Very interesting post, though I shall only answer question 4:

What should Christians do to be "salt and light" in this area?

I think that Christians need to seperate themselves from the world. Sadly, many girls' attitudes have become, "I should not have to change the way I dress because the GUY has a problem [with lust]." Meaning, they are not willing to change because they think that the problem is with the guy. This directly contradicts Paul the Apostle, who, in regards to eating, said, "It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall." Romans 14:21

I think that all Christians, male and female, need to break away from the culture in regards to dress and should, in all things, be modest. This includes men as much as women. I am a bit nervous when I see Christian guys, for whatever reason, wearing tight, pink shirts. (Usually, I would imagine, trying to be funny--though it's becoming a fad.) The early church has very interesting thoughts on the subject, though sadly I do not have the quote in front of me.
Nathan Sheets | Homepage | 09.07.05 - 12:56 pm | #

I would definately agree with the fact the classical feminity is vanishing. Number 1 most powerful witness to this is that women don't even expect men to open the doors for them anymore, or things like that. While that might seem more like a testament to the vanishing of classical gentlemenly-ness? it shows how guys view females. They view them as men. Just as you said. It does have something to do with the females :-D

God bless bro!

Marshall
Marshall Sherman | Homepage | 09.07.05 - 1:12 pm | #

1. No
2. Yes
3. Worse
4. As a young woman (age 28) and a mentor of teen girls, I think the number 1 reason for immodest dress is a poor self-image. We, as a society, have forgotten that we were made in the image of God and that we are more than animals.

Women don't normally dress for men. Women dress for other women. They feel a need to prove their worth, and since we have been taught that beauty and fame and fortune are valuable, we try to prove ourselves in those areas.

Most women who dress immodestly have a false idea of value and worth. Their hearts and minds are not set on things above but are set on things of the world. Until their hearts and minds change, their clothes will stay the same or get worse. They aren't taught to serve others in love and humility. They aren't taught to store up treasures in heaven. They're taught that worldly success is the only success. Since most of them don't think they have a chance at fame or fortune, they strive for beauty. It is a very futile effort and only serves to make them feel worse about themselves, but it's the only way their shown by most of the world.

Christians need to counteract that by teaching them to value the things that God values: honesty, integrity, humility, submission, service, love, compassion, kindness, gentleness, etc.
Mary | 09.07.05 - 1:28 pm | #

Well said, Mary. Your statement "Women don't normally dress for men. Women dress for other women" caught my eye--and I really wonder what I think of that. I think that there is a lot of truth, but I think that, from what I've seen, the skimpy outfits are meant to get guys' attention too...perhaps it can change, or perhaps it is safe to say, "Women don't dress for themselves [or for God], but they dress for other people," ?

Let me know!
Nathan Sheets | Homepage | 09.07.05 - 2:17 pm | #

I think Mary's meaning was that women are very sensitive/competitive regarding how their measure up to other women. They want to look as alluring and appealing as women they see on TV or magazine covers, etc... Correct me if I'm wrong, Mary.
Alex Jordan Harris | Homepage | 09.07.05 - 2:29 pm | #

1) Would you agree with Mr. Prager's assertion that women expose themselves in order to express their "femininity?"

I think there may be some truth to this, but my initial reaction is to say "no." As a girl, I actually feel most feminine when I do dress modestly, and when I dress less modestly, I feel uncomfortable, on display, and "dirty."

2) Would you agree that classical femininity is dead today? What is the most powerful evidence of this you have witnessed?

For the most part, yes. There really is no one thing that shows this, but rather a number of things. One is that men are no longer trained or expected to open doors for women. Another, that many women are just as crude and vulgar as some men. And the list goes on.

3) Do you think things are going to get worse or better in regards to women's dress?

I think things will be worse for a little while, but that they will gradually get better. I was pleased to notice that long skirts came back into style this summer and last winter I read an article that said that women's jeans are gradually moving away from the low-cut fad.

4) What should Christians do to be "salt and light" in this area?

One of the most obvious actions, of course, is for Christian women to dress modestly.
I agree with Mary when she says that "most women who dress immodestly have a false idea of value and worth." One step that women can take to be " "salt and light" in this area" is to reach out to those girls who dress immodestly and let them know their worth in God's eyes.
Adrielle | 09.07.05 - 3:48 pm | #

I have to agree with Mary and her comment saying that "Women don't normaly dress for men. Women dress for other women." I have seen it personaly and have also seen the affects of girls dressing to impress their fellow female peers.

First of all in Alex's last couple of posts he has been talking about how media is pushing the trends. This is a major factor in the way girls dress. Media is telling you what clothes are "cool" to wear and what clothes are "uncool" to wear. Fore example Abercrombie and Fitch, American Eagle and Arapostle are just a few of the many trendy places to shop. Since these are the places to shop, these are the places that dictate what people are going to buy. Today in science class we were talking about Abercrombie and Fitch and one girl said "I bet if A&F told teens to stop breathing there would be lots of dead kids in the next couple of days." These popular clothes stores are telling kids to wear short, tight skirts and blouses. The sad part is, is that kids do exactly what these shops are telling them to do. Now since shopping is more of a "sport" for most girls, they want to win which means buying cute clothes and showing up other girls in what they wear. There are countless girls in my school that take this challenge. Its sad that I go to a Christian school where no one cares about what they wear as long as they look fashionable. Girls really do care more about what girls think of them rahter than guys, because they want to be popular and be excepted by the popular girls for their dress instead of who they really are. I know, I have tried to dress to impress popular girls to fit into the crowd. Through the past couple of years I have come to realize that I shouldn't be trying to impress other girls or guys, but try to impress the Lord with modest dress that will be pleasing to Him and that won't make my guy friends stumble.

As for the 3rd question...
Surprisingly I think it is getting better. The clothes stores are deffinatley not encouraging it, but rather the schools. Maybe its just Colorado Springs, but all of our major public school systems have been tighting up on the dress code. Even a couple of public schools have gone to uniforms! There are some schools that are stricter in dress code areas than our school is =(

This doesn't solve the problem though. It does not change girls attitudes about how they dress. Girls can still dress poorly outside of school...and they do. Our local news interviewed girls from Doherty Highschool. Some of them were swearing about how they hated the new enforcment and how girls need an outlet to express themselves. Girls have to buy whole new wardrobes because they have nothing to meet the dress code. I think we as Christians need to set an example for our fellow peers. One obvious way is to dress modestly. Girls may say "we can't because the clothes stores don't make modest clothes that are cute." Trust me, I know there are clothes that are modest...I have
Lauren Hammerstrom | 09.07.05 - 4:08 pm | #

Sorry my comment got cut of.
I was saying that I have found clothes that are modest, yet they don't make me look like a slob or a masculine. You may have to look a little harder, or quite looking in the places you have previously gone to. Its possible! If you are a girl and are reading this I challenge you to dress modestley to please the Lord our God and Saviour!
Lauren Hammerstrom | 09.07.05 - 4:14 pm | #

I really appreciated Mr. Prager's article. It had excellent points and good analysis. Boldly stating the causes of immodesty (and the problems with it) is a great way for Christians to be salt and light in this area. So is setting an example by dressing modestly ourselves.

Another thing we need to do is explain why modest, feminine clothing is actually better than the alternative. If we show the problems with immodesty, we also have to show the benefits of modesty. We have to fill the void of sin with the superiority of the promises of God.
Karen Kovaka | 09.07.05 - 4:30 pm | #

First of all, I'd like to say thanks for this blog I really enjoyed the articles I've read so far. Hans turned me on to it today.
Now to answer the first question:
Yes, women are grasping at the only means left to state to the world that, "Yes, I am a woman." But more so than this they are dressing this way to get special attention from others. I defiantly agree with Mary when she said, "Women don't normally dress for men. Women dress for other women." I went to public school back in 5-7th grade before my parents realized that they should be homeschooling. In the public schools there is an immense amount of pressure from other women to look better then the next. Women can be very mean. In the schools you are judged by what you wear and how you wear it, and to be an outcast is one of the worst feelings in the world. Women dress for acceptance. It is one of the strongest characteristics that God gave us. When most of these women do not feel accepted at home they must feel accepted at school, which means they must fit in.
Another reason I agree with Mr. Prager's statement is this: They have absolutely no reason not to. It is the sad, but honest truth.
As for the second question:
No, classical femininity is not dead yet. There is still a glimmer of hope.
For the third:
I believe it will get better. I must admit I really enjoy watching the trends and shopping. Looking at the clothing the expensive designer's are marketing, a more conservative style is starting to enter the U.S. I also believe it works like a pendulum. It has gone so far one way that people are longing for the classic styles of "back when" and those are the things the designers are starting to give. (For you fashion un-conscious men: fashions start with designers and enter the flow within the next year.) Another place we can find hints at is tv shows. Many of them are beginning to dress more conservatively. You can only go so far in undressing, and culturally this is about as far as I believe we will really ever get.

~Ashleigh
Ashleigh | 09.07.05 - 4:35 pm | #

The best line in that post was "as a male I am turned on, while as a man I am turned off[.]" That is SO true. I find revealing clothing at times attractive, dirty, sinful, appealing, and wrong -- sometimes all at the same time.

Girls, we guys have enough trouble...please don't tempt us with your bodies.

Awesome post, Brett.
Cody Herche | Homepage | 09.07.05 - 5:42 pm | #

Nathan, Alex answered your question pretty well for me. Guys in general have a reputation for being more competitive, but it's different for women. Guys compete, declare a winner, get over it, compete again, declare a winner, get over it. Girls compete and never give up and never forget who's beaten them in the past and get catty and vicious. It's more passive-agressive. Women know that men will react to their clothing choices, but even trying to get a man's attention still usually has more to do with competing with other women than attracting a man. "I had to turn down 5 guys to the prom." "Did you see him checking me out?" It's a constant battle.
Mary | 09.07.05 - 6:25 pm | #

Interesting, Mary. Thanks!
Nathan Sheets | Homepage | 09.08.05 - 1:30 pm | #

1) Would you agree with Mr. Prager's assertion that women expose themselves in order to express their "femininity?"

I would agree to the point that they are expressing society's definition of "femininity"

2) Would you agree that classical femininity is dead today? What is the most powerful evidence of this you have witnessed?

I would say that, for the most part, this is true. There are still those that hold honor and modesty (for both of the sexes) in high esteem - your family is a prime example of that. However, society is in direct conflict with modesty - for both men and women. I mean, come on, what's the point of a guy wearing pants if they hang below his rear?

3) Do you think things are going to get worse or better in regards to women's dress?

This is a dependent variable. It depends, mainly, on what we as Christians do to resolve the issue.

4) What should Christians do to be "salt and light" in this area?

1. Set the example. We need to start in the church and show our sisters in the faith that modesty is not a suggestion - it's a command. "Honor your body...Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?"

2. Move for societal reform in the area. If we can SHOW that modesty works and can make a good case for it, then maybe society could make a U-turn on its downward spiral.
David Ketter | Homepage | 09.09.05 - 6:40 pm | #

First off, I want to commend you and your brother for what you are doing with this blog. It is what we as christians have needed for so long...a wake up call.

2) Would you agree that classical femininity is dead today? What is the most powerful evidence of this you have witnessed? I agree to the point that it is no longer nationally or internationally practiced. There are a few circles and areas where it is still in evidence. NCFCA is one of those. One thing the church has done is captured admirably by John and Stasi Eldredge in their recent book for women "Captivating" "The church has not been a big help here. (talking about helping girls to become women and to be femine) "No, that's not quite honest enough. The church had been part of the problem. Its message to women has been primarily 'you are here to serve. That's why God created you: to serve. In the nursery, in the kitchen, on the various committees, in your home, in your community.' Seriously now - picture the women we hold up as models of femininity in the church. They are sweet, they are helpful, their hair is coiffed; they are busy, they are disciplined, they are composed, and they are tired." This attitude of the church as impressed upon our generation the idea that women are to be workhorses and also they need to be beautiful at all times.

3) Do you think things are going to get worse or better in regards to women's dress? I think that it will get worse because the church is not doing anything about teaching young girls and women about how to dress. Our family has some friends who's 14 year old son doesn't want to go to youth group or church because as he put it "It's hard to focus on worshiping God when the girl in front of you is wearing a mini skirt and a see through blouse" As a church I think we need to be teaching young girls how to dress modestly but still "cute" as well. I laughed at the part where it said "A young woman who wore a dress or even a skirt and blouse to a college, let alone high school, class would probably be considered stranger by her peers than one who wore a see-through top." Because I just bought two very pretty skirts for school, and wore one to my college classes today.

I don't want to sound condemming to the church, but I think we need to clean up our act, and tell young women today that just because what the commercials say is fashionable doesn't mean that you have to buy it. Or that being femine doesn't mean working your fingers to the bone in service to the church or your husband or family. However, I also don't want to hold up Proverbs 31 as the complete best example either. Think about it, when does "The Proverbs 31 Woman" rest, or relax?

Thanks Brett!
Margaret Dow | 09.12.05 - 6:45 pm | #

Even before I finished reading all of the comments, I felt compelled to agree that women dress to impress other women. Another jealousy problem that needs to be dealt with.

Gentlemen: I would like to offer you a quick hint. A problem I see today among young men is most treat modest girls like sisters. I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing. I appreciate it when they treat me like one of the guys. But I think young Gents need to be more aware of not only "opening doors" for the ladies, but protecting and encouraging them in their femininity. Would it be too much to suggest that guys who are “with it” enough to be able to treat girls as just friends still need to remember that they shouldn’t discuss football scores with her all the time? ;) A little “Pride and Prejudice” is good every once in a while.

I welcome your comments…Thanks for letting me ramble…maybe I need to start a blog…
Christina Emmons | 10.01.05 - 11:41 am | #

Excellent! I linked to it on my blog.
Crystal Paine | Homepage | 11.22.05 - 1:34 pm | #

First of all, to Alex and Brett, I think that what you guys are doing on this blog is totally awesome. and I also want to say that this was a great Post. The whole thing about girls wearing a skirt to class being considered more strange by her peers than a girl wearing a see-through blouse, I totally agree with that! Skirts are very rare these days, and, in most cases, whenever you see a girl wearing a skirt it's a super short skirt.
I agree partially with the comment that girls dress for other women, not men. I think that girls dress competitively, not only to show up the other girl but to ultimately get the most attention from the guys.
As for question Number 4:
4) What should Christians do to be "salt and light" in this area?
For the guys, be the gentleman in a brotherly way that makes the girls enjoy being feminine (which I, personally, don't see how any girl could not enjoy being feminine) doing things such as letting the ladies go first, going out of your way to assist them (eg, opening the door, helping them with a heavy or large item), hanging their coat up for them, and key here, don't be afraid to express your care for them as a sister. I know that when guys do this for me, it really helps me and encourages me to be feminine.
For the girls, (this is getting kind of long so I'll try to cut it down) Simply dress modestly and show other girls that modest attire can be classy and not frumpy. And finally, we need to enjoy our femininity! It is a gift from God that was made perfectly for us! When we enjoy it and honour it then that will rub off on others.
God Bless,
Melanie | 11.27.05 - 12:00 pm | #

this post is a really good reminder, it makes a girl think what we wear before we put it on, and why we dress modestly. For me, dressing modestly is a must, i must because it is what God has told me to do, and 2 because like someone said ...as a girl i must look out for my brothers in christ, and consider them and what they are going through when they see women dressing imodestly. Hope that made sense, but i really enjoyed getting something out of this post. :-)
bri-hannah's friend | 12.10.05 - 11:15 pm | #

I am comment on teh sister who wore a skirt to class... BRAVO...but uh myself I'm already considered strange and I really do not like to draw more attention to myself....I am an incoming freshman and Im starting in JUly...yah the summer semester also known (among my young brothers) as the close your eyes semester...I think that I would like to wear a skirt but I know that in the place in which I live NYC ...I will already be drawing attention to myself as well one of the few and far btwn who are covered..but wHAT i dont understand is WHAT EXactly is femininty...I dont see how me wearing a regular shirt and pants with flowery print is not feminine... I mean Cmon Wats the big deal... So long as im covered...Someone please explain to me about this stuff...
email me, check out one of my blogs...my aim is Kayluck451 but youll have to tell me how you heard of or i might not respond
Sarah Francois | Homepage | 06.14.06 - 10:12 am | #

I have to agree with Margaret in some areas. I feel the same way. Our society tells us how to dress and how to act to allure men..but then the church tells us that we need to be like a workhouse and like the Proverbs 31 women..that just does not make sense.

ok..moving on to answering the questions.

1. Would you agree with Mr. Prager's assertion that women expose themselves in order to express their "femininity?"

in some ways..yes and in others know..but for the most part no..the girls I know at school dress in a way to impress guys and get a guy to like them and also to upstage the preppy pretty girl at school who is most popular. they don't want to be considered a wallflower, so they buy a very revealing blouse and a mini skirt to make themselves feel better.

2.Would you agree that classical femininity is dead today? What is the most powerful evidence of this you have witnessed?

Not completely dead..but for the most part yes. When a guy opens a door for a woman in this day in age say at a public highschool..it's shocking. it's just not practiced anymore. Personally i like it when guys open the door for me at church. I feel feminine and I like it. I hate it at school, because guys are treating you like a man...beating up on you..saying crude jokes in front of you and never opening the door for you. Now I am not saying there are no gentleman at my public highschool, but for the most part there are very few.

(3.) Do you think things are going to get worse or better in regards to women's dress?

I think that they could get worse if fashion changes once again, but even at stores now there are layered shirts and long skirts. It is even the fashion.

(4.) Dress modestly and think "does this honor God before buying anything" and go shopping with girls that will encourage you to dress modestly.
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