Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Keep it up, they're insightful and enjoyable to read.
clark smith | 12.09.04 - 5:12 am | #

100% Matthew,

It is a necessity to speak out sometimes especially if the CO is blessed with ignorance and stupidity, but choose your time, place and audience correctly. If we ever spoke out like that it would mean a long hard PT session, normally in full combat gear with rifle and ammo.

Please do excuse the bad grammer, English is my second language.

Regards
Jan | 12.09.04 - 6:29 am | #

Matt,
Like your 10% rule, this is another issue that is universal. At work in meetings with management, I occasionally hear the most unbelievably inappropriate complaints issue forth from colleagues. I have come to call it the "It's not fair" mentality, and it seems to reside in adults who refuse to grow up. It's definitely more than 10% of the general population, though.

Very cool story about the Chief.
Peg C. | 12.09.04 - 6:39 am | #

Amazingly stupid. Some things just are not done....

I would have given anything to have been a fly on the wall, though.
Wil | 12.09.04 - 6:56 am | #

I retired in 95, and boy do these stories strike home!!
Don't remember the 15 year retirement offer, but do remember a 1 time cash payout.
Jack | 12.09.04 - 7:51 am | #

On the other hand, don't ask for questions if you can't handle the answers. Rumsfeld was wrong, you don't go to war with the army you have, you go with the very best you can. I could tell R. was flustered ,but it's the guy on the ground getting shot at.
Lee | 12.09.04 - 8:15 am | #

As a former Navy Corpsman, that just makes me laugh (your stories). Not sure I ever knew of anyone that specifically requested an inspection by the CO.

I remember at Great Lakes RTC the CO sitting down with us and asking for any complaints or issues... Even a bunch of recruits only complained of rats in the galley. No one asked for an inspection.

As for the Nat'l Guardsman...he should be admonished for jumping the chain of command. He proceeded to make our armed services look bad on national TV...poor judgement on his part.

I hope he (and his unit) get the equipment they want/need...but he should follow the appropriate channels the same as everyone else. Embarrasing Rumsfeld on national TV was completely uncalled for.
Thunder Runner | Homepage | 12.09.04 - 8:31 am | #

Matt, your blog captures the military experience perfectly, in all of it's kafka-esque bureacratic Naval bungling, side splitting absurdity, and sometimes inspirational moments.

Thanks,

Former USMC Corporal
Sean McNeill | 12.09.04 - 10:19 am | #

I remember a visit by Undersecretary Edward Hildago, back in the Carter Years:

Tied up in San Diego, he visited us. Was introduced to several "typical" sailors (all had been "Sailor of the Quarter" at one time or another), when he asked each one if he were staying in. Well, EM1 L______ replied the Navy wouldn't let him. "Why?" "Won't let me have a duty station in Japan." (Rule was, a Nuclear Operator had so many yrs at sea before getting a shore billet. Overseas billets were "sea" duty for all but Nucs, for which they were classified as "shore", and EM1 L____ wanted to spend time in Yoko.)

Anyway, ship's CO was invited out of the Unit Cdr's Cabin, and Hidalgo's aide (Marine Col.) was "asked" to take notes. Hidalgo ended up throwing ashtray across room out of anger.

End of story, rules got changed, shortly after L____ got out.
Jim Shawley | 12.09.04 - 11:12 am | #

I remember those Q&A meetings, and you're right, there's always some idiot who will use that forum to jump chain about some idiotic petty gripe. Sometimes it gets constructive though, and that's why senior leadership holds those kinds of meetings--to get a better feel for what the issues are where the rubber meets the road. And it's usually not wise to have the media there due to the stupidity that usually gets vented.
Ciggy | Homepage | 12.09.04 - 11:15 am | #

Hey Froggy,

Let me tell you about the 278th out of Tennessee.

They used to be an Armored Cav unit with M1s and Brads. One of their BNs scored nearly perfect on a live range two years ago and they had nearly 100% availability on ALL their equipment. This is a no bullshit unit that knows how to fight. It aint some California jobs program with a deadlined motorpool.

When the 278th was activated, they took away the Armor and put the men in Hummvees.

I kid you not. The whole Regiment is now in HUMVEES.

So now you have Armor Branch Captains with extensive training in Armored warfare commanding 18 hummvees and Armor Mechanics maintaining hummvees.

And to add more to this, most of the vehicles are not the uparmored kind.

You take a very proud Armored Cav unit and take away their horses and put them on donkeys, you will get some tough questions. Especially if the unit is a Scots-Irish one from Tennessee.

For Rumsfeld to go in there and face them took a lot of courage on his part. He had to know what he was facing.

It says a lot about the 278th that they were able to re-org and re-train, certify, then deploy!

The 278th is the toughest NG line unit there is. They love to fight. If I had to deploy with an NG unit, it would be them.

If the show with Rumsfeld in interpreted in the light of the above, it makes better sense.

BTW, I have relatives in the 278th.
puredata | 12.09.04 - 11:29 am | #

California jobs program... ROFL!!!

Coffee snort!
Ciggy | Homepage | 12.09.04 - 12:03 pm | #

Matthew,

Great story. As you may also know, this sniveling "it's just not fair" stuff goes on in the biz world, too.

A little hatband-extender: You're my favorite milblogger. Everytime something like this comes over the bow, I check your blog to see what you think about it. I check some other milbloggers (Stryker, B5, WOW, etc.) but you first. Thanks for your insights.

Steve Bragg
DOUBLE TOOTHPICKS blog
Steve Bragg | Homepage | 12.09.04 - 12:27 pm | #

All comments above are right on. Froggy, you are a wordsmith. The same thing happenned at the Citadel every time they opened up the floor, and it still happens in the business world.

As the news junkies now know, however, the "question" was written by a reporter and given to his military escort. The reporter then used connections to make sure his boys got to ask the question. Typical pot stirring press crap, put the SecDef on the defensive, but I thought Mr. Rumsfeld handled it well.
CITADELGRAD87 | 12.09.04 - 12:43 pm | #

I agree that there are a time and a place for such complaints, although I can sympathize with the feelings of all those complaintants, from the woman cleaning bathrooms to the serious complaint of the lack of armor in vehicles.

I do think one thing to be aware of is that the types of attacks the humvees are getting, weren't expected or prepared for before the war. And it sounds like from reports that the company's that produce the armored vehicles are working overtime to see it done. In hindsight, would it have been better to have had all the humvees armored? Of course, but hindshight is 20/20 and they are trying to rectify the problem.

I was actually more interested in the complaint about the National Guard and Reserve units getting needed equipment behind the active duty forces. I haven't really seen anything addressing this much in the media in all the hoopla over the armored humvees.
Just Me | 12.09.04 - 12:58 pm | #

One of the many aphorisms I learned during my 11 yrs of U.S. Army service, "Some soldiers will never miss a chance to bitch." Especially when the big brass is present.
GotDesign | Homepage | 12.09.04 - 1:26 pm | #

Over on www.americanprogress.org today they have some typical liberal "selective" reporting. I did some math on what they reported, and here's my take on it:

1. "In the fall of 2003, they were uparmoring 15 Humvees/month."
2. That's "less than 4% of today's production capacity."
3. Ok, let's say 3.75%. Then today's production capacity is 400 per month
4. "6,500 Humvees in Iraq and Afghanistan are unarmored."
5. There's no mention of how many of them are in Afghanistan (I'll bet most of them, because they aren't experiencing so many IED's there.)
6. "One quarter of Humvees are unarmored."
7. That means that there are 26,000 Humvees over there.
8. That means there are 19,500 Humvees that ARE armored.
9. At a production rate of 400/month, it will take 14 months to uparmor all of the 6,500 unarmored ones.
10. Isn't it a miracle that they've already done 19,500 already?
Even at the current production rate, that would have taken FOUR YEARS!!!

Now, WHEN did the hostilities start over there? Hmmmmm?

The reporter covered his ass by determining and then reporting there were 6,500 unarmored Humvees in Iraq and Afghanistan, but didn't bother to find out how many in each place. The time it will take to uparmor all the remaining ones in Iraq would be easy to compute (and report) if he had bothered to ask for ALL the data.

If some conservative member of the MSM were to publish this headline, the liberal MSM would be all over it like a duck on a June bug:

"Reporting that uparmor production has increased from 15 Humvees/month to 400 Humvees/month (a 2,600% increase since last fall), Rumsfeld has assured troops in Iraq that so far the US has uparmored 19,500 of 26,000 Humvees, and will complete the XXXX Humvees in Iraq in YY months."

(XXXX and YY WOULD have been accurately reported, I can assure you).

The liberal MSM press is about to go away, because they simply cannot resist cooking the numbers to put the worst possible face on ANY news story. As so clearly demonstrated and established by Dan Rather, they are so driven by hate and a desire to discredit, that they are totally obvious, clumsly, and stupid in their efforts.

"TRUTH??? YOU WANT THE TRUTH??? *WE* CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!! HERE, READ THIS INSTEAD!"
dicebucket | 12.09.04 - 1:29 pm | #

The Isrealis got the same treatment from Hezbollah in Lebanon in the 80s. They lost a few men to IEDs and still sweep for and find IEDs on occasion.

So we knew what we were getting into.

The Baathists love bombs and have set them off in various places - including Marine barracks in Beirut.

When my PLT first got its Hummvees in 1990, we loved their mobility and how well the crew could sleep in them, but some things sucked and still sucked.

The original issue dumb plastic mirrors were a joke. My whole PLT lost all its mirrors in one hour of training in the woods.

The BN commander used an M-16 to buttstroke his HUMMV into submission in full BN formation once to show what he thought of its lack of armor and that he was just as annoyed as us.

We spent over 4 grand putting painted RV mirrors on our whole TO&E.

Our CSM said that we would uparmor all our equipment if we had to deploy just as he did as a PVT in Vietnam. He thought we could do it in two days given the plate steel.

They, meaning the brass, has known about the HUMMV problems for some time and FINALLY under Rumsfeld someone is doing something about it.

And its not just the Hummers, but all the roadstock from 5 tons to LMVs to Tractors. This kind of protection should have been built in from the beginning.
puredata | 12.09.04 - 1:37 pm | #

Some people say the silliest things when someone higher is around. However; leaders must get down and listen to the men (and women), if they only rely on their staff or subordinate leaders they can and will be mis-lead. Rumsfeld's courage in taking the questions says alot to Pres Bush's administrations method of leadership. Lead, follow.. or get the heck out of the way. Airborne. js
jesse | 12.09.04 - 1:58 pm | #

Breaking News: Edward Lee Pitts, embedded with the 278th, coached some soldiers on the hard questions that Rumsfeld was asked. Check out the headline at drudgereport.com.
TxFarmerRancher | 12.09.04 - 1:58 pm | #

Froggy as a HM1 Im sure you know the difference between a Sea Tale and a Fairy Tale. A Fairy Tale starts out "Once upon a time..." while a Sea Tale starts out " I shit you not..." I almost fell of my chair reading paragraph #3.
Now serious - The Army always complains. One of the reasons I dont like Black Jack Pershing is that he complained to the Press after his failed invasion of Mex. to get Pancho Villa that the Marines got all the glory! There's a history of whinning in the Army and it started at the top!
Rod Stasnton
Cerritos
Rod Stanton | 12.09.04 - 2:11 pm | #

Drudge is reporting that the soldiers were planted there by a reporter from Tennessee. One of the reporter's earlier articles contains this tidbit.

"CAMP BUEHRING, Kuwait — As 278th officials work to ensure that all vehicles heading into Iraq in the coming weeks are armored, some soldiers in the Tennessee National Guard unit have learned they will fly into enemy territory.

Maj. Bobbie Sprouse, the 278th's supply and logistics officer, said the regiment is to fly more than half of its soldiers to bases somewhere northeast of Baghdad.

Once at their permanent camps, the 278th is to take over armored vehicles now being used by the unit the 278th is replacing, Maj. Sprouse said."

So the 278th is in Kuwait in unarmored vehicles but most of the regiment will fly to Iraq and take over armored vehicles that are already there. There is always more to a story than meets the eye.....
Duane | Homepage | 12.09.04 - 2:31 pm | #

puredata: This kind of protection should have been built in from the beginning.

Depends on whether guerrilla warfare is expected. I don't think the Pentagon expected it.* And to uparmor everything and then not run into guerrillas is to spend huge amounts of cash on fuel for nothing. (There is a reason cars weigh a lot less today than they used to back in the gas-guzzler days - so we can measure gas consumption in miles per gallon instead of gallons per mile).

* Expecting it wouldn't have changed the casualty count by much - many of the GI's killed are being blasted by artillery rounds rigged as land mines - the concussion from that will kill even tankers.
Zhang Fei | Homepage | 12.09.04 - 3:14 pm | #

Matt,

I, too, have no problem with tough questions and congratulate the Secretary for not trying to duck the question about armor or minimize it.

However, the Guardsman was put up to the question. Roger Simon

http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt- ar..._back_the_1.php
points to an article in the Chattanooga Free Press by Edward Lee Pitts bragging about his actions.

Dave
Dave | 12.09.04 - 3:25 pm | #

Zhang Fei, your information is not correct.

The concussion is not the issue. Most of the personnel getting hurt from IEDs are suffering from the cuts caused by shrapnel. Slowing this crap down makes all the difference between a deep bruise or a cut artery.

Unless a vehicle is within a few feet of an artillery shell, and if the occupants are belted in AND the shrapnel is slowed down, then they will survive. Armored trucks, Hummvs, Strykers, Brads, and M1s have been pounded and rolled by artillery IEDs and everyone has walked away and often the vehicle is driveable.

During advanced infantry training we watched various types of foxholes getting pounded by artillery and unless the round actually hits your position, you WILL live and will be able to shoot the gomers that follow the barrage. Its very hard to kill dug in infantry or armored forces with artillery.

As for weight - the fuel use is not that big of an issue. The BIG issue is maintenance - of the springs, axles, bearings, tires, and transmissions. You have to accelerate your Maintenance Orders on these items. Your availability will go down slightly and your deadline rate will increase. A few gallons of fuel is cheap next to a complete driveline replacement.

The new uparmored vehicles have heavier duty drivelines and engines that can take the extra weight. The kits and Haji-built stuff have always been a stopgap measure until the new vehicles could be deployed.
puredata | 12.09.04 - 4:02 pm | #

I have read where an up armored Humvee weighs 12,000 lb. or 6 tons.
this is what an M-113 or a LAV-25 weighs.
is it that humvees are cheaper to replace than real armored cars or are they just easier to ship?
I would like to add once again the story of the infamous Brewster Buffalo fighter in WW2 and the M-4 Sherman both of which were all but useless against what the enmy had.
still our men fought and died yet won.
Are todays soldiers,Marines less men than the old guys were?
as for the media hell they are looking for a story and a ticket to the big time, they don't give a rats a$$ about armor, soldier safety or who wins this war.
Barry 0351 | 12.09.04 - 4:42 pm | #

The question was a plant given to the soldier by a journalist named Edward Lee Pitts with the Chattanooga Times Fee Press....

http://www.drudgereport.com/flashcp.htm

http://www.rightnation.us/ forums...showtopic=62698

The media outta be shot except for Fox News
Mike | 12.09.04 - 7:22 pm | #

puredata: Zhang Fei, your information is not correct.

Thanks for the clarification. I've heard that dug-in troops were fairly safe provided they did not sustain direct hits from artillery. But it's interesting that even vehicle-borne personnel are immune from the concussion (although not the shrapnel) from artillery shell blasts.
Zhang Fei | Homepage | 12.09.04 - 7:42 pm | #

puredata -

Thanks for the information re: uparmored vehicles that even someone as mechanically challenged as I am can understand.
Barbara | 12.09.04 - 9:25 pm | #

The guy asking the question didn't know that the thing was live worldwide. We've been teaching these guys to ignor the cameras for so long that it's finally working. It's common now for cameras to be everywhere all the time. As far as the prodding...It was just that, prodding...the kid thought the question up on his own. And as far as jumping the Chain...That's what the town hall meetings are for and I thank God that our military allows a soldier the chance to interact with his leaders. Could you imagine if that had been a Rupublic of Korea soldier? Well, he wouldn't be around to drive his HUMVEE off to combat.
SSG Green | 12.09.04 - 11:16 pm | #

The guy didn't know what was going on? A reporter tells him to ask it? C'mon.

Here's a cold hard fact of reality every one. Marines wouldn't have launched such a question. Or tolerated it ... and clapped/cheered. Sorry, but those are the facts.
Daisy | Homepage | 12.10.04 - 12:53 am | #

While I agree with all your points about the media, I should remind you that the military has always been at war with the media, and they are not going to call a truce.

When I was in Nam 67-68 (and for years afterward), we had the same problem, EXCEPT, it was at least 50 times worse.

In MHO and many others from that era in our history, the Media lost the war for us. I should say the media, college professors and hollywood.

I do detect that the media has become a little more aggressive lately but I attributed that to it being an election year. Maybe not..

Anyway, a poor ol boy from Tennessee was snookered. His bad..or not?

I will give him the benifit of my doubt and say that the reporter (devil) made him do it !!

This is my post

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
Papa Ray | 12.10.04 - 1:58 am | #

My sister in law is fixing to retire this month after 20 years in the Navy. She's stationed at Gitmo and is dealing with a large ration of shit there right now in regards to a situation that occurred with her son. It's amazing to me the bureaucratic bullcrap that our military personnel sometimes face in dealing with some know-nothing CYA type who has more power than judgement.

After seeing her struggles, I'm more impressed, than ever, at the intestinal fortitude of folks who do this work for a living.
spirit_grrrl | 12.10.04 - 9:39 am | #

There used to be a saying that
"A bitching sailor is a happy sailor."

In any case, the "Town Meeting" type atmosphere and soliciting questions from the soldiers, rather than the press was set up by SECDEF's staff.
The question asked was fine and wasn't on an assinine level, perfectly legitimate even if it was prompted by a newsreporter.

What irks the hell out of me is the way the press twisted Rummy's response. If you read the whole thing, in context he adequately addressed the question. But the press decides to cherry-pick bits and pieces, that pisses me off. If there is a "villian" in all this, it's the Media manipulating things to suit their agenda, instead of laying facts out on the table.
Bucky Katt | 12.10.04 - 12:04 pm | #

Damn, that was an awesome story.

Does he really think that Rumsfeld wouldn't rather have 2 armored hummers for every soldier?

Rumsfeld's actions are at issue, not his intentions. That's why he makes the big bucks.

Honestly, Rumsfeld fielding these kinds of questions in front of the media is the most impressive thing I've seen this admin do in a loooooooong time.
Jeremy | Homepage | 12.10.04 - 12:18 pm | #

I am a reserve CPO with five years active and 19 yrs reserve back from deployment in Sept '03. I don't know what the big deal is. You could be the President up there, the sailors will give you the straight shit. The questions will get pretty pointed regardless of rank if it is a town hall type meeting. I have been to the standard command BS meeting where comms is one way, but, if it is assumed or communicated that its two way it could get pretty ugly. If the CO stands on "I'm the CO and how dare you ask me that" he or she is damned for the remainder of their tour.
Richard Cook | 12.10.04 - 2:18 pm | #

Spirit_grrl:

You really wonder sometimes how the wheels stay on the cart.
Richard Cook | 12.10.04 - 2:19 pm | #

As an addendum chain of command is pounded into peoples heads frequently, but, I have been to too many of these meetings to know that questions will be asked and many are issues that need to be addressed. then again those questions that do not need to be asked......
Richard Cook | 12.10.04 - 2:34 pm | #

Well said, been there done that.
Retured army 05 | 12.10.04 - 3:03 pm | #

Ok, let start with basics.....I am a vet of GW I 89-90, but I am also in the school of history. There was a day that troops marched to the front line, this WAS sped up and MADE safer by the use of HUMVEES. Did it occur to anyone,..that they have ALREADY been upgraded from marching??? Anyway just a rant. The question was fair enough,..but should not have come from a Sgt in that type of forum. I beileve that our sorry Government education systyem and various programs have instilled in us the "not fair" mentality, and you know what,...if you learn that way, man is life gonna teach you a lesson or kill you,..not to mention armed conflict. What happened to "Hey you in the green!...Shutup until spoken too" We're goin soft and it scares me...Ask the Bastards of Bastone about improvising, ask Okinawa Marines about it, or Mei Chong (sp?)Delta Grunts about it,....it is the beauty of being American, given lemon we make lemonade and always win.......but I digress...
DJ | 12.10.04 - 3:26 pm | #

DJ,

Right on.

Semper Fi.
Daisy | Homepage | 12.10.04 - 5:26 pm | #

When I was in the USAF (mid 70's) our squadron (TAC) merged with another squadron (SAC). We had a commander's call where the new squadron was getting to know each other. Our squadron commander asked for questions and comments. A women I worked with said "It is not nice to kill people with nukes." His jaw dropped down around his knees.

At that time she had orders to go to the PI. We told her to forget about leaving the base and that she would be there until she got out. The USAF wanted to keep an eye on her.

Definitely a time and place for everything.
Kirk | 12.11.04 - 1:36 am | #

Maybe it's different in the Navy, but I retired from the Army in 1993 and SOP stood for "Standing Operating Procedure".

While it's commonly not understood correctly in the Army (probably due to civilian use of the term) as it was explained to me (more or less): "If it was standard, there'd only be one - every unit wouldn't have their own. The only thing standard is regulations".
Jay | 12.11.04 - 2:49 am | #

Just a thought...


What if they had kept the 'Jeep'
Larry Conley | Homepage | 12.11.04 - 4:39 am | #

God... That was painful to READ. As delightful as it is to watch people make wildly inappropriate shows of their assdom, it always gives me great discomfort.
Tony | 12.12.04 - 7:06 pm | #

Don't have time to say much at the moment, but I wanted to let y'all know that there is some good material on this matter at the current home page of Soldiers for the Truth:
www.sftt.org

Thanks!
Aakash | Homepage | 12.13.04 - 4:37 am | #

Form Processing
Form Processing | Homepage | 01.06.05 - 3:21 pm | #