So who gets the delegates? The longer this drags out, the more likely that it will be resolved in Hillary's favor, it seems to me.
There is one inescapable fact: people went to the polls and voted. They voted in two bogus elections, in which the candidates didn't campaign, and Hillary DID hold at least one fundraiser in Florida, to get her name in the paper just before the election, but people voted.
They can't just throw it out and do nothing. Another plus for the GOP, to have this shit dragging out.
I think the democrats, including Dean, will have to bite the financial bullet and hold a primary in both states. What's the alternative?
I don't think that there is one as long as Hillary is out there screaming about MI and FL needing to be counted.
The only thing I can think of that could stop a new primary being held is if we get to the end of this process and it is clear that FL and MI's votes won't change either the popular vote or the delegate count enough to get Clinton her win.
Obama needs to keep pluggin away, maintaining his lead over Clinton and the (god help me) inevitability of his victory will make this issue finally go away.
I'm not happy about lots of things but do not want the Republicans using this issue in November to piss off Florida voters about Democratic candidates. They need to be given an opportunity to express a preference. How about just divvy the delegates up in proportion to the national ratios - cheap and almost effective.
At least people are interested in an election...
Ummm...it's simple, if you can get the funding.
You mail out ballots to all the registered Democratic voters in the state, which includes a ballot and SASE.
They have a mail back date of June 1.
Getting the voter rolls, and doing the printing is possible in about 3 weeks.
Of course you end up disenfranchising the independents who voted in the MI primary, but who cares.
The logistics are not a big deal.
The money is.
If you figure 3 weeks for getting the money, and 3 weeks to get everything printed and mailed, you have the ballots hitting mail boxes on May 1.
Matthew:
It's not that simple. A mail-in ballot would require changes to election laws in both states. Just changing the laws will require some degree of process, hearings, comment periods, and the like.
Second, you have a monstrous mess with ballot verification. Yes, Oregon does a mail-in ballot but they had years to get their system up and running. Every voter in the state has their signature scanned in electronically so that ballots can be verified. Without scanned signatures, that task becomes enormous.
Finally, you probably have a HUGE mess with provisional ballots. Both states but especially Florida have been notorious for illegally scrubbing names off the voter rolls, especially minority names. To some extent there is a remedy for this at the polls if voters can cast provisional ballots. How do you accommodate provisional ballots in a mail-in election?
My guess is that neither campaign really wants to go spend an enormous amount of money for a June primary in either state, especially when they should at that point be gearing up for the general election and aiming their fire at McCain. How many major media markets are in Florida alone? I doubt the presumptive nominee, Obama, really wants to drop $20 million or whatever into a June Florida primary when he needs to be attacking McCain.
At this point Hillary's campaign seems to be focused on de-legitimizing Obama so she wants the issue to fester rather than get resolved. And Obama obviously doesn't want to put the time and money into hugely expensive summer primary.
My guess? Both sides will run out the clock with endless negotiation and demands until it's too late to do anything else. Hillary wants to run out the clock and then just seat the delegates. Obama wants to run out the clock and then not seat them.
In any event, I'm sick of hearing about Florida and Michigan. We should be spending our energy on McCain.
Balto; a best-case scenario. I like it. :o)
And, Obama has the bucks (more than Hillary) to campaign as long as it takes, and there is a substantial black vote in Florida.
Maybe enough to offset the Cuban vote in the Miami-Dade area.
I don't think he'd mind campaigning there.
Kent, I don't think they can afford to run out the clock. If it goes to Denver close, it will be a hellish situation. With the only options, either completely disenfranchising the democratic voters in the primaries in two states, or vetting the results, which could give Hillary the nomination.
There HAS to be a re-do.
what the fuck did i do the comments?
tanbark : hillary in no way wnats a redo, she will fight it tooth and nail. only Obama benifites . conversly onyl hillary benifits from the controversy (well hillary and McCain, but they are the same person.)
ok they published correctly but i ma typing everything backwards for some ungodly reason....my speeling is goign to get worse untill i figure this out.
I apologise for any incontinence that this causes.
Why can't FL and MI be treated the way the RNC is treating them -- cut their delegates in half, seat them. You could apportion the remaining delegates to HRC and O on a 50/50 basis. It seems unfair to give HRC the benefit of violating the agreement with the DNC -- the candidates were supposed to refrain from campaigning in FL and MI. O wasn't even on the ballot in MI. FL and MI violated the rules. Why should we be cutting them slack??? Cut FL/MI delegates by half, seat them and apportion them to HRC and O 50/50. Done.
This reminds me; I sent John Edwards $80 over the course of his campaign.
If he sits on his butt and stays "neutral" much longer, I'm gonna email him and ask for it back.
There is no longer any doubt about which of these two candidates is closer to Edwards, philosophically, if there ever WAS any doubt. He needs to get off the dime and endorse Obama. He is so much more electable than Clinton that it's pathetic for any of the party honchos to sit on their asses and pretend that we have "two fine candidates".
We have one fine candidate and one gooper-lite. Pelosi, herself, is starting to drop little hints about Obama's being preferable.
Gore and Edwards should hold a joint presser to come out for Obama. It would help a lot in finishing off Clinton, and letting Obama get on with the process of thrashing McCain and the republicans.
Neither of those two is helping our chances in the general by refusing to assist in sinking the only rescue ship the repubs have in this election; the SS Hillary.
And they damn well know it.
"FL and MI violated the rules. Why should we be cutting them slack??? Cut FL/MI delegates by half, seat them and apportion them to HRC and O 50/50. Done."
drunken hausfrau
-And if Hillary starts bitching about it, just tell her, "Hey, YOU signed off on this thing originally; you want them to vote so bad, YOU PAY FOR IT!
Gore and Edwards should hold a joint presser to come out for Obama. It would help a lot in finishing off Clinton, and letting Obama get on with the process of thrashing McCain and the republicans.
Neither of those two is helping our chances in the general by refusing to assist in sinking the only rescue ship the repubs have in this election; the SS Hillary.
And they damn well know it.
tanbar
-Don't expect Gore to come to the rescue; he won't (Why should he?).
Edwards: whatever.
I don't know why he's waiting, but hey, if Obama is smart, he won't put his hopes in Edwards.
(Maybe Edwards wants to be a kingmaker in Denver?)
This thing is getting ridiculous.
Just keep it up, Democrats and your next bumpersticker will be:
The Democratic Party:
See?
We CAN fuck up a wet dream!
There was some flap about how the Florida pubs "made" them hold the primary then. I don't know if this is true but it sure seems, given that they tried it in 2000, that either they're insane little petulant hillary fucks or insane little petulant bush fucks. Until yesterday, I was in favor of a do over, with full campaign by both candidates, paid for by the fuck-up state only IF the people who were for "doing it anyway" were stripped of their dnc standing and/or superdelegate status.
Now, I agree with Dean. No Do over. I also agree with drunken hausfrau - just go with the vote 50/50 delegate apportionment...... AND the "do it anyway" folks stripped of their dnc standing. Why punish everyone...
If that's not ok with them, they could apportion the votes according to total of states won *evil smiley*
Chuck Todd on msnbc says hillary, even with FLMI dels, needs to win 62-64 of all remaining states. Says she can come close in del count and popular vote but cannot get more without this majority. I like him.
At the very least, the party people who promoted this in Florida and MI must have their standing removed... for good..... and the florida voters should have them up on fraud charges for knowingly doing this election fuckery.
Seat the delegates, strip the FLMI leadership of power, apportion according to total states won or 50/50. Seems fair to me.
I'm a Florida taxpayer, and why should I pay for it either -- or Independents or Republicans pay as well? Why should we be responsible to fix what the DNC has wrought. We are already losing state and local services with the cutback in Fed and State funding.
Personally I think Florida should be completely disenfranchised simply as payback for the screw up voting that seated that idiot in the White House.
(Joke)
Admiral Komack: no way hillary wnats a revote, or anyother solution...the state that FL and MI are in now allows her to use them as FUD...espicaly with MI votes goign to hillary or uncomitted (who gets those delegates?). A revote onyl helps Obama...no way she allows it.
on the other hand you can not let the delgates set as they currently stand, the elcetions in those states where shams.
Ensley take your concern else where. the DNC set teh rules, FL and MI broke thsoe rules, this cluster fuck is not on the DNC'd sholders...its compleatly on the state partys to fix this issue.
Tanbark,
Perhaps they can split the delegates but Hillary damned sure can't claim them all after the states broke the rules.
Don't let anyone forget what Hillary said the Michigan votes won't count.
Oh....
Florida Congressional Delegation: "No Redo"
Florida's entire House Democratic caucus -- including both supporters of Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama -- issued a joint statement that aimed to shoot down a proposal to redo the Florida Democratic primary through a mail-in vote. That proposal, floated first by Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.), appeared to be gaining traction. (It's worth noting that Nelson was on the House floor last night, hours before the statement was released.)
"Our House delegation is opposed to a mail-in campaign or any redo of any kind," the statement says.
Here is the quote regarding Michigan. Send it far and wide and don't let anyone forget it!
http://www.npr.org/templates/
sto...toryId=19188859
"It's clear: This election they're having is not going to count for anything. I personally did not think it made any difference whether or not my name was on the ballot," she said.
If I'm wrong about this I KNOW someone will correct me...but I understand that the move of the Florida primary from Feb 5th to Jan 29th was a type of poison pill in legislation designed to ensure there was a paper trail when people voted. The democrats felt the DNC sanctions were the lesser of the two evils--after all, how often in recent history is the presumptive nominee not determined well before the convention?
So I give the FL Dem legislators a tiny bit of slack because (as a Florida voter) I'm glad that the paper trail issue is now codified for the general. But I don't see any easy, reasonable solution to the delegate issue that both Clinton and Obama can agree to.
Actually, a mail in ballot does not require an election law change.
It's a private activity engaged in with private money, much like a caucus.
It would not require an election law change any more than a proxy fight in a corporation would. The state has no interest in the activity.
Moonglum: .."its compleatly on the state partys to fix this issue."
Absolutely, just what I was saying! It is not the State of Florida which needs to pay to fix it. It's the state's Democratic party who needs to pay to fix it; they're the ones who want a revote. There are other people in Florida than just Democrats and why they should have to pay totally escapes me. $22-28 million dollars?!!! Bullshit!
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