The Constitution hasn't mattered since late 2000. Other than that, I agree completely.
The Congress is about to destroy the basis for their own legitimacy, and that of the rest of the government.
That is exactly what formal Congressional renunciation of the Constitution means.
I wonder how many of them understand what the sure and certain consequences of this are going to be?
Do they understand that they are composing the literal death warrants for many of their number?
A government that wrecks its own legitimacy WILL eventually be overthrown, either by insurrection or by coup d'etat. In our case, I'm betting coup.
In either event, any even half-successful governmental seizure attempt will most certainly involve purges of the Congressional rank and file.
The way things are going, you might want to throw in that serial pragmatist, Barack Obama
I don't blame him, he is busy running for Bush's job. His mistake was trusting the advice of congress.
not saying I'm not disappointed, but he has Harry telling him the bill is fine. whats a brother to do...
If I were tempted to projection, I would think Obama figures this is the runup to 49 BC, and he needs all the powers he can get to survive the storm and prevail. Constitutional or not, legal or not, makes no difference when the Devil drives.
But I don't believe Obama thinks that way.
I think he's trying to "woo the center". Disastrously bad move. The "center" doesn't exist any more.
not saying I'm not disappointed, but he has Harry telling him the bill is fine. whats a brother to do...
Given Hapless Harry's well documented track record, my advice to Sen. Obama would be....... don't listen to what Sen. Reid has to say. In fact, do the exact opposite (a senatorial Costanza moment).
I think Hapless has to be his new name -- drop the Harry, Hapless covers it. Great post.
I'm going to check the vote roster. Any senator who votes for this bill with the immunity still attached will never get my vote for anything ever again. The fix is in, and the party's over, in more ways than one.
He's not trying to woo the center, the center doesn't give a shit about FISA most of them don't even know what the fuck it is.
He is running the same "Don't hurt me" game. He is worried about the GOP ads if he votes AGAINST Fisa. He thinks, or his advisors think, that if they vote yes on this-- it takes "weak on terror" off the table.
but the sad truth is, that is the way they are going to paint us anyway.
they only have a bag of hammers.
and they are going to use that tool. NO MATTER WHAT WE DO. so we might as well do the RIGHT thing instead of the SAFE THING!
dammit
when this passes, teh revolution meter moves away from bloodless and back towards violent...there is still hope, but a little less.
look one way or another we are going to have a revolution in hte next decade..it is all about manageign it now..it can be bloodless or it can be violent, but the path we are on as a nation is unsetainable
"The Constitution hasn't mattered since late 2000."
Absolute bullshit! The Constitution hasn't mattered since we got off the gold standard. Now we just have "policy". Reality is a bitch.
>got off the gold standard
okay grampa settle down...
gold standard...right...when did we let birchers in?
let me guess, teh govement was suspended with teh creation of the IRS adn now we live under a corperation right?
How about Dodd as a replacement?
He ran against Daschle in 2000 and lost.
"Do they understand that they are composing the literal death warrants for many of their number?"
A little bit dramatic I think, but not that far from the mark. Theatrics aside this is scary shit. It was bad in the 60's and 70's when it was all secret, and then the secrets came out and the nation recoiled in horror and shut it down. Now they're doing it in plain sight and everybody is sort of shrugging and or looking the other way.
I like Dodd for senate maj. leader. He pissed me off when he got into the anti-immigrant shit during his presidential campaign, but he's certainly shown that he is a rule of law type Democrat, and I think I value that above just about anything else right now.
Lambs to the slaughter, Obama as your shepherd. Change is coming, don't you worry about that part!
"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who makes its laws."
Because with a gold standard, of course everyone would have equal access; no one would try to game the system, and everything would be ginger-peachy just like it was in the Gilded Age. Anyone who can't tell the difference between an chemical element (gold) and a social technology (currency) really has no business making any economic recommendations for anyone else.
Back to the topic--I'd really like to know if the Dems are capitulating because of a) residual cowardice, b) collaboration during the Rethug period of 2001-06, c) the Rethugs have something on numerous Dems due to illegal surveillance, d) the Dems actually agree with it, e) something else, or f) some combination of the above.
I'm going with 'f) some combination of the above', but with the emphasis on collaboration/complicity.
I wouldn't underestimate how many Democrats actually agree with this bill, but it is truly a cover your ass operation.
There is a general theory about American history that the excesses of a certain moment of time are generally self-correcting. Such as Debs being sentenced for 10 years for making an anti-war speech and then being pardoned by Harding. But this time is different. The claim for emergency power only grows further after the emergency event. Investigations are undertaken of the excesses but consequences are never doled out. The elite ruling class does not want to come to pay even a penny on the pound for the evil they have created and no one is there to make them.
This bill is only one in a long line of abuses that have been visited on us by the government in the past and a preview to those in the near future, but it certainly gives us a naked look at how the corporate party works in this country. They control the near entirety of the Republican Party and an operating minority including the leadership of the Democratic Party.
The corporate party's back needs to be broken before they can destroy us. This means no more Republicans and no more Democrats that are more focused on serving AT&T and George W. Bush than the US Constitution.
Well, technically Whosane is correct, since it was Richard Milhous aka Tricky Dicky who took us off the gold standard. And because he was not impeached, his legion of ratfvckers have proceeded to serial rape the Constitution with, how you say, immunity. They know they can get away with it because Nixon got away with it.
For Captain C’s multiple choice, I pick ‘f) some combination of the above’ with the following as ‘e) something else’; this Administration is like an organized crime family and Dubya was poppy’s enforcer back in the day. These people almost always get their way by making you cut a deal. The elections are coming up; go along with telecom immunity and they will cut you in for a piece. Otherwise it could be time for another October Surprise.
Have I missed something? Wasn't it FDR who took us off the gold standard? Hell, I have seen gold certificates over the last 60 years, but only in museums.
Hubris Sonic: "not saying I'm not disappointed, but he has Harry telling him the bill is fine. whats a brother to do..."
jesus fucking christ, is Obama a man or a little child for Harry Reid to tell him what to do?
I used to be a Democrat, until they caved in last year on FISA. Now it's even worse.
Now Obama is joining the ranks of the Vichy Dems.
The presidential oath is "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Obama has shown he will NOT "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
That is a dealbreaker for me. I will not vote for Obama (he will carry Maryland anyway). He will not become president with my support
Ronzoni:
Have I missed something? Wasn't it FDR who took us off the gold standard?
No, it was FDR who helped set up the international postwar gold standard with the Bretton Woods agreement in 1944. Nixon took us off the gold standard in 1971. Wikipedia entry here. (Of course, being Nixon, he did it in an underhanded and squirrely way, screwing our European allies.)
FDR signed Executive Order 6102 in 1933 which made it illegal for Americans to own gold coin, bullion or gold certificates. I guess you can say he effectively ended the gold standard by denying Americans the right to even own gold. We weren't legally allowed to own gold again until 1974 under Gerald Ford.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Exe...tive_Order_6102
When Nixon got involved in 1971, all he did was change our currency from saying 'silver certificate' to 'federal reserve note', meaning the Govt no longer had to back our currency with even silver. I remember turning in my silver certificate dollars back then for silver coinage before the deadline.
*Harding* pardoned Debs?? So hardings did one good thing during his otherwise worthless presidency! Tha means Bush is offically the worst.
A guy I used to work for wrote a biography of Harding.......... Harding's looking good compared to the overflowing, shit-filled toilet that is the Bush regime.
One of the best threads and comments ever.
Folks above, great thoughts.
Wengler, yep. One way or the other, this shit's comin apart . . .
I like your 10 year thoughts.
If we don't have a better handle on it all in 5 years, the streets will see the action they've lacked to now.
And all bets are off, as energy shuts down, transport is cut, government fails, and regional and local emphasis and interests become more and more important, paramount, and enforced.
Best to all and again, GREAT comments one and all, GNB folks and commenters too . . . very real stuff you are discussing. And FISA and Harry Reid is the tip of it for sure . . .
"the overflowing, shit-filled toilet that is the Bush regime."
Bang-on. One of the best short descriptions of his travesty yet. I plan on cribbing it.
Stickler & Ensley:
T'anx. I was never clear on why gold was pegged at $35/oz. back in the day; nor why we couldn't own any. Never did explore the post-war economic agreements other than noting we gave Europe a helluva lotta money. Re Nixon, I was too busy trying to make a living, but I recall the death of the silver certificate. Of course, coinage debasement occurred under LBJ, didn't it? Marked the disappearance of the 50˘ piece as well as all those Carson City Cartwheels.
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