actually, 3 raids on the us people, not just the economy.
I've written to both my Senators (fairly useless, as one's spineless and the other's a GOP apparatchik) as well as my Congresscritter (who's GOP all the way, and who I've already told that I'd vote Socialist before I'd even consider voting for him). However, short of threatening physical violence I fail to see what effect it will have on them and their upcoming vote.
Like it or not, we...and I'm not talking about politicians, I'm talking about your average middle-class person, sold our soul to the "markets" a long time ago.
Frankly, don't blame the politicians. How many times do you hear about independents, even Republicans going to vote for Obama because their 401k lost value? Quite a bit actually. How many people were buying their homes not as a place to live, but as an investment? Quite a few.
No, this is one of those cultural issues, where the politicians are acting on behalf of the culture. Even if in this case, the actual people have a bit of sticker shock. Sure, they could let the financial markets run their course, and literally destroy the retirement fund of everybody. And I mean. I don't have a retirement fund. I don't make enough money for that. So I don't have any skin in the game....
But do you really think people would be HAPPY about that? They'd be up in arms. And yes, they'd blame the Democrats.
That's what all this is all about. It's about propping up Wall Street for another few years with the hopes that the real economy will catch up to the shadow economy. And you know something. That actually could happen. Combine another technological job boom with the starting of the retirement of the Boomer generation, which will increase the market value of labor, increasing the amount of money that goes into the real economy.
That's the bet that's being made here. It's a 700 billion bet. And you know something? It's not clear at ALL which side is the right choice, and in fact, we can't know until it's actually done.
700 billions! Mobutu and Marcos were small potatoes compared to these.
That said, I agree with Karmakin, the crisis is systemic, the whole system of values of the USA and the American way of life created this mess, at the end of the day, and will have to go down the memory hole with the economic system, and the banks, if things are to go better at some point in the future.
The 2010s will be closer to Yeltsin's Russia than anyone dared to fear.
Yes, we can know.
The bet they are asking us to make is just more grand theft.
I don't mind propping up the failing system of empire till we can make the transition. In fact, I expect to.
What I mind is being skinned alive while it happens.
There are at least four other plans which would work here, and not give all of the middle-class money to the owning class.
This is theft, plain and simple. They're shoving it to us right now, with the election in our face, because scaring us with TERRORISTS wasn't working any more to get the money. So now they're scaring us with THE MONEY IS BROKEN to get the money.
Follow the money. Rule #1 at any crime scene. Find out who profits, and track THAT guy.
Jesse,
You said it. That is all this is. A heist with a sophisticated smokescreen. They want at that money bag one last and grand time before they get the hell out. We're being lied to and extorted into letting them screw us so that they can then say that we made them do it to us. Then, like a true victimizer, they will lay the blame on us. You know, on that part they will be right. This time we should know better.
IT REALLY IS PISS. IT'S NOT RAIN. THEY ARE LIARS!!!
So they will print the paper. A few trillion more pieces of worthless FRNs.
http://www.bls.gov/emp/empmacro08.htm
Individuals paid $1.5 Trillion in federal personal taxes in 2006.
There is really no need for income taxes of any sort, since the FRNS are meaningless paper, the govt can print as many as it wishes to spend as it wishes. The bailout is going to be a lot more than $3/4 of a trillion, closer to $6 trillion.
Oh well all government spending is theft, either at the point of a gun or at a printing press running overtime. It's the marvel of central banking and fiat currency. Now if we all clap harder maybe tinkerbelle really will fly back up to the old dotcom highs and we all can pretend for a bit longer that debt is really the same thing as created/earned wealth.
The thing is, and I know this is a hard thing to swallow, is that America is an addict. We are addicted to easy credit, debt, and an unrealistic way of life.
It is waved in front of our faces in every TV show, virtually every movie, book, you name it. All of it is subtle propaganda (not always conscious propaganda. The liars have come to believe their own fictions in many cases).
And, like any addict, the only way we will begin to see the error of our ways, the only way we will truly see the need for change...is by hitting rock bottom, and truly suffering the consequences of our actions. This crisis, this administrations actions in general, have powerful lessons for our nation and way of life.
What we need is not another drink. What we need is to really dry out. We may no longer be the 'mightiest nation on earth', or what ever. But, really, who the hell cares about that? I just want a decent life for me, mine, and as many other people in the world as possible.
Jesse,
I think every damn last bit of it is a big fat fucking LIE. I don't think anyone is getting the information here to make a plan, let alone a decent plan. I question the concerted effort of the holders of the wealth that drive, or in this case, dry up, the stock market to hold us hostage.
Bushco is succeeding the longer this plays out. He's succeeding in shifting the onus for his fuckup onto Congress..... the dems in particular. The plan on the table gives them 250B not 700.... right now. I say give them the 250B, get it OFF the freakin' table and let's get back to holding BUSHCO/MCCAIN accountable for allllllll their fuckery. The longer this drags out, it's advantage republicans. 250B is the price to pay, for now, to move along.
Agreeing to the whole 700 now, while handing over $250, does not preclude changing that after January. The dems cannot risk blame for the complete "meltdown" bushco is threatening. It must be done now so we can get the focus back on bushco. It calls their bluff somewhat and buys some time to work a new deal without selling all of the farm. Mostly, it moves the focus of this election OFF of the congress. This focus on the congress is a loser for the dems. We must move forward.
Yes, I think it is all a manufactured lie. All of it.
And what was the treasury department actually working on all this time? Making newly designed money...think about it...
You are missing the big RAID that got all this going. Why on earth would you believe these people about 911 (talk about a crazy story...right!...it was those guys with box cutters...who live in caves who were able to completely out smart the US Air Force...NO Air Force helped us that day!). Also note that, STEEL FRAME BUILDINGS DON'T FALL IN THE PATH OF MOST RESISTANCE...AT FREE FALL SPEED. THAT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE! Although it has never happened before...on 911 it happen 3 times in one day. Go look for yourself at the collapse of Bldg. 7...Google it! Wake up you mistrusting idiots.
the question cicero used over and over in his prosecution of quintus varrus was "qui bono?" (who benefits?)
he would describe the horrid conditions that existed in the roman province of sicily under the governorship of varrus, and he would ask "qui bono?" after a few days the jury, who were mostly folks who had taken huge bribes from varrus and his allies, were responding by rote "varrus."
qui bono? dick cheney's halliburton stocks (in a "blind" trust but he fucking knows exactly how many of them he holds) were trading at a bit under $45 per share when he took office. this morning (although they are falling with the rest of the market) they are trading at $31.96, but, this is after four splits. four splits which means that the worth of a halliburton share going into the cheney administration is $127.84 which makes it a better stock jump than the folks who got in at the beginnings of IBM and Microsoft.
another thing you learn in graduate level math classes is that you can't achieve numbers like that without a fucking plan.
Jesse, I thought the GNB dropped the ball on this issue since most of what is going on now was easily predicted at least a year ago. This is a rather late date to get back on the court, but it is good to see the post up.
I don't pay Federal taxes. I live in one of the few places in the world that US citizens are exempt.
Yet still, I very much do not like the plan. I'll leave the reasons aside, they could go to 50,000 words.
So, in memory of Steve, we are back to a long time problem topic for me.
Are the Democrats really our friends?
I know the Republicans are not, but other than the obviously high IQ that Obama brings to the office, I cannot see how this plan, pushed by the Dems,
is anything other than an embarrassment. And there's the rub!
Just before an election, the Dems have to face a damned if you do, damned if you don't impasse.
I am still hoping the thing withers further before passing. That may be all that can be reasonably expected.
The history of this particular Congress is nothing to inspire trust that the poor and middle class will be respected.
Personally, long ago {30 years ago} I positioned myself for a complete collapse, so I have nothing to lose.
The problem remains: no one can show that the bailout will improve matters,
perhaps just postpone or drag the crisis out.
The rest of my ragged little opinions are moot, since my circumstances {poor and dirt farm based}insulate me from most of the severe consequences we are about to experience.
I trust those reading here will take a close look at all of their economic assumptions immediately and take action on a personal level.
Congress is not watching out for you.
Thank you Jesse.
OK, but here is the crux. how did all this go on for 30 years....getting ever worse, ever louder, ever faster....
and yet we did not hear ONE PEEP about it?
Please people, understand, the first rule in all this trickery is that YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON. Who's job was to keep you in the dark? Your NEWS organization. The Corporate Media. Who, by the way, makes a lot of side money selling ads for oil companies, finance companies, and pharma companies.
None of this swindling and looting happens if people are SHOWN what is going on. We are not THAT stupid. But if you can make sure none of this becomes news, none of it has detailed investigation, no outrage is whipped up into the PEOPLE.....then it all can happen in relative calm and quiet....until it is too late.
We had the wool pulled over our eyes, and it is by the same news orgs who have the blind trust and faith of MILLIONS....including the bulk of our PEOPLE. MOST people are influenced by TV....some are 100%. It has become the main vehicle (behind radio, another rightwing bastion) where people get their ideas and (they think) their news from.
None of this is going anywhere unless we overthrow the media. They will only cover up anything we do, anything we uncover. They have been putting out fires for a long time, this will be no different. As long as they are in charge of the mikes and the cameras, they can make America believe anything they want....such as that WE are dangerous, deluded, conspiracy theorists, etc....
It is all part of the Corporatist's goal, and the media is their biggest cudgel.
Minstrel Hussain Boy -
You asked, "Who benefits?" A good question but I still don't get the answer currently. Yes, I see that the Cheney/Bush gang DID benefit for the past 7+ years but from what I see NOW, many of those trains are leaving the station. When (not IF) Main Street America crashes and burns, Wall Street gets no benefit.
They got theirs when they could. Now, their done. What remains left is what we get.
Ashes.
DickTater, if you want an example of a deluded conspiracy theorist who would probably claim to be "we", just look above for a comment by "Betrayed".
As for the media, have you considered the possibility that the problem is related to the reason that the media can't get a damned thing correct about science- that the media are overstuffed with people who make a business of not knowing what they're talking about?
In our Brave New World, there is no longer any such thing as expert knowledge nor testable fact. Any talking haircut or lunkhead with a Web site can spew uninformed opinion 24/7 and, if his claims are consonant with the preconceptions of enough of the audience, convince himself that he actually is an expert based on that great natural principle, "eat shit-10 billion flies can't be wrong". And since there are so many flies to be fed, it's far safer for anyone who might feel the urge to do the legwork of basic fact-checking to say "fuck it" and roll with the usual "he said- she said" crap.
When a system is saturated from the bottom up with ego-feeding ignorance, cowardice and conformism it will evolve into a decomposing shitpile without any need for an overarching Big Eeevil Conspiracy.
Anyone who still bleats about being in a free-market economy after this should be ventilated with a Barrett Light Fifty at close range.
In a real free-market economy, banks and investment houses that got caught playing these financial games would be liquidated; then again, if you had institutions that really understood that fractional reserve banking works well when the reserve is 50% vice 3.5% and understood the concepts of moral hazard this would have not allowed to happen in the first damn place.
So now they not only want to have us bail them out, they want to do so at Level 2 prices (mark to model) instead of Level 1 (mark to market)…it takes a special kind of balls to demand that kind of greed.
Not to mention that once Uncle Sugar gets his hands on these properties, he now has a problem. If the property is in bad shape because the bank didn’t want to sink any money into it (expecting the poor slob who bought it to mortgage HIS future to fix it), who gets to fix it up to be sold? And when the city/county comes along and want the property taxes that haven’t been paid on the property because the same said bank dragged their feet on it-property taxes that the city/county desperately needs-who gets to pay it?
Under this plan, WE DO.
To quote Charlton Heston, “You maniacs! You blew it up! God…Damn You All To Hell!”
Those who claim that this fine mess was carried out in darkness grew their own darkness and liked it there.
I'm sorry to say there were many many warnings.
Even the great Warren Buffet gave out FREE warnings. Even the cruel Alan G. gave out clear warnings.
The warnings were everywhere for any that cared to believe them, to see the facts, and not the wishful thinking.
Well the light's on now, the roaches are scurrying. Step on one, why don't you?
Hey, at least vote your pocket!
The Bush Bill WAS evil. However, NOT finding an urgent workable solution is irresponsible. The Democrats were trying to be responsible with only approving $250B, NOT $700 so you all need to get the number right at least!!!! Siding with the Republicans is something I'm NOT going to do. There's too much else at stake here!!!
THE BEGINNING OF THE END
AL GORE, DURING THE 2000 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES STATED ....."IF YOU ELECT GEORGE BUSH AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, YOU BETTER HOPE HE DOSEN'T DO FOR THE U.S. WHAT HE DID FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS".
Well, what did G.W.Bush do for the state of Texas when he was Governor?
Bush used a budget surplus to push through Texas's largest tax-cut of over two billion dollars. The result was that Texas' budget bloomed by 40% to over 100 Billion Dollars under Governor Bush. As Governor, Texas was the state with the largest volume of air pollution in the nation, and forty-ninth in spending on the environment. As Governor, Bush supported a last-minute attempt by a Republican senator to pull $250,000,000 out of kindergarten funding and use it for tax cuts. The list go's on and on, do you see any similarities to the present condition of the United States of America?
They teach history for a reason...."THOSE THAT FORGET THE PAST ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT".
Ever since the republicans, under Richard (I am not a crook) Nixon, decoupled the Dollar from the Gold Standard due to the increased runaway spending of the Vietnam War, we have been on a slippery slope towards economic ruin. The mad-dog , $10 Billion Dollars a month spending on the Iraq war is merely a repeat of the Vietnam War Economics. The crisis we are facing today is the result of a dollar that is not worth the paper it's printed on. The rest of the world is slowly coming to the same conclusion and if something isn't done post-haste, they will start dumping the toilet paper we call the U.S. Dollar and cutting their losses before we take them down with us. As to the $700 Billion Dollar bail-out, it's for the Chinese and other sovereign wealth funds that are demanding that their investments be made good or they will proceed to cash out while they can. Well I guess SOCIALISM is bad for the public but good for WALL STREET as it helps foreign banks recover their losses.
I have said this time and time again, the American population, on average, as a whole, reads, writes and comprehends at an 8th Grade Level. The Republicans know that they are dealing with a bunch of 14 year old
’s who don't pay attention to what is really going on. That is how they were able to destroy this Country in only 8 years. Our educational system, for the majority of us, is a joke. Analytical thought is uncommon, and the reality is that this is a country that runs on credit and credit alone. We don't make anything that people want, except weapons and war, we have a "negative" savings rate and a large percentage of the population that thinks Sarah Palin is an excellent choice for Vice President.
Guess What, George W. Bush Senior, recently bought over 100,000 acres of land in Paraguay's northern "Chaco" region. The Bush land is close to a new U.S. military installation,and near a huge tract of land purchased by Rev. Sun Myung Moon. This land also sits astride Latin America's largest water aquifer, the Guarani aquifer. The Paraguayan Senate voted last summer to “grant U.S. troops immunity from national and International Criminal Court (ICC) jurisdiction.” and immediately afterwards, 500 heavily armed U.S. troops arrived with various planes, choppers and land vehicles at Mariscal Estigarribia air base.
SOMEHOW I DON'T THINK THE BUSH FAMILY IS BETTING ON AMERICA, DO THEY KNOW SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T. PAY ATTENTION AMERICANS, EXAMINE WHAT IS HAPPENING AROUND YOU. THINK ABOUT YOU AND YOUR CHILDRENS SURVIVAL.
3 pointer for Marcus.
Could some secretary just quietly alter this bill to give the bankers $700 instead of $700 Billion dollars? Put in a period instead of a comma or something?
There are at least four other plans which would work here, and not give all of the middle-class money to the owning class.
Could we just reverse it and have the owner class give $700 billion to the middle class? I'll manage it, as long as there's no oversight. I have absolutely no qualifications, but I haven't lost billions or businesses either, so I'm more qualified than all the people who want it.
anyone who voted for Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush One and Bush Two, or Clinton (GOP-lite) is complicit in this disaster.
anyone who sat silently while both parties moved jobs to union-free locales or off-shore, is complicit in this.
anyone who felt proud to be an American as they watched Ollie North disgrace his Marine Corps uniform is complicit in this.
anyone who cheered when Bush I invaded a sovereign nation to kidnap his drug smuggling partner (Noriega) before he could spill the beans on Bush's complicity in the deals is complicit in this mess.
anyone who buys the line that the Russians are responsible for the genocide behind the attacks on South Ossetia and Abkhasia or that Iran poses a serious threat to the US is going to be complicit in whatever war crimes ensue from the plans the criminals in Washington have in store for those areas.
We need a revolution, we need a new constitution, and we need to make sure that the people who lost the Civil War and their greedy schemes are never again allowed to enslave the rest of us.
Make it illegal for a Bush to hold ANY office whatsoever.
Don't forget the ATTEMPT to steal Social Security, which Dems somehow managed to thwart in 2005.
don't worry bartcopfan, Social Security and Medicare will be next n the chopping block
I would be very nervous about a new constitution, because we need a group of really superior statesmen to write it, like we had the first time. We just don't have anyone of that caliber now.
However, we could add something about not de-regulating the financial sector into the amendments. Try to make sure we don't keep doing this every 85 years.
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