Its gonna be all out war today.
Let me detonate my weapon of Mass Destruction in this war/debate.
He that is promoted by the system will hence promote the system. The “system (of white supremacy)” has the power to promote individuals to heights incapable by any other source. Look at the economic heights rappers were able to reach when the market for the music become 70% white vs. what they earned when it was simply a black market. Once a black entity is promoted by the system, these entities in turn feel obligated or compelled to somewhat promote the systems desire in order to maintain the fame and fortune. Again, it’s easy to see how conscious/political rap faded when the market changed from black to white and rappers became increasingly rich as a result of white buyers.
One of the main problems I had, and which disappointed me the most, is how they take traits and make them into solutions. For example, marriage is not a cure all. An unhealthy marriage can be just a damaging to children as single parent hood. What if your dad is a gang banger or drug dealer, as well as your mom? How do the father and mother being married do anything for that child but reinforce gang banging and drug dealing? Marriages of positive people produce positive results. Marriage of negative people produces negative results. It’s not the institution of marriage that controls whether adults are a positive or negative influence on children’s lives, rather, it’s the INDIVIDUALS involved. It just so happens that positive individuals and individuals with a lot going for themselves have a greater propensity to get married than negative individuals without much going for them. Marriage really has nothing to do with whether the father or mothers are negative or positive people. Marriage is a red herring….its not the problem.
Another problem that I have is with holding the ordinary to the standards or curve set by the extraordinary. The vast majority of people are grouped very similarly in capacities, drive and natural ability. Then there is the minority who are extremely either way. They are either a cut above the rest or a cut below the rest. Hence, the fact that extraordinary black people were able to rise above oppression 25, 50, 100 years ago is used to caste aspersion on those who did not. The fact that extraordinary people can do something does not mean that the ordinary should be held to that standard. One has to understand what is typical and what is atypical in setting expectations. Blacks are always being told of other blacks who have made it, despite racism, to discredit black claims that racism has held them back. In other words, if any black made it against the odds, every black should have made it against the odds if they just tried as hard. Again, this ignores the natural variation between individual capacities and strength and that some individuals are extraordinary and the ordinary should not be expected to be extraordinary to overcome racism. Society has to change enough to allow the TYPICAL break free.
I'll just sit back and watch as the Cosby worshippers come out in force.
Noah The African |10.15.07 - 9:12 am
MADNESS, sheer unadulterated Madness!!
`
I'll just sit back and watch as the Cosby worshippers come out in force.
Lee | 10.15.07 - 9:23 am
Did the man (Dr William Cosby), speak the true or not?
`
I agree with a lot of what you said Noah...shocking as that may seem...but for this:
"black people were able to rise above oppression 25, 50, 100 years ago is used to caste aspersion on those who did not. The fact that extraordinary people can do something does not mean that the ordinary should be held to that standard. One has to understand what is typical and what is atypical in setting expectations"
Most blacks have "made it"...so the minority who have not are below the curve not on the curve or above it. The blacks who are making it today are the ordinary.
That arguement you made would be stronger if you put it out in 1957. I would agree, but in 2007, if you aren't making it you are a minority.
"I'll just sit back and watch as the Cosby worshippers come out in force."
Lee, you won't be seeing any Cosby worshippers, just those who fail to see systemic racism (or the legacy of slavery) at work when black thugs terrorize and oppress black working and middle class neighborhoods. That's all.
Sorry Dr.Dyson: Bill Cosby is right and the black middle class has NOT lost it's mind.
Maybe we should offer ghetto blacks a life time of welfare benefits if they will emmigrate to Liberia or Sierra Leone. They won't have to worry about institutional racism there. Anyone want to take bets on the type of black Mecca they are going to create there. LOL
One question.
How did anyone determine that Cosby is a liberal?
Because he's friends with Jesse Jackson?
As Dyson pointed out in his book, unlike a lot of prominent black celebrities during the 60s, Cosby was pretty silent during the Civil Rights movement.
[quote]The “system (of white supremacy)” has the power to promote individuals to heights incapable by any other source. Look at the economic heights rappers were able to reach when the market for the music become 70% white vs. what they earned when it was simply a black market.[/quote]
Noah - can I ask you a question. (Please put aside your "Non-White White Supremacy" for a second):
Is there a POINT at which enough Chinese and Koreans and Indians and Mexicans and Africans...regardless of where they live PARTICIPATE in this "GLOBAL SYSTEM" where you will no longer call it a SYSTEM OF THE WHITE MAN/ White Supremacy?
(Then please tell us about how powerful YOU think the White man is. He presides over all of us coloreds, doesn't he in your world?)
Cosby should stand up and drop this rhyme:
"Just Plug Me In Just Like I Was Eddie Harris You're Eating Crazy
Cheese Like You'd Think I'm From Paris You Know I Get Fly You
Think I Get High You Know That I'm Gone And I'm A Tell You All Why
So Tell Me Who Are You Dissing Maybe I'm Missing The Reason That
You're Smiling or Wilding So Listen In My Head I Just Want To
Take 'em Down Imagination Set Loose And I'm Gonna Shake 'em
Down Let It Flow Like A Mud Slide When I Get On I Like To Ride And
Glide I've Got Depth Of Perception In My Text Y'all I Get Props At My
Mention 'Cause I Vex Y'All So What'cha Want You're So Funny With
The Money That You Flaunt Where'd You Get Your Information
From You Think That You Can Front When Revelation Comes"
Steve:
Bill Cosby has done more for black people in his life then you, your father, or your shiftless grandfather have done in all their life times combine.
[quote]I'll just sit back and watch as the Cosby worshippers come out in force.[/quote]
Who do you worship Lee?
Is more of his focus upon an EXTERNAL entity to our race or an INTERNAL MANAGEMENT of our own resources?
*sigh* Statistics, statistics, statistics.
One question: What is the solution to the problems he just named?
This is retread.
The book will be a best seller, and people will stargaze and scream how they were there to watch Cosby be the father to your kids that you should be parenting your damn self.
BTW, I never said he was ALL wrong and I won't fall into that dumb trap because Dr. Cos isn't immune from criticism.
Where were you when Farrakhan and others was saying this for years.
I forget, he's an 'anti-semite' and America's Dad is the safe alternative.
Stop this silly game.
To hell with Cosby, school your own kids.
BTW, CS I worship no one.
"Maybe we should offer ghetto blacks a life time of welfare benefits if they will emmigrate to Liberia or Sierra Leone."
And who is going to determine who the eligible emmigre's are?
Below a certain income?
Jobless?
Criminal record?
Live in a certain area?
Leave the decision to certain white folks and your black a$$ will be right there on the boat with DeShawn and Shamieka.
Dyson sure nailed this one.
Some black middle class folks have totally lost their minds.
HEY (some of you)... LET'S KEEP THIS CIVIL (I ain't calling any names). IF NAME CALLING AND WHATNOT BEGINS, THAT WILL RAILROAD THE DISCUSSION TO POINTS UNKNOWN. I CAME HERE TO DISCUSS COSBY NOT GET IN A DEBATE OVER THE QUARTER MILE TIME OF A CHEVELLE SS VERSUS THAT OF A MUSTANG BOSS 302. COSBY RULES!!!!
Oh and Steve...if white folks did want to deport all blacks, I will just apply for citizenship in Japan through my wife...have fun in Africa. I will watch that nonsense on CNN International. 
Dh,
One thing that I did not mention, but which should be implicitly understood, is that not every black faces the same obstacles or resistance in degree and or kind. Only if one makes the assumption that there is a monolithic condition shared by each black person, in degree and kind, can we conclude what you did. If that were the case then yes, one could argue that those left languishing in poverty and ghettos are a cut below the typical blacks. However, we all know that there is no monolithic black condition in degree and kind. There are wide variations in degree and kind of obstacles/challenges blacks face. Just because you are I are black and have “made it” does not mean that we overcame the same situation and challenges, in degree and or kind, as another black person who has not made it. So I cannot argue that I am a cut above the rest or typical without having walked in the same shoes.
"How about anyone currently on welfare or has a felony conviction will be eligable to be "paid to leave"."
But the whites and hispanics on welfare or with felonies can stay because they don't embarass you?
"Some black middle class folks have totally lost their minds."
Yeah steve, we lost our minds. We believe that our neighborhoods should be safe and that we, and our children, should be able to use the infrastructure of the black community without being shot, beaten, robbed, or killed without having to blame the white man, cultural hegemony, the legacy of slavery, the ku klux klan, and the politics of oppression rooted in melanin deficiency. We must be parnoid or something like that.
Noah:
What you said is true, but can you give me a situation that is just so bad the average person will just stay poor for life?
"But the whites and hispanics on welfare or with felonies can stay because they don't embarass you?"
Steve, in many parts of working class black neighborhoods, latinos and whites who are criminals live nowhere near us. If they do, they are small in their numbers. If you lived in a black neighborhood, you would see that the pathologies and disfunctions emanate from some of our neighbors who happen to be black. I could care less about what happens in a white neighborhood, that stuff don't affect me. Its Jayquan gangbanger, who lives two doors down, who presents the problem.
"Yeah steve, we lost our minds. We believe that our neighborhoods should be safe"
You're no more black or middle class than I am.
My neighborhood is 95% black and we don't live in constant fear of "black thugs" as you put it.
My neighbors are hardworking, law abiding professionals.
Maybe you should do some self-examination.
Dragon Horse, you are straying off topic here. Stay on topics.
"Maybe you should do some self-examination."
No steve, maybe you need to understand that many black folks who are hardworking and law abiding, live a stone's throw away from the ghetto. Not all of us can live in fenced in developments and planned communities that are hours away from the hood.
"Dragon Horse, you are straying off topic here. Stay on topics".
SEE I TOLD YOU GUYS ABOUT THAT. YOU MADE SHAY COME IN HERE. CHILL BEFORE SHE DELETES ALL OUR POSTS. SHE AINT HAVING NO DIVERGENT CONVERSATIONS!
Al is right Steve.
You get rid of poor blacks the AMerican murder rate drops by half...but poor blacks are only 3% of the AMerican population and cause almost half the murders in the country.
3%...25% of 12%...poor whites are poor and ignorant but don't cause that much serious crime per capita, neither do poor Hispanics...(we've addressed the Hispanic rate before).
In fact if we got rid of the poor blacks and poor HIspanics, our crime rate would be as low as the EU average or lower.
The fact is we have a 3rd world in our 1st world nation eating it from the inside out.
Al, I've listened to your drivel constantly and you are obsessed with black thugs, criminals and ne-er do wells.
I doubt very much that you live either in or near a ghetto neighborhood.
You are entirely too soft and jumpy to survive in an area where there is the constant threat of street violence.
You are consumed with the images black people send to the larger society and the media stereotype of the ghetto thug or the welfare mother are presented as the face of black America.
So in order to curry favor with massa, you have to oppose and condemn the thugs and baby mommas even more vociferously than he does.
DH,
In all animals, including the human, socialization and enculturation manifest most profoundly via emulation. Thus, environment is very important. Environment meaning what is taking place around you. In light of that, there are massive areas of poverty where people are socialized to be poor because that is what the environment teaches via display. Its not that people want to be poor, it’s just that they don’t know how to be anything else but poor, because of the lessons of their environment. Do as I do is much more powerful force than do as I say. The challenge for individuals in such an environment is to not do what come natural, which is socialization via emulation. The individual then needs to be exposed to the counter cultural (to his own culture of poverty) ways and means, while existing within a culture of poverty and being ostracized for behaving different. Peer pressures need to be overridden. Sexual pressures need to be overridden and a host of other challenges emanating from race and class.
"I doubt very much that you live either in or near a ghetto neighborhood."
WRONG!!!!
Grew up next to Wyandanch; worked in Bed Stuy (down the street from Boys and Girls - Blood country). Now I do admit that I lived for a spell in Islip where the only worry was Mara Salvatrucha 13 (MS 13). Currently I live just off Bankhead Hwy inside the perimeter. If you know anything about ATL, then you know that Bankhead is maaaaaaaaaaaaad ghetto. And this is my whole point: you intellectual leftist Afristocrat negroes get high on all your theories and textbooks and can't even relate to the grassroots folks. This is why Dyson is so completely out of touch as are you.
I am so torn about this. I agree with the message, but I sense such a hostility towards black people in Cosby's tone & attitude. I understand the anger, but anyone can point a finger and yell/blame/accuse.
Despite my misgivings, I have to take the side of the message and support it.
Cosby was speaking undeniable truths, if one believes in a civilized society. Barbarians would tend to disagree with him.
Noah:
This what caused the black poverty rate to drop so dramatically from 1965-1975? Most blacks were poor and lived around other poor blacks, so where did they learn not to be poor?
Also many of the poor blacks you talk of have relatives who are not poor...almost every black person in the middle class has poor family members...it is not like they don't have examples of "another way"...
"And this is my whole point: you intellectual leftist Afristocrat negroes get high on all your theories and textbooks and can't even relate to the grassroots folks. This is why Dyson is so completely out of touch as are you."
Oh please. You Suffolk County okey doke.
So you worked in Bed Stuy?
I grew up in the West Bronx.
That's why I know damn well you don't know anything about the 'hood or you wouldn't be such a wuss.
What the heck do you know about "grassroots folks"?
Angie needs to clarification..."I am so torn about this. I agree with the message, but I sense such a hostility towards black people in Cosby's tone & attitude."
I think YOU sense hostility because Cosby is talking about things YOU don't like to hear. I've been waiting to hear for someone speak out for over 30 years.
I don't even share the same political views as Cosby and Toussaint, but I'm with them 100% in their efforts to uplift Black youth and education.
To All Cosby Haters:
Bill Cosby has donated millions of dollars ($50 Million+) to the African American community, universites, and organizations. At this very minute, there are Blacks all across the country in various colleges (my alma mater Hampton University included) because Cosby as personally written a scholarship check to the registrar to pay the tuition.
The "Civil Rights contribution" argument is a lame facade. And the hypocricy is laughable. So Belefonte gets credit for getting out of his bed with white women to march for Civl Rights, but Cos is a "non-contrubitor"?. Okay
For all of the Dyson worshippers, Dyson is the Black, liberal version of Rush Limbaugh. While Dyson is well read (what some people call an intellectual) and has a unmatched vocabulary, his BS is unmistakable. Dyson makes six figure salaries teaching white kids at preppy Ivy League Schools (currently Georgetown) about Black culture using Tupac lyrics.
Dyson's complaints that Cosby is "throwing poor Blacks a shovel instead of a rope" is also BS. Cosby has spent $50 Million plus in his lifetime on the Black community. He has personally ensured thousands would not be poor, by providing them with the means to get an education. Does Dyson have scholarship program, or donating some of the proceeds from his crappy books he writes? Nope. He is a millionaire who hates capitalism, who dazzles people by talking fast and using big words. In other words, he is a Bullsh****r.
As for Cosby's history of adultery... when did people in the Black community start crticizing figureheads for whoring around on their wives. LOL. People have made excuses for Sharpton, Jackson, Clinton, and any other person with a (D) after their name for their well documented whoremongering. Now people have a moral litmus test a public speaker must meet in order for their viewpoint to have credibility?
Looks like Dyson is not the only bullsh****r in the community. ROTFLAMO while doing the helicopter
After Fat Albert the Movie?
Pssshhh
Why would you listen to Cosby?
Noah- I see what you're getting at with marriage. I do not agree that in every case it is a panacea. I recommend that women involved with violent men run the other way. However, marriage is generally a net positive. You have two involved people, who are able to pool resources and grow wealth. Two people can look after children better than one and can reinforce discipline.
Regarding the ordinary vs. extraordinary...I guess I need more concrete situations. I don't believe that ordinary black folks can't improve their lot in life. I find it disheartening and extremely offensive of you to describe failure as typical. If a white person said that you'd be on fire! Also, it's not like 1 black person made it and is casting aspersions on everyone else. My ancestors were enslaved (and dark) too! One generation out of slavery they were literate. I do not know how. Their children took the ball and ran with it and so on. I can understand why that seems extraordinary to some. But I also believe that viewing it as such lets folks who didn't bust their ass off the hook.
Steve, it makes sense for Al to condemn thugs more vociferously. Consider whose hard-earned $$$ and/or life would be taken in a robbery....
Al or massa?
"I think YOU sense hostility because Cosby is talking about things YOU don't like to hear. I've been waiting to hear for someone speak out for over 30 years."
What are you talking about?
Cosby isn't saying anything different than what you will hear in a black barbershop every Saturday.
Jesse Jackson spoke at my high school 30 years ago and didn't mention one word about "whitey" or "oppression".
I remember his speech like it was yesterday.
"Up with hope, down with dope".
"If you can't feed the baby, then don't make the baby"
"If my mind can conceive it, I can achieve it."
DH,
It’s important to note that work ethic and opportunity has always historically been the means for escaping poverty for the overwhelming percentage of Americans. Of course racism denied blacks many opportunities during this era and hence black poverty rates were extremely high. When black migrated out of southern rural poverty to northern urban centers, they found middle class opportunities that did not require a college education, via factories and unionization. This is what explains the drop in black poverty that you noted in your time window. What has changed is that factory jobs and unionization is in relative decline (in regards to growth of the national population). Today, more than ever before, and unlike before, a college education is required to reach middle class income. The middle income jobs that were becoming available for uneducated blacks in the 60’s and 70’s are no longer there for uneducated blacks. So the dynamics of the economy has changed to the degree that comparing then and now is not a valid comparison.
"I am so torn about this. I agree with the message, but I sense such a hostility towards black people in Cosby's tone & attitude. I understand the anger, but anyone can point a finger and yell/blame/accuse."
Angie, I don't know how you will take this but if there is a hostility, I understand it. I have that same hostility and it is not an anti-black thing. For me, its about seeing, first hand, honest and law abiding black folks being brought down by the dregs who don't care. There are good children who get jumped because their parents dress them nice for school. There are potentially bright kids in school who cannot learn because of the three to six knuckleheads and hoochie wannabees that use school as a place to show their behinds. And their parents... oops I meant mother... oops I meant aunt... oops I meant cousin... oops I meant grandmother (notice that I did not say father) are the ones who do not show up at open school night BUT show up to argue with the teacher when their kid gets caught breaking the school rules (ie: smoking pot in school, gang related activity, stealing, violent assault, the list goes on). And that is just school. All types of infrastructure in working and middle class black neighborhoods has been renedered nearly useless and dangerous because of THOSE black folks.
Personally, I am hostile towards them on behalf of all the black folks who do right, have terriffic children, believe in right and wrong and have to bear the tyranny of the ghetto. In a nutshell, I loathe the fact that I cannot use the school around the corner (because its disfunctional) or take my daughter to the playground around the corner because its infested with jerkoffs. I am also hostile because I wonder what will happen to many of our black neighborhoods and I am including the developments as well. In East Hanover, it seems that ghetto culture is being imported by the migrants who could not afford a house in North Jersey and NYC.
My hostility is justified because where I live is being disproportionately ghettoized by a few people, and idiots like Dyson sit atop their ivory towers and attack Cosby. Cosby sounds more astute to what is happening while Dyson sounds like a textbook bought from the black interest section at the Barnes and Noble, located at that upscale mall, in the affluent (and white) part of the suburbs.
I am so torn about this. I agree with the message, but I sense such a hostility towards black people in Cosby's tone & attitude. I understand the anger, but anyone can point a finger and yell/blame/accuse.
I don't understand why his tone is such a problem? All that ball-grabbing thug posturing that goes on you'd think folks could take it...
Can't we agree that life is harsher for many black folk? Deperate circumstances need desperate measures. If folk can listen to incessant anger on the radio, surely they can listen to someone who actually DOES care about them?
It's called tough love. All the mollycoddling and hand-holding has created 2 generations of virtually worthless males. Check out the end of the show where Russert reads out the essay regarding women struggling to make it on their own.
***
Scoot over Chris, I'm gonna get right down with you too!!
Ripama, Are you for real?
Chris G,
Is Cosby supposed to get a medal? He was worth close to a billion at one point, he's supposed to do that.
Again I say, WHO SAID THEY HATE COSBY?
I just can't take the hero worship from people who labelled both he and his wife RACIST just a decade ago.
No one answered my question: WHERE ARE THE SOLUTIONS?
People love to sound smart by dropping negative stats on blacks,but not one single solution.
BTW, did anyone read Dyson's book?
Probably not. Is he completly lying?
How is it that all the people who claim that blacks aren't monolithic want us to all of a sudden blindly follow Cosby without critique?
Sound like sheep to me.
"All the mollycoddling and hand-holding has created 2 generations of virtually worthless males."
I take it you don't have a boyfriend.
unbelievable.
"You Suffolk County okey doke."
Right steve, come to the 'Danch kickin' that Bronx nonsense. Many a city person has left Wyandanch with an entirely new concept of what it means to be a thug. And judging by your comment, you seem caught up in that "my hood is better than your hood" madness. That is the problem with you lefties, you have this delusion about being an "intellectual thug". You are no better than the kids who run around with their bandanas and pop guns playing the role. I avoid the hood and do not pretend to be down with the criminal element. The parameters of masculinity go beyond a make believe game of "Menace to Society." Stop acting like you are down. You ain't. You are a middle class kids with good values like the rest of us. Period.
Noah:
That is true for everyone not just blacks. Most white people still do not go to college even in 2007.
High school graduation rates, as far as I know did not get over 50% for whites until the 1940's.
Basically this is an issue of market pressure, most people don't go to college to be an intellectual and sit around at coffee shops or online and pontificate about higher issues of the day. They do it for the practical reason of making money.
The conclusion of what you said is that blacks somehow are oblivious to changing market conditions...or blacks have a lower cultural respect for education in general due to history and some have never developed it.
I don't see how that can be implimented by a government program, you are talking about cultural engineering. THe government can make a school building, give it adequate funding, and put in a qualified teacher but it can not make kids study at home, parents be engaged, etc.
"All the mollycoddling and hand-holding has created 2 generations of virtually worthless males."
"I take it you don't have a boyfriend."
That's right steve, when your argument is leaky and without merit, resort to insult. Way to go!!!
Al, do you regard yourself as "worthless"?
Or is it just the rest of us "black males"?
What Cosby does not understand is that you cannot control culture without first controlling the media. In a free society individuals will behave in such a way to maximize individual benefit/pleasure without regard to its collective impact. However black people are behaving, or misbehaving according to Cosby, they are attempting to maximize benefits to themselves. In a society predicated on the virtues of individualism, it’s a hard sell to get people to act upon some collect concerns, in this case, the condition of black America.
You cannot change the black condition without changing America first, because the black condition is a REACTION to the larger or dominant culture and society, and always had been. Hence, the black condition will not be changed from the inside out, but rather, from the outside in and hence that is my fundamental disagreement with Cosby. Cultural change will only manifest via regulation. People free to choose will keep choosing that which they do because it gives them the short term gratification they desire. Unless you offer something of equal or greater pleasure to replace that, they will keep choosing that (behavior). This is why policies and laws much be changed to change the culture of black America. However, blacks don’t have the numbers or influence to legislate change politically. Rest assured that if whites faced the problems we faced with things like homicide, out of wedlock births and what not, that they would use the political process to regulate or change behavior.
steve, I have run into many, many women who "can't find a good black man." Now I will chalk some of that up to some of these women being a little crazy but not in all cases.
lee
"Again I say, WHO SAID THEY HATE COSBY?
I just can't take the hero worship from people who labelled both he and his wife RACIST just a decade ago.
No one answered my question: WHERE ARE THE SOLUTIONS?
People love to sound smart by dropping negative stats on blacks,but not one single solution.
BTW, did anyone read Dyson's book?
Probably not. Is he completly lying?"
THANK YOU!!!!
I'm listening to these people and trying to figure out what planet they live on.
"What Cosby does not understand is that you cannot control culture without first controlling the media."
That's right Noah, the television made them do it. The CD made that brother join a gang. Mom and Dad (or maybe just Mom) have no influence over the kid. Which brings us to another problem: Remember back in the day (mid 80's) when it was popular to say "Save the Black Family"? It still needs saving and the first step is to get folks to end their irresponsible behaviors.
[QUOTE]What Cosby does not understand is that you cannot control culture without first controlling the media. [/QUOTE]
Noah The Iowan:
If YOU KNEW that the MEDIA was poisoning YOUR PEOPLE and their imagery about themselves would it be too much to expect the leadership to
1) Have the people in question to SELL THEIR TELEVISION SETS?
2) Create local community forums as the primary means of distribution of news and information?
3) Make use of the INTERNET which allows any group, anywhere to create a portal, forsaking all the other alternatives that they have to CHOOSE from.
If THINGS ARE as you CLAIM Noah - why keep going back to feed on the rat poison that is being fed to you and your consciousness?
I give you credit for being able to identify conspiracies. When you are able to put forth DIRECTED ACTIONS upon the people THEN you will be not only "Saying Something" but DOING IT as well.
(Folks I have been listening to this for nearly 8 years now.)
Noah:
"You cannot change the black condition without changing America first, because the black condition is a REACTION to the larger or dominant culture and society, and always had been. Hence, the black condition will not be changed from the inside out, but rather, from the outside in and hence that is my fundamental disagreement with Cosby. Cultural change will only manifest via regulation. People free to choose will keep choosing that which they do because it gives them the short term gratification they desire."
I'm afraid you might be right on this one...in my reading of developement of other nations all the countries took a very active and authoritarian approach to changing cutlural norms to match new economic realities or realities they wanted to create.
"steve, I have run into many, many women who "can't find a good black man.""
You'll find a lot of white women saying that can't find a good man either.
I am sick and tired of you self hating negroes demonizing your own people.
What causes this?
Don't tell me that you don't see examples of black success.
They're all around you.
DH,
Blacks were disproportionately and are disproportionately employed in manufacturing and in Unions. These avenues have radically reduced black poverty. It is what it is (fact) to use that colloquialism. Therefore, when manufacturing and unions declined, it became harder for blacks to make it out of poverty. Again, the most powerful force of socialization is emulation via ones environment. Middle class communities born from high factory pay and unions did not demonstrate, for emulation, education. They did not need an education to reach middle class and hence the youth did not see education being demonstrated as a means to an end. That said, black educational achievement is much higher now than back then.
Another thing to note is that poverty rates are much higher than being reported. I mentioned in several economic topics on this blog how inflation is being underreported. Well….one of the many false readings that manifest from understated inflation is understated poverty. Black poverty is listed as 25% officially, but its most likely around 30% and could be as high as 1/3/ . Its just like the false unemployment data that we get that does not include people who are “discouraged” because they have not found a job after looking for so long that the did not look in the last measure period. Blacks are disproportionately among those classified as “discouraged workers” and hence the black unemployment rate is much higher than being reported also.
Noah :Today, more than ever before, and unlike before, a college education is required to reach middle class income. I agree. Thus, education is essential to survival.
Al: Personally, I am hostile towards them on behalf of all the black folks who do right, have terriffic children, believe in right and wrong and have to bear the tyranny of the ghetto
I could not have said it better myself.
Why is anger towards whites who threaten the black community justified, but anger towards blacks who terrorize the community, rob old ladies, disrupt school, kill community activits is unwarranted? An enemy is an enemy is an enemy. The ones who wear the mask and infiltrate are the most insidious and most destructive.
You also touched on something that is never really discussed. Often, middle class and upwardly mobile blacks are accused of chasing whites and "leaving the community behind".
The truth is that whites are irrelevant. These people are fleeing for their lives and those of their children (like immigrants do). White cops did not make people break into my grandmothers house. Lack of manufacturing jobs did not make her fall and break her hip. A knuckleheaded BLACK thug made her fall and broke her hip. A BLACK thug broke into her house and stole everything after she died.
My black (Muslim!) uncle saved $, opened a skating rink (something he loves), paid off his loan in 6 mos, lobbied the City Council to get buses rerouted from the black side of town to his place so that BLACK kids could come and have fun, much to the chagrin of white folk. He gave back to the "community" and they repaid him by fighting and acting a fool. This same uncle owns property and is very lenient about folks who fall behind on their rent. They repay him by not paying the rent. He is too kind to start eviction proceedings. Naturally, this affect his family. He once asked if I would like to come up there and manage his buildings. I refused, as I don't play. I won't sacrifice my family for folks who could give 2 [bleep] about me.
Angie, I'm not attacking you. But I want you to understand why some black folks seem so hostile. I was that kid who was ostracized by whites for being black and hated by blacks for not being a moron. The talkin' white thing is very, very real.
Even though I knew that the kids from SE Raleigh hated my guts (females actually), I helped anyone who asked with their homework. There were some really good kids, that even at age 13, I could see were sucked into a morass of degradation and subhuman (yeah, I said it) behavior. This is the environment of which Noah speaks. My payback was folks talking shit (jealous females naturally) and someone taking my paper and copying off of it.
Now, I am expected to donate my free time to provide free legal services for folk. Some folks I don't mind helping (dv victims, family, friends, folks that just need help). But I'll be damned if the folks that were dancing down the hallways in school will get 1 nanosecond of my time.
This is where I agree with DH. As harsh as it sounds, I will gladly cut off a gangrenous limb to save a healthy body. There are some folks who weren't nothin', aren't nothin, and ain't never gonna be nothin!
The black middle/upper/affluent/educated/bougeiousie/elites/
yadda... need to reclaim their rightful place or you can kiss it goodbye.
C'mon Steve, you can do better than that!!!
steve, here is your biggest problem: You want black folks to think of themselves in relation to white folks. Your comment is indicative of that:
"You'll find a lot of white women saying that can't find a good man either. I am sick and tired of you self hating negroes demonizing your own people."
What you don't understand is that there are black folks in this world who have minimal contact with white people and their reality is nearly totally black. This is why I accuse you of being obsessed with white people. You want black folks to stay silent about problems in their own communities simply because there are whites who do similar things. You fail to realize that these whites "who do similar things" have no bearing or influence on black folks who have little if any contact with whites, simply because they are always around black people. Steve, I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT WHITE FOLKS. THEY ARE NOT MY REALITY!
Lee | 10.15.07 - 9:51 am
BTW, I never said he was ALL wrong and I won't fall into that dumb trap because Dr. Cos isn't immune from criticism.??
True, if Autumn Jackson is Cosby’s daughter, then she deserved the same life-style as Cosby’s other children. The same quality of food, shelter, clothing, private schooling, vacations, snow ski lessons, automobiles, college education; everything his other children received. I do not know if the DNA test was ever done.
As for the women who claimed that Cosby molested them, if he did it, he was wrong. But, if a woman goes to a married man’s crib and his wife is not there, then that woman should suspect that that married man wants some of them draws.
I have no knowledge of Cosby ever stating publicly that extra-marital sex is wrong or sinful, so I can not call the man a hypocrit.
Cosby is a hypocrit if it has been demonstrated that Autumn Jackson is his daughter and Cosby did not provide for her as he did his other children.
Where were you when Farrakhan and others was saying this for years?
True dat, Cosby is not saying anything that Minister Farrakhan has not already said. Also true, some of us are afraid of being called anti-Semites so we disassociated ourselves from our good minister’s words.
I have agreed with Minister Farrakhan on black pride, dignity, self-respect, self-help, scholarship, black men being in the home to take care of their children financially and emotionally, educational excellence, the one-million-man march.
I reject Islam, whilst the progenitors of Islam may have been black, over time it became an anti-black racist religion.
I also reject both Christianity and Judaism as being anti-black.
To hell with Cosby, school your own kids.?
Again true, Cosby did not say anything yesterday that you and I are not already doing.
Cosby is appealing to the low-down lowest of us, the ‘us’ that does not watch Meet the Press nor reads self help books.
This is why I have said that Cosby is preaching to the church’s mothers board; the mothers of the church already believe.
`
[quote]Blacks were disproportionately and are disproportionately employed in manufacturing and in Unions. These avenues have radically reduced black poverty. It is what it is (fact) to use that colloquialism. Therefore, when manufacturing and unions declined, it became harder for blacks to make it out of poverty.[/quote]
Noah - (we have had this debate before folks):
If MANUFACTURING JOBS are what lifted Black folks out of poverty (and I agree) then could you tell us what made the MANUFACTURING JOBS go away?
Of course you will say "corporate greed". Why is it then that many of these same corporations moved to RIGHT TO WORK states to escape the UNION stranglehold that the current Rust Belt had upon them? YES Blacks have been pro-union for the duration. It is plain to see that, just possibly, the unions WENT TOO FAR in their demands and thus have a partial blame for the fate that fell upon Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Camden, Baltimore, etc?
How about next time focusing on OWNERSHIP and MODERATE WAGES and COLLECTIVE INTERESTS of the organization - keeping it running in perpetuity if possible so that it can serve the interests of future generations?
As it stands there is an ANTAGONISTIC view against the corporation. (see here:
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk...rt.php?
id=13134
and here:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/200.../left-
o12.shtml
With the ship heavy loaded and taking on water.....these fools want to bring brings on board.
dangit, gotta go. Things were starting to get good. Sigh....
2/3 of you would come to Canada, which in turn would push the Canadians further north.
Some of you would go to Africa and create another Liberia ... with roughly the same results.
Europe and Asia would skim the Dragon Horses from the group and leave the standard chip-on-shoulder blacks to be someone else's problem.
BTW this would never happen, so I'm not sure why this sort of secret-government-plot fear-mongering still works. Expelling 30 million people is difficult enough, and would be nearly impossible in the age of mass media.
btw, who says Liberia & Sierra Leone want these folk anyway?
Cosby is appealing to the low-down lowest of us, the ‘us’ that does not watch Meet the Press nor reads self help books.
No joke.
On the one hand, I agree with Cosby's premise. But on the other hand, who's going to hear the message or read (let alone buy)the book?!?!
More racial entertainment at the expense of decent and upstanding Black folk, I say.
"steve, here is your biggest problem: You want black folks to think of themselves in relation to white folks."
Al, stop it.
I know that the "we don't care about white folks" is a black conservative talking point but it won't work.
I bring up white parellels to prove that criminality and social dysfunctions are not peculiar to black people and don't understand why black people like you try to insist that they are.
Black middle class people have the same values and interests as middle class people of any hue.
You will see the same pathology and dysfunction among trailer park whites and barrio hispanics as you do among ghetto blacks.
You know that the stereotype of the black predator is presented and accepted by much of America as the true black male and you don't want that image reflected upon you.
Even though you seem to endorse it.
You black conservatives keep ranting about black criminality but offer no solutions for dealing with it by ordinary black citizens.
WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?
Nothing.
You just want to yap and carp so you can convince white folks that you hate dem terrible ghetto negroes even more than they do and please Mr. Charlie, don't think that I'm anything like "them".
It's enough to make you revisit your breakfast.
" btw, who says Liberia & Sierra Leone want these folk anyway?"
Oh that's the best part. Don't give away the ending!
SMH @ silly mad blacks who think everyone wants to be stuck together in the same cultural ghetto. Wait until they run into blacks with a long and well-defined history.
WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?
Not one you'd want to hear, since it doesn't involve welfare, hugs or more social programs. There are only 2 things you can do with socialized psychopaths and passive sociopaths (which much of the ghetto population can be shown to be):
1) Indefinite prison term
2) Execution
Once they lose their respect for human life there is no point worrying about Marshall plans or the like.
You black conservatives keep ranting about black criminality but offer no solutions for dealing with it by ordinary black citizens.
Well since individual accountability and responsibility are out of the question, I guess I can see your point Steve. It truly is complicated.
And us bougie, sell-out Negroes who dared to stay out of jail and graduate high school, really should be devising solutions out of this mess that we've created.
I know that everytime some brotha busts a cap at the subway station, or starts a fist fight in the shopping mall, I'm responsible for devising a solution to that brotha's problems.
You just want to yap and carp so you can convince white folks that you hate dem terrible ghetto negroes even more than they do and please Mr. Charlie, don't think that I'm anything like "them".
It's enough to make you revisit your breakfast.
Almost as much as watching black middle class peons suck up to the hood as though THEY are no different than the Michael Ball's (sic) of this world. As I was always told from young, know who you are and what you're about. If people -white or black- can't accept you for you then they're not dealing with. Steve, your constant coddling of the black image, which in general is nowhere near what you've achieved for yourself, smacks of a desire to fit in with a group to which you don't belong. This makes you no better than Clarence Thomas or anyone else you hate.
I bring up white parellels to prove that criminality and social dysfunctions are not peculiar to black people and don't understand why black people like you try to insist that they are.
Steve, no one said they are peculiar to blacks. Only that the criminality is worse (numbers and lethality) in the black underclass vs. middle class. Not only is it worse, but so many folk keep trying to explain it away or deny its existence.
I think the issue of crime in the black community is highly correlated with the prohibition of controlled substances demanded in the free market. We have history to teach us that prohibition on alcohol led to a radical uptick in violence and created a very violent era of American history. That era was brought to an end when prohibition was repealed.
If certain drugs were legalized the crime rate in the black community, the retail center for these drugs, would radically reduce over time. When one overlays a graph of drug usage against a graph of the rise in crime in the black community, one would find a nearly parallel phenomenon.
Don't talk about having a problem with crime if you are not willing to address prohibition.
"Only that the criminality is worse (numbers and lethality) in the black underclass vs. middle class.
I don't understand this statement.
The majority of the black community IS middle class.
"Not only is it worse, but so many folk keep trying to explain it away or deny its existence."
This is out and out nonsense.
" You black conservatives keep ranting about black criminality but offer no solutions for dealing with it by ordinary black citizens."
Steve:
I gave you one. Free wellfare benefits for life if they voluntarily renouce their citizenship and go to whatever African country will take them.
Cynapse
"There are only 2 things you can do with socialized psychopaths and passive sociopaths (which much of the ghetto population can be shown to be):
1) Indefinite prison term
2) Execution"
A black Bob Grant.
Problem here is that even though you sound just like him, Grant and his neighbors would still throw rocks through your window if you moved on his block.
You are one confused negro.
I'm confused because I want to jail criminals?
I think you're confused, actually. Criminals are BAD, in case you forgot that. Bob Grant's feelings about me are inconsequential since I'm not a criminal. Why the existence of white racists equates to a get out of free card is probably what's behind your confusion.
I think the center of Steve's philosphy is the old middle eastern term "The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend". Since white racists are Steve's primary enemy, anyone they don't like is ok by him. Most people who've passed high school understand the flaws in such thinking. In the meantime he can sit here and call us all confused because we don't throw all our support behind equally toxic people that white racists also hate.
Why you don't you just make the white man your God? Letting his hatred lower your principles out of spite borders on obsession.
"I'm confused because I want to jail criminals?"
So do I.
But you went so far as to paint all or most ghetto dwellers (blacks) as psychopaths and passive sociopaths.
Did you forget?
Most sociopaths are not criminals. The passive ones are the types who let people do everything for them and fiend for sympathy when taken to task - even when they are the aggressors. This describes a lot of so-called "depressed" people, emotionally abusive spouses, and pretty much 1/2 the pro-black movement after the Panthers got smashed.
“America can be a very hysterical country intellectually and very Puritanical, too. You probably have fun in private, but to the rest of the world you seem to hate fun - to be big on agendas and short on spontaneity. The image you present is one of appalling conformity. The thought police is what you are ruled by” – Doris Lessing 6/1999
I think the center of Steve's philosphy is the old middle eastern term "The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend". Since white racists are Steve's primary enemy, anyone they don't like is ok by him. Most people who've passed high school understand the flaws in such thinking. In the meantime he can sit here and call us all confused because we don't throw all our support behind equally toxic people that white racists also hate.
Cynapse,
Interesting theory. Reading his comments, it's not too hard to connect the dots. If we lived in the volative Middle East or in the former Soviet republics, one might understand that kind of attitude, not in the US, 2007.
One would think that both racists and criminals would be our enemies, neither is in our best interest or wishes us well.
jnexus, cynapse
If either one of you can produce a statement that I made on this board which indicates that I coddle criminals, I will never post here again.
Take all the time you need.
LaJane:
No Liberia would become racist as hell if you talked about importing large numbers of poor black Americans, there would be some hate speech that you have not heard in the West since HItler, I guarantee you. No one want them to be honest.
Noah,
So, are you saying that until the legalization of certain drugs, our brothers and sisters are doomed to an endless cycle of crime and poverty? Einstein is known to have said, "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a differet outcome is insane." Smell the victimology in your statement.
On some levels, I agree that perhaps some drugs ought to be legalized, but they doesn't take away from the fact that as of right now, they are illegal, and getting involved with them carries its consequences. Seeking outside changes is all well and good, but changing the mind must be first. Your statements seem to be no different than a racist, proclaiming us to be weak and unable to control our human urges, things more akin to describing animals.
Cynapse:
It is funn you mentioned that. My grandfather told me when I was in elementary school repeatedly...don't let me catch you acting like no "n----r"
and he would also say, there are only 3 things you can do with a "n----r"
1) enslave them
2)imprison them
3)kill them.
This is from a man who grew up in some serious Jim Crow.
He definately was not talking about all blacks, he was talking about the lower class who were doing nothing to be upwardly mobile.
"He definately was not talking about all blacks"
Well I would hope not since he had to look in the mirror everyday.
And if he's your grandfather, he damn sure wasn't staring at Pat Boone.
uptown,
Indirectly, your statements since arriving here at BR give credence to Cynapse's theory. Nothing more needs to be said or done.
Your challenge seems rather inflated and useless. People see or read the same things and get different interpretations all the time. It's no different here. Don't worry, I read your statements clearly with a glass of RACIALISM, which you and the queen most evidently portray, albeit ideologically different.
If either one of you can produce a statement that I made on this board which indicates that I coddle criminals, I will never post here again.
How about your innumerable and personally-insulting statements made to anyone who dares to suggest bringing down the hammer on crime-ridden communities? Social assistance and all these other touchy-feely solutions with spotty track records are coddling, and you reflexively oppose anyone who opposes them. A double negative: you like using it so I'm going to use it now.
Be gone
(actually, stay. you have cathartic value)
"Indirectly, your statements since arriving here at BR give credence to Cynapse's theory. Nothing more needs to be said or done."
That's because you CAN'T produce an example and really have no argument.
The bottom line is that I don't subscribe to your self-hating "ni__ers ain't $hit" attitude.
Why don't you just go see Michael Jackson's plastic surgeon and get the whole thing over with?
You're being childish again
Similarly, no one subscribes to your "I"m the same as a ni__er" theory of defeatist cohesion.
So you go hood it up and we'll look after ourselves.
Done?
The bottom line is that I don't subscribe to your self-hating "ni__s ain't $___t" attitude.
Why don't you just go see Michael Jackson's plastic surgeon and get the whole thing over with?
Ouch.
Touched a nerve.
But, I know, I know, your 'pro-blackness' is beyond reproach. One can't be 'pro-black' and law-and-order in your book. It's okay. We understand.
DH,
Good points about Liberia. And you're right, Liberia would be deemed racist by some. I guess we truly would learn how beautiful "Black" really is if your plan was proposed. If Democrats refuse or are unable to implement a Marshall Plan, I doubt Africa would be more willing.
Edited By Siteowner
Ripama - I think YOU sense hostility because Cosby is talking about things YOU don't like to hear. I've been waiting to hear for someone speak out for over 30 years.
--------------
You are so wrong. You must have never read my comments before. I have been saying the same things Cosby has forever. I have ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS agreed with this same message. So how do you mean that I'm seeing this because he's saying something I don't want to hear?
I was only saying that his tone gets in the way of the words sometimes.
JNexus,
Firstly, strength and weakness are relative terms. When was the baseline or benchmark set by humans enduring the equivalent of the “black condition”, in degree if not kind, to suggest that blacks “should” be able to overcome this on their own? We know not to expect that a 5 year old can do advanced calculus because the baseline of expectation has been set through understanding what the NORMAL capacities of 5 year olds are. We don’t know what’s NORMAL is in regards to how humans should naturally progress or handle what black people have endured in America. There are no case studies in which an oppressed group of people remained in their land of oppression and progressed and overcame challenges similar in degree and kind and rooted in race as in our case. Hence, I am not suggesting blacks are weak or strong I am simply using the case study of this nation’s history and prohibition and how the violence of that era rose sharply with prohibition laws and fell sharply when those laws were repealed. If it was good for the goose than it is good for the gander. That is not implying weakness….its applying what worked in the past.
Secondly, I am lost by your use of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. How is that applicable? It makes no sense in the context of legalizing these drugs unless you mean that it’s not likely that they will ever be legalized, so we should quit trying. People having been trying to talk people into simply changing their behavior…..and that has found little successes as well, therefore, is it not just as insane to talk the problem to death?
"Similarly, no one subscribes to your "I"m the same as a ni__er" theory of defeatist cohesion."
I'd like you to produce a statement of mine indicating that sentiment as well.
Once again, take all the time you need.
I DON'T believe in disposable human beings, I do not hate my own people or judge anyone according to their station in life or the size of their bank accounts.
The main reasons why black conservatives will never gain any signficant amount of support in the community is that your whole philosophy is based on self hatred and false assertions.
Edited By Siteowner
I hate when people respond to any criticism about black people with the "Not all black people are like that."
Of course not everyone is like that, but it isn't necessary to qualify that before every statement. The only people who think he's talking about ALL black people are either 1) living the way he's criticizing and think everyone lives like him or 2) Hope to dilute the message by accusing him of generalization.
When he talks about black people doing these things, he's talking about black people doing those things and no one else.
LaJane - I don't understand why his tone is such a problem? All that ball-grabbing thug posturing that goes on you'd think folks could take it...
------------
You'd think. What I meant to say is that those who are quick to disregard his comments will use his tone to dilute them. There are apologist out there just waiting for anything they can do invalidate his words and they'll use his tone to try and do it. I don't think they'd be successful at it, but they'll try.
LaJane,
Angie, I'm not attacking you. But I want you to understand why some black folks seem so hostile. I was that kid who was ostracized by whites for being black and hated by blacks for not being a moron. The talkin' white thing is very, very real.
-------
I was that kid too.
Angie,
I feel ya. Only racialists need that type of a qualifier to soothe their ego and "blackness."
Al - Angie, I don't know how you will take this but if there is a hostility, I understand it. I have that same hostility and it is not an anti-black thing. For me, its about seeing, first hand, honest and law abiding black folks being brought down by the dregs who don't care.
----------
I understand the hostility, but I don't agree with giving the message with a tone of hostility.
I think some of the hostility towards them comes from being associated with them and if that is the case, it isn't only their fault really.
Every race has its losers. We have too many in proportion to our general numbers, but the difference is, we are the only race that everyone (including ourselves) doesn't differentiate their good from their bad.
I do, however, sense that time is ending for blacks at least. I don't think non-blacks are ready to take us out of "one group" status, but many decent living blacks are deciding to take our culture back and ignore the excuses.
"When he talks about black people doing these things, he's talking about black people doing those things and no one else."
That makes a lot of sense.
unreal.
Noah,
Fair enough.
'I think the issue of crime in the black community is highly correlated with the prohibition of controlled substances demanded in the free market. We have history to teach us that prohibition on alcohol led to a radical uptick in violence and created a very violent era of American history. That era was brought to an end when prohibition was repealed.
If certain drugs were legalized the crime rate in the black community, the retail center for these drugs, would radically reduce over time. When one overlays a graph of drug usage against a graph of the rise in crime in the black community, one would find a nearly parallel phenomenon.'
Again, this if where my question lies. You seem to imply that if only our laws were changed, our crime rates would be reduced. Similary, if our people stopped using or dealing, the same effect is produced. Maybe I'm foolish, but I believe changing the inside, or your mind, is easier than changing the outside, or the environment, generally.
Thus, your comments, pointing merely to the changing of laws rather than using the responsibility and freedom that the Lord gave us to change our criminality rates seems to implicate a sense of inferiority and weakness on our brethren who are caught up. I used the word 'weak' because those statements, IMO, give more strength to the ink of a law than to the will and power of man.
Steve,
Hating black scum is not self-hatred unless you are scum yourself. That has 2 interesting implications:
1) You think I am scum (not exactly a revelation)
2) You think that in order to be "down" you have to be scum
#2 is literally self-hating. I feel about as much kinship with the gangstas and babymamas as I do with the KKK-supporting kids I fought in the schoolyard. The only difference between them is that I'm allowed to despise one group, and the other some people think I must treat like my own brother just because they are the same colour and hated by the same band of rabid racists. There is no logic in this forced association. I pity you for thinking that any criticism of any person belonging to the black race reflects on the "self"
"When he talks about black people doing these things, he's talking about black people doing those things and no one else."
That makes a lot of sense.
unreal.
Angie,
See what I mean.
It's so simple, a child could understand.
Interesting enough, some of our Caucasian brothers and sisters, maybe most, do the same thing, applying the specific to the general, especially when it relates to us as a people. Only difference, they are called racists. Those who do it in our community are CLAPPED AND CHEERED.
I hate scum period.
Duh.
The answer to the black underclass is to declare Marshall law in all high crime areas (black or otherwise) and enforce curfews, cut off welfare, make sure kids are in school and if not, go get them and put them in a book camp, on top of that fine their parents or take the kids from them completely. Execute drug dealers and shot to kill anyone who does not stop for the police.
After 5 years of hard discipline and civilizing the ghetto will be safe and clean and you can then start trying to bring in investment...but not before the areas are stable and safe.
That will take something that America at this point does not have the heart to do. Gang members nad drug deales need to be shot on sight or arrested and executed. It should be a felony just to belong to a gang (wear colors, etc). Work programs should be created and volunary. Work or go to jail your choice. No iddle able body negros allowed to walk the street when roads need to be fixed, schools repaired, etc.
IT is quite obvious a good % of these folks are not civilized, they lack the cultural norms that are condusive to living in a developed 1st world nation and they live far more like people in the 3rd world. This will be an excersize in bringing civilization to these people.
If we don't...I'm afraid if the crime ever completely permiates American society to the point where the suburbs are not safe and neither are gated communities the backlash against blacks will be very bad. Best to clean it up now and not wait till millions of more bastards are dropped in a ghetto near you and grow up to be hoods...on top of the Hispanic underclass we are importing...2030-2050 is going to be real interesting in America...real interesting. Marshall is coming...for some folks, just depends on how.
I hate scum period.
BS. If that scum is black you can't wait to defend them like they're your own mama.
I see little difference between ghetto trash and the white trash I'm more used to going to war with. Difference is I apparently can only love myself by giving infinite passes to one of those groups. That makes absolutely no sense.
[quote]If certain drugs were legalized the crime rate in the black community, the retail center for these drugs, would radically reduce over time. When one overlays a graph of drug usage against a graph of the rise in crime in the black community, one would find a nearly parallel phenomenon.
Don't talk about having a problem with crime if you are not willing to address prohibition.[/quote]
PURE, UNCUT PSYCHOBABLE.
Noah - YOU ARE BLACK.
Why aren't YOU on drugs?
(Or are you? This would explain a whole lot).
I assure you that once drugs are made legal Noah The Iowan would complain about the Marketing MBAs who have been trained upon the Black community to MAXIMIZE THE PROFITS for the corporation by MAXIMIZING the addiction that Black people have.
Noah will then complain about how the Dope Boys that use to make the money are now shut out because KOREANS now own all of the drug distribution centers in the hood. Also the corporate outlets require a COLLEGE DEGREE and thus there are no more outlets for the young Black male - in Noah's world.
Finally after seeing more Black people strung out because criminal risks and societal pressure has been reduced Noah will realize the reduced number of Blacks who are sober enough to join in on the PROGRESSIVE movement forward.
He will realize his mistake - it is a ZERO SUM GAME after all.
Steve,That makes a lot of sense.
unreal.
-------
It would make sense to people who have sense. People who respond to his comments by saying "All black people aren't like that" don't have sense, so I can see why it wouldn't comprehend.
I can try to make it simpler for you. If he is telling black parents to not talk Ebonics to their kids, he's only saying that to the black parents who talk Ebonics to their kids, not black parents. But folks like you will still come back with "Not all black parents talk Ebonics to their kids."
When he says that black parents aren't promoting the value of education to their kids, he's criticizing black parents who are not promoting education to their kids, not all black parents. But folks like you will still come back with "Not all black parents are like that."
I doubt you'll still understand, but it doesn't get any simpler than that.
Cynapse, you're a pathetic liar.
jnexus,
Answer this for me.
Why do you think that the preponderance of the black middle and upper class reject your views?
Don't believe me?
Come around the most exclusive areas of Price Georges County, the richest black area in the world, and spew some of the stuff you say here and watch the reception you get.
That's quite an accusation. What do you base it on, I wonder ...
Steve:
Challenge - say 1 bad thing about the black underclass
:D
Hey Angie,
"It would make sense to people who have sense. People who respond to his comments by saying "All black people aren't like that" don't have sense, so I can see why it wouldn't comprehend."
So why reflexively mention race when speaking of criminality if you are not trying to make a connection between the two?
"Challenge - say 1 bad thing about the black underclass"
Let's see what 'ol Cynapse would like to hear.
Ghetto blacks don't wash regularly.
They talk funny and give their kids names that end in "ika".
Happy now?
What a moron.
"Hating black scum"
That's just sad.
Steve,
If that's what you think then you're even more dense than I thought. Let me guess - you got teased by white kids as a child and haven't gotten over it, right?
What we need around here is a detractor with a SERIOUS argument.
"Hating black scum"
That's just sad.
We've seen the effects of excusing them and it's not been missed that those who defend the loudest also seem to live a safe distance away. Could we really be talking about degrees of honesty as opposed to whether there is an aversion. Food for thought before you go into Captain save-a-thug mode.
"Let me guess - you got teased by white kids as a child and haven't gotten over it, right?"
Whatever dude.
What's obvious to me is that alot of you black righties got teased by everybody you came in contact with and as a result you don't know who the hell you are.
LOL I know exactly who I am and what I'm not. You're the one trying to adopt everyone dark under some large cultural ghetto. I can't wait until there are more black Nigerians and Caribbeans in the States. Maybe you will realize that we aren't all the same, never were and never will be
Culture > Race
No matter what your childhood tormentors told you.
Steve is the kind of fool that won't wake up until his wife, mother, sister, or daughter gets raped, brutalized, and murdered by some street thug negro.
At that point, something might penetrate his titaniam dense skull and enlighten him with some knowledge as to what others are trying to tell him.
You seem to prove your disdain for the black underclass constantly. The black underclass is not scum by any measure. They are my cousins, aunts friends etc.
I have no special need to call anyone scum b/c I don't believe anyone intends to live in dire circumstances.
If that's your premise for the black underclass, I now must look at all of your comments with the jaded eye that you view many, 5 to 20% of blacks as scum.
I don't view anyone in those terms, particularly children.
At that point, something might penetrate his titaniam dense skull and enlighten him with some knowledge as to what others are trying to tell him.
Yeah we'll see how much he's pumping his fist when the violence comes home. Too bad that black criminals don't have the same feelings of "brotherhood" - his collectivist babble might actually start to make sense.
JNexus,
People act from a benefit/cost calculation based upon the perceived tangibility of their options. The benefit/cost calculus changes considerably when the profit for drug dealing is taken out the equation. Profits from drug dealing created opportunities that created rivals for market share. This rivalry and competition manifested via gun violence. This drug violence then morphed the general culture in many communities to see extreme violence as a way of solving ones disputes. It also created the type of fear that made people kill as a result of fearing they would be killed if they did not fire first.
What I am saying to you is that people makes choices based upon OPTIONS. When you remove certain option you therefore remove the choice and hence behavior is changed. What you are talking about removes no options. In a free society predicated upon individualism, you have not demonstrated to me how you are going to change behavior by the simple power of suggestion. What is it that you know about the potential consequences of drug dealing that drug dealers do not know? Hence, how are your suggestions to essentially “just say no to drug dealing” going to change behavior? For a kid growing up in the projects dirt poor feeling that he has to be “the man” and help provide for his younger siblings and sees an opportunity for some quick cash selling drugs….what is your suggestion going to do for him? His needs are immediate and for the moment and hence so are his actions.
For the person who asked me why I am not a drug dealer despite being blacks……the answer is because I was scared of the game. My oldest brother sold drugs and had new cars while in the 9th grade with no driver’s license. If you want a complete answer please visits my blog and read my essay on how or I made it out the ghetto. There you will find the answer.
Steve - So why reflexively mention race when speaking of criminality if you are not trying to make a connection between the two?
--------
I haven't. You're arguing with so many people, you don't know who said what.
Mark: Do you live in the ghetto? If there are no scum there then why not? Everyone's the same, no more crime there than a white surburb according to Steve...
Would you let your wife, daughter, sister walk the street at 1AM on Saturday in the ghetto?
Every race has its losers. We have too many in proportion to our general numbers, but the difference is, we are the only race that everyone (including ourselves) doesn't differentiate their good from their bad.
I agree. And we DO differentiate (Chris Rock tried) as many folks have tried to do on BR and the rest of the country, we are called:
elitist, self-hating ___, shufflin, shuckin & jivin, no man having, KKK etc.....
Come around the most exclusive areas of Price Georges County, the richest black area in the world, and spew some of the stuff you say here and watch the reception you get.
uptownsteve | Homepage | 10.15.07 - 1:41 pm | #
*chuckle* at you hyping PG. Since you love PG so much why don't you make sure those "non-disposable" folks you love don't drag it further down the drain..
DH, I don't hate anyone and I don't call anyone scum. That's not productive and I believe it is immoral. I believe in justice, however.
I think such statements have very little use b/c they don't mean anything other than to demean and vent.
Look at this thread and you'll can see firsthand how such thinking devolves.
Where I'd want my wife and kids to live in utterly irrelevant as to whether a group of people, any people, should be tagged with the term "scum".
Angie,
"I haven't (made a connection between race and crime). You're arguing with so many people, you don't know who said what."
Oh no you don't.
Here's your quote.
"When he talks about black people doing these things, he's talking about black people doing those things and no one else."
What is the relevance of race here?
Why not just discuss bad people and criminals who should be locked up?
The black middle class has lost it mind, to me at least, b/c the black middle class isn't that far removed from the black underclass.
Depending on what you consider middle class, those stats should be a wake up call to blind middle class blacks also.
That's the problem with black class distinction -- many of us are only a job, a bad cop, or a paycheck away from being tested like those in the underclass.
Be careful who you spit on, it might be you.
I think YOU sense hostility because Cosby is talking about things YOU don't like to hear. I've been waiting to hear for someone speak out for over 30 years.
Waiting... Waiting... Waiting.
But not doing anything your self?
Jesse Jackson spoke at my high school 30 years ago and didn't mention one word about "whitey" or "oppression".
Yep, that matches what I heard when he spoke as well.
My hostility is justified because where I live is being disproportionately ghettoized by a few people, and idiots like Dyson sit atop their ivory towers and attack Cosby.
Meanwhile, you have previously written that you won't help try to solve the problem, that all you want to
do is complain about it.
On the one hand, I agree with Cosby's premise. But on the other hand, who's going to hear the message or read (let alone buy)the book?!?!
That's what I've said for years now, but hey, what do I know?
Mark:
No it has revelvance to your belief in your ideology.
I'm not a hypocrite you and Steve are...you talk all this noise but don't live with the dontrodden angels you talk about.
Tell me something else...your lower class family?
Why are they poor? What white racism made them poor?
If they are poor why aren't you? You just get lucky and hit the negro lottery?
I have no special need to call anyone scum b/c I don't believe anyone intends to live in dire circumstances.
If that's your premise for the black underclass, I now must look at all of your comments with the jaded eye that you view many, 5 to 20% of blacks as scum.
I don't view anyone in those terms, particularly children.
Mark M | 10.15.07 - 2:08 pm | #
I don't belive many people INTEND to live in dire circumstances. I do know that too many people do not take affirmative steps to -if not ameliorate their circumstances - at least refrain from making said circumstances hopeless. I do know that too many people (within the underclass and without) would rather elevate themselves by keeping misery as normative.
For me PERSONALLY, scum is as scum does. As a female, who has to protect herself from rape, I think of scum in the lowest terms. Violent, predatory, amoral, rapacious cretins who masquerade as humans with dark skin.
Unfortunately Mark, some children become (are made into) scum at an early age = DUNBAR VILLAGE. Sure, I bet someone can think of a reason why raping a woman, forcing her to perform acts on her son and pouring bleach on her is the white man's fault or the fault of poor schools. But when it comes down to it, they are scum. They are lost. I would rather save poor black mothers and their INNOCENT children than worry about those aggressors. The silence in the black community regarding Dunbar actually warrants the cold and unforgiving stance taken by some people on this blog.
Sure every community has scum, but the concern is what these folks are doing to the underclass - like your family that are law-abiding decent folk. I can understand your philosophical aversion to considering people as lost causes. I am too pragmatic to do otherwise. But the fear is that well-meaning people like you will be swayed to protecting the underclass - including its parasites - instead of excising those people from underclass communities. Therby sacrifcing the people you portend to love.
I know I seem harsh, but yeah, I hate scum more than anyone on Faux news ever could. Why....because I see what they do to the best of my people.
I had Klansmen live a couple of miles down the road from me growing up. Sure, I hated them. But they didn't @#*! with me. I don't see them on the 6:00 news for taking some little girl out. I don't hear them hollerin about my ass and then calling me a bitch when I don't respond.
What is the relevance of race here?
----------
There was no reference to criminals in that comment. Cosby does not just talk about crime, he talks about sexual responsibilty, education and parenting in general.
Maybe YOU only think of crime when you think of blacks, but that doesn't mean I do. It's not at all what I was limiting myself too, so you were just getting that mixed up with yourself, not me.
Steve - Why not just discuss bad people and criminals who should be locked up? - A clear sign of someone losing an argument and needing to bring in that last ditch effort to deflect.
Why? Because that isn't the topic he wanted to discuss - He has made the choice to talk about blacks because that is a topic that particularly interest him. It is his community, where he has focused his time, efforts, charitable contributions & life. He is focusing on the aspects of our culture that lead to negative behaviors because that's what he wants to focus on.
Cosby is obviously not as concerned about whites/others as you are. Good for you. White people will be very proud that you are just as concerned about the direction of their race as you are about blacks. But maybe Cosby & his partner, with this book, don't feel that every negative thing some blacks do needs to be compared to every negative thing whites/non-blacks do in order to be analyzed and discussed.
The class distinction isn't even the issue because there are poor blacks who live decent, moral, responsible and crime-free lives.
This is about a distinction between blacks who are trying(because no one is perfect at it) to live lives that are in the best interest of themselves, their community, their future and their families and those who aren't.
Angie
LOL!!!!
Some of you are so emotional.
DH, what does scum have to do with where I live? You're on your soapbox again. The problem is that this one, like others, is more rant than thought.
I live around with people of like income and aspirations and I socialize primarily with family and people in my profession
That doesn't mean those who don't fit my life are scum.
What is scum, exactly, to you? That might illuminate on this subject of middle class blacks, right off the boat, railing against their kin.
Scum, to me, means no redeeming value. I would be hard pressed to assign that title to most people in the underclass.
Is the woman who works as a maid and uses crack scum?
How about the drug addict?
What about the teenager with three kids?
The callousness bred by the rightwing ideology the last 30 years has bred this need to devalue people, rather than their actions.
That's the problem with black class distinction -- many of us are only a job, a bad cop, or a paycheck away from being tested like those in the underclass.
Be careful who you spit on, it might be you.
Most people live below the poverty line at some point in their lives.
One of the poorest sections in Toronto is the area right around U of T. Students are extremely poor, which by the logic of the ghetto guardian, means they should be wilding out in the streets, popping out babies and shooting each other like carnies.
Obviously this doesn't happen, which implies the "scum" designation obviously is more than just income.
Everyone here who is on their high horse needs to be ashamed of themselves.
Today, Shay posted about Concerned Black Men, a mentoring group of Black men (and other races from my experience), who are taking the time to reach out to younger Blacks to mentor them and show them a better path to life.
Yet not once comment here, at this point, mentions mentoring. Not one comment has mentioned showing people who are being irresponsible, how to live responsibly.
Not one.
And given the probability that the Blacks posting here are middle class and above, and decently educated, you REALLY SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES that instead of the piss ant back and forth, not ONE person has commented on helping "those" people to do better!
Steve - LOL!!!!
-------
Wow, I don't have a comeback for that great point.
Steve - Some of you are so emotional.
---------
I'm not at all too emotional. I've been sharing your posts with my sister while I'm typing and we're cracking up at how much your comments are grasping.
You're the one that can't post two comments or have an argument without calling people names. I've never done that.
DH, why does it have to devolve into trash talk? No need.
If you read my response, you'd see that I answered your question-- I choose to live around people with like aspirations and little crime and a good school system.
You're free to take that as you like.
Too much trash talking, too little substance. LOL
Mark:
save your selective outrage for Steve...over trash talking...
You just confirmed what I thought...you are the same as a white limo liberal who talks about things he does not have to live the consequences of.
HEY! Watch the language guys before Shay shuts this post down.
My corporate law class was cancelled, so I can do this all day.
-----------
Dark Star - You're right. We do spend so much more time on negative than positive, but that might be because no one really disagrees about the positive.
And I also agree that people don't do enough to help, but I don't feel ashamed because 1) I do contribute to my community. Since I started law school (I also work full time), I haven't done as much as I used to but I volunteer regularly in SE and I did when I lived in Chicago. So does my BF. I wouldn't want to associate with anyone who didn't. 2) I don't really know how much you can really help people make moral, legal and responsible choices.
Why are you so emotional?
-- Don't fall for that response. My BF is a psych major (which you don't have to be to identify that tactic) and that is a commonly used response by people who don't have a comeback in an argument. They hope to make your comments seem unreasonable by labeling you emotional or try to end the conversation because they've lost.
Angie:
yeah I know. Funny isn't it?
"Exactly right...thank you."
But underclass of all hues have the same values!
THAT's the point.
But underclass of all hues have the same values!
THAT's the point.
-----
But do all communities treat their underclass the same way?
THAT's the IMPORTANT point.
Wow, steve is catching it from all directions. Its like that soccer drill where the people make a circle around a goalie and radomly kick the ball at him/her and he/she is supposed to block it.
HEY GOALIE! OVER HERE!
steve, I see you are still fixating on white folks... the very people who do NOT live in black communities.
Dark Star - You're right. We do spend so much more time on negative than positive, but that might be because no one really disagrees about the positive.
This isn't about going about fixing the problem.
I don't really know how much you can really help people make moral, legal and responsible choices.
Provide alternatives. "Hey, this may help you in your situation. You can ..."
I've told friends about investing as a means of growing wealth, the concept of paying yourself first or second depending upon if you tithe or not, education alternatives, education improvement, parenting options... Taking kids out for fun activities, when out with kids, listening to them and telling them how to behave responsibly, etc.
You don't have to join a group, you can just reach out in your own small circle of life.
Everything is relative. What I find lacking here is an establishing of a baseline for what is NORMAL. Can we agree that the black condition in America has not been NORMAL? How do I conclude that? How can I conclude that the black experience was not NORMAL without juxtaposing it with the experience of most others? Should we therefore expect a NORMAL resultant from abnormal conditions or stimuli? The black condition cannot be analyzed in vacuum. Expectations has to be set based upon what we have available for comparison in regards to the human experience. The black position in this society is the HUMAN consequences/resultant of the abnormal or peculiar (as in the peculiar institution) collective experience as a people. Hence, given the peculiarity or our experience, whose is qualified to say where we should and should not be as a people? Who is to say that our behavior is in anyway inferior? Who is to say that we have not actually been superior in that more of us should actually have been trapped in the underclass…based upon what is NORMAL for humans? Hence, without establishing what is normal one cannot establish what is abnormal, yet, that is what many here are doing.
Finally, every life is different and faces different challenges in degree and or kind. Variation in life experience exists in families as well. The life experience of siblings can be radically different outside of the home as well as inside of the home. Given the varying nature of individual experience and individual genetics, rarely does anyone walk in other shoes to be able to pass judgment. If you have not walked in a person shoes how can you be so sure that you would have turned out differently?
"But do all communities treat their underclass the same way?"
Pretty much.
As Darkstar just pointed out, the Asian communities "don't snitch".
They hope to make your comments seem unreasonable by labeling you emotional or try to end the conversation because they've lost.
Angie | Homepage | 10.15.07 - 3:02 pm | #
Ironically, that is a tactic used by white folks (males in particular) when racism is being discussed.
I don't know exactly what a limo liberal is but if it means believing in the potential of all humnans and instituting policies based on human potential rather than punishment and living my life as I want to live it, so be it.
We're all a paycheck, a health problem or a bad cop away from facing the underclass.
Make sure that exclusive clob many of you want is big enough to include you. LOL
Steve:
You want to know what Asian kids are doing?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...-
2005Mar21.html
"Asian American students have higher average SAT scores than any other government-monitored ethnic group, and selective colleges routinely reject them in favor of African American, Hispanic and even white applicants with lower scores in order to have more diverse campuses and make up for past discrimination.
"
College Percentage
UC Berkeley 42
UCLA 38
Caltech 27
MIT 27
Stanford 25
Cooper Union 23
Pennsylvania 18
Harvard 17
Swarthmore 16
Brown 14
Columbia 14
Rice 14
Juilliard 13
Yale 13
Amherst 12
Dartmouth 12
Pomona 12
Princeton 12
Georgetown 10
Washington U.
St. Louis 10
Source: U.S. News & World Report 2004
Meanwhile Asians are only 6% of the population of America...but overrepresented at almost every major school.
What are kids in your County doing?
Mark:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Lim...mousine_liberal
Out of curiousity, in your opinion what should we do when the action that needs to be done/advice that needs to be given is not welcomed by those who ostensibly want help?
You keep trying. You may need to try different ways, but you keep trying.
If the kids are B.A.K. and the mother/father/care givers don't see a problem, try to get the kids for activities and say, "OK, when you are with me, this is how I expect you to behave" and go from there.
I really want to mentor a little girl (although some members of the extended fam need attention & get priority). However, I will not humor any bull[clang] singing or rap dreams.
Yes you can, just provide alternatives. Get her around other women who are doing things besides cosmetology. (I was just in this conversation Sat. night while whippin' up on people in Spades). One person took your approach when my "niece" said she wanted to run a beauty shop. I said that she needed to learn the science behind the hair products like dies, lyes, and the like so she has to make sure she understands science. Her father said that she also has to be aware of running a business because one shop won't get you rich, but a chain of well run shops will.
You just have to provide an alternate environment and show there are more things to life than where she is.
Noah ~ out of curiousity, you're not African (as Ghanaian, Malian, Kenyan, Gambian) are you?
Steve, read my comment to Dark Star about snitching. The word has been conflated w/ witness intimidation.
However, the glorification of unwarranted non-cooperation with the police has obfuscated a very serious problem. This is a problem done only by blacks to blacks, where only blacks suffer.
I ain't seen Pham Nguyen on tv talkin about STOP SNITCHIN!!
Huh, DH, you show your stripes on this yet again. You have know idea where I came from, who I associate with or any other connection I have to the underclass other than I just mentioned I don't live in an underclass area.
Make sure that exclusive clob many of you want is big enough to include you. LOL
Can't speak for anyone else, but it's never been about being in a club. It's about being responsible and self-sufficient. If it isn't recognized here then it will be recognized somewhere else. If it was good enough for my great aunt (the first licensed black pilot in the US - go look it up) then it's good enough for me in 2006.
The problem is that, at their core, black people really just want whites to like them. Growing up with them, I'm not convinced that is collectively possible. In the meantime there are enough laws, grants and educational opportunities to make your own way. Most other minorities seem to do it without a problem and without the overtly dramatic and history-minded displays of "rage" that blacks seem to like so much.
So there is no "club" unless you start one yourself. But you'd be amazed who will do business with you when you drop the rage and act COMPETENTLY.
"What are kids in your County doing?"
I can tell you what my sons are doing.
My oldest son is a member of the National Honor Society, graduated summa cum laude from Howard University Business school and is currently interning at a DC investment firm
My 11 year old consistently scores in the 10th percentile countywide in math, reading comprehension and problem solving.
They will be among the leaders of our next generation.
"My oldest son is a member of the National Honor Society, graduated summa cum laude from Howard University Business school and is currently interning at a DC investment firm
My 11 year old consistently scores in the 10th percentile countywide in math, reading comprehension and problem solving.
"
Those are impressive things to be proud of. Thank their mom from giving them the high IQ genes.
I'm out. Let me know when the debate gets back on track.
See yaw!
"However, the glorification of unwarranted non-cooperation with the police has obfuscated a very serious problem. This is a problem done only by blacks to blacks, where only blacks suffer."
Oh this just total bullcrap.
I grew up in NYC and in Italian neighborhoods, "rats" and "snitches" wound up dead.
Cynapse, we all have stories like your aunt. My uncle was the first to get an chemical engineering degree at a certain college in Louisiana where he graduated 2nd in his class. That same family had a brother who went to Nam, and but for his siblings, one would have been a bum living on the streets. One of his brothers quit school to work on the farm in the 6th grade and never made more than minimum wage his whole life, with a wife and 5 kids. Are any of these people scum.
I have a law degree and have been successful in terms of career and business thus far, but I have a brother who's not done well at all and had kids out of wedlock. I help all of them from time to time. I also have relatives who came from good families who've spent time in jail on drug charges.
So, when people speak of the underclass as "scum", they are speaking about me and mine. They are not scum in the least.
Pay your price for you choices in life, but don't look at any human being as scum or irredeemable.
My oldest son is a member of the National Honor Society, graduated summa cum laude from Howard University Business school and is currently interning at a DC investment firm
My 11 year old consistently scores in the 10th percentile countywide in math, reading comprehension and problem solving.
Steve, list the things you did to get them on this track and how you had to intercede if they left the track.
187 comments already?! At this rate, this thread may become the most commented thread of all time on Booker Rising ("Booker Rising Mini-Rant: Another Baby Mama", posted last month about Halle Berry, leads the pack at 236 posts, followed by "Growing Jungle Fever Among Black Women" in August, with 232 comments)
Angie, I don't know you but I sense that you are Old School to the bone. Glad to see you doing the right thing.
XXXX
LaJane - what should we do when the action that needs to be done/advice that needs to be given is not welcomed by those who ostensibly want help?
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I face this same dilemna. I am committed to service because it is a part of my values. I believe the best way you can contribute is through the people you interact with daily. However, whenever I try to share advice with black folks like Dark Star suggested(including those who actually ask for it), I get labeled an elitist or trying to please white people.
In my last job, I managed 5 people. 2 white males, an Asian female and one black female. I tried very hard to mentor the sister, but every time I tried, she felt I was trying to make her pleasing to white people.
One example: When I told her not to chew gum in a business meeting (including making that smacking sound), she got angry. I asked her why she thought neither I, nor any of the other black managers chewed gum during meetings, she said it was because we were sell outs.
In Chicago, I mentored a group of black pre-teens in a community center class. These girls didn't know basic things like how to stay hygenic(sp?) during their periods. I understood that they just needed direction that they weren't getting, but when I would try and give it, the response was always smacking of the lips, rolling of the eyes and a rejection of my advice as some quest to be "white."
This is just my experience with some people, not all, which is why I won't stop volunteering & giving, but it is difficult to help someone make the right choices. Sometimes the only way you can do it is by making them yourself and showing off the rewards.
Sorry that was a long post - I hate those.
"I grew up in NYC and in Italian neighborhoods, "rats" and "snitches" wound up dead."
Fair point steve but you cannot compare La Cosa Nostra to the low-level scumbags that are terrorizing our neighborhoods. Mafioso do not kidnap law abiding women who attend college, rape them, brutalize them, and kill them just for the heck of it. By the way, I just mentioned Ramona Moore.
When someone gets rubbed out (ie: Carmine Galante, Sonny Black, or Paule Castellano), it is extremely rare when innocents get caught up in the crossfire. And when those guys are assassinated, it is via the consent of a hierarchy usually for reasons related to the maintenance of the organized criminal activities not because someone looked at someone the wrong way or they were wearing a blue or red bandana.
Steve, there you go again with trying to draw attention from the things that ravage our community by talking about people who don't live in our community.
Ahem. As a math literate I must remind uptownsteve that the 10th percentile means the bottom 90%. The 90th percentile is the top 10%. As for DC investment firms, well.. I imagine that's an estimable job but it's not what I would consider leadership. (just piling on here)
Cobb - Angie, I don't know you but I sense that you are Old School to the bone.
--------------
I think I am, but its so funny because just this weekend my BF was accusing me of the exact opposite. He said that I need to look more towards the old school traditional values to find solutions and I'm like, WTF have I been saying for the last year? So, thanks.
Cobb/Mike, you should be ashamed of yourself as well.
Try to steer the discussion in the right way, or get out of the way.
Now, MY COMMENT was Old School. Do YOU recognize?
Steve, there you go again with trying to draw attention from the things that ravage our community by talking about people who don't live in our community.
--------
He can't stop. It's hilarious.
As for Asians and crime and Asians and scholarship, that's a bunch of statistical hooey. Out here in California, we know our Hmong from our Chinese from our Vietnamese from our Koreans from our Japanese, and we make distinctions among the generations. And we haven't even begun to talk about Indians, Tamils and Pakistanis. So don't peddle your model minority stereotypes at Booker Rising. Some of us are too swift for that.
"Thank their mom from giving them the high IQ genes."
And they have daddy's looks so they can't miss.
Darkstar
"Steve, list the things you did to get them on this track and how you had to intercede if they left the track."
I'm sure they're the same things you do for your children.
You feed em regularly. Send them to school with a full belly. Give them a warm secure place to live. Nice clean clothes to wear.
Let them know that you love them, will protect them and that their needs will be met.
Make them accountable for their actions.
Make them earn privileges and rewards
Let them know that they are the most important things in your life and that nothing comes before them.
That's pretty much what we did.
I always recognize you DS. You have been a voice of common sense and moderation, not to mention kick-ass fact checking for decades. You don't get the props you deserve.
steve,
by the way, don't even try to mention the numerous people killed by Sammie the Bull. Those guys were either wiseguys, associates, or persons who knowingly got into business with the mob. The mob kills their own. The thugs you see on the street corners kill anyone who gets in the way. At least there was a method to the mob's madness.
Cobb
I meant the top 10%.
Folks are straying off topic, so I'm starting to delete off-topic comments. Steve & Dragon Horse, I also don't like your name calling antics on my blog. I shouldn't have to remind you a ton of times to civilly argue your point on my blog.
My comments are hardly comparable to DH's vulgarity and name calling.
Actually, Angie, that post is a fraction of what I and others have done.
Your point is excellent.
THAT is the dilemma I'm talking about regarding mentoring.
The truth is, for children to succeed they must dissociate themselves mentally (if not physically) from dysfunction. As family can often pull individuals under AND the family unit as a whole.
As for the examples you've given, it's a catch 22. Don't help = turning back on community; do help = elitism.
Interestingly the things you have focused on in your mentoring would help combat some of the most pernicious stereotypes about black women, yet you are being fought tooth and nail. (Regarding hygiene, you might have to tell them that if they don't take care of themselves those guys they like will be calling them fish!! I saw this happen to a girl in elementary school, it was really, really sad.)
How do you make someone understand that they are sabotaging themselves?
Our office has an employee that in the private sector would be fired - & deservedly so. This woman has to be in her 50s. You can't do anything for someone at that point. Her daughter is headed the same damn way.
LaJane - Regarding hygiene, you might have to tell them that if they don't take care of themselves those guys they like will be calling them fish!!
--------
Don't even get me started on telling them how to dress. 12 year olds with thongs showing. Seriously, it was a difficult situation because I was naive and had no idea of their ignorance which was not their fault at all. Some of the girls were very interested in getting out from under where they were, so not all of them were like that.
I remember girls like that in school.
Their homelives were so depressing. Some girls really had a chance though. They were usually the quiet, soft-spoken ones. All they need was a new address.
GRANDMOTHERS (w/ a 30 year age span) would allow them to have sex at 13 (& younger) as long he takes you somewhere nice.
Yet, I wasn't authentically black.
THAT is self-hatred.
Interestingly the things you have focused on in your mentoring would help combat some of the most pernicious stereotypes about black women, yet you are being fought tooth and nail. (Regarding hygiene, you might have to tell them that if they don't take care of themselves those guys they like will be calling them fish!! I saw this happen to a girl in elementary school, it was really, really sad.)
How do you make someone understand that they are sabotaging themselves?
You keep trying.
LaJane and Angie, I remember overhearing a conversation between two female students last Spring. They were bragging about how young their mothers were when they had them. Finally the "winner" of this competition mentioned that her grandmother had her mother when she was 16 and that the grandfather was 14. She then closed by saying that she wanted to have a lot of children at which point the other girl said that when she has her baby, she is going to give it to her mother so she could "hang out in the street." Both of these students were in 8th grade.
Like it or not, we have developed a political culture in America in which it is generally frowned upon to call black folks on their s**t. It started in the 70s after people realized that we were not going to burn America down and make any progress. This was the era of crossover and all the murals that showed the black hand shaking the white hand. The premise of colorblindness was sold to white America which basically said, don't say anything about race that's bad. You all do remember what blacks on TV looked like in the 70s don't you?
I feel silly recounting the fundaments of white liberal sympathy politics, where it was considered proper that everything bad that happened to blackfolks was America's fault, and oh we're so sorry, we didn't realize how bad it was for you poor dears, here let us sponsor one of your underprivileged kids to day-camp. The attitude was, OK we fought with the parents let's be nice to the kids, and everything will work out - but that was not a realistic politics of dealing with harsh issues, and it certainly was not focused on black values and virtues but government concessions and programs.
Political Correctness didn't just come out of nowhere, there was a real and palpable culture and politics of saying no harm. I say form of sweet talk grew into what I call 'rhetorical patronage'. Politicians show up at black churches during campaign season (like Hilar... oh never mind) and talk about a bright tomorrow. But joint parties taking responsibility? The two sides never even learned to talk.
The corollary is that black politics never learned how to take criticism. All you have to do is suggest 'anti-black' and the world comes crumbling down.
It couldn't stay that way forever, that's why 'the black community' broke apart and people started airing dirty laundry.
That's what this is all about - whether or not African Americans can handle criticism that hits home. As long as black partisans suck off the tit of Jonathan Kozol and his ilk, it will never happen.
The corollary is that black politics never learned how to take criticism. All you have to do is suggest 'anti-black' and the world comes crumbling down.
This is b.s. Blacks have been criticizing things like the NAACP, Jackson, Sr., and Sharpton, and others FOR YEARS, and you know it.
It couldn't stay that way forever, that's why 'the black community' broke apart and people started airing dirty laundry.
The same mag that put Clarence Thomas on the front cover as Aunt Jemimah and a lawn jockey, had an issue that looked into the positives and negatives of "Black leaders". THey had an issue that looked into Jackson, Sr. and Farrakhan, after the MMM and neither was spared being criticized. The same mag addressed drug use and crime and OOW birth rates.
Since when is Black media not considered to be "in public"?
And do YOU have any comments about mentoring?
Cobb, I think one of our biggest mistakes was favoring the dream of integration over the practicality of strengthening and refining black institutions. The black mainstream thought it more valuable to take a dump and smell the odor of the white dude in the next stall than to own the black construction company that built the building that housed the stalls where this perverted scenario plays out.
I am amazed at how many residents of the black left will reference Farrakhan and Elijah Muhammad then scream bloody murder when integrationist strategy is questioned. I have to be cynical on this one and refer to the following maxim: Follow the Money. I guess it was more advantageous to Mau Mau IBM into submission rather than to commit sweat and hard work to North Carolina Mutual. This continues today. I guess Jesse and Al see no money in focusing their resources towards a bunch of poor schlubs in a housing project. Its much more lucrative to extort Nike and Apple Computers.
Cobb, I think one of our biggest mistakes was favoring the dream of integration over the practicality of strengthening and refining black institutions.
Yada yada yada
yak yak yak
More infantile armchair quarterbacking about the past but doesn't do jack about now.
Tell me about mentoring, or shut up and go on the sidelines....
I didn't even read the comments. I was too busy LMAO at this post.
Dyson needs to go somewhere and sit down.
Any Negro who uses a PhD to defend the use of the word N____r, just needs to go away.
Cosby is on point.
No N-word on the blog. Thanks.
Edited By Siteowner
Al - I think one of our biggest mistakes was favoring the dream of integration over the practicality of strengthening and refining black institutions.
---------
Al - I agree with you. Whites thought that just being their presence would somehow improve us. I don't think many blacks bought that, but knew that integration was the only way to get access. I believe that most of them would have preferred "separate but equal" if it could ever really be equal.
But ultimately "separate but equal" could never be equal if its based on something as insidious as race.
Off topic, I know but I also think that integration (which I am in favor of) contributed to an exodus of black role models from the community which was one of the causes of the degrading values in many communities.
Regarding mentoring, I don't think you give up with kids (unless you feel your safety threatened - a friend was working the same program where the girls actually threatened to hurt her just because she sounded white when she talked). Every kid lives what they know, which is why Cosby was really focusing on the parents.
Sometimes kids will keep rejecting you over and over again to test you. They've been so let down by the people who were supposed to be mentoring them, they expect everyone to give up.
With adults...I wouldn't give up right away, but I'm not going to bust my a** over and over again when grownass adults respond to advice with insults.
I saw the interview on Sunday. Some opinions:
Why Meet The Press?? Kind of odd venue. If you want to sell books, why not go on 60 Minutes??? It did Clarence well!!!
Alvin Poussaint has not aged a day. I mean, he is using all that Just for Men gel just like Walter Williams is. But even still, dude looks the same since I saw him over 12 years ago.
How many friends does Bill Cosby have????
Was Tim Russert there at all? Is he afraid of Bill Cosby?
Is this book really going to reach its intended audience? Isn't it reaching the Black middle class only?
Is Michael Eric Dyson really wrong? Why won't Cos debate him?
Questions about the book reaching the intended audience are valid and need to be addressed. The question is, who is the intended audience. The forward to the book should be clear about this.
To me, Baby Steps should be an effective approach, vs. just saying "Stop That!" The "Stop That!" approach was my main point of contention with what Cosby said. At the time, it wasn't followed up with, these are people doing it right and this is how you can help show people who aren't doing it right, to do right.
Right on Drs. Cosby and Poussaint for speaking the truth. Some blacks are still living in the "Twilight Zone" and continue to blame everything on the "white" man. Too many young black men and teenagers have no regards for human life, and they are killing each other like animals on the streets around this nation. As I attended Morgan State University's homecoming on last Saturday, my colleague (Howard graduate) an I discussed the issue why many black young men are not attending college. On most black college campuses, the majority of the students are black females. When will some young black men wake up in the United States and take responsibility for their destinies in this life?
I have 3 adult sons, and all three attended and graduated from college. My wife and I made sure, we were involved in their lives growing up. You find many of these kids in the black community parents are 13 or 14 years older than they are on drugs, alcohol, uneducated, and living in poverty. It's a revolving door in many black families; babies having babies. If you say anything to them, they are ready to pull out a gun or fight you. Many times, their parent will become outraged if you say anything to their child. I find many of these young kids don't have morals, direction, and have lost hope on life. This is very sad!
My 11 year old consistently scores in the 10th percentile countywide in math, reading comprehension and problem solving.
They will be among the leaders of our next generation.
uptownsteve | 10.15.07 - 3:28 pm
I doubt it, the future leaders bust the 97th percentile on nationwide tests.
They take the PSAT in the 7th grade versus the 10th grade for regular students.
The are sought after by TIPs, Talent Identification Program, such as those at John Hopkins and Duke University.
http://www.tip.duke.edu/
`
I am so torn about this. I agree with the message, but I sense such a hostility towards black people in Cosby's tone & attitude. I understand the anger, but anyone can point a finger and yell/blame/accuse.
Despite my misgivings, I have to take the side of the message and support it.
Angie
A lot of people have put qualifiers on why they agree and people seem to have specific reasons for disagreeing. Let's review the reasons for disagreeing:
1. I disagree with the "tone".
2. I disagree because the message sounds "anti-black".
3. I disagree because the message doesn't reach it's intended audience.
4. I disagree because Cosby isn't a saint with his own infidelity issues/out of wedlock children.
5. I disagree because the message focuses too much personal responsibility and not structural obstacles/issues (blaming the victim).
Booker Rising comment brigade: Can we get an official head-count of how many people agree with Cosby (in principal)?
Angie: seems to agree with Cosby
Al from Bay Shore: seems to agree with Cosby
Noah The African: seems to disagree with Cosby
Lee: seems to disagree with Cosby
NSangoma: seems to disagree with Cosby?
Dragon Horse: seems to agree with Cosby
Felix Taylor: seems to agree with Cosby
uptownsteve: seems to disagree with Cosby
Cultural Strategist: seems to agree with Cosby?
Angie: seems to agree with Cosby
Ripama: seems to agree with Cosby
Chris G: seems to agree with Cosby
Cynapse: seems to agree with Cosby
LaJane Galt: seems to agree with Cosby
JNexus: seems to agree with Cosby
Mark M: seems to disagree with Cosby?
DarkStar: seems to agree with Cosby?
Cobb: seems to agree with Cosby
rikyrah: seems to agree with Cosby
shay: seems to agree with Cosby
Kappa Nupe seems to agree with Cosby
If I'm wrong, please state your official position on Cosby's message.
I'll start:
thegrayconservative: agrees with Cosby
"I shouldn't have to remind you a ton of times to civilly argue your point on my blog."
Shay
Haven't you realized yet Steve has no point other than to insult anyone he thinks is a conservative?
He trolls on this site 24/7.
If that's how you want it, fine Shay.
Its your world. If you want more of that to raise your hits call the site
"N----r Rising" and you will attract a blog full of Steves...all day everyday...your hits will go through the roof.
I don't give a damn about "agreeing or disagreeing", I give a damn about doing.
How about mentoring? Opinions? How? When? Who? Effectiveness? Alternatives?
I'm with Cosby!
For too long blacks have been hiding under he guise of racism and oppression. Meanwhile hispanics and immigrants are rising above the status quo...
You have ppl that have come from lower than the gutter, come to the US and made something of themselves. This is a country where education is free and your rewarded for doing well in school. Your parents can get jailed if you dont go to school.
As oppsed to paying for school, bribing head chacellors to renroll your kids, can;t eat 3 square meals, no lihgt or promper running water, just the basic necessities..
At least a begger in the US can get a 99cent burger, or countries thats unheard of...
Blakcs need to get their ac together, just watch he Hispanics they are gaining political power slowly but surly and just laughing at blacks on the way up...
Co-sign with thegrayconservative. In principal, I more than agree with the Cos.
1. I disagree with the "tone".
Sounds like "BIGOTRY OF LOW EXPECTATIONS"
2. I disagree because the message sounds "anti-black".
PURE RACIALISM, which closes one's eyes to reality and seems to go hand-and-hand with RACISM
3. I disagree because the message doesn't reach it's intended audience.
No disagreement there
4. I disagree because Cosby isn't a saint with his own infidelity issues/out of wedlock children.
SMELLS LIKE PETTINESS, only the LAMB OF GOD IS PERFECT, not his sheep
5. I disagree because the message focuses too much personal responsibility and not structural obstacles/issues (blaming the victim).
A SAD REALITY, which doesn't seem to acknowledge that in 2007, it is easier to change yourself before changing your environment, and ultimately more rewarding. Commentators like Debra Dickerson and John McWhorter believe that all that was going to be given was given during the 1960s. I have come to agree with the statement. But who knows, there will be no excuses if come 2008 the Democrats control the executive and legislative branch. I'm sure Mark is keeping his hands cross for his patented Marshall Plan for the hood. Then, we'll TRULY SEE THE BENEFITS 90% OF MY BRETHREN CLAIM TO HAVE FOR VOTING DEMOCRATIC.
Dragon Horse wrote: "I shouldn't have to remind you a ton of times to civilly argue your point on my blog."
Shay, haven't you realized yet Steve has no point other than to insult anyone he thinks is a conservative?
Shay I have to agree with Dragon Horse. This particular individual continues to come up on your site and make personal attacks (name calling) against others that don't agree with him. I find him to be very disrespectful to you and others. This is just my opinion!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with our folk. The way that our young ladies dress and their promiscuity is not a problem. The way that our young men talk about and treat our mothers, daughters, sisters, wives, cousins and nieces is perfectly acceptable. After all, if they act like a bi*%ch, why shouldn't we call them one and treat them like one. If they act up just slap the h*!
Our academic achievement is on par with our intelligence. We do as well as we're capable of doing and it ain't important anyway. Whose to say that a two parent home is better than a single mother with 3 kids before high school? I won't! Black on black crime is overblown too, snitching is the real problem!
Why bring all these babies into the world anyway? We really should have more abortions. Instead of one abortion for every two live births, we should be trying to flip those numbers. White folks don't like us anyway, so may as well not make them mad by having more welfare babies.
Besides, we can't change any of this anyway! Until the man is ready for our condition to change, we are powerless to do any differently, we all no that. The images they show us, the way they make us think about ourselves, its up to them. All that hope nonsense preached by those uppity black folk that have reached middle class just shows how out of touch they really are. We should really be listening to Michael Eric Dyson tell us how to get more stuff from the man, because all that other nonsense ain't gonna work.
LOL, stay in school, graduate, get a job, stay out of jail, get married before having children, y'all know that sh*t don't work! I'm out y'all, gotta run down to the county, pick up my check!
Peace!
"Yada yada yada
yak yak yak
More infantile armchair quarterbacking about the past but doesn't do jack about now.
Tell me about mentoring, or shut up and go on the sidelines...."
DarkStar, I knew I smelled something. The curse I laid on you must have worked. Which of the three "-osis"s are ailing you? Is it the third one?
Next: You never asked me about mentoring you strunz so how would I know to answer, stunad. I'll oblige you out of pity because I'm good like that. I am a school teacher. I mentor all day long, for the last 12 years. 8 of those years were at a middle school in Bed Stuy. But I'll tell you something, mentoring is kinda like beating your head against the wall in a place like that. The kid needs to be completely removed from that environ.
If you really want to change things, you have to accept the idea of changing the culture and use the schools to do it because few people go to church anymore. There needs to be a commitment to making values and ethics a part of instruction. Do this from the earliest age. Make schools operate year round to keep kids off the streets. Make the curriculum Latin centered to encourage literacy. Teach Roman and Greek history as well as literature. Use that to segue into Western Europe with emphasis on the development of democracy in England. Follow up with a U.S. History course that emphasizes civics. Save the black history for grades 11 and 12. But that is just me.
Next: You said this:"More infantile armchair quarterbacking about the past but doesn't do jack about now."
Idiot. I've always felt this way. The turning point was seeing the sorry state of Fisk - how they had to beg for money to keep their doors open. Then Morris Brown followed. Insult was added to injury when you consider that guys like Na'im Akbar (who taught at Morehouse) and John Hope Franklin (who taught at Morgan) were teaching at white universities. Not to disparage the profs who are at the HBCUs but if we focused on our own institutions instead of waiting for crumbs to fall from the white man's table, we wouldn't be in this sorry state.
I'd say more but you are one of those confused negroes who thinks it makes sense to sell out our institutions in order to sweep the floors for Bill Gates. Uhuru Sasa!!
"To me, Baby Steps should be an effective approach, vs. just saying "Stop That!""
DarkStar, please claify this. It sounds stupid. How does one implement a strategy of Baby Steps when they are involved in criminal (and often violent) behavior? On Monday we will use a .38 instead of a 9 mm. and on Tuesday we will begin using knives? Surely you did not mean this.
NSangoma: seems to disagree with Cosby?
thegrayconservative | 10.15.07 - 6:38 pm
Disagree with Cosby; Hell, I'm to the right of Minister Farrakhan on these issues.
Negroe, clean your self up!!
`
Hello Carlo.
- Clemenza to Carlo in the last act of Godfather Book I
Hello Ellison.
"Why Meet The Press?? Kind of odd venue. If you want to sell books, why not go on 60 Minutes??? It did Clarence well!!!"
What's your point? Cos is pushing a book. Clarence Thomas being on Russert does not mean that Cos is Clarence. Farrakhan was on Russert.
"Alvin Poussaint has not aged a day. I mean, he is using all that Just for Men gel just like Walter Williams is. But even still, dude looks the same since I saw him over 12 years ago."
Ellison, this is the same bogus nonsense that Dyson did in his book: Use insult and personal attack to make his point. Jesse Helms employed the same tactic to discredit MLK in an attempt to derail the MLK national holiday.
"How many friends does Bill Cosby have????"
Your point is? Its funny how Cos was okay with people before he spoke out. Just like Robeson and Coltrane were okay with white people until they spoke out. Its the same thing brother man. The Civil Rights establishment has become a machine that has historically quashed any dissension. Its sad how they have become nothing but pimps for the Democratic party.
"Was Tim Russert there at all? Is he afraid of Bill Cosby?"
Have you been drinking tonight?
"Is this book really going to reach its intended audience? Isn't it reaching the Black middle class only?"
I agree with you here. Its like the Million Man March. They should retitle it "A March of brothers who don't need to go there." There is one good thing about the book: It is part of a larger public record that reveals the extent of the ongoing culture wars that are raging in the black community.
"Is Michael Eric Dyson really wrong? Why won't Cos debate him?"
A debate? For what? If you want a public forum, check out all the black folks nodding their heads when Cosby goes on one of his rants. The rants are a bit incoherent, somewhat abrasive, and rarely confined to just a few topics BUT black folks hang on every word. Who needs a phony rap music historian who still thinks Hip Hop is alive? The fact that Dyson still uses the term Hip Hop shows me what a fraud he is. I'll bet any money that he cannot tell me anything about Jimmy Spicer.
No one has addressed the fundamental question of how you get people, in a free society, to volunteer to stop behavior that brings them benefit/pleasure. Essentially the goal here is social or cultural engineering or reengineering of the black collective. As I pointed out before, socialization and enculturation manifest via emulation. In the 21st century the mainstream media has a growing influence on socialization and enculturation. All animals are essentially monkey see monkey do to a large degree of socialization. Hence, if you control what people see and hear you can essentially shape or engineer the culture.
The challenge for African Americans is that our base culture was destroyed and we are now culturally adrift. One of the primary reasons that others races or nationalities can come to America and do relatively well are they has a solid cultural foundation on which to stand. You will find that the more “Americanized” different groups become, the more they fall off. That is because much of their strength comes from their base culture that is not American. This includes, but not limited to, respect and honor of elders, bringing honor to the family (not shaming it), a collective mindset (not individualism and every person for him or herself) and a strong work ethic formed in a country where competition for absolute survival forced it.
African Americans do not have a base or home culture to draw strength from. In fact, our culture is not only made in America, it was designed to promote and maintain a second and third class status in this nation. So again, no one is giving any advice on how to reengineer our culture in a free society in which we do not control the instruments of culture manipulation, which are policy/laws and the media. More, how, in a free society predicated on the virtues of individualism, give up individual benefits for the benefit of the collective interest of black people? I have heard nothing but talk about what needs to be said, but how are those things being said going to make free people give up what pleasures them? It totally defies any understanding of human nature and behavioral psychology.
Black American culture is a reaction to white culture and always has been. It’s the resultant of racism and oppression. Don’t believe that? Ask any African how African black American culture is and they will laugh at the idea of. We started off as Africans culturally and that was purposely taken away from us leaving us to be socialized and uncultured from white oppression. Now we need a way to culturally anchor ourselves but we lack control of the engineering tools to do this. I don’t hear any of you talking from the perspective of an understanding of human nature and enculturation. Everyone is talking from the perspective of conservatism vs. liberalism and ignoring human naturism.
Al, go to the Baby Steps link I provided and follow the next link. It's there. In fact, there are conservative commentators who have praised the effort.
Look at this:
Baby Steps is designed to teach mostly low-income parents of pre-schoolers how to prepare their children for success in school and in life-- even if the parents themselves never experienced much success in school. Target clients are parents of children from birth to age 5. The program provides resources, training, books and instruction, including home visits during which appropriate intellectual and language development skills are modeled. Baby Steps does not work directly with children but endeavors to reach the children by engaging their parents through workshops, talk sessions, home visits and training seminars run by specialists in early-childhood education.
On your comments about mentoring, strange you write this now, when you previously wrote you don't take the time because it's not worth the effort, so all you do is teach.
You are dismissed.
Anyone who has taken the time to read about Baby Steps, what is your opinion of it?
At 5:20 PM I provided the link. Only 1 hit was registered at that link by 8:15 PM and that was me seeing if I provided the correct link.
Al's comment about Baby Steps, the quote I provided about Baby Steps, and the hit stat, stands on their own.
Here is a link of a list of mentoring groups I was able to find. If anyone knows of any more, drop me a link. The email address is available on the page.
If you want to know about education efforts, you can go here.
Any comments?
Whoops, on education, try this link.
I didn't go to the link, but I was involved in a program like that when my daughter was born. It was offered to all the mothers and I went(they offered 50$ for the first visit). They did developmental tests on her at 3mnths, 6mths, 1 yr. They also gave nutritional advice and constructive play tips. It was interesting once I got involved because at the time I was in college and very ambitious about learning what was best for my baby. However, I came from a good family with plenty of role models, so I was one of the few mothers who stuck with it just out of a sense of wanting to do right by my child, and funny,when I said after 6 months that I was going to drop it, my mother told me "when you sign up for something and say you'll be there, then you be there". Same thing she said about a job. So, I think that if it was good for me and I didn't need it, it is an excellent tool for those that do need it. They still send my daughter a card every year and she just turned 16.
Anyone who has taken the time to read about Baby Steps, what is your opinion of it?
DarkStar | Homepage | 10.15.07 - 8:19 pm
A photograph of a black woman involved with a child.
No picture of a black male involved with a child.
Is this site for baby mama type Negroes only?
If so, can baby mamas afford the MacBookPro featured in the photo of the black female with the black child?
Where he daddy at?
http://www.takebabysteps.com/
`
How did anyone determine that Cosby is a liberal?
Because he's friends with Jesse Jackson?
As Dyson pointed out in his book, unlike a lot of prominent black celebrities during the 60s, Cosby was pretty silent during the Civil Rights movement.
Steve,
Bill Cosby, before there was an Oprah Winfrey, was THE Philathropist in the Black Community.
Bill Cosby, as they say, Put his money where his mouth was, investing in Black people from ' back in the day' until now.
The story of Black Arts around the country cannot be told without having a Bill Cosby story here and there, all over this country.
And, we're not even going to get into the untold MILLIONS upon MILLIONS that he's given to help those get a 'hand up' through education.
The man isn't perfect; nobody is.
But, very few of any generation has walked the walk - WITH THEIR OWN MONEY the way that Cosby has with our community.
For that alone, he can say whatever he wants from where I sit.
Cosby is right. I agree.
I don’t hear any of you talking from the perspective of an understanding of human nature and enculturation. Everyone is talking from the perspective of conservatism vs. liberalism and ignoring human naturism.
Noah
Human naturism?
There is another argument to be made about criticism and human nature. People call what Cosby does "airing black folk's dirty laundry" because it comes in the form of harsh criticism. The "tone" upsets them, and the harsh criticism has the effect of wounding people's self-confidence. If someone is a contestant on The Biggest Loser, you don't motivate them by calling them a fat ass every two minutes - it destroys what little confidence they had, but that doesn't mean they're not fat. Cosby looked at the situation and determined that the big person needed to be called a fat ass to get him to move - that's tough love coming from an OLD person! Cosby wants black body builders but body builders don't "tone up" overnight. Sure, harsh criticism can hurt - but the body's muscles don't get toned and grow bigger by remaining sedentary; and so you tear them with exercise knowing that muscles tear in order to re-grow, bigger. No pain, no gain. Criticism hurts, but Strength comes from Wounding. That's human naturism. It doesn't matter in what degree the wounding takes place. Some people need to go at different paces while others drop tens of pounds at a time. Some prefer to tone up in baby steps, but a personal trainer pushes you to push yourself big time, every time. Cosby is that loud, mean, frustrated personal trainer calling people fat, but people get mad at him for not acknowledging the "structural obstacles" to not being fat. They want Cosby to blame McDonald's and Burger King but he doesn't care about that - all he sees is a fat person about to die from a heart attack - to hell with how they got that way, Cosby looks at them and says "you need to not be obese, right now." Cosby has already donated some of his own money to helping the person not be obese and now he can only scream, "Shape Up!" - hence the title: "Come on People."
People respond differently to criticism. The Biggest Loser contestant who gets called a fat ass could start crying, or the comment could enrage them to the point where it end ups motivating them. Some people need baby steps, some people need the angry personal trainer.
Personal trainers shout at people who have agreed a shout is what is needed.
Ray Ray on the corner doing his dirt doesn't give a damn about Cosby. Junebug on the stoops knowing there is a better way than how he's living MAY give a damn about Cosby but is in need of someone in their life to touch them PERSONALLY.
What about mentoring? Any ideas? Or is there a better method? If so, what is it?
Gray conservative,
The target groups of Cosby’s harsh criticism, poor blacks, don’t really care what the heck Cosby has to say. The group most upset with what Cosby has to say tends to be middle class liberal blacks, a group that is not the intended target of “tough love”. So I am at a loss to figure out why you figure that shocking middle class blacks is going to motivate poor blacks. Poor blacks face so many challenges that they are very thick skinned. You know ridicule and signifying is rampant in poor black communities. What Bill Cosby is saying is not going to shock anybody into doing anything because Bill Cosby holds no rank to poor blacks. They don’t look up to him and they don’t see him as being relevant to where they are coming from. In order to practice tough love you have to have the ability to deny someone something. Bill Cosby is not giving anything to poor blacks and hence he cannot take anything away from poor blacks to practice tough love. In short, Cosby has no power or influence one way or the other over poor blacks.
thegrayconservative
With all due respect, if tone and language were not important on how to address people many posters on this site would not be complaining about uptownsteve and those very things.
Everyone wants to be treated with respect. Life is not a reality show. A personal trainer is only effective if they spend the time TRAINING THE PERSON and possibly using those tactics you mentioned while expressing a genuine interest for that person to succeed. Anything else only makes the person being denigrated want to open up a can of whoop @ss on said loud mouth. And in the streets that's usually with hot lead (aka bullets).
Ray Ray on the corner doing his dirt doesn't give a damn about Cosby. Junebug on the stoops knowing there is a better way than how he's living MAY give a damn about Cosby but is in need of someone in their life to touch them PERSONALLY.
DarkStar:
Do Ray Ray and Junebug have kids?
Okay, let's say that Ray Ray and Junebug are fat. I'm talking like, 600lbs wash yourself with a rag on a stick fat. You know they're fat, I know they're fat. You (DarkStar) can see that they are fat because you agree that they need mentoring - you want to know if personal mentoring would work for these two fat people - or if not mentoring, some sort of other idea. Ray Ray and Junebug know that they are fat because they feel bad about themselves when people stare at them and call them fat. But the Ray Ray on the street corner and the Jubebug on the stoop that you describe can see their "fatness" for what it is and simply don't care about it. It does not occur to them to see a personal trainer about their condition because it's much easier to keep living as they currently are, safe inside that comfort zone. Since we know that there are people like Ray Ray and Junebug in the world, the best we can do is to target messages at all obese people for them to get the help they need. Or call for volunteers to go out and help people like Ray Ray and Junebug and volunteer at the Save People Like Ray Ray and Junebug Foundation. The point is, you have to help me, help you. This implies that you know you need help. Illiterate people feel that inner shame knowing that they can't function to their fullest potential. Obese people feel that inner shame when they people stare at them. Fathers who go to jail feel that inner shame for not being able to take care of their family while in jail. But if you're sitting on that corner or stoop while not feeling any shame whatsoever, knowing all the while that there is a better way, how can you even acknowledge that you need help without some sort of shock from someone with an objective viewpoint? Cosby is here for that shock.
Individual mentoring has it's role - but what about large-scale, long-term cultural competencies? You can't individually mentor all the Ray Rays and Junebugs. Would you send a child into the world not knowing how to wipe it's own ass? Then why would you send it into the world not knowing how to read? That is the level of frustration that Cosby feels, I think. Once again, this is an OLD person. His tone obviously reflects the sense of urgency he feels, or did you guys miss the part where he explains that?:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21293963/page/3/
"MR. RUSSERT: Your callouts around the country—I watched the video of them. I also watched Bill Cosby when you went to Jesse Jackson’s group, Rainbow Push Coalition, and said some things in a very blunt way, maybe even for shock value. I want to watch that and come back and ask you what kind of reaction you got.
DR. POUSSAINT: Good.
RUSSERT: Let’s watch.
(Videotape, July 1, 2004)
MR. COSBY: Hey, man, let me tell you something. Your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day. It’s cursing and it’s calling each other niggers as they walk up and down the street. They think they’re hip. They can’t read; they can’t write. Fifty percent of them. They, they, they take it into the candy store. They, they put it—they put themselves on the train and on the buses, and they don’t even care what color or what age somebody else is. It’s about them and their cursing and grabbing each other and laughing and giggling and going nowhere. And the book bags are very, very thin because there’s no books in them.
(End videotape)
MR. RUSSERT: The audience seemed to be responsive.
MR. COSBY: Yes, because the people know exactly what I’m saying. See, a great deal of, of the negative is about people not wanting so much attention in that area, but it has to come out. If it is what it is and that is a horrible, horrible problem, then we must direct ourselves to it. I keep thinking about a parent who’s called in to, to the principle’s office because the child is misbehaving, and so many teachers have, have said, “And the parent comes in yelling at us that their child would never do that and why are they called, and all of a sudden it’s, it’s no longer about ‘We’re, we’re here to talk about making corrective behavioral changes in your child,’ but about the parent who is using all kinds of language and threatening people.” It’s something that goes into the person.
Now, just let me, let me say this. When I say it the way I say it, I felt and I still feel that it has been said so softly, so intelligently, so carefully that people are used to it and they’re not responding. There’s inertia and there’s entropy. Now, when I was in the service, the first great shock I had was when this man with a cigarette hanging, smoke going up into one eye, with his Navy hat on in charge of us, and I had done something—I don’t even remember what it was. It was sort of innocent, but I was only two days in the Navy. And this man up this face to mine—it was a white man—they never curse. He never called me the N-word, but they had words they would call you like a one-eyed maggot. You know, and it hurt. You said, “What?” But what he said was, “I’m not your mother.” And, man, I wanted to knock him out, but I knew that I didn’t want to go to the brig. And, and what’s happening here is when I used that, that, that language and I use it that way, I’m trying to wake people up, that inertia, I’m trying to move them from that entropy because we’re, we’re in the stage now we can’t take much more with all—we need our men to be fathers. The book you wrote, the book you have about your father, kids grow up with, not—I mean, they know somebody was the other half, but they don’t know who. And by the time, if they ever met the person, they, they would have to go way, way back and not realize why—and within themselves, they, too want to Domestic violence—what are the numbers on the domestic violence?"
DarkStar, isn't a sign of entropy is Ray Ray and Junebug know a better way, but just don't give a damn?
[quote]What I find lacking here is an establishing of a baseline for what is NORMAL. Can we agree that the black condition in America has not been NORMAL? How do I conclude that? How can I conclude that the black experience was not NORMAL without juxtaposing it with the experience of most others? Should we therefore expect a NORMAL resultant from abnormal conditions or stimuli? The black condition cannot be analyzed in vacuum[/quote]
Noah The Iowan:
A 20 year old TODAY was born in 1987. This kid is old enough to be your son.
Could you tell me HOW, with YOU being conscious of what is NORMAL and ABNORMAL... why YOU and the mother of this child who are raising this young Black male ARE NOT the key forces presenting the NORMALITY that you speak of that this child is exposed to as he experiences the world?
Worse Noah, as we look at the Black community over all could you tell us what force in the future do you predict will reset the NORMALCY that SLAVERY and JIM CROW has taken away? As we go through a continuing set of generations of Black people who are not SLAVES or JIM CROW VICTIMS how is it that you will continue to focus on lack of NORMALCY as the reason why too many Black people are in a state of being that is less than their potential.
You see Noah - the difference between you and I is that YOU see this gap between where we are right now and the optimum where we should be as a function of OUR PAST. As new generations come to be you are willing to excuse this void as a factor of that which men who are now dead have done.
I on the other hand see this gap being closed by some DIRECTED ACTIONS executed by Black people ourselves. The past does not have to have the prevailing impact on a child born today IF his parents and his community insure that they are isolated from this past.
At the end of the day Noah - you want an OUTSIDE force to heal you. If they see your healed state as a threat to their power then it is insane to believe that they will ever give you all you need to reach your full potential.
I'd always associated the word entropy with physics, thermodymanics to be specific.
Well, it seems it is also a sociological term:
a doctrine of inevitable social decline and degeneration
Regardless, the people Dr Cosby is talking about have no idea what the word entropy means.
http://dictionary.reference.com/.../browse/
entropy
`
CS,
Life is competition –a relay race- if you will. Each generation of life represents a leg in the relay race of life. Each generation inherits as its starting point, the position of the previous generation when handed the baton of life (birth).
Blacks, the collective (what is true of the collective may not necessarily be true for every individual in the collective) have a disadvantage accrued from centuries of unfairness. Slavery and Jim Crow allowed the white collective progress far ahead of blacks, creating an abnormal situation due to “normality” being established by the “majority” which has been whites.
In other words, the abnormality of the black collective is inherited disadvantage. Can you find exceptions to the rule? Yep…but the general rule, for all intelligent people, is not negated or invalidated by exceptions to it. Are you is the set of people with intelligence?
All this bull about "cultural competencies" is just an excuse to stand back, yell, and feel good about doing something when you are really doing nothing.
DS is the only one who ever makes sense on these threads. The rest of y'all are just gassing, more interested in a fight than in solutions.
All this bull about "cultural competencies" is just an excuse to stand back, yell, and feel good about doing something when you are really doing nothing.
DS is the only one who ever makes sense on these threads. The rest of y'all are just gassing, more interested in a fight than in solutions.
tvd
What a vapid statement.
You have absolutely no idea what the individual commenters here do to help or the causes they donate money to.
Your comments are rendered obsolete the moment I put my check in the mail to support literacy.
Everyone knew damn well that this thread was going to be a fight in large part - the very first post by Al from Bay Shore set the tone nicely and shay said, "Oh, let the haterade fest begin!" Noah came in and said, "Let me detonate my weapon of Mass Destruction in this war/debate." So please stop trying to act like you're disappointed that people are arguing - you posted your mini-rant because you wanted to get your digs in too, get off your high horse. You act like you've never seen a fight on Booker Rising before.
tvd: fighting in a comment thread? THIS IS MADNESS!!!
everyone else: Of course we're here to fight: THIS IS BOOKER RISING!
*kicks tvd into a large, deep pit.
But the Ray Ray on the street corner and the Jubebug on the stoop that you describe can see their "fatness" for what it is and simply don't care about it.
Ray Ray doesn't care. Lock him up and remove him. Junebug, if given good guidance (mentoring), can turn it around. Screaming at him won't do it.
Individual mentoring has it's role - but what about large-scale, long-term cultural competencies?
You get there individually. Cosby screaming ain't gonna cut it.
A person gets saved. However, to stay saved, the person needs to be around mature Christians to show them the way. In other words, MENTOR. Why this is recognized and never disputed, but why some people discard the idea that people need to be shown the proper way to behave, when they just don't know and maybe don't care, yet, is beyond me.
You can't individually mentor all the Ray Rays and Junebugs.
Shut up. Sit down. And get out of the way of people concerned.
Anyone want to talk about mentoring?
"You act like you've never seen a fight on Booker Rising before."
It's the same fight every time it comes up.
Wake me when it's over.
...or if there's a thread on interracial marriage or Clarence Thomas
Mentoring is on point. Again, socialization takes place via emulation. Mentoring provides a youth with, theoretically, a positive image to emulate which many environments lack.
To really reach youth, especially the black male, they have to respect you or look up to you. The people who can really influence these kids are our high profile athletes, but they rarely step up to the plate by saying what needs to be said or behaving in ways worthy of emulation outside of athletics.
This is the challenge of a free society predicated upon individualism. Obviously people in a free society do what they feel is in their best interest. So how do you persuade them to forgo their self interest to do something that is to the benefit and interest of others? How do you persuade people to give up their time and money to help other people when they get more pleasure from being selfish than from helping others? Virulent racism and discrimination would not have reduced so greatly without regulation in the form of laws and policies, because racism benefited whites. People don’t generally voluntarily give up behavior that benefits them.
This is why I say that that the problems of the black community are not going to change from the inside out, but rather, from the outside in. That does not mean that we cannot make progress working from the inside out, but that it will fall short of what we need.
Shut up. Sit down. And get out of the way of people concerned.
Anyone want to talk about mentoring?
DarkStar
Shut up? Are we little kids now? "No. You shut up, DarkStar!" "No you shut up!" What is with this playground-level debate? No one is standing in the way of people concerned.
Cosby is concerned, but people are still trying to shout him down. Dyson decided to write an entire "counter-book" to his message.
You keep screaming about how you want to hear about mentoring when mentoring is only one strategy in what has always been a multi-pronged attack on failure: Mentoring, youth and adult literacy programs, family planning assistance, parenting classes, after-school programs, free clinics, free STD testing, drug rehab clinics, public service announcements, business seminars, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, battered womens centers, state scholarships, job training programs, dating services, marriage counseling, financial management courses, mental health services, personal counseling, unemployment offices, debt help, credit repair services, free legal advice, numerous videos and tutorials on every subject, housing assistance, substance abuse groups, anger management groups, eating disorders groups, free nutrition advice, computer training, social skills training, etiquette classes, call centers, neighborhood watch programs, MADD, SOSAD, DARE, and on and on and on.
Help is out there for people and has been for a long long time. If you want to help, pick one of the above and volunteer. Don't have time to volunteer because you have kids or work for a living? Cut someone a check every month - that's what I do.
All of this is stuff is out there and available to people, and most of it is free. Whose fault is it that people don't know about any of these? You have an entire category on your site devoted to "Mr. Cosby". You go on and on asking: How do we do this Mr. Cosby? How do we do that Mr Cosby? I think a better question is: How do you get people to take advantage of the services that are readily available to them and have been for years?
DarkStar, if people know the good, will they do the good?
on and on and on.
I previously asked for other methods and no one wrote a damned thing, until now.
How do you get people to take advantage of the services that are readily available to them and have been for years?
Take it to them and if they use it good, if not, keep trying.
DarkStar, if people know the good, will they do the good?
Most will but it requires proper socialization to do the good.
If people don't think those who are not doing well won't or can't change, then why the fuss?
Angie,
If you had written "...I was only saying that his tone gets in the way of the words sometimes."... in the first place instead of, ...I sense such a hostility towards black people in Cosby's tone & attitude." I might have overlooked your comment.
The problem I had with the comment is the "hostility towards black people".
Anyone who thinks Bill Cosby and Allan Toussaint are hostile to Black people, needs some serious help.
We need people who will not beat around the bush, that is the only way to solve the huge problems facing us.
Angie,
It's been almost 24 hours since my first post on this topic. Now there are well over 200 comments so I haven't read them all. It does seem that there were other comments written about your use of the word "hostility". I'd hate to belabor the point, but is there anything specific you can cite as "hostile"?
Yaking solves nothing.
I KNEW IT.
I KNEW IT!
I KNEW IT!!
Michael Eric Dyson was on NPR's "Tell Me More" to talk about Bill Cosby who is clearly his nemesis.
After seeing "Meet The Press" I told several people that this coming week would show the real character of MEDs. (I call him MEDs because he needs some drugs to calm him down).
If MEDs was interested in the essential point that Cosby is raising then he would work to focus upon what they agree upon in common.
If MEDs has been interested in being the HNIC then he would focus on ATTACKING COSBY.
Which of these two do you figure he did this morning?
It was clear that his goal was to marginalize the Coz and tell us that he needs to stick with what he knows best because clearly it is not about the problems with poor people.
MEDs is a DEFENDER OF THE STATUS QUO within the Ghetto.
How do you get people to take advantage of the services that are readily available to them and have been for years?
Take it to them and if they use it good, if not, keep trying.
Take it to them? How about if they opened a phone book to get the numbers to these publicly listed services?
We constantly push quit smoking services but people keep smoking. Nicotine gum, quit smoking support groups, laser therapy, hypnosis, surgeon general's warnings, smoking bans, smokefree.gov, Truth commercials, etc. And people keep right on smoking. That doesn't mean we stop pushing the quit smoking services to people, but it still requires some form of initiative on the smoker's part.
You keep saying that telling people "Stop doing that!" doesn't work, but some people need more than just the message of "stop smoking" - some people need to see the gross pictures of that blackened lung before they take action to save themselves; they need that shock. Cosby is trying to show people pictures of the blackened lung, but people just cover their eyes and complain that he's blaming the victim because he isn't going after the cigarette companies. Cosby is just one, albeit highly-visible prong of a multi-pronged attack on failure - so why does he catch flack like he's the damn devil? People need to stop hating for no good reason. Cosby's efforts are worthy of respect. The Nation of Islam's efforts are worthy of respect. Dyson's efforts are worthy of respect. The Black Panthers efforts are worthy of respect. The Church's outreach efforts are worthy of respect. People who mentor or volunteer are deserving of respect. People who simply donate money to a cause are deserving of respect. Everyone contributes in their own way, but somehow what Cosby does is "harsh" and "out of touch"? B____t.
DarkStar, if people know the good, will they do the good?
Most will but it requires proper socialization to do the good.
Many "properly socialized" people still smoke cigarettes. They know the good, but they don't give a damn about the harmful effects of smoking because it makes them feel "good" or "relaxed" or whatever. People routinely do the exact opposite of what they know is the objectively good thing to do because to do otherwise would take them out of their comfort zone and break their established habits.
No cussin' on the blog
Edited By Siteowner
Cobb stated,[back about 100 comments ago]... The corollary is that black politics never learned how to take criticism.
I don't know to what degree this is true, but historically Black politics also suffered form the despair and apathy of the Black population in general.
At best political power requires organization, commitment, time and money. I don't want to go into a history lesson now, but in the not too distant past there were campaigns to urge Blacks to register to vote; Other campaigns urging Blacks to actually go out AND vote.
So, the corrolary "black politics never learned how to take criticism", should be viewed from this historical perpsective: Blacks are fairly new to the political process.
Take it to them? How about if they opened a phone book to get the numbers to these publicly listed services?
I'll say it again, Christians take their religion to the people who need it. They don't sit back and wait, they evangelize.
What's the difference?
Everyone contributes in their own way, but somehow what Cosby does is "harsh" and "out of touch"? B____.
Show me where I wrote that.
No cussin' on the blog
Edited By Siteowner
[quote]Mentoring is on point. Again, socialization takes place via emulation. Mentoring provides a youth with, theoretically, a positive image to emulate which many environments lack.
[/quote]
Interesting.
Noah - It is common that people draw upon our RACIAL RESPONSIBILITY to reach out and help another brother. This is typically assumed for the MIDDLE CLASS Black toward the "poor".
I need to ask you and others - What RACIAL RESPONSIBILITY do you assign to the "poor Black"? He is "LESS THAN" than you our I?
As he produces another child that will need MENTORING in order to prevent this child from being negatively impacted by his environment......do you assign any RESPONSIBILITY upon the "poor Black parent" to be drawn upon their RACIAL RESPONSIBILITY to deny themselves of any particular pleasures as they instead devote more time or materials toward their own children?
While the message to the "Black who has made it" is CLEARLY ARTICULATED.....it is clear that there is no comprehensive message that has been crafted to the "Black Victim" EXCEPT "it is NOT YOUR FAULT" that you are in the condition that you are in.
The Poor Black is then used as a POSTER CHILD to PROVE the deleterious impact of this society/economy/culture.
At what point do you see that at least SOME of his condition is due to the perpetual indoctrination from WITHIN and the failure to promote a system WITHIN that could ever produce a different outcome?
People accept the idea that a person who is an alcoholic, needs to be helped by others to get them to recognize they have a problem.
People accept the idea that a person who is a drug user, needs to be helped by others to get them to recognize they have a problem.
Not only are the people confronted, but they are told how to turn things around and where to go.
But for those Blacks who are not doing well, they have to learn they are doing wrong on their own, without any guidance?
I had to check in to where yall were!
DarkStar, we discussed mentoring earlier. I agree w/ the concept in certain circumstances - PARTICULARLY in regards to extended family. Graycon has made some salient points regarding the efficacy and time consumption of mentoring.
On that note,
I am an atheist. I believe "god" exists insofar that human beings keep remaking him/her/them every now and again.
I believe the American brand European-based Western Judeo-Christian that most blacks practice is a form of mental slavery. I believe that it is a distraction, a hindrance to success, a crutch, a smokescreen for bad behavior and an excuse for inactivity. I also realize what religion means to black folk - including my extended fam. My grandfather was an AME Zion minister.
A few weeks ago, a temp left our Division. I asked her is she had another job lined up. Her response, "No, I'll just have to see what the Lord wnats for me."
My point is if -when - I come accross a mentee that expresses something to the effect of "it's God's will"; suppose I tell her, your God is a vicious cruel God that you'd be better off ditching if you want to be successful.
She's seen hard things, she can take the truth.
Am I still capable of being a mentor? Or does my lack of faith in the unssen excuse me from mentoring duties?
This is the challenge of a free society predicated upon individualism. Obviously people in a free society do what they feel is in their best interest. So how do you persuade them to forgo their self interest to do something that is to the benefit and interest of others?
Noah,
I would convince people that is in their best interest and the interest of the free society to raise their damn children.
If they don't act in their own interests, society will act in its interest by locking them up. I will act in my self-interest by purchasing a weapon.
Graycon has made some salient points regarding the efficacy and time consumption of mentoring.
Mentoring can be talking to the kids on your block. Taking your kid's friends with you when you take your friend somewhere. Talking to a friend and encouraging them to do better and telling them how to do better. It can be you being part of a more formal mentoring program.
Am I still capable of being a mentor?
Yes.
C'mon Darkstar.
You know conservatives aren't concerned about mentoring or the uplift of the underclass.
With them it's all empty sloganeering about "bootstraps" and "personal responsibility".
I'll say it again, Christians take their religion to the people who need it. They don't sit back and wait, they evangelize.
What's the difference?
DarkStar
There is no difference. The people who go out and personally evangelize to crack heads about rehabilitation on a daily or weekly basis are doing their job. The fact that you slammed your door in the face of a Jehovah's Witness doesn't stop them from knocking on your door on a Saturday morning six months later. The fact of the matter is that there are people out there for whom no amount of persistent proselytizing will do any good in swaying them to change their ridiculous habits - those people need a firm slap in the face. So if you're a proponent of persistent personal proselytizing, then fine, but that doesn't mean that public service announcements and hard-nosed messages broadcast via television are any less effective in reaching a large swath of people.
Everyone contributes in their own way, but somehow what Cosby does is "harsh" and "out of touch"? B_____t.
Show me where I wrote that.
Of course you didn't write those exact words, but you expressed what essentially amounted to the same thing when you mentioned that you disagreed with his approach and decided to put an emphasis on Baby Steps. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what your opinion of Cosby's message is - the fact that you have an entire category dedicated to him on your blog speaks volumes.
People accept the idea that a person who is an alcoholic, needs to be helped by others to get them to recognize they have a problem.
People accept the idea that a person who is a drug user, needs to be helped by others to get them to recognize they have a problem.
Not only are the people confronted, but they are told how to turn things around and where to go.
But for those Blacks who are not doing well, they have to learn they are doing wrong on their own, without any guidance?
DarkStar
A person who doesn't know how to read doesn't need someone to come along and tell them that they are doing wrong. They know that are doing wrong when they pass a billboard and can't read what it says. They know they are doing wrong when they can't read their kid's homework. People who are "doing wrong" almost always feel that inner shame within themselves - they just don't do anything about it. Ask a crack head or an illiterate person if they feel "good" about themselves. Those blacks who are not doing well are fully capable of doing a realistic self-assessment of themselves in order to determine whether or not they are currently satisfied with their own lives. "Am I doing well? Could I be doing better? What are others doing that I am not doing? Is help available? Where is the phone book?" If I'm a crack head, do I really need someone to come along and tell me that I'm doing wrong? Of course not. I know damn well that I'm doing wrong every time I get high on crack. Parents know good and damn well that they are doing wrong when their kid drops out in 4th grade or fails to graduate high school. Half of the work is proselytizing, the other half is self-initiative.
If racial responsibility requires me--as a middle class person--to look after and reach back to help the most vulnerable and disadvantaged of my race, then that same racial responsibility should require those disadvantaged individuals to remember the disadvantages that we had to overcome in the first place and to not be complacent in their education and vocational pursuits. If middle class black folks have a responsibility to teach the children of illiterate black parents how to read, then those illiterate parents should realize that it is an insult to the people who had to overcome years and years of state-sanctioned illiteracy when they decide to remain illiterate. What do you mean you don't know how to read? Don't you know that, by law, our people weren't allowed to study reading or writing? You can't afford to be illiterate anymore than I can afford to turn my back on you. If the black middle class has lost its mind, then the black underclass has forgotten its history
No cussin' on the blog
Edited By Siteowner
Of course you didn't write those exact words, but you expressed what essentially amounted to the same thing when you mentioned that you disagreed with his approach and decided to put an emphasis on Baby Steps.
No I didn't, but thanks for mind reading. Baby Steps was an example of teaching people how to do better. I didn't just tell my daughter, "Don't do drugs" or "don't have sex," I taught her how to say no, why no is better, etc. The billboards across Baltimore City that says, "Marriage works!" doesn't say why or how it works or what "works" means. In fact, my daughter mentioned that to me.
They know they are doing wrong when they can't read their kid's homework.
And many times, people who can't read are talked into getting help from others. Sometimes they do it on their own, sometimes they don't. I know about that one.
the fact that you have an entire category dedicated to him on your blog speaks volumes.
Yep, it sure does, in fact, I state it: Shouting "Stop It!" isn't enough.
"My way" works far more than shouting, "Stop IT!" and every successful model that I can think of, has more than "Stop IT!" as a component. Every. One.
Half of the work is proselytizing, the other half is self-initiative.
Actually, 70% if proselytizing, the other 30% is self-initiative, to start. Then it starts to slide more and more towards self.
Kids don't seek mentors, mentors seek them out. Ice T and Jim Brown have done good work getting people out of gangs. They go to the bangers, not the other way around.
[quote]But for those Blacks who are not doing well, they have to learn they are doing wrong on their own, without any guidance?[/quote]
My friend DarkStar the "Schyuleristic Conservative":
You SPEAK NOTHING of the question of if they will ACCEPT this HELP/GUIDANCE as it is being offered.
Just as Harriett Tubman said that she could have freed more enslaved Blacks had THEY realized that they were slaves........it is also true today. Some of the people who "need help" as you say are not willing to give up what they are beholden to.
Have you heard my favorite audio report before?
Coco's Story: Movin' Out the Bricks
In Chicago's Projects, Moving Out Isn't Always Easy
http://www.npr.org/templates/
sto...storyId=1322360
This is a perfect example of how a person with an opportunity in front of them chooses NOT to leave their ghetto friends with ghetto ways behind and adapt to the new community with new demands.
Ultimately she was a CONSUMER! She liked the new community that she had moved into but was UNWILLING to jump in the current and keep pace with what was attractive to her about the new scene.
When you and others find your VOICE regarding what to tell those who YOU see as being behind and are able to tell them what THEY NEED TO DO....I think we will make real forward progress.
S/N: 0.005%
No I didn't, but thanks for mind reading. Baby Steps was an example of teaching people how to do better. I didn't just tell my daughter, "Don't do drugs" or "don't have sex," I taught her how to say no, why no is better, etc. The billboards across Baltimore City that says, "Marriage works!" doesn't say why or how it works or what "works" means. In fact, my daughter mentioned that to me.
DarkStar
Since when did the efficacy of the message have anything to do with how and why the message gets put out there? The message is good for it's own sake. Off the top of my head I can think of a ton of slogan-based self-improvement ad campaigns that don't bother going into excruciating detail to get their message across because the value of the message is so stupidly obvious to anyone who sees it:
"Get Active - Verb, it's what you do."
"Read to your kids early and often."
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste."
"This is your brain on drugs."
"Live above the influence."
"Friends don't let friends drive drunk."
"Click it or Ticket."
"Take a bite out of crime."
"Only you can help prevent forest fires."
Every black kid I knew watched NBA Inside Stuff religiously on Saturday and they would always have the same message on every show: "Reading is fundamental."
There used to be a commercial that came on when I was a kid, it was a rap about books. I still remember some of the lyrics without having to google them:
"Books! Check 'em out!
Books! Check 'em out!
Read about stars and cars, playin' electric guitars,
and cops who work hard patrollin' the boulavard.
Heavy weight champs and their craziest bouts!
Books! Check 'em out!
Books! Check 'em out!
At your library!"
So should people stop doing these types of slogan-based ad campaigns DarkStar?
The slogans, by themselves, do nothing.
A later study on the "This is your brain on drugs" suggested the effort didn't work, so they made the commercials more hard edge. Maryland or Maryland AAA did a study that showed the "Click it or ticket" campaign wasn't effective. What was more effective was the tickets issued.
"Get Active - Verb, it's what you do."
America is getting fatter. Did that slogan work?
"Read to your kids early and often."
Unfortunately, for Blacks, that has not happened yet.
"Friends don't let friends drive drunk."
Enforcement has done more to drive down drunk driving than anything else.
Parents know that "Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't work. If they don't know it now, they learn it later when it hits them in the face.
[quote]If they don't know it now, they learn it later when it hits them in the face.[/quote]
The question is are YOU willing to allow them to be "hit in the face" if they did everything that was necessary to place their faces in the said position to get hit?
Don't you see that some people know that you will be there to give them that 10th chance?
Is "taking responsibility" an innate or learned behavior?
If it is learned, how is it learned? Is it actively taught or passively taught or both?
If parents aren't doing what is required, how can the child learn it?
[quote]Gravatar Is "taking responsibility" an innate or learned behavior?[/quote]
"Taking Responsibility" is the QUATERNARY (thank you Google )step after the primary step of realizing that you are not happy with the way things are now, the SECONDARY step of realizing that WHAT EVER YOU HAVE BEEN DOING AIN'T BEEN WORKING and then the tertiary step of defining what your goals are and the steps that you need to take to actually get there and then "TAKING RESPONSIBILITY" on what YOU ARE GOING TO DO to get there, forsaking all that THREATENS your progress forward.
Again - while some of it MUST BE TAUGHT this speaks NOTHING regarding the ACCEPTANCE of this teaching by the VICTIM.
You are able to attack me for my "S/N" ratio.........where is your attacks upon the VICTIM for his actions that THREATEN his progress? I will be fine in my life despite my supposed S/N ratio. You need to be focusing on your message to HIM. He is at risk.
Wow!! This is intense!! While I do believe that we should reach out and help as many of our folk as possible, when and how do you get to the point that you must cut your losses? When does the chewing gum in the meeting Nay Nay become more of a liabiblity instead of an asset? When do we get tired of having our good will and ability to look forward into the future spat upon? Yes, there are some that simply hunger for guidance. Many don't know how to appropriately dress. Many don't possess the faintest idea of how to conduct themselves in a business. the truth is all any of us can do is to HELP THOSE THAT WANT TO BE HELPED. Help that young brotha to understand that Pookie, Junior, and the rest of the posse will eventually bring him nothing but trouble and woes, Help that brotha to understand that there's a time and a place for wearing his earrings and there's a time and a place where wearing an earring is inappropriate.
I hate to say this but eventually we somewhere along the line are going to have no other choice but to cut our loses and move on. We can only encourage, lecture, talk, preach sermonize for so long. I truly believe that the longer we deal with folk that don't want to listen, we miss that boy or girl, young man or women who would take our sage advice to heart and begin to implement the changes for a better life and future.
I never said everyone could be helped, but that doesn't mean we don't try to help people.
Is "taking responsibility" an innate or learned behavior?
DarkStar
This depends on what you mean when you say "personal responsibility". Who do we have in mind when we are speaking about those who are said to be capable of being personally responsible for themselves? I think we mean all non-physically or mentally disabled, sane, able-bodied individuals - whose who can administer the lesson(s) to be learned.
If it is learned, how is it learned? Is it actively taught or passively taught or both?
If parents aren't doing what is required, how can the child learn it?
DarkStar
It's Learned - but the relevance of your questions depends on what the transferable skills are and what the nature of the inherited ability is. Let's take two transferrable skills: reading and wiping your butt. Wiping your own butt is an easily transferrable and inheritable skill that virtually everyone was taught, either at home or at school (your mamma isn't gonna do it for you all your life), but yet some people are functionally illiterate. So while it's definitely harder to teach a child to read if you yourself haven't read or can't read, I think it's fair to say that most people who are illiterate still know how to wipe their ass because someone taught them how - if you know what I mean (excluding cases of extreme, morbid child abuse, i.e. the "feral children" you read about in sociology class). If one is of the general position that the ability to wipe one's own behind is an essential form of "personal responsibility" (i.e., a basic behavioral prerequisite of civil society) then this ability is surely taught by the parent(s) and is a learned behavior - passed down from generations. But in the hierarchy of the things which are said to be "learned behaviors", our society tends to demand that you (as a prerequisite to success in general, upper grades of school, and the military) be at least able to read (which is a learned behavior). If someone was taught to wipe their behind but cannot read, then it seems to me that, on the whole, in many homes across America parents aren't parenting - and wiping your butt is, on the whole, taught actively because it's generally expedient (what parent isn't looking to rid themselves of that chore) while reading is taught passively as drop-out rates, intelligence tests, and literacy rates will show. And no one is saying that not being able to read is an insurmountable odd or some kind of great shame - Fantasia and R. Kelly aren't or weren't very good at it, but most people don't have the talent of a Fantasia or R. Kelly that lets them overcome having not learned that learned behavior. "Taking responsibility" as a parent means realizing that most people have to learn how to read to achieve similar financial success. As to whether it's innate or learned: If a child is considered a "blank slate", then "taking responsibility" in the innate form is just a vague reference to the propensity of humans for mimicry, as this is the beginning stages of all forms of personal responsibility. Taking responsibility, in the form of a learned behavior, is just that matrix of learned behaviors (prerequisites) that we refer to as "personal responsibility" when we reveal our biases about how we think able-bodied, sane people "should" behave in society (raise your children, educate your children, know how to read, do some basic math every now and then, don't commit crime, wear clothes, contribute to the underprivileged, vote, pay taxes, go to church, wipe your own butt, etc.)
DarkStar: do poor black parents generally require personal mentoring to realize that teaching their children to read is an important learned behavior?
DarkStar: do poor black parents generally require personal mentoring to realize that teaching their children to read is an important learned behavior?
What's the literacy rate for poor Black kids and I can answer the question since you used "generally"?
If the literacy rate is greater than 50%, then the answer would be no. If not, then the answer is yes.
In Baltimore, Philly, and parts of Wilmington, DEL, evidently some parents don't seem to know that their children shouldn't be hanging out in the street at 10, 11, 12... at night. Or, they don't care, or they have no control of their kids. If the latter, and they are worried about their kids, then they need help in getting their kids under control since they did not do a good job up until this point. Offer it, and if they are open, help, if not, try a few times and then move on if you will.
You're making excuses dude.
I'll keep this real simple: you set up a Catch-22 situation.
You seem to state that folks who aren't socialized to the norm need to be yelled at, chastised, into recognizing they are outside of the norm. If that doesn't work, then they deserve the criticism. If you reach out to those who are not socialized properly, then you chastise those who reached out for reaching out because those who aren't socialized properly, though not taught better, should know enough to know they are not socialized properly.
No one wins.
DR. POUSSAINT: And that was the spirit, I think, in many of the callouts. People who have reached rock bottom—drugs, jail and so on—were able to pull themselves together, sometimes with a self-revelation, but because other people cared and helped them, were able to come back and still succeed and make something of themselves.
I'll keep this real simple: you set up a Catch-22 situation.
You seem to state that folks who aren't socialized to the norm need to be yelled at, chastised, into recognizing they are outside of the norm. If that doesn't work, then they deserve the criticism. If you reach out to those who are not socialized properly, then you chastise those who reached out for reaching out because those who aren't socialized properly, though not taught better, should know enough to know they are not socialized properly.
No one wins.
DarkStar
You jumped through a bunch of mental hoops to avoid placing some of the blame on the guilty party in the failure to properly socialize their children. If an illiterate mother has a child, does she not realize the objective good of reading and literacy, or does she need a personal mentor to tell her about that? For black people, abandoned and marooned as they are in the late stages of European history, literacy should be an ubiquitous good. The order in which we help people and the order in which they show up to be helped should be (and is) naturally determined by those who can realize the importance of such things in less steps. Those who realize the importance of such things in less steps are the first to acknowledge that they need to get help and seek help successfully; those who require a personal mentor to come knock on their door are the last to seek help;--and this ordering ranges along the entire spectrum from those who know intuitively to seek help to those who simply don't give a damn.
I didn't chastise anyone. I'm not making excuses and there is no catch-22. What is the number of failing parents compared to the number of eligible mentors to do the work that the parents themselves should be doing? As long as the incompetent parents continue to out-number the mentors, we should should continue to target the bulk of the messages at the parents. No one is expecting someone who was not properly socialized to all of a sudden have some great "act right" epiphany without a model to emulate, or barring that, some adequate encouragement to do something constructive. I find it ironic that you're accusing me of making excuses when you are the one who will readily admit of the existence of people who simply, "don't care", but at the same time you're willing to expend endless amounts of time, energy, and resources, in trying to reach people that don't want to be reached. And I'm making excuses?
If a child is considered a "blank slate", then "taking responsibility" in the innate form is just a vague reference to the propensity of humans for mimicry, as this is the beginning stages of all forms of personal responsibility.
Cosby is urging people to give their own children something worthy of mimicking.
DarkStar, why is it that you are unable to see that these efforts are a part of a multi-pronged attack on failure? The slogan-based ad campaigns are delivered in tandem with localized efforts on the ground to enforce/spread the message. Cosby's message and your self-help website exist in the same universe. If Cosby's message isn't reaching it's intended audience, what makes you think Pookie and Ray Ray are logging on to your self-help site?
If the black underclass is in a crisis, we have multiple people on the case. The only thing you're saying about Cosby is, "My way is better than his way." Well whoop-dee-frigging-do!
Can anyone here objectively say that the Black Panther breakfast programs were "bad"?
Can anyone here objectively say that Cosby's message to poor people is "bad"?
Can anyone here objectively say that the Nation of Islam's efforts to reach out to black prisoners is "bad"?
Can anyone here objectively say that the creation of Kwanza was "bad"?
Can anyone here say the literary mental liberation efforts of Dyson and bell hooks is objectively "bad"?
No. You can't. No one can really say "bad" anything about any of them, but all people ever do is throw out these little contrarian remarks about how, "Yeah, the Black Panthers did some good things, but I disagree with them because of blah blah blah"; or, "Sure the NOI has converted a lot of black felons to Islam, but they rub me the wrong way because blah blah blah"; or, "I agree with what Cosby is saying in general, but I don't like his tone and his wording upsets me and the way he says it and blah blah blah."
...ugh.
You jumped through a bunch of mental hoops to avoid placing some of the blame on the guilty party in the failure to properly socialize their children.
I've stated this before, and I'll state this again. My assumption is if most people knew better, they would act accordingly. That was my reason for posting about Baby Steps. I haven't avoided a thing. I've stated it before.
Can anyone here objectively say that the Black Panther breakfast programs were "bad"?
Can anyone here objectively say that Cosby's message to poor people is "bad"?
Can anyone here objectively say that the Nation of Islam's efforts to reach out to black prisoners is "bad"?
Can anyone here objectively say that the creation of Kwanza was "bad"?
Can anyone here say the literary mental liberation efforts of Dyson and bell hooks is objectively "bad"?
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes and yes and people have done so.
The order in which we help people and the order in which they show up to be helped should be (and is) naturally determined by those who can realize the importance of such things in less steps. Those who realize the importance of such things in less steps are the first to acknowledge that they need to get help and seek help successfully; those who require a personal mentor to come knock on their door are the last to seek help;--and this ordering ranges along the entire spectrum from those who know intuitively to seek help to those who simply don't give a damn.
Of course, your approach leaves out kids who have no clue for the most part and need to be socialized in the first place.
Look, as a kid I traveled from NY to Baltimore on an airplane. I still come across ADULTS who have never flown. As a kid I flew from NY to Jamaica. I've seen coconut trees, climbed them, taken drinks out of industrial drums, used a machete to get to coconut milk and meat. But I've encountered youngsters who haven't been outside of the city. They know of no other possible life. According to what you wrote, if they don't take the time, themselves, to think outside of their local area, no adult other than their parents, should take the time to show them.
A problem with many kids is that they are unable think or dream about the future. So if I or anyone else takes the time to show them something so that they can dream and think of more than just their area, according to you, we shouldn't do it unless the kid takes the first step.
Cosby is urging people to give their own children something worthy of mimicking.
The fact that they are not doing it now, most likely means they don't know how to do it. So, reach out and show them.
I've talked with, and continue to talk with, teens and young teens and I have some idea of what goes on. They need people to be there with them. If not the parents, then what? Let them suffer and start the cycle again?
I have a system to build. I'm out.
According to what you wrote, if they don't take the time, themselves, to think outside of their local area, no adult other than their parents, should take the time to show them.
I never said that no adult other than their parents should show them if the kid themselves don't take the initiative - but none of this obviates that fact that the primary responsibility of carrying out such duties falls to those persons who conspired to birth the baby.
We have established that there is an ordering of people which begins with those who intuitively seek assistance and ends with those who are simply clueless or don't give a damn; and this is the order in which they come to the surface for air when drowning. Just because people are clueless or don't give a damn about drowning doesn't mean that we abandon that lagging end of the spectrum and cease trying to reach them through mentoring and deep diving. You keep reiterating that the world is in need of deep divers, but I refuse to believe that the majority of people are too dense to swim for the surface. I keep stressing the fact that the attack on failure is multi-pronged with many valid forms of contributions - reaching out and showing people how to do things is just one tactic. People are more than willing to reach out and help, but in order to leave people with some sense of dignity you need to let them play a role in their own salvation.
Who gets the first crack at socializing someone: The person who birthed them, or the person who comes along after-the-fact as a mentor later in life?
There is a distinction to be made between being relatively clueless about what to do, and knowing what's wrong but just not giving a damn. There is a difference between saying "I need to be socialized" and saying "I'm beyond socialization." At some point, someone has to break the cycle by telling the parent(s) to step their game up with regards to their children. I took a sociology class once where a young mother admitted to the class that she cursed around her children and called them little mothef*ckers. Oddly enough the section of the chapter were on was socialization. The professor asked her if her mother had used the same language around her as a child, to which she answered in the affirmative. The professor then assigned her the task of asking her daughter how she felt about her language and to report the answer her daughter gave to the class, as a homework assignment. A week later the young mother came back and told us what her daughter said. She told the class that her daughter said that her language made her feel bad. She stepped her parenting game up by taking and attending that sociology class, but how many people still think school is a waste of time?
At some point, someone has to break the cycle by telling the parent(s) to step their game up with regards to their children.
So, why do you assume I don't advocate teaching parents? What was the Baby Steps link all about?
If you read my "Dear Mr. Cosby" series, did you see where I, and others, went to the parents to get them to "step up their game"?
I'm saying it again, for what number of times now(?), if they aren't doing right, teach them to do right.
I took a sociology class once where a young mother admitted to the class that she cursed around her children and called them little mothef*ckers. Oddly enough the section of the chapter were on was socialization. The professor asked her if her mother had used the same language around her as a child, to which she answered in the affirmative. The professor then assigned her the task of asking her daughter how she felt about her language and to report the answer her daughter gave to the class, as a homework assignment. A week later the young mother came back and told us what her daughter said. She told the class that her daughter said that her language made her feel bad. She stepped her parenting game up by taking and attending that sociology class, but how many people still think school is a waste of time?
My God. I don't think you realize that is an example of what I'm advocating.
OK, I'm done with you.
C'mon Darkstar.
You know conservatives aren't concerned about mentoring or the uplift of the underclass.
With them it's all empty sloganeering about "bootstraps" and "personal responsibility".
This is the crux of the matter. "bootstraps" and "personal responsibility" really ARE just slogans to a lot of black people. That's why they sit there with their hands out, waiting for someone else to do everything for them while they trifle about. Thus, "black progress" moves at the speed of "white charity" (or "black middle class charity"). Of course charity by human nature is only a fraction of what one accomplishes for himself, which is why blacks will continue to be at the bottom. Don't bother bringing up Hispanics because they will surge ahead soon enough while you attack "conservatives" for their silly slogans that have only managed to build empires elsewhere.
^^^^
That was me
My God. I don't think you realize that is an example of what I'm advocating.
Duh, I do realize it, that's why I brought it up. Why is this so hard for you? You've stated pretty clearly that this is what you're advocating and I have acknowledged what you are advocating and have explicitly said that such efforts are needed and commendable. Surely you don't think that I was unaware that the story I posted example was a prime example of what you were talking about - that was the primary reason I posted the story, to show that I know what you're talking about. Instead of seeing this you tried to be cute and say, "Oh look, he doesn't even realize that his story is an example of what I'm advocating!" Please. You act like you're the only one who understands basic sociology. You're not even trying to address the points I've made anymore, just looking for a way to end the debate so that you come out looking like you've "won". At this point you're just saying a whole lot of nothing with your line about My Way is better than His Way.
OK, I'm done with you.
DarkStar
"I'm done with you": Stop acting like a baby. I bet you like, huffed away from the monitor after you posted this.
Anyone want to talk about mentoring or how to help people rise up out of the muck?
Darkstar:
That's where the mistake starts - thinking you rise anyone out of anything. They need to want to do it and they show this by not doing stupid things like having more babies than they can afford or ditching school.
Take a ghetto kid that avoids all the usual traps, and I'd say that mentoring could be as easy as creating a buddy system. Kinda like Big Brothers, only for rising stars. Much of the time, kids just need to know HOW to do something (ie HOW to get those scholarships to stay in school or HOW to keep credit card debt down).
"The story of Black Arts around the country cannot be told without having a Bill Cosby story here and there, all over this country.
And, we're not even going to get into the untold MILLIONS upon MILLIONS that he's given to help those get a 'hand up' through education.
The man isn't perfect; nobody is.
But, very few of any generation has walked the walk - WITH THEIR OWN MONEY the way that Cosby has with our community.
For that alone, he can say whatever he wants from where I sit."
This is on point.
...although Cos really didn't come off well-prepared or sharp in this interview.
thegrayconservative,
Some would call your comments 'ideological', to me they're common sense.
Anyone want to talk about mentoring or how to help people rise up out of the muck?
DarkStar
Broken record mode. All of the following are designed to help people rise out of the proverbial "muck":
Mentoring, youth and adult literacy programs, family planning assistance, parenting classes, after-school programs, free clinics, free STD testing, drug rehab clinics, public service announcements, business seminars, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, battered womens centers, state scholarships, job training programs, dating services, marriage counseling, financial management courses, mental health services, personal counseling, unemployment offices, debt help, credit repair services, free legal advice, numerous videos and tutorials on every subject, housing assistance, substance abuse groups, anger management groups, eating disorders groups, free nutrition advice, computer training, social skills training, etiquette classes, call centers, neighborhood watch programs, MADD, SOSAD, DARE, and on and on and on.
Help is out there for people and has been for a long long time. If you want to help, pick one of the above and volunteer. Don't have time to volunteer because you have kids or work for a living? Cut someone a check every month - that's what I do.
So let's talk methods DarkStar.
From my experience, people don't need to be helped out of the muck as much as they need someone to believe in them when they formulate their own plans for getting themselves out of their current situation.
Most people will have the initial gumption to realize that they need to get out and do something for themselves. Some people resolve to go to beauty school, or chef school for instance, because they realize that these things are objectively good, legal vocations. And they generally come to this conclusion independently of someone suggesting it to them. If you ask an unwed teen mother what she plans to do to support her baby, she'll usually have throw out some basic plans (go to school/get a job) as an answer. So the initial spark is usually there.
What most people need is for someone to legitimately believe in them. The implication is that when someone actually believes in you, you run the risk of disappointing them when you fail at whatever it was they believed you could do. Most people—if their parents were around and doing their job—are afraid of disappointing their parents because their parents were those first people who believed in them.
I have had many of my friends come and tell me, "Thank you. You believed in me when no one else did." And I am able to recognize those times in my life when someone believed in me. In high school, kids used to tell me, "Man, you're gonna end up working with computers." And I did end up working with computers, because the people around me (including my mother) believed in me, and it gave me confidence.
My mother is a RN and works in the mental health field. Some patients can be admitted and go about their stay without direct care and will mingle with the other patients without much issue. Patients who are the most severe require direct, individualized management from a RN for the majority of the duration of their stay. According to her they call this "One-to-One" care, and they have to document it as such when patients are admitted: "Patient is a severe depressive and will require One-to-One care." My mother can determine this intuitively when she is admitting people. She'll say something like, "I knew when I looked at that guy he needed to be on a One-to-One."
A mentor provides that One-to-One when the parents don't bother to do so. A mentor's primary job is to say, "I believe in you." The vast majority of success stories indicate that there was someone who believed in the person: "someone stuck with me; they believed in me." A mentor says, "I am here. I believe in you. Don't disappoint me."
Having someone sign a pledge to do something doesn't mean a damn thing if an actual living, breathing person isn't there to express their disappointment when they fail. You can't disappoint a document.
But how many people have people in their lives who legitimately believe in them, but they simply don't give a damn and actively decide to fail anyway? That's entropy. Entropy doesn't require believing, it requires shaking and screaming and the gnashing of teeth - that's where Cosby comes in. Again, this is all part of a multi-pronged attack on failure. Why bother wagging your finger at the guy who is only a single cog in the machine of uplift?
No one is standing in the way of the ultimate goal. Let the DarkStars of the world deal with the much needed need for believing in people and let the Cosby's of the world deal with the entropy.
That's where the mistake starts - thinking you rise anyone out of anything.
You offer a hand. If they take it, you can help raise them. Not one time have I ever commented that they don't need to do work themselves. Yet people keep assuming that's what I'm saying.
Take a ghetto kid that avoids all the usual traps, and I'd say that mentoring could be as easy as creating a buddy system. Kinda like Big Brothers, only for rising stars. Much of the time, kids just need to know HOW to do something (ie HOW to get those scholarships to stay in school or HOW to keep credit card debt down).
OK, that's what I'm saying. But there are those who have not avoided those traps that can also be helped to dig out of the hole and start to advance, if you give them a reason to do so. I've helped to do both.
So, why the criticism to what I'm writing?
Some would call your comments 'ideological', to me they're common sense.
And mine are or are not? Noting that I have helped some, means what?
From my experience, people don't need to be helped out of the muck as much as they need someone to believe in them when they formulate their own plans for getting themselves out of their current situation.
So, exactly what is different from what you've written than from what I've written? I see none, so to you, what is the difference?
No one is standing in the way of the ultimate goal. Let the DarkStars of the world deal with the much needed need for believing in people and let the Cosby's of the world deal with the entropy.
Look, I have an engineering background, so to me, entropy is randomness. I have to assume you mean inertia.
In most cases, inertia isn't broken from afar, it's broken by dealing with people one on one, many times in their own environment.
Someone I know wasn't involved in his son's life because of the mother. I, and others, dealt with him on a regular basis to try to get him to be more involved in his son's life, and even giving advice on using the court system to bring it about. It worked. The general message going out that men need to be involved in the lives of their children, he heard, but it didn't motivate him. It didn't break the inertia. People in his life helped break the inertia. We did it, not Cosby-esque screaming from afar.
[quote]When do we get tired of having our good will and ability to look forward into the future spat upon?[/quote]
Stephanie:
The root of the problem is ASSUMED INFERIORITY.
Those who see "Helping other Blacks" as the root of Black Consciousness are UNABLE to articulate what they expect from those Blacks they see as VICTIMS to assist in their own SALVATION. They are DAMAGED GOODS, you know.
Blacks who have "made it" should never be able to rest as there are two or three of his brothers who have no such comfort. All of this is put forth in the context of the theory that HISTORICAL RACISM is the overwhelming primary antagonist which has lead to this condition. In abstracting the choices made by the Victim we don't have to centrally focus on THEIR correction. The focus instead is on SOCIETY'S CORRECTION.
Until the "Black Inferioritists" see ALL BLACK MEN AS EQUAL and capable of carrying the load and then DEMANDING such from him - all of this posturing is worthless.
[quote]You seem to state that folks who aren't socialized to the norm need to be yelled at, chastised, into recognizing they are outside of the norm.[/quote]
This is a fundamentally flawed and dishonest statement.
The bottom line is PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CHANGE THEIR CONDITION need to apply scientific study as to where they stand right now, where they want to be and the means of getting there coupled with HONEST ASSESSMENT regarding the EFFICACY of what they have been using for change and the willingness to PURGE what is failing them.
At the end of the day THIS is the issue. If people resist the acceptance of these new measures then they should content themselves in staying where they are because THEY HAVE DONE EVERYTHING NECESSARY to remain there.
So the issue is NOT "The Norm". The issue is WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO DO TO ACHIEVE IT.
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