they don't need to change imo.
Steve | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:45 am | #

Thanks for the plug, Voice. For the 6th time, It's Charlie and his scheme, but a bit more has emerged. We field two teams: the defense plays with emotion and considerable skill at a number of positions. The offense plays with no emotion and has great skill only at the wide receiver positions. Clausen has regressed, we have average running backs who never have a chance in the offense we run and the line apparently drills only in QB protection. The offense is all Charlie: the defense is no Charlie. I guess after yesterday I've reached (reluctantly) the same conclusion as many with whom I have spoken who know this game far better than me. Weis is a fraud. I suspect we will have him for another year. Next Saturday was always going to be ugly but if he has truly lost this team as it appears he has, it could be awful. Too late for a change this year, but Bill Lewis as an interim? Hell, I'm going Loonie Tunes. Erase that thought. Anyway, Haywood is gone. I"m sure Latina wants out--he doesn't need this crap and as they used to say in Brooklyn, "Wait 'till next year." For what, I'm less sure.
Domerplayer | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 1:00 am | #

A teething toddler has given me time to check Tmac's link re: Philadelphia fans throwing snowballs at Santa. It says:

co-authors Glen Macnow and Anthony L. Gargano contend Philly fans get a bum rap in frequent mentions about that 1968 day when they hurled snowballs at Santa Claus. Not that they didn't do it.

I think ND fans could stand to be a bit rowdier, as I seem to remember us being. My dad took me to an ND-Miami home game at night in the Faust era. I remember seeing:

* A student parking lot half-filled with junk cars, likely handed down by parents;

* A tailgate lot full of RVs with people in plaid pants stumbling around and handing out beer to anyone who wanted it;

* Signs for a "Sodom and Gomorrah" party at Dillon Hall;

* A mounted deer head stuck out of a dorm window next to a sign saying "Buck's a Stag. Kosar's a Fag";

* The drunken student body try to tear down a goal post either before the game started or after the first ND score or both (memory fades).

I couldn't wait to go to school there, and I had a great four years toward the end of the Holtz era. But even then you could see things changing, as the students got smarter and the alumni got richer. I started seeing:

* A student lot full of new SUVs purchased by well-to-do parents;

* Alumni drinking wine at tailgates (!) and eating from shrimp plates, with few or no plaid pants in evidence;

* All of the typical channels for student enthusiasm (Dillon pep rally; free beer at tailgates; etc.) blocked and/or threatened with prosecution.

* An administrator (Beauchamp) who more or less took the "Fight" out of the "Fighting Irish" by only approving merchandise that said "Irish."

Notre Dame the institution is becoming becoming more and more like Harvard and Yale, and less and less like the scrappy "Fighting" school of yore. In many ways, that's a good thing. But it also appears to mean a lack of passion and a lack of linemen who can run block.
Joe Magarac | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 5:44 am | #

THE CHIMP doesn't throw snowballs. He throws poop, though. Hire the chimp.

Yes.

.
elnolewis | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 6:31 am | #

Voice,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Scheme is bs. Inside zone is inside zone, blocking schemes are the same all over. If you run inside zone you have the same blocking scheme at ND,Florida, Podunk. This line gets blown up consistently. A team that gave up an average of 200plus yards a game looked like the best rush defense in the country. No aggressiveness, no physical intimidation, no nothing. Four years of the same, even if it was scheme dont you think Latina would have it down by now? If Latina and Weis disagreed on scheme so much, why didnt Latina leave after any of the years he has been there? I dont know, but it seems to me that the OLine isnt responding to Clausen anymore. I wonder if there is a reason for his regression? He has gotten a lot more pressure and has been hit a lot more since the second half of the NC game.
DB12 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 7:06 am | #

Thanks, Belocki, for summarizing everything about Philly fandom in one short post: you have both the below-average intelligence ("you [sic] mother") and the mean-spiritedness ("chokes on turkey bone").

I *like* Philadelphia and Philadelphians. But I'll never understand why: a) they are such miserable sports fans; and b) they are so proud of a).
Joe Magarac | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 7:55 am | #

Reluctantly I think Charlie should be let go right after the SC game. But only if ND has a signed contract from Brian Kelly.

Charlie reminds me of Kuharich--same bombast.

OL is a disgrace 74 looks like Young Frankenstein out there. What is inexperience all about--I believe 3 out of 5 OL starters have at least 1 full season of starting--but can't run block or protect QB at all.

Whole offense looks completely confused.

Every week it's some type of breakdown somewhere--final nail of incompetent coaching is the 2 onside kicks ag. Navy--ND looked completely clueless--even HS players could do better.

I think Weis has lost this team--sort of like a Captain Ahab limping around and crew knows only disaster ahead.

Finally, 2009 recruits are going to be poached like never before.

Go to any Bowl and just hand check to Weis.
John | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 8:27 am | #

There are sh*t fans everywhere...wasn't it in Chicago that some guy and his son jumped onto the field and assaulted a first base coach?

If there is snow in a stadium at any sporting event, let alone a CFB game, snowballs will be thrown.
RedMahoney | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 8:35 am | #

mespo727272 -- yes, as a perpetual media watcher (brother a sportscaster for FOX), I can attest that the media is negative to ND.

Recent proof -- Sunday Detroit Free Press, sports section, page 4, left column, snowballs got more column inches than that ridiculous loss...but both got ink. Try to find that much written on a day we a) just lose a normal game or 2) Win (I know, it's hard to find those days.

Not just hurt feelings...that'll come next week when we have to play that damn horse!
domergirl90 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:01 am | #

Hmm...maybe this is how Philly got a bad rap? A few bad eggs...

This article is hypocritical in that regard. Reporters push the Philly reputation when it's 'simply some boneheaded [fans] goofing around.' I'm proud of my fellow Philly fans, especially after this season.
Dan | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:27 am | #

Have you considered hiring Gregg Robinson?
dex | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:31 am | #

Bill Dwyer, LA Times Sports Editor Emeritus. ND grad mid 60's
http://www.latimes.com/sports/ la...,3613499.column
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:33 am | #

Coach Jerry Faust. LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/ co...0,931474.column
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:39 am | #

DB12 makes a great point. If, as my good buddy DomerPlayer insists, "it's the scheme", then is Latina so mentally challenged that four years into the Weis regime he still isn't able to grasp nor coach the damn scheme!?
And the genius' offense is just plain crummy. What I wouldn't give to see the good ol' Power I. One spindly legged running back and a QB who only runs in reverse does us no good on 2nd and 4 or 3rd and 2.
Voice in the Wilderness | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:41 am | #

Holtz was successful in getting admissions relaxed for some key players and I know for a fact that there was steroid use on the team. Sure, Lou looked the other way, but that's because other programs back then, especially MSU and Miami, were filthy with steroids as well.
ND was juiced and chippy. Then "Tarnished Dome" hubbub hit and ND has never been the same.
caup | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:47 am | #

Philly sucks, get over it.
Irish Mickey | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:53 am | #

My Irish brothers, we are not so different. I urge you to throw your despot capitalist glutton into the void of history, hire Brian Kelly, and join the Communist Football Revolution. For though I hate you, Michigan and Notre Dame must return to prominence and send the heathen Southern powers and their emerging Western allies into the abyss.

Workers of the world, throw off your shackles! We will rule the college football universe, as the superpowers we so deserve to be!
dex | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:55 am | #

Yes, 'The Rivalry' has become like the rivalry a fire hydrant has with a dog for ND for the last decade or so. The previous ten years, it was the other way around.

May the wheel turn again. May Notre Dame stop being the team that does nothing but raise the self-esteem of other schools' programs.
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:55 am | #

A friend of mine who is a big notre dame fan has season hockey tickets. This past Friday he asked me if I wanted his seats for this coming weekend.

His wording:

"Now on Saturday do you want these tickets? Let me ask you, do you want to watch Notre Dame have a chance at winning or watch notre dame lose?"

This was before Saturday's fiasco. It is beyond embarrassment that I some bum (a rocket scientist bum) in the stands called the down distance and result of every single running play on Saturday with 99% accuracy and 100% precision. That game was my last one here and I suppose it is a fitting balance to my first being a field storming win over #3 Michigan. If anything this season has taught me two things, Charlie Weis while good intentioned cannot coach basic fundementals and Jimmy Clausen is a callous hothead, who while still "young" (he is 21 for cripes sake) acts like a child. He has steadily regressed since halfway through the North Carolina game and barring a report of injury has done nothing to redeem himself. Is it justified to call out someone 5 years my junior playing at a level that I could never hope to compete? Probably not. But my personal experiences with him have been anything but positive. If he throws into double coverage to the tight end one more time... Repeatedly I see him shoving defenders who have tackled him. Is it any wonder that his lineman don't seem overly concerned about his particular welfare? A child like that does not lead men. He schedules press conferences to announce his commitment...for himself. As long as he is quarterback, we will not see the type of play from that position a Dayne Christ could provide. This was an individual who even before coming to this university was a leader in keeping his recruitment class together. Can you imagine Jimmy sticking that out? The kid needs to be benched, a message needs to be sent.

I am not angry from Saturday's game or malaise, I just don't care. Saturday was effectively the death bell for Notre Dame football. Who will want to coach here? How can they expect to get anyone to keep recruiting at the level that Charlie does? In a new college landscape of Thursday night games and coverage all over the television Notre Dame is no longer a sole provider of national exposure. What can we hope to aspire to? I cannot justify the thought of Notre Dame "waking up the echos" as the media always loves to talk about for the next five years. We will continue to be a team of little consequence up until we fade into the non-BCS conference background. The days of dominance are gone, all we can aspire to is some semblance of dignity. Farewell irish football, I cared about you too much and like a callous girlfriend you jilted me too many times. I am going to watch some freaking hockey.
Matt B. | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 10:22 am | #

Can someone tell me what Peter King is talking about.......in his Monday Morning article (today)-

b. It must be impossible to recruit for Notre Dame anymore. If Charlie Weis, with his Super Bowl rings, can't walk into the homes of the best offensive players in the country and persuade them to hone their skills in maybe the best NFL-prep program for skill players, who can?



Recruiting is not the problems...
INDYPT | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 10:28 am | #

Matt B.

You'll come crawling back.

She's a cruel mistress, but you LOVE it!
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 10:47 am | #

Regardless of intentions, the snowball incident was absurd and the fallout (no pun intended) was sure to follow for all the reasons mentioned in previous posts. It reminded me of going to watch ND play in the Miami cesspool - all manner of trash (verbal and otherwise) raining down on ND fans. It is also true that the ND stadium is full of people who should turn in their season tickets because they do not cheer or act like they are remotely interested in supporting the team. The bottom line is that when you live in a "fish bowl" the fish always appears is bigger than it is.
rjg | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 10:48 am | #

I think Dr. Phil needs to have a show addressing this. Who will go on his show to talk about their Notre Dame football feelings?
Joe Subway | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 10:48 am | #

Thank you SO MUCH for addressing this. As a current student, I have been furious with how the media has spun this story. It hurts the most when I read posts from alumni talking about how terrible we students are. Trust me, the media has got this all wrong. I wrote about the snowball fight as it developed in the game on my blog: http://bronzedshoe.wordpress.com...in-the-stadium/
Laura | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 10:54 am | #

Joe Magarac:

"Notre Dame the institution is becoming becoming more and more like Harvard and Yale, and less and less like the scrappy "Fighting" school of yore."
*************

That's my observation too. They've gotten soft and gone from subway alumni to limousine alumni. Hence the sad state of affairs now. If they quit being so sanctimonious and let some marginal kids play, they'd improve. If not they will be Ivy Leaguers in every sense of the word.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 10:56 am | #

The Chimp will wake the echoes. Chimp mafia!

Yes.

.
elnolewis | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 10:59 am | #

Am I seriously seeing people complain that a UNIVERSITY is becoming too focused on ACADEMICS?

Christ.
Brodie | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:05 am | #

laura:

"Trust me, the media has got this all wrong. I wrote about the snowball fight as it developed in the game on my blog."
******************
And here's an observation from YOUR website in YOUR own words: "Cops and ushers are out in force trying to eject all snowball throwers. They are pointing out kids from the press box and field, then sending teams of two cops to eject students. Just now the scoreboard screen announced we are being filmed for future discipline. Seriously?!"

Yep those cops sure overreacted to groups of spoiled kids launching frozen projectiles at cameramen, referees, coaches and their own players. (BTW that's a felony in some states.) And the media, they have no right to report on mass assault at a football game. Like the cops, they should just shut up and let the mayhem ensue and the little "precious-es" have their fun--safety and civility be damned.

I always thought ND was a tough school to get into. With gibberish like Laura's passing for logic, I think my pet cat has a chance for admission.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:05 am | #

DB 12, Voice. We don't run the same blocking scheme as Florida. By the way DB, if you can find someone who can explain what an interior zone scheme is, call me. Gibberish

Look guys, Latina can teach it anyway you want but what he has to teach is what the head coach wants. It is WELL to say that if he can't figure that out he should leave but it is ACCURATE to say that if he is not doing it exactly as the head coach wishes he should be fired. The latter holds true. If we had a running back, we would be a bit better, but we don't. Maybe the Wood kid will make a difference but I hate to say this, I've looked at a lot of his film and while he is very good, IMHO he is not world beater good. Further he will have to learn how to PROTECT MR. WEIS' LITTLE BOY JIMMY before he touches the ball. In Charlie's scheme everything goes throught the QB. I will leave the issue of whether this mob up front WANTS to block for Clausen to other pundits. As the season has progressed (regressed?) they give every indication of becomming more indifferent. Coaching at the top again. But please, get off Latina. I'm sure he will not be here next year. Sad. The wrong coach is leaving.
Domerplayer | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:09 am | #

Brodie:

"Am I seriously seeing people complain that a UNIVERSITY is becoming too focused on ACADEMICS?"
**************

The correct assertion is that people are complaining that ND is becoming too focused on elitism versus its historical mission to educate --morally and intellectually-- more than those who score only the highest on standardized testing. Like every other institution, it's glory days are behind it when it sees itself as elite.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:11 am | #

Jay

You're right. In Philly, we throw snowballs at Jimmy Johnson, not our own team.
NavyJoe | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:16 am | #

THE CHIMP has a decided schematic advantage. And bananas.

Yes.

.
elnolewis | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:16 am | #

Domerplayer
My son is an offensive line coach I would be sure that he could set you straight. So get off the scheme. We dont block and that is on Latina.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:18 am | #

Domerplayer:

You make the most sense I 've seen but calling out Coach Weis doesn't enhance Coach Latina. Believe it or not both know what they're doing. The problem is talent and depth of talent, and you've got it-- the RB's are mediocre D1 talent. The wide outs are fine and Clausen, for all his obnoxious behavior, may be salvageable. Your analysis on Wood seems accurate. He will be as good as his O-Line allows. BTW if you really need an explanation of inside zone blocking email me, I 've got Meyer's playbook from Utah where it's all explained. He gets it.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:19 am | #

mespo727272:

Ok, let me explain. I wrote that while in the stadium, standing in the middle of the student section. I wasn't watching this on TV and couldn't see everything. It wasn't obvious to us in the stands just how many snowballs were hitting people on the field.

I agree that the snowball fight escalated farther than it should have; throwing snow in the air is harmless enough, but when people started actually aiming at cameramen, etc, it had gone too far.

HOWEVER. It is undeniable that the authorities in the stadium have had an abuse of power problem this year. I was fine with the kids aiming at cops getting ejected, although the way the cop shoved them down the stairs was too rough. But ejecting kids just for lobbing snow in the air, snow that the university didn't bother to remove from the stands? That's a little over the top. Did anyone get HURT, I ask you? Even those hit on the field? Not that I have heard of.

The response by the authorities was too severe, in my opinion, but then I'm just a student trying to have fun at a football game. I'm allowed to have my own opinions. Don't go criticizing the academic standards of my university just because you disagree with me. The fact that my opinion is different from yours does not make me more or less smart than you. Your comment about ND admissions standards was totally uncalled for.
Laura | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:29 am | #

Brodie -

I am not complaining that the University of Notre Dame is too focused on academics. To the contrary, Father Sorin wanted Notre Dame to be a great academic university and it is becoming precisely that.

But in the process, Notre Dame has inevitably become more elite. That means that students and alumni alike are less rowdy in the stands than formerly. It also means that current football players are held to higher academic standards than formerly. George Gipp died with a 0.0 GPA. That wouldn't fly today, and I don't believe it should.

We can't and shouldn't reverse the process that has made ND an elite university. But we can ask what effect our academic eliteness has on our ability to compete in football with schools that are not elite.

It may be that football - unlike any other college sport - demands a nastiness - a willingness to hit and hurt one's opponent - that athletes who meet ND's academic standards simply lack. In other words, our student-athletes may be athletically gifted but be too smart to be nasty.

If that's the case, we should adjust our expectations for ND football. We should still expect passion - the performance against Syracuse was inexcusable; even Faust's losing teams played with heart - but perhaps we should not expect national greatness.

I struggle with this question and don't presume to know the answer to it. Perhaps there is someone who could recruit ND-eligible athletes as well as Weis but who could better motivate said athletes, in which case we should not accept anything less than greatness. But perhaps the athletes that we get will never be as nasty as the competition, and for that reason we should accept a lower level of achievement.
Joe Magarac | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:31 am | #

Thanks laura for the "clarification." Can you tell me where to get the application for Fifi! She has fun with yarn balls, resents authority, and doesn't know what she's talking about either while expressing her "sacred" opinions.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:34 am | #

By the way, the Philly fans, for the most part, were not cheering Michael Irvin's injury; rather, it was the ridiculous "rain dance", or whatever the heck it was, that Deion Sanders was doing over Irvin's prone body. The boos/cheers did not really start until Deion started playing the Shama on the field...
NavyJoe | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:34 am | #

I do find Jay's final line ironic, however, because right now the Irish and Eagles look a whole lot a like. THAT is not a good thing.
NavyJoe | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:35 am | #

Steve Sarkisian will be next ND coach... December 13th...

Yes...

KNOWLEDGE
THE KNOWLEDGE | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:39 am | #

I can't believe some of the posts which excuse the throwing of snowballs because they weren't really meant at the team but were meant to hit troopers, cameramen, cheerleaders etc. not to mention the team played a lousy game. So it's okay if you hit a trooper in the eye and he loses his vision? Or a cameraman who is just doing his job? Get a grip. Just because the media overplayed the story doesn't justify the actions. The students who surrounded those throwing snowballs should have delivered some swift justice.
rays15 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:42 am | #

Joe Magarac:

No need to struggle Joe, the University has made its decision and you are seeing the results. There is no coaching personality fix for a structural problem with admissions.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:43 am | #

I didn't see the game Saturday and I'm glad of that, but I had to say this about the snowballing: I was at a game in either 1967 or '68 (I think it was '68 it could have even been '69) in November and it started to snow and a chant started up in the student section "Ara stop the snow".

Does anyone remember that?

And look how far we've come in 40 years. How sad.
Terry | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:44 am | #

Exercise caution with Kelly. I recall following the UM coaching search and there was plenty of rumor and innuendo about why Michigan never seriously pursued or even contacted Kelly. He may be a better fit in the SEC.
TrueBlueLaw | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:46 am | #

terry:

I think it was before that. It may have been 1965-66.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:47 am | #

Kelly is a major asshole. He hates the media, fans and players. But he's such a good coach.
Brodie | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 11:48 am | #

Laura,

Are you freakin kidding me? I was in the corner with the Syracuse fans whatching the snowballs not only pummel everyone and anyone on the field.

While it was bad enough having to listen to the Syracuse fans chuckle at our 1 down and 47 to go I also had to watch every ND D&*#head decide nothing was more humorous than to launch ice balls onto the field, at the cheerleaders, at the players. DISGRACEFUL. Do me a favor Laura and get the F!@# off campus.
IMIRISH | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:13 pm | #

I'm with Laura on this subject.
& don't disparage her with the snide remark on being a student at ND.

I'm not a Darwinist, but, he was absolutely correct on the theory of 'survival of the fittest.' If you can't duck a snowball thrown from so many yards away, guess what?
You've got a problem!
College kids, high school kids, grammar school kids, put snow at their feet and viola you've got yourself a snowball fight.
PS; If it had been AA, or Champaigne, or Hppy Valley, hey'd been nails, rocks, etc embedded in the snowballs.
Lighten up Wilbur(s)
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:15 pm | #

Guys (girls?), lighten up on Laura. A perspective from a current student is useful, even if you disagree with it. I always found the ushers/troopers at the stadium heavy-handed when I was there, and it seems things haven't changed. And live-blogging the game from the student section is very cool. I'm sure the University will crack down on it as soon as they figure out how.
Mike81 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:24 pm | #

Laura,

1. Don't let guys who curse and talk trash on a blog under an alias ever get under your skin.

2. The snow should have been shoveled. Your university failed there.

3. There is no excuse for any student to throw snowballs or anything at their own team. Don't try to explain it away. The students should be embarrassed and should apologize to their fellow classmates.

4. Much went on before the state troopers got involved. If students can't police themselves they need to be policed. Something needed to happen especially when Kuntz and Brown got hit.. The folks who left without a fight, walked out...others who smarted off or fought disrespectfully were helped out..

5. The students actions seems to parallel the players.. not to get to deep but if CW and the team had the respect of it's own student body clearly that would not have happened. Do the students and players not get along... Outside of the energy of throwing snowballs -- little student energy at the pep rally or at the game... Sounds oorny but when a team is struggling the students should step up -- not back down or become disrespectful...

6. Although most students were not born when ND won their last national championship -- they need to understand that ND tradition includes being a classy student body and welcoming fans -- This, win or lose is what separates ND from so many other environments and places... That being threatened on Saturday is what makes so many of us alums upset...
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:47 pm | #

Doug.
Latina has 8 guys playing on Sunday. Please have your son call him to tell him how to get #9. I'm sure he'll listen inasmuch he must realize he turned into a lousy coach overnight.
Domerplayer | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 12:55 pm | #

Perhaps Latina can play OL.
Dana Payne | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 1:00 pm | #

Lush,

I am pretty sure that Tom Coyne of the AP is ND '97.
Jonathan Domer | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 1:06 pm | #

Call me crazy, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that ND students are smart enough to know that if they throw snowballs in the general direction of the Notre Dame bench, they're probably going to hit some players unless they have freakishly good aim. Which makes them classless idiots. And I don't care how horrible the team is playing, to do that on Senior Day is despicable.
Jade | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 1:31 pm | #

jim masterson:

"If you can't duck a snowball thrown from so many yards away, guess what?
You've got a problem!"
*****************
Consider for a moment, oh great biologist, the circumstance where a person is not looking or the victim is an infant. What "problem" would they have?

I look forward to reading more of your prescient comments on this blog. Tell me, are you permitted to use the institutions' computer in the Day Room when the guards leave?
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 1:55 pm | #

Domerplayer:

"Latina has 8 guys playing on Sunday. Please have your son call him to tell him how to get #9."

**********

Wish I 'd have said that. Everyone's an amateur coach with all the answers until they actually have to step up an do the job. I suspect Doug's son knows a lot better than dear ol' dad.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 2:00 pm | #

I am a '91 grad. I was sitting in back of the ND bench, at the 35 yard line right below the senior section, 4 rows up from the players. I can tell you without a doubt that a few bad apples were deliberately throwing snowballs at the players in the 1st quarter. Ethan Johnson was hit in the cheek and could have lost an eye. I saw about 15 other players hit. The troopers and cameras were 20 yards away or so at the time. The bad apples new what they were aiming for. I was astounded and ashamed.
Disappointed '91 grad | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 2:18 pm | #

Jonathan Domer--That is a different Tom Coyne. Tom Coyne ND'96 undergrad and '97 grad does not write for the AP.

He actually is a native, lives and works in Philly.

And whether the Philly fans have a long history or not is irrelevant. It was a cheap, lazy shot. I expected better from Jay.
NDPatman | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 2:43 pm | #

Domerplayer,
Latina's line hasnt hit a soul in 4 years. Scheme or no scheme whatever you want to call it, this line hasnt performed worth a damn in 4 years. You would think that Latina would know Weis's scheme by now. He has been coaching it for four years.
Doug | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 3:09 pm | #

Okay, I surrender. It was a cheapshot on Philly -- albeit one grounded in popular reputation for being boorish, and as opposed to say, the ND fanbase, which usually gets ranked on the far opposite end of the spectrum of decorum. If the common rep of Philly is that they're too mean, the ND crowd is usually charged with being too nice. That's the distinction I was trying to draw -- that the national snowball stories didn't comport with what people typically think of Irish fans.

I apologize for insulting Philadelphia. Please don't throw any batteries at me.

(I kid!)
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 3:10 pm | #

Responding to comments, in order:

1. rays15: Of course it's not ok to hurt those on the sidelines. Of course not. Like I said, once snowballs were being aimed at particular people, instead of just thrown in the air, the incident had crossed a line. It became dangerous. I can understand why people found it a little funny (we all know how annoying Orange Gloves can be!). Still, intentionally aiming and hitting people on the sidelines is dangerous.


2. IMIRISH: I disagree. I really don't think that most of the snowballs were aimed. I certainly disagree with any and all students who aimed at players and cheerleaders, but I think that overall, the snowball throwing was much less malicious than you depict. That was my sense of things from the student section. It was lighthearted (mostly), the authorities cracked down in the first quarter, and most throwing stopped.


3. Jim Masterson: Thanks for the support, but I still feel that snowballs should not have been aimed at people on the field. I agree with you that a snowball fight was rather inevitable and all in good fun, with a few notable exceptions of malicious throwing.


4. Mike81: Thanks! I appreciate your honesty and respect.


5. jmc:
a. I'm not upset by commenters trying to bother me. I'm upset about alumni thinking that the students are punk kids who don't support their team.

b. Yes, especially because of the safety hazard it created. Everything was very slippery- I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for older fans to get to their seats.

c. I totally, completely agree. I would never, ever, EVER justify throwing snowballs at the team. The vast majority of students support the team with all their heart. A vocal minority doesn't, and these were the ones aiming at the team. I think they are awful too.

d. Before the troopers got involved, 90% of the throwing was lighthearted and facetious. Maybe 10% were actually maliciously aimed at those on the field. Most of the students, however, were just goofing around and having a good time.

e. Of course the students and players get along! The players ARE students. Like I said above, there is a vocal minority who dislikes the team and coaches. These are the ones who STILL boo Brandon Walker, boo during Weis' anthem, and leave before the Alma Mater. Everyone else- all of the students who stay to sing, who cheer until hoarse through the game- LOVE the team. I think you have been hearing lots of the vocal minority and very little of the majority, which is in part the fault of students for not being louder in their support. I promise you, though, the support is there. The passion is there. I am at every pep rally, every drummer's circle, every game. I adore my team.

f. Again, I think the majority of students ARE the classy, respectful student body you hope for. I agree that this is what we should strive to be. I wish we could come together and communicate this better, because it hurts so much to read that you and other alumni think we are a horrible bunch and disgraceful to the university. I am so sorry that you feel that way. Thank you for treating me with kindness and respect regardless.


Sorry for writing a novela here guys- I just want to make sure one student voice is heard in this debate about the quality of current students. Go Irish.
Laura | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 3:24 pm | #

I was sitting by at least 2 students that were trying to hit players. Maybe we should do what the University of Chicago did and give up on sports. Charlie Weiss may be a message from God telling us to do so.
jacob stevens | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 3:26 pm | #

So BC has lower standards for their players? They seem to be able to put decent teams on the field in the last decade. It comes down to head coaching once again.
towards better days | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 3:35 pm | #

mespo727272. Is that your IQ?
Are you the 'idiot, moron,imbecile, half-wit, no wit' that brings an INFANT to a football game on a brutually cold day in South Bend.
If so you will be my nominee for the Darwinist award. Given to the person who should have been devoured by his own ineptitude.

Oh silly me! Probably a neo-socialist who find disfavor in any one who is having fun.
Are you a 2nd amendment opponent? Let me guess??
Hahahahahahaha.
The German's have a word for you Hazlebogen.
jim masterson | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 4:46 pm | #

Laura,

good reply .. to be honest if the students and/or the team is behind CW... then now is the time to step up and say it..

Otherwise, the media and various blog addicts fill in the gaps.. ie throwing snowballs at the team means a problem etc...silence means dissention, "they wanted it more" means we don't give a crap...

I wish the admin would use his arrogance against him ie... ok Charlie one more year but less than 9 wins and we owe you nothing in buyout..
jmc | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 4:55 pm | #

the snowballs were being thrown all over the stadium, not just the student section. like everyone said the announcer told people to quit throwing snowballs. i am an usher and i removed 4 people from the stadium and believe me it was not for throwing one snowball, it was many, i tried to be reasonable. many guests thanked me for removing them as they were disrupting their gameday experience.
eric | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 5:13 pm | #

Doug

Of course Latina knows it and that old son is the problem. For the last time, Everything in Charlie's play book runs through the QB. The running game, while not an afterthought is a pro scheme designed to be executed by pro linemen and a great back. A great back is a relative term: as opposed to our kids anybody playing on Sunday is a great back. Charlie is a vast egotist who has consistantly refused to coach what he has instead of for what his playbook is designed. Got it Doug? If not, I'll make it real simple. FOR SATURDAY HIS PLAYBOOK SUCKS. I'm sorry ladies but Doug is having a bit of a problem getting it. In any case, we all know Latina is gone so it's all moot. He leaves on his own or because Charlie will play CYA. Let's just leave it there. Beat SC.
Domerplayer | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 5:48 pm | #

I'm sure Latina's forgotten more about coaching linemen than I've ever learned, but the fact is, the offenses behind his lines at Ole Miss were never effective running the ball, and the offenses behind his lines at ND have never been effective running the ball. So I'm a little hesitant to put all the blame for the underperformance of the OL on Weis.
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 7:12 pm | #

Which is to say, even though I don't know how to coach and how not to coach an offensive line, I think being a spectator qualifies me to say that they're not performing up to par.
Mr. Wednesday | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 7:13 pm | #

When went to ND, there were snowball fights in the stands. The difference being we were usually winning and way ahead at the time. No need to throw at the coaches.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 7:59 pm | #

Today I received a Christmas gift catalouge from Duluth.

On page five (5) they are advertsing a Sno-Baller Snowball Maker that ,as they claim will make up to 60 "perfectly" shaped snowballs a minute ( perfect during a NBC timeout, you can make 3 to 4 hundred)), and best yet they "disintegrate on impact', so Charlie and other pussies on the field dont have to worry about being hurt.
Peter | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 8:15 pm | #

mespo727272:

All the people you cited as calling ND a racist institution for buying out Ty's contract, why aren't they calling UW racist for firing Ty? That was my question. You did not answer it.
esquire | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:16 pm | #

@ Irish Mickey

Philly may suck but at least we're world f*ckin' champions.
Chase utley | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 9:44 pm | #

I was sitting next to the senior student section, 26 rows up, on Saturday. As has been documented, the first quarter featured several dozen snowballs clearly aimed at the ND players. Other targets were anyone else in the northwest corner of the field, most especially the NBC camera guy. "Why" the players were targeted is not for me to guess - but the fact that they were represents the most embarrassing behavior I have ever seen in 25 years of watching ND football. Throw snowballs at your own team? On Senior Day? I believe most fans, alumni and students would have thought that unimaginable. And no one should compare these actions to those of other schools' fans -- our institution, its alumni and fans, simply expects better.

On a football note, I need to pass on the following observation. I watched Charlie closely during the game, and with headset and laminated card he wandered the sideline, usually far from his players. In fact, I did not see him talk with ANY of his players during the entire game -- except Clausen. No greetings on the sideline after a great play. No admonishments of a player after a mistake. No words of encouragement or rallying of the troops. Nothing. And yes, I made it a point to watch.

I'll leave it to others to talk schemes and personnel. And to comment on this observation, for better or for worse.

Finally, I have seen a lot of bad ND football in the last 25 years (Faust included), but I have never seen anything as awful as that performance on Saturday.
shoetrees | Email | Homepage | 11.24.08 - 10:16 pm | #

When I was at ND, we would have beaten the crap out of the snowballers, then turned them over to security for dismissal from the University. The disgrace is that other students did not do this.
Brian | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 12:09 am | #

esquire:

You'd have to ask them. That's why I didn't answer it my dear barrister. By the way, I never said it was racist, I said is was
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 9:14 am | #

Jim Masterson:

Apparently you have no reply to my questions about your Darwinian drivel and thus resort to mud throwing. I hope you're just a subway alumni since it's hard to believe any school would admit one who thinks and argues so poorly. Non sequiturs and ad hominen attacks thy name is jim masterson! (PS to Jim: that means "does not follow", and "personal attacks")
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 9:18 am | #

esquire:

... deplorable to anyone with a conscience.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 9:23 am | #

shoetrees:

Your observations about the sideline are the most distressing criticisms I have heard about Weis. If he is not involved in motivating the players, maybe he should go, his expertise notwithstanding. After all, Paul Bryant didn't call plays at Alabama but everyone knew who was the papa bear around that den. And they all played like lions for him.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 9:31 am | #

Mespo -- I would have been interested to see how far a little temper tantrum at a bad time, a big hug/helmet slap after a great play, a brief, loud pep talk to either offense or defense would have gone to take the team over the top on Saturday. But nothing was what they got. Not even a good ol' headset slam to frozen turf. Maybe that's the way it is in the NFL. Maybe I'm missing something and that's the way it is in major college football now. But my sense is that some fire, motivation, confidence and encouragement from their leader may have made a difference in more than one game this season.
shoetrees | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 10:02 am | #

I agree. That is the NFL way, but college FB is different. You play on emotion, and even I admit that ND shows little of that. That issue does rest on the coaches.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 12:14 pm | #

After Vietnam, in isolated but well publicized cases, soldiers returning home were greeted by people who jeered and spat on them. Fair or not, these actions, undertaken by a fringe element, are still used to discredit the leftist, anti-war movement.

It is not my intention to compare ND players to Vietnam veterans or snowballs to saliva. I am merely trying to suggest that when one tarries for a larger cause, and it can be assumed ND players believe themselves to be part of a larger community, and returns home to find themselves subjected to purposeful, if symbolic, attack from the very community they believed supported them, it is a cruel realization.

I believe we are past the point that one can argue these events did not transpire. Besides, it seems clear the ND players believe they did, which is all that matters.

I am puzzled by those that believe throwing objects at unaware victims is acceptable behavior. A point of clarification, participation in a ‘snowball fight’ is voluntary. Participants are aware, acknowledge participation, and able to return fire. For those going on about oranges, I’ve never gone to a wedding and heard the happy couple complain that their guest pelted them with rice either. Perhaps there is a parallel here? For those that just wish to ‘have fun’ ‘throwing snow in the air’, presumably one is at a football game to ‘have fun’ watching football. Also, if you haven’t already learned this, object thrown in the air must come down. If they are thrown in a crowd it must be concluded they will come down on people in that same crowd.

These actions represent a purposeful rejection by the community and are deplorable, in my opinion. Any attempt at rationalization, minimization, or blame shifting has the patina of an apologia and is therefore unacceptable. Admittedly, I am not an ND fan but, as in the past, when I have witnessed a fellow Michigan fan undertaking similar behavior, I rebut both verbally and physically with my contrary opinion. Because, fair or not, that person’s actions reflect upon me and the community at large. Not to belabor the point, but I am confident those who ‘speak’ with me would much rather deal with ‘over bearing’ security guards.

I apologize if I have over stepped my bounds. However, in the inevitable future when ND fans invoke moral superiority (as the author of this post already has regarding Philly) the response to these deplorable actions will not be forgotten.
imafreak | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 2:20 pm | #

imafreak:

I appreciate your heartfelt sentiment but you should know that the spitting incidents you describe were urban myths repeated ad nauseum by the right to vilify the left. The truth is that in 1998 sociologist and Vietnam veteran Jerry Lembcke published "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." He recounts a study of 495 news stories on returning veterans published from 1965 to 1971. That study shows only a handful (32) of instances were presented as in any way antagonistic to the soldiers. There were NO instances of spitting on soldiers; what spitting was reported was done by citizens expressing displeasure with protesters.

Opinion polls of the time show no animosity between soldiers and opponents of the war. Only 3 percent of returning soldiers recounted any unfriendly experiences upon their return.

Those are the facts as documented by a veteran with no axe to grind.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 4:20 pm | #

mespo

I think what you say just reinforces imafreak's viewpoint. Most people are sensible and do the right thing. A few bad apples spoil the bunch. The vast majority of US citizens treated the veterans with respect even if they were against the war. Most ND fans treat the team with respect even if they do not like them losing. I think imafreak is saying that it is wrong, disrespectful and makes the good apples look bad.
GB | Email | Homepage | 11.25.08 - 11:33 pm | #

GB:

With that, I totally agree. The problem is we have some well-meaning folks trying to mitigate or justify the foolishness. That takes the cutting edge off the truth you have spoken. That is all I'm trying to combat.
MESPO727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 8:27 am | #

It is not my intention to compare ND players to Vietnam veterans or snowballs to saliva. I am merely trying to suggest that when one tarries for a larger cause, and it can be assumed ND players believe themselves to be part of a larger community, and returns home to find themselves subjected to purposeful, if symbolic, attack from the very community they believed supported them, it is a cruel realization.

I don't think anyone is arguing that snowballs weren't thrown, or that some hit players, or that it was generally a stupid thing to do.

The question is about motive. National news stories (even more yesterday and today; see Pat Forde's column, etc.) have picked up the idea that the snowballs were a negative reaction to events on the field. The storyline being pushed is that N.D. students are somehow "rebelling" against their own team. In truth, the situation is nowhere near analogous to Vietnam vets returning home, let alone lesser charges of infighting or actual malice between students and their classmates. That is the picture that Forde and others are painting, however: that the students hate their classmates, that they were intentionally assaulting them, that they were angry about losing the game and took it out on the players. That's a ridiculous and untrue storyline, and I hate that it is being pushed.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:31 pm | #

Jay:

I have no idea what motivated the individuals involved and quite frankly neither do you or the media. We don't punish for motive. We punish for actions coupled with bad intention. Here we can all see the bad acts. The intention to throw was clear also. I'll leave it to more omniscient minds to tell us why someone does a specific stupid thing.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 3:47 pm | #

Mespo, a key point that keeps being overlooked is that the snowballs fell early in the game, and then mostly ceased. In the Forde account and other national reports, the story is spun such that the snowballs were a reaction to the loss. Going by eyewitness reports, that's patently false.

Motive is important, and in this case, discernible, I think. Was malice towards the team, and its loss of the game, a motivating factor? No.

What are you left with, then? Kids horsing around. Nothing so nefarious as what's being pushed by Forde.
Jay | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 4:08 pm | #

Jay:

I think your time line is correct, and I am sure some horseplay was involved but motives are slippery things, mutating as the event unfolds. I am also sure that the press has agendas beyond objective reporting of events in sequential order, but what else is new.
mespo727272 | Email | Homepage | 11.26.08 - 8:18 pm | #

My son is a student at ND. He said that the snowballs were thrown early and they were not thrown at players as a symbol of disgust with their performance. Why should the ND media haters ruin a good story with facts.
rockne | Email | Homepage | 11.27.08 - 12:20 am | #

"Notre Dame is not Philadelphia"? By writing that statement you are doing the same thing that you complain about the national media doing- blowing something out of proportion and perpetuating an unfortunate (and incorrect) characterization.
Mike McCrossen | Email | Homepage | 11.27.08 - 11:42 am | #

I was in the student section at the Syracuse game and I am 100% sure that the snowballs were more aimed at the coaching staff, TV timeout guy and the police officers. Although I am surprised that the reaction by ushers and staff was minimal considering the great marshmallow debacle of the 2007 season... when a hundred or so kids were thrown out of the game for the marshmallow fight at halftime. Oh well.
kate | Email | Homepage | 12.05.08 - 12:52 am | #

also, I have never heard booing at the "Weis" cheer like I did on this game. In my experience I rarely hear booing in ND stadium, especially at this time. It didn't SOUND like many students were behind Weis.
kate | Email | Homepage | 12.05.08 - 12:54 am | #