Uhm, OK, Jesse? Having Obama pay Hillary money, for Hillary to pay back money that has been pledged to Hillary by private donors, I think is fine and proper.
Paying Hillary money to replace money she has loaned to herself?
Nah. Gunnah. Happn.
Hillary, playing the "blue collar worker" to Obama's "elite" has become tiresome.
She lent that money to herself, she can pay herself back.
The winner paying off the loser's debts is fairly traditional. Nothing unusual about it. Even in bitterly fought races with emotions running high. This includes paying back personal loans.
I would say -- and again, I credit the Salon article I mention at the start of my post for influencing my writing here, but once I read it, I realized I'd seen it happen in real life in various campaigns -- that if Clinton starts running attack ads against Obama at this point, those are less likely to be paid back now.
Everything from here forward is going to be looked at through the lens of, how it contributes to making possible a transition. But so long as reasonable people can agree it is making possible a transition, then it all will go forward. So long as she isn't trashing him, she should be okay. Look for her to run a lot of ads which are against McCain, or are building her up, running for her positions on things, not so much ads which are attacks.
Obama appointing Bill Clinton to the Supreme Court would be awesome.
First, I expect that he'd be really good on the Court, both in good opinions and being able to sway the court his way.
Second, the resulting coronary for Scalia: sweet!
Bill C. for the Court? Hmmm.
That has happened before in the USA. Former President William Howard Taft [1909-1913] was later appointed Chief Justice of the Supreme Court [1921-1930]. 
I didn't dontate to Obama for him to turn around and give it to the woman who has run the nastiest, RACIST campaign against another democrat in my lifetime.
NO. Not one fucking dime goes to pay off her debt. Let Bill run back to the oil sheiks and the Chinese for funds.
"3) She needs a major plank, perhaps health care,"
Considering how the Clintons already milked that one and blew it, I don't see where it would help.
Peoples propensity toward having short memories is truthiness.
WJC in the 'premes would be a hoot.
“1) Clinton needs her campaign debt paid off by Obama, so she leaves the campaign not owning anyone money. This includes her personal loans to the campaign. This part is simple. Clinton will fight and fight and fight, till Obama agrees. The winner paying the loser's debts is also fairly traditional.”
I would have no problem with him paying off the 10-15 million dollars in outstanding debt owed to vendors and regular people who offered services and are seeing their bottom line nut-kicked as they've been waiting 60, 90, 120, 180 days for payment.
But there's gonna be an issue with the idea of Obama's “small amounts” donor base seeing their money go to pay back the personal loans of a candidate who's made at least half of 109 million dollars in the last eight years.
Those were personal loans she (they?) made to the campaign and quite simply, if you've got that kind of money laying around to pump in 5-to-6 million dollars every couple of months as has been the case since February, it's kind of fucked up to force the other side to make penance and pay you back on it. Especially with funding being needed for what will be a bruising GE to come. You dipped into your own considerable personal fortune. That's a choice you made. This isn't making right the debts incurred against money donated by small donors with gas to buy and homes being foreclosed. This is re-balancing a multi-millionaire's checkbook.
And we're talking about a candidate who's married to the biggest funding rainmaker we've ever seen. No. Get that money back some other way. Write a book chronicling the campaign or something. Asking Gilligan to pay off Thurston Howell III and Lovey's self-incurred personal debts just doesn't make sense.
And the other deal-breaker is giving dime the first to pay off Mark Penn's bloated, gouging, absolutely un-earned money pit of a salary.
Also to say Hil turning down veep would affect Obama's chances of being assassinated is disingenuous.
Realpolitik dude. You can't figure the odds when you're assuming people play by "the rules".
And Bill on the Court would be a sweet thumb in the eye to the likes of Alito, Scalia and Roberts.
The bugaboo with that happening is the nasty issue of his disbarment over the relatively harmless lies about you-know-what.
Does a temporary disbarment preclude a seat on the SC?
LM - It wouldn't matter if there's an existing statute, the existing court would rule against it... unless the candidate is GOP.
LM,
Not me. The vendors should have known better. People in Ohio were complaining about not being paid and then people in PA. were also stiffed.
We're supposed to pay HIS salary? NO!!
Report: Mark Penn Thought Dem Primaries Were Winner-Take-All
By Eric Kleefeld - May 8, 2008, 9:25AM
With the Clinton campaign widely viewed as being on its last legs, staffers are now more free than ever to dish out some dirt on the many strategic blunders of Mark Penn.
The latest: At a strategy session last year, Penn reportedly said that a Clinton win in California would effectively wrap up the nomination by awarding her all of the state's 370 delegates.
As we all know, Democrats don't do winner-take-all primaries, but instead use a form of proportional representation that has been in force for about 20 years -- a fact that didn't seem to sink in with the Clinton campaign and their big-state strategy.
Really nothing but presidential whim and the Senate's willingness to confirm precludes a seat on the court.
Two things that give me pause about Bill Clinton on the court (and they may seem odd when taken together, but I'm still on my 1st cup of coffee):
1) his relatively advanced age. 61 may be the new 43, but I'd like to see someone on the court who is likely to be there for a few decades. Clinton's already had one heart attack, and unless he's drinking pure baby blood and bald eagle meat smoothies every morning like Dick Cheney, that probably signals a somwhat shorter life span than someone without such problems. Of course, $109 million will buy you a lot of preventative care...
2) Bill Clinton isn't exactly hostile to executive power. For my money, the worst thing about Roberts and Alito is their willingness to defer to the executive. The aggrandizement of the executive branch all out of it's intended proportion is a central reason why the lat seven years have been so consistently awful. I don't trust Clinton to be much of a brake on that trend, though I will admit that he seems to be a man who likes to wield power for its own sake and as such may be inclined to diminish the executive just because he can.
I don't think any of us who have made our necessarily small donations to the Obama campaign will cotton to the idea of suggesting to Barack that he pay 'shut up and go away' money in exchange for her dropping out of this race which she has lost anyway..
T0 HILLARY--the fat lady has sung already. It's over. It's over. It's over! You're pandering and babbling and you look as tired and senile as your ole buddy John McSwine.
Nice thoughts, Ol' Jesse, but probably not gonna happen (mostly). Harry Reid will not surrender the Seanate job willingly, and Obama has nothing to do with the internal organization of the Senate anyway. What I would like to see is the Edwards/Clinton health plan, but that is the job of the legislature, and I don't see Obama obstructing it.
What I did NOT like about Obama was his insistance that we could "play nice" with Republicans, a la Joe Lieberman (and we see what THAT got us, don't we?). But I suspect we will repeat 1936 and there will be only a few GOP senators left standing after November, so playing nice with them becomes irrelevant. Besides, Obama is a smart cookie; he will soon realize there is no compromising with the present GOP.
However, we've still got to win in November, and win big.
"Asking Gilligan to pay off Thurston Howell III and Lovey's self-incurred personal debts just doesn't make sense."
LM very funny... and a kernel of truth.
If this happens I doubt we will hear much about it or that the money will not be washed through a few accounts before it shows up. It really doesn't matter to anyone but us mortals.
Obama just hit the big show and things are a little different there... mostly because getting a Democratic President elected trumps everything. Anything else is immaterial. All the attendant BS about the Supremes and causes may happen but the real issue is to "wash that woman out of his hair." (Wow was that a tortured metaphor.)
The campaign debts to be payed would likely NOT include Mark Penn. *laughs*
They're more the staffers, people who printed up posters, booked hotel space, and so on.
Huffington Post -- an Obama stronghold, almost as much as the Great Orange Kos -- ran a post along these lines I was just reading, as well.
Paying the losers debts is fairly traditional. Including self-loaned debts. *shrugs*
The point is, to get the damn race over and get on with it.
As for President Clinton becoming Mr. Justice Clinton, there isn't any constitutional bar. You don't have to be an attorney. You simply have to be nominated by the President, and confirmed by the Senate. President Clinton's problem with the Arkansas State Bar association would no doubt be an issue, but, whatever. All he needs are 51 votes to be confirmed, and he can no doubt get them.
Clinton needs her campaign debt paid off by Obama
Anyone who can afford to pay off debts from their own substantial holdings, by definition does not need their debt paid off by a third party.
So, in essence, we're really talking about a bribe, not a charitable contribution.
I think 2) and 3) kind of meld together, in that for the Healthcare plank to be successful, it will need someone in the Senate(and the House) who has the knowledge and dedication to follow it through. I'd like to point out that that has been the case since before the 2006 elections, and it has been the case all along that POTUS is not in a position to create the necessary legislation - sure, the bully pulpit is a big help, but we're still talking about legislation.
Insofar a VP stuff, my limited understanding is that it's traditional that the other party candidates have at least some input.
I'd suggest there's more to it in regards to the pluses for Clinton of being VP than you've brough up - she'd also be insurance against attacks on Obama, at least from the right. "Wait, so once we kill O, SHE's the POTUS. Oh crap."
i played a clinton fundraiser in hollywood last month. one thing that struck me deeply (aside from the fact that there was one of my favorite exxes in the doo wop line) was the smug certainty of her inner circle folks that were there. debt? pshaw. she could retire that stuff in an afternoon. a lot of the hollywood crowd remember the clinton administration fondly. they made stupid money, but they were also courted and made to feel like they mattered. they probably miss the latter as much as the money. the overwhelming sense i got was that if hillary can't win this election she is perfectly fine with stealing it. she is damned near nixonian in her end justifies the means viewpoint along with her firm conviction that she is not only the best person for the job, she is the only person for the job. all through that weekend i was flashing on the pictures of the bushes pere et fils at the ranch in crawford while the recount fight was raging. they were sitting there smug and satisfied like they were knowing shit. turns out that they were knowing shit. the fix was in, they knew it. i got the exact same feeling from the clintonites. it makes me very uneasy. i don't like watching folks like them walking around with that look of they be knowing shit.
Kenga --
With regard to health care, I was talking first about letting Clinton have health care go her way as a plank in the Democratic PLATFORM.
Then second, have Obama once President, support the Clinton version (which she could introduce from the Senate).
Again, all of these are negotiating POINTS. You bring them up. Some you win, some you lose.
The only one I'm confident of her not getting out till she gets is the debt repayment. She simply can not afford to quit still owing all that money. It would mean President Clinton would be giving speeches for the next two years to retire her debt.
If the Obama campaign refuses to retire her debt, look for her to say FUCK YOU and simply not campaign on Obama's behalf, and to go on vacation after the stress of the campaign, making only infrequent appearances for Obama. Her supporters would get the message quickly, and Obama would very rapidly be in the fight of his life.
Minstrel Hussain Boy -
Team Obama isn't saying it's over, and I won't say it is over either.
The sense of entitlement you mention, well, I think that Team Clinton is not blind to reality. I don't see any realistic way for them to make the numbers work. On the other hand, as Speaker Pelosi just said, it's an election. It is still going on, and till it's over, it isn't over. Strange things happen in an election, ya know?
Do I think the Clinton's have it in them to steal an election? Sure. I also think the Obama's have that capacity. I hope both of them, frankly, if the chips were down, would do what it takes to beat McCain, to game the system legally. I'm sick of us getting our asses kicked.
The sense of entitlement... pride before a fall. *smiles*
If she gets her debt paid off, and a promise that President Clinton gets a SCOTUS seat, she's likely to put in the hours she needs to, in order to help him win. Team Clinton understands loyalty.
Going to breakfast. I'm hungry.
Um, folks, Bill is NOT going anywhere near the Supremes.
Fact #1--the biggie: HE IS NOT A JUDGE.
Fact #2--HE CAN'T BE ONE, HE LOST HIS ARKANSAS LICENSE.
I think he IS planning on offering vp to richardson, and I think he signaled it in his NC speech on tues. night. He specifically talked about the heroes card stuff which was totally a richardson issue. Bill is good on vets issues, loads of experience in foreign affairs, gov. and a good back up kind of guy. PLUS he was brave in his endorsing and really did it for the right reasons, I am SURE he is on a short list somewhere.
Bill C. would be very very very hard to get confirmed... the censure sure would not help.
Jen,
Neither of those 2 things is a bar to a seat on the Court-except to the extent that they would make it unlikely that he would be confirmed.
But another issue with Clinton on the Supreme Court is that it's pretty damned boring from what I've read. It's a cloistered life full of reading and writing.
That doesn't really seem to be the big dog's bag.
If the Obama campaign refuses to retire her debt, look for her to say FUCK YOU and simply not campaign on Obama's behalf,
Jesse,
First...she's not an asset.
Secondly, she's been saying fuck you to us all along.
Back at her in SPADES! Get it? LOL!
Let her beg her working class white donors who won't support Obama to help her retire her debt.
Think they can spare that 20 bucks that she promised them in gas savings?
Oh...Obama wouldn't pay street money and he shouldn't pay off a losing extortionist.
Bill in the Supremes?? OMG, that idea is so deliciously EVIL!! I love it already.
Jesse,
As one of the thousands of small $ donors, I want my donations ($200 to $300 so far) to go to TV and radio ads, campaign office supplies, and staff salaries, not to pay off Penn and Wolfson.
-bill
Um, folks, Bill is NOT going anywhere near the Supremes.
Fact #1--the biggie: HE IS NOT A JUDGE.
Neither was Hugo Black.
or john jay, or john marshall, or a host of other supreme court justices. one doesn't even have to be a lawyer according to the consitution. personally, i think bill would not be happy there. a world stage like UN ambassador, or SecState (he could be out of the succession just like albright) would suit him better.
1) "Clinton needs her campaign debt paid off by Obama, so she leaves the campaign not owning anyone money. This includes her personal loans to the campaign."-OH, HELL NO!
Let Hillary pay her own fucking personal debt (They've got $109 million, as far as I know ) I agree with others: I gave money to help Obama, not Hillary, not Penn.
2) If I were Obama, I would give her options, but she and her husband would not dictate a damned thing.
3) Why give her a plank, such as health care? She couldn't get it done back in the 90's; I'm not convinced she could do it now.
The Edwards' could be thrown under a fast moving bus for all I care.
4) She gets NO veto, over Bill Richardson or anyone else.
If she hadn't run such a shitty campaign, Richardson would have been firmly in the Clinton camp.
Obama bribing Hillary to quit? Is there a better hammer to hand to the republicans to beat on him with?
The ONE thing they want to do is paint him as just another corrupt politician. They have to destroy the hope and enthusiasm that his candidacy has generated. If he agrees to this deal, they will make a ton of headway doing that.
This "plan" is her saying:
"Geev me money or I tear the party apart."
At this point, with her campaigning as if Karl Rove were her manager, I'd give her shit if she was a tumblebug.
Whatever she does, no matter how long she stays in, Obama's coattails are going to be a mile long and he is likely to take office with more clout than any president since FDR, in his later terms.
She'd be lucky if he appoints bubba as White House urinal cleaner.
:o)
At this point, she's got nuthin'. Even winning in W.Va. and Kentucky, etc., won't put her anywhere near his delegate count. Her only hope is the superdelegates, and there is jack to indicate that they're foolish enough to go her way.
All Obama has to do is keep on keeping on. If he's within 20 points of her in Ky. and the Mountie state, he gain will be minimal, and practically irrelevant.
The pressure on her to get out is growing every day, and if she wants to dissipate whatever power she has left, in this Ahab-like hunt for the white whale, then let her do it. She's already permanently alienated the progressive wing of the party, and a lot of the center, too.
If she wants to play "in for a dime-in for a dollar", and keep moving to the right, now, it's way more her hiney that's at risk, instead of Obama's. At this point, an ASS of democrats (and counting) are identifying her campaign as a big help to the people who've brought us to the situation we're now in. (With, again, help from Hillary)
With her campaign withering on the triangulation vine, why should we let her blackmail us? It will be an act of political courage and intelligence for Obama to laugh, pat her on the head, and start going after McCain, instead of caving to this scenario.
LM nails it. I didn't send him $40 to have him back-door it to Hillary. Not with her track record.
And, do we really want to see Obama squandering political capital by pushing Bill Clinton for the Supremes? gaaaaahhh!!!
Barack will have SOME honeymoon, but the instant he sends Bill's nomination up to the hill, there woulf be a firestorm, complete with those clips of Bill's finger-wagging bullshit about "I did not have sex with that woman".
If Obama is stupid enough to do THAT, I want my money back. 
USA Today:
Clinton makes case for wide appeal
http://www.usatoday.com/news/
pol...interview_N.htm
"Hillary Rodham Clinton vowed Wednesday to continue her quest for the Democratic nomination, arguing she would be the stronger nominee because she appeals to a wider coalition of voters — including whites who have not supported Barack Obama in recent contests.
"I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."
"There's a pattern emerging here," she said.
"Clinton's blunt remarks about race came a day after primaries in Indiana and North Carolina dealt symbolic and mathematical blows to her White House ambitions."
"The Obama campaign, looking toward locking up the nomination, stepped up pressure on superdelegates who have the decisive votes in their race."
"In both states, Clinton won six of 10 white voters, according to surveys of people as they left polling places."
"Obama spokesman Bill Burton said that in Indiana, Obama split working-class voters with Clinton and won a higher percentage of white voters than in Ohio in March. He said Obama will be the strongest nominee because he appeals "to Americans from every background and all walks of life. These statements from Sen. Clinton are not true and frankly disappointing."
"Clinton rejected any idea that her emphasis on white voters could be interpreted as racially divisive. "These are the people you have to win if you're a Democrat in sufficient numbers to actually win the election. Everybody knows that."
-You go, Hillary!
That's the way to get that debt paid off!
Someone needs to tell her to STFU!
Right now!
From Time, The 5 Mistakes Clinton Made:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/
200...RlBqWdOdq1H2ocA
Make of this what you will.
this is some delicious thread!
I agree with all who say that no way should Obama pay back Hill's loans to self. I am sick & tired of all these "self-financing" candidates - party insiders troll for them for all the wrong reasons, yet expect winning candidates to bail out the losing millionaires? Don't think so.
Re potential white flight from the candidate of color should he be the nominee: I hear all kinds of stuff at one of my client workplaces. Stuff like the one of the only two Dems in a sea of Repubs saying he will vote for McCain if Obama is the Dem. And this is a gay man!
Racism is not only not dead in this country, it's alive and kicking on the surface.
Feh.
with all the hyperbole about sexism and "misogyny" that's been flung around the blogosphere in this campaign, I've never seen a single specific example cited. I firmly do not believe that sexism contributes in any significant degree to what's been dubbed "Hill hatred." I think it's all about her actions -- hers and Bill's.
Now, however, I'm wondering if there isn't something sexist -- or maybe it's "reverse sexist" -- about all this intense debate about how to get her out. Would this be happening if she were a man in this position? Would people be falling all over themselves to offer her consolation prizes like a thwarted toddler -- or would they just be telling her to get the fuck out? Or, perhaps better yet, just ignoring her like the rethugs did with Huckabee?
I think Hillary should be the one on the Supremes....she's smart, wonky, and would be far more likely to find that to be a great place for her talents. Besides, we need another woman on the court. Bill can still be the roving ambassador to the world. Hillary and John Edwards on the court....that would go a long, long way to helping us get over Alito and Roberts.
"Clinton needs her campaign debt paid off by Obama, so she leaves the campaign not owning anyone money."
Well, that certainly goes along with her sense of entitlement. But as long as everyone knows how poorly, how Bush-like, she squandered her warchest, I'm cool with the DNC (but not the Obama campaign) settling her non-personal debts ... AFTER the general election ends one way or another with Obama receiving Hillary's enthusiastic support. And that support starts BEFORE June 1st, or no deal.
I'm afraid she'll have to eat her own personal loans to the campaign, though; an object lesson in the high price of blind ambition and bad hiring decisions. Obama supporters and the DNC have already paid plenty in opportunity costs for her poor judgement and overweening ego.
"Clinton will want some promotions -- say, President Clinton to the next Supreme Court opening, and her to Senate Majority Leader."
No problem with Bill on the Supreme Court. In fact, I sorta like the idea. I doubt he'd put himself through the confirmation process, but Obama giving him first dibs on the first open seat is fine.
And if Sen. Clinton behaves during President Obama's first term, I see no reason why he shouldn't support her bid for Majority Leader. Reid is a lost cause, anyway.
"She needs a major plank, perhaps health care, which has always been her signature issue, to go her way."
Again, if she toes the line and doesn't turn it into corporate welfare for the insurance companies, I don't see why Obama wouldn't support her plan.
"Lastly, Clinton doesn't need Campaign Obama to let her control the VP pick, but she'll want a veto over Bill Richardson, because she and President Clinton are PISSED at Richardson right now."
I doubt this will be an issue. I'd prefer Edwards or Clark as VP. Richardson should get a high profile cabinet post, though.
There's the counter-offer, Jesse: 80-90% of the ask. And I can tell you that a clear-eyed negotiator (or blackmailer) would take the deal and run. Of course, we're talking about Hillary here, and from Admiral Komack's post she seems more interested in playing out the destructive identity politics thread than trying to shake down the Dems and Obama.
And, Jen is as right as a snake.
The idea of Bill as a Supreme nominee, is the stuff of foil-hattery. :o)
John Edwards? That makes some sense. :o)
Re: The notion of Obama paying off Hillary's debts...
Bill the Cat: "SPLFFFTHHHXXX!"
Let her get a loan from her good bud (who already hosted a fund-raiser for her) Rupert Murdoch.
Maybe John, he'd-make-a-good-commander-in-chief, McCain, can chip in, too.
The democratic party, and Obama, owe THIS candidate...NOTHING! And the fact is, stringing out her train-wreck-to-the-right will hurt her far more than it will hurt Obama.
She can help, but if she insists on taking the low road, then I would really be disappointed to see Obama trying to bribe her to leave it.
She has moved to the right, and indentified herself so strongly with McCain and his ongoing bushCo stupidity, that here is a good chance; a very good chance, that Obama can do this without her.
Obama Til Denver
Yup, you're absolutely correct.
A clear-eyed negotiator would take the deal and run. Including at 80-90% of the ask. Hell, even at 75%.
Obama hasn't come out and said it's time -- he's leaving that to his surrogates -- which is a classy act. However I don't see any way for the Clinton Campaign to do anything now other than negotiate the terms of their endorsement.
If all goes well, look for the endorsement to happen May 21, the day after Clinton's next primary victories. The day after my birthday. *smiles* That way she leaves on a win.
I will add that I seriously doubt ANY bait will induce her to do ANYTHING to help Obama get elected. JMO
e: good post about "sexism and misogyny".
I've been saying for over a year now, that if Hillary Clinton were a male senator named "Smith", her track record is such that the "progressive" women's blogs would be enouraging their readers to send money to practically any democrat opposing her.
OTOH, there's *this* tidbit:
Obama Plans to Declare Victory on May 20
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico..._politico/
10184
Yowza.
Paying your opponent’s bills? This is a new one on me.
Why would anyone, ANYONE, pay for her attacks and lies, her hyprocrisy, and a stupidly run campaign? Why would anyone pay for race baiting?
And doesn’t it seem odd that a woman who says she’s in touch with the uneducated white voter is so rich that she can loan herself over $10 million and not hurt? That’s a little “out of touch.” But God blessed her, so she gets to pay Mark Penn, not us.
I think even the low information voter (i.e. redneck) knows a shake down when they see one.
If Obama gives her one dime, it destroys his credibility.
Bill and Hill need to bootstrap. They can earn it all back in 3 months, 6 months tops. After this train wreck of a campaign, I'm sure there's a book contract waiting for both of them. I can hear the sound bites now: Bill, how does it feel to no longer be the first black president? And Hillary, did you decide not to divorce his ass because of love, your love of God, or your psychotic need to lead? She can do the tent circuit for months with that one. And there's part time jobs for both of them with FOX. Tell us what you really think? Pure gold.
"Clinton is a fiercely intelligent woman."
Right.
She's so fiercely intelligent that in 2002 she couldn't join the 21 democratic senators who were silly enough to know what a fuckup invading Iraq would be, and to vote against doing it.
She's so fiercely intelligent that, as Iraq was more and more revealed for what it was, she STILL supported it, and supported the surge, too, until the mid-terms, when she saw what was coming. And as late as 3 1/2 months ago, she was BACK to applauding george bush's flacking for it at his SOTU, while Obama sat stonefaced, to let everyone know where he stood on the matter.
The whole picture:
Early on, she regularly dumped on the heads of her natural constituents, the progressives, as she triangulated to the right, and became more and more enmeshed in bush's war.
More like cowardly stupid...
She let Bill and her top brain-trust pull shit right out of the republican playbook, and now it's cost her the nomination.
We all know that at the gitgo, this election was hers to win, and instead (I'm pleased to note) she's lost it.
Works for me. :o)
"If all goes well, look for the endorsement to happen May 21, the day after Clinton's next primary victories."
If you want to call Indiana a "victory."
Here's another trait of succesful negotiators: when it's clear that they have no choice but to negotiate a graceful exit strategy (and as you say, it's clear), they STOP with the fucking scorched earth rhetoric in public.
Not Hillary. She's parroting the same Boomer identity politics BS that Begala and Tweety were spouting just the other night: accepting a tacit difference between "working, hard-working Americans, white Americans" and the dusky, shiftless Others; and glorifying "whites in both states who had not completed college" (good old "Joe Sixpack") over us eggheads who happen to support Obama. Racism and anti-intellectualism don't exactly bring in Democratic voters these days.
With tactics like that, the thought of her negotiating our foreign debt with the Chinese or the oil sheiks (something the new President will have to do) is downright frightening.
Poor Hillary, her campaign's become her own little Iraq: no exit strategy to be found & she's gotta stay in it until her imbecile advisors get paid.
If that doesn't sway the remaining superdelegates I don't know what will.
"I think Hillary should be the one on the Supremes....she's smart, wonky, and would be far more likely to find that to be a great place for her talents."
-I'm glad you think she's smart; I think she's dumb as a post.
(My apologies to the posts out there)
Have fun "playing". obama is vulnerable, open to indictment. The right is very good in exploiting situations like this. His vulnerability has influenced my decision to back HRC, that and the fact that obama is an empty suit.
yeah, this sheepbleating about how "smart" and "tough" she is is beginning to grate on my nerves almost as bad as McCain the "maverick." I actually heard someone say that her "gas tax" schtick -- "even if it's the wrong idea," PROVES what a smart policy wonk she is. Excuse me?? Having a an idea that is stupid at BEST is proof of "smarts" now?
And as for "tough" -- yet another page from the rethuglican glossary, the one that uses the words "Bush", "standing firm" and "Iraq" in the same sentence.
Over at Kos, a diarist reports that John Edwards will be appearing on Today Friday morning.
Given it's unlikely for Hillary to get the nomination, what's next for her?
We've mentioned the VP slot and I doubt she wants that.
Senate Majority Leader is a good possibility and it plays to her strengths in terms of knowledge of policy and her skills in mediating/brokering.
A longer shot, and something that will not happen in the short term --how about Governor of NY State? This was mentioned, I think, in TAP. There may be an opportunity if Patterson falters (and he hasn't gotten off to a good start post-Spitzer). She may be a good fit for the job --- it involves policy programs, she is a proven vote-getter in NYS, and she may be able to get the Speaker of the Assembly Shelly Silver and Leader of the state Senate Joe Bruno to work together (Bruno and Shelly hate each other, which results in legislative gridlock).
Bill as Supreme Court nominee? I don't think it would be possible - he got his law license suspended in Arkansas, and he's a real lightning rod with the wingnuts, plus I don't think we have enough votes to get through that.
I'd try Alan Dershowitz before that one.
Unless the economy goes to hell before Election Day so badly that even the Corporate Holodeck Media can't hide it from the USAmerican public, say hello to President McSame.
Why? Because racism and anti-intellectualism DO bring in "independent" voters in general elections; plus the GOP doesn't actually need to win, they just need to get close enough to steal it plausibly.
If Clinton somehow pulls off a miracle and wins the nomination, just substitute "sexism" for "racism" and the same thing applies.
I don't think the wars alone can deny McSame the White House; they're too far away, plus there's no draft, so lots of people have little personal stake in the wars.
Also, the Corporate Holodeck Media have been RELATIVELY fair to Obama so far--because the white male frat rats of the CHM are more sexist than they are racist--but they ARE also racist, and they will turn their full smear artillery on Obama once they are sure he will be nominated. Rev. "Jerekhan" Wright was just the beginning, folks. The CHM have much juicier targets--the unrepentant retired terrorists Ayers and Dohrn. Sure, Obama probably has only a nodding acquaintance with them, but when the CHM gets through with the story, the dimwits of white USAmerica will think Obama was a Weatherman himself.
I would like to be mistaken in November, and I will vote for Obama despite my disdain for the Oborg Collective, but years of bitter experience have taught me that I should never underestimate the self-destructive idiocy of my fellow non-elite white USAmericans.
I personally would say no to a Richardson VP role. As an Asian American, I'm still pissed at him for firing Wen Ho Lee from the Los Alamos Nat'l Lab and claiming that it was for his own good, on 60 minutes.
Only a matter of time before racist (and no doubt sexist) jimbo made his appearance. His concern trolling is even less convincing than Peasant Sean's, which is saying something.
"Over at Kos, a diarist reports that John Edwards will be appearing on Today Friday morning."
She didn't listen to McGovern, so Dean's firing a shot across the bow. After Edwards, it's Gore. And after that, it's deal off, tradition or not. Senator Clinton becomes liable for all the debts, Bill gets nothing, and even Lieberman will see more Dem support in the Senate than Hillary during the next 4 years.
"A longer shot, and something that will not happen in the short term --how about Governor of NY State?"
She's pissed off too many liberals and Dem operators in the city at this point, and if she doesn't relent before May 16th she'll still be trying to rebuild her financial credit with donors a decade from now.
I agree it would be a good fit in terms of skillset and focus, though. And maybe dealing with stubborn horse traders like Bruno and Silver would dinally teach her humility and the value of diplomacy.
As a note I despised the clintons long before thsi election, I blame bills econamic "leadership" for the dotbombs, enron, and settign the table for hte mortage issues.
she dosn't need to drop out, she can keep wasteing her money we just need to ignore her. No money to hillary, not one dime, no promises, i don't want a clinton in any position of power, they screwed up the nation enough 8 years ago, I don't want bill in any public office. Let them crawl into a corner and die quietly.
there are two groups of hillary supporters, the hard core dems ayatwm dems who wil vote for the nominee regardless and hte racists who will never vote for obama regardless.
she is irrelivant ot his winning in November, time ot toss those wastes into the dust bin of history
"The wars are too far away."
Come on Bill. :o)
How far away is the closest service station? :o)
The repubs are parking their Lincoln Fornicator Panzers on their lawns like they were wheeled planter boxes.
In the gulf, about 10 days ago, two Iranian gunboats buzzed a U.S. "contractor" ship, which then put a few rounds across their bow, to get their attention. They peeled off, and that was that.
Sorta/kinda.
Within a couple of hours, oil spiked to $119.
It's setting records about every 48 hours.
And if you think that Iraq is going to be as "stable" 4 months from now, as it is today, then let's have a discussion on georgraphy, and BTW, don't sail off the edge of the world.
Silverkris:
While I agree that it's an unlikely scenario, he would only need 51 votes in the Senate. After November, I'm hoping we'll have that, even discounting Lieberman.
IBW:
Unless the economy goes to hell before Election Day so badly that even the Corporate Holodeck Media can't hide it from the USAmerican public, say hello to President McSame...
Jesus, man! If Debbie Downer and Eyeore raised a child together, it would write posts like this. I'm all for being realistic, but this unrelenting pessimism is just crazy.
I've been looking everywhere for a piece like this. Nice to read something that doesn't sound like Homer Simpson on a bad day. People in comments proving why we are so lucky they are not in charge.
I don't think Hil expects to get back money of her own. The term "loan" here means "I'm spending my own money,ok, it's what you might call a bad loan". There is a no-interest, no-payment schedule quality there. Watch Richardson angle for Sec State, btw. That is the second most powerful person in the world. It's the one to get. Senate Majority Leader,for Hil, definitely. UN for Bill. It's punishment AND a reward. Can't beat that. Got to be military for VP. And no Republicans, no Liebermans, dear God, please no. If you want to start the healing, put people in jail. Call it containing the virus.
It's also traditional for the loser's debts to be a lot smaller than hers.
The president doesn't appoint the Senate Majority Leader. The rest of the caucus might have their own ideas on that. Not to mention I really don't see her running for re-election in the Senate.
She's won the popular vote more often than he has. She's still got about half of Dems supporting her. She's not toast, and he is not the godking.
Thanks for trying some analysis without frothing at the mouth, Jesse. Interesting ideas.
If she keeps hanging in, my prediction is that she KNOWS the skeleton in Barack's closet, the one that the Rethugs are waiting to reveal as soon as he's the nominee. He's shitty at dealing with actual opposition or keeping his nose clean. Whereas the Clintons have been through the meatgrinder and are still standing. Not the first thing I look for in a leader, but neither one of them were my first choice, and I'd rather have a smart survivor than someone who's willing to toss Black Liberation Theology on the ashheap when it threatens votes.
They're BOTH politicians, first and foremost. Not progressive, not honest, and in ten years he'll be as rich as them (while donating only half as much percentage-wise to charity as the Clintons do). But she knows how to kick Republican ass, when it serves her interests to do so, and I don't think he does yet. And we don't have the room for him to learn on the job.
Correction:
Obama tossed one particular exponent of black liberation theology on the ashheap when that exponent shat directly on his kitchen table. Most people would have cut Wright loose long before Obama did.
She's won the popular vote more often than he has.
Maybe I'm slow, but could you explain that one for me?
Hat tip to Jack and Jill Politics:
Thursday, May 08, 2008
Final Indiana Results
This just in from the Obama campaign.
The final vote tally for Indiana has been certified the results are as follows:
FINAL INDIANA TALLY — As per Indiana Sec. of State is:
Hillary Clinton: 637,814 / 50.4%
Barack Obama: 626,642 / 49.6%
Diff. = 11,152 votes (less than 1 %)
Obama til Denver,
She shouldn't get a penny of money via the DNC either since Clinton donors are threatening to withhold funds and Obama donors are picking up the slack.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/20...-
t_n_91678.html
I'll give her a boot in her more than ample butt on the way out. No more.
-Mr. Stoopid, you are not stoopid...uh, I mean stupid.
Thank you.
"She's won the popular vote more often than he has."
"Maybe I'm slow, but could you explain that one for me?"
-Bizarro World.
"She's won the popular vote more often than he has."
"More often" doesn't change the fact that he's won the overall popular vote, usually by large margins, and has the most delegates across all states. Even the superdelegates are switching over. The statistic you cite is basically FUD, which is par for the course for Hillary's campaign.
"If she keeps hanging in, my prediction is that she KNOWS the skeleton in Barack's closet, the one that the Rethugs are waiting to reveal as soon as he's the nominee."
Well, we'll just have to take your word on that one. Did you use a crystal ball or tarot cards?
"He's shitty at dealing with actual opposition or keeping his nose clean."
"Nose clean" - haw haw. Sorry, but no one cares about what he did when he was a student. The GOP tried the cocaine use angle, and they failed.
Also, I don't know about coke, but looking at that old photo of her and Bill I'm guessing Hillary inhaled and consumed some interesting (but completely organic) substances during her college days. But it's ok if you're a Boomer, right?
As for "actual opposition," I guess you're saying that Hillary, despite coming into this with a huge war chest, name recognition, and the ability to fight, isn't providing Obama with a real opposition. And based on the results, I'd agree. But by that formula, if Hillary isn't putting up a challenging opposition to Obama, and Obama can't beat McCain, how can she beat McCain?
"I'd rather have a smart survivor than someone who's willing to toss Black Liberation Theology on the ashheap when it threatens votes."
He threw Rev. Wright's specific brand of Boomer identity politics on the ash heap, because angry special pleading and confrontation for confrontation's sake don't work anymore. And at the same time, he expanded the dialogue beyond the narrow confines of race to social and economic class.
The real key to survival is adaptation to new conditions, and that includes addressing younger voters and using the netroots to its fullest potential. One candidate is doing that, while the other is still mired in the DLC's top-down approach of big donors, expensive Beltway consultants, and triangulation.
"They're BOTH politicians, first and foremost. Not progressive, not honest, and in ten years he'll be as rich as them (while donating only half as much percentage-wise to charity as the Clintons do)."
And the crystal ball comes out again. I do agree that they're both politicians, and both not particularly progressive on the issues. But the similarities only highlight those issues where they differ significantly ... little issues like Iraq and the GWOT.
"But she knows how to kick Republican ass, when it serves her interests to do so, and I don't think he does yet."
Well, there's the difference of opinion. On every count, from the quality of his advisors to money management to getting in front of problems to taking the high road, Obama's campaign has beat hers hands-down. Plus, he hasn't had to resort to Rovian tricks through sleazy surrogates like WVWV, or call in favors from scumbags like Drudge or get her photo taken with Scaife or attain a disappointingly narrow win in PA with the help of Rush Limbaugh. Yep, she really knows how to kick Republican ass: by becoming them ...
"No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
"But she knows how to kick Republican ass, when it serves her interests to do so..."
I would be very interested to hear about some of these examples of Hillary "kicking" Republican ass. Don't spare the details, Maggie, let's hear all about it!
"But she knows how to kick Republican ass..."
-Oh, yeah?
When?
Examples, please.
She's won the popular vote more often than he has.
Maggie,
No she hasn't. Please don't mention Florida and Michigan. Hillary acknowledged that Michigan wouldn't count.
Mr. Stoopid, you're not slow (or Stoopid), I was in error, looking at old data. Just now checked RealClearPolitics, and here's the read as of now:
Popular vote total w/o FL and MI:
Obama 15,926,271 -- Clinton 15,215,907
Obama ahead by 710,364
Popular vote total with FL and MI (I don't consider those voters to have ceased to exist in the Democratic party):
Obama 16,502,485 -- Clinton 16,415,202
Obama ahead by 87,283 or 0.25%
In other words, when counting Democrats who have voted, the ratio is 47.9% to 47.6%. This is comparable to Bush's "mandate" over Gore even when that vote was rigged.
These are human beings who VOTED FOR CLINTON. You cannot just wish them into the cornfield, or sulk your way out of delivering them their virtually equal role in this campaign. Not if you care more about the party healing itself than getting to do the endzone dance.
Mr. [not really] Stoopid--To quote probably the only good line in one of the most wretched episodes of TOS Trek ever:
"I've found that evil usually wins unless good is very, very careful."
I also suspect that if Obama does beat the rigged elections [not to mention the assassins], he'll just turn out to be the USA's Gorbachev: the smart guy who came to power too late to save the doomed system.
Also, if we humans do manage not to destroy our technical civilization, and do manage to establish global social democracy, and establish self-supporting colonies inside, and eventually outside, this solar system before the Sun expands into a red giant star [at least 2 billion years from now], there is still the fact that the Universe itself will ultimately die [entropy].
Thus, sooner or later, we are doomed. In this universe, Death always wins sooner or later. The only hope left is if there be another life, in another plane of existence. We have no proof of that, but that gossamer hope is the only hope I have.
Also, I need my gloom as a prophylactic, so I can visit sites such as this one without being assimilated into the Oborg Collective. I loathe the idea of being part of ANY collective. 
"In other words, when counting Democrats who have voted, the ratio is 47.9% to 47.6%. This is comparable to Bush's "mandate" over Gore even when that vote was rigged."
No it is not.
(1) You started out with the inexplicable statement that Clinton has won the popular vote "more often" than Obama. You cited nothing to support that assertion, and you now concede that he has, in fact, won more of the popular vote, no matter how you count it.
(2) No one claimed he had a "mandate." Neither him, nor his campaign, nor his supporters here.
(3) "Rigging the vote" is a long way from playing by the rules that were agreed to by both sides
in advance. And I submit that reneging on that agreement when you don't like the outcome (Clinton) is a lot closer to "rigging" than, um, abiding by the agreement (Obama).
Dear Bill: Nobody gets assimilated into anything, unless they show some willingness for it.
The MOST frightening thing about Obama to both the republicans AND the peckerhead/Grand Kleagle vote that Hillary is so diligently courting, is this:
He's firing people up like no politician in a long time. It's called "change we can believe in". That's why Hillary keeps pissing and moaning about the fact that her corporate sponsors are tapped out, legally speaking, and she doesn't have much grassroots support.
WHEREAS! Obama is breaking every fund-raising record there is. :o)
And best of all, he's DOING it $5, $10, $50, at a time. :o)
Call your next case. :o)
I'll vote for Obama because the only REAL alternative will be the Elephascist; but I don't "believe" in change. Obama will have to prove it to me.
So who's gonna repay MY debt, since I'm a voter, and a veteran? (crickets)
That's what I thought. We bailout Wall Street 'swinging dicks' and millionaire politicos, but screw everyone else.
Yes, maggie, looks like Hillary knows how to kick republican ass. If by 'kick' you mean 'suck up to' -- especially in light of her recent tendency to run a republican-style campaign against a fellow democrat.
crying that if "we were like the republicans, I'd be the winner!!"
Except, maggie, and pay close attention, we ain't.
Look for Hillary to run the 'joementum' into a separate campaign in the fall? wouldn't surprise me. this from a "real democrat"
No thnx, bai.
"Obama will have to prove it to me."
With you there, Bill. :o)
E.G.; If he comes in and starts waffling on getting us out of Iraq, he will be a one-term wonder, and I will do my tiny part to make him so.
BTW, Jesse; good thread. :o)
And we ARE enjoying ourselves. :o)
And, gool ol' Tom Tomorrow has up some FINE links.
Jim-Bob Tanbark gives 'em a clear 9.
:o)
http://www.thismodernworld.com/
Check 'em out. The 'shopped shot of Hillary giving the thumbs up in front of the "Mission Accomplished" sign, is worth the price of admission, alone. :o)
"These are human beings who VOTED FOR CLINTON. You cannot just wish them into the cornfield, or sulk your way out of delivering them their virtually equal role in this campaign."
They can participate, or not, but along with Senator Clinton herself they'll have to get used to doing it on the Democratic nominee's terms. I'd expect that 80% of Hillary's supporters wouldn't have a problem with that anyway, but there's a hard core of DLC hacks and old-line "our turn!" feminists who will. Tough luck for them.
"Not if you care more about the party healing itself than getting to do the endzone dance."
That's pretty rich. Check out Admiral Komack's post at 9:37 am above and tell us how Hillary is promoting party healing with statements that a carbon copies of those made by Begala and Matthews. For bonus points, show us an instance where Obama has pushed a similarly divisive line.
This is what comes of relying on Marc "Microtrends" Penn and K-Streeters to formulate your message. This and a multi-million dollar campaign debt.
And an obsession with the "endzone dance"? That usually entails desperate Hail Mary plays on the field, and lots of fouls and Bill Belichek style cheats. Which candidate has been caught playing that kind of game over and over again for the past year? (and no complaints about using sexist male sports metaphors, since you brought it up).
Great thread!
Jesse, I read most of that from a huffpo post last night and glad to see your take on all that here.
It just goes against what Obama is about, the very premise of a different way to do business, to attempt to somehow ascribe what is "normally" done for the loser candidate. The suggestion that there is some negotiations to be had is rather silly really. She has no position of power. She can try to hold support, and that of bills and mccauliff too, hostage unless he performs some "normal" political kabuki..... but, I say no.
We don't negotiate with terrorists comes to mind.
No really, IF we are to commit to move forward to a new phase of politics, then any negotiation with the clintons is rather negates that and then what's the point.
No he should not pay her a dime. Neither should the DNC use funds to pay her or her bills to the detriment of down ticket funding. No.
No bill clinton, or hillary, are neither qualified nor have exemplified judegement sound enough for scotus appointment. No. *rolley eyes*
No I don't think one word of support from them at this point would be at all helpful. Bill Clinton perhaps.... once or twice onlly, but not Hillary and FOR SURE not mcauliff. My gawd, that's practically a huge negative. She's pretty much spent any and all cred she had.
No vp or even the offer of it. The crazies that are forwarding this do not GET what Obama is about...... a different politics.... one that actually GOVERNS. Imagine that. The clintons et al. will always be there working behind the scenes undermining Obama. That's a given. Why make that easy for them to do. They just don't get what needs to change here.
When I hear her now say she can still win, I'm hearing gwbush saying we can win Iraq. Its the same level of disconnect.... the same level of "tenacity" required for both those insane statements. Its sad. Time for her to go.
So what about her voters. Well, they should take a moment and decide what's more important to them and their future. I had to do that when Edwards was forced out. Aside from the fact that Obama is black and a man, they should have no problem laying down the old politics and embracing the new. So if those are the only two sticking points for them then I'd say go ahead a vote for mccain after you pick yourself up from the screaming tantrum on the floor. As we go forward with Obama, we have a much better chance at getting the recently awoken pubbie voters than pandering to the needy victimists of hillary's.
So Hillary...... HEAR this: NO.
Most interesting thing I heard today was that the Puerto Rico voters cannot vote in the general. Didn't know that.
Obama Til Denver: "Only a matter of time before racist (and no doubt sexist) jimbo made his appearance. His concern trolling is even less convincing than Peasant Sean's, which is saying something."
I'm 66 years old, never been racist in my life. I've fought battles back in the 60s over blacks and gays, gotten my ass kicked doing it. Some piece of shit like you calling me racist is another part of the reason I'll have a problem voting for obama, under almost any circumstance. You are a right wing troll, here to spread division and hatred, just like rightwing trash always does. xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx.
Edited By Siteowner
One sentence redacted -- Threats of violence are not tolerated on Group News Blog.
jimbo -- WARNING - Strike One.
Three strikes and you're out. On your next strike from any blogger, you will be suspended from GNB for one week or longer (depending on the offense.) Arguing a called-strike will simply get you another strike. My blog, my rules. --Jesse Wendel, Publisher
"We don't negotiate with terrrists"
:o) :o) :o)
Some piece of shit like you calling me racist is another part of the reason I'll have a problem voting for obama, under almost any circumstance.
Vote for who you want, but isn't this sort of thing (which I'm seeing all over the place, BTW) a bit like saying you're going to kick the cable guy's ass because the mailman pissed you off?
In other words, shouldn't these candidates stand or fall on their own merits-or at most on the merits of their campaigns? To hold a candidate responsible for a trait you dislike in one of his or her supporters seems a little...off.
I predict she folds after Oregon, which Obama will win. That is also the last major primary; she can say, we ran the race but didn't make it.
As for money, money is fungible. I look for them to pay off the Clinton campaign debts to "the little people," many of whom are the sort of vendors that Obama is likely to need in the general election. If he pays off $ 20 million, leaving her campaign owing her $ 10 million in personal debt, she can pay that off in time. After all, she raised, what, $ 50 million for her last Senate campaign.
Well maggie what about all the HUMANS that voted for kunnich, or Edwards, or any of the other canadate....should they not count also..man poor edwards, obama stole all of his antihillary votes...obviously we should have obmam drop out andjsut revote every where to see who the "real" winner is.
She lost, She lost with every advantage in the book, and she lost due too two factors, shes incompitaint, she is racist
Yep, you figured me out, jimbo. A right wing troll. Watch as all the other commenters confirm your guess based on my past posts.
Your past posts, on the other hand, have shown us exactly what you are: a concern troll who's not even good at that. You're not the most racist troll here, but the sense I get is that you're still pissing your pants at the thought of a black man in the White House and will do anything, even pretend to be some sort of civil rights hero (blacks AND gays! wow!) to prevent it. But we all know how it is with racists: not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer, so the masquerade is laughable and the expectations, as with anything else in your life, are low.
And Jesse, while I understand why you'd remove jimbo's silly challenge for the sake of the board, no actual worries from me about the empty threat of violence. Who except a troll makes a physical threat on a comment thread anymore?
I've been reading statements like this about Hillary here ...
"More like cowardly stupid..."
It's been like listening to the sound of fingernails across a chalkboard.
I suggest that the people saying these things look up the bios of the following two people on Wikipedia and read through them.
CAREFULLY.
1) Bobby Fischer
2) William Shockley
There's a lesson here. One about very high intelligence, and an appetite for folly of a size and scope to rival frank insanity.
Hint: these are not mutually exclusive traits.
Obama til Denver.... been meaning to ask you... then what? Won't you have to change your name then? After Denver? Jes wondering
Okay, I'm stupid, but what kind of metric is 'more often'? I've been told that size counts.
As for Hillary....... a few more days of 'campaigning' and she'll look so ridiculous that the idea of a 'deal' will look likewise.
"Obama til Denver.... been meaning to ask you... then what? Won't you have to change your name then? After Denver? Jes wondering"
No spoilers.
Great.... I need just ONE more freakin' mystery in my life *ROLLEY EYEYS*
Jesse:
Go ahead and strike me. You allowing ignorant pieces of shit like obama in Denver to call someone racist on no evidence whatsoever may be your idea of fair play, but I've fought plenty of wars over a lot less than that. You may feel it is somehow advantageous to allow this, but it says a lot about you as well as shitheels like obama in Denver. Fuck you and him/he/it (troll). Adios.
jimbo honey, don't forget to take your flag pin with you. You don't want to get caught out and about with out thaaat.
Nancy Reagan, dear, if you are reading today, why don't you contact that nice Obama gentleman and explain to him what he must do no matter what Hillary schemes he is faced with: "Just Say No".
Jimbo --
You're done.
You were told what you did wrong -- namely, you threatened violence.
Instead of accepting that and taking your suspension, you said Fuck you and him/he/it (troll) (and other stuff) in your comment above. Furthermore, you sent me a nasty email (which I'm not planning to quote.)
That's THREE strikes.
Jimbo, you are banned from Group News Blog. Goodbye.
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