Here's the story. The cell phone market is one that's pretty much tapped out. Most people who are going to get one, have one. So in order to maintain Wall Street required profit growth, the companies need to squeeze more and more money out of their customers. And thus you have stuff like this.
It's really simple as that.
Apple really hurt their brand just by stepping into that swamp, unfortunately. They really should have just released the iPod Touch as a full-fledged PDA with the Wi-Fi and Bluetooth connectivity, and that was that. But what they have is a locked down phone that you have to get in the swamp for, OR a iPod device that should have more functionality, but is nerfed so you'll buy the phone.
What's REALLY going to hurt Apple is their losing focus away from their OS X/Mac line of business, but that's a different story.
And now Apple may have cause to seek to nullify their contract with AT&T and begin to offer iPhone through other providers.
I'm not suggesting Apple went into it with the expectation that AT&T would put their foot in it after an initial product launch and subsequent price lowering for the device, but this was not an entirely unpredictable situation.
But, I am certain that someone, somewhere inside Apple was thinking - "frickin' AT&T - no way do they NOT fuck this up." and took steps to be sure the arrangement would allow Apple some degree of free agency if the relationship had adverse affects on Apple customers.
And now Apple may have cause to seek to nullify their contract with AT&T [...]
kenga | 09.12.07 - 5:11 am
Interesting thought. I understand Apple needed a partner to get into the game, and I'm glad they talked AT&T into very reasonable monthly rates (as I mentioned on the rebate thread, I'm paying $25 less a month than I was for my Treo). But I wouldn't trust any phone company any further than I could, uh, throw them. I *expect* them to screw me eventually on price or service, which is why I never considered for a moment buying my iPhone from an AT&T store, even if supplies had dried up at the Apple Store.
The fact that Apple still insists on making it nearly impossible for their customers to replace their batteries on any iPod product is reason enough not to buy an iPhone. To be fair, almost every maker of mp3 players seem to have this absurd notion though it doesn't excuse Apple for doing the same thing with the iPhone.
Funny thing- you can cell phone service most anywhere in the world except Northern New Mexico (I was just there). I'd consider moving there for that reason alone. 
Thanks to crappy legislation passed by a weak Congress who took mega-payola from lobbyists representing monopolies like AT&T, you have, well, monopolies, and the consumer getting ripped the hell off, again.
A monopoly doesn't worry about customer service because they are a monopoly (I went to VONAGE; they were worse in service, but they get props for customer service, because they know an unsatisfied customer will sign up with AT&T, T-Mobile, Comcast, Sprint, or whoever the hell is out there offering wireless service.
I blame the government, because in his haste to out-do the ReThugs, Bill Clinton opened the door for monopolies by elimination of legislative protections that would have prevented this shyt. George Bush just took it to a whole 'nother level.
The fact that Apple still insists on making it nearly impossible for their customers to replace their batteries on any iPod product is reason enough not to buy an iPhone. To be fair, almost every maker of mp3 players seem to have this absurd notion though it doesn't excuse Apple for doing the same thing with the iPhone.
Path | 09.12.07 - 5:36 am
I can understand an individual decision-making process that says "I'm a hardcore road warrior; I would be using my iPhone constantly as phone, iPod, *and* video player; therefore I can expect to drain my battery frequently, in situations where I can't find a power outlet, and I can't afford to be without backup." Path, I'm assuming you fall into this category or something like it.
What I can't understand is why people translate this into a blanket condemnation of the iPhone -- or, as in your case -- almost all MP3 players. How often do most people really need to change the battery on their cell phone, PDA, or MP3 player? I would think it's a very small but vocal minority. Very few of us have requirements like the road warrior in my example.
Oh, and something y'all should know about "AT&T": It's really Texas-based SBC after having bought out AT&T and taking on the name of the older, more reputable company to further their voracious interests.
US Blues
The N. AZ strip (north of the ditch and south of the Utah border) has fairly lousy cell-phone service too.
As someone who crosses that area at least a few times a month, my colleagues and I put our phones on the dashboard and watch the connection bars disappear once we get 15 miles north of home. Occasionally, I'll get out of the car and climb up a cliff and point the antenna at the towers on the cliffs near Page, AZ and I can get a faint (one-bar, WOO-HOO!) signal, but that's about it.
Sadly, I'm sure that area will be overrun in the next 20 years. I spend about 3 weeks in the canyon every year on river trips and you'd be amazed at how many folks want their phones to work at the bottom of a gorge like that.
That said, it's too bad. I've had a cell phone for 9 years now, and I'm finally in the market for a new one. I've been looking really, really hard at the iPhone (mostly the cool factor) because all of the associated "problems" that have been mentioned are in areas that won't factor into my work/use at all. But, this is big trouble as far as me going to get an iPhone. Damn, and I so wanted to get an iPod too, and in the same device!
However, taking your phone on vacation? Ummm....it's not a vacation if your phone is with you is my take on it. So when I travel to the Caribbean or over to Monaco next year, I'll be sure to leave the "goddamn-twitter-box" at home
The iPhone is now unlocked from AT&T, thanks to the work of a bunch of dedicated folk. Not a hardware hack. Software. And free.
Still requires some command line work, but is a solid hack. They're working on making it graphical so you don't even need to drop to the CL to set it up.
I may run a post on this tonight or in a day or two once there's a bit more.
Bottom line: you can use your iPhone with any GSM provider in the world, with TMOBILE in the U.S.
It's a brand new day.
Also... you can load unlock the brain-damage Apple did to your box, loading SCP and other standard tools. Meaning you truly have a full computer in your hands. It really is a glorious day.
AT&T certainly screws their customers, but these people are also really stupid. Take a cell phone out of the country, and you usually get hit with massive roaming charges, if the phone works at all. Anyone who wants to do this, and has half a brain, calls up their cell provider and asks them if the phone will work in whichever country, and what the charges will be. I havent been out of the country in a decade, and dont even own a cell phone right now, but I still know this. This reminds me of the old stereotype of American tourists, that they are loud, ignorant, arrogant, and think that every country should be exactly the same as the US.
Caveat emptor.
Boy I sure hope apple and google go splitsies on that wireless spectrum and make something that doesn't suck.
Sorry, snoozer. You are wrong about the batteries. So is Path.
The Creative Zen I use has a user-serviceable battery. I have a fully charged spare in a carrying case in my backpack as I write this.
But MP3 player batteries are relatively small potatoes. The battery that is important is the one in your cell phone. I am on my third cell phone in seven years.
The battery on the first, a Nokia, went west within the first 18 months. Wouldn't hold a charge. Had to be replaced.
The battery on the second, another Nokia, went west in only 15 months.
Thanks to the planned obsolescence used by AT&T/Cingular to screw its customers over, I was, at that point, forced to buy a cell phone I did not want.
The new phone, a Samsung, started having battery issues less than six months after purchase. I now have no less than two spare batteries for the Samsung in that same carrying case. Fully charged.
Poor quality batteries in as-purchased cell phones are one of the unreported scams of the cell phone industry.
When I read about the iPhone design, I was not surprised. Since Apple Computer has a sordid history of customer lock-in that goes back to the days of the original Macintosh. I decided right then and there that there was NFW I was going to come within a mile of an iPhone until and unless they fixed the battery issue. This had "Marketing Scam" stamped all over it in fluorescent letters six feet high. And sure enough .....
Now, AT&T is fucking the customers in the other orifice. Well, they already knew they had suckers on their hands. Did they not?
The iPhone is now unlocked from AT&T, thanks to the work of a bunch of dedicated folk. Not a hardware hack. Software. And free.
LOL.
I KNEW this was going to happen.
EVERY SINGLE TIME some halfwit decides to trumpet how their gear only works with the partner-in-crime of that particular day, it is a foregone conclusion that smart kids with heads for hardware are going to make these people into public laughingstocks.
Pride goeth before a fall.
I may not be a Christian, but they're right about that one.
EVERY SINGLE TIME some halfwit decides to trumpet how their gear only works with the partner-in-crime of that particular day, it is a foregone conclusion that smart kids with heads for hardware are going to make these people into public laughingstocks.
Pride goeth before a fall.
Stormcrow -
a) Yes. So far no one has made a DVD, OS, or phone which hasn't been fairly promptly cracked.
Known exceptions include PGP and qmail, neither of which is attempting to simultaneously keep content secure while providing access to the content.
In PGP's content, when the content is secure, it is secure. When it is readable, yep, readable. All cracks have been traceable not to anything with the underlying algorithm but user error (for example, using the same passphrase to encrypt two different messages/virtual drives) or implementation flaws. The problem is not going to be the underlying math; it will be how the OS leaves traces of work in ram drives (in windows, the Virtual Memory; Linux and Mac's have their equivalents). qmail -- one of the leading server-based mail programs (it sends email around the world and stores email at the server level for ISP and big companies and universities) has an outstanding (since 1999) $500 reward for a successful break, payable by its creator. The reward has never been awarded. Ever.
b) Programs which necessarily must be open while also trying to keep the data from being taken, such as movies, music, and telephones, will always be broken. There have never been nor will there ever be any exceptions to this rule.
Trying to put legal and technical locks on data to protect your business plan just pisses off customers. Instead, build a better business instead that gives your customers more of what they want at a better price.
You gunkey. (Those businesses; not you Stormcrow. Heh.)
There are persistent rumors that the DoD can crack PGP -- when they really want to. They're about the only ones with the spare computing power to do it. You've got to tie up a big damn computer or two for quite a while (hours/days), so they really gotta wanna: they're not going to do it just to read your e-mail, or mine.
But the cryptoheads I know take it for granted that if they're serious enough about reading someone's data to commit the resources, it's doable.
Uh, based on my experience there's that stretch of I-57 in Illinois south of Kankakee and north of Rantoul that doesn't get cell phone coverage either....
I keep hoping I'll never have a breakdown in that stretch.
It's unfortunate for Apple that they're forced to deal with extortionate telcoms so their product can get network access.
However, Apple already does a good job of damaging it's own brand as evidenced by their fleecing of their most loyal customers when the iPhone was released just a couple months ago.
Jobs' penchant for secrecy isn't exactly conducive to planning purchases of Apple products, either since no one knows their product plans. Or at least they didn't know in the past. Maybe Jobs releases detailed product roadmaps now, but they didn't used to and that's why I don't buy his stuff, nice as it may be.
I think Apple fanatics (and they are cultish) are gluttons for punishment. The more extreme ones are dangerously close to being the consumer versions of wingnuts.
While I'm bitching about Apple can we stop the breathless spasms of ecstacy everytime Jobs unveils his latest upgrade of a fairly standard product? He's not introducing Segways or something that hasn't already been dreamed up elsewhere...
I apologize to Apple's oh-so-hip, well-trained consumers I clearly (and probably wrongly) have created a caricature in my mind based on the craziest Apple fans and tarred almost everyone with it.
cingular wireless (now att) has always sucked in customer service, afaik. they were notorious for charging roaming fees for local calls back in the day and good luck getting through to customer service before your battery went out
There are persistent rumors that the DoD can crack PGP -- when they really want to. They're about the only ones with the spare computing power to do it.
There are always rumors that the USG can pull miracles, good or evil, take your pick, out of its ass.
In this case, those rumors hit right slap-bang up against an open source tradition that beat Richard Stallman to the tape by more than a century.
I'm talking about open source cryptography. That was one of the few surprises I got handed in the part of the CISSP boot camp on crypto.
From the cryptography wikipedia page ..
It was finally recognized in the 19th century that secrecy of a cipher's algorithm is not a sensible or practical safeguard; in fact, any adequate cryptographic scheme (including ciphers) should remain secure even if the adversary knows the cipher algorithm itself. Secrecy of the key should alone be sufficient for confidentiality when under attack — for good ciphers. This fundamental principle was first explicitly stated in 1883 by Auguste Kerckhoffs and is generally called Kerckhoffs' principle; alternatively and more bluntly, it was restated by Claude Shannon as Shannon's Maxim — 'the enemy knows the system'.
Today, a cipher system is not considered "sound" until it has been subjected to merciless and prolonged attack, by experts, publically (results published for all to read), over a period of years.
This was why the "skipjack" algorithm and the Clipper chip never evoked any reaction from the professional community past horselaughs and contempt. A secret algorithm is always considered to be snake-oil until it is proven not to be. But then, of course, the algorithm is no longer secret. And its author, if he is smart, does not care.
You fear your enemies computing power? If your algorithm is sound, then just get yourself a longer key for your cipher. Your foe's pain grows in geometric proportion to the key length, not in arithmetic proportion.
Double a key length of 512 bits to 1024 bits, and your foe will have to spend 2^512 the original length of time to break your cipher by brute force methods. Which is all a sound algorithm and a sound key selection should leave him.
2^512 is on the order of 10 followed by 154 zeroes.
Those odds really suck.
If your foe's algorithm is not sound, then a longer key isn't going to help him very much. You attack the unsound algorithm, and take his commo the way the Allies took the cipher traffic the Germans had encrypted with Enigma.
If you are trying to crack a cryptogram whose algorithm you believe to be sound, then if you cannot practically attack the key (remember those odds?), you will generally elect to attack the wits of the man who chooses it.
Maybe he uses a dictionary word? A phrase? A bit of poetry? His Social? If your opponent chooses one, or any, of these possibilities, then your problem is drastically simplified. Then, perhaps, that half square mile of supercomputers you have tucked away in a collection of windowless anonymous buildings in the suburbs of Langley can pay off.
But if your opponent has his thinking cap on, you are screwed. Until and unless one of the following things happens ...
(1) Somebody with a Ph.D. in number theory and about two dozen papers under his belt, and two or three of his buddies, manage to shoot big wide sloppy holes in the algorithm your opponent used. Which has been known to happen. Example: the German "Enigma" cipher.
(2) You buy that shiny new quantum supercomputer. Yeah, this is science fiction right now. LOL
(3) You steal or buy your opponent's key. Or he leaves it in the clear on a thumb drive .....
(4) An angel of God comes down from Heaven and miracles you the key, the plaintext, or both.
(5) The heat death of the universe happens.
Sorry Stormcrow, your data is anecdotal. I asked how often *most people* change their batteries, not how often *you* have had to. I'm open to the answer being higher than I suspect it is, but not based on one person's experience.
If I thought individual anecdotes were relevant to the battery issue I would have reported my own experiences.
The other *relevant* data is what kind of battery is actually in the iPhone -- not what's historically been in other phones. Is it a good battery? A bad battery?
Apple is definitely good at fucking up, when it fucks up. But there is also plenty of poor reporting, FUD, and faulty logic out there.
(I thought this thread was dead, or I'd have chimed in sooner. Serves me right for not subscribing to followup comments.)
I think Apple fanatics (and they are cultish) [...]
Billy Joe | Homepage | 09.12.07 - 7:22 pm
How so? Would you describe Group News Blog readers as cultish?
Snoozer,
Sorry about the delay in responding.
The newsgroup people that I know are not cultish, but can you deny the cult-of-personality that surrounds Steve Jobs, and his company, by extension? It has been around as long as Apple itself has. And there is no denying the breathlessness that accompanies every new Apple product introduction by Jobs, no matter how mundane or uninspired (i-Mac, anyone?).
I've noticed a new dynamic, as well. many of Apple's most enthusastic supporters appear to be Apple stockholders which wasn't necessarily the case in the past but it makes their fandom that much more over-the-top.
I do think Apple fans have a cult-like devotion to Macs and Apple products. I don't know if that carries over into, say, their political lives. But with regards to their product loyalty, I think they definitely tend towards the consumer version of wingnuts.
And I stand by my assertion that the most fanatical among them are well-trained consumers. I know Apple's marketing department wants them to think they're world-changing, creative geniuses, but it certainly doesn't stop Apple from fleecing them when the opportunity presents itself as it did with the iPhone, a phone that is probably 6~12 months ahead of it's time.
Sorry... I don't see why liberals, for example, would be able to see thru the marketing campaigns of every other company but not notice the same tactics being used on them by Apple. As far as I'm concerned, Apple is no different.
Based on what I've read (and I've read a couple of books about Jobs/Apple) I think Jobs himself sounds like a jerk and a secretive one at that. I've never understood the fanaticism of his supporters. Frankly, I hope it doesn't carry over into their political lives.
The newsgroup people that I know are not cultish, but can you deny the cult-of-personality that surrounds Steve Jobs
I'm familiar with the so-called "reality distortion field" that surrounds Jobs. I don't deny that he is extraordinarily charismatic. So is Bill Clinton. Doesn't make it right or wrong.
And there is no denying the breathlessness that accompanies every new Apple product introduction by Jobs, no matter how mundane or uninspired (i-Mac, anyone?).
There is indeed a super-high level of anticipation surrounding product introductions. The question is, once the introduction's been made, do people turn off their critical thinking and rush to buy the product simply because Dear Leader told them to?
Steve's endorsement didn't save the Cube. AppleTVs haven't exactly been flying off the shelves. It's been pointed out that the entire user base of .Mac is only about the number of Macs Apple sells in a *quarter*.
I think you're right that the latest iMac is uninspired, basically some incremental improvements over the previous model. And you know what? I've seen plenty of comments on the web that say exactly that, even complaining that the design is ugly.
I've seen plenty of grumbling from the Mac community over a variety of issues. Cultists don't grumble; they do what they're told.
I've noticed a new dynamic, as well. many of Apple's most enthusastic supporters appear to be Apple stockholders which wasn't necessarily the case in the past but it makes their fandom that much more over-the-top.
First, I haven't noticed this new dynamic. Where are you observing it?
Second, aren't you *supposed* to buy stock in companies you believe in?
Third, Apple stock has had a fantastic few years, so maybe th0se over-the-top stockholders are onto something.
I do think Apple fans have a cult-like devotion to Macs and Apple products.
I'd like to know what people mean by that. What distinguishes a fan from a cultist? I mean that as a serious question -- I think the difference should be spelled out if you're going to use a loaded term like "cult." Otherwise it sounds like you're just slinging names around because people rub you the wrong way.
And I stand by my assertion that the most fanatical among them are well-trained consumers.
First, that's a tautology. By the time somebody's fanatical (in the sense I think you mean), they're by definition a well-trained consumer.
Second, George Bush stands by a lot of statements. Doesn't make them so. Standing by something isn't the same as making an argument that actually supports it.
On the other hand, if you *are* stating a tautology, then I guess you're absolutely right to stand by it.
Sorry... I don't see why liberals, for example, would be able to see thru the marketing campaigns of every other company but not notice the same tactics being used on them by Apple.
Who says they don't? Let me ask you something. Are you going to vote for the candidate that doesn't have a marketing campaign? Because I'd like to know who you think that candidate is.
Based on what I've read (and I've read a couple of books about Jobs/Apple) I think Jobs himself sounds like a jerk and a secretive one at that. I've never understood the fanaticism of his supporters.
He has a long reputation for being exactly the way you describe him. But sometimes the most charming, persuasive people can be total assholes. Surely you know that.
You're leaving out a couple of other things Jobs has a reputation for, such as perfectionism, an obsession with aesthetics, and a keen eye for talent.
Wanted to update. I live in Calif and am going to Hawaii for a trip. I called att. They said i was on a nationwide plan so there would be no roaming charging for internet access while in Hawaii.
AT&T iPhone Roaming Charges $7,757.29
Incident
I am a Cingular AT&T customer for the last 5 years with 2 family accounts including 7 mobile phone numbers for my wife and 5 kids. I switched my Mobile phone from Blackberry to AT&T iPhone first week of December last year just before leaving for a 2 weeks business trip to Israel. The iPhone was so slow in downloading my emails and in most of the cases failed to do so. The iPhone constantly checks back and forth for data until you lose your patient.
Upon my return to the US, I have reported these miserable performances to AT&T store where I got my iPhone and the sales representative has told me that Apple iPhone are aware of the slow performances and going to come out with a new software revision to fix the slow download process. I called AT&T customer service to tell them about it and asked for the details of my bill in Israel; they didn't have the details and said they will notify me as soon as they get it from Apple.
10 days later, January 16th. I left for a 3 weeks business trip to the Fareast with my iPhone, hoping for a better performance. Guess what? It was the same never-ending downloads.
A week later my wife called my hotel and told me we got a bill of $7,757.29 for my roaming charges in Israel. I switched immediately the roaming button on my iPhone to “off” and asked my wife to wait for my return to discuss it with AT&T customer service. My wife spoke with AT&T and they promised to check the roaming charges and even reduced it by $938. The next day my wife went to the AT&T store to complain and been told that the notes on the account says it is in a “Review status” and we should wait a couple of days. On January 29th AT&T disconnected all 7 phones including my iPhone without any prior notice by phone, email or letter. I was caught and trapped in Mainland China snow storm without any way to communicate by emails or mobile phone.
I have returned back to the US on Feb 6th and called the AT&T customer service. They told me that Israel is not on the list of roaming countries and I should not have used it there, I asked her to log on AT&T web and see for herself, it clearly says Israel is included and support the iPhone; Click to view the link: http://www.wireless.att.com/trav...icenum=1&
STEP=4
In anyways, they refused to answer my question, why they have decided to close my 7 mobile lines even before my bill was due, and never warned us before doing so. I asked to talk to their legal department which they refused to refer me to, and said only my lawyer could do so.
My advice to all businessmen traveling in the US and overseas, forget about the iPhone Gimmick, and stay away from AT&T. It doesn
’t work for us, Switch back to BalckBerry; there is nothing like it!
Damage Resulting
I was using my iPhone for my business and was trapped in the snow storm in China without my emails and mobile phone; missed 2 important meeting, tones of emails and phone calls. My wife and my 5 kids were left without any phones to communicate between ourselves.
The iPhone via AT&T is still a REAL RIP-OFF overseas. I was about to agree to buy an expensive overseas data plan (on top of what I'm already paying in the US) when they said that even with the plan I should keep my phone off as much as possible. They charge $1.99/minute EVEN FOR CALLS YOU DON'T PICK UP AND VOICEMAILS YOU DON'T LISTEN TO.
And AT&T's customer service is every bit as bad as people say; I spent 50 minutes on the phone being bounced around from department to department before I could get the facts on the overseas plans. I'm seriously considering returning the iPhone before the first month is up and going back to Verizon.
Commenting by HaloScan
