Hi Brad,
Another word for "conservative" in your article is "cessationist" . Cessationists often present cessationism as a belief that merely the miraculous gifts, ie. tongues have ceased. In fact, cessationism is a view that encompasses any and all claims that a contemporary Christian might make that he is having a conscious sense of communion with God via the Holy Spirit. Recognizing that there are different types of cessationists, cessationists generally work backward from the idea that for one to look to any conscious, contemporary sense of God's presence as a means to move forward in one's sanctification is a claim that threatens the "self-sufficiency" of Scripture. A cessationist understands that the "self-sufficiency" of Scripture is exclusionary to any and all experiences of God that would come after the creation of the Bible canon. To a cessationist, for a contemporary person to claim a special experience of God puts them at risk of making themselves co-equal to the relevatory experiences of the God that were experienced by the OT prophets and the NT gift of prophecy, which they consider as a gift that ended when the Bible canon became complete and therefore "self-sufficient". Depending on which cessationist you talk to, the possibility for a direct experience of God is something that has either "ceased" or is at least something that cannot be trusted.
As you stated our existential experience of feeling separated from God is directly connected to our objective reality that we are separated from God – as you said they are inextricably woven with cause and effect. The New Testament recognizes that the "feelings that war within us" (James) are part of dis-connect from God and/or our imcomplete sanctification, and it is the New Testament that promises the transformation of our hearts via the Holy Spirit as we accept the reconciliation with God provided by Christ Jesus. As one feels the presense of God working on his heart, one is feeling the healing touch of God as surely as if God were healing his body. Here, the difference between subjective and objective reality falls by the wayside.
It is a cessationist who, unfortunately, works backward from a jaundiced doctrine of the Holy Spirit to deny many of the sundry ways that God allows Christians to experience His trans-rational and trans-physical healing as it operates both objectively and subjectively. It is sad that the doctrine of cessationism pre-disposes a cessationist to be more concerned about the fear that the authority of chapter-verse Scripture is being hurt in the presense of the testimony of experiences of God than he is pre-disposed to be grateful that the God that Scripture speaks of and promises is alive and powerful, and moving.
greg,
Your point is definitely true in theory but I think many people who in practice are anti-experience would not theologically be astute enough to call themselves cessationists. Most Christians don;t know what cessationist means. So I guess it matters what my audience is and the people I was thinking of when writing this are not actually cessationists but in practice the audience I am think of neglects the role of experience in sanctification.
Hi Brad,
Your point is well taken. Self-described cessationists would only be one category of people under the umbrella of those who do not have a high value for experience. Dispensationists would be another category, of which cessationists are one type (believing that the dispensation of miracles/gifts/direct experience of the Spirit has ended). The "conservative" common denomonator is a tendency to protect the integrity of doctrine against the seeming chaos and dis-order and uncontrollability that happens when Christians are allowed to seek and experience the full existential mystery of God's movement in their lives.
There are many aspects of our experiences that need to be taken captive and need to be examined, to understand precisely how God is really moving and working. The conservative tendency is to avoid this task, operating out of fear/concern more than hope/optimism. Conservative tendencies are often reactions against those who are too enamored of experience and who over-spiritualize their thoughts and decisions (God told me to do this, that, etc...) at the expense of sound doctrine. Both conservative tendencies and those charismatic tendencies that conservatives fear are both ways of doctrinally "falling off the horse" as Luther would say.
"We must understand that the only power that we have over sin is the power of a conscious relationship with Jesus Christ."
Good call! As a Christian, a Pentecostal Christian, I couldn't agree more. Keep up the good work! God Bless.
Hello Brad. I do so much appreciate your addressing this root issue here, a person's "subjective consciousness of life." I would alternatively call this the meaninglessness of existence or the lovelessness of existence.
I have been a Christian for more than forty years and yet I still feel the hunger and the thirst at this existential level. I personally tend to feel more pain with my perceived lack meaningful relationship than I do with guilt for sin (even though I am guilty of sin).
You listed the negatives of existence: fear, dread, insecurity, guilt, defeat and shame. Would you agree that these are symptoms of the lack (to some degree) of the positives of existence - faith, hope and love?
I first found the linguistic tools to express these problems in Kierkegaard's "Sickness unto Death". Later I found Abraham Heschel's "Who is Man", which expounded upon the problem of man's existence and the answer in relationship with God. To tell you the truth, after reading "Who is Man?" I walked around for months telling all my friends that Heschel, a rabbi/philosopher, had done a much better job writing meaningfully on this issue than any evangelical author I had seen.
On the cessetionist/charismatic discussion - I know and love people in both camps. I've heard Christians consigning other Christians to hell for doing what the apostle Paul did every day. I've also seen people defile their bodies with tatoos "because God told me too."
You mentioned the necessity of our being "immediately aware of God" and our relationship with Christ. I really appreciate this. I would respectfully submit that this relationship must reconcile each person to his neighbor and to himself, as well as to God directly. I would submit that the inner disintegration of the human soul, with its self-hatred, lack of self-love is just about the biggest enemy to the personal relationship with God and our brothers and sisters.
I must admit I stress this because I have learned it experientially in my own struggles in my walk with God and others. But then, from what you have said, I would guess you can respect that.
I do like your weblog. I linked to it.
Joe
Open Joe,
WOW!!! Someone who speaks my language. I will definitely link to your blog and start reading. Thanks for the book recommendations.
Greg,
A very good read. I'm still chewing on it a little bit because it wasn't exactly written in my type of language. So this is really just my first gut response. I think it's very important to uphold the subjective experience. We need to really feel God's presence in order to grow in faith. But I wouldn't neglect the objective completely. One of the techniques I would use to stop myself from sinning would be to go through my memory the effects of that sin in the past. I believe this would be an objective approach to spiritual growth from your perspective. But, while this was useful at times, I found this did get me in trouble at times because I would be tossing guilt onto myself over past experiences and eventually feeling pretty (crappy) about myself. That's why I like the subjective approach, as you call it, it upholds my own personal experience to be really important. I think they need to work together, objective and subjective, in order to find ourselves closer to the Kingdom of God.
Oops sorry, I meant to address the comment to Brad, the author of the post.
I don’t understand. The emerging church seems to be covering up truth with thing we find appealing.. people are pleased that they don’t have to do certain traditions.. but don’t you think that at somepoint; God wants us to sacrifice as his Son sacrificed for us? Shouldnt Christianity be more about exact truth rather than gifts & things that might please us???
Does this make sense?
Brian,
I do not understand your point. Here is my point. As ministers of the Gospel, we are to deliver for people victory over sin. My point is that the root of sin is in our self-centered motives. This root is in our subjective experience of life. Therefore, we must bring God to people in their experience of life as a subject for people to have a trnasformation of their inner man and therefore, victory over sin. The answer to this sin problem that resided at its root in our experience of life is conscious contact with God.
I must contend with the statement about the distinguishing characteristic of charismatics being emotion. I am an Assembly of God. Yet I have never felt corresponding feelings. That is I have sometimes felt guilty but I have seldom felt vile. And I have seldom felt forgiven when I asked forgiveness. However I know well enough to know that that is of limited relevance. I know that I am vile in myself and righteous in Christ and I do not necessarily need to "trust my feelings." I did not have a "conversion experience" as such though I do remember roughly the time I "converted" if that is applicable to someone brought up in the Church(we believe that all Christians are "converts" in the sense of personally agreeing, but there was no sharp distinction in my case).
The point I am making is that in fact there are more complications. I never put much stock in feelings as such. They are only one guide. I know I am saved because the Bible says so. But I hardly felt it because I am just not that kind of person.
Justin,
Strangely I am saying something much different than you seem to have read. I am saying that to focus on our feelings or experiences is a good thing and that it is exactly our experiences that constitute salvation. In other words, the gospel of the love of God really does make us experience peace if we do it right.
Sorry for the lengthy response. This is what I have been indulging in: http://buzzplant.com/truthwar/ecard1/
The book is exactly what I was thinking when I had left that first message. It explains the dangers of the emergent church.
This may sound odd but I have never understood why Christians today have such a problem with "evil" or with God somehow being the "author" of sin. In my mind any attempt to take any of God's sovereignty away from God is against Scripture.
Hi Brad,
You seem to have made an unbiblical assumption which has significant implications for your practical applications.
Separation from God does not cause sin. Sin causes separation from God because the separation from God is His judgment upon sin. This is a clear theme throughout the entire Bible, i.e. sin leads to judgment over and over again in both Old and New Testaments.
If the problem begins with sin then it is our sinful state before God that must first be dealt with. If one mistakenly supposes that sin is the result of separation, the real problem of sin will never be dealt with. Imagine trying to have a subjective experience with God when the person having the experience is a filthy, greasy, diseased rag and God is pure, smooth, white silk. First the rag must be made clean, acceptable and holy before coming near God. This is Christ's work on the cross in purifying and justifying filthy rags (us). What an offense it would be to God otherwise!
I agree that experience is important and that God does give His people an experience of a sort in Him which is a deeply peaceful, moving, loving and satisfying thing. However, that experience is not available to those who want the experience and don't want to submit to God's command to repent. Those who do not turn from their sin will only receive a counterfeit peace from Satan which, unless remedied, will ultimately have them pleading "Lord, Lord" on Judgment Day (Matthew 7).
We have to remember that God's glory in us is the first priority for God, even if it at the expense of our personal comfort in the short term. That is why we must seek to understand the hard truths.
May God bless you richly with a deeper understanding and experience of Himself.
Sam
I have no problem with SIN.Sin is good..
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