Did none of the idiots who planned this Double Debacle (let's face facts, you can't fuck up this badly without some deliberation) ever hear of Occam's Razor?
Gods damn me, I knew this would happen, and was called nothing complimentary for saying so aloud.
This is horrible and becoming even more frightening to me. Our son turned 17 in January and is a junior. He came home in 8th grade and told us he wanted to join jROTC in high school. As his DFH peace loving anti war parents we were worried, but he was going to be in a school with over 3000 kids and we figured a close knit group like that with adults who personally knew your kid was maybe preferable to his being a skater or some other kind of kid with no roots. He loved it and has really prospered in the program and excelled in many ways in their varsity drill team.
Now, he is being wooed by a recruiter who is filling his (and his friends) heads with lies....he wants us to sign for him to join the Army reserves right now....he'll go to basic this summer and then she assures him he'll finish his senior year and get all this money for college and will be in college immediately after high school....we tell him he will never see the inside of a college class room.
My husband has friends who are retired military and retired recruiters and they tell us what she says is a lie. I met with the recruiter a week ago and told her I thought she was lying...and now I guess we both need to meet with her and tell her to leave our son alone. He then came home this week and wanted us to sign paperwork so he could go have the physical yesterday...refused that too....he (and the recruiter) told me there was no commitment in getting the physical....and that he just wanted to do it since his friends were doing it yesterday. Still am not signing anything. I am afraid he will go and do it on his own next January when he turns 18. The friend who did go get the physical yesterday came by last night and was telling me about it and said they had to raise their hands and take an oath....that sure doesn't sound to me like something that involved no commitment, now does it?
I hope that with everyone (his girlfriend, us, other friends) telling him this is a bad idea, that with 10 more months till he turns 18, we might be able to make him see this is the bad idea that we say it is. (I'm going to have him read the story in the Times magazine today too.)
I am okay (sort of) with his going to college on an ROTC program and getting out with that commitment, but I do not want him in at 18 and being one of those kids on the IED line in Iraq.
Anyone have any good suggestions about how to keep him out of the reserves and into college? He is a very smart kid, but he does not like to study...but off the charts smart in testing. We are waiting for his SAT results now. I keep telling him that college is completely unlike high school and that he will have a blast and enjoy the teachers....he is not believing me when I say that either.
Any good advice will be appreciated by me, if not by him.
Damn, Abo, you're in a serious pickle. You've tried the stick and the carrot -- telling your son why joining right out of high school is a bad idea, and telling him that college is fun.
No matter what you do, I think anything you say about the dangers of joining the army at 18 are going to sound like scare tactics to him. It's like showing kids Reefer Madness to stop them from smoking pot. It won't work.
College is fun -- for some people. I loved it and you did, too. But what if your son goes to college and doesn't like it? He'll think you were lying worse than the recruiter and he'll drop out and join the army.
Is there any way you could persuade him to enroll in the community college, maybe for evening or summer classes? Especially if he's in classes with more mature students, he might enjoy the mellower and more learning-focused atmosphere. You could let him know a four-year university is like that, only moreso. The risk is that he won't like it. But it sounds like you're going to be forced to take some risks to get the outcome you want.
Having been a 17-year-old boy (with, admittedly, a different personality than your son), I don't recommend a scared-straight strategy, such as taking him to a VA hospital.
The other thing -- and you have to soft-pedal this, because he already has a girlfriend -- is to let him find out that the majority of college students are female. A four-year college is a sexual Disneyland for a guy who doesn't live at home. That prospect might help a 17- or 18-year-old change his mind.
Oh, and I just heard that the fucker, Nader, is going to run again. Anybody who calls themselves a Dem who would vote for him in this election....well, words aren't enough to express my feeling for them.
Queequeg, I can't really find out how serious he is about this girlfriend...they clam up you know....but HER mother cornered me a couple of weeks ago after a school meeting to tell me that she was taking Claire to the doctor the next week to get BIRTH CONTROL for her and that she was not going to be protected till after that. Holy moly, I think my jaw is still on the floor in that room....so apparently it is okay with her for them to get after it. We have been on him for a couple of years now about condoms and I know he had sex with his first girlfriend. I guess telling him about that aspect of college may be helpful, but considering how the high school kids are, maybe not the complete selling point that it used to be.
Abo,
We had a somewhat simmilar situation with our stepson, post 9/11.
Fortunately, it didn't last.
He's a bright kid, capable of nuanced thinking, and I used that.
I had some long talks, cumulating with:
"If this is a real war, be patient.
They'll come for you."
I also arranged a little film festival:
"Duck Soup", "Dr. Stangelove",
and "All Quiet on the Western Front".
Since then, I've added a few tricks:
Constantly drum into your kid's head is that if he raises his hand, they have him for the duration. (see "Stop-Loss")
Anything they told him or promised him is null&void from the moment he recites the oath.
Even in peacetime, signing up is a calculated risk.
Over the last fifteen years, deployments have ratcheted up dramatically. I'ts not like the 80's where you could do your time and get out without a lengthy call-up.
As for college ROTC, under current conditions, even a four year delay is iffy.
Added:
My, "Real War" comment should not be taken wrong. Afghanistan, Iraq, are as real as it gets.
I'm refering to how seriously the conflict is being treated by the government. For reasons this, and Steve's blog made clear, the wars are being fought on the cheap, with payment deferred for later.
For the moment, the adiministration CAN use existing resources without collapsing the military.
It can't last, but for this moment it will continue unchanged.
That's a marvelous idea, fluttbucker -- the film festival. My 11-year-old son and I watched Dr. Strangelove a couple of nights ago. "You can't fight here -- this is the war room!" Strangelove and Duck Soup are a great way to impart the message that heroism can be overwhelmed by absurdity.
Ouch. I'm up in Canuckistan and Canadian kids have been signing up for the war profiteer's buffet.
I can scarcely believe the reality pills I'm finding online myself, let alone trying to educate a media-programmed teen.
http://bluegirlredmissouri.blogs....com/
index.html and her husband managed to keep their kids out : but it's different when a couple of officers tell their kids it's been turned into a cock-up.
For the moment, the adiministration CAN use existing resources without collapsing the military.
That's not really true.
Every lie the Bush regime gets caught telling troops whose lives are on the line impacts long term recruitment. And the quality of the available recruits impacts the sort of operations the Army can even train for.
If the best you can get is people who no longer have ANY choices, you are shit out of luck.
Because the time when "clockwork armies" who feared their officers more than the enemy, could survive and succeed, has been dead and gone since 1918.
What's happening to Army recruitment is simple cause and effect. But we'd all better pray to whatever gods we own to that this country doesn't get into any real, existential war anytime soon.
If we do, we'll be crushed. Read up on what happened to the French army in May of 1940. Like that.
i am a decorated combat veteran. i took steps to ensure that my son would not be taken in any kind of draft. they were steps of certainly dubious ethics and i'm sure of questionable legality but i took them nevertheless. i am not ashamed of that. i am dealing with the prospect of a friend of mine deploying to afghanistan in another month. and i do not have any confidence in either the general officers who are there, in washington, or the political civilians who are in control of this to show any real concern about his comfort or safety.
these wars were both ill conceived, then poorly executed. the positive results of our involvements in both theatres have been either of dubious value or clearly damaging to our interests.
it's time to leave. now.
Good for you, minstrel.
Abo,
The Mount Diablo (Walnut Creek, CA) Peace and Justice Center has some good information about our youth and the military. Maybe something there will give you some talking points, or your son a different perspective. Here is a link to their Youth & the Military page:
http://www.mtdpc.org/
YouthAndMil...AndMilitary.php
My heart goes out to you.
Michele
Yes, he's blown two wars, and on top of all that, he's let the folks who are truly responsible for the rise of Al Qaeda and the attack on 9/11 get away with it scot-free:
www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com
Absolutely pathetic.
Stormcrow, what you said is why I worry that the bar for a nuclear exchange has been lowered if such an "existential war" were to occur.
HS,
OT, but big ups for your writing being able to land an important story on Crooks and Liars' front page.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/20...-army-anecdote/
The GNB is certainly earning its stripes every day.
Nader's "running" again is a laugh. The repubs chortling about it are idiots. :o)
The last time Nader "ran", he got .03 % of the vote. He won't do any better, this time.
Anyone who thinks that can save the warpimps asses in THIS election isn't paying attention. :o)
What's happening to Army recruitment is simple cause and effect. But we'd all better pray to whatever gods we own to that this country doesn't get into any real, existential war anytime soon.
By real, existential war, I presume you mean a war that could threaten our home-territorial integrity or national sovereignty. Seeing as how only Russia, a united western Europe, or China (maybe India, as they have lots of people, nukes, and they're a technological and industrial up-and-comer) could pose such threat that I can foresee, I tend to think such a conflict would quickly go nuclear.
And to address the topic of this post directly, the war that's forgotten is the one that should have been important. Al Qaeda was basing itself in Afghanistan, and the money we've been pissing away in Iraq is money that would have been better spent helping Afghanistan heal from 20+ years of nonstop war, destruction, and death. And now the country is virtually the world's sole supplier of opium for heroin. The young people who live there must be so cynical.
Any good advice will be appreciated by me, if not by him.
abo gato | 02.24.08 - 6:34 am | #
You've done all that you can-you've let him know that what these people are telling him has absolutely nothing to do with reality. Just keep reminding him gently-any pushing might result in a result no one wants right now.
As someone who has several family members in Iraq, I can empathize with you. Last year I had a discussion with my grand-niece about serving in the military-she wants to do either nursing or law enforcement and the Army recruiters were pushing her hard. (including waving a $20K check in her face).
I had a long discussion with her and explained that everything that she wanted to pursue via the Army she could get in the Air Force, get it with better training, have better opportunities for a job when she did her time and if she did go to Iraq she would be in a position where the possibilities of combat would be little (I'm ex-USAF, so I'm prejudiced).
Two months later, I found out she'd enlisted...in the Army. That $20K was a bit much to pass up...
You do the best you can. If he turns 18 and signs the papers to go, well then...I pray our next Democratic president makes it short...
Heads-up, y'all!!! :o)
Over at FDL, TeddySanFran has a thread up:
"Obama gets it"
that recaps Barack's jump-right-on-it response to McCain's NEW whoring himself-out-to-Lobbyists, problem.:o)
But the capper is the photoshopped shot on the lead; trust me, it's worth the price of admission. :o)
Jim-Bob tanbark gives it a "8". :o)
I wonder how very different things would have been if we'd stopped at Afghanistan.
Things might not have gotten so bad there, so quickly. More military resources could have been committed, at least during the first few years.
But there's an undeniable pattern to all of our mini-wars since Viet Nam: We make extravagant promises, but after the Hitler du jour's been thrown up against a wall, the aid never quite materializes -- or if it does, it's in a form that mostly ends up in the pockets of politically-connected contractors.
Dyncorp, anyone? They got their first big boost in the Kosovo War. Iraq is just more of the same, on meth.
I'm just skeptical that in even the best of circumstances (i.e. no "Onward to Iraq!"), after nothing more than the spirit of revenge -- however justified it was -- got us into Afghanistan, we'd have been willing to devote the time and resources to get it right.
"Bush is losing two"....
Well, just give him time.... I'm sure he'd like to make that three. Still plenty of time for that.
You need to realize that any signature or oath taken is pretty final, so avoid that.
Sounds like you need to go to this recruiter's boss, and get them to stand the fuck down.
I would also introduce your boy to "Jody" -- this is the guy that his girl will be seeing while he's off in Iraq, Afghanistan, the field in general... all the long, loooooooong months that he'll be away.
Just saying.
Maybe a year abroad in europe, australia, or japan would be a good plan.
abo,
What the military, and especially war will do to your son is expand the parameters (boundaries) of his own identity. This means your son will change, both in how he sees himself and how others perceive him. The change in his personal perimeter will bring about an equivalent change in behavior, necessary to create a soldier. Much of this behavior change is deemed a positive development by society, as a final step in development of "becoming a man". This is of course, why its appealing to someone (a teenager) aware that they are still developing their adult self - and can only imagine - what they might become, should their boundaries become expanded. You know, "be all you can be". Which is the hook that the military establishment uses to entice the young into the ultimate proving grounds of manhood, in locating the limits of oneself. This is not all bad, and for all the usual reasons joining the military is not necessarily a fools errand. But, what should be understood, and never forgotten is that the trajectory of military training and life is to, if necessary, fight and if necessary, breach the final border of human behavior - and kill on demand. And once that border is crossed NO ONE is the same person as before. Those soldiers mentioned in the article above are a clear testament to what can happen when personal borders (identity) are pushed by circumstance beyond, even the limits they are trained for - to the point that even they, themselves, have lost touch with who they are. They have fallen through the boundaries of who they are, and are unhinged and adrift from reality. Some call it PTSD. Anyway, the question to ask anyone considering the military in these times are "is this what you are willing to risk to become, exactly what? Against what you already know, can live with, and can grow into" Because the alternative, offers no road home, no way back, for ever. And thats if you're lucky enough not to make you're grand public debut at the end of the PBS Newshour.
Abo; fishing boat in Alaska.
He'll get his ass worked off; make money; get tough; make lifelong friends, and best of all, he doesn't have to shoot anyone, or get shot at, and he can quit ANYTIME he wants.
Trust me; if he signs away those years of his life, that last one will be VERY attractive, down the road.
Re: The young man being recruited. I sympathize deeply. You might try one thing.
Sit him down and both of you look him in the eye and ask him if he is prepared to deal with the personal consequences of killing someone, most likely more than just one, he's never met?
Not, is it right...is it necessary....but is...
He ready to do it?
.
Abo, what is it that is drawing him to it ? manliness? Structure ? A sense of having control over circumstances ? Whatever it is there are alternatives. and how about getting him to commit to 12 mos of helping out veterans in some capacity ??
I have 3 daughters, the oldest is 9 so this is a few years away for us at this point. But I do teach at a large public high school in Texas and I have a shitload of students who are Jr ROTC. Partly because I teach the lower end classes I think. I'm pretty careful to keep my opinions to myself as it's not my position to get involved. Most of their parents are former soldiers or marines so they get it from home as much as anywhere.
Personally, I think I'd do the following if I was in abo gato's position. I'd take a week off work, yank the kid out of school, and take a week-long road trip to college campuses. But do it right. visit the dorms, visit the local pubs and buy him a beer (if you can sneak him in). Bribe the doorman if you have to to buy your son a drink in a college bar on a Friday night. Hang out in the choice girl-watching locations. Check out whatever programs he's interested in. Do that for an entire week at a number of different campuses.
When you are in HS the idea of 4 more years of school is not always that attractive. For those kids its the lifestyle you have to sell. And to sell it you have to see it first hand and experience it.
Gravatar Abo; fishing boat in Alaska. He'll get his ass worked off; make money; get tough; make lifelong friends, and best of all, he doesn't have to shoot anyone, or get shot at, and he can quit ANYTIME he wants.
Uh...no. I worked on a bunch of fishing boats in Alaska when I was young. Followed that with a 10 year career working as a fisheries biologist for the National Marine Fisheries Service regulating the fishing industry in Alaska and spending much of my time out in fishing towns or at sea.
Bottom line? There are no good jobs on fishing boats for 18 year old kids with no experience. The fishing industry has shrank around the rest of the US and anyone showing up looking for a job in Alaska will be competing for deckhand jobs with 30 year old veteran deckhands from places like New Bedford, Pascagoula, Glouchester, Astoria, or Vladivostok, Honningsvaag, and Ishinomaki. Guys who grew up on boats and who know how to do things like repair the hydraulics on a frozen deck crane in 20' seas, splice trawl cables, repair diesel engines, navigate at night when on watch and the rest of the crew is asleep. Etc. etc. The only 18 year olds who get those jobs have been working on their dad's boats since they were 6.
The only fishing jobs for 18 year olds with no experience are on the slime line or freezer line of processing plants. And for the most part the big processing companies want no part of 18 year old college kids from the lower 48. Those days are long over. These days the plants are filled with undocumented Mexicans, Chinese, Guatemalans, Russians, Colombians, etc.
The work sucks, the money is not that good anymore, and there are a hundred ways to get screwed, not to mention lose a hand or your life.
And if he really really really wants to sign on the dotted line, at least point him towards the Navy. My co-teacher has a son who's just getting out of the Navy. He went in thinking he was tough enough to make the SEALs but that didn't happen and he spent his time on a carrier. Now that he's at the end of his service he is damn glad he didn't chose the Army.
Uhhh...yes, Kent. I was in Seattle. Spent three days learning how to patch net. Got hired for the season two days laterk, and off we went to the Icy Straits. Wouldn't have missed it for anything. And that was without knowing a damn soul. If his family has ANY contacts with anyone up there, it's a great place to get your bum legs on, even if you have to take a shit job, to do it.
Remember, we're just trying to keep the young man out of signing away a few years of his life, not make him the CEO of Bumblebee Seafood.
Alaska is not about getting rich quick; just about BEING there. I still talk to people up there and if you go up with a bit of a cash cushion, you'll find work, and it doesn't have to be as dangerous as you make it out. The Crabber's are dicey, but the seiners and smaller boats, not as much. And NOTHING up there is as dicey as Mosul. :o)
And, it's just one way of doing a little youthful adventuring. There are others. :o)
BTW, Kent; re; the Navy as a last resort; That's not a lot better than the army. You're still stuck without the ability to change your mind, and you're at the mercy of NCO's who don't give a fuck about your individuality, or the finding and expressing of it.
Also, they are so desperate for bodies in Iraq, that sailors have been killed on patrol in Fallujah. If bush is insane enough to ignore the warnings from our military to NOT send up the ball with Iran, there are going to be some U.S. naval casualties, as a result.
Uhhh...yes, Kent. I was in Seattle. Spent three days learning how to patch net. Got hired for the season two days laterk, and off we went to the Icy Straits. Wouldn't have missed it for anything. And that was without knowing a damn soul. If his family has ANY contacts with anyone up there, it's a great place to get your bum legs on, even if you have to take a shit job, to do it.
I think you were the exception that proves the rule.
Don't get me wrong, Alaska is a great adventure. But there are better alternatives than fishing. Especially today when most of the big money fisheries (crab, pollock, cod, yellowfin sole, etc. are wintertime fisheries.
Tourism is the growth industry. Show up in Juneau at the beginning of summer and everyone is hiring. There are mountain lodges, fishing lodges, hotels, restaurants, and the like all over Alaska that hire loads of young people every summer. The pay ain't great but the work is a heck of a lot better than spending 12 hour shifts.
...in the freezer of a fish processing plant.
Kent, I know, the bloom went off the get-rich-quick-stuff about 30 years ago. And I appreciate your update on the fishing situation. Don't doubt it for a minute.
Abo! Does he like surfing flicks? Give me your addy, and maybe I'll send him $10 bucks on a plane ticket to the North Shore. Where I also spent a winter. That's ANOTHER kind of adventure, if he can get into it. :o)
Point is, every kid's got at least 3 or 4 moose calls, and the military can't be his only one. Just figure out the others, and sound 'em, in no uncertain volume. :o)
When we're young, and a-huntin' ourselves, it may be comfy having other people tell us what to do, but as he gets a little older, THAT will likely wear off, and very quickly. :o) Ask him how much longer he thinks he'll enjoy taking orders from someone else. It's a brutal question, but it's worth asking.
This is another area where McCain, (and Lieberman), are getting a free pass. On Meet The Press the other week, I lost count of the times My Friend mentioned al Qaeda and Iraq. But never once did he mention Afghanistan.
These people have fucked up more than we give them credit for. Way more.
Abo ... my daughter is 21 and when we lived in NH, a number of her friends signed up ... and what struck me was that they were the kids who wanted to "get their lives together" and to "be responsible" ... sadly the recruiters play on just this well intentioned sense that they have ("save your parents the college money" etc) ...
Rather than try to bribe and cajole, I'd ask him to meet with the nearest group of Iraq Vets against the War and talk with them about their actual experiences ... they are doing very good work dispelling the lies of the recruiters and are very open about the realities of their service ... take a look at their site for a contact near you: heep://www.ivaw.org and check out their Truth in Recruiting info - http://ivaw.org/truth.
ps - here's a link to their local chapters: http://ivaw.org/chapters
Siun makes a great suggestion.
All, thank you so much for your many good ideas....we'll start using some of them....certainly we'll keep talking to him. We're in San Antonio and I am trying to get us an in to BAMC or the Intrepid....but it seems to be rather difficult to get in there to be a volunteer....I really think they do not want regular people seeing the kids who have been so horribly affected by this war.
I still hope that just time will help....like I said, he's smart. But I am worried about what he ultimately wants....you ask what he wants to be in 10 years and he says a soldier. That freaks me out....and the non com recruiter is telling him that the officers who come out of the ROTC or service academies are not as good an officer as the ones who start out enlisted and grow in the ranks. I told him that was only her skewed perspective as she has a bias against the educated officers.
He's a huge movie fan and has a great eye and critique....we watched Dr. Strangelove last year and he's a fan of the Mash movie....so maybe a few more movies will help too.
I also told him that once he gets in he'll end up with some girl pregnant and have to get married and there he'll be at 22 with no education and mouths to feed and he'll never be able to make enough money to do the things we do now with him....like hop on a plane and go to NYC for a week or go to Paris or Florence or San Francisco....he truly does not understand what an easy and great life he has....so I am still hoping that just a clear and constant voice from us about how hard it will be later will be enough to help him see that this is a blunder of monumental proportions. Or maybe I am just blowing smoke up my own ass on this.
abo gato:
I understand your frustration. My situation at 17 was very different, I was developmentally arrested and deeply clueless. That I ended up working at a grocery store in my 30's has a lot to do with that, but I'm pretty sure that nothing short of a letter to myself sent backward in time could have gotten through to me and made me understand some of the harsher realities of life in the post-80's world. Youth really is wasted on the young, isn't it?
Oh, and the business with that recruiter tricking those poor, dumb kids into raising their right hands and taking an oath, telling them that it won't commit them to anything? Just when I think I'm as cynical as the world can make me, I hear something such as that. Those poor kids who went along with that shit are toast. Buttered toast with a side of scrambled fucking eggs.
hell the recurters even lie to each otehr..one of my brother in laws was an army recruiter (creepy guy, don't like him much) he retired after his 20 years, didn't like civilian life and whent to sign back up (understand taht he has 3 kids from his first marrige, and jsut had 3 kids with my wifes sister). He was "promised" a recuriter gig (as he won awards in teh past for makeign his numbers)...most of us told him that he was nuts...guess who is pulling convoy gaurd duty in iraq right now.
Payback is a motherfuck3r.... HAH!
the upside (well for me at least) is that he oes me $50.00. i told him he would be infentry in iraq....he of all people should have known that recruiters lie.
My son is with Battle Company and these past few months have been a rough stretch, especially with the harsh winter. Even though my son grew up in Maine, and experienced twenty plus below zero weather before, he said he never had a desire to go camping out in it. In spite of the loss of two of his friends and the loss of many others he knew closely, he has kept himself focused and positive without having to resort to antidepressants. "The KOP is unlike anywhere else in the world," he says. "One moment you can be sitting in awe of the incredible beauty of the valley and the surrounding mountains, and the next, be faced with incredible savagery from the enemy." It is good to see his company and the men he serves with get the attention they deserve.
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