Glad you're enjoying it, TLG.
I'm one of the half-dozen bloggers who will be participating -- in fact, it's the next post I'm set to write.
So I do deeply appreciate the plug!
the thing is that this whole GAP thing is not about agreeing with each other, but about really listening, and respecting other's viewpoints. melissa is an old friend and one of my first blogging inspirations. i don't agree with many of the things she says, but, goddamn, i admire her style, her wit, and her courage. here's something i learned from her.
blogwhoring.
a pictoral essay on the best mexican food in the world
EXACTLY!
MHB gets the gold star for the thread already!
That girl is fierce!
oh fuck. I thought this horsie was dead..... must we go on flogging it. :-|
My pleasure, tlg. And thanks for the plug. Can't wait to read what Mrs. R has to say.
I'm with the Myrtle Gal . . . HRC's campaign is over.
Let it die.
There were no sins committed there that weren't committed in every other campaign that's ever been run.
I am not a misogynist, and HRC is not a women's issue anymore after what SHE did in her campaign (I voted for Ferraro back then, and damned sorry now I did, what a waste of MY support of the sisters issues).
And she's not a progressive . . . so, what's the deal?
Harumph.
Ok, I'm gonna go further out on the limb here.
The first three sentences are what's all wrong about any progressive or liberal or democrat positioning.
We need to hit the 27% up the side of the head, drill them day and night, drill the rest of the country on the 27's sheer IDIOCY and lack of evolutionary capability, and then we need to bury them, and bury them deep.
All this crap about solving our OWN fuckin differences in the liberal/progressive sphere's is pure horseshit.
27% Whackaloons Run Our Lives!!
Change that, you change everything.
Fail to fight it, you lose everything.
Please. Gimme some meaty change issues and action . . . there's an enemy, ATTACK them!! DEFEND YERSELVES!
At least go find some progressives who won't sell out to AIPAC and big biz and get them elected . . . .
Harumph.
You're a brave gator, Littlest. I read through all of that thread, and am still trying to digest it. I had thought I'd save the conversation for in-person, at Netroots. I can say a couple of things, though.
I never voted for Hillary (though I might now, given the choices, despite her also not being a liberal, etc.) and had serious problems with her stance and campaign. As I do with Barack. But --
It ain't over. And you can't just tell folks "Get over it" if they've been loyal, fighting Dems for 50 years and their contribution is STILL being discounted and taken for granted. As in "Where else you gonna go?"
It's impossible to absolutely quantify how much mainstream AND "progressive" blog woman-hating contributed to Barack winding up with the nomination. But I don't believe anyone can say it played absolutely no role whatsoever. Which I could deal with a lot better if he had ONCE spoken out against it or even made a comment now. His willingness to let it benefit him is almost the last straw.
I'm aware these are feelings, and I don't let them determine my vote. But I'm in a minority, in that regard. Most people DO vote with their emotions. And if I, a non-Hillary supporter, an ardent Democrat partisan, am feeling queasy about pulling the lever for Barack -- how bad is it out there?
If there was a viable third-party candidate who actually talked about women's issues (among other issues), who didn't recite the Right's lies about abortion and sex and abstinence, who would NEVER have thought about voting for Roberts, who didn't ask foaming-at-the-mouth homophobes to speak in his behalf, who wasn't willing to accept Constitutional destruction as long as he got to be the Decider-in-Chief, who spoke out directly about the evils of racism instead of symbolically and reassuringly to the white folks, who addressed CLASS up front, who actually wore the liberal label and didn't run from it -- I think they'd have my vote now.
If you don't want to deal with the damage that's been done, fine, patronize away. But I do. It can lose us this election, and many more.
To repeat one of Melissa's points, it's not those who point out oppression who are creating divisions, it's those who refuse to listen or do anything about it.
I really enjoyed Melissa's post. It held nothing back, even to the point of danger to our common cause, to show what needs to be discussed and moved on, and what needs to be watched in the future. We can't move forward as a coalition unless we bring all our members forward. Our coalition is as strong as the least happy partner.
This is not hard to understand, and not hard to work on. Melissa said these are our shoes, this is the point that we look at the world from. Just for an example, and this was not in her post, since womens wages have actually fallen not just in real dollars like the rest of us, but fallen in respect to men too. Now are you willing to give up 30% of your income, to live like an average woman so you can say it doesn't matter as much as your favorite issue? Just make out your checks to NOW, Emily's List or a specific progressive PAC. Then make out checks to women you know, because you will reach the limit very quickly. Remember you have to reduce your income by 30%, before you can say these issues are of less importance.
You don't have to write these checks if you say, to yourself mostly, these are issues I have to work on, these are the people I have to work with.
Thanks for the discussion Melissa see you again soon.
Sorry, all of you maker-uppers; I got as far as "an appalling onslaught of misogyny unleashed upon his opponent" and reached for the barf bag. Melissa is peddling puke-starter.
Hillary Clinton did NOT lose the nomination because she was the victim of misogyny; she lost it because:
...she voted for the shitmire, and refused to EAT that vote until 20 debates into the primary campaign, when the issue had basically been decided.
...she and her staff were brick-dumb enough to think that with it clearly, bloodily, catastrophically, evident that Iraq WAS the clusterfuck that progressives had been howling it would be for the past 6 years, and with it already showing every sign of causing the economic problems that we now face, that they could throw the progressives under the bus and go haring off after right-wing votes, as she sucked up to Fauxnews, Rupert Murdoch, Richard Mellon Scaife, etc...
...because she was, and is, enough of an unprincipled political chameleon to praise John McCain as good commander-in-chief material, in practically the same breath as she pronounced Barack Obama as not worthy.
...because she was callous enough and in such a state of ongoing shock at watching her coronation express laying in the bottom of the ravine like the wreck of the Old 97, that she, AND her supporters like Melissa, saw nothing wrong with her position that she needed to stay in the race because, you know, ANYTHING-could-happen-and-whillikers!-would-you-
look-at-what-happened-to-poor-Robert-Kennedy?
We dodged a HUGE bullet when Obama, with belated help from the democratic leadership, FINALLY forced her out of the race. With the positions she took, Barack Obama deserves our support (which he is getting) for ridding us of the ONLY candidate who could save the republican party in this election.
At a time when Obama was, and is, breaking every record for fund-raising, and doing it with small donations, she was going $30 million dollars in the hole, and is now looking to Obama to bail her out, using money that his supporters donated to him, for the purpose of, most importantly, getting her out of the race, and then disposing of McCain.
I'm sorry, Gator, but at this point Melissa is not just beating a DEAD horse; the nag is putrid with decay.
She ran a campaign that gave Karl Rove a hard-on that a cat couldn't scratch.
And, happily, delightfully, she LOST.
I suggest that all of the people who are pushing on Obama and his supporters to make kissy-facee put this fact into their heads:
She squandered a shitload of political capital by the campaign that she ran, and she, and her supporters like Melissa, are squandering what she's got left by acting and speaking as if she is still some kind of political powerhouse. Basically, this is about ego, not issues... hers and Bubba's...that's all.
For them, and for the "progressives" like Melissa, whom, in their bushian bizarro-world, think that Hillary's outrageous sucking up to the asshats isn't worthy of mention, as they parse every word that Obama speaks, as if they were still in the race, reviewing Hillary's positions and the tactics she used, really shouldn't be done.
And that is the problem; in their little fantasy, and their denial, they think they're still in a position of power.
Finally, little gator, you do progressives, and Obama, and our chances in November, no favor by encouraging them in this foolishness.
Tanbark is a paid operative of the Republicans whose sole purpose is to divide the remarkably united Democratic Party. Learning how to speak respectfully is part of growing up. I realize it has been long long time under the Republicans, but when we return America to sanity it will be easier to have discussions about the many many issues that have not been dealt with for a generation.
McCain Blogging Points (MBP)(TM) are only valuable, Tanbark, if McCain wins, you won't be able to collect, I'm glad to say, because no one wants four more years of Rove, four more years of Oil companies dictating our policies. No one wants Bush or McBush around anymore.
Thanks Melissa for the posts, great work being honest about the efforts we should make to stay united.
Oh cripes. I posted a link to this discussion on OpenLeft, thought I made it clear it was a different blog but obviously not. Sorry.
tlg and everyone else: I have reposted the link with a clarification. I apologize.
Donald, Tanbark is NOT a repub. He is a long standing member of this community and I value his and everyone else's thoughts on this.
disagree with idea(r)s don't trash the people. At least not in threads about learning how not to trash the people.
Tanbark, I do disagree that I am doing any disservice. Telling them to sit down and shut up. Or ignoring them clearly has not helped. So I am trying listening.
I agree Hilary did NOT lose because of mysogeny. BUT women's role in the process and the way we handle female political powerhouses and grassroots folks alike DOES need to be addressed.
Did you know that many state parties address some of these issues by requiring gender balance of chair/vice chair. And the democratic party has a RULE that delegations to the convention have to be gender balanced as well as each state needing an affirmative action plan to address diversity in all state delegations. It makes our convention look like America! Their convention looks like a white old man's club. Now if we could get that kind of thing working on UP the ladder we would be getting somewhere. And it is NOT enough to say they will vote for us anyway. The thing is without the female vote... we lose.
sure maggie there whwere soem mysoganistic dems who would never vote for hillary....but that isn't obamas fault or doing, they would have never voted for her, she needed to compinsate for that...there are also racist dems who wont vote for obama. in the end id guess htose numebrs wash each othere out. Barak assuemd there was a group that would never vote for him due to racism and compinsated for them...hillary never did. whineing about it now is meaningless...its not why she lost, its nto even a part of why she lost. she benifeted from biggotry as much as she was hurt by it.
gee we ahve tanbark...postign here from the days of steve, callign it like it is, and Donald never posted bofore supportign the right wing authoritarian democrat...one may be a McCain blogger lookign for poitns....I think I see some projection here.
One thing I nver understood...perhapse TLG you could expalin this too me...honest question...why woudl feminists pick as their standared barrer someone whos claim to fame, whose entire grasp at power was her husbands last name? Perhapse pickign a women who is self made, who achived greatness on her own would eb a far better choice.(personal Tamy Duckworth comes to mind, but I am biased, saw here speak a few times, Darcy Burner fits into that catagory as well and shes actualy progressive)
This is nothing more than the cloaked hillary blogs, "Open Left" being one of them, continuing her campaign to undermine our nominee, just as we knew they'd do. Tools.
Dear Little Gator, thank you. :o)
Youse is a good soul; I never doubted it.
and you have, for me, re-energized The Group News Blog. We needed that.
But I am sick unto nausea of hearing the we STILL need to fear and cajole Hillary and whatever percent of her followers are angry enough to either support someone with McCain's record on women's rights, or who might be willing to sit it out; which is, itself, an expression of support for the people, just like Jesse Helms, who've opposed practically every social and political movement toward equality and fairness for women, minorities, and working class Americans.
I'm belly-rumble-tired of being jawboned by bush and his petro-idjits for a lack of "patriotism", and I'm just as tired of being slagged for "misogynism" because, just like a TON of progressives I have been diligent in pointing out that Hillary Clinton got caught with both hands and her tongue in the warpimp cookie jar.
We made her pay for it, and it was righteous work to do it.
:o)
Couldn't have happened to a nicer triangulator. :o)
One more time: I have a daughter and 3 granddaughters. I do not believe there is a women's issue anyone on here can name that I don't support.
I voted for Bill...twice. i WAS a great admirer and supporter of Hillary Clinton. If she had fought the good fight for us; if she had stood up to bush, and had lent her power and influence (now, much diminished) to those 21 democratic Senators who had the courage and intelligence to vote "no" on the authorization vote way back in 2002; if she had risked a few ounces of her vast political capital on our behalf by going against the conservative grain that was so fervently peddling the agit-prop bullshit about the war, and flagburning, and about what a threat to the world WAS Iraq, and now IS Iran, then I might never have left her.
But, just like everyone else, I watched her ooze her way to being a political also-ran, and OUT of the dead lock for the democratic nomination for president that she seemed to be, early on.
Far from being politically savvy, I firmly believe that political historians, years from now, will be asking of her:
"WTF was she thinking???"
Obama is no saviour, and I've gotten after HIM for his little recent brainfarts about not realizing that we need leadership and truth at this point; and Goddamn a dog named "reaching out".
With 4100 american troops dead; with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead, who were NEVER a threat to us or anyone else, until we invaded their country based on a cocktail of bullshit and Koolaid; with oil prices driving up the cost of practically everything we use, from gas to food; and with NO end in sight, we have an opportunity to hang a political woodshed job on the assholes who've done this to us, and the best way to achieve that is not by "bipartisan" pretending that it all descended on us in a shower of golden heaven-piss, but by speaking the truth about who is responsible for it. Early and often.
His latest twitches notwithstanding, Barack Obama has a FAR better claim to the ability and willingness to do that, than Hillary Clinton EVER had.
Hillary! Speak the de riguer good words about Obama, as he is speaking them of you, but then; GET THEE TO THY SENATE SEAT!, Sen. Clinton! And, until you can lay into the bushCo assholes like a 15 foot Great White going after a seal pup, you should probably zip your piehole.
You have been, unspinnably, part of the problem. If you, and your followers, now want to be part of the solution, then we will welcome you, but we have ZERO fucking imperative, either moral or financial or just plain power-enhancing, to wheedle or coax you into honestly atoning for running a campaign that was straight out of Karl Rove's textbook, by offering your services without the hint of bitterness, or "you people OWE us!" or the least breath of wounded, condescending, arrogance.
And for God's sake, Melissa, save the "misogynist" accusations for people like John McCain and the republicans; they deserve them; NOT your fellow progressives who have borne the brunt of the antiwar fight, at the same time that Hillary Clinton was truckling with the people who've gifted us with the clusterfuck that keeps on giving.
This is nothing more than the cloaked hillary blogs, "Open Left" being one of them, continuing her campaign to undermine our nominee, just as we knew they'd do. Tools.
X2
It's the same long winded, poorly written drivel one can read on a daily basis at riverdaughter.
Melissa's blog stuff is usually short, coherent and to the point -- either she had problems delivering to a word count or has CDS and is attempting to shore up weak positions on sheer volume.
There is a case to be made vis-a-vis the media idiots but trying to fold Barack and his campaign into that narrative turned out a limpid mess.
tanbark outside of FISA (big brain fart on his part I feel) obama has done a thign taht I wasn't expectign him to do, or that where difrent from what I understood his stance to be from day one.
SO i fianly read her post...waht a selfish pice of drivle..it boils down to fuck the minorities, fuck the poor, we want us privladged white women to have the largest pice of teh pie...if you don't give it to us youll be sorry.
sorry I am unwillign to replace a authoritarian white male oligarcy with a authoritarian white women oligarcy...jsut cause you got overies and a lack of skin pigmantationdosn't make you any better or any mroe important then
rest of us.
Im sorry that you fell entitled, that aint my problem...I want a better world for EVERYONE regardless of gender, race, religion, sexual oriantation, odd fetish, disability, ect....YOU are not special, YOU are no more improtant than anyone else. no less improatant either. This identity bullshit is disgusting comeign form so called progresives it is close to unforgivable.
And we are STILL getting the MSM flacking the idea of Hillary for veep.
http://apnews.myway.com//article.../
D91QMA6O0.html
It would be a disaster. One MORE snatching of defeat from the jaws of victory.
If he's stupid enough to pick her, he will be writing off the independent vote, and even some moderate republicans who are sick of the lies and distortions that are being used to cover bush's ass in Iraq (until he and the rest of the oil-warriors can get out of Dodge and dump the misery in Obama's lap) and who are sick of what is happening to our economy and our military, and sick of that $3 billion a week being urinated down the tube in Iraq.
Obama's cachet and his undeniable attraction for voters stem from a very few things:
He had the courage to speak out against the war in 2002, when something like 80% of americans were drinking the koolaid...
He has done things like speaking the truth to AIPAC, when he appeared before them and told them that (just as with us) the invasion of Iraq had made them less safe, not more, in that bush's pulling the trigger had empowered the very hard-liners of whom they are so fearful...
He has been articulate and generally, honest, in his speeches...
He SEEMS to be a somewhat different breed of political cat from the hacks, both GOP and Democrat, who've been running the country into the ground...
If he picks Clinton, ALL of that will effectively disappear, as McCain's campaign "braintrust" will instantly turn into jizz-hydrants of joy, at having Obama hand them the opportunity of making the entire election about HAVING THE DAMN CLINTON'S IN THE WHITE HOUSE AGAIN.
No Iraq debacle as THE campaign issue...
No tanking economy...it will be Hillary and Bill, all day; every day. If Obama chooses Hillary, the MSM, led by Faux, will be running so much file footage of BUBBA standing underneath the White House portico and greeting heads of state as Big Dog that the voters will think they've entered some Twilight-Zone timewarp.
The shots of him hugging Monica, will magically appear, with a frequency that will have the ghost of Jesse Helms fondling himself like a 15 year old schoolboy in the throes of puberty.
Something else we'll be seeing a shitload of from the republicans; again, merrily shilled by the MSM, will be that clip of Hillary praising John McCain in practically the same sentence as she rips Obama, for having "nothing" on his record but a speech in which his political courage and smarts were presciently there for everyone to see and admire, at the same time SHE was voting for the shitmire.
If I were Rupert Murdoch and Richard Mellon Scaife, I would dance naked if Obama is cowardly enough (and that's what it will be) to put Hillary on the ticket. Hell, if I were those two zillionaire shitbirds, I'd get out the checkbook and SEND Obama the money to pay down the $30 million she's in debt. That way, he could REALLY suck up to her supporters.
He needs to run the BS about her being a great and tough campaigner; he needs to appear with her about 3 more times, and then he needs to pat her on the head, show her the door, and get on with the serious search for a veep.
If he IS unprincipled enough to pick her, it will be an act of resurrecting the republican party from the grave they've dug for themselves (with help from Hillary) and he will deserve the flopsweat-drenched electoral coin-flip that will surely follow, instead of an excellent chance for a tsunami that we now have.
Courage, Barack. COURAGE! :o)
Sara's response is spot on.
Sara realy gets it. Look the world has changed, the paradime has shifted. either ride that wave or get out of its way.
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