More to the point, it's time for Hillary to say exactly what role Bill would play if she won the White House. What he would do, what he would not do, what limits she would put on his activities, and how she could enforce them. That's if she could, at all.
BTW, as of this moment, according to MSNBC, Hillary is no longer in South Carolina and has left Bill behind to give the 2nd place pep talk to the campaign workers. So he's been first her attack dog, and now her clean-up crew. All this without the slightest indication of whether she approves of his actions or not.
This is getting downright creepy.
Bill is not going anywhere, thank you. Anymore than Obama went away after New Hampshire.
Fortunately for the Democratic party this will play through multiple states. Anything that brings our voters out and attracts attention to our candidates is a great thing.
Unfortunately for the professional Clinton haters and concern trolls, Hilary will likely emerge the winner. Then she will go on -- like any other Democratic nominee this year -- to win the White House.
The real question for the more rabid Obama supporters at this point is how far do they want to push their vitriol? At this point, it embarrasses Obama by making him look weak and splits the Party.
Lets focus on his policy differences with Hilary -- to the extent they even exist -- rather than how "mean" Bill is being to him. For god's sake Obama is a Senator and was a high powered attorney. He is more than capable of taking care of himself.
After watching the News Hour last night (Friday) I became even more convinced that the efforts to smear Obama were producing a backlash. The results from South Carolina tonight would seem to confirm. What we don't know is the extent the backlash will carry over to Super Tuesday. Maybe people have some ideas on this question...
"For god's sake Obama is a Senator and was a high powered attorney. He is more than capable of taking care of himself."
-...and he proved it in South Carolina.
@Cath..
Oh rest assured that CLinton's win won't be as much of a cake walk in the general as u seem to think Cath..
I for one won't be voting for her and I'm not the only Black person she's managed to piss off...
So we shall see.
Let's also not forget that when Kerry gave his support to Obama it was more than just token support - it was his and Howard Deans database of millions of email addresses of progressives who supported Dean first then Kerry (see Web Ink Now)with millions of dollars of contributions. Not to mention the viral marketing capabilities of such a list. As Web Ink Now states, the MSM is not talking about this but this is a very significant advantage for Obama. The people who supported Dean and Kerry are the real progressives, the ones who want significant change (not that I think that really represents Obama or Clinton)not more of the same, and Clinton is more of the same. Steve T. is right - it is well past time for Hillary to define, to a t, exactly what Bill's role would be in a Clinton White House. Trouble is she would couch it in such terms that it would be undefined or flat out lie.
Great theme song!
I'm drunk and I first thought I was hearing Hot Chocolate (*that* would be a good song).
Cath,
The party was never united anyway, there has been deep divisions in the democratic party for more than 20 years. Also how come Billary have so much fire in their belly when it comes to attacking Obama but when it comes to the republicans & bush not so much,
So you happen to think that your dlc dino is better than another dlc dino? If many people saw it your way and there was no divisions based on race, class, gender, upbringing, and personality the dems would be a united party.
Lastly, Hilary has to get the nomination the way people get respect, by earning it. No candidate deserves to be elected. If the clintons are not careful and she gets the nomination may progressives who remember the campaign & the nineties might stay home.
Well, JJ, I can't help you there.
I've spent my whole life voting for Democratic candidates I didn't really like. Why? I knew the alternative was worse.
The last eight years of Bush/Cheney has driven that lesson home in ways beyond my deepest fears.
So no one is going to force you or anyone else to vote for Hilary in the general. But by staying home you have voted for the Republican Party. Maybe that's the right choice for you because you think it will force the Democrats to take your concerns more seriously. (By the way, been there, done that -- doesn't work.)
But I believe it's the wrong choice for our country. None of us have that luxury anymore.
However, thanks for confirming my earlier posting about the Obama supporters splitting the party. Now look in the mirror and decide what's more important -- how pissed off you are or the future of all our kids
No Cath,
The Clinton machine has tried to split the party. Winning is everything to them.
Bill has even gone so far as to poison chances for McCain by saying that McCain and Hillary are close.
Hillary will never get my vote.
Tenacitus, I fully understand the Divisions in the Democratic party because I'm living proof of them. As a working class, lesbian lawyer in an interracial relationship my concerns and identity get trashed every single god dammed election.
But I understand -- better than apparently some others here -- that a quarter loaf is better than none at all. I also recognize that my education and skin privilege give me far more opportunities to ride these elections out. Those privileges do not stop me, however, from working to elect the party who represents the broadest number of Americans.
I wanted Gore -- settled for Edwards -- moved to Hilary over Obama after evaluating both her experience and greater willingness to engage the Republicans.
My biggest gripe with Obama lies in his apparent disdain for partisanship. Sorry, there are genuine differences between the democrats and republicans; especially as the republican party is currently defined. His strategy might have worked in 2000 and possibly - no not really -- in 2004. When I hear him insinuate that the Clintons are to blame for those divisions, I really lose it. It defies common sense.
But will I support him with time and money if he wins the nomination? Hell yes. No matter how annoying I find him or his supporters.
This is weird. Hillary's making her speech now. But does South Carolina have a Nashville? I'm confused, but if half a dozen states have a Springfield, I guess it's OK, then.
Let's also not forget that when Kerry gave his support to Obama it was more than just token support - it was his and Howard Deans database of millions of email addresses of progressives who supported Dean first then Kerry (see Web Ink Now)with millions of dollars of contributions.
Raise of hands here. Who still has the same email address they had 4 years ago? I'm 42 and living in the same house as I was in 2004 and that was still 3 email addresses ago.
In any event, I do think the whole focus on the Big Dog Bill has is really tending to hurt Hillary and help Obama. It really diminishes her I think to have Bill out there winging it on her behalf. And I think it diminishes him as well as the senior statesman of the party to be getting this down and dirty.
I for one am not really a committed supporter of any candidate. Going into the season I was thinking Edwards but I doubt he'll still be around when this thing finally rolls into Texas. But at this point my thinking is that there really isn't much policy difference between the two but one heck of a lot of style difference. I'm leaning towards Obama on that alone. It would just be so much cooler to have the Obamas in the White House than Clinton II. I really think we need to move forward and I'm afraid the Clinton group are too focused on trying to replay the 90s but this time not make so many mistakes.
In any event, I teach HS science and this year's HS graduating class was born in the 2nd or 3rd year of the Bush I presidency. They deserve to reach their mid-20s having had someone other than a Bush or Clinton in the White House.
"Steve T. is right - it is well past time for Hillary to define, to a t, exactly what Bill's role would be in a Clinton White House."
-Too late.
"Oh rest assured that CLinton's win won't be as much of a cake walk in the general as u seem to think Cath.."
"I for one won't be voting for her and I'm not the only Black person she's managed to piss off..."
-I second that.
The one thing that unnerves me about this campaign so far is the seeming belief among so many Dems that this will be a cake walk into the White House for whomever wins the nomination. That thinking really scares me. People thought Gore was going to skip into the White House too and so farted around with Nader.
Elections are rarely cake walks in this country and the Republican money and slime machine will be out in full force. Republicans have every advantage with the electoral college structure and while I think Dems probably have the advantage this year I'll still be biting my nails until this is all over.
"However, thanks for confirming my earlier posting about the Obama supporters splitting the party. Now look in the mirror and decide what's more important -- how pissed off you are or the future of all our kids"
Cath
-Gee, I wonder if Bill & Hillary Clinton were concerned about the future of our kids when they used the race card against Obama?
No, I didn't think so either.
"Elections are rarely cake walks in this country and the Republican money and slime machine will be out in full force. Republicans have every advantage with the electoral college structure and while I think Dems probably have the advantage this year I'll still be biting my nails until this is all over."
Kent
-Election 2000 taught me not to go to bed too early.
Oh yeah, and Hillary's non-concession speech. Yep, fuck you very much, South Carolina, but here's Bill. Oh, wait. Edwards congratulated Obama on Clinton's behalf, so I guess that's taken care of. Still, it looks like a signal to campaign workers in any state that can't deliver that they won't get the time of day from Hillary (or Bill). I mean, I know she'll be in California and Bill will be in Texas or something like that, but still.
So in Tennessee she looked like a lawyer delivering a summation in front of bored jurors, while Obama looked just plain great and sounded like Jesse Jackson in Cannonball Adderley's "Country Preacher" sez the missus.
Yeah, yeah, I know Obama's a bit vague, but he'll get Democrats out to vote and they'll vote in progressives and not DLC stiffs. Don't misunderestimate the power of inspiring people to give a damn about politics.
-Gee, I wonder if Bill & Hillary Clinton were concerned about the future of our kids when they used the race card against Obama?
No, I didn't think so either.
Amen
Cath,
Though I'm black identoty politics are not my issue. I think that though race, gender, & sexuality are important they are not the most important thing. Obama & Rice who are upper class millionaires only have the black experience in common with me. { disagree with the foreign policies of all three candidates some of those differences are irreconcilable, Also many progressives are tired of machine politics as well as dems focusing more energy on suppressing leftists than on opposing the conservatives.
LowerManhattanite expressed my views on the campaigns in his MLK day post on the Obama-Clinton fight. and I think that if they bith continue the trend many folks will end up saying fuck it
Cath,
Don't waste your breath. I just had to walk out on my father-in-law over this stupid shit. Blacks have completely lost their collective minds with this bi-racial candidate, whose black roots, btw, are one generation away from Africa, unlike most of us whose ancestors were brought here in slave ships. I preface it this way as a way of pointing out my own history of feeling this passionate long ago in '88 over Jesse Jackson and his Rainbow Coalition.
Yes, I can hear the derision from many of you. Jackson, you say? Be serious! But the '88 Jackson was not the present-day Jackson, who btw registered some 7 million voters which included many latinos, Native Americans and low income whites. But of course, Jackson carried baggage and was not the 'annointed articulate, safe golden child' that Obama is. Jackson did not get the kid glove treatment by the media that Obama is getting. The 'hymie town' comment was aired daily as well as ties to Farrakahn.
But being black, that was not my problem and I was stuck on the idea of a black man, who to me was just as qualified as the man who did get it, getting a shot at the WH and when it didn't happen I did the the unthinkable because I was determined to show the Democratic Party that they couldn't take my vote for granted.
I didn't stay home. Only slaves don't vote. I voted for - and I choke on my own spit as I say this - for Bush 1. Actually, it was the same difference. Had I stayed home it still would have counted as a vote for a Rethug. But I wanted my vote to be counted in the demographic, living in a black community. I wanted to SHOW them, that yes I could in fact vote the other guy if you take my vote for granted. NOTHING IS ETCHED IN STONE.
And like Cath so succinctly put it: "been there, done that -- doesn't work." It was a really tough nut to swallow, made even harder when I learned that Jackson sold his people out, abandoned his own Rainbow Coalition (this is when the present-day Jackson began to emerge very clearly), and I had to endure 4 more years of Reagan, a Gulf War and wasn't there a recession, too? If I had it to do over, I would vote for Dukakis. I was wrong.
But live and learn. And I've learned a lot of lessons over the years especially since 9/11. I no longer allow the media to interpret the news for me. Not since their COLLOSSAL FAILURE at letting Bush take us to war on a lie. These are people who would rather report on Britney Spears not wearing underwear. I figure a lot of men have jerked off incessantly while visualizing Bill Clinton getting his infamous BJ in the Oval Office. All of that salacious gossip is way more important than healthcare, the economy, THE IRAQ WAR, the big lie about no WMDs. It must be so, because Bush/Cheney are still in the WH, unimpeached.
So when I say to my black brothers and sisters that I'm not focused on the Primary Season, that my focus is on November. I'm serious. I carefully put the news events together on my own, reading it in black and white. I have listened to the speeches if they are aired in their entirety, then turn off the commentators as well as any comments from the reporters' carefully chosen average Joes or Janes. I've mostly stayed away from the debates and the few times I've listened in for 5 minutes or so, I found Kucinich to be the one who is actually SAYING things of substance. The rest are not saying anything but carefully structured political rhetoric. And that includes Obama.
But more important is this: REAL CHANGE ain't gonna happen no matter who's President. The country simply doesn't work that way. Although I regret my vote in '88. I still survived and if the truth be told with only 11 months and counting, it looks like I have survived these wretched Bush years. They've been some of the ugliest years of my life, but I have almost made it through. By God, I WILL make it to see this ratprick get out of office!!
I'm not turning cartwheels for any of these guys and Hillary is included in that generic 'guys'. Whoever wins the nom will get my vote. On Super Tuesday, I will cast my vote for Hillary and for this reason: Obama's lack of experience especially with the USA on the verge of a serious economic meltdown. My parents were Depression children. I'm a stone's throw away from Senior status, I simply don't want to have to live through that. Whoever is President is going to have to swap spit with the power brokers. I have finally accepted that nothing short of a revolution will change that. Obama may have this youth vote locked up, but we are not talking about '60s mentality youth. We're talking about the current crop of i-pod, internet, video game, instant gratification, spoiled kids who CAN'T COOK let alone live without their cell phones. We ain't hardly talking revolution. So President Obama, will play politics if it comes down to him. I have my doubts about how well he can play that game. I have no doubts about Hillary, or even Edwards who is very shrewd and not trying to ride this out only on his 'good looks.'
Politics is ugly. Period. Obama will get my vote in November and I will do so enthusiastically, because in spite of my reservations, he's a Democrat and I want him to win. I want him to prove me wrong. I have no problem with that. Because a smart person learns from their own mistakes; a wise one, however, learns from the mistakes of others.
This election is not about me. But more important, it ain't about black people either. Time for black people to take their hearts off their sleeves and deal with that.
@mimi
You nor Cath gets it..
And I'm sorry you don't.
But all us young folk aren't
We're talking about the current crop of i-pod, internet, video game, instant gratification, spoiled kids who CAN'T COOK let alone live without their cell phones.
And regardless of who's President there's a Depression coming...those cards have been dealt.
The best thing to do now is to prefer for it as best you can.
This "country" could give a damn about me. Katrina taught me that and I'll be damned if I give my vote to someone who intentionally gave me their ass to kiss and then said..."Oh by the way...we need you."
They (Democrats) need us to win. Don't believe me? Try winning Michigan, Pennsylvania, Illinois without Detroit, Philadelphia or Chicago. And so on.
So an older generation of Black folk can keep playing I'll vote for the Democrats because the Republicans are worse game.
But I say fuck that. You want my vote then you better earn it 'cause its no longer a guarantee...and I'm not the only "youngin'" who feels that way.
Obama offers hope and youth... he is the future. Compare his two young daughters to every other candidates children and you will see why he will work harder for a better America.
I really don't want to play gender or racial politics because I am neither a woman nor black. It simply doesn't matter to me on that level. What does matter is who can lead and who do I want trying to clean up the mess made by George Bush and the Republicans. I think Obama is that leader.
I'll vote for whoever is the candidate but I will caucus for Obama next month.
This is turning into DailyKos on this blog post.
Oh ho she didn't! Snap! He dydnt! She did! He did! Ohhhhh snaaaaap!
Quick make a diary hit piece to prove your point!
I need my fix nooooow!
We're talking about the current crop of i-pod, internet, video game, instant gratification, spoiled kids who CAN'T COOK let alone live without their cell phones.
Yeah right. I'm 42 and I teach HS science. Today's kids are basically the same as any other generation of kids. Every first period I'm waking up kids who work late into the night on weeknights. Not to buy iPhones but to help their single mom pay the rent. I have kids going into the Army because they see it as their only hope of getting ahead. Knowing full well it's a coach class ticket to Iraq. I have kids for whom school is the only safe place in their lives.
Yeah they have iPods and play video games. So what? I had a row of albums 6' long in my freshman dorm room in 1982 and I spent half my free time in HS playing Pac Man. My Dad grew up in the 50s listening to AM radio, collecting 78s and playing pinball. Nothing ever really changes.
>So an older generation of Black folk can keep playing I'll vote for the Democrats because the Republicans are worse game.<
But the point is--the Republicans _are_ worse. And for folks (young and old) like you to act like spoiled children and act as if not voting will do anything but put McCain in office...well, you need to grow the fuck up. Sticking to ideological purity out of sheer cussedness, with no regard for the big picture, _kills_ people. Did the last eight years, not to mention Katrina, teach you nothing?!
Yes, the Republican reactionaries are worse. But people are tiring of the emotional blackmail and the threats. People figure that if they can endure Bush, they can survive a 72 year old McCain who would probably die half-way through his first term.For all their loyal voting, they have not been given anything other than putdowns for their actually buying the argument, especially from Clinton and company who signed our jobs away with Nafta, and who couldn't keep it in his pants to avoid possible blackmail. Sorry...been there, done that.
The argument is a loser among Dems now. And with a growing number of independents, it's a non-starter to begin with as far as getting them off the couch. Recovering Republicans, ditt
And the voting in that case would be split: downticket votes will go to Congress and the state legislatures, without which a President can't do all that much. Tip ONeal did a pretty good job of obstructing the worst of the Republican excesses, and there's a lot that hasn't happened because we have a Dem Congress now. Several of the most extreme Bush appointees dropped out knowing they will never have a chance.
So a strong Congress, (likely to get stronger) will do much. So bah on the HillBill crowd and their emotional blackmail. Go Obama and Edwards!
By every measure in this country people who look like me are at the BOTTOM of the economic ladder.
That's the Big Picture
That the men of my ethnic group are locked up or killed at alarmingly high rates.
That the Big Picture
That women who look like me are more likely to die from AIDS, Cancers , Diabetes and High Blood pressure and are more like to be raped then any other group in this country.
That's the Big Picture
Women who look like me don't outlive their men. We're the only group not too.
That's the Big Picture
65 - 85% of people in this country who look like me are poor or working class.
That's the Big Picture
Black folks have consistently and overwhelmingly voted Democratic since forever. So exactly what have we gotten?
Oh but I'm supposed t see "The Big Picture."
The Big Picture is that Republicans AND Democrat have given Black folks their ass to kiss for an awful long time.
And it's time for us to pick our lips up and go somewhere else. So save me the bullshit arguments cause I've heard them ALL before. And that my frien, is The Big Picture.
Think about this. I'm as "yellow dog" a Democrat as anyone, and I vote every election. But I swear if HillBill gets this one, I'll just skip the Presidency unless its Guiliani (which, thankfully isn't going to happen) and vote for everybody else.
We're talking about the current crop of i-pod, internet, video game, instant gratification, spoiled kids who CAN'T COOK let alone live without their cell phones.
I hate to be the young bitch but fuck it. Oh and the same to you.
And by the way even if your lazy bit of ageist bs was true just WHO made sure they were so useless?
I can never understand why people find it logical and necessary to blame the horrible state of the world or fret about the future based on people who are IN THEIR TEENS.
Parents fuck up the world not children.
You want to know why young folks like me are going for Obama? Because we are tired of older folks dropping their psychoses and neuroses on us.
I'm sorry you were traumatized by Vietnam, Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and whoever else. You all are making it hard if not impossible to give a crap about getting a real history lesson and actually listening to you because your recollections and rhetoric are less about learning from the past but continuing some sorry ass drama and politics that resulted in the GOP gaining power in the first place.
Those are your mistakes not ours.
Just stop it.
"This "country" could give a damn about me. Katrina taught me that and I'll be damned if I give my vote to someone who intentionally gave me their ass to kiss and then said..."Oh by the way...we need you."
-Bill and Hillary Clinton are supposed
to be these great policy wonks.
As I told a friend of mine, it was OK when Obama was a novelty, but when he became a competitor, Hillary (and by extension, Bill) went straight for the race card.
They didn't talk policy; they went right to the gutter.
Fuck them both.
They won't get my vote.
>People figure that if they can endure Bush, they can survive a 72 year old McCain who would probably die half-way through his first term....<
Do you really want to bet all the marbles (including the Supreme Court) on that? (Nobody thought Cheney would last a term, much less eight years, but...) And how much more free-market crap--or Iraq--do you think this country's economy can stand? And why the hell should anyone have to "endure" the GOP when better alternatives are available? You can't seriously be suggesting that McCain is a better bet than Hillary when you look at the issues across the board.
Re: JJ's Big Picture. So, you think the GOP will give more of a damm about any of the problems you mentioned, huh?
>And it's time for us to pick our lips up and go somewhere else.<
And do what with what, exactly--if the GOP gets back in there? Do things have to get _worse_ for you to want to lower your ideological nose and deign to want to try to stop this mess? But maybe that is the point, come to think of it. Waiting for the perfect candidate gives you an excuse not to do shit, doesn't it? Better to sulk and suffer than to do anything, right?
"And do what with what, exactly--if the GOP gets back in there? Do things have to get _worse_ for you to want to lower your ideological nose and deign to want to try to stop this mess? But maybe that is the point, come to think of it. Waiting for the perfect candidate gives you an excuse not to do shit, doesn't it? Better to sulk and suffer than to do anything, right?"
-In my opinion, Bill & Hillary Clinton made a calculation to use the race card to take Obama out of the race for the White House.
They did that, knowing that the majority of blacks vote Democratic and that those votes would definitely be needed in November.
As I stated before, instead of talking policy to blunt Obama's surge, Bill, Hillary, and her surrogates went right to the race card.
I am not rewarding her and them for this bullshit.
Let Hillary "try to stop this mess."
After all, SHE started it.
And it wasn't necessary.
Commenting by HaloScan
