Well, as I'm sure you know already, this is testosterone poisoning, but it's not just testosterone poisoning.
The culture rewards asshole behavior. In many ways, all the time.
When you select for something, don't be surprised when that's what you get.
actually it glorifies it at times... anyone ever watch the show jackass?
Jesse:
I've got three daughters ages 2, 5, and 10. They are all going to be attractive. Other than driving, this is what I dread the most. Getting them through High School without shooting someone is going to be an accomplishment.
In any event, I currently teach HS science at the big public HS that my kids will be attending if we're still living here in 10 years. For the most part it's been my observation that it generally isn't same-age kids that are the problem. Your typical sophomore boy is about as innocent and harmless as your typical sophomore girl. Or as is often the case--more innocent and clueless. It's the older boys and men hitting on younger girls that is the real problem. That's always been the case and it always will be.
my daughter who is about to graduate medskool has a favorite shirt. i had it made for her and it says on the front:
Yes, I'm looking for it.
No. Not. With. You.
The culture rewards asshole behavior. In many ways, all the time. When you select for something, don't be surprised when that's what you get.
Unfortunately it goes both ways. The culture also selects for hot vapid sexy girls in a thousand overt and subtle ways. I see it every day in my 10 year old. From the Disney Channel to the shops at the mall.
That said. Looking forward, I do think the future is brighter for girls than boys. It's not a blue collar world anymore. The economy is moving in a direction where I think women have more advantages then men. Especially in upper-middle class professions like medicine. At the high school level, I see a lot more boys who are floundering and lost than girls.
Is Kent banned yet?
I blame the patriarchy and these predators' values, not testosterone. Entitlement is a political and social concept, a religious one, not a chemical one.
Is Kent banned yet?
Ummm....for what?
Kent, in the last thread, you said Maggie was full of shit.
I'm CERTAIN if anyone said that to - say - Lower Manhattanite, that commenter would be unceremoniously escorted to the door.
OK, you're right. That was out of line on my part. I'll go back there and apologize.
Umm not if she where full of shit...hell I have sated that numeroius tiems tio verious comintators....why should kent be banned....oh let me guess, a blog with an borderline overly feminist stance didn't ban someone who called out a post writen by a women, they must be sexist right.
thats pathetic.
(ya you guys are borderline, sure guys can be horrible, but so can girls...you guys tend ot be on the guys evil, girls good side of things)
What's it going to be, Jesse? Is GNB talking it or walking it?
I can totally relate to that. I hate it when women come up to me and start talking like they know me or something. How rude!
oh and if you wnat teh answer, go visit xkcd and hover over teh image..the xkcd hover overs are almost as good as the comics
tat I read maggies post..in taht post she was full of shit...why shoudl that get kent banned?
Moonglum, when you walk down the street, do women pelt you with garbage? Is that it?
You know I love you to pieces, Jesse, but I don't actually believe the testosterone argument. I'm with Bruce above, who blames the system. The system is (in shorthand) the patriarchy, which defines male/white/upper classes as "real human beings" and everyone else as target for oppression. It's a learned system, by everybody, and it's also resisted by everybody until they cannot resist any longer.
However, as adults we have to give up being the products of our conditioning and rage against the machine, in this cased, the lies about the world that we internalized. Male conditioning is so prevalent and so normal that it looks like biology -- but it's not, not if one guy can step outside it, and I/we have ample proof of that.
I'll go a heretical step further: While yes, there is economic survival privilege to be found in not rocking the boat if you are non-target for a particular oppression, it still usually does not "feel" like "privilege" for those inside the lies playing the perpetrator role. It feels like shit, and folks stay in it because the alternative still looks like death. Don't matter what actual reality it, only matters what is PERCEIVED as reality by those stuck in the grooves.
Blaming it on testosterone (or white skin, or money) lets 'em get off with a bye. We're grownups now, let's have grownup expectations of one another.
I also agree with whoever posted above that age difference plays a big role in the power dynamics. A recent study said that most women had their first sexual encounter with a male who was at leat four years older than her. I think this is built into the culture, especially with the objectification of teenaged girls by older men (Miley Cyrus, anyone?) as "normal". Four years is a huge power differential in adolescence. Think of it as a race disparity -- that white men are encouraged to seek out women of color to indoctrinate them into sex, and you get how it's about power, not sex or connection. (Come to think of it, that dynamic is just as strong...)
Way to go for Kyle insisting on using her brain. And way to for you being the kind of Dad she'll bring this story to.
Way to go for Kyle insisting on using her brain. And way to for you being the kind of Dad she'll bring this story to.
bravo!
(our own maggie proving once and for all how unfull of shit she is)
I also agree with whoever posted above that age difference plays a big role in the power dynamics. A recent study said that most women had their first sexual encounter with a male who was at leat four years older than her. I think this is built into the culture, especially with the objectification of teenaged girls by older men (Miley Cyrus, anyone?) as "normal". Four years is a huge power differential in adolescence. Think of it as a race disparity -- that white men are encouraged to seek out women of color to indoctrinate them into sex, and you get how it's about power, not sex or connection. (Come to think of it, that dynamic is just as strong...)
Maggie. At the HS where I teach, 18 year old senior boys are ALWAYS hitting on 14 year old freshmen girls. And the groups of freshmen girls think it's so cool when one of them lands an older boyfriend. By contrast, most senior girls look at freshman boys as if they were some form of toxic bacteria to be handled only with rubber gloves and a mask. If they notice them at all.
However as a former teenage boy I would say you should never underestimate the power of hormones in teenage boys. Teach them to keep that joystick put away and under control. Yes, of course. Responsibility and respect? Of course. But to assume that it's "the system" and not a million years of human evolution that is driving male behavior? I think that's rather like arguing that it's the "system" and not biology that determines sexual preference. And I doubt that's an argument you would make.
What I do think is true is that there are a million little ways in which the culture tends to grant permission to young males to act out on their underlying predispositions towards sex and violence. But take that all away and you'll still have guys chasing girls as has always been the case since the dawn of time.
What I do think is true is that there are a million little ways in which the culture tends to grant permission to young males to act out on their underlying predispositions towards sex and violence.
Uhh, Kent. That is part and parcel of the system of patriarchy. There is more, but right there is the heart of the system that you say isn't driving behaviour.
Literalreddy:
Obviously it's both. Culture is toxic but so is biology. My yellow lab wanted to hump everything in sight, even after he lost is balls. No one taught him that. Culture couldn't teach boys to chase girls unless they were biologically pre-disposed to do it any more than culture could teach guys to be gay or straight if they're not otherwise inclined to be so.
I'm only taking issue with Maggie who wrote: I don't actually believe the testosterone argument. I'm with Bruce above, who blames the system. and Male conditioning is so prevalent and so normal that it looks like biology -- but it's not, not if one guy can step outside it, and I/we have ample proof of that.
The cartoon at the top essentially criticizes those who generalize about "girls" because of the inability of one of them.
Then the entire article criticizes "guys" because of the actions of some.
Your hypocrisy is breathtaking.
Some guys are assholes. So are some girls.
You wouldn't dare imply that "black guys" are all assholes because of the way the one in the story behaved, nor should you.
Generalization is generally bad.
Economic and criminal statistics demonstrate that men are treated better and act worse than women.
The pressure to marry that sexist society puts on women is so strong that all-too-often the question isn’t whether the guy is an asshole, but ‘what else does he bring to the table?’
tata - Kent should not be banned. You've got to give Maggie more credit than that. She'll handle it, just like LM would handle anyone calling bullshit on anything he put up. Of all the things Maggie has had to handle and does handle in her life, I'm quite sure having someone call bullshit is rather minor. To Kent it was bullshit and he said so. AND he apologized. Why? Because Kent is one of the good MEN around here.
This is MY opinion in relation to this topic. Same thing. Do you really think Jesse is going to follow his daughter around and "ban" anyone who looks at her wrong? No. Why? Because he believes in HER to handle it. And she did.
It is an ugly truth for young women to have to come to, that they are "objects put her for the sole purpose to service the male ego". And its all around us, just as Kent indicates up stream. This behavior is reinforced in messages thousands of times a day by men and by women. Those ads and tv shows aren't just written by men, yanno. Lots of women participate in this mentality.
Good for Kyle, btw. Just as she's learning about the powers of testosterone, that male person is learning what not to say/do to attractive females. Enlightening men is a fucked up endless job, but someone has to do it. 
Nature or nuture? It's always both, gang.
Yes, boys are born wanting to chase girls. And mostly, this is a very positive thing, inasmuch as it also makes you do things like father children and form pairbonds and engage in other behavior that moves both the species and our civilization forward.
But healthy civilizations have always taken great pains to channel the energies of their young men, because they can get very much out of hand if they're not focused. That's why almost every successful society contained its young men with coming-of-age rituals, rigorous tests of manhood, and efforts to keep them sequestered in a tightly-controlled environments like the military, school, or apprenticeships.
Lock 'em down and run 'em ragged -- and while you're at it, make it clear that they have to do this to earn their stake in the culture (including the right to marry and own property). By the time they're in their early 20s, they've started to calm down, and have internalized the expectations so thoroughly that you can start to count on them.
The good news is that nature also makes this easy. The same testosterone that makes them behave like idiots also makes them extremely conforming -- which means that if there are adults (especially adult males) around to model correct behavior, they'll tend to imprint that behavior like baby ducks.
Of course, for that to work, you cannot allow them to define manhood on their own (which is what happens in gangs and frat houses). Our culture makes this mistake constantly, which is why there are so many asshole men in the world.
I've got a 15-year-old at home right now who's imprinted heavily on Evan and his friends, and the 20-something men he plays paintball with. He's also had comprehensive sex ed that emphasized responsibility and respect in relationships, and has apparently completely short-circuited his ability to be an asshole to women. (Inept and clueless, yes. But malicious or exploitative, no.) This summer, it's pleasing to watch him grow not only into his height, but also a mature seriousness where his obligations to society are concerned. He's finally figured out that being a man means using his power and privilege for the good of others. Which means that it worked. We did what we set out to do.
We know how to raise respectful men. There's no mystery here: societies have done it for millennia. Our culture has, in large measure, chosen to throw out that ancient knowledge. (And, yes, I think that the women's movement, whose ideology misunderstands men's deepest motivations with a blind confidence that I find horrifying, has had something to do with that loss.)
But there are still parents out there managing to bring nice boys to productive adulthood -- always, always, by willing to put in the work during those critical teenage years, showing them what's expected of them as men, and not leaving them alone with a pack of other boys to figure it all out on their own.
tata : no, do men do that to you....
this site tends towards a men = evil women = good bias, jsut tryign to balance that out....
we have a cultural issue, our culture tends to put white males over all else...if your white, or male you can pick up some of thsoe benifits (its the minority women who truly get craped on). That ahs nothign to do with biology, nothing to do with testastarone. those teenage girls are rageing with hormons as well, plenty of them activly try to get an older boyfriend, and treat boys their age as radio active. we need to teach both sideshow to deal with these issue.
By frameing it as boys and male behaviors bad, girls female behavior good(as this site and others on the left tend to do) you are pushign away most males. You tell someone that they are naturaly evil and they will either reble agenist you (they don't see themselves as evil, you must be wrong) or embrace it and act out their darkeist impulses...either way you lose. like wise if you tell soemone that they are allways good, they may (and many do) use that to their advantage to get others in trouble for their actions (the power of tataling is soemthign little girls learn early).
Yes boys are more agresive more physical, more competitive espicaly in teenage years then girls...instead of fighteing that, adn tryign to turn them into girls, why dont' we use those traits constructivly. chanle those into positive activities. right now, and for the past 2 0years or so, coniciding with the rise of acidemic feminism we have been failing our boys, we need to acknoladge that boys and girls are diffrent. We need equality, wit hthe understandign that both groups are diffrient, adn deal with issues diffrently.
By saying "you don't act liek a girl, every thign you do is bad" well that gets internalized and you generate truly bad behavior.
You treat males with no respect (Testastarone poinsnening, ect.) they will not act respectfully.
so in the tiem it took me to type taht Mrs. R says it much more elequently....thanks The proble mI see is that our modern society has denagrated all thigns male, the institutions, the comeign of age rituals are all seen as BAD. We have tried to feminize a gernation of boys, that has lead/is leadign to a major backlash of hyper masculinity. We need to step back, and ya "let boys, be boys" in a controlled and constructive manner.
Kent ya, all teh guys are around chaseign girls...come on kent, your in a HS enviroemnt, you see whats happenign. soem of the guys are chaseign girls, soem of the girls are chaseign guys, soem of teh girls/guys are trying to get chased, wantign to be caught...its a game that both sides play, the problem coems in when the game is forced apone one of the players. Nither guys nor girls are wholly innocent. Girls and guys are not wholly guilty either.
The proble mI see is that our modern society has denagrated all thigns male, the institutions, the comeign of age rituals are all seen as BAD. We have tried to feminize a gernation of boys, that has lead/is leadign to a major backlash of hyper masculinity. We need to step back, and ya "let boys, be boys" in a controlled and constructive manner.
Let's see...the three biggest institutions at the school I teach at (in terms of numbers and popularity) are:
Football
Junior ROTC
Marching Band
Yep, we're definitely feminizing this generation of boys. Of course this is Texas so your mileage may vary.
I agree with Chris and moonglum.
It isn't good to generalize and say all men are scum blah blah blah. Because if a girl gets a bad attitude about guys from some of them hitting on her all the time, she is going to go off on someone who might actually like her and isn't trying to go for a quick score. Emphasizing a prevailing attitude that "all men are scum" just takes people off the hook for their behavior too. "He couldn't help but sleep with her cause he was a man." Bullshit. Some guys lack of self-control can't be projected out to the entire group.
And moonglum is right that minority women have it the absolute worse. They do all the shit jobs, don't get paid hardly anything, and don't get any respect at all. I'm thinking about some woman cleaning hotel rooms all day then going home and doing all the housework too. That shit is downright exhausting. And they likely find themselves in a lot more vulnerable position especially in regards to police than any white woman would ever have to endure.
I don't actually believe the testosterone argument.
Said with the utter certainty that can come only from someone who has never been a young man of 17 to 19.
Maggie, if hormones can give my wife hot flashes, hormones can make young men act stupid. You're right, though, that culture and upbringing make a crucial difference. Mrs. Robinson noted that her 15-year-old boy might occasionally be inept and clueless. That comes from a combo of immaturity, inexperience and dem ol' hormones. (And to some girls, "inept and clueless" might be perceived as malicious.)
...that white men are encouraged to seek out women of color to indoctrinate them into sex...
Hmmm. Not in the Texas city where I grew up. White girls were considered the standard of beauty and desirability. I'm pretty sure they still are.
Qq, I joined your bandwagon a few years ago, when a doctor decided to give me some testosterone and see if it did anything for my flagging energy levels.
Yeowch. I took just this leetle tiny bit -- and we were off to the rodeo.
I cannot imagine how those of you who make a hundred times more of this stuff -- every day, throughout your lives -- manage to ride that tiger. It was hard to pick up the phone without starting an argument, or walk down the street without seeing someone whose ass needed kicking. I felt strong and energetic and good, all right. I was also a menace to society, good order, and right-living people everywhere.
That lasted about ten days before I decided that the aggro life was not for me. But the experience left me with a renewed appreciation for the fact that the majority of men actually do go through their days without putting a fist through anyone's face.
I don't know how you handle that stuff, guys. But I now have the highest respect and admiration for the fact that, somehow, most of you do seem to find a way.
Queequeg so can I call my wifes monthly mood swings estrogin poisening?
The good news is that nature also makes this easy. The same testosterone that makes them behave like idiots also makes them extremely conforming -- which means that if there are adults (especially adult males) around to model correct behavior, they'll tend to imprint that behavior like baby ducks.
Of course, for that to work, you cannot allow them to define manhood on their own (which is what happens in gangs and frat houses). Our culture makes this mistake constantly, which is why there are so many asshole men in the world.
This is a great thread, so many excellent quotes to choose from, but I chose this one. It epitomizes so much about the nature/nurture debate (I fall into the "it's both" side). It's a feedback loop and when left unchecked default status is something akin to watching 'Jackass' every goddamn day.
And whoever sez Testosterone isn't literally part of the equation (in a physiological sense) is out of the debate. A prime example besides women who have used hormone therapy? Post-op transgendered biological (ie XX chromosomal) females have attested to this.
As for summing up bad learned behavior, whether it be boy, girl, or any gender ID inbetween; Garbage in = Garbage out.
skunqesh: testaterone is there, you can not remove it, s oclaiming that boys all suffer from "testastarone poiseneing" is equivalant to dismissing every thign a women says once a month due to estrogin poisining.
good for the gose, good for the gander and all that.
moonglum - Sure you can say that to her. Once.
Myrtle Hussein June: Im nto that stupid...
but thats my point...unless ou want to open the pandoras box of estorgen poinsening I think we need to drop teh testastarone poiseneing idea.
Mrs. R, speaking as a formerly young man who DID behave himself, who did NOT act up in misogynistic or other antisocial ways, and who never got jack shit in the way of rewards from the great god, Society, for "doing right":
Society can take all of its expectations and shove them up its arse. As long as the damn thing holds together long enough for me to die of old age first, and I'm 45, fine. I kept my end of the bargain Mrs. R talked about, and got nothing for it. Society may consider itself permanently invited to kiss my arse and go directly to Hell, do not pass "Go", do not collect $200.
This world, indeed this Universe, is not my proper home, so I hope there actually is a better one waiting.
moonglum - (lol) yes, I would never attempt to blame/excuse/exonerate any egregious behaviour on testosterone. I'm all for accountability. I think of the testostteronni as the fuel, not the driver.
and Myrtle June - I did that, once. Only once.. 
Commenting by HaloScan
