You've already lost.
Look at the rhetoric. "So, in the bill they want to pass to make what is illegal legal" It's an argument vis legality. Which over time, generally speaking will erode down to nothing. Look at things such as drug laws, or copyright. Those are mainly argued on a legality standpoint..and those standpoints are losing.
Privacy is a human right. And that goes for people outside of America as well as inside. No wiretaps without a warrant, anywhere. Period.
Its not just the warrants. Its the immunity here, and apparently its not just for the telcos...
you jsut reliseing that...it was clear from when the bill was first offered that it was a retoractive get out of jail free for the administration...this is nixsons pardon all over again...for a lot of crooks this time.
Ummm someone check Margaret Thatcher, because Harry Reid just stole her balls.
As I have said before, if there are Senators who don’t like these amendments and think they should be subjected to 60-vote thresholds, these Senators are going to have to engage in an old-fashioned filibuster.
someone got to Reid, and this time, for the better.
To drag HS's analogy to its logical conclusion, if Bush and Cheney are the bank robbers in this little scenario, then Reid & Pelosi (and the rest of the Do-Nothing Aristocrats on the Democratic side of the ledger) must be the drivers the getaway car.
Ahem. "The drivers of the getaway car." D'oh!
"...If Harry Reid wanted this bill dead it would never have come out of committee...."
but Harry Reid does NOT want this bill dead
jebus fucking christ, don't you get it yet?!?!?!? What the Democrats do can no longer be excused as "incompetence" or "cowardice", it is now COMPLICITY
One of these days the NSA will have to be dismantled brick by brick and the worldwide electronic capture operation will need to be turned into a relic of imperial rule.
This is the sort of crap that kills any reason to defend this government, let alone fight for it. And Harry Reid? He needs to be defeated. This man shouldn't be leading any party, let alone one that is supposed to be in opposition to the President. The "opposition" party is now led by people who seek legislation to absolve the President of criminal acts? Where do normal people go when their government is run by liars and criminals? Do they join them? Do they fight them?
Matthew reid only has balls when its the dems doing the filibustering...that should tell you something.
its amazing, the dems took the house and senate and nothing has changed...now you tell me that if we vote another one of these establishment dems into office things will be difrent...sorry that ship saild, fool me once, can't get fooled again and all that.
so here is the big question. outside of sbortions vs guns what is the diferance between the parties.....I don't see much at all right now.
remember gettign the house was all abotu hte subpina power...where are they?
simply monstrous.
This bill is not just immunity in the past, but making such spying on us legal IN THE FUTURE.
forever and ever.....
They write letters (sent to Obama's senate office):
It's disgusting to see the FISA bill being rammed thru the senate, while you and Clinton are staying as far away from it as possible. If you are REALLY for change, take time off your run, go to DC and support Chris Dodd in his fight against Bush and Cheney's attempt to protect themselves from any culpability for the damage they have done to the liberties of Americans.
That's what we would expect a President to do, stand up for the constitution and laws of the USA.
As a former veteran, and VFW officer, I would expect NO LESS from a leader.
(ceabaird)
Jr Vice Commander
VFW Post (redacted)
I wrote to my Senators (Martinez and Bill Nelson), appealing to their patriotism to kill this bill and reminding them in the gentlest terms possible that they work for us, and their behavior will be remembered come next election day.
In 363 days, Hillary or Barack or John will be able to use the telcos to do exactly the same thing to their enemies real and fanciful as the repubs have done for the last 8 years.
Now why would any sensible dem vote to take that kind of weaponry out of the hands of an incoming dem president? Does anyone expect an incoming dem pres to send the Military commission act which removed habeus corpus back to congress to be rescinded? Does anyone expect an incoming dem president to revoke any of the executive orders, national security letters or other such affects of the unitary executive that Pres Bush has authored these last 8 years?
What surprises me is that the repubs are voting to extend these powers to whichever dem gets the nod.
CK, they're willing to extend the powers to the Dems because the Dems have made it clear that those powers will never be used against Republicans.
At least Edwards has come out against this FISA fuck-up. If Billary and Obama have intimated likewise, let me know.
I happened on Kissinger doing an interview at Davos. Claimed global terrorism was the largest threat to the world economic order. I had to turn it off before I vomited.
If you're unfamiliar google Crypto AG & NSA.
Kissinger! Now there's a sad old man. One can only hope that ICE will pick him up an deport him ........... given that strange accent.
Bastard.
I have called and emailed my two DEMOCRATIC Senators and DEMOCRATIC Representative and BEGGED them to fillibuster this. I have told them AGAIN that out here in the REAL AMERICA, we are losing hope....
What are these "counter terrorism efforts" of which you speak?
All I can see is window dressing and security theater from wall to wall.
CK:
Yes. The real question, however, is in what sense do I "expect" these things. I expect them in the "I expect children to behave" sort of sense. I do not expect them in an "I expect the sun'll rise in the east tomorrow" sort of sense.
What I expect like the sun in the morning is disappointment. We need to get nuts Ned Lamont style. Reid needs a primary challenger. Well funded ones. "Credible" can be created. It should be, because it's really the only way to chasten people who think we have no other choice but them.
On a moral basis, on a constitutional basis, even on the old fashioned "America is supposed to be better than that" basis, I would like to see those things done away with.
On a pragmatic basis, once power exists and is codified it is NEVER given back. The Iron Laws of Bureaucracy prevail.
Scott: The Repubs "believe" that Hillary would not be vindictive enough to use those powers against them? The republicans "Trust" the democrats? Every one of them, even the new Kos type dems who will be feeding into the lower echelons of government over the next 8 years?
I don't believe it.
CK: the republicans haven't accepted that they will nto retain the whitehouse...the "there is no differeance" meme is gettign louder with every dem assiste...if the republicans can keep voter turnout down they could steal the election.
Bollox Ref: both have stated taht they where agenist it, but neither have acted on those statements...if any of them join the fillibuster today the yhave my vote (yes, DLC hillary...no better then a republican hillary, is included....I seriously doubt that I will ahve to hold my nose and vote for her though.)
MoonG:
To my jaded eyes, the dems are doing a circular firing squad on themselves again.
I have never believed that Bush intends to vacate the premises if the repub party is defeated. One of those national security letters allows him to unilaterally declare a nationwide state of emergency, void elections and otherwise assume dictatorial powers until such time as he deems the state of emergency to be over.
It was only 8 years after the first presidential election, that the people wanted to pronounce George Washington a King.
CK: the dems are allways doign a circular fireing squad. the problem is, all htese dopes where friends growing up, they all belong to the same country clubs, and the same prayer groups...the top dems and teh top republicans are basicly the same guy...the dem will jsut feel a little guilty about reaming you and may give you a pity reach around.
we need a masive change in the political culture or in under a decade the populace will rise up.
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