I'm not sure why people want X students to move back to campus housing. When they move to on campus housing it'll leave multi family homes vacant and available. The people that will rent in these multi families are not young professionals like rentals in Hyde Park. They're low income people who litter the streets, don't care about their property, and who noone wants to live near. I'd welcome X students next door to me. Instead the rentals near me litter and have domestic screaming fights in their front yard. Park wood chippers, trailers, and race cars on the street and have a back yard full of scrap metal. I'd welcome a keg party over cutting up old cars in the back yard. That's just me.
The majority of the "multi-family" houses currently occupied by XU students in south Norwood are what used to be large single family homes. When they are no longer occupied by XU students, new buyers will hopefully come in and convert them back to single family dwellings. Much like the homes on the east side of town. A lot of homes were cut up into sleeping rooms for GM workers back in the day. Thats why the young professionals like to purchase in Norwood. Hyde park size and style at a Norwood price.
I agree, I sure wish that the rentals in Norwood would be changed to single family homes. That would be great for everyone. Unfortunately, it's not very simple for a lot of multi family homes in this city. The expense to change a home with 2 kitchens, 2 entries, and a firewall down the middle of the house is very expensive. I would love to see these old houses restored to single families. If that's not possible I'd almost rather college kids over the typical Norwood renter.
If that Funeral Home party with the wristbands sold to gain entry doesn't get some students expelled, I don't know what would. If that and the printed disclaimer are true, it's time for the university to make well-publicized examples of students who have broken the law.
Isn't part of the whole deal/presentation or problem that it is next to impossible to renovate anything in Norwood because of the codes that are in place? Heck, I'm even worried once I try to make minor improvements my own house like turning my driveway from a one to two car space, or replacing the rickety old privacy fence that surrounds my back yard. I can't even imagine what kind of a pain it would be to turn a multi family back into a single family. Are we seriously expecting that the current landlords are going to take on this endeavor? They won't do it and will not sell their properties. They will just rent them out again to the undesirables mentioned in previous comments.
The City is doing all it can, but it lacks a clear, unified voice. There are way too many commissions that have decision making responsibility in this town. Even the Mayor - however competent and well intentioned - is only part a time employee.
We need to think about taking a few pages from surrounding communities and get a council - manager form of government that will provide clear leadership, accountability and *substantive* community patricipation.
OR we should change the city charter to Mayor - Council with a the mayor being a full time executive with commensureate pay. There are too many things happening in town to not take this window of opportunity seriously.
Its time to put to rest this commission nonsense. It might have worked in times of yore - when who you went to high school with was more improtant than what the person knew. But times are different now, and we need professional leadership.
We need to make it WAAAAAAAAAYYYYY easier for people to renovate in Norwood. With the economy it is no one can afford the permits and fines...much less quality materials or labor. And I have yet to find any house in Norwood that is "getting younger".
We need to make it WAAAAAAAAAYYYYY easier for people to renovate in Norwood. With the economy it is no one can afford the permits and fines...much less quality materials or labor. And I have yet to find any house in Norwood that is "getting younger".
The people who think that all the houses in Norwood that are rented by X students would be renovated back to single family are nuts. Fairview Heights is right next to UC, the housing stock is nicer than the neighborhood surrounding Norwood, it also has amazing views of downtown and the western hills. Single family houses that aren't rented to students sit vacant, every once in a while a wily professor will convert a home to single family and live there a few years, but this has little traction. Norwood is so backwards on some of this stuff, accept what you have and find a way to benefit from it. Most struggling cities would give anything to have a private university in their municipality, yet every piece of local news I see is about how unruly Xavier students are. I know I'd kill to have some students living near me in the northwest of Norwood, people might actually start to clean their yards up and try to rent their places.
Another way to "take back" the multi-family homes doesn't involve any construction at all, just a bit of creative marketing. Marketing them as "mother-daughter" (or family-grandparents) houses is a great way to get quality people into them and keep families together at the same time. We did this with our daughter and it works great. We know who is renting from us, and know that the place is taken care of. And we both save on mortgage payments.
Hey UC student, you get it. I'm not sure why you get it and I get it but others here in Norwood don't. Like I always say, it would be great to have Xavier students renting near me. Instead I have your typical Norwood renters near me. Not what you want on your street, trust me. If the X students move out of the rentals they're not going to be converted back to single family homes. Too expensive.
Another Anonymous, why do you want to "take back" the multi-family housing? The only taking back I see is the hillbilly who broke into the empty house next to me and stole some copper pipes while his aunt watched from her front porch across the street. If I were on city council I would be marketing this city as a place where young professionals and students can get a foothold and become long-term residents. Companies like Emersion Design, who hire young college kids, are setting up shop here, how great would it be if we welcomed their employees to live here? Most cities would kill for the opportunity that Norwood is complaining about.
For those who think it is too hard or too expensive to renovate in Norwood I must disagree. We purchased our home in 2001, it had previously been a multi-family rental. We have changed back to a single family and continue with ongoing projects. The floor plan has chnaged, the general appearance and the infrastructure. It is a 3800 sq foot, 14 room house with 2 full baths, jaquzi, 5 bedrooms, dressing room, 10 foot cove ceilings, built in book cases, modern kitchen, Forced air heating and central air. We paid $93,000 for it, put in about $50,000 in contractual work and materials. Last appraisal 4 years ago was just over $210,000. There are great opportunities here if you are creative and willing to work. (When the kids move out I am buying a condo, LOL)
Everyone appears to be missing the point here. From my perspective, Norwood is rapidly becoming another Clifton. This explosion of growth is due to a safer enviroment provided by NPD, convient location (I71/75) and affordable/available building sites. Ever notice all the traffic and medical buildings going in every week?
Xavier U. has the money, the clout, the land and a plan to transform the face of Norwood. XU did not buy Zumbiel and the Plaza for parking lots. Xavier is getting ready to double enrollment in the next 5 years to increase revenues. If you are building bigger schools and more classrooms, you must be expecting more students, right?
More students translates into more student housing. 650 market rate apartments will house 1300 students.
Current enrollment is 9000 students and I can believe 15,000 is possible in a few years. Students DO NOT want to live on campus, Check out XU.edu archives in editorials for student opinions. No keggers, no pets, no pot, no loud music, and you and I both know, cornhole and peeing in the bushes wouldn't as fun anymore. The students housing being built would just hold the students who didn't find off-campus housing.
Student housing will continue to grow, so the only think we can do, is make sure it is done correctly. Our building dept. does an excellent job, believe it or not. One last thing, if you want Norwood to be more desireable, clean up the streets that are gate ways to our city. Sherman Ave, lower Hopkins, Carthage Ave, Smith Rd, Ross Ave, Robertson, Norwood Ave, Highland and Montgomery Rd. all need a good scrub downand fresh coat of paint. Even Floral and Cleaney are starting to look a little run down.
XU is changing the face of Norwood for their benefit, not the citizens who live here. Wake up, people. Does XU donate any money or things other than free studies to the city.
Joey,
Do you want Norwood to remain bombed out and depleted? Xavier employs people who pay taxes. Xavier pays property taxes. You speak of cleaning streets up and making gateways, is this free? Norwood had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to keep the health department open another year. Based on your comments about Clifton I assume you have not spent much time there. Based on your comments about off-campus living and the desires of students I assume you never were a young adult. I live in the northwest of Norwood and have many of the same problems you seem to think only college students generate, and my neighbors are lifelong Norwood residents.
One of the reasons I moved to Norwood was to be in a city with potential. Xavier, low taxes, and proximity to the highways are the three main reasons that Norwood is growing and taking any of those three away would set the city back. You close by saying Xavier is out for their own benefit and not for the benefit of those who live here. You could not be further off base. The two are not interchangeable, the poor condition of the neighborhoods surrounding Xavier prompted them to expand and make a decent environment for their existing students and potential students. No one wants to go to a school that is in the middle of Baghdad, and in the post GM world, Norwood was resembling that. You are right to say we need to work with the University to control the growth. We have a planning commission for issues such as these, and having been to several meetings, they do an excellent job.
Joey,
Xavier's current enrollment is not 9,000. According to Wikipedia, last year's undergrad enrollment was 4500 plus 2,500 grad students.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xav...ty_(Cincinnati)
Also, Liz Blume of the Community Building Institute said during her recent presentation of the Norwood Housing Strategy that it is NOT the intention of the university to dramatically increase enrollment. I believe she quoted a figure of 5-7% increase only in the foreseeable future. Where are you getting your forecast for a huge increase?
I haven't heard any locals bashing Xavier's upcoming developments. People I talk to mostly express delight that the Plaza is about to become a thing of the past.
As for cleaning up the City, I quite agree with you, but that doesn't happen overnight. Mayor Williams has been trying to get it done for the last 5 years. Lately, he's been demolishing bad properties, hired a new and effective Building Commissioner, and worked to get codes enforced. It takes time and money, and there's not an overabundance of the latter in the City's coffers at the moment, but I do think the Mayor is chipping away at the problems.
The best way to clean the city up is to create a positive environment for companies to come here. I'm not saying give the city away or let the tail wag the dog, but 3,5 and 10 year tax abatements help, access to rehab credits and historic preservation information would also help. I think taking the ground that things were fine before Xavier wanted to show its face in Norwood is disastrous and ignorant.
I too moved to Norwood because it was a city with potential. I just wonder how long it will continue being a city with potential. I go back and forth. Sometimes I think it really could be a great city. Other times I just feel discouraged and want to spend the extra money to live in an area that's already nice. I just had a kid and wonder about my little girl playing in the front yard when our neighbors are outside screeming at each other. Oh and our neighbors that are the problem on the street are lifelong Norwood people. Not Xavier students.
If people are outside screaming at each other, i.e. being loud and unruly, or throwing trash around, what the heck difference does it make if it's lifelong Norwood people or Xavier students? The result is the same for the residents being disturbed.
to krs,
Amen!
If companies continue to leave and XU students are gone (chased out), I give it another 10 to 15 years until Norwood contrasts Oakley/Hyde Park in the same manner Lockland and Arlington Heights are viewed when crossing the tracks in from Wyoming.
Anonymous @6:45 PM wrote -
If people are outside screaming at each other, i.e. being loud and unruly, or throwing trash around, what the heck difference does it make if it's lifelong Norwood people or Xavier students? The result is the same for the residents being disturbed.
I've posted this before and will post it again because anon @6:45 just doesn't get it.
The X.U. students are goal oreiented people who, if asked, will tell where they plan to be five years from today.
A freshman will state he/she plans to be in grad school or working at their profession while attending grad school part time.
Now go to that Norwood couple who is fighting in the yard in the presence of the fellow with his little girl in his yard. Where will they be five years from now? Probably in another secton 8 unit and still working at minimum wage - if they work at all. If you attempted to explain goal orientation to them - you would get a blank look.
Who wants to be that anon @6:45 pm is anti-Catholic and probably anti beer.
6:50 a.m., your distinction is absurd.
What you don't get is that what lawbreakers will or won't be doing in 5 years has nothing to do with 1.) how laws are intended to be evenly applied. 2.) how law enforcement is intended to be evenly applied, and 3.) how their victims are negatively affected. Please direct me to a law or Norwood ordinance that gives passes to offenders who have a bright future. It's acually quite the contrary. Years ago, Norwood City Council acknowledged XU student behavior is a rampant problem for residents by passing the Disorderly Housing ordinance, proposed by Keith Moore who could probably write a book on the subject.
It's ridiculous to propose that residents who are repeatedly awakened by loud partying, etc. should stop and evaluate how productive the offenders will be 5 years before taking action. Guess what - These Norwood residents already ARE productive members of society, owning homes, working and supporting their families, volunteering, etc. Under your plan, they should ignore unruly behavior that disturbs their peace and sleep unless the offenders are locals that don't contribute much to society. Right. Then I guess you have no problem if families take flight from Norwood so the students can have their Wild West here for a few years before they go on to be highly paid professionals.
First of all to UC student and Anon who responded to my post. 7000 students plus employees plus suppliers and visitors equal close to 9000 give or take 500. Ms. Blume quoted 5-7% increase(a year?)in attendance, but she only knows what she is told and isn't a decision maker anyway. From my many years in the job world, big money investments MUST translate into big moneymakers or investors wouldn't invest, right? XU must grow or it will not survive at its current level. Any CEO or city leader will tell you, growth is necessary to maintain the norm.
The reason no locals have bashed the demise of the old Plaza because it is great idea! I'm not against growth and that area of Norwood needs it more than most. What I am trying to say is, XU expansion is a good thing, but everything, including growth, comes with a price to be paid by the residents.
Speaking of UC, I attended the place in the 70'S and I have seen more changes to Clifton than you have, many in just the last 5 years. Where you ever at the X Commune? Good times there, buddy! But drunkenness is no excuse for bad behavior.
To UC student, I have lived here long enough to remember when Norwood WAS bombed out and depleted. It isn't anymore. By the way how much property taxes does XU pay? I walk my neighborhood ever day and can tell you which houses are lived in by students, young professionals, or just plain hard working people trying to make a living. The poor conditions you mentioned around Xavier were created by Xavier, city leaders and investors who capitalized on the low values and abundance of housing and with a possible upside to their investment in Norwood housing. As Mr. Moore pointed out numerous times, investors look at most homes for sale before family buyers do. Makes good business sense. XU is just trying to be a tolerable neighbor.
Joey, you want to say that Xavier wants to grow yet they also want to trash the neighborhoods that frames their university? Your logic is absurd. I would happily have some drunk neighbors as opposed to the vacant houses that currently surround me. You seem to think there are families that are dying to purchase homes in Norwood that are instead being rented out to X students. I find it hard to believe that speculation is a reason that the neighborhoods around X are in poor shape. The reality is that the manufacturing and factory base that Norwood was built upon are no longer existing. Gone are the good paying jobs that didn't require a college degree. Now we are lucky enough to be gaining excellent companies which are hiring skilled workers, however, some of which are drawn in by the idea of a local university to help staff them. I know numerous Norwood companies that hire Xavier and UC students for part time, summer, and eventually, full time employment.
I think your mindset is that Xavier wants to do the least possible in Norwood while extracting the most out. In this economy and at this point in our country, that is simply not possible. To get the best students (and to grow as you claim) Xavier needs attractive surroundings. This is their incentive to make Norwood better.
If council did pass a Disorderly Housing ordinance years ago to deal with the Xavier problems then that ordinance should just be enforced. The police in this city won't enforce ordinances unless there's a complaint made, even then it's difficult to get anything done. Seems we have all the laws we need to deal with out of control Xavier kids. We have all the laws we need to deal with people letting their property go to crap. They're just not enforced.
Dear UC student, You ar getting closer to the truth. No where did I say XU wants to trash our neighborhoods to grow their university. XU wants our neighborhoods to change or disappear. Believe it! They don't care about the residents. You say you would like to have drunk neighbors rather than empty houses next door to you? Ever wake up at 3AM with 3 or 4 police cars sirens blaring to stop the drunks from fighting next door? I doubt it. Families are not dying to move here. Seen any new ones in your area lately? School attendance continues to decline. You may find it hard to believe XU led to the decline, but in a way they did. Investors found out they could buy a house for $80,000 or less. Take out a 30 year mortgage with 20% down and your monthly payment is around $650. Rent the house out to 4-5 students for $1200 and they pay their own utilities. Investor makes $550 profit. What family wants to live between two houses of college kids? I'll take the empty houses personally.
Your are correct when you stated XU wants to get the most and give up the least. To get the best students, we need attractive surroundings as you state, but at what cost to the residents? Are well to tell them they are are not good enough to live here anymore?
Joey, you act like Xavier students are more of a problem than the native Norwood residents. I have been woken several times in the night when the 50 year old couple across the street decides to get drunk and brawl, its better than being woken by someone mistaking my house for one of the empty ones and smashing my window out. If I had to choose between random crime due to the opportunity of empty houses or the focused crime of self destructive drunks, I will take the drunks any day, they don't lower my property value.
Families avoid Norwood because the schools are terrible and the housing stock is low quality, not because there are college kids living in the neighborhood who get loud sometimes. Your idea that these neighborhoods have existing character is laughable, my neighborhood consists of old people and soon to be old people in their 50's and 60's who can reminisce about when Norwood thrived, or it is 30 year old lifetime renters who collect unemployment and leave their broken down cars in the street. Show me someone getting priced out of Norwood and I'll show them where to get a Section 8 voucher. Since so many houses sit empty and schools are downsizing, why live a lie and try to attract families, or posture that they want to live here? Why not accept that Norwood's sustainable amount of families is probably much lower than it currently is and the best way to grow it is to try and keep some of the educated X students who in a few years will be functioning members of society? The daytime population of Norwood is much higher educated now because of the companies here in Norwood, why not capitalize on that and get some of them to live here?
Also, as someone who rents houses out, your numbers about rent and profit are incredibly off base. If you can get 100$ a month positive cash flow out of one of those places after all the overhead you are lucky. Today's college student is not living in the squalor that their parents did. People expect nicer things and there is a competitive market for nicer places. A lot of the preconceptions about landlords, especially around Xavier, are very misinformed.
More of this clap trap. Look X students mess up ticket and fine them. At least their parents will pay the fines. Unlike some zombie wandering around Surrey Square pan handling for crack.
If the Norwood Building Department and the Health Department were granted the ability to write and issue tickets (fines) on the spot. Would go a long way to stop a lot of the quality of life issues in Norwood.Also Norwood needs to revisit it's coeds and or dances to up date them and make them current.
Can you imagine the revenue for the city, if they would just enforce ordinances. As it is now you can do whatever you want on the mean streets of Norwood. Got a boat? Park it on the street for the winter. Got a truck that won't run? Park it on the street for the winter. Got a trailer full of stolen scrap metal? Park it on the street. The police don't care. City government doesn't care. If the police and city government continue to not care, those of us who make good money and pay the income taxes and property taxes will move. Norwood will be left with a ghost town type city that noone will even want to drive through.
Drive down Jefferson Ave. between Floral and Forest and look at the trailer with the hollowed out race car sitting on top of it. It's awesome!
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