It also explains why the risk goes down over the course of a year or two. It can take a full year (or more) following the very last contact for an obsessed man to get the idea and move on. Any contact before he lets go -- even one, even if it's just seeing her on the street or overhearing her voice -- starts that process all over again.
I didn't know this.
But it makes perfect sense to me.
_____ _____ & I had our last telephone call in Oct 2002 (she called me about a concern she had; even though I still had permission to call her once a month, I was done calling), I sent her an email the following winter which when I was drunk one night telling her bad things, and then I think just one more final email perhaps a year, 18 months later.
And that.was.it.
The intervals between actual contact kept getting longer. Further more, she didn't respond to anything (I don't think) after that last telephone call. Maybe one final email that last fall, whatever.
But as we cut off contact, I also began to let her go in my head. Two years later when I sent her a final email saying, "Yo, I'm good. I'm healthy, just sending you a final email to complete the promise I made two years ago saying, I'd be in touch on this date; all is well, hope you're okay, and please don't write back; it wouldn't be healthy for me." I was in much better shape.
And I recognized to myself by then (with therapist help) how bad any contact with her would be.
Now, five+ years later, healthy and well, I've no doubt I could have a cup of coffee if there were some reason to, and all would be okay. There isn't any reason to and I doubt I think of _____ _____ more than once every three months. But there was a time, when any contact at all would simply have reset the clock right back to the start and I.would.have.been.FUCKED.
Took a full three years from the suicide attempt before I was all the way back to ground zero again. Took another full year before I had was expressing any happiness in my life. Was five years start to finish before I was healthy, well, and full of joy, fully expressing my love for life, back to myself and taking new ground, the whole thing complete.
Anyway, the point I wanted to make tagging on to Sara's beautiful post was, she had this nailed. There is a point where the whole fixation resets. The key is to get past that point with absolutely ZERO contact. ANY contact before then WILL rezero the person's fixation and you are just fucked all over again.
And you don't know how things will go. I ended up being a serious danger to myself. The first 14 months I was a constant threat to kill myself. Only in July 2003 did I suddenly transition away from being a committed suicide threat, to being someone who just had suicidal thoughts, thoughts which took all the way to May 2006, three years from the start to leave. That's what I mean by three years back to ground zero.
My anger was directed at me. But I'm well trained after many years in the helping industry, to take responsibility for my actions. If I hadn't been, you bet your ass I would have blamed that BITCH for everything. It would have been all HER fault. Instead I was the fucking ASSHOLE who deserved to SUFFER & DIE. etc. etc. etc.
So. Do what Sara says. She's right on the nose.
Been there, done that, don't answer the phone, toss the letters, don't give him (and it is usually a him) any satisfaction, and use the courts to get restraining orders and the cops to keep him away. These guys are a walking threat.
thoughts which took all the way to May 2006, three years from the start to leave.
Was May 2006 when your medication was adjusted so that you were able to get your essential personality back?
Melanie says: "don't answer the phone, toss the letters"
Absolutely don't answer the phone. But if you change your phone number, keep the original and put an answering machine on it. Get one that records time, date, and if possible, the incoming number as well as a message. Keep the tapes or backup the digital data.
Don't toss the letters. Don't open them, but keep them. Toss them in a box and save them up. Ideally, stamp them with dates of receipt.
When it comes time to ask for police protection or a restraining order, or when the stalker makes a mistake and gets taken into custody, or when the parole hearing comes up, the evidence you collect may well be what keeps the stalker away / behind bars / on parole / under a restraining order / whatever.
He said, she said will not cut it in these circumstances.
An excellent book on this whole subject is Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear
Although Mrs. Robinson has elided names and dates and changed some of the details, there are a couple of point I want to add -- if they don't match up for you, just consider that we're dancing around some stuff that might better identify the circumstances, and after I finish, I hope you'll understand why that is a bad idea.
The time sequence Mrs. Robinson provides is compressed. We fired OE as specified and immediately began receiving harassing phone calls, while decreased over time and eventually stopped -- maybe after month or so -- but kept me looking at caller ID and the numbers on my pager very carefully. We didn't receive the blow-up calls with threatening voicemail until months later. The police were in his apartment shortly and found the script he'd read from for the phone calls, and he was in custody within a couple of days, IIRC.
OE was convicted and sentenced to several years, of which I believe he served about half (see parole discussion below).
It turned out that the blow-up calls were precipitated by a new stressor which OE blamed upon us (me as his previous manager, our HR manager and our corporate attorney). According to the security consultant, this isn't terribly unusual -- they get over the initial event but come back to it later under a new, possibly similar, stressful situation. It's not impossible for this to happen even decades after the original event, which is one important reason we're not plastering names all over this.
As part of OE's parole process, I was contacted by the police and had explained to me the conditions of OE's parole. Conditions included remaining a certain distance from me and my family. Whether our domicile was specifically included or not was a point of discussion. To the best of our knowledge, OE didn't know where we lived and putting our address (kids' schools, etc.) in the parole conditions would have provided him with excellent intelligence if he wanted to do anything to us. So we disussed it (family, police, security consultants) and didn't add that condition.
We did, however, park a document package containing OE's picture and personal information with on-site security at my job to make sure he never got into the building and that the local police would hear quickly about any attempted parole violation.
Life eventually got back to normal. I don't think the events scarred the children -- in fact I'm not sure they know at any conscious level exactly what was happening. I occasionally google OE's name to see if there's any interesting news.
There never is...
[thoughts which took all the way to May 2006, three years from the start to leave.]
Was May 2006 when your medication was adjusted so that you were able to get your essential personality back?
loveandlight -
No, we didn't realize it was the meds till a little more than a year ago right now, fall 2006. I got sent the man for pain management in Dec 2006, and we went to work, backed up by my therapist. By June we had it nailed down to the point I was fully myself again, for the first time since at least sometime before my neurosurgery in 2001. When precisely "I" went away, no one is quite sure, although if we had to place bets, it would likely be Nov 2001, when I collapsed from the pain one month before the neurosurgery and I was emergency hospitalized for 4 days, so out of it my vocabulary and thoughts regressed on the meds they were giving me for pain control, to about age 5. The neurosurgery was Dec 01. Somewhere in Nov/Dec 01 would be where I'd pick as having gone away. The problem is, if you're not there to say, how do you tell?
It isn't as if there's a moment you can nail it down. It's more like chemo fog or Alzheimer's. At what point do we say, "this is no longer the person I know?" My children were saying it for years, but they were the only people close enough to tell and who they were telling was me and I wasn't there! There was at least one person who potentially got hurt along the way out of the relationship with "me", but the last conversation I had with that person, they were in good shape, and understood what had happened, which I'm ever so grateful for.
You do what you can to clean up the damage and keep moving. All one can ever do is take responsibility, even for what happened when you're out of it, and keep going. *smiles sadly*
Life is happy now and full of joy. Hope this helps.
Thanks Mr and Mrs R, and Jesse for sharing. I wish I had that intel three years ago, when my daughter became the object of obsession. We took care of it then, however it's always a concern. Last night I ferried my girl to my son's commencement. On the way back to the car, she casually mentioned that she had an e-mail from XXXX, (out of the blue and two years after he had moved 3000 miles away) advising that he wanted her address so he could send a postcard from Europe. My concern was palpable, but my girl reassured me that she had not responded and had no intention of doing so. Even so, he sent a followup e-mail to advise her that he had her address. Fortunately, it's my address, my daughter doesn't live here, and said stalker is scared shitless of my son (big as ox, strong like bull) due to previous (ahem, cough) discussions (he never laid a hand on him) of what was appropriate behaviour.
I will send my girl to this site, though, so she can read for herself what happens with obsession. (Mom's don't have quite the voice of authority that others do). So again, thank you for posting this.
By the way, I forgot to mention. My daughter is just shy of her 21st birthday. XXX's behaviour started when he was 17 years old. I found out after the fact that he had abused my girl, physically and verbally, while they were dating. I was beyond livid - as my son muses, it was the only time in my life I was speechless. I can understand, to a degree, my daughter getting herself into this situation - single mom, alcoholic dad, problems with self esteem (she was 6 foot in grade 8, and the butt of jokes), however, I could not understand how she let it continue. I forgot what it was to be 17 and feeling out of the loop. Anyway, we've been through some very bad times, but the sun is rising on the horizon, and I think it's going to be okay. Did I mention that my girl is drop dead gorgeous? Not in a chocolate box way, but in a classical Cate Blanchette way.
My point here is not to brag, but to indicate that stalking isn't an adult phenomena. Kids in high school are being subjected to this crap, and parents, like me, aren't aware it's happening until it's critical. Perhaps that's a whole other post.
Mr. R, thanks to you Gavin de Becker's books is now on my hold list at the library.
After seeing your stories, from both perspectives, I'm a bit curious as to how you regard stalkers. Do you see them as criminals or mentally ill?
And shit, you people have some awful stories. I wish there was something better I could say than my sincere sympathies to you all.
I don't know that it's an either/or.
Certainly I would tend to think most stalking is criminal. I don't know if most stalkers are capable of not being one.
I can say that in the early parts when the "not-Jesse" was really close to killing my body and was slicing me up like crazy, there wasn't any sense at all of "I shouldn't be sending these emails to _____ _____" because this is wrong. My main concern was, if I didn't knock it off she'd be even more pissed at me and thus less likely to come back, but even over that, I didn't have control. The sending of the desperate cries for help, the wanting to die, the getting drunk to kill the overwhelming pain my pain meds couldn't even begin to cope with, all of that: way way out of "my" control."
"I" was very much relegated to a despairing observer on the sidelines, screaming, "this can never and will never be better", the very definition of being committed to Resignation. The best I could muster was hurting myself in an attempt to feel something I was in control of. Which led to getting some control back. Some control back, let to getting other control back, and we started trading bad control for slightly better control, and so on.
There isn't any question I was mentally ill.
But the criminal justice system would have treated me otherwise. Keep in mind I really have a medical team which doctor's in Puget Sound consider staffed by some of the best therapists and physicians around, and I'm no slouch myself, yet even so, with all of us working very hard to get stuff sorted out, none of us even sniffed what was really going on till about a year and a half ago. It took six months to pin down, that was last fall. And y'all know the rest.
If _____ _____ hadn't known and cared for me deeply, I could have been in a world of hurt with the law. As it was, I really did come right up to the edge of the abyss, then walk away.
I don't really care if the source of the obsession comes from mental illness or because the person is a bad person determined to do bad stuff. Either way, the women on the receiving ends needs to do what Sara said, never giving them an feed-back which would let them reset their obsession clock. Even three years afterwards, it wouldn't have been safe for me to have talked with or heard from _____ _____ by email. For me, not for her; I would have been reset, thrown back in my own recovery, for at least a while.
For the person who is obsessed, if they want to not be that way, like anyone, professional help is a phone call and appointment away. All it requires is the willing (to start) to confront your whole life and (in the end) to become damn near a completely different human being than you were to start. Enough of us have done it, that I view the human personality & identity as quite plastic, subject to ontological reconstruction & design.
But you gotta wanna. Bad.
The rest of them are either too ill to get help on their own, too committed to their pathologies, or just fucked up people the rest of us are better off far away from. While it offers all of us better understanding and the opportunity for compassion (which we don't want to lose), it doesn't change the diagnosis or prescription if you're ever on the wrong side of a stalker. You do what Sara & Mr. R said, and you do.it.right.now.
The rest isn't your concern. Saying safe is.
If the voice of experience can be seconded by the voice of inexperience--
The Gift of Fear, which I picked up almost by accident, impressed the bejabbers out of me. It's not just about stalkers; it's about dangerous creepy people in general. The title is serious; those of us who have been trained to be polite and rational are especially in need of a good book on when and how to listen to the instincts.
And it is a good book, reasonably argued from experience, not New Agey antirationalism. The anecdotal evidence may curl your hair, but it doesn't go after disgustingness (for which I have a pretty low threshold).
It's the only book I pretty seriously think ought to be required reading for everybody, but most especially for any female old enough to read it. My copy of his second book was given to me by my daughter, a fact that pleases me inexpressibly; though anyone in the Parent game can probably understand.
Man, nobody ever stalks me! Not ever, not once! Ex-lovers? (Does hand-holding count? Okay, that makes three) As far as seeing me again, their invariable policy is: "Not if I see you first!" Ex-wives? "I wouldn't stalk your stingy ass for a thousand dollars" is what she said, and I couldn't afford $1500 at the time.
Even my dog, Shirley, growls at me when strangers pass our yard, but when she tries to get into passing trucks labeled "Acme Animal Experiments, Inc" I must conclude I engender less than a normal quota of loyalty, let alone obsession, in those who know me best.
I don't know about "The Gift of Fear". I wasn't entirely convinced by his claim that my instincts are of any use. My gut feeling has lied to me many many times now. More importantly, though, even having read the book I choose to take risks rather than live in fear. Yes, when I walk through the park alone in the middle of the night I risk being mugged, bashed, or raped. But I would rather take the risk than spend my life feeling afraid and doing only those things that are safe.
That, too, is my problem with this advice: it forces you to overthrow your whole life to accomodate some loser. I can't argue that it works, or even that it's sometimes necessary. But I don't like the power it gives stalkers over people's lives.
Anne -
I think in general, people shouldn't walk around in fear. And also that in general, unless there are special circumstances, even when fear is there, one should push through the fear and keep going.
That said, as someone who spent ten+ years cleaning up knife & club parties, there's a place for being prudent and listening to caution.
It's a fine line. If one is ever being stalked, this stuff works.
Mooser,
Women are stalked at four times the rate of men. And the incidence is still pretty small. But when it is happening to you, it is terrifying.
I was the first female announcer in the classical radio biz in the Twin Cities in the '70's. I got death threats on a weekly basis and I was working the dead shifts when there was no body else in the building. The caller made sure I understood that he knew exactly where I worked. My boss refused to change my hours so that I could be working when the place was fully staffed. I had to quit that job, the caller threatened to have his dogs tear me apart. And it was a job I needed desperately.
Death threats do tend to get your attention, particularly when the caller is persistent and the story never changes.
Do read that link I posted. If you have never been through this yourself, the statistics may surprise you.
Mrs. & Mr. R, thank you for this post. I now understand much better why we did the things we did years and years ago (see below). I am also putting The Gift of Fear on my shopping list.
Many years ago, my husband had an employee who turned out to have some serious mental health issues, but they were manageable as long as he took his meds. One day, after apparently trying to wean himself off his meds, he completely tipped over the edge and phoned in death threats to my husband and a coworker. My husband was out of town and had the local sheriff come to my office to explain the situation to me. I was able to get my work phone changed and to change our home phone to a new, unlisted number. I stayed at my sister's for a week. (Fortunately, this was before we had kids.) That was it for us, although the company's security consultant runs an occasional check to make sure there's no problem.
The coworker did not take the situation quite as seriously at first, and pretty soon this employee was stalking him and his family. This was before the anti-stalking laws had much in the way of teeth, so there wasn't a whole lot the local police could do. Eventually, the company decided the best thing to do would be to send the coworker and his family to an overseas subsidiary for a while, which they did. They lived overseas for several years before returning, and before they came back, they sold their old house and bought a new place to live in a completely different area. As far as I know, they're doing OK now.
First, let me say that I am a guy, who has had a (female) stalker (I wouldn't exactly say victim, it was a rather minor incident). But there really wasn't all that much that happened (no death threats, or anything serious like that) and I suppose my mentality has made me pretty lucky.
_____ and I had been introduced by a mutual friend and she seemed cool enough and wanted sex. Well, Like any junior in High School, that prospect sounded alright (friend said she was pretty damn hot).
Well, she was shy about meeting up so that never took place. However I did learn that she followed me home once. _____ had gotten a ride from a friend, which was even more freaky.
I pretty much had decided to run the hell away from all this at this point. But what had topped off the absurdity in it all was that my dad had found out about it and had a talk with me about disrespecting women (which I explained I wasn't doing so and how she had come on to me and everything) because he had intercepted a conversation between some friends.
I also found out that _____ had crabs.
I ran the fuck away and didn't look back. Although I heard from a friend that the girl got counseling and wanted to meet with me, I still declined, trusting to my instincts.
But I can definitely see the signs, looking back. Had I accepted the second time? Or not ran away? who knows.
People who are like this are mentally ill. However, they definitely can cross the line, which would also make them a criminal.
I agree that the best thing that can be done is to not give them any contact. You can't worry about what they might do to themselves in the process just like you can't worry about the fate of your assailant when defending yourself. Because that's what it is. Sure, it can get messy, but this is really just one of those times where you have to act with an intent to survive, not please.
And, having been the victim of my own mind once (I got obsessed over a girl after she rejected me... it's a really long story and I won't go into the details as to how everything came about, but I was a lot younger, 3-4 years younger) the best thing I ever did for myself was cut her out of my life completely, and it seriously almost took about a year to get over everything and move on.
Were it not for a friend's compassion and some random comment from Dr. Laura, I wouldn't be here today. I am almost certain of that.
I am not saying that my situation is the norm -- I am a guy, and i've had pretty good instincts to keep me out of danger thus far -- just sharing my experience.
-- The Marked One
I wish I'd known some of these things earlier. It would have saved me a lot of fright and heartache. Unfortunately, if the guy is really persistent sometimes he's willing to pay that insanely high price.
I moved 3000 miles away to a state that never should have crossed my ex-husband's mind. I changed my name, we don't have a land line, and the cell phone is unlisted.
He hired someone to find me. That same someone tracked us while we were on vacation and broke into my truck to steal my medications...and then followed me around asking if I felt all right and did I think I would die without them.
For these guys, there is no help and most stalker laws are behind the time. Our states says the perpetrator has to have lived in the household within the last year, even if what is happening can be proven.
Unless the laws get more strict or the police and other enforcement officials get wiser, one of these days my friends will be attending a funeral and he'll have won.
It has been, by the way, almost fifteen years since I left him and he's still at it even though I've given him no encouragement whatsoever.
I had been the victim of NET stalker and harrasing by some guy I briefly dated. His name is guary Nicholson he is many blogs harrassing people. He changes myspace ID so he won't be track down..he is playersandpsychos. posting obscenes crued messages about my disease father.
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http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forum...ho-have-no-
life
The above comment was posted by Internet harasser and net predator ANGELA BUER. Angela buer is a sociopath who has been harassing many people via the internet posting in blog and webesites. She is attempting to run a smear campaign against others. She uses playersandpsychos.com and other sites to do her dirty work. A blog has been setup to OUT her for her crimes.
http://victimsofangela.wordppress.com
DO NOT HIRE THIS WOMAN FOR ANY REASON. SHE IS AN AWFUL HUMAN BEING.
he is really unstable he takes PAXIL like candy
http://cid-f9b08038305999b7.prof...ofile.live.com/
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