Let's not forget the NYPD, FDNY and PAPD basecall caps and other apparel that have been in vogue since 9/11. I'm sorta old school: you don't wear the symbols of organizations you haven't paid your dues in.
The Black Hawk Down "game" is truly beyond the pale.
I don't think I have as strong a reaction as you do Matt, but I definitely see your point. I got a very similar feeling when the Denver Broncos took to offering each other military salutes after touchdowns a few years ago. It made me think of Al Pacino in Scent of a Woman.
Don't you guys have a term for people drawn to stuff like this- Jocksniffer, isn't it? I fully agree with you about things military, but I think you go too far with the Armstrong jerseys- is it also true for a hockey or baseball or football team jersey? Sports teams exist to be supported by fans. The military doesn't, and there are ways for civilians like me to support the military, but this ain't it. These guys just don't get it. I would like to know, in all sincerity, what you think of a civilian wearing BDU pants or a military styled cap, no uniform or insignia. Is that too, poseur? Also- how do you feel about games with historical scenarios, but fictitous characters? I think it would be O.K., perhaps even good for kids to play a game that was set in WWII, and tried to give some sense of the struggle of combat. Let the kids get "killed" a few hundred times trying to figure it out so they can be amazed that people actually got through it with out the mulligans. Maybe they'd gain a little appreciation, and if the game is done right, a little history lesson. BTW, the Navy has a video game recruiting tool out now- but it's apparently fictionalized.
Matt,
I saw the games in Holland when my nephew asked me to buy them for him; I saw no harm in doing so because he is only 11 years old. I believed it might help him become as enthusiastic about the military as I am, help him identify with something other than rappers and dope smoking idiots.
But with recent events still fresh in our hearts and minds and by following your blog for the past few months I do believe differently now. We don’t have as big a problem with wannabes as you have in the US and generally past wars and events are not spoken about or immortalized on film. I therefore raise my voice in disapproval with yours.
On the point of wearing insignias, I saw a daredevil motorbike jumper on TV (discovery) called Bubba Blackwell or Blackburn. He was wearing his Trident and Jump wings on a civilian shirt; I’m not disputing the fact that he is an ex-SEAL. But isn’t it against the norm or as we called it the unwritten rule to wear unit insignias on civvies, just wondering?
As for the idiot, who posted his remarks first. Wrong place to try and pound your chest, you don’t even have the guts to print your name.
Jan.
Some Proceeds from the game go to the special operations warrior foundation, and theres a lot of ex-military and current military that play that game, I used to, its not a great game, but i can understand why your pissed off, more so if you knew someone involved in that operation.
and the person that made the first remark is and ass
Ok, I'm going to try and post a rebuttal to this comment, which I find a bit strange, to say the least. The main reason for that is because you sure picked an interesting video game to criticize. I have played the PC version of said title, which has been around for a few years. For that reason, it stuns me why this comes up now. In addition, I'm assuming you have a bigger problem with such video games like Battlefield 1942 and Vietnam, Medal of Honor series, Brothers in Arms, and the Call of Duty series. Those all deal with World War II or vietnam.
Pressing on, I find this game strange to criticize because I find it pretty much accurately depicts what Mogadishu was like for the graphics and gameplay available during the creation of the game. It is not a spit on, I found. Instead, I found it more to be an accurate depiction. The end of the single-player experience revolves around the fact that you are way outgunned, and you have to try to assist best as you can, and also survive with your team. I suggest you actually play it and then rewrite another column about it. The game actually (if I recall correctly, I apologize if I am mistaken) makes a form of a tribute in terms of the sacrifices and the loss of life. WWII games do alot of the same stuff.
Good day.
Froggy, I suggest you give the folks at the warrior foundation a call to find out the story behind Hillary Clinton's involvement in that DC event. Briefly, John McCain was in place to be the keynote speaker and when he decided to bow out at the last minute, he did the sofw a "favor" by lining up another member of the Armed Services Committee for the event.
I don't play video games so if I'm late to the game on this and if I have missed other similiar instances then I claim ignorance of the industry. I saw a commercial for this game last night showing one of the Blackhawks autorotating into the ground. As for military people playing it, are you specifically talking about Delta/Ranger/Nightstalker people or some PFC Jones who works in the motorpool?
Maybe I'm way off here, but if they had a game where you had to fly into the Hindu Kush mountains and save a SEAL recon team under fire by hundreds of taliban where the helo gets shot down by an RPG and the game was called "Asadabad, Navy SEAL lone survivor" I don't think that would be too cool. But I'm silly like that.
You are not silly at all Matt,
As I said I bought the PC game for my nephew, as I watched him play it I saw no similarities on both sides. And there is no way in hell that this game or any came can ever bring honor or realism to war and men of war. As for our anonymous friend, you clearly have not heard or experience the sound of an AK 47 cracking in your direction or feel a complete feeling of disbelieve when the shooter is a child aged 14. Then there is the thirst, the SOP’s running through your mind, worries about your mates and that that constant feeling of being shit scared. And I’ve been told it is also very difficult to remain accurate, stealthy and focused if you are wounded and you wish there was some magic medical kits in the field. Just some accurate facts, but hey why take my word for it.
These men honored every military tradition and code; we should honor them and every other soldier in a manner becoming. Just now we create another Rambo who can single-handedly mow down a battalion of VC.
Matt any thought on Bubba the Motorbike Jumper?
Jan.
I do agree that it's very distasteful to base the game on such a tragic event of Blackhawk Down. I'm sure they are purely doing it for name recognition to sell the game.
The report mentions that "..a portion of all game sales going to the Special Operations Foundation." I wonder how much of the probable one percent they are giving, probably just enough to be able to say they are doing so.
As far as the tourists wearing SEAL t-shirts, I must say that I have been known to wear with pride a SEAL t-shirt. With my age very apparent, and being a woman I'm sure that no one thinks that I endured the rigors of the SEAL program. But point taken. I have looked for said contraband and the like to say SEAL mom which I am very proud to be and to feel a part of the extended SEAL family. No one should wear the Trident however, I agree wholeheartedly with that.
I'm waiting for "Roarkes Drift" the video game myself LOL
Picture the reaction of that battle scene!
addendum:
no one should wear the Trident, IF NOT EARNED
I saw this one, too, and it made me ill....also got an email from someone asking me if I wanted to post about his Iraq War video game demo they could try (and I've seen an Iraq War game in stores, too). Needless to say, I declined to post.
In some ways, I guess military based games are a good thing; kids may develop an appreciation for the military, but the Blackhawk Down events, I think, are too upsetting to me to find any value in a video game.
well said Froggy.
Linking it.
I've known SEALs to be very aggressive (even physically) in defending their "trademarks," so I can't say I don't understand your vehemence on this. That said, I'm of two minds on this one, Froggy.
As an ex-SWAT guy, I have to admit that one of my favorite games is the CounterStrike series of games, that involve terrorist/SWAT scenarios and hostage rescue. I take them for what they are... a bit of unrealistic entertainment with which to kill a few off hours.
On the other hand, being prior-service and a veteran, I also understand the pride a member has in their unit. Case in point: a VA patient who angrily and pointedly questioned me about a small tie tack I was wearing (an SF "de oppresso liber" pin). I immediatlely informed him that I was NOT an SF operator, but that the tack had been a gift from an army friend involved in same. Despite the fact that it was intended as a low-key show of support, the SF veteran was clearly very angry, and out of deference to him, I never wore it again.
Sometimes such things are truly meant as a show of respect, and nothing more.
The wanna-be's are usually blatantly obvious, and easily exposed.
Yes the wannabee's you hear bragging in the bars and out places ARE easily exposed. Just ask them what class they were in or any details and they trip up. What's awful is that alot of folks believe their line of shit and that angers me to no end. That they are acting like they had been SEAL's and deservant of said kudo's so to speak, they are beneath slime.
I saw the commercial for this game last week and commented to dh that I thought it was disgusting that they would take such an event and turn it into a game.
Dh, though he likes video games, refuses to buy it. I agree.
I have to agree with Froggy on this one. It's one thing to develop a video game with a war theme, but I have a hard time seeing how NovaLogic can take a specific, tragic event such as this one and make a "game" of it. I don't think its respectful and I don't feel that it honors the men who were there.
"Let's not forget the NYPD, FDNY and PAPD basecall caps and other apparel that have been in vogue since 9/11."
OSAPian, you read my mind. As I was reading this I thought of all these caps.
BUT, I am guilty of buying one for a family member in Las Vegas, since he was from NY originally, and after 9-11 wanted to show support and pride for NY-related things, especially the Fire Dept, who lost so many. I'm not sure I totally regret it.
A video game of any of these things is disgusting. I'm a little less "Free market" on things like this because I see that too many young minds are encouraged to kill/maim/etc. while playing them. They may have no intention of going into the military at all, so from any "scenario" perspective, I don't see value in it myself. In general, I think our society has undergone a coursening and I think video games (not all, but some), stupid and lurid things on TV (did you hear about the new series with a pot dealing mom?) and movies that explore all the rocks most of us would like to leave unturned have done this. So, nah, I am not into a game that depicts the deaths of our military guys. Nice post, as usual, Froggy.
O.K. after a couple of post that implied or stated that they say no true ill being done I didn't have the stomach to read any more of the replay's.
You don't get it????? How is that possible? Matt spelled it out clearly....
"the shameless usurpation of the accomplishments of others by the unaccomplished masses in a futile effort to vicariously experience that which they are either unable or unwilling to attempt in “reality”"
If you didn't earn it, don't wear it. You want to emulate a hero, live like one, don't walk a path via a video game, that another man has made and try to claim any...any...of his character. Get off your ass, get your kid off his ass, get your nephew off his ass and do it.
I went to school full time at two universities, while working 40+ hrs a week just to try and make it to NAVY AOCS... I know of what I speak.
I agree with most of what you guys are saying, I'd like to put my thought out there for you guys to think about. Maybe the people that wear those logos and insignia aren't trying to be you, maybe they are just trying to show support for you any way they can.
The video game is complete BS, I totally agree with you there......
-Dan
Matt,
Hi, I agree on some of your points but Novalogic is donating some of their proceeds of the game to The Special Operaitons Warrior Fund for college for the kids.
Click on Background at this link:
http://
www.blackhawkdownthegame....dfbhdxp_us.html
Regards,
Ray
I think just about everyone commenting this is missing a few very specific elements of this, along with Matt.
Video games are not always about 'oh, cool, high score'. Games like the new Battlefield 2 are just that: virtual war simulators where you try to beat the other team. Novalogic has a history of making highly-realistic military games and simulators. I haven't played Blackhawk Down, but I can speak directly to the -type- of game, and the experience it offers.
Games can cause emotional responses that other types of art or media cannot. Movies don't scare me, books sometimes do, but give me a really scary video game and I'm turning on the lights before bed. It's just part of the human psyche.
I played a game recently called Men Of Valor. It's one of the first Vietnam-based games. I've always had my head on straight regarding Vietnam, and this wasn't a particularly well-designed game engine, but after playing it...I have a whole new level of respect for those who fought and died over there. Why? Because the game gives -just- a taste of the absolute chaos and horror of the fighting over there. It's well written, so you care about the characters as you get to know them during the game and in letters to and from home shown between missions. Watching 'friends' die, trying to help children or women only to have them set you up for an ambush...just general battle moments where you just know you and your buddies are being chopped up by fire from almost every direction...it's a very visceral experience and it absolutely helped me understand the nature of the conflict. The designers put videos between each section using stock footage and documentary narration that taught me things about the war I never understood before.
My point is, I didn't play that game and say 'hey, I'm a badass who survived Nam'. That'd be amazingly silly. I left it with a very somber feeling of newfound respect for the men who really DID fight in that war.
I see no reason why Blackhawk Down wouldn't serve up a similar experience. I can't see how it's inherently disrespectful to allow a person to go through a simulation of what those men went through. In fact, I can see where it could make some of those dope-smoking teens you mention wake up and realize just what a soldier goes through in a completely fubar situation like Somalia where the upper echelon leaves you undermanned, unprotected, and generally screwed for hours while they politic their way around getting you out of the spot they put you in. If done accurately and presented in a serious way (which is Novalogic's reputation), I just can't see -any- harm, and a potential of a LOT of good.
Justin,
Since you didn't mention it, I will assume that you have no military experience under your belt. And while I appreciate the attempt to defend your premise that a video game can be an emotional experience that gives "just-a-taste" of combat action, I will have to disagree.
I have never been in combat, myself, but I have humped an 85lb ruck through the Chocolate Mountains for a few days, performed a 2 day recon of a "target" while sleeping in the dirt, and then assaulted that target with live ammunition, rockets, and demolition charges. The fun part of that evolution lasts about 8 minutes while the platoon is shooting up and destroying a couple of hootches and blowing up a "scud missile", but those other 95 hours and 52 minutes are very difficult and uncomfortable preparatory work to execute that 8 minutes perfectly.
That doesn't even account for the mission planning, gear prep, demo charge prep and the PLO. Nor does it factor in the weapons cleaning, debriefing, and gear maintenance that immediately follows the extraction from that training operation.
So you see, you don't get a taste, you don't get a sniff, you don't get an inkling about what it takes to perform a highly realistic training scenario, let alone an actual 24 hour cycle of continuous urban combat that was actually endured by the guys depicted in that game. You don't feel the thirst, the weight of your body armor pulling you down, the chafing of your H-gear, the blisters in your boots, and you sure don't feel the warm pulsing bright red blood that is coming out of what used to be your swim buddy's right leg.
You feel a thumb cramp and the ice cold Coke going down your throat when you put the game on pause. Trust me, it's not even close.
Mc Cain lined up Hillary Clintoon to replace him? What was he thinking?? I would not pay 2 cents to see her and wouldn't have stayed had they announced the speaker change upon my arrival at the event. I would have let them keep the donation though.
Timothy,
I think you need to take a step back, bud. Froggy has a point about people wanting to live vicariously through others, but that's why people idolize heroes. There are clearly two sides to this issue.
Do military spec-ops and police departments exist in a vacuum? No... we are all funded, controlled, ultimately commanded, by civilians. We may not like it, but it's a fact.
Let me tell you this: it is amazing now much goodwill and cooperation you can purchase by offering some civilians a little "taste," of what you do... a little piece of the magic, as it were. You can gain a huge amount of support by taking mayors, administrators, university presidents (NO dope-smoking teens) along on some "SWAT" training, and handing out a patch and a T-shirt at the end. You make them feel a part of it, and it instantly brings them into your corner (the FBI is good at this). Such people can be extraordinarly valuable advocates, particularly when you need things, like training sites and academic support, and you can do it all without giving away the secrets of the temple.
Forget the macho bullsh*t for a second; this is simple PR, and EVERY organization that's dependent on outside funding knows its importance. That "you're either SWAT or you're NOT!" attitude irritates others. It may be true, but why generate resentment by throwing it in peoples' faces? That kind of chest-beating harms your cause, AND your team. We should all strive to be "quiet professionals."
All that said, I do have a bit of a problem with recreating actual battles for the amusement of the public, though I fully support doing it as a "lessons learned" training aid to those actually in the business. When made for the public (or with a politcal bent) it must be done very carefully and with great sensitivity, or one runs the risk of offending/lessening the guys who actually fought... and that's entirely unacceptable.
"It is one thing to put a video gamer in the digital boots of a fictional warrior fighting a fictional conflict, but I do not appreciate putting couch potatoes in the digital boots of actual US SOF operators."
What part of that statement do you not understand? I don't care about a generic video game about Navy SEALs or Delta Force or whatever. This game is supposedly re-enacting an actual battle. The Delta/Rangers are largely anonymous in the story, but the guys who were shot down and killed or captured are real people, not Ding Chavez from Rainbow Six. Real, actual people. THAT is my problem.
You want to pretend you are a Navy SEAL in a video game for your "taste", fine. But don't play an actual person. If they are going to have actual people as video game characters where are their royalties? Terrel Owens gets paid to be in his Madden Football game, right? If Novalogic got the specific permission of the families of the two Delta snipers (Shugart & Gordon) to re-enact their MOH winning sacrifice of their lives in a video game and paid them for it, then it's none of my business. I didn't read that in the article, but if that is what's happening here then I will update the post and retract my objections.
Froggy,
This is what I'm talking about!!! Keep on writing...no one has your special gifts and insight into something like this. If this even makes one person stop and think, it's worth it.
One of the reasons I stopped watching Law & Order was their "ripped from the headlines" approach. CSI became like watching autopsies once a week...not my idea of entertainment. I saw an interview that they did on Fox with Steven Bochco (sp) on his new series "Over There". Same thing...the line between reality and fiction is getting razor thin! I have to wonder how many people out there are sitting in their livingrooms with a totally distorted view of what REALLY goes on "Over There"? How many are substituting fiction for the news because they really don't LIKE to be told the truth or it doesn't fit in with their lifestyle? In an ever increasing quest for ratings the bulls**t I see mascarading as the evening news or the newspaper is no better than tabloid (I won't even call it journalism - since I used to have a great deal of respect for that profession)!
Sorry...my 2 cents.
Carol
"In making the game we had two goals -- first and foremost we wanted to create a fun and innovative title, but we wanted to do it in a way that honors those who served." and don't forget died you shit-stain.
W-T-F!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fun and innovative!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Call me fuckin stupid but i just don't get it.
thanks for the 411 froggy.
Froggy, I didn't come here to argue with you, particularly since this is clearly a heart-felt emotional issue for you. And there's nothing wrong with that... we all have our sore spots that are best left alone.
You addressed two themes in your original post, the exploitation of tragedy, and the "usurpation" of the accomplishments of others.
The exploitation of tragedy meme I agree with totally; these things should not be done in such a way that emotional wounds are ripped open, or sacrifices of real people are lessened. Can it be done in a way that's sensitive to the families, and respectful of the men who layed down their lives? I don't know... define what you would consider sensitive and respectful. Royalties are an excellent thought. Though I own the book, I never saw the movie "Blackhawk Down"... what was your opinion of that effort?
As far as the "usurpation" point, I had the mistaken impression that you were objecting to all such military-themed digital combat, and people wearing regalia they didn't earn. My point was that the latter, done correctly and selectively, can be an extremely effective tool to accomplish your mission. Such gear definitely shouldn't be something you can just buy in a gift shop, but if it's done by those involved (and to their benefit), I don't see the problem. It's not reality TV, it's community relations and bridge-building (sorry for the buzzwords).
As to the main thrust of your argument, ie. that we need to be respectful of the warriors, on that point we agree.
If the families of the slain officers are against this game, then I fully understand why this is an issue. If the families ok'd it, then it is their decision. It doesn't make it right and I still wouldn't buy the game, but it is their decision. Maybe when the rights for the movie were sold, the rights to the video game was included.
It may be that some play the warlike video games because they are unable to join the military. Maybe some, like me, regrets not taking their brothers advise to join the Air Force or Navy. I play Ace Combat because I know I'll never be a pilot and it's as close as I'll ever come to being in the cockpit of a jet. I don't think I'm a hero and I certainly know that flying and war are way different then a video game.
I wouldn't even go see the movie Black Hawk Down. I had seen the news footage and that was enough for me. Maybe the events were too fresh in my mind, or I knew the movie would be too realistic and I didn't want to see the barbaric killing of those fine young men on the big screen. So there is no way I'll buy the game.
How do you guys feel when movies are made about real people such as famous generals, Presidents, or victims of crime? Aren't the actors just playing at being heroes? And yet, I believe that the positive military movies about WWII were inspiring and helped bolster the moral of our nations citizens during that war. Sgt. York is a terrific WWI movie, but it doesn't really go into the horrific details of that war. Now we get realistic movies where we can get a feel for what war is like and I think this is one reason the anti-war movement is gaining momentum. If movies in the 40's had shown the true horrors of WWII, perhaps citizen moral would have started to crumble back then too.
As for military hats and clothes. It is presumptive to assume that all those who purchase items with military logos do so in order to pump up their self image and ego. My Dad bought me a Navy ball cap that commemorated the ship he served on during Korea and I'm proud to wear that hat. I also have hats that commemorate the Arizona and the Missouri that my Mom bought for me after a trip to the Arizona Memorial. I wear my hats to honor my Dad, the military, and all of those who served. It has never been my intention to dis-respect the military.
I wear fatigues when I hike, not because I want to be a faux military gal. I wear them because my brother, who was in the Air Force, told me they were the best hiking pants and he was right.
Maybe it might help to know that most people who buy these items are not doing it to dis-respect those who have served, but to show their support and love for those who have served and those who still do serve.
TNG,
With respect to the issue of usurpation, I described a specific scenario (tourists in Coronado) that I feel was particularly egregious. Do we give people SEAL Team ballcaps? Yeah, of course, but we gave them out to people we knew would appreciate them and probably use as more of an office decoration anyway.
I'll tell you a secret. When I was stationed at the Naval Hospital in San Diego before I went to BUD/S, I bought a small trident and pinned it to my hat because I knew I was going to be a SEAL someday. A SEAL Chief corpsman that worked at the hospital as an instructor took me aside and explained to me that I had no business wearing that until it was awarded to me at the Team. He was actually really cool about it because he knew me and knew that my intentions were not malicious just over anxious.
That was one of the most shameful moments of my young life. I felt like a total piece of shit for what I had done. I was a piece of shit for doing it, motivations notwithstanding. When I had my Trident pounded in to my chest at ST4 I finally understood the feeling of pride and relief of obtaining something that I had worked so hard for years to get. I have earned the right to wear that Trident, but even I don't go around wearing that gear. Do you know why? I never went to war with the Teams like my fellow Teammates of today. That's not my fault, I was standing by prepared for 10 years. But still, I have reverence for a symbol that holds great significance and is emblematic of excellence that few have achieved.
The Blackdown Down video game is a moral outrage, as is as the new FX TV series "Over There".
If it has to be explained to you what is wrong with turning the Iraq war into a soap-opera series, and profiting from the death of our soldiers in Somalia, then your conscience is in a pretty sorry state.
Matt,
Check out bhd93.com. Tribute website to the actual Veterans of BHD and some still hang out there. Game has been discussed extensively.
Brad
Froggy,
You’re lucky I did not catch you with the Trident on before you went to BUD/S, I would not have been as nice as that Chief. I would have so kicked you’re a$$, just like in the Teams (the good old days).
Julio
P.S.
Tony B
The one who started the salute for the Denver Broncos was a Marine Corp. Vet - (RB) Mike Anderson, so please don’t speak bad of the 2006 and 2007 Super Bowl Champions.
"No; our Washington wears not borrowed glory. To Gates, to Greene, he gave without reserve the applause due to their eminent merit" (from General Henry Lee's eulogy for George Washington.)
Seems like for many today borrowed glory is all they get. The sad thing is that so many are content with that instead of the real thing. There are still heroes (thank God), but there are also many who do not and will not answer the call of duty.
Does anyone know what the percentage is that goes to the Special Ops Foundation?
Or if the families were approached and asked their permission?
When my two nephews were growing up they wore camo pants on a regular basis and often T-shirts that said Army. When they turned 18, each joined the Army because they always knew that was what they wanted to do. One earned his Ranger patch, served 5 years at Fort Bragg with the airborne, transferred to Fort Lewis and deployed with the first Stryker Brigade as a recon scout leader. The other became a combat engineer and deployed and served his year in the Tikrit area. These days I often see their father wearing a Ranger T-shirt. I doubt their father wants anyone to believe that he was a Ranger, but I suspect that he is very proud of his two sons accomplishments. In my opinion, most who wear military type attire or FBI or NYFD hats are simply showing their support. I do agree that there is a limit to what should be considered acceptable.
On the other hand, the making of Black Hawk Down video game is disgusting. In my opinion there is no excuse for making such a game. When my stryker nephew was home on R&R I told him that some company had made a game about a stryker brigade battle. His response was that it is sick that people are making what is happening over there into a game. Too many people are so detached that they think it IS a game...war is definitely not a game.
I watched the Black Hawk Down movie a couple of years after it was released. It took me that long because I had seen the documentary and didn't feel the need to watch Hollywood's account. However, after learning that the movie met the approval of those who were there and survived, I felt that watching it might help me to understand more. I probably won't watch it again because it is too tough to watch, but I have no regrets...I thought it was a very good movie.
Froggy,
I play "Blackhawk Down"... I also play "Battlefield Two", as well as other FPS (First Person Shooter) Games. The folks that I play with are not only multi-national, but also the most appreciative of the various Armed Forces of their countries, and their allies.
Blackhawk Down attempts to recreate the situations leading up to, and following the Blackhawk Down fiasco. I'm not going to try to change your mind, as I can understand your position, and I appreciate your sentiments, but the game designers did take pains to ensure that what is portrayed in the game does not dishonor the noble acts of the operators, while at the same time letting the "average Joe" on the street know what the life of a war-fighter is like.
The technology of these games is being used for situational awareness and tactical decision making in our own Armed Forces.
In my opinion, I think that this does, as far as the computer world is concerned, the same thing that "Top Gun" did for Naval Aviation. I think that there are many folks who play these kinds of games now, who will seriously consider signing up to do the real thing in the future.
I don't think that any disrespect is intended. The New York Times decries the lack of modern day heroes. You and I know many who qualify. These days, instead of putting them on trading cards, they make video games of them. And if my kid learns about Somalia via a Video Game, well, at least he learns something, because they sure as hell don't teach about Delta Force Operators in the public school system.
I'm opening myself up here, and you can blow me out of the water, but I've played the game, and I can assure you that I found no disrespect to our warfighters.
In addition, I have NEVER heard of a single gamer who claimed to be anything other than a player in the game. I have never heard anyone claim to be a member of the Special Operations community soley because they played a video game.
You can see this as a slap in the face, or you can see it as a chance for the general public to appreciate how hard the life of a Special Warfare operator really is, and, somewhere in there, a certain degree of homage to that community.
And they're selling like hotcakes, which means more money going into the scholarship fund for the kids of fallen operators, which can't be a bad thing...
Semper Fi.
TheNewGuy,
You shot your self in the foot before you really got started....
"You can gain a huge amount of support by taking mayors, administrators, university presidents (NO dope-smoking teens) along on some "SWAT" training, and handing out a patch and a T-shirt at the end."
They earned it. And I hope the reward only represented the brief experience, not a lifelong pursuit of service.
I'm sure we would agree on a few things over a beer, but so far, we will not agree on this.
Cheers,
Timothy
I hate to say it, but I think you have totally misrepresented the nature of the game. The event described in your post is not even depicted in the game. The only thing that the game shares with the movie and the book is the title and the setting: somalia. While I agree that making a game about current/real life events trivializes the sacrifice of those who faught, I cannot agree with you in most of this post. Until you have seen what is contained in the game and the way it is portrayed, you cannot say anything about the accuracy of the depiction. Looking at the cover and automatically condemning it is not unlike denying someone a job becaus they are a different ethnicity. It's like the old, worn out cliche: you can't judge a book by it's cover.
Stereotypes are very convenient, aren't they? Saying that video gamers are "a bunch of stoned high school kids" and "couch potatoes." I thank God every day that you are wrong. If you were right, I would not be most of the way to earning my commission as an Ensign in the Naval service. I would be a fat, stoned highschool dropout instead of the Midshipman Second Class I am today. Thanks for the misinformed representation of me and most of my friends. It makes me glad that I read your post overyday.
my boyfriend died on that MH-47. at the service in VA Beach, I was handed a Trident. by whom, i have no idea. someone in uniform who i couldn't see through my tears. I don't wear it, but it is without a doubt the most sacred thing I have these days. i carry with me everywhere. i don't want to disrespect those men who have earned it, but i feel with what i've been through, i should at least get to keep in in my possession, next to me, in a purse or pocket or even on a necklace, if i so choose, because i honor him and i lost him. is that ok?
if i had to watch a video game of his death, i would be sick. our society is turning fun backyard, childhood games into numbing, remote-controlled junk food for the brain. my kids will never own video games. i hope they'll enjoy doing more mundane things such as reading and playing outside. i feel for their families. just knowing it exists must be awful for them.
Heh... not sure what you mean, Timothy... my muzzle awareness is entirely too good to shoot myself in the foot.
Those mayors and administrators have certainly not "earned" the right to be on a SWAT team... I'd never want them behind me in the stack.
What I was referencing was the ursurpation argument. Operators are within their rights to hand out a few goodies (even for simply coming out and watching some training), provided they think it's appropriate, and provided it aids their mission. My point was that this strategy can pay huge dividends, and doesn't necessarily represent stolen honor/valor/heroism. Lance Armstrong isn't a SEAL, but was wearing a SEAL hat on TV (that some operators from 10 had given him)... good press is always welcome.
We can disagree... doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Cheers right back 'atcha 
Tom,
When you pin on your butter bars I'll call you sir, but until then you are a naive kid that plays video games with his friends. If you spend some time at the www.bhd93.com forum which is where some of the guys who were there have posted extensively on your game. That's where I got the link to the interview.
As I suspected, they aren't giving it the rave reviews you are. I don't need to actually play the game to know that the premise upon which it is being marketed is exploitative of the heroic actions of men who died for the country you are seeking to serve.
S,
I am sorry for your loss, and I hope that the trident you were given allows you to remember the heroic actions of your boyfriend. I'm glad you have that to remember him by.
Froggy: All I can say is, I highly doubt the guys you're mentioning appear as characters in the game. They may be mentioned, but I GUARANTEE they aren't 'playable' and likely don't even show up, unless their names are mentioned.
Every interview and article I could find on the game makes it clear: it takes place on that day, but does NOT completely recount everything in the book, everything in the movie, every detail.
Something in the same interview you quoted that was missed:
GameSpy: You mentioned "subject matter experts" before?
Wes Eckhart: We had U.S. Army (ret) Lee Van Arsdale and Sergeant First Class John Collet (who was quoted in the book and was awarded a Purple Heart), who were both there on that day. Both were both advisors for the game and advisors for the movie. We also used Sergeant Major, U.S. Army (ret) Ray Gentry (former Special Forces) as a consultant. He wasn't there, but he's been great for tactics and weapons information.
So, they have two Rangers who were on the ground that day involved in the battle, and a former Special Forces SM who works for them to get the details right.
Do you really, HONESTLY believe this is just an attempt to cash in on the deaths of these guy's brothers? You really think that little of the same Special Forces you're always defending and (rightfully so) touting as the finest men the nation has to offer?
I think you're letting your emotions blind you to the fact that you're voicing opinions on things that you don't understand. You said yourself: you aren't a gamer, you don't play games, you haven't played this game, hell...this game has been out for TWO YEARS! It's just now come to consoles, it's been out for the PC since 2003.
All I'm saying is that you condemning this based on things you don't know. Are these men referenced? Are -any- real names used? Are the situations set out in the game identical to what happened, or just based on them? Is the single-player game true to the soldier's experience? Does it dishonor the soldier in any way?
I know you think it does just becaused it exists...but several of your fellow soldiers disagree enough to help them design the game. I just hate to see someone I respect take so strong a stand on something based, I'm sorry, out of ignorance.
I'm growing tired of this back and forth. I don't like the fucking concept of the game. This is my website. Get over it. I am not going to come to your house and kick your ass for playing it. I am merely trying to elucidate some thoughts that occurred to me upon hearing about it.
Are they cashing in? Fuck yeah, they are. They're tossing SOWF a few bucks to shut people up like me who have a problem with it. I decided I wanted to say something anyway, so sue me.
I really don't care if you get to actually play guys that died or not. It is the principle that I am getting at. I am talking forest, you are talking tree bark.
I'm starting to get a little disouraged here. If I never was in the military, can I discuss at all things military with those who are/were in? Should I not read first hand accounts in books because I'd only be fooling myself that I had any concept of what actually happened? Is there no way that outsiders/civilians can legitimatly try to get a little 'in' to the military community without having a child or spouse in? That's honestly a big part of the reason I come to this blog. If I took the attitude that I'm seeing creep out here from some (even you, Froggy), as an Architect, I guess I'd tell my clients that they don't and can't understand design, they didn't go through the schooling and work experience, and research, didn't work in construction, never smashed a thumb with a hammer...- just leave it all to me, and if you don't like the results, well- what do you know anyway? I think that's just a little harsh, and there has to be a middle ground. I understand the attitude of 'leave the honor for those who earned it'- My dad was in the Army, but he never called himself a veteran because he got in right after Korea, and didn't see combat. I get it. I realize that it's different than sports, but when little kids play at emulating sports heroes, the athletes are honored (I hope). Shouldn't our military feel the same? I'm still not sure about this game, it seems iffy, but it's drawn out other issues that trouble me. Perhaps a post on acceptable methods of showing support for our military without stealing honor...
As a big supportor of our military and a huge fan of our special operations groups, i am a little dismayed at your line of thought here. Your logic would basicly preclude having a video game set on D-Day in Normandy, a huge historical event. Or furthermore lets talk about the game Battlefield Vietnam, every map in that game is based on historical events. Yes, I am also for the record a huge gaming fan, and no i am not and have not served, one of the major regrets of my life. However not everyone can be a warrior..that's what make you guys special, and why i admire you..
Just my two cents
That is the trouble with some people..."It's just a game". These men who give their lives are not plating a game. Terrell Owens is playing a game.
There are so many interesting points made here on both sides of the issue. Here are just a few of mine - for what they're worth.
First - I agree with Froggy. No matter how well intentioned or what percentage of the proceeds that the creators of this video game donate to the Special Operations Warrior Foundation, this game is plainly exploitive and, I believe, insulting to the men who fought and died in Somalia. They could have created a similar game and called it by another name without having offended anyone, but then, of course, they wouldn't have made as much money. Read the "Interview" linked on Froggy's post to get some insight into the thinking of the people who produced this game. I found the following question and answer to be particularly telling:
GameSpy: "How can you model the "inexperience" of the Somali rabble, yet still be fair to the Somali people?"
Answer: "Wes Eckhart: That's a huge concern."
Well, isn't that nice.
Second - To me there is a distinct difference between wearing a tee-shirt or cap bearing the logo of an agency or "team" that you admire and wearing the official insignia, pin, medals, badges, ribbons or patches that are meant to be worn ONLY by those who have earned that right. The former is harmless; the latter is inappropriate and in some cases illegal.
No matter on which side of this issue you find yourself, all you have to do is read the post by "S" who suffered the loss of her boyfriend in battle. Her heart wrenching words settled the argument for me. Yes, she has the right to carry the trident that was given to her in honor of her boyfriend's memory. That she should have to suffer further hurt by seeing his loss turned into a video game is beyond offensive.
Froggy
Your point is very clear to me and I detest video games. Black Hawk down is not a hollyweird fantasy bullshit story made to entertain the masses. It was real and Warriors died and were desecrated by the scum they were trying to help. This "game" and in my opinion the "movie" are beyond disgusting. No respect is being given. It’s all about exploitation. The entertainment industry in all its forms doesn't give a damn about respecting our Warriors. Have you seen that crap show "over there" yet? Just another opportunity for hollyweird to demean our Warriors and make a little cash.
Look folks, clearly there is a difference between the telling of a historical event in a movie (if done right, and BHD seems to have been done right) and putting people into the 'game' of the Mog on that fateful day. It's a bit too close to the vest. WWII games that don't track real individual characters are at least slightly removed from the personal characteristics of BHD-'The Game', and that may be a critical distinction.
This game is *way* too close to the vest. Period.
If they aren't trying to cash in on someone else's loss, why name it "Blackhawk Down" linked with the movie and book of same title?
Froggy's right. its not even a sniff of what its like to sit in the bush for hours or days on end waiting for something to happen, for that face you saw in the briefing to walk out of a hut.
Its not fantasy, its not fake names, in a fake scenario, on a fake premise. Its real people, in a real situation that actually happened and people died, never to walk this earth again after giving up days and years of their lives to do something honorable.
How hard is that to understand?
Why not make a Video game called "9/11: Twin Towers Takedown"!
Its beyond disgusting.
Based on some of the arguements here you might as well slap a label on a US Army recruiting poster saying:
"US Army: Just Like the X-box. Except you die."
I stand with Frog on this one. Not that it means a hill of beans. But I find the premise disgusting that someone would do this.
Okay, so we condemn any immersive or interactive game, or production that even dares to portray watershed events in the nation's history.
I should cry out against the "Medal Of Honor" series because it shows a first person perspective of a Marine caught in the Pearl Harbor attack (my grandfather was the Engineering Officer of the USS Oklahoma, and spent the rest of December 7th walking around on the keel of his own battleship...) or any of the battles during the island hopping campeigns because, as a Marine, I don't want my vaunted service's experiences to be shared by anyone else with a passing interest in what was going on at the grunt level.
Or maybe I should take Warner Brother's to task because they had the temerity to portray an animated rabbit wearing Dress Blues and marching to the Marine's Hymn...
I'm telling you, this is one of the only ways that the average Joe is ever going to gain any appriciation of what the guys on the ground go through, because the mainstream media AIN'T gonna do it.
As far as the game goes, the only scenario that even comes close to an actual Blackhawk crash site puts the player in a overwatch security position, while a SAR team pulls out the flight crew (all of whom, in this version, survive). There's no dragging of Americans through the street, and you don't play any of the primary folks involved in the actual operation.
And, if you aren't careful, you actually learn a little something about the events of the day.
Like I said before, you can look at this as a slap in the face, or you can look at it as a chance for the rest of the "great unwashed" to learn what it was like during that period of time. I'll take the latter view. In no way, shape, or form is there anything demeaning or dishonorable to our war-fighters in the way that the game is presented.
Like I said, I appreciate your position, and your arguements... Us Marines are kinda partial to the title we earn, and don't like folks wearing our regalia or claiming our title without earning it either, but if we didn't grant a wee bit of leeway, the would have been no "Flying Leathernecks", or "Defense of Wake"... Nor "Full Metal Jacket", "Boys From Company 'C'" or "A Few Good Men"... Avalon Hill (which makes an outstanding series of tabletop games) would have gone out of business a long time ago, and the various training commands would have had to develop first person perspectives all on their own, instead of having the computer geeks of the various companies create the models, and the animation...
And the country would be running around totally ignorant about what we war-fighters actually do for a living.
I've established my bona fides... I was a grunt, I engaged the bad guys at the squad and section level, but I always wondered what it was like to be one of the high speed/low-drag Special Ops - types... And this is pretty much the only way I'll ever know... Take it for what it's worth.
Bloodspite,
That was the money quote on this issue, 'Based on some of the arguements here you might as well slap a label on a US Army recruiting poster saying:
"US Army: Just Like the X-box. Except you die."'
Why couldn't I have thought of that?
I'm a huge supporter of the military. I also like to play video games. (Nintendo! W00t!) However, I always found myself at odds with the military-themed games based on real-life events. I thought I was the only one.
Maybe it's because I feel some things are just too much of a sacred cow to touch to be turned into some kind of electronic joy ride.
I mean, what is so compelling that you'd want to actually recreate events Normandy on D-Day in a video game, knowing full right well the horror our soldiers went through that day? I'm sure they don't want to relive it.
I understand that they've tried to show some reverence, but like others have said, it seems like they've sold out their principles to make a few bucks.
Me? I'd rather being playing Advance Wars. (A turn-based strategy game.) At least I know that's total fantasy. I don't play games to recreate real-life events; I play games to escape and have fun.
just wait for the video game where you can play a terrorist who places IED's to murder Americans... Complete with video footage from OBL and Zarq telling you how good you are doing...
Not so fast, Julio. The season has yet to be played.
I'll see you Thanksgiving Day at Texas Stadium.
CTG,
You’re my favorite Texas girl so I shall be nice and not speak ill of your Team. OK, I lied, it’s going to be like the Alamo and your team is going to get spanked. When this happens your going to have to convert and become a Bronco fan, then maybe we can become best friends.
Julio
P.S. By the way are you getting me a ticket to the Thanksgiving game and are you providing Thanksgiving dinner? If you are I eat Sushi for every occasion.
Julio,
I have 50 yard line season tickets, lower level behind the visitors bench. I will be there. And, it won't be the first time I've been spanked at Texas Stadium.
BTW-We use sushi for bait in Texas.
Froggy,
I've noticed that some military units sell things like tshirts to the general public for their morale fund. I've seen it happen at events like fleet week in NYC. In Mr. Couch's first book he mentioned that SEAL shirts were being sold at a BUD/S graduation (class 228 if memory serves). Perhaps in this case they were only available to family and friends based on the occasion?
To be honest I have never thought wearing these items would make it appear that I was a member the unit. Seeing your feelings I'm chagrined. But based on where I could buy them, from the unit itself, would you view this as supporting people I admire or rudely claiming achievements which are not mine?
As a soldier I can fully appreciate Froggy's position.
I think different people hold varying opinions on this...some get really pissed about anything others not at all.
Oddly enough when I see women wearing BDU pants, military shirts etc. it doesn't bother me at all, same hold true for kids up to teens. It's those slack jawed twenty somethings that wear something they found at the surplus store because it was cheap and looked cool that I can't stand.
Also, if I ever see anyone wearing a pair of aviator wings they didn't earn...it will be ugly.
And everyone thinks playing video games isn't as dangerous as being on an SF team. Some guy in South Korea just fell over dead after sitting in a cyber cafe for 49 straight hours playing the same internet multiplayer game. He refused to leave his kiosk or the store, and he had been recently fired for missing work while playing the game.
Of course, his activity didn't require any level of fitness, true danger, risk on his part, or interaction with another human being (especially one holding and aiming a gun at him). And he will never be known as a hero, although gaming is huge in S. Korea. However, he DID drop dead. Not a bad way to go really, get to secret level five, find the hidden passage, blow up the alien, drop dead on the floor. I wonder if he saved his game before he went? Wouldn't that suck, to play that long and die knowing you forgot to quicksave.
Having a death due to gaming I fear the fans of Black Hawk Down will now reorganize and redeploy in a last ditch effort to justify making a profit on the monumental sacrifice made by true American heroes. I see members of my profession prostitute themselves on a daily basis in the form of self promotion and glory grabbing. They get the headlines and the acolades, but they are all hat and no cattle. Their efforts are usually piss poor at best, but they are so ignorant they don't realize it. I can understand how infuriating it must be to see those who haven't lifted a finger claim the stolen honor of a great sacrifice and accomplishment. I once spent a summer working with a guy claiming he was going into the Navy and heading right into the SEALS. He was maybe 18, lazy as shit and ignorant to boot. He talked it up all summer like he had already done it. And everyone gave him respect because of it. Finally we found out he wasn't even going into the Navy, but no one seemed to question his previous bravado. He still talks about being a SEAL today.
Jerry,
Bitch slap him for me, will ya?
Hey, you guys keep getting heated up by folks wearing your stuff. How about a womans point of view? Being a woman myself, I wear my guys stuff all the time. I know I've earned the right and it makes me feel like he is with me. Other branches/units T-shirts I accept and say I will wear it to show my support. But hats/pins/patches...?
Thats where I draw the line. I will only accept what I feel I have earned. And Yes, I have been asked. If hes military, then I will tell him how I earned it. If he's not, then I just smile and say, Yes, I did! If you're gonna wear it, you better be ready to back it up.
But no matter what proffession, there are always gonna be wannabees. They just better be prepared if they should come nose to nose with the real thing.
Cat,
Has for family members wearing our unit emblems (i.e. Trident), well that is no problem. Before I gave my brothers and/or friends SEAL shirts/hats I gave it to them with some precautions 1) Never say you’re a SEAL, even if you think your going to get some (for all you guys I think you know what I mean when I say “going to get some”). 2) wearing the shirt/hat does not make you a badass, for some reason, not just alcohol they feel like badasses wearing those shirts/hats, I still don’t know why they do.
As for women wearing our emblems, there is a couple of things that a Teamguy thinks 3) family member (wife, g/f, sister, etc....) so we give them total respect. 4) see #1, I guess “they got some” (for all you guys I know you know what I mean when I say “they got some”) that is an other way to earn a free shirt/hat.
As for wannabe’s, hell there is way to many in this world, but the fun part is embarrassing them in front of their friends, co-workers, or even their family members .
Julio
Taken care of Froggy, and he is so ignorant he doesn't even know it. How many SEALS do you know who would let their coworkers nickname them BA, and let you refer to them with that acronym twenty times a day.
Jerry.
Hey Julio, Just to let you know, in case I misrepresesnted myself, I have never received anything because some guy 'got some'. In fact, I think if I 'got some', and the guy threw me a hat or shirt, he'd be eating it!
i agree with you about the game. it is toying (pardon the pun) with too realistic of an event. i even got mad at the movie. i thought that the way it was advertised that they were going in kicking but and coming out smileing but i wasnt prepared for what the movie depicted as what happened. i couldnt even watch it more than once. but on another topic along the "honoring the military lines" i heard the other day that the teachers of a school near where i live were told that if durning the recital of the pledge of allegenice that if any student doesnt want to participate and not stand up durning does not have to and the teacher CANT MAKE THEM. i personally think this is a slap in the face of every person that has died and are currently fighting to keep this usa safe and free. if they dont want to participate in the pledge to this free country that they are enjoying---then maybe they wouldnt fight to protect the freedom if oh say another dictator was to start dropping soilders in their back yard sort of like that show RED DAWN. maybe they will just sit down and enjoy their freedom, that is until an ak 47 is stuck to their head and they loose that chair. keep it up froggy.
"3) family member (wife, g/f, sister, etc....) so we give them total respect. "
I've got a trident around my neck right now and I'm not taking it off until my husband gets home safe.
I hope that doesn't offend the frogs here, but it's been a rough deployment this time around.
S,
Wear, carry or display your boyfriend's trident in any way you feel the need to and how you think he would want you to. You've earned it. And my heart is with you. I knew your boyfriend through my husband, but not well. I just wanted to send you some support and let you know that I am constantly thinking of you and the other guys we lost and you are not alone in your love for him. Hang in there.
I'm not even going to get into it with the rest of you supporting the game. It's a game that is based on a specific operation where real people with names and faces died. Not a general game about Vietnam, WWII, Korea, Gulf War or any other battle or war that comprised of hundreds or thousands of people.
It's about (whether you will admit it or not) the few people that were killed and the survivors. And that is and will be painful for their survivors, I would think.
You can whitewash it any way you want to, say that it's about the battles 'leading up to' the helo going down or whatever else you want to say. But you will never understand how it is disrespectful and hurtful if you don't after the things that have been said here don't make it clear to you.
My husband lost several friends on the helo that went down recently. To think that a video game titled "Chinook Down" would come out about a battle in the mountains of Afghanistan, but would later be downplayed by the people profiting from the game and from the people that choose to play it, is appalling to me. On all levels. And MY husband is wasn't on that helo. But our friends were.
Please do not tell me that you're playing that game makes you understand what it takes to do my husband's job. It doesn't. Not in any way. I don't care if you've done your time in the service, if you can sit there, in the comfort of your armchair and tell me that playing a video game makes people realize just what it takes to be an operator then you are fooling yourself and anyone who believes the line your spouting.
You don't know. YOu won't until you are in the line of fire. A video game doesn't and won't come close. Please don't try to tell the guy that owns this piece of the web that he's wrong in what he's saying unless you are in the community.
Bravo, Froggy. I can't believe that someone had the balls to make Somalia into a game. Money talks, I guess.
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