The Artest suspension is ridiculous. In fact, if it stands through the arbitration, I can see it going to court. But from a more practical perspective, Stern has just given fans even more of an incentive to misbehave. Taunt the visiting players of one of your closest rivals when they visit your building until they go after the fans in the stands. Bang! Arch-rival star player lost for the season. Nice work, Stern. Asshole. Pushy, sushi-gobbling asshole.
Joe | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 5:13 am | #

can we assume that the answer to the GISG stumpers are one word? would it ruin the game to let us know how many words? dunno.

moral: you are a barrelhead.

dan majerle would be a great 5-point shot guy. they'd keep him well past his prime in my version of the nba just for that purpose. he'd be the edgar martinez of the nba. -->
pb dot c | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 10:44 am | #

also, um - artest attacked a completely innocent bystander. yeah.

buh bye.
pb dot c | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 11:00 am | #

The Artest suspension is ridiculous only if he's not brought up on criminal charges as well. I can forgive Artest for going after the guy who nailed him with the beer. But in his rage, he walloped the wrong dude and that's assault, plain and simple. I applaud the mealy-mouthed Stern. He has to do something, ie. "send a message" to players; what else, besides suspending them, can he do -- especially when one of them commits a criminal act on live TV? Now I hope they're able to arrest some of those animal fans. My favorite, besides the two chubby twins, is this one guy who's tossing whatever he can find onto the court. He runs out of cups and hot dog trays and he's desperately searching the aisles looking for more ammo. Knucklehead.
cW | 11.22.04 - 11:36 am | #

word cW
pb dot c | 11.22.04 - 11:59 am | #

image 15 = jam session
pb dot c | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 12:00 pm | #

Good job by PBdotC. We got a tight one here.

crsmal - 2
joe m. - 2
pb dot c - 2
sponsor - 2
chris b. - 1
sita - 1
hans | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 12:05 pm | #

cW, two things:

1. Did he really "assault" that kid who he mistakenly thought threw the bottle? Did he even take a swing at him? No. He shoved the shit out of him. A mistake, yes, and unfortunate, but that kid was laughing and pointing at Artest after Artest got hit in the face with a beer, which came on teh heels of Artest getting a face shove and a towel thrown at him. That kid deserved a shakedown. He isn't "an innocent bystander." Sure, maybe Artest was on his way to putting that kid in the hospital if 20 people hadn't surrounded him and grabbed him, but the fact is he merely shoved the kid around. Maybe shoved some sense into him.

2. I am not saying no suspension, I am just saying a large, punishing suspension. Just not the whole year. Although it may be good for ARtest to have some time off.
hans | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 12:28 pm | #

fucking rednecks?
a-holes
idiots
morons...sure
but, rednecks?

i have come to expect a higher level of discourse from the ol' bungle.

i am surprised you have not come around on this artest thing. it was simply the wrong thing to do going into the stands.

i have had beer spilled on me at a college party, and even in a low-inhibition drunken state i did not go after the person b/c i was not sure who had done it. sure i was pissed / livid, but so what.

professional athletes should know better and show restraint - there is simply nothing good that can come from a trip into the stands.

as far as the so-called fans are concerned, they need to be punished fully and severely - sending a clear message to them that boorish behavior will not only cost them their right to attend games, but will result in JAIL TIME.

and with respect to the 'back in the day' argument, get over it, that was then this is now.
deion | 11.22.04 - 12:50 pm | #

I would also point out that the product of Artest's going into the stands was mercifully harmless. What if he had been stabbed? What if (insert scenario here)?

When he went into the stands he left all control behind and the situation became extremely dangerous. It was luck, pure blind luck, that true disaster was averted.
pb dot c | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 12:57 pm | #

I'm really surprised what an apologist you're being, Bungman.

1. Laughing and pointing is not a crime. That fan, while undoubtedly an asshole, WAS innocent and he was assaulted. It's not up to the Lone Ranger Ron Artest to mete out justice on boorish fans. When he left the court, Artest broke a rule all pro athletes know: that you never go into the stands. When he went after that dude, he committed a crime, straight up. I understand adrenaline and rage, believe me, but no matter what, you've got to be responsible for your actions.
2. I think a season-long suspension is appropriate and, to be honest, I wouldn't boo hoo if he was kicked out of the game forever.

Now, that being said, they -- I mean the D.A. and the cops -- really need to go after those freaking fans. The guy who nailed Artest should be nailed for assault and trying to incite a riot. He gets points for his aim though.

I totally agree with PB that it was only by chance that this didn't turn into something truly ugly. Larry Brown's hair could have been mussed too.
cW | 11.22.04 - 1:54 pm | #

You guys are racists.
hans | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 2:00 pm | #

Seriously, are we punishing for what COULD have happened, or what DID happen?

What COULD have happened is terrible.

What DID happen is that Artest got shoved in the face by another player, got a beer thrown in his face by a fan, that he shoved a fan around, and got punched in the back of the head a bunch of times by the fan who threw the beer on him.

Again, I am not completely in support of what Artest did; in an ideal world, he would have run into the locker room and called the police. But he's human, and he had what to me was a natural human reaction to being treated like something less than human.

Deion, if you had just been shoved in the face and had a towel thrown at you, and THEN got that beer intentionally thrown IN YOUR FACE from a direction where a bunch of drunks were pointing and laughing at you, would you still just do nothing? If so, I guess that makes you a bigger man than Artest, but I can't blame him for going nutto.

I can't believe this is all about Artest and holding athletes to a higher standard. It should be about the redneck fans in Detroit who treated these players like circus animals.

P.S. I agree with you, Deion, about jailing those fans. But I don't know what the "back in the day" argument is.
hans | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 2:06 pm | #

if i try to kill someone with my bare hands i get prosecuted for 'attempted murder,' not for being a bad street fighter.
a million felons | 11.22.04 - 2:44 pm | #

Did Artest try to kill someone? No. Did he throw a punch while he was in the stands? No. He shoved a guy onto the ground, albeit violently.

Until I see some justice meted out on those fans, I am going to forgive Artest and I am going to wonder why all we can talk about is Artest's lack of self-control. I'll grant you that he's a loon, and that he played a role in this episode. BUT HE WAS NOT THE MAIN STORY. The main story is the complete breakdown of security, and the dangerous, widespread misbehavior of the fans.

I don't like Artest. I think he's a nut and I hope he gets help. But Stern's suspension ("It was a unanimous decision. 1-0" -- OK, cowboy) is too harsh. And Stern barely mentioned the fans in his press conference. I guess he knows who butters his bread, and he wants that butter, no matter what kind of dirtbags are providing it.
hans | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 3:00 pm | #

Deion has to be on the side of the fans.

His behavior at sporting events makes him a prime candidate for an ass-kicking by an athlete.
Big Jim Lang | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 3:42 pm | #

Hans is right on this one. The rest of you are wrong.
Joe | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 3:47 pm | #

How do you know what Artest was trying to do? A D.A. could easily prosecute him for any number of crimes.

I'm going to put this bluntly: Your defense of Artest is lame, wrong, and stubborn. Give it up.
a million felons | 11.22.04 - 5:40 pm | #

And nobody but nobody is defending the fans.

The wheels of justice turn slowly and people will be prosecuted.
a million felons | 11.22.04 - 5:42 pm | #

Thanks for your opinion of my opinion; I feel the same way about yours. Let a D.A. prosecute Artest. We can have that argument another day. Today we are talking about the NBA's reaction to the events.

And remember, I'm not the one saying I know what Artest was trying to do -- you're the one who compared it to attempted murder. And how many guys who get in street fights where they don't throw a punch get prosecuted for attempted murder?

Also remember that the only people he punched were guys approaching him on the court, and we all agree those guys needed to get dropped. Because they had crossed the line. Well, I argue that throwing a cup of beer in someone's face is also crossing the line. And like I said, it's unfortunate that he attacked the wrong fan, but he did not attempt to kill that fan. He just shoved him around. I guess Artest owes that fan an apology, but I think Artest and his teammates are entitled to about 2,000 personalized apologies from the Pistons fans first. And that guy, who revealed his snake-like soul by laughing at the cup to the face incident, by joining the ugly mob at least in spirit, should be part of that line. In a physical confrontation of many against few, initiated by the many, I am usually going to align myself with the few.

The wheels of justice turn slowly except in the NBA offices, where there is a one-man rush to judgement and a sentence is issued overnight without hearing the opinions of those on trial. And this sentence is issued by a man who answers to the league owners and not the players.
hans | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 6:50 pm | #

Artest is an Artiste, and now he has plenty of time to be a record producer; not just off the month he requested but, a little extra so he doesn't need to feel rushed.

Moral of story:
A good wife on earth is worth 72 virgins in heaven.

And it is why we are all happy daily to follow and folly with Verbungle.Com and none of us bother to even read that stinking sinkhole of conservative republican nothingness Verbarrelhead.com
Sponsor~ of the other guy's si | 11.22.04 - 7:06 pm | #

I'm not "comparing" it to attempted murder. I'm trying to point out a basic fact about criminal court. DA's go after defendants. They don't say "Oh, he didn't succeed so we won't prosecute."

Do you know what regular people who attack other people get prosecuted for?

How about: ASSAULT FIRST DEGREE
(B Felony, eff. 11-1-96)
(Depraved Indifference)
PENAL LAW 120.10(3)
(Committed on or after Sept. 1, 1967)

Do you think it matters whether they were successful? All that matters is INTENT.

Speaking of regular people. Regular people endure ignominity each day and when their day is over they don't retreat to the NBA Players' fantasy world.

.pdf (from state of NY) ----->
a million felons | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 7:40 pm | #

And since you have decided that you are only talking about the NBA's reaction (news to me) let me say this: This is out of the NBA's hands now.

It's going into the real system not the NBA's bullshit system where people like Kermit Washington get off basically free for almost killing another man. And where people like Artest get martyr status for committing criminal acts in full view of millions.
a million felons | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 7:44 pm | #

The initial post was about Stern's punishment. That's pretty clear. Most of this thread was about the merits of Stern's punishment. We had not addressed what criminal charges Artest, the other players, and the fans might face. If you want to discuss that, I am not qualified to make a judgement. I'm sure there will be able lawyers on both sides to argue their cases persuasively. I venture to say that launching a projectile in someone's face is a criminal act as well, and possibly one that helps legally justify Artest's response. If we're going to play barroom lawyers, at least send me the Michigan assault statute and not the one from NY. But following the NY law you linked, I'd still say there's no way a jury could find Artest guilty of First Degree Assault in regards to the kid in the stands.

Did he meet any of these requirements?

1) Did he cause serious physical injury?
2) Did he engage in conduct that created a grave risk of death?
3) Did he evince a depraved indifference to human life?

I'm gonna say 0 for 3.

As for intent, if he really wanted to fuck that kid up (meaning the kid in the stands), why didn't he just punch him right in the face, like he did with Fat Kid? As to Fat Kid, now THAT was an assault -- but I think a lawyer could easily demonstrate self-defense, considering the chaos that was unfolding.

The thrown beverage was the spark that ignited the riot. Legal issues aside, I think on a human to human level, the fans are the most egregious.
hans | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 8:27 pm | #

750.397 Mayhem.
Sec. 397.

Mayhem—Any person who, with malicious intent to maim or disfigure, shall cut out or maim the tongue, put out or destroy an eye, cut or tear off an ear, cut or slit or mutilate the nose or lip, or cut off or disable a limb, organ or member, of any other person, and every person privy to such intent, who shall be present, aiding in the commission of such offense, shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 10 years, or by fine of not more than 5,000 dollars.
joe | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 9:14 pm | #

AP Sez:

If charges are filed, they probably would be for assault and battery, a misdemeanor that could bring a three-month jail sentence, said David Gorcyca, the Oakland County prosecutor. The only possible felony charge could be against the person who hurled a chair into the crowd.
a million felons | 11.22.04 - 9:41 pm | #

OK, I just watched this again on my DVR so I could get a thirteenth look at it and see if maybe you guys were right.

Verdict: You are still wrong.

Artest didn't just randomly attack an innocent fan. He got hit in the face, sat up, and looked in the direction of the projectile. There was Innocent Little Mickey, jumping up and down and pointing as if he had just hit a game winning three pointer. It is perfectly understandable that Artest would think this guy was the thrower. Now I am not saying this young fellow deserved to be assaulted, but I don't think a good honest shoving was out of order.
hans | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 9:43 pm | #

"The thrown beverage was the spark that ignited the riot."

THE SPARK THAT IGNITED THE RIOT?

if artest does not go 'nanas after being hit by the drink, do we have a riot on out hands? certainly not. do other fans start winging stuff at artest? i doubt it. do fans start winging crap at the rest of the pacers? certainly not.

of course, you can take the argument back a step, and state that if the FAN (singular) did not throw the cup there is no riot. True, but if you want to use a spark-ignition-conflaguration analogy, it seems clear that the FAN and the thrown cup were the fuel (without which there could be no fire), but artest's actions provided ignition.

"I think on a human to human level, the fans are the most egregious."

the FAN (singular) who threw the first cup is the #1 CREATIN when talking about things on a human to human level. No question there.

the FANS (plural) behavior became egregious after artest and friends went into the stands. am i saying it was JUSTIFIED or EXCUSABLE for the fans to go nuts b/c players had gone into the stands? NO. But, the players going into the stands unleashed the mob mentality. And, I am far from an expert in Mob Psychology, but I do remember from Psych 101 that it is a very scary phenomenom. Just think LA Riots, NY Blackout of '76, Kent State, etc...

Nonetheless, you make the argument that artest was somehow JUSTIFIED or EXCUSABLE in going into the stands, and that is where you lose me.

And, on a human to human level when did two wrongs start making a right?

Especially when there is no way to be sure you are getting the right human.
deion | 11.22.04 - 10:52 pm | #

Ron Artest is human fuel.

Ron Artest, laying on his back after getting bitch-shoved, is a big stack of dynamite. But a stack of dynamite that clearly was not about to go off.

Throwing beer in Ron Artest's face in that situation is akin to throwing a match on a stack of dynamite.

And I don't share your opinion that perhaps there would be no additional beer throwers if Artest had turned the other cheek (again). Like you said, these things turn ugly fast, and you could see it in the eyes of the fans before Artest started his sprint up the stairs. They were loving it.

You do bring up an interesting point. Were Artest's actions justifiable? I don't know about legally justifiable, but was he morally justified in entering the seats? I say definitely yes. Was mauling the wrong fan justifiable? No, but I think it's completely understandable, even excusable. I know it's a fine line between these terms, but I think it's important to remember that Artest did not throw the first stone here. He was hit twice -- once hard by Wallace, and then once by the cup -- before he did anything remotely violent. And if you want to say he started the fight with his hard foul, I disagree wholeheartedly, especially because Wallace had fouled him hard moments earlier.

So Artest's behavior, to me, is understandable. The fans' behavior -- and not just the one who threw the first cup, but every coward who dumped tray after tray of refuse on the Pacers as they left the court -- is unconscionable.
hans | Homepage | 11.22.04 - 11:21 pm | #

you make a nice point equating artest w/ dynamite. given the circumstances i'll certainly say artest's actions were 'not surprising'.

i'll even admit that an argument can be made for 'understandable' - though i would not agree.

and, 'excusable' is an even bigger stretch.

but, 'justifable'??? morally or otherwise??? Let's just agree to disagree, and call it a day.
deion | 11.23.04 - 12:02 am | #

sissies.
joe | Homepage | 11.23.04 - 4:53 pm | #

white cat with pink nose .where my act???!!!!!pinkiee is his name. or petten pussy
Anonymous | 11.26.04 - 2:08 am | #

did you eat him tooo!!!
Anonymous | 11.26.04 - 2:08 am | #

find cat!!!!!
Anonymous | 11.26.04 - 2:09 am | #

All of the basketball talk on Verbungle "sours" me. I quickly breeze through those sections to greener pasteurs.
stumpjumper | 12.21.04 - 8:43 pm | #