rent_to_own writes:
Good grief, who knew that the process of filing a grievance was grieving.

Though somehow, the idea of so many people grieving doesn't really surprise me, after all. They are homeowners, after all.
rent_to_own | 05.17.08 - 12:28 pm | #

Tanta writes:
The problem with that process of grieving is that after "bargaining" comes "depression."
Tanta | 05.17.08 - 12:33 pm | #

apikoros writes:
In the words of Terry Pratchett, "Five exclamation points... a sure sign of insanity!"
apikoros | 05.17.08 - 12:40 pm | #

sdtfs writes:
My condolences to the bereft.
sdtfs | 05.17.08 - 12:40 pm | #

Ministry of Truth writes:
Looks like homeowners are "accepting" the lower prices of their homes.
Ministry of Truth | 05.17.08 - 12:44 pm | #

w writes:
Then they file a grievance over their HELOC once their Tax grievance is accepted.
w | 05.17.08 - 12:47 pm | #

RayOnTheFarm writes:
cookie for the first one that gets a lower property assessment, but still wants twice that on the MLS listing ;)
RayOnTheFarm | 05.17.08 - 1:02 pm | #

Elvis writes:
"My home is a wrothless piece of crap. If I am $350k underwater with my ARM and HELOC, how can you assess it at $250k? Any value you give is too much. I should not pay taxes on this!"
Elvis | 05.17.08 - 1:05 pm | #

w writes:
I assume you should use an assessor who "specializes" in tax grievances as opposed to one who "specializes" in residential sales.
w | 05.17.08 - 1:06 pm | #

Anonymous writes:
Funny how you didn't hear that much about all this on the way UP.
Anonymous | 05.17.08 - 1:08 pm | #

black dog writes:
In a *normal* world I would hazard that this might impact municipal bond ratings not to mention the trifling matter of actually paying teachers or other civil servants. Thankfully, however, we are living in a *bizarro* world.
black dog | 05.17.08 - 1:12 pm | #

Matt writes:
I love property tax revolts!
Matt | 05.17.08 - 1:15 pm | #

RayOnTheFarm writes:
Funny how you didn't hear that much about all this on the way UP.

Actually.. there was a big stink about this in Florida. People who had no intention of moving or selling were getting nailed by rising tax bills because of nearby sales.

The first attempt to deal with this was (iirc) a 3% per year assessment cap on properties which were not sold, nor had any permits pulled (renovation, changes, etc). That helped, but there were still enough complaints that there was a referendum called "Save Our Homes". This gave you some ability to carry your tax base if the house you sold and the house you were buying were both in Florida. Needless to say, the thing barely got passed and put on the books, when the property values started to collapse. Whoops.
RayOnTheFarm | 05.17.08 - 1:16 pm | #

sdtfs writes:
From the article:

Caplan had given up on the house in September but Sherman called him in November when Huntington Town lowered the taxes by $3,644.

"I assumed that nothing was going to happen and if it was going to happen, it was going to be way down the line," said Caplan, a senior financial analyst.

So the senior financial analyst doesn't think that his purchase price wasn't/isn't going to be reflected in the tax assessment?
sdtfs | 05.17.08 - 1:21 pm | #

inOrlando writes:
RayOnTheFarm,

The "Save Our Homes" referendum has cut the funding for my public employer (a library) quite a bit. And most people I work with are still clueless as to how far house pirces will fall and what kind of revenue shortfall we'll be looking at in the near future. Grim times.
inOrlando | 05.17.08 - 1:23 pm | #

Banker writes:
Amazing, well then again ntg is amazing.
Banker | Homepage | 05.17.08 - 1:30 pm | #

RayOnTheFarm writes:
OT,

Bloomberg: Fed's Lockhart Says Slowdown to Reduce U.S. Inflation
RayOnTheFarm | 05.17.08 - 1:41 pm | #

vader writes:
RayOnTheFarm

Yea My price to buy a home in Calif or Fla just droped $200,000 but I've gotta pay $4,000 more for food and fuel this year. So I have deflation of $196,000. Makes me feel so much better
vader | 05.17.08 - 1:50 pm | #

wawawa writes:
I just had to post this to get it out of my system. Bush lovers do not watch it.

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q...h? v=qr8nrRZOpXw

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h...h? v=hrDnpYDQauw
wawawa | Homepage | 05.17.08 - 1:51 pm | #

rich writes:
In my neighborhood, there's houses that are 80 years old and houses that are almost new or substantially renovated.

The tax assessments on the 80 year old houses are low.

The tax assessments on the new or renovated houses are sky high.

It's not fair. But it's just what happened because the tax assessors are lazy and they can fairly assess houses most easily when they are built, rather than raising a ruckus increasing tax assessments of long-time residents and elderly.

I predice that a lot of towns will have to narrow this gap. To make up the revenue shortfall and keep the teachers employed, they'll have to go round and raise assessments on older homes.
rich | 05.17.08 - 1:59 pm | #

mp writes:
wawawa- "I just had to post this to get it out of my system."

It's about time someone said something.
mp | 05.17.08 - 2:07 pm | #

vader writes:
rich

I donna know about that, it is more likely that reassessments in this environment will lead to lower assessments all over as RE drops everywhere.
vader | 05.17.08 - 2:08 pm | #

Tom in AZ writes:
mp

You've got that right. Now if they would move him to the network.
Tom in AZ | 05.17.08 - 2:13 pm | #

Jim A. writes:
I don't know either rich. Rather than strive for more accurate assesments, the trend is to mandate this sort of distinction into legislation. Save our homes in Fla, the homestead exemption in MD: all are institutionalized screwing of newcomers by long time residents.
Jim A. | 05.17.08 - 2:22 pm | #

VennData writes:
How can we allow these people to leave the "tax base?" They will no longer feel part of the community, no longer a kin with other tax payers, no longer ...Americans.

Better if they had declared those property tax increases back in 2000/2001 to be temporary, then later - a.k.a. now - they could fulmigate, rant, rage, scream and shout about how these tax decreases are unfair.

They could even make all their local budget projections thusly and justify the increases. (Sorry Librarian, you're SOL. Move to France if you don't like it here.)

Naw... what numbskulls would do something like that? What morons would fall for something like that? Never happen.
VennData | 05.17.08 - 2:38 pm | #

Unsympathetic writes:
I liked the last 3 paragraphs of the article.

Some chick believes she's "priced right" yet her house has been on the market for 18 months, and carries over $3k more per month in taxes than anything around her.

What's this? $36,000 to throw out my window. I don't need it!
Unsympathetic | 05.17.08 - 2:40 pm | #

Ω◊Ø writes:
Tanta,

How will lower appraisal values impact depreciation?
Ω◊Ø | 05.17.08 - 2:57 pm | #

Ω◊Ø writes:
I see this as a matter of Economic obsolescence in regard to the loss in value or usefulness of a property, related to reduced demand for the asset. Hence, to seek formalized recognition of your over-valuation is like letting the dead cat of the bag, at the wrong time.
Ω◊Ø | 05.17.08 - 3:03 pm | #

MadJock writes:
I've wondered why the US works off a property tax for so much of its revenue requirements at state level - it's guaranteed to be unfair and problematic. It leads to laws such as Prop 13 in CA where in the name of 'stopping old people getting kicked out their lifelong homes' we completely skew the market and nail new buyers at the expense of old.

Why not a rateable value system? Total the property values in the area, and divide that into the total revenue requirements - you get a 'tax per assessed dollar' and people pay based on that. So if your neighbour flips his house for 2x your purchase price it barely affects your rates (may even lower them) - and then taxes vary with both local prosperity (reflected in house purchases/upgrades) and with what the authorities are spending.

It would lead to more predictable income for any region, more direct accountability, older buyers wouldn't be so heavily affected, and authorities don't end up with 'windfalls' in good times and deficits in bad ones.
MadJock | 05.17.08 - 3:08 pm | #

doom writes:
I don't know if it's like this everywhere but in New Jersey the taxes paid are calculated by multiplying the "assessed value" by the "tax rate" of the municipality.

If revenues go down in the municipality and they need to collect more to make it up, guess what? TAX RATES WILL GO UP!!!!

So the homeowners who do NOT get their assessed values lowered will end up paying more in taxes once the tax rates are increased.

Just add this to the list of fustrations for homeowners.
doom | 05.17.08 - 3:09 pm | #

MadJock writes:
The other thing with getting reassessments on the way down - wait until those who've been covered by Prop 13 here in CA find out that despite being assessed at a lower value, they are still above the '2% increase per year' level, and their property taxes don't change one bit despite assessments at x0% lower.

HomeBorrowers love that Prop 13 on the way up, but it's painful on the way down.
MadJock | 05.17.08 - 3:11 pm | #

winston smith writes:
Well all you drones are finally waking up after getting screwed for years. Taxes should not be assessed on the basis of value up or down. your living in it so- why should you be penalized for Values. The problem is- the Schools!!! in bad- shore where i live. the teachers who are worthless are overpayed along with ms. holman who is way-WAY overpayed. i think she makes 380K plus for 9 months and is sure turning out a Bad Product !! If the public had to pay the full cost of their kids education, which they should and, Why Not? the assessments should go up on their houses and for the ones who have No Kids and could care less if we have a school well-- their taxes should go way down. Why Not? I've been paying for Schools for 45 years and i dont know why? Garbage the same- pay per can- less people less pay, more people pay more pay . thats fair isnt it. pay for what you get. like the real world !! Inforce illegal apartment laws-- they are ALL OVER BAD SHORE! Wait till you drones get next years taxes, they are hiding the increase this year at 5.6%. do you get that in your bank ? Where is the outrage? By the way we have been grieving taxes in bad shore on the basis of the fact we have long island's largest toxic plume. What is a house- business worth under a Toxic Plume? Whats a ymca or a st. partricks worth under the Plume-- forget the price decline because thats the economy and all the spoiled brats- you deserve it . Trees dont grow to the sky! Thats another story-- BUT put the two together and the value of a house in bad shore is zero and very toxic. Check out the 56 monitoring sites and pump house in front on the YMCA where your children play. Class Dismissed. ws, mot
winston smith | 05.17.08 - 3:13 pm | #

MadJock writes:
Doom

Yes, tax rates will go up when the local region spends more - it's just the way things are (except if you are the Feds when you don't have to balance the two!). But that way people pay A LOT closer attention to what their taxes are being spent on and work to keep the total regional spending down.

If the tax you pay is the same no matter what gets spent - well why bother, or instead work to get that pork spent on you.
MadJock | 05.17.08 - 3:14 pm | #

Ω◊Ø writes:
Also,

obviously a write off on a loss?
Ω◊Ø | 05.17.08 - 3:16 pm | #

MadJock writes:
Winston Smith

While I do get pissed off by the 'I have kids so I'm better than you' crowd - the simple fact is that *everyone* benefits from a well educated and productive population.

Even if you've saved all your life, when you retire a significant amount of the 'value' of your savings will depend upon the state of the economy at that time - in short, there's no way to escape it.

So it shouldn't be a question of 'Child-free people paying for schools' but rather 'Are we getting the best value for our money?'. My problem is with our seeming inability to be able to question and change how that money is spent.
MadJock | 05.17.08 - 3:18 pm | #

doom writes:
Even if spending does NOT go up, tax rates will be increased if tax revenue decreases in the town.

For example, if 50% of the homeowners get their assessed value decreased and it cuts revenue by 20% then the tax rate will have to be increased by 20% just to balance the budget (with no extra spending).

So in the end the people who do NOT fight their assessed values will be hurt if enough people are successful in lowering theirs.

BTW, this is a great opportunity for the town to come in and inspect the properties for upgrades that were not done without permits. Those homeowners who upgraded illegally will have to eat all tax increases or open a can of worms.
doom | 05.17.08 - 3:22 pm | #

RayOnTheFarm writes:
I donna know about that, it is more likely that reassessments in this environment will lead to lower assessments all over as RE drops everywhere.

Well maybe, but maybe not. Lets try a real-world example:

My mother built a house in 1997. Cost back then (land + house) was around $105K. Assuming the previously mentioned cap of 3%/year increase...

1997 - $105K
1998 - $108.15K
1999 - $111.39K
2000 - $114.74K
2001 - $118.18K
2002 - $121.72K
2003 - $125.38K
2004 - $129.14K
2005 - $133.01K
2006 - $137.00K
2007 - $141.11K
2008 - $145.34K

Homes around her have been listed near $300K and have sold for over 200K (even counting for recent weakness in the market). She still has a way to go before the 3% catches up with the current potential market value of her home. So her taxable assessment will continue to increase (at a subtle rate) for a few years to come.

Moral: some people were so far behind the home price appreciation curve (for tax valuation), that the drop in home values has not yet come down to their level.
RayOnTheFarm | 05.17.08 - 3:23 pm | #

stinky writes:
my sinking fund payments keep increasing. what the h*!l is a sinking fund?
stinky | 05.17.08 - 3:29 pm | #

MadJock writes:
Doom

Yes, unfortunately sometimes as a citizen you have to do work to make sure you get treated fairly - but if your neighbours got reassessed why can't you? As long as the reassessment process isn't overly burdensome what's the problem?

Ray

Yep - I've already heard from people I know here in CA who've seen 100% gains over the last few years and constantly go on about it, while their tax raises have been limited due to Prop 13, bitch about exactly the scenario you list above - except start at $500k and put the raise limit at 2%.

People don't realise that they've been *underpaying* taxes for several years, and they don't like it when reality starts to impinge on their perfect little lives.
MadJock | 05.17.08 - 3:30 pm | #

kidbuck writes:
MadJock writes:
"... the simple fact is that *everyone* benefits from a well educated and productive population."

If this is true we should heavily tax ignorance, stupidity, and sloth. Oh wait, those too stupid to avoid them... do pay taxes.
kidbuck | 05.17.08 - 3:38 pm | #

Anonymous writes:
When I lived in Cook County, IL I would appeal my property tax assessment EVERY YEAR!
I filed my appeal forms on the basis of uniformity errors in relation to neighboring homes having similar characteristics and received reductions EVERY year.
The appeals process ain't rocket science. And if you don't like the result you can appeal the appeal!
Anonymous | 05.17.08 - 3:42 pm | #

MadJock writes:
Kidbuck

Yeah, we already do that though - compare the tax rates for earned vs unearned income.
MadJock | 05.17.08 - 3:44 pm | #

sdtfs writes:
How will lower appraisal values impact depreciation?
Ω◊Ø | 05.17.08 - 2:57 pm | #

Not at all and further you can't depreciate your residence, only income property.

(I am not a tax attorney, although I saw one going into an elevator once.)
sdtfs | 05.17.08 - 3:45 pm | #

gamma writes:
Two things:

first, the stupid people in this country get a free ride and pay ZERO taxes. 38% of the population to be exact, pays NO TAXES. Nice redistribution of wealth to those that are most inefficient with wealth. Talk about a disaster.

Second, the subject of schools. Break the unions! My wife has taught at 3 private schools throughout her career, each in a different city and each arguably among the "elite" schools in its area. These schools work exceedingly well and I don't believe it has anything to do with the fact that the families enrolled there are are very wealthy. I think it has to do with the fact that those parents are committed to EDUCATION and DISCIPLINE and the teachers are as well.

If the teachers fail to deliver on both of these metrics they would not be offered a "contract" renewal at the end of the school year. And note, these teachers make less than public school teachers - but of course they are there for the work environment (not dealing with fights and guns).

Break the unions and bring in REAL accountability for the teachers AND the parents. There have been parents at these private schools that do not show a committment to EDUCATION and DISCIPLINE and their kids are not invited back the next year. Accountability goes both ways - we should be organized for that in the public sector. We are not.
gamma | 05.17.08 - 3:46 pm | #

gamma writes:
let me also add that there are WAITING LISTS for both teachers who want to work at these schools as well as parents who want their kids to attend. create mutual two-way accountability and let those that want it and EARN it rise to the top. "build it and they will come". it can't be done with unions which defy personal responsibility. it also can't be done with money. For 10-15 years CA has spent the 2nd most amount of money of any state in the country and they are always tested in the bottom 5 states when it comes to testing.

progress only flourishes with freedom + pleasure + pain. Take any one of these three things away and you don't have the ability to progress. Americans are too chickenshit to deal with the pain part.
gamma | 05.17.08 - 3:53 pm | #

Estragon writes:
Some years back I was bought distressed core area commercial property at prices far under assessed value. The core of the city was generally overassessed at the time, and as comparable transactions started happening, appeals (and undoubtedly grieving) also started. No surprises there.

What's interesting about the story is the city knew with certainty that revenues based on the overassessments were bogus, and would ultimately be refundable to property owners on appeal. These were no-brainers, based on actual arms-length transactions. You'd think that under the circumstances assessors would want to avoid formal appeals and instead revisit and adjust assessments informally and quickly in order to avoid the cost of formal appeals and to allow city budgeting to adjust to reality. Nope. The response was not only to force owners to appeal, but to openly and deliberately delay the hearing of appeals.

Worse, school taxes were collected with property taxes by the city, but there were no provisions for the recipient school boards to be charged back for the schools portion of appeals (about 1/2 of total property taxes). In other words, for every dollar "saved" by delaying the appeals, two would be ultimately be lost.

Of course, the appeals eventually were heard, the refunds were ordered, and city finances took a serious turn for the worse. Coincidentally, there had been a civic election in the meantime, so the blame could be shifted to the idiots on the old council. The flunkies in assessment had no such cover, and the department was gutted.

Everyone knew it was happening, and how it would turn out. It happened anyway. It will happen again.
Estragon | 05.17.08 - 3:53 pm | #

Anonymous writes:
ummmmmmmmm ... Its NOT THE TEACHERS!

its the SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS who are the dead weight
Anonymous | 05.17.08 - 3:58 pm | #

burnside writes:
Everyone knew it was happening, and how it would turn out. It happened anyway. It will happen again.

I may stitch that into a sampler.
burnside | 05.17.08 - 4:14 pm | #

beachblvd writes:
"When I lived in Cook County, IL I would appeal my property tax assessment EVERY YEAR!"


Were you there when Jake and Elwood were being chased by hundreds of cops?
beachblvd | 05.17.08 - 4:42 pm | #

Belogistica writes:
Re: I am not a tax attorney, although I saw one going into an elevator once..

These people seem to come and go as they please, and I find that really odd sometimes.
Belogistica | 05.17.08 - 5:29 pm | #

Outsider writes:
Several months back I posted that this was going to be a headache to town tax offices. Joe Bloe senior citizen is going to come into the assessor's office with data and room dimensions in hand, showing that Jane Doe down the street just sold for xx less than his assessment, and yet you see here, her kitchen actually has more square feet, and her carpeting was an upgrade, so how could he be assessed higher than her, etc. etc.?

I predict a run on Excedrin pretty soon.
Outsider | 05.17.08 - 5:30 pm | #

Lawyerliz writes:
I tell all my real estate clients that they should protest their Florida non-homestead property this coming September. Yeah, they'll have to raise taxes, but there will be a lag, and nobody likes to raise taxes. People who have had homestead for a number of years are so far behind the curve that I don't think that the 3% increases will ever
get up to the true property values. In my case, the taxes go up about 100 bucks a year on the homestead. I
can afford that!!!

They made homestead transferable, because people couldn't move, because
their taxes would go up too much. I
haven't yet figured out how it works because the proposals went back and forth so much.

But actually, people still can't move because nobody's buying. In fact, hardly anybody is buying at any price. There IS really, no market at all. Well, maybe at 50% off. the hub was watching the news and in Orlando, there was a totally unsold condo. The developer sold the whole thing absolute auction, and was to stupid or honest to have
shills in the audience. The bldg sold out entirely at 50 cents on the dollar. The developer was very unhappy. So that's the mkt. Half off sale, on houses. Ordinary sellers are not willing to capitulate at that discount yet.
Lawyerliz | 05.17.08 - 6:43 pm | #

Lawyerliz writes:
And the grieving thing is very funny.
Lawyerliz | 05.17.08 - 6:43 pm | #

jussumbody writes:
I've been fighting my assessments (to no avail) for 3 of the last 4 years I've been here. They laughed at me in '06 when I talked about a bubble. I'm closing on Wednesday for slightly more than I paid (not counting $16K I've put into the place), and they now want to assess this house at 22% more than the purchase price. It doesn't affect me anymore, but the stoopid assessments were a BIG part of why I put my house for sale 11 months ago (I threatened to sell my house and her response was "Do it, within 2 years you'll get more than [the new assessed value] for the land alone"). I will go to the hearing just to rub their stupid faces in the lower values and to rouse the rable in the hallway/waiting area.
jussumbody | 05.17.08 - 6:45 pm | #

Lawyerliz writes:
Where are you, jussumbody?
Lawyerliz | 05.17.08 - 6:55 pm | #

jussumbody writes:
San Antonio
jussumbody | 05.17.08 - 7:46 pm | #

ozajh writes:
gamma,

1. Public sector unions, and

2. "not dealing with fights and guns",

are COMPLETELY unrelated subjects. The second factor is far, far more important than the first.

In some Australian States, the Public system (which is administered here at the State level) has certain schools with entrance offers made on the basis of competitive examination. In every other respect they are normal Public High Schools; facilities, funding levels, class sizes, teacher salaries etc etc.

In terms of academic achievement, these schools blow away the private schools to the point where the wealth elite complain about "unfair comparisons". And all these schools have long lists of teachers waiting to join, just as you describe for your wife's employers.
ozajh | 05.17.08 - 11:19 pm | #

expat writes:
These are the same morons who were thrilled when the prices of their homes were going up. Even if they were not intending to sell, they loved feeling rich. Morons, idiots, greedheads. And these are bankers, lawyers, teachers, and accountants.

I recall arguments with my brother about real estate (he is in the business). He insisted his area would go up by ten percent for the next twenty five years. I asked him about salaries and real estate taxes. His only answer was that I was an idiot and didn't understand real estate. Now his house is worth about 70% of its peak price but his taxes are still at 2006 levels.

If real estate taxes are dropped, many local governments will go bankrupt or into austerity budgets. I have lived through austerity. It means no more flowers, no sports or extra-curricular activities in the schools, fewer cops, reduced hours in librairies, no parades, etc., etc., etc.

Let them re-assess. It will start giving people a taste of what the depression will be like in two years.
expat | 05.18.08 - 7:22 am | #