Fucking brilliant, and dead on goddamn accurate.
In Jesse's dream world, this article would be picked up as an op-ed by damn near every syndicated paper in the United States.
Bring it Sara. Bring it hard.
Well, my husband asked me that very same question about a week ago....why is it that these guys can beat a woman and it's okay and yet, harm the dog and he goes down....I will refer him to your very well worded response here as the only thing I could say to him then was a splutter of frustration at the whole crazy ass shit that goes on anymore.
Women, do what you want.....dogs, now hold on just a minute.
It's certainly a fucked up world we're in now and what you describe in the college sports world just gets them started and reinforces their participation in this entitlement concept and I guess it really starts even earlier for the high school athlete.
It's because dogs have an important role to play in the War Of Terror, as bomb sniffers, guard dogs and companion animals.
When those al Queada types turned out to be "pea-green incorruptible" where damsels are concerned, all the Mata Hari scenarios were rejected and man's best friend became extremist Muslim's worst enemy.
Can you detect high-explosive by smell, Mrs. Robinson? Until then, it's me 'an Rover!
Mooser:
It's an actual fact that Muslim men regard both dogs and women as unclean and untouchable.
Which explains a lot, really....
I hate sports and hate (professional) jocks with a burning passion. Now keep in mind I do appreciate "true athletes" in the same sense as "true hackers" (i.e. if they won a $200M lotto tomorrow they would probably (train/hack) harder than ever).
Much of this arises from my history. As I noted in the previous thread, I'm gifted and have appreciable learning disabilities. Horrific eye hand coordination, and atrocious vision (20/200 uncorrected vision, myopia, astigmatism, color blindness). Needless to say, I was always the last to get picked on teams. I was always the favorite (male) punching bag of the jocks. And most of the beatings were, of course, public, since they were intended as signs of dominance. Needless to say, even the relatively mild level of jock display involved in the coverage of The Tour de France turned my stomach.
In my opinion, team sports should by all rights be downgraded to a somewhat pernicious hobby, with financial support and publicity somewhere on the level of US Curling or Fencing, and a general suspicion of the practitioners on the level of gun nuts.
This doesn't mean downgrading physical fitness, particularly given that the health of the average U.S. football, hockey, boxing or baseball professional is much to speak of, given concussions, bone fractures, failing joints, steroid abuse and punch drunk (Dementia pugilistica) athletes.
Add on the immense misallocation of resources associated with sports that would make the Pentagon blush. While universities cut Science, Engineering, and Math programs, Football is a sacred cow. As per the last post, why are we failing our 'geniuses', three guesses.
Tha said, I have nothing but respect for the athletic mensches out there, Muhammad Ali, Jesse Owens etc. But a mensch is going to be a mensch if he's a super athlete or paraplegic.
It's an actual fact that Muslim men regard both dogs and women as unclean and untouchable.
Any chance you want to take this one back? Even if it is meant to be snark (which it doesn't seem to be), it doesn't play well for obvious reasons.
We all stick a foot in our mouth from time to time. G-d knows I certainly have.
Richard, I'm not aware that the statement is in any way inaccurate.
Orthodox Muslims do not pet dogs (they're not part of the culture, which is why their use at Abu Ghraib was so horrific). They also do not shake hands with women, or even (if they can help it) look at women they're not related to. (Orthodox Jews are only slightly less rigid about this.)
Muslim culture has a lot of issues around women and cleanliness. And also around dogs.
If I'm wrong about this, I'm going to need a citation.
I cruised around the Internet today, and found numerous citations that indicate that Islam exalts sexuality within marriage, as do many other religions
Also, the statement is inaccurate, because your remark applied to all Muslim men, not just Orthodox ones, and most religions are known for having Orthodox factions that advocate much more rigid standards of personal behaviour than people who generally identify with the religion
for example, would you make a statement that attributes a belief of personal behaviour or values of Orthodox Jews to all Jews? Fundamentalist Christians to all Christians?
probably not
I think that these are important questions, because I think that we, as Americans, have a tendency to describe Islam and the behaviour of Muslims by reference to the most Orthodox elements of that religion, which is frequently Wahhabist in character, which is the equivalent of describing Christianity by reference to the most fundamentalist Baptists and the adherents of the Church of Christ
and, there is a serious political dimension to such a misrepresentation, as it plays into the neoconservative notion of a "clash of civilizations"
anyway, my sense is that cleanliness is an issue within Islam generally independent of gender (citation to follow), but don't you live up in the Pacific Northwest? I'm sure that there are some Muslims there that could explain the day to day social reality as opposed to Internet citations
I live in a majority Iranian neighborhood, Richard. "Explanation" is not required: I can walk down the main street of town and watch people interact for 15 minutes.
I'm not sure what your point is. I have male Muslim neighbors who are very Canadianized and will shake hands with me; and others who adhere to older traditions and will not. Just like when I lived among orthodox Jews in West LA. And you don't really know who's who until you reach out your hand and watch who jumps back.
Likewise: some of them have adopted the English Canadian passion for dogs (we have the most wonderfully accepting dog culture here I've ever seen); and others -- usually the newer arrivals --- give me and my dog a wide berth.
Obviously, where my neighbors come from, there are issues. How extensive these issues are does indeed vary with where they came from, how long they've been here, and which faction of the religion they belong to. But the issues are there, and they're quite real.
this post makes the right point & is in fact the first interesting coverage i've struck on this story...bravo...the comment about muslim men might have been a little too all-eveloping, i always thought they weren't supposed to drink, but i was certainly disabused of that notion...(was friends w/ a gaggle of saudi exchange students, great guys, bigtime guzzlers, very devout- prayed 5 times a day, ululated off the damn balconies...far-beyond chauvinist, of course, once tried to buy a girl i was with offa me, seriously, Talal had his big jeweled ring off, "for dat?"...i had to laugh as i explained this was not our custom....pardon the legnthy digression, Jesse's post from down yonder has me mindtrippin back on all kinds of great culture shock)...
to try to get sort of back on point...between andrea dworkin & andrew dice clay, who would you rather have a beer with? i say dworkin...
brought to you by carls jr...
well, yes, I agree, of course there are issues within Islam about these questions of gender and sexuality, I never said otherwise (as a secular leftist I believe that these issues are endemic to all of the religions that I know), and was about to elaborate further on this exact theme until I read your response, but that's not what you said in your remark
and, if you can walk down the street and watch people interact for 15 minutes, and have some neighbors who will touch you and others who will not, then why was the behaviour applied to all Muslim men, when it is apparently contradicted by your own personal experience?
as for my point, I think that it is quite clear, it seems to be easy to make these kinds of reductionist statements about Muslims in this culture, attributing the most Orthodox values to all, obscuring the diversity of that community, when we would never make them about Jews and Christians
and, maybe, we should all think about why we are so willing to engage in this practice with Muslims, but not people of other religions
maybe, our willlingness to do so explains a lot about us
One possible difference was that Vick was charged with federal offenses, and domestic battery is not a federal offense. Moreover, it is not prosecuted on the state level to the extent that it should be for various reasons (victims refuse to prosecute; prosecution offices do not have the resources, personnel, or training needed to facilitate the handling of these special cases, etc.).
Roger Goodell became NFL Commissioner right after the infamous Minnesota Viking "sex boat" scandal came to light. He flew out to Minnesota to personally tell the Viking players that he was going to be a hardass when it came to discipline, and told them to tell their friends around the league. I'm willing to wait and see as to what Goodell will do the next time some player finds himself accused of DV.
Until then, Sara is quite correct to assert that people need to hold a batterer of women with more loathing than they do an animal abuser.
Gee. I thought the article was about American jocks, not Muslim men. Silly me, I guess.
yes, it was, until the author herself made the kind of generalized comment about Muslim men that we would never make about anyone else in this society
I made a lot of generalizations about American jocks, too. And I knew going in I was doing it.
There are jocks who aren't like this. There are a tiny percentage who are real, sane, normal human beings with intact moral compasses. And there's a larger group of "quarterback for Jesus" types who've bowed out of the pussy chase in the name of faith -- though, as Anita Bryant will be the first to tell you (and anyone who's been following the latest fundie scandals will be glad to fill in the details), they often have issues of their own.
But I'm making well-founded generalizations about the overall attitudes embedded in traditional jock culture. And equally well-founded generalizations about the overall beliefs that have been embedded in traditional Muslim culture.
Individuals may vary in the degree and manner that they partake of these attitudes; but they're still connected to that culture, and it forms the background against which they make their choices.
I'm glad this has come forth, but it's clear to me that American Society values dogs more.
And maybe, some of that is a teensy bit our fault. God knows enough women fall over backwards for these animal jackasses. Between the co-eds looking to trap a catch, and a pro-athelete is a catch who stands to make millions, and the countless groupies that stalk them and go ga-ga just for the opportunity that they will give them the time of day or should I say night, these guys think that their shit doesn't stink.
NO! They don't have the right to commit violence against women, but I learned, lo' these many years, that some guys you simply leave alone.
The Vick case has cast a light on many situations that are disgusting. Have you guys heard of the Dunbar Rape in Florida? It's horrific beyond belief and just another reminder how very much I miss Steve. I know he'd blog on both of these stories big time.
http://blog.reidreport.com/2007/...ouldnt-
get.html
You can also google it for more info if you have the stomach for it.
Sorry Sara:
Kevin Harris, senior lecturer at the University of New South Wales, puts it, "women are portrayed in the bible quite consistently as appendages of men; as possessions of men; as goods which may be sold, disposed of, given away, traded, or just ordered about by men" (30). One section in the Bible which is a testament to this view is Exodus 21.7, which expressly condones a man selling his daughter into slavery or concubinage: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do." A man also controlled the sexuality of his daughter, as can be seen in the case of Lot (among many others), who offered his virgin daughters to the homosexual men of Sodom in Genesis 19.8: "I have two daughters who have not known a man. . . . do to them as you please." When a woman was married, in which she usually had little or no say, she became the property of her husband rather than her father, and he then had the right of "purchasing and selling" her (Schmidt 127). He owned not only her person, but also all of her property. "The household articles, even the crumbs of bread on the table [were] his. Should she invite a guest to her house and feed him, she would be stealing from her husband" (San. 71a, Git. 62a). A woman could regain her property only upon divorce or her husband's death, but she was never allowed to inherit any of his property. In fact, Western women had no property rights at all until the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
Which all goes to show that the we need to be aware of "the beam in our eyes, and not the mote in other's"... if you get my drift.
Any who, we are doing a great job of destroying young women in this country (read "Reviving Opheila" by Mary Pipher).
Sorry, but I also meant to say 'thank you' Sara for putting this up.
Absolutely mimi - good call.
Sara, this post needed to be put up.
Ceabird, it's not news to anyone who's spent a few decades being female in America. It's all too clear where we stand (and yeah, Pipher got a lot of it right -- and much has changed as a result of her calling it).
But I'd had a sort of fond hope that after 45 years of modern feminism, we'd at least have passed up dogs on the Great Chain of Being. It's just stomach-curdling to realize that we have not.
And mimi, no. I'm not going to spend one damn minute blaming the victims here. Yes, the smart ones among us learn (eventually) to leave some men well enough alone. (Sorry, LM, but my daughter's been specfically warned about athletes, actors, and musicians.)
But that doesn't excuse ANY man for failure to behave like a civilized human being. There's a minimum standard, and these guys aren't even trying to meet it.
oh the obligatory muslim terrorist is better line realy set my heart a pitter-patter
I am saddened by the silence of people who seem to believe that making this kind of generalized remark about Muslim men is appropriate, or, at least, not something that should be criticized, when Islam and Muslims are the product of a tremendously variegated culture, ethnically, culturally, socially and economically.
Like most people, I have made such insensitive comments over the course of my life as well, and, will undoubtedly do so in the future, and when challenged, I eventually, and admittedly, very begrudingly at first, accepted it as a necessary learning experience.
The last paragraph of Sara's last remark is interesting, perhaps, we should interpret it in light of why we are so willing to blithely stereotype Muslims, and the extent to which it empowers people here who use more sinister stereotypes to promote endless conflict with them.
I will limit my future remarks on this subject to the blog where I post, which can be accessed through the homepage link next to my name.
Finally, I do believe that this post is actually a very good one, and would have not made such an issue of the Muslim men remark if I did not feel very strongly about the subject.
I saw this and was horrified. Yet it barely rated a mention.
But the university said the defending Missouri Valley Conference champions will kick off their season Aug. 31 as scheduled against Lipscomb during a two-day tournament at Bradley.
Sara,
Your post was very good. Unfortunately, so long as abusive athletes can muster the financial wherewithal to hire ruthless lawyers who practice scorched earth pre-trial tactics, there will never be conditions conducive to an open, honest accounting of the pervasiveness of violence against women in professional sports. "Bruising around the throat? She likes it rough." "Semen from multiple partners? She was drunk, high and willing and we have her girlfriends' testimony to prove it." "Torn anus? Kobe was just that big." And on and on.
It's a mistake, though, to think that Vick's downfall "proves" that the NFL takes animal cruelty more seriously than violence against women, because Vick's case was unique. Vick's status as a gifted QB, and a rare black one at that, coupled with the Federal nature of the investigation and the wide range of allegations ensured major press play. More to the point, the Feds had Vick dead to rights, and he and his crew all knew it. Their crimes produced a veritable plume of witnesses and evidence. Had he been charged with battery or rape, he probably would have taken his chances at trial, if his lawyers' demolition of the plaintiff's reputation didn't succeed, confident that the paucity of witnesses and evidence would save him. If the NFL is soon confronted with a case of man-on-woman violence as exhaustively documented as Vick's crimes were, involving a player of comparable stature, and they decline to impose meaningful sanctions, your dogs-are-worth-more-than-women formulation will stand up.
As to PETA and other animal rights groups effectiveness at getting out their message, good for them. If advocates for human beings can't muster the same organizational accumen, legal power and emotional appeal, whose fucking fault is that?
Reviving Ophelia is a must read for parents of girls, girls and educators.
Sara,
I have simply O.D. on this notion that a critical point can't be made lest it sound like blaming the victim. I think I said clearly that it doesn't give them the right, but I also feel that women can do a whole lot of good for themselves by being strong, independent of mind and not inclined to giving into the kind of role playing that reinforces what these knuckleheads see as their inalienable rights to violate women in brutal physical fashion. A lot of these guys are pricks because either they've never been turned down or rarely so.
Personal experience: When I lived in LA, my roommate and a friend of hers were going to hang out at the house of a well-known hall of famer from the NFL. They invited me to come along and I said, 'no thanks.' I explained, 'why would I want to hang out with a man whose violence against women was legendary.'
All I'm saying is that these million dollar babies may be tempting, but you might want to pass. And remember, a lot of these wives won't even prosecute these scumbags. So where does that leave the justice system? I refuse to get into the psychology of domestic abuse. I have too many issues that are far more pressing.
Excuse me if I'm a little testy, but the Dunbar Rape (link above) has spawned a similiar dialogue in the black community. If things keep going they way they are, we're all going to be victims! And then what? Progress is made when people stand up for their convictions and recognize the part they play in the scheme of things. It's the only way things change.
Richard,
I, too, thought it was a sweeping generalization. My silence was due to 2 things: 1. I thought you had defended the position and I had another point that I wanted to make. 2. I don't know a lot of Muslims, and so I can't speak specifically. But yes, I have also been guilty of this kind of thing and sadly, I'll probably do it again. It's not right to paint with so broad a stroke. Certainly as a person of color I know better than that.
And yes, why this contradiction? :Likewise: some of them have adopted the English Canadian passion for dogs...
A lot going on here, at least on my end. Finally, we're all human. I try to remember that at least once a day.
Answer - Ban sports. Sports is mock war. Let 'em fight for real if they want.
Jock == Pussy
Now, I'm sure some former (we ALL get old) jock will get offended and tell me how ironic it is I call him a pussy from the safety of my keyboard and how he'd pound me into the ground in person, to which I say, nice sportsmanship bean brain.
I mean, seriously, there's nothing noble about being a troglodyte, so stop pretending sports teaches anything admirable.
Nice article! It's worth remembering, too (for what it's worth) that most of our early child welfare laws in the US were modeled on existing humane legislation -- weirdly, perhaps it was the ability to imagine that a dog (a piece of property) had needs and interests worth respecting that made it both *possible* and *necessary* to grant the existence and value of the needs and interests of women, children, and enslaved peoples (also "property").
Just one point to clarify, though: As I understand it,in traditional Islam, a great many things are regarded as ritually unclean (which is not the same as blanket-altogether-everything's-nasty-all-the-time uncleanliness -- eeeewwww!).
Dogs, because of certain features and behaviors common to them (i.e., they roll in all nature of crap and lick their own behinds, among other things) are a source of ritual pollution. This means that if you are a carefully observant Muslim and you pet the dog or let it lick you, you can't just hustle on off to pray as if nothing had happened. You have to wash before you pray. Some Muslim cultures take the prohibition on ritual pollution of this kind further than others, but as a rule this is what the "unclean" thing is about.
As it happens, you are a frequent source of ritual pollution to yourself -- the sleep in your eyes, your own snot, your own tears, your own dental plaque and morning cottonmouth, sweat, bodily wastes of all kinds, semen, all kinds of blood, etc. All of these things need to be cleansed, and different believers have different ideas about whether different kinds of uncleanliness require a full bath or just the usual required ritual cleaning of arms to elbows, rinsing the mouth, etc. I had an acquaintance once who avoided my dog like the plague if we ran into him around prayer times precisely because his practice of Islam required a full bath if he touched her before prayer, and he really didn't have the time for that. I imagine Muslims who own dogs (and there are quite a few, I believe) have their own accommodations for doing so that keep the dog piddle off the prayer rug (so to speak).
Sex (in general) is a source of ritual pollution -- so you take a bath before you pray. Working out is likewise a source of ritual pollution, so you take a bath before you pray. That's all it means. A surgeon may, by virtue of being a surgeon, come into contact with quite a lot of unclean stuff -- so s/he will have to clean thoroughly before praying. It's not that you can't touch this stuff ever, it's that you can't bring it with you before God. That's all it means (and it means a lot).
I just wanted to make sure that was clear -- some of the discussion about uncleanliness seemed to be missing this point about it. I'm not excusing any sexist, speciesist, etc. stuff going on as a part of the conceptual baggage always attached to any notion "purity" in a religious context -- just trying to represent it all correctly (or at least charitably).
While generalizations are always wrong, ignoring consistant behavior is not smart. I also have a little difficulty in parsing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin constantly in dailty life. Truthfully you are damned either way.
Entitled athletes are created by a society that looks the other way because of success. Every society on the planet has a celebrity culture of some sort. The sexual politics of this is more than unfortunate. To deny that this exists is foolish.
Muslims that I have met have always treated me well. I don't have a personal axe to grind with them. At the same time, I think that as a group they seem to show a disdain for human rights for women. Or rather they seem to have a cultural bias against viewing women as equal to men. Growing up in the vestiges of Native American culture, in a matriarchy, I find this appalling and am not prepared to let it pass.
Sometimes an asshole is just an asshole, no matter why they became one.
Mimi, I think I made it pretty clear in my post that I got VERY clear about how to set boundaries around these guys, and not get myself into stupid situations. (House parties? Riiiiight. Not without a trusted male escort, anyway. Good call on your part.) And, as I said: they didn't always appreciate it.
I was offered a chance to be one of Wilt Chamberlain's legendary 10,000. (We went to the same gym in Santa Monica, and kept running into each other.) He, at least, understood the word "no." But he probably had more reason than most to believe that he'd hear "yes" from someone soon enough. ; ) To his credit, he didn't stop being friendly after that, either.
And I'm not going to comment anymore on the Muslim thing. I said what I meant, and there are a few people trying very hard to deliberately misconstrue and misread my intent. Not the first time Richard's done that (he's wandered around on comments threads for years picking on me for this and that -- I was recently stunned to find an Orcinus comment thread from 2004 that was the same shit, different year), and I'm done.
Ah, Mrs. Robinson, I don't think a lot of people understand that you are a (self described) "recovering fundamentalist".
And they haven't got the patience to wait until you pass the "dry drunk" stage.
And I see you also fell for that old canard about married Jewish men not shaking hands or meeting the eyes of women. O c'mon, you oughta know that's just schtick, like telling a girl I'm gay, so she can "cure" me. That no-touchee-no-shakee bit just lets the shiksas feel like they've really scored a victory when you get them into bed. I've played on that one for years, and I wasn't even married!
The Orthodox Jewish bit is at least well-known or widespread enough that Orthodox artist Matisyahu will not shake hands with female journalists even when they are interviewing him.
I thought that was somewhat rude.
Muslims do seem to have a cultural preference towards keeping cats, as I have read on Saudi blogs and the like. A cat lover like myself can only see that as a good thing.
I think this is a very good article, but why does it have to contrast violence towards women and dogs?
I just don't like the methodology used here. Violence against dogs is also reprehensible. It's not an either/or situation.
I wish the article had been written without the reference to dogs.
Sara,
My Muslim friends like and pet my dog. Maybe they disinfect themselves when they get home. I'll ask. No, I won't ask.
I think it'll have to take a woman defending herself and castrating one of these hopped-up-on-testosterone assholes (with a broken whisky bottle would be appropriate) to draw more attention to this problem, and maybe - MAYBE - start people working to end the practice.
Or at least there'll be a lot of NFL stars running around unable to reproduce.
sports talk in my area has been talkign about this...the dopes, all wondered why the NFL didn't take wife beating as seriously as dog fighting.
One host gets it (bernstine WSCR) hopefuly you guys can get it as well.
Vicks suspention has nothing to do with killing or injuring dogs(he isn't uspended yet, but he will be, adn probably for life). The NFL could care less aobut what you do in your personal life, thats for the courts to decide(I would have a problem if Mr X. got fired for random job for being accused of abuseign his wife...if hwe did or didn't isn't the companies busness...thats between him, her and the goevment) Vick will get punished because of the gamiling aspect, that is a mortal sin in the eyes of profeshional sports (as it should be)
Yes, I'm Serious: I use to be smething of an athilate (two rounds away from the olympic team in my sport, rated in the top 50 in the nation at one point) am I some mindless neanderthal??? there are bad seeds in every group, lets not forget guys like Ira Einhorn...even the peace and love hippy types had men who considered women nothign more the nobjects.
Sara: plenty of christinas consider women ot be nothing more then property, plenty of athists fell the same way. this is not a religious issue
Moonglum: I think that really depends on what profession Mr. X is in.
If I were his boss, and he worked an assembly line that brought him into no contact with customers and not even much with other employees, then I might suggest that he see the company shrink, and leave him be.
But if I were the chief of police, and he was one of my officers, I'd look at it a lot more closely. Spousal abuse is unusually high among cops as a profession; and it may be a sign of an anger management problem that could become a very expensive headache for the department. As his boss, I'd be negligent in my duty -- and taking on terrifying liability -- if I didn't take steps to ensure I wasn't sending an unstable cop out onto the street.
I noted upthread that I was making very sweeping generalizations about pros sports athletes -- generalizations based on by my own personal experiences with them. But, as you suggest, I've also noticed that sports that don't draw the big money and lots of national TV -- that don't make stars on that scale -- don't have anything like that woman-hating culture.
That's especially true in sports where both men and women compete, which includes the vast majority of Olympic sports. There's a lot of mutual respect for each other's work, and it makes them very egalitarian in their thinking. The athletes I met while working the '84 Games were, to a person, amazing human beings -- and, on the whole, less sexist than the general run of people.
So it seems possible that the fact that only men play football, basketball, baseball, and hockey -- and only men have access to the kind of money and stardom that go with those sports -- has a lot to do with the high level of testosterone poisoning found in those fields. They are, by definition, no-gurlz-allowed clubhouses, and the boys defend them against female incursion with everything they've got.
with the high level of testosterone poisoning found in those fields.
What is the ng/per liter amount of testoterone in the blood which is considered "poisonous"?
Cause I'm gonna have myself tested right away, and if my testorone level is too high, I'm going to have to kill myself to avoid hurting society. Well, maybe I'll just have myself committed, or my testes ommitted.
And I'm gonna have my dog tested, too!
Any responsible male would.
Dynamite article. I agree with Jesse . . . is there anyway of getting it syndicated??
The NFL is running scared right now due to last year's wave of arrests. PETA seized on that with its campaign against Vick. We should do the same.
However, one point to keep in mind. The dog's pictures ran across the country. That doesn't happen with rape and DV victims; often for good reason. But that lack of visualization makes it easy for people to treat it as a "private crime."
One way around it is by showing the connection between people who harm animals and non-consensual sadism. (Most serial killers start with pets. That's why juvenile courts track it.) I don't doubt for a minute that Vick and his friends treated their "dates" in a similar fashion.
Nor can we discount the issue of race in this case. The Virginia Commonwealth is looking at going after Vick for 40 years in prison. Given what he's done to the dogs, I frankly don't care. But part of me can't help but wonder if it would happen if he was a good 'ole boy mistreating his coon dogs.
Excellent post, Sara.
Here's my take on why violence against dogs gets taken more seriously than violence against women: there's no second-guessing with dogs, and there's no self-justifying the kind of cruelty Vick was involved in.
Any time rape is discussed on a feminist blog, say, someone inevitably pipes up to discuss what the victim did wrong, what she should have done instead, what she was wearing, why she shouldn't have been alone, why she shouldn't have been with someone else, why she should have been carrying a gun, why she should have taken self-defense classes, what she did to put herself in that position, etc. etc.
Discussions of domestic violence are the same: maybe she pissed him off, what did she do to contribute, why didn't she just leave?
Notice what happens? The focus is put on the victim rather than the perpetrator.
Part of it, surely, is that nobody wants to think that they would either be a victim or a perpetrator in such a situation. I'm more alert than that, I'd never do anything so stupid, or C'mon! I may have ignored her when she said she didn't want to, but I'm not a rapist!
Hits home, doesn't it?
But electrocuting a dog who lost a fight is not the kind of thing that most people can excuse by second-guessing the dog's behavior. Or by justifying their own behavior. Who can imagine anything a dog could do (short of attacking) that would justify being electrocuted or smashed on concrete to kill it? Who can imagine themselves doing such a thing?
But burn dinner or wear a too-short skirt? Hell, she was asking for it.
You’d think that our macho culture would give women-beaters the same lowlife status as child molesters. The fact that we don’t indicates that gender discrimination is an essential pillar of our society, and that violence is necessary to maintain it.
(And I strongly believe that the figurative use of ‘bitch’ is extremely offensive, misguided, and dangerous.)
Jeez, I gotta scroll past the picture of that poor pooch at high speed every time I visit this post. It breaks my heart every time.
Cath: the NFL dosn't care about the dog fighting, nor sohuld it, that is for the criminal courts to deal with...if it where jsut about dog fighting after he served his time he would be allowed back in, givin a second chance after he paid his debt to society (jails are about reabilitation correct? i mean other wise we may as well just shoot all felions in the head if no one can ever change)
he was involved in gambeling, taht is a prosports mortal sin (only MJ could get away wit hit, even mr Rose got hammered). he opend the NFL to possible organized crime manipulation, in their eyes that is the big deal and that is why he will get banned for life.
Dog fighting is a very big deal, so is abuse, but those are issues for society at large to deal with. the subgroup cannot and should not be accpected to handle those issues. It is not the NFL's (or any sports) fault nor problem that society as a whole recats more negitivly to dog abusers the nwife beaters.
oh and Cath teh virginia prosecuter is black, adn initaly didn't want to prosecute vick at all. he makeing a lot of noise now about 40 yrs due ot the media attention. this is not a racial issue.
moonglum:
Did you make any money being an high tier triathlete (I'm guessing you spent money to do so). Did anybody cut you a break for your wanton lifestyle? No? Then you are alright in my book in that you did it for love of the sport, and would (and probably did) do it for the love of the sport. Just as I suspect you code in your free time for the love of coding.
In the general issue of misogyny, the world's culture is so saturated with it that any profession or belief system is going to be tainted with these bastards (Von Neumann and Hans Resier come to mind in the sciences). But the fundamentalist, jock (as opposed to athlete) and for that matter rock star personalities tend to have a particular tendency toward misogyny. In the case of fundamentalist (Islamic, Christian, Jewish and in the case of Einhorn New Age) mentalities, their faith is cherry picked to support their desires . I suspect that it is certain highly charismatic personalities (either by dint of ability, personality or looks) combined with an alpha male role that drives this.
As for dogs. While I'm presently a cat owner, I love dogs and have a particular hatred towards anybody who would mistreat any animal. Animal abuse is usually a precursor to abuse and murder of humans. Identifying and countering animal abuse is a proactive measure against the abuse and murder of women.
fencing not tirathaliate...and ya I dumped tons of money(1k + on equpment, no idea how much on travle to the events.). Still owuld pick up a blade and square off in a hart beat today, though my shape is a little more round then it was way back when. oh and no codeign, i hate computers, only touch them at work(yes I work in IT ahh the irony)....
I think we agree on most of your points, Mysoginay is not a sports issue, its a sociatial issue on a very Macro scale (there is no nation on earth that dosn't harbor a large group of men who treat women like dirt and get away with it)
my point is that the NFL isn't saying that dog abuse is worse then wife abuse(the courts may be saying tha, take it up with the courts) the NFL will be saying (he hasn't been suspended yet) that gambiling is not in any way permitted in their prosport and ban vick for life due to his involvment (the reason why NFL teams have to release injury reports si to keep down the insider information numbers)
FWIW, I'd just like to say that I thought that mimi brought up a good point. I didn't get the impression she was "blaming the victim" while still acknowledging that there is the issue of responsibility. (Yes, I'm a woman.) Yes, I know that Sara figured out early on whose room to not go to but not every woman does. This is NOT tying into the notion of any woman deserving demeaning &/or sadistic treatment.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Tolerating spousal abuse is wrong. Dogfighting's wrong, too.
Also, let's not paint all collegiate and pro athletes with the same brush. Not every one of them is OJ in the making. Not every one of them are closing ranks with Vick over dogfighting, or spousal abuse, or whatever. Athletes do not constitute a "Thin Blue Line" in any meaningful way that I can see.
In regards to the spousal abuse issue, you take one of your own examples you made, Sara. Good old Wilt. You make it sound as if Wilt handled the rejection just fine. You may not approve of his or other athletes' lifestyles, but it is undeniable that these pros get it thrown at them. I don't necessarily see a connection between that and spousal abuse. Womanizing does not a wife-beater make. I am certain spousal abuse is a larger problem than dogfighting in pro sports, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't deal with both when it's brought to their collective attention.
How should the league deal with spousal abuse? I hope they start treating it as the equivalent of whatever they dish out to Micheal Vick, although that probably won't happen soon.
By the way, Moonglum I believe you are wrong. To some degree, it is a race issue, but not in the manner implied by the prosecutor as you describe it. The truth is the whole American dogfighting thing, particularly with Pit bulls, is an urban gambling "sport," acknowledged in a positive manner to a degree by the hip-hop subculture and some segments of African-American subcultures. I am NOT blaming African-Americans for dogfighting, simply stating the obvious that a few, I'm certain, very small segments of African-American and hip-hop subcultures approve of and participate in dogfighing. It's like cockfighting and Mexicans or bullfighting and the Spanish. Not all Mexicans or Spanish are to blame for those awful "sports," but there's no denying it's a part of the culture.
Here's the thing I can't figure out, though -- and it applies to the whole dogfighting subculture -- why Pit bulls? Pit bulls (a variety of terriers, basically) can be such nice dogs! They're ruining them. I wonder if it's a size and training issue. You get a spazzed out Pit, a few people are going to be able to get that thing under control. That's as opposed to something much bigger, much stronger and much more naturally aggressive than a Pit bull. Is that why they use Pits? They're not "meaner" than any other breed, and they sure aren't the biggest or the strongest. It's really a shame. Pit bulls can be so loyal, it's terrible. That's one of the reasons this thing is so awful, Sara. These are nice but stupid beasts, being turned into savage monsters by assholes like Vick. They have no free will at all, none, no choices, just a living thing subjected to horrendous torture for the sick pleasure of people who really ought to know better. Dog owners should not act like Vick and his buddies.
I suspect that it doesn't take long to socialize these guys. Back in the 80s I was a correspondent with the Associated Press. Among my wide-ranging duties, I covered football and basketball at UTEP and Texas Tech.
One year, Army played in the Sun Bowl. I was surprised when I interviewed the Army players, because they were polite and didn't cop Attitude. It was the damndest thing. I had grown so accustomed to these guys being assholes -- and, let's face it, if you play football for UTEP or Hawaii or Texas Tech or Baylor, you're not so fucking great that your shit don't stink (n the other hand, I covered Tim Hardaway when he was in college, and I was awestruck at every game. Yeah, he had 'tude.) -- that it's kinda comical that these guys thought they were such hot shit.
Anyway, my point being: The Army players genuinely struck me as guys who would treat men, women, dogs, and enemy POWs respectfully. Maybe I was wrong. But two to four years of Military Academy discipline had wrought them into polite, gallant men.
If they can be turned into non-assholes in just a few years, then other athletes can be socialized, too.
I love dogs and have a particular hatred towards anybody who would mistreat any animal.
I rate using dogs to do humans dirtywork or dangerous work just above, maybe, dogfighting.
Sniff out the goddam explosives for yourself! It's not the dog's fault somebody wants to plant a bomb.
And put a leash on some human volunteer and use them for a security goon. Chase and bite your own goddam criminals.
There is no reason to make dogs take sides in our conflicts. teaching a dog to attack and bite people is just ensuring the dog will have to be destroyed when its work is over.
Every morning I watch the dogs sucking exhaust in the line at the Bummertown ferry, while the cops do what the dogs can't- look into the cars to catch people looking at pron on their laptop, or maybe mastrabating.
I played football at a Big 10 university around the same time Mrs.Robinson had her unhappy experiences in dorms and classes.While I won't argue that we(I) didn't engage in excessive behavior,I would submit that many of the qualities she attributes to athletes in particular would be exhibited by any group of 21 year old guys accorded the privleges we recieved.I plead guilty to taking what I was given,including the women who sought me out rather than the other way around.
As to the exchange with Richard Estes,I think his point about you using the fundamentalist example to make your point about Muslims is spot on.And really,if Muslim men regard dogs and women as equally unclean,where do the little Muslims come from?
Queequeg:
John Feinstein wrote a book called
Last Amateurs: Playing for Glory and Honor in Division I College Basketball which chronicled the Patriot League and focused on the Army-Navy Games. I haven't read it, but from the reviews, West Point and the Naval Academy are very intent upon making sure that the primary mission of the academy is training and education and athletics is only a means of team building and improving physical fitness. Unlike the Big 10 the teammates WILL NOT be dropping out to join the NFL, and have their post college plans established. I'd like to see the same out of mainstream universities (big props to University of Chicago).
moonglum:
Fencing, cool! but you just did it for all the (willing) groupies! But not coding for fun, can't believe that, admit it, you're a closeted PERL monk secretly filling up the CPAN archive with awesome hacks!
Mooser, Brian Bell:
The hardest thing in the world (and the worst) is making a dog mean. Getting a feral or simply scared animal nice is so much better!
SteveK, re:
...Getting a feral or simply scared animal nice is so much better!
LOL!
Only for Kharmic purposes is it better -- I got me one of those -- a big fearful mutt.
I'm Muslim but when I read the article I wasn't particularly offended but the comparison. I guess I'm getting used to these kinds of comparisons anyway. It seems to be the bread and butter of a lot of articles.
However, the dog and women disgust comparison is really off and if you don't understand what was happening at the time with dogs in the region then I guess you would think that.
There is an ayat (verse) about 3 men and a dog in the Quran who the Angels protected in a cave. So dogs aren't seen as evil. However, there was a very bad out break of plague that came from the dogs and many people became ill. Over time a order was giving that people couldn't keep certain doors and if they did it was be only for protection or animals etc.. This was later turned into dogs can't live in the home because you pray there and since diseases was so high from dogs at the time, they were forbidden to keep in the home. Over time, long after Muhammed (pbuh) died the ban became more and more strict and with it weird hadiths and cultural myths gave way. However, these hadith contradict the Quran’s protection of the dog in the cave.
Many Saudi's have dogs and they eat better than humans. They just live in their on homes. It’s a special Saudi breed that looks more like a gray hound. It’s just understood that if you let them lick you then you have to wash before prayer.
It you’re bored you can read: http://www.islamicconcern.com/dogs.asp
Lots of people have cats to keep the rodents down and because Muhammad (PBUH) liked cats. I don’t think he ever had one but he loved his friend’s cat that seemed to always be with him just chilling.
2nd: The woman is impure like the dog. hmmmm that was a little weird. There is only 1 hadith that I have seen that says if a woman, a dog or a monkey walks in front of you during prayer then you should pray again. At one point you might see hadiths that prohibit young boys as well because well.. You know.... lol
It wasn't because the woman was dirty.. It’s because men will more than likely stop praying and check her out, which causes a penalty flag on the field and you just have to start over. The same if the woman stops praying for any reason you have to start over. Animals in general tend to be a distraction and so that’s logical. Again, all this has to do with prayer and nothing more.
There is only one time when a woman is considered “unclean” and that is when she is on her period. She is considered “unclean’ to have sex with not unclean because she is a woman. The Quran says this time is a trial, a hurt, and burden on the woman and that man should leave her be until this time has past. Don’t transgress the limits set and be joined with them anyway you please after this time is over for them. Now if culturally people want to add conclusions to this then that’s them and not Islam.
Finally, when a man lowers his gaze he is trying to be respectful. When he withdrawals his hand he is trying to be respectful to you and his wife. It’s not meant to be an insult but a sign of respect. I still shake hands when I'm working but many of those hand shakes weren't just "hand shakes". You know the long hand shake with the thumb rubbing the back of my hand and the dude holding on for way longer than needed. lol Would you rather for him to stare at you boobs or fake like he’s not looking at your boobs while you talk to him? Now all men aren’t running around boob watching mind you, but if you’re a half way decent woman and he is married then it is better for him to respect his wife and show some shyness than to openly scan you. The men can never catch any slack it seems. Either way they are damned if they do and damned it they don’t.
Anyway, most people cheat with people they meet at work and most people marry people they meet while working on the job. So for the Muslim man or woman we are always thinking about this and trying to be mindful of our actions to send a sign that we are off limits so please just don’t try. No man wants a dude feeling up his wife nor does a woman with good sense want a woman feeling up her husband. The Japanese bow low and most cases we Muslims smile and nod and put our hand over our hearts when greeting the opposite sex. Koreans have a thing about touching none family members too, so I really don’t understand what the big deal is. As long as you’re respectfully greeted then why feel so disrespected? It’s not a personal gripe against any of you and it shouldn’t be taken as one.
Brian Bell:
Aww, Reminds me of a St. Bernard I knew in a house with 5+ cats. If there was a catfight he'd be very concerned and sit on them till they made up.
Now that I think on it more the comparison is a bit over sensationalized but probably true. However, a regular 5 times a day praying Muslim man would more than likely get off the elevator or lover his gaze as a sign of respect to the woman.
He doesn't have to be you're cave dwelling extremist Al qeada type at all to assume such behavior. It would all depend on his level of Iman really.
Sadly more dog cruelty from DMX the rapper:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hu...mx-home-raided/
makes you wish for the daisy age of hip hop.
I went through all of the comments and I was surprised to see that no one had really called out the hyperbole. Vick and company killed 6-8 dogs by electrocution, hanging and slamming them to the ground. If those dogs were women I am pretty sure there would be a bit more outrage including a much tougher penalty and a ban from the NFL(as he would be placed on death row). As a matter of law the 'dog is more than a woman' argument isn't even close.
As far as domestic assault and battery against women is concerned, it reflects a sports culture that will do anything to win. When I was going to school one of the star players on the number 1 ranked NCAA basketball team was arrested for burglary. The dumbass Republican DA basically prosecuted him on a lesser charge to protect his eligibility and was promptly voted out of office the next election. It was a gross and unpopular application of player "special treatment". If the fans did not accept their players being beating womanizers this issue would be taken seriously too.
Is the abuse of wives and girlfriends higher percentage wise than it is within the general public? No doubt athletes are treated diffrently, but they have been treated diffrently as long as there have been sports. Most celebs are treated diffrently, (Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan etc) It helps to have a good lawyer. It is certainly not right and the law should be the same for everyone.
I think some of the problem is certainly a lienient judicial system. I am guessing that the punishment for a regular guy is some what diffent than it is for athletes.
I also think that there are many women, for what ever reason, do not want to press charges. There are children involved, or a the woman does does not have a job in which to support her family if she leaves.
In the case of Vick there is plenty of evidence in what he has been involved in. There are generally no witnesses and certainly no video of abuse to women.
I am also wondering what kind of publicity women are looking for in abuse cases. Unless some one (especially a high profile woman) is willing to go public then how are we supposed to know about these cases?
Being that it was Vick that was involved, there is no way the case was not going to generate tons of publicity. If was just some bench warmer, it might have been different.
Thanks to Estes and others who clearly and respectfully explain your political error, Mrs. Robinson.
I hope your current inability to see the contradictions inherent in your "all Muslims..." statement is simply defensiveness and ignorance, not something more fundamental.
You have misquoted me.
The word "all" appeared nowhere in my original statement.
You are putting words in my mouth, and then condemning me for them.
If I did say that I'd have been wrong. But (as I've clarified about three times now), I didn't. And therefore, I stand by what I said.
SteveK: all oh my codeing work is done for cash....my PERL security(SAMS 24 hrs series) book (out early next year, is purly a work for mony issue and nothing to do with my geekeyness or some sick desier to code in my downtime 
I wish i could find a list of NFL players arrested for spousal abuse.
whos the moran that said mike vick was banned for life? hey stupid he wasnt even cut from the team let alone banned..get your facts right you dumbass blogger and while youre still writting hate blogs when that dude get out of jail he will still be rich if he even goes to jail and your pitiful ass will still blogging..fuck you and those dogs they are anilmals
animals....kill them all who cares you fuckin dick head tree hugger and who ever loves the dogs!!
Commenting by HaloScan
