1. Yes, it has definitely caused a lot of unanticipated changes in society, including loss of power. Women and men are now competing against each other and, with the help of technology, against everyone else in the world. Instead of making us stronger, I'm afraid it's made us all weaker.

2. No. I think it's a subconscious expression of powerlessness and confusion. Because women aren't sure what their roles are or where they fit in, they have lost their sense of identity and purpose. In an effort to "find themselves" (for lack of a better concise description), they try whatever means possible to figure out who they are and where they belong.

3. I think Mr. Prager is wrong in saying that sexual harassment laws aren't applied equally to women. Sure, there are women who get away with it, but there are also men who get away with it. It's not the laws that are bad, it's society's eagerness to make people pay for "wrongs", and that's what causes them to be used improperly. Unfortunately, I think the laws are very necessary because they substitute for parents' responsibility to teach their children to respect themselves and others. While I would love it if parents as a whole would start doing their job, we need something to protect people in the mean time.

4. I'm not sure naive is the best way to describe it. They are definitely confused and lost about priorities and purpose.

5. Somewhat, I guess. But remember that I don't think women dress for the primary purpose of attracting men.
Mary | 09.09.05 - 10:09 am | #

1) Absolutely. They are made to compete against men who don't have to give birth to children and such. As Doug Phillips said, man's curse was to work the ground; woman's curse was pain in childbirth. When's the last time you saw a man bearing woman's curse? How about the last time you saw a woman bearing man's curse? Women who trade their God-given roles for male roles are essentially bearing both curses. And it's kinda hard to compete with men in that situation. :)

2) Yes. I think some of it is calculated. I mean, how can you wear an immodest top and NOT KNOW that it is immodest?

3) There should be no double-standard. Either apply it to both or repeal it.

4) I think not. Again, how can you NOT know that something is immodest.

5) Yes. Kinda like flirts. They are only attracting other flirts. If they married one, they would be unhappy, as the person would continue to flirt.
SecDef | Homepage | 09.09.05 - 10:32 am | #

I'd certainly agree that among some women naivete is behind a lot of immodest clothing. Many girls and women dress immodestly in order to appear stylish. Being provocative is a secondary issue. Though they've heard that men are 'visual,' they do not fully understand what the term means (which is understandable). There are many girls who do not realize the effect the clothing has on men.
Karen K | 09.09.05 - 3:56 pm | #

Mary: Mr. Prager seemed to think that inequality occurs when women are allowed to create a sexually charged environment by "showing sex," whereas men are prosecuted if they "talk sex."

Did you catch that distinction? I don't think Mr. Prager was saying women aren't prosecuted for sexual advances (verbal or phsycial) but rather for immodesty, which isn't normally considered.

With that clarified, do you think it would be a good idea to apply sexual harassment laws "equally" by prohibiting excessively immodest dress?

Interested in hearing your thoughts.
Brett Harris | Homepage | 09.09.05 - 5:11 pm | #

1) Would you agree with Mr. Prager that the elimination of women's traditional roles have left them less powerful? Why or why not?

Most definitely. I would also say that it has hurt our culture. If women are not in the home teaching their children strong morals and encouraging their husbands, you have immorality in society and a much-higher divorce rate. Protectress of Society is a rather honorable role. :)

2) Do you think immodest dress is an expression of power for some women? Do you think that this is calculated or subconscious? Why or why not?

It's an expression of weakness more than anything. If a woman feels the need to degrade herself in such a way, well, it must be weakness. I think that in many cases it isn't calculated or subconscious, at first. It's just the trend and society digs trends. After awhile, they become attached to it.

3) Do you agree with Mr. Prager's that we should eliminate all sexual harassment laws (except those prohibiting threats) or apply them equally to women? Why or why not?

I understand the intent of the laws but I think that it is not the place of the government to make that decision - keep it in the hands of the employer. If someone's in that situation, it's unfortunate but they can always resort to informing the boss or (if it is the boss), leaving the company. Hard, but that's the best for our civil government (and, thereby, us).

4) Are women naive when it comes to immodest dress? What are your thoughts?

It would be naive to think that any woman is totally oblivious to the immodesty. One subconsciously knows what is immodest but some just have the nerve to deny their God-given conscience in favor of the flesh.

5) Would you agree with the statement, "What you attract them with you attract them to," when applied to immodest dress?

As the result? I would say so. It might just account for the high divorce rates, etc. If a man is drawn by lust and not love, both have lost the game - big time.
David Ketter | Homepage | 09.09.05 - 7:02 pm | #

Brett, I guess I hadn't really thought of it that way. I understand what your saying, and I agree that women need to do their part in that arena. But I think that I agree with what David had to say on the issue. I'm a bit conflicted on the issue because I did justify the laws in my first post, but I think government needs to stay out of people's lives as much as possible.
Mary | Homepage | 09.10.05 - 7:23 am | #

When women harass

Here's another take on the harassment theme: when women dress immodestly, they are actually committing sexual harassment. And as women, they are immune from facing the legal or social consequences of doing so. Some people will do what they can get away with. Women are no different from men in this respect. Women can get away with doing this kind of harassment, some of them do it.

If you doubt this, ask yourself a question: If a man were to go to work exposing himself in ways that would not have been considered appropriate ten years ago, wouldn't he be considered to be harassing the women who had to work with him? All it would take is for one woman to say it was unwelcome behavior on his part. However, nobody usually cares if a man considers a woman's behavior, including her dress,unwelcome. As the article points out, though, woe unto the man who is accused of staring. At some time in the future, we may have equal rights for men. Until then, women can harass with impunity.
Two Pi | 09.11.05 - 5:21 pm | #

Two Pi: Excellent point. I think that is what Mr. Prager was getting at.
Brett Harris | Homepage | 09.11.05 - 7:07 pm | #

4) Are women naive when it comes to immodest dress? What are your thoughts?

I think that a lot of Christian girls just dress that way because everyone else does, a friend complained that they couldn’t find anything other than skintight jeans, but many do know better. I absolutely love shopping and think we can still look cute and fashionable even though we aren’t wearing the alluring clothes of models.

Another reason why we shouldn’t wear such clothes is because of the verse in Proverbs that says, “She does him good ALL the days of her life.” Not just when they’re married, but even before meeting her husband the “virtuous woman” is benefiting him. Although it might not seem like it now, everything we do affects our future relationship with our spouse. I don’t know about you, but I doubt my wearing suggestive clothing would honor my husband.

According to Proverbs a woman is also the crown of her husband. A crown declares to all that the man is a king; ergo, the wife is the one that makes everyone else realize that her husband is someone special. Likewise, the king picks what type of crown he wears, so my mom always tried to dress in a way that would please my father. Of course, not out of fear that he’d discard her =) but simply out of wanting to make him feel valued.

As a woman, I believe we really don’t get to dress for ourselves in mind. I wear the clothes I like (don’t get me wrong, I shop and buy what I think is cute), but I think we should always bear in mind that our appearance mirrors our inward state and casts a powerful reflection on the Lord and our husbands.
Elizabeth | 09.16.05 - 11:31 pm | #

I agree with you, Elizabeth 100%. Great post.

4) I had always been told to dress modestly and be ladylike, etc., but I don't think it was until I heard one of my brothers in Christ talk about how disgusted he was by a certain girl because of the provocative way she dressed and behaved that I began to think twice about what I wore.
I think girls can definitely be naive about what they wear. Its much easier to make sure our clothes pass today's fashion standards than to make sure they are not stumbling blocks.
Hannah | Homepage | 09.26.05 - 2:36 pm | #

I think the point about female to male sexual harrassment is a good one. Women either don't realize the affect provacative dress has on men, or they do it deliberately for the power it gives them.

As a wife and mother of a son, I am sick and tired of society blaming males for everything. Sexual harrassment is wrong. But it is as wrong for women as it is for men.
4HisChurch | Homepage | 09.29.05 - 7:00 am | #

4) Are women naive when it comes to immodest dress? What are your thoughts?

Yes, I do think that women are naive about the impact their clothes have on the world around them. Clothes speak, whether you like it or not.

I think a lot of what drives a woman to dress immodestly is the desire to be loved and noticed. Our society today preaches that the only way to get noticed is to be "hot", or sexually attractive. And, sadly, many Christian girls are buying into this idea. I have a Christian friend who told me she loves to wear tight clothes because all of the guys at her work like it. A comment like that blows me over. I don't believe that looking "hot" should be in a Christian girl's mindset, but sadly enough it is in many girls' minds. I think that in desiring to have a beautiful romance, girls wrongly think that the only key to that is putting forth a sexual image.

Sometimes I myself wonder if that IS the only way to attract a guy, to look hot. But if that is the case, then all guys are messed up and you wouldn't want to be married to any of them (this isn't true but sometimes you feel like it's true!). I do know, however, that there are guys out there who are repulsed by immodesty and are seeking a young woman to marry who dresses femininely and discreetly. My brother is one of the very few guys I know who is looking for and having a hard time finding such a girl.

I'm thinking about writing a book on the subject of godly femininity and modesty. Thanks, Bret and Alex for posting this great article...it adds to my pile of resources on this subject.
In Christ, Jennifer
Jennifer Weston | 10.19.05 - 11:30 am | #

I'm not going to answer the questions as of now, but mostly comment on something.

I one time had to move a bull, weighing just over 2000 pounds, from one pasture to another. He wasn't altogether to interested in listening to me, and I didn't have my whip with me that day (when I do, the noise is enough to direct them where I wish), so I grabbed a bucket full of food, figuring that I could 'attract' him with that.

The beast couldn't control his desire for that food, and knocked me over, nearly stepping on me and surely killing me, (2000 pounds is a lot of weight, and he wouldn't even notice that he'd stepped on me) just to get to that beloved bait.

I didn't want that kind of attention from him, but it's what I got.

Sometimes, that's how it is with women and their clothing. They have absolutely no clue just how strong the raging desire is, and of course, men today are just 'kidults' and think life is all about having fun.

So they do. I think immodesty is the greatest cause of rape in this country. In fact, I'm sure immodesty is the biggest cause of rape in the history of the world.

*sigh*

Well, I'm not very long winded today, so I'll stop here.

~ God Bless!

John.
John Robert Moore | Homepage | 11.17.05 - 4:57 pm | #

It has been said that we should dress for the job we hope to have..purely a business intent, sure, but I believe it can also be said for how young ladies dress. If a young lady dresses with consideration for others, and respect for herself and the Lord, she would be much more modest. Ladies of all ages need to be mindful of the effect of their clothing on their brothers in Christ.

The same can be said for young men, keeping in mind that young ladies have hormones and thought lives too (shocker!), and what young men wear can stumble them.
MiddleAgedMomma | 11.26.05 - 7:28 am | #

i will be honest and say that I didn't really read any of the comments, or really any of the post. i just read the questions and as far as women being naive about immodest dress- that is a MAJOR no. Women know exactly how they dress and the effect that it has on the majority of men. They feel powerful when they do dress immodestly because then they feel they can manipulate guys to do whatever the girl wants and to give her all the guys attention. Not only that, but many girls see themselves as superior to the other girls who don't dress as provocative as them.
Nikki | 11.27.05 - 12:10 pm | #

nikki; i dont think that is absolutely true, i think the fact that guys start looking and noticing how you dress hits you sometime between jr high-highschool. (or sometwhere around there) For me i didnt start thinking about how my clothing could affect a guy until i was in like 8th grade. but thats jmo . :-
bri-hannah's friend | 12.10.05 - 11:22 pm | #

I think it's very possible that many girls are naive about how men think. many girls know or think of their top half when considering modesty but may not have considered that many men can be just as tripped up by clothing that is two tight or revealing on their legs/bottoms. some are trying to attract men, but don't realize that the type of men they will attract are not going to turn out to be the type of men who they really want.

I've told many girls my "fishing" analogy. if you were going fishing you might have different types of bait, some bait say, earthworms are good for catching fish that's fit to eat, like trout. some bait, like stinky catfood, is good for catching bottom feeding fish like catfish. Now if you WANT to catch trout you don't put catfood on the hook and drag it on the bottom of the river.
If you want to "catch" a good God-fearing young man then your "bait" has to be the actions, attitudes, and modest dress of a good God-fearing young lady. likewise if you want to catch a "bottm feeder" then you dress like stinky catfood.

these were young ladies who already professed to be christians they were just following the actions/advice of their public schooled peers. NOone had taught them that Christian young men don't let themselves be captivated by the same sorts of things that the other boys are. They were mindlessly following the "herd". when they finally put some thought into the sort of people they wanted to have as potential spouses, they began to look at what those people would want in a potential spouse.

I think that one reason women are so immodest these days is that they don't even think about it.
modesty isn't something that most people discuss or even consider. we're drug around by fashon like a bull with a ring in it's nose. we don't even stop to consider if the fashon has any style or beauty. just weather or not some popular person was wearing it.

Mrs. Nehemiah
Mrs. Nehemiah | 07.02.06 - 10:06 pm | #