a dingo ate my baby.
Are you joking? If not, I apologize for being insensitive.
a dingo ate my baby.
Hey, isn't that Charlotte's line? 
I couldn't resist, the abortion and fetid dingo kidney discussion needed that to begin. 
Charlotte is in South Africa not Australia, right? A wild dog would have eaten her baby.
Vivian,
I am relieved to learn no feral canine has devoured any of your offspring!
Charlotte is in South Africa not Australia, right? A wild dog would have eaten her baby.
Yes, you're right! I was thinking of Meryl Streep using that phrase, but she used it in A Cry in the Dark, not Out of Africa. And of course, there are no dingoes in South Africa.
Thanks Bradley, no harm done.
Why I believe what I believe about Abortion. That's like a "What I did last summer" essay.
Mostly, it's my worldview. I believe that life is a gift, that innocence is sacred and that all life comes from God. I also believe that, for the most part, people participate in sexual activity with the knowledge that pregnancy can and does happen as a result. You can take precautions, and pregnancy still happens. I also believe that a separate life starts at conception. So, being informed by all of that and more, I can not uphold a woman's 'right' to abortion on demand.
I'm not saying that I'd outlaw all abortions. I just believe that, for the most part, it's used as an expensive and unnecessarily dangerous form of birth control.
In high school we had the white girls aborting and the black girls carrying to term. Neither option on the promiscuity meter were good ones. But then, this really does all come out to more than just what I think about a medical procedure. I was the rare whitish girl to carry to term. I was also the only one to give up for adoption. I heard from both sides the same "I couldn't ever give my baby up" but it looked different, one group aborted, the others kept. Neither, again, an actual solution. One girl admitted to three abortions in the time I had my one child, and another girl had three kids by the time she gradutated. (how she did that I'll never know. the graduate part.)
At some point, for my understanding, this issue always comes down to behavior. Sure, there are medical reasons for an abortion. Absolutely. But, mostly, not. That's why this issue is so heated.
""Certainly by the third trimester, I think the fetus/unborn child should be delivered and put up for adoption if the mother doesn't want it. Of course, if there is any conflict between the mother's physical health and that of the fetus/unborn child, it should be resolved in favor of the mother."
It isn't that easy, Bradley, as I have pointed out. Hard cases make bad law. There should be an out for mother's health but it has been massively abused.
Adoption has also been massively screwed up by the social workers with fathers rights and mothers allowed to change their minds two years later. Annie had a friend in grade school who had been an open adoption. The kid was adopted by wealthy people who considered her another bit of furnishing for their 6,000 square foot home (Not in Edward's class but rich) and she was wild. We didn't like Annie associating with her although she was lonely and kids enjoy the toys rich kids have. It ended with the kid and a friend sending a death threat to Annie by IM. Cindy copied the message, took it to the principal (Private school so no messing around) and the kid was expelled.
Adoption is so screwed up here that it adds to abortion incidence. Parents looking for adoption go to China. Not an easy situation.
I might point out to the feminists that half the babies aborted are male so we do have a stake in the topic.
Mike, I'm soooooo with you on the adoption being screwed up. Open adoptions are just plain stupid for everyone involved. Changing your mind to get your baby back after the fact is an outrage.
It is indeed Vivian Louise.
I've always felt the best opposition to abortion is informed and responsible (which is to say non-starry-eyes and fundie-based) sex education. It's my understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that abortion rates have fallwen in recent years. That's all to the good. Still the practice shouldn't be outlawed nor the issue confused via the creation of "partial-birth abortion" -- a fundie horror story designed to frighten and intimidate. Unless you're a physician ALL medical procedures, when descriebd in "layman's terms," are horrific.
Are there Fundies ready to "name" them all?
I'll bet there are.
Coming to a limited release theater shortly will be a very great new film, Stephani Daley. Wirtten and directed by Hillary Braugher (whose great low-budget sci-fi fantasy The Sticky Fingers of Time was seen by far too few several years back) it centers on a "ripped-from-today's-headlines" type story about a high school girl charged with murdering the infant she gave birth to in a public bathroom at a ski resort where she'd gone with her classmates. Dubbed "The Ski Mom," this terrified and deeply sad youg owman (beautifully played by Amber Tamblyn) was raised in a "Good Christian Home" were sex was NEVER discussed. This was supplemented by a public high school where, tahmks to Fundie interference, "Abstinence Only" was the rule of the day. As a result she was quite unprepared to be seduced by a good-looking college-age creep who informed her -- as he was making his exit -- that he "didn't come inside her."
Well of course she did. Thinking her condition as God's Judgement for being "bad," the girl hides it, quite successfully.
The "dingo ate your baby" line was popularized more than anything by Seinfeld's Elaine using it. That's what made it so funny. Hats off to Vivian Louise for connecting the dots and making me smile.
An primary question when it comes to abortion is, "Is it okay to engage in sex if one does not wish children?" I think it is. I don't want children, but I'm not about to live like a monk. I use contraception, but if contraception should fail, then abortion is a backup. I don't think anyone would choose such an expensive and difficult procedure as a primary means of birth control.
Having said that, I agree with Bradley. To me, it's a continuum. The further along in a pregancy, the more uncomfortable I am with an abortion. I don't feel the same about a zygote as I do a six-month-old fetus. I therefore support the partial-birth abortion ban recently passed. However, I don't think abortion should be totally banned.
The heart of the film is a dialogue btween the girl and a court-appointed pychologist brought in to gauge her mental state. This woman (played btrethtakingly as usual by Tilda Swinton) happens to be pregnant. The year before she gave birth to a stillborn child. She's taken all manner of precautions in pursuit of a safe and healthy birtg. Hwoever her husband (Timothy Hutton) has withdrawn from her and may be having an affiar with another woman. Therefore in the coruse of her interviews this mature and resourceful adult discoevrs that she and this cursed teenager are really in the same boat.
Never have the fears, dangers and everything else about pregnancy been brought home to me more devestatingly.
Everyone should see this film -- especially men.
David,
I'll watch it for no other reason than than Tilda Swinton is in it. I have yet to see a film of hers that I didn't like. But your description of it certainly adds to the allure.
Here's a twist. I'm going to be the serious one for a change. Serious subject.
It's easy to get lost in the myriad arguments based upon moral and religious, as well as political, platforms. But making any decision, for me, means you have to drill down to most basic level possible. Physical evolution and social evolution follow wave patterns which can viewed best from long distance.
What I see now in the world is a new wave bringing about adaptations to increased populations, increased productivity, intertwined with dwindling reserves of conventional energy, food and water sources. We in the US are generally buffered from food and water scarcity (so far) that afflicts a good portion of the third world. We seem much more anxious over the price of gas and snacks at the AM/PM. But perceived scarcity is still the result.
I believe these macro factors slowly insinuate themselves into the social evolutionary waves. As life expectancy increases in modern cultures, there seems to be a resulting reduction in the value of high birthrates. Therefore one could presume the value of adding new humans to the culture is diminished in the face of scarcity. Special and precious to the parents, of course, but of less importance to the greater society. When the young and the old become burdens more than valued segments, then a culture will discover ways to reduce their impact.
Abortion is modern society's technological way of reducing birthrates, right alongside birth control. China legislated this during their hard times. But most societies just put social pressure to bear on prospective parents by sneering at those who chose to have 'too many' offspring. Witness Doc's rejoinder to those who ragged him for having 5 young 'uns. And allowing kids to run wild and uncontrolled is perhaps a secondary indication of the loss of value that children have on modern society. That is, why bother making sure they are turning into productive members of society? But that's getting into the details. I just try to look at the thing from long distance to see a pattern.
And that said, there are always pullbacks and corrections in any long term trend. Any detailed arguments will typically address the digression and regression to the overall trendline. You can see this in various cultures around the globe by noting their varying birthrates, and coming up with rationales for the differences.
On a simplistic level, then, abortion is most probably here to stay, at least in developed regions. As in the markets, if you don't see a wave, you're all set to feel it.
Uh-oh, I hear the chorus building...go back to attempted levity. And more brevity, too!!! Or just go back to work. Told you the housing market was swooning long ago. But I'll try my best.
The decision last week was about a certain kind of abortion. Sure it's incrementalism, but maybe it would be good if people had to think about what goes on in a PBA. Hence Kennedy's extended excerpt from the evidence.
Yes, the baby's little hands may fold and unfold and its feet kick even in an earlier stage D&C abortion--I mean "so-called" abortion--but if abortion's such a public good, so defensible, why must we avert our eyes, change the language around, not talk about it?
Other operations are ugly & bloody, but does a kidney put up a fuss when it's removed? How about bariatric procedures--do those intestines fight back as they're being rearranged?
Just askin.
When we did saline abortions in 1969, the babies would be delivered and left in emesis basins until they stopped moving and trying to breathe. The saline was supposed to kill them but often didn't. Sometimes it was an hour or more. Nobody liked it and the department finally hired some docs to do them so residents didn't have to. Now sensibilities have changed. The wife of a doctor I know had a hysterectomy about 15 years ago when she was pregnant with twins. Their other kids were friends with mine. I don't think the kids ever knew. I never felt the same about her after that. That was true "choice." I wonder if her other kids ever found out.
norcal you said that few would choose something that "expensive and dangerous" as birth control. That is just not so. I've seen young women who've had seven abortions by the age of 29. What would you call it ?
Then to complete the cycle of idiocy, the ACLU sued LA County Hospital in the 70s to stop them from offering tubal liagtion to post partum women. The women were not offered the procedure unless they had four kids. Most of them were never seen by a doctor until they were in labor. The husbands probably would have objected but it's the woman's body, isn't it ?
The result was the California law barring sterilization without a 30 day waiting period between consent and procedure. That was the end of the post-partum tubals. Yipee! Women's rights protected.
Sorry to be so cynical. Must be my age.
"When we did saline abortions in 1969, the babies would be delivered and left in emesis basins until they stopped moving and trying to breathe."
That's some amazing compartmentalization you guys had to do there...or is that just normal in medicine? Not being smart, really.
For awhile I wished I had become a nurse, after I had taken care of my first husband before he passed away. But I wondered does one lose some sensitivity by necessity over time? Because I've noticed an attitude in the profession of "just chill, we'll take care of it, see this all the time.." Except for those who have gotten away from or avoided abortion practice of course.
Dr. K,
I'm not saying that some women don't have multiple abortions. I'm just saying that I doubt someone would CHOOSE from the outset such an expensive means of birth control.
So she forgot her pills seven times ? The patient I have in mind was a 29-year-old college student at UC Santa Barbara who was hospitalized for another problem and was a MediCal beneficiary in spite of her wealthy family that was financing this prolonged adolescence.
I don't know if MediCal pays for them; I believe they do as California is far too enlightened to allow a federal prohibition to influence its decisions on medical care.
The new thought police are alive and well in Denmark. I thought the Danes had more sense but they apparently have been spooked by Islam and its fanatics.
"I've seen young women who've had seven abortions by the age of 29. What would you call it ?"
I'd call that psychosis. Why were these women getting pregnant? A "mistake" (fill in the appropriate reason) or a "forced" pregnancy due to rape or incest I can certainly understand, but SEVEN TIMES?!?!!!
Here is some more information on the western world's problem with Islam. Of course the lefties will say it is all Bush's fault. I think it is interesting that big majorities agree that we are trying to divide and defeat Islam (perceptive little buggers) and large majorities want us to stop supporting Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Which is it ?
Sorry but abortion is a boring topic.
Mike K.
Sorry but abortion is a boring topic.
Next time, I'll try to write on a topic people care about.
"Of course the lefties will say it is all Bush's fault."
Who are you talking about. The problems of the mid-east and the role of the U.S. in it stretch back for over half a century.
Hey David, you went to high school with Laura Nyro? Now WHY is it that when I read these lyrics I think of your household?---
Bill, I love you so, I always will
I look at you and see the passion eyes of May
Oh, but am I ever gonna see my wedding day
I was on your side Bill, when you were losin'
I'd never scheme or lie Bill, there's been no foolin'
But kisses and love won't carry me 'till you marry me Bill
I love you so, I always will
And in your voice I hear a choir of carousels
Oh, but am I ever gonna hear my wedding bells
I was the one who came runnin' when you were lonely
I haven't lived one day not lovin' you only
But kisses and love won't carry me til you marry me Bill
I love you so, I always will
And though devotion rules my heart I take no vows
But Bill you're never gonna take those wedding vows
Oh, come on Bill
Oh, come on Bill
Come on and marry me Bill
I got the wedding bell blues
Please marry me Bill
I got the wedding bell blues
Marry me Bill
David, we agree. The middle east has been a problem since oil was found there and the world entered the petroleum age.
The first real crisis was in 1979 when the Shah was thrown out in Iran. FDR's deal with Ibn Saud was the beginning of our involvement and the elite of this country, not just the Bushes, have been far too close to the Saudis ever since. Joe Wilson, for example was working for them when he wrote his famous op-ed. I suggested last week that Bradley research who is married to whom on the Democrat side in DC. It would also be enlightening to list all the shell compnaies owned by the Saudis and who has been on retainer for them the past few decades. The State Department, for instance, has a history of retiring to Saudi sinecures. The DoD tends to retire to defense industries. I think the former is more dangerous.
Bradley, it is boring because there is no debate. Everyone has an opinion, like a belly button. I straddle the line as pro-choice and unhappy at the number of abortions. If I was a politician saying that, even I wouldn't trust my word.
I'm pro choice, though only to the point the fetus is viable apart from the mother. That said, I think Roe v Wade was ill decided on "privacy" grounds. It's a case where I prefer the result of the ruling, but think the ruling is judicial overreach.
Very funny Gary. What's fascinating about Laura Nyro was she was so on the money as a Communist Martyrs High student (aka The High School of Music and Art) that we all thought of her as being "over the top." She kept very much to herself as a result.
I knew lotsa wonderful Jewish girls that went to Music and Art, and lotsa Communists, too--remarkably, the two Venn circles overlap almost completely! Nyro's great, but for sheer heart-on-your-sleeve drama and poignancy I'd have to go with "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" by Laura's (richer!) contemporary, Carole King.
Things would really get interesting if Roe v Wade were overturned. Congress might legislate something, although the President wouldn't necessarily sign it. The states would be sure to get involved. Imagine all the states setting their own abortion policy. The liberal states would, of course, allow abortion, the conservative states would severely restrict it, and who knows how the moderate states would deal with it. I can envision women trekking to other states for the procedure.
You'd have some debate then, Dr. K!
Carole King was all heart, whereas Laura Nyro was all angst.
Deep inside her was a black lesbian screaming to get out.
norcal,
I doubt Roe v. Wade will be overturned in time for the 2008 elections. That would make it a doozy! Most likely, the new Supreme Court majority will move incrementally toward allowing tighter restrictions on abortions.
But if a Democrat (or Rudy) wins the White House in 2008, and Congress remains Democratic, expect federal legislation to increase abortion rights, no matter what the Supreme Court says.
Bradley, of course you chose wisely with your timely subject matter. Bravely so.
I think the subject is so far from deserving a dismissive shrug. To the contrary a society's collective view (i.e. laws) regarding the worth of human life is all telling and perhaps evidences a silent slipping down from the absolutes. Believing all humans are born with an innate knowledge of right and wrong, it would seem that under the layers of detritus, argument and rational, it is indeed a moral issue, for it must be. It demands nothing less as it is the determination of what human life is worth.
If we’re going to be honest about it, especially if one sees abortion as form of birth control or a getting-out-of-a-jam procedure it should be looked at head on, eyes wide open. Anything less seems glib and demeans the very life in question.
Certainly, somewhere in us all the questions must be answered:
“Yes, the baby's little hands may fold and unfold and its feet kick even in an earlier stage D&C abortion--I mean "so-called" abortion--but if abortion's such a public good, so defensible, why must we avert our eyes, change the language around, not talk about it?
Other operations are ugly & bloody, but does a kidney put up a fuss when it's removed? How about bariatric procedures--do those intestines fight back as they're being rearranged?”
Where do we individually, and collectively, draw the line to protect those who have absolutely no ability to protect themselves? Who wants to protect the intrinsic right to live?
Vivian Louise,
I was in the other group in high school. I didn’t have your courage – to face the truth, to bear the weight, to choose life. I paid $125 (no anesthesia, too expensive) and watched a container fill up as life was being sucked out of me. I tried to focus on the Planned Parenthood nurse as she repeatedly reassured me –as if she knew best - “Its alright, we’re here for you. And don’t worry, Dana, it’s really nothing more than matter and tissue”. Even as it was being performed, even as I silently let the tears fall through the pain, I knew that she was wrong. So very, very wrong. And I still know it thirty years later.
Wow David. Your posts and dialogue with Mike K here re abortion has me, just as yesterday, rethinking my opinions of you again. And not in a bad way.
Re Laura Nyro, I think it'd be accurate to call her one of the first great 'underappreciateds/underrecognizeds' of rock music (if I may be so bold as to invent two new words). But for me, her ultimate claim to immortality was the choice she made when hiring her personal manager: a young upstart by the name of David Geffen...
Everyone, even David and Mike K, should be bipartisan-minded enough to enjoy this:
David Letterman's Top Ten George W. Bush Moments.
This has been a very honest and fascinating discussion. My viewpoints have changed over time. In college, I "learned" in a philosophy class many pro-choice arguments including: what if someone enters your house illegally? What if you put up bars and the thief still enters in?
Talk about indoctrination!
Every time you say anything in favor of not having abortions, people respond, "You hate incest/rape victims!" I wish people would stop using that argument because if it's all about crime victims, then abortion should be legal only for crime victims. But of course, that's not what it's all about.
And why should we care? If it's not a baby or even something similar enough to a baby, it's disposable, right? (I don't feel that way, btw, just making the argument.)
Bottom line is the difference between a "baby" and a fetus is the mother's intention. The press treats the whole fetus/baby question in a very confusing manner. What's an "unborn baby?" Is there such a thing in an abortion world?
The other thing that bugs me is when people say, "a baby would ruin my life!" Well, only one person can ruin your life and that's you. A baby can certainly change your life, but your life will be what you make of it. I can no more blame my life on my baby than on my parents or friends.
I'm also very interested in the law in this case. The little I know of it is that Roe was decided based on a very weak case, and that the constitution does not support this "right to choose." But that state legislatures can and should pass abortion laws.
I've read that we have more liberal abortion laws than in Europe, but I don't know more than that.
This comment is getting long, and all the things I wanted to add have drifted away. I think this post is very brave, Bradley.
Dana,
As always, you write from the heart. Thank you for telling that sad, moving story.
Indeed, I am impressed by what has been written in this thread. Instead of sticks and stones, our Festering Swamp readers have provided insight and compassion. On all sides, people have shown respect for each other, while eloquently stating their views. There's been no cheap shots, no name-calling, no demonizing. Our little corner of teh Internets has belied the no-holds-barred ferocity of its name.
Where did I go wrong?
Dana, your story was very moving and you have my complete sympathy. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. Women who've gone through this are a big part of this story.
Thanks for posting your story, Dana. That adds a needed human element to the debate over abortion.
the constitution does not support this "right to choose." But that state legislatures can and should pass abortion laws.
Exactly. Abortion is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution - it is clearly an issue to be decided by the states. Were Roe v. Wade to be overturned, abortion would become a state matter, just as it had been before the infamous 1973 ruling.
As norcal suggests, it would create quite a political firestorm at the state level. In the end, though, an overturning of Roe v. Wade would have a tremendously positive effect: it would finally bring the divisive cultural war over abortion to a close. How so? The abortion issue would subsequently be decided democratically in each state, and the citizens of those states would have to accept the will of their respective voting electorates.
and the citizens of those states would have to accept the will of their respective voting electorates.
Or not accept it and tirelessly campaign again to put it up for another vote, or something...I guess.
Gary, I love that song "Bill--I love you so--" You should hear me sing it in the shower!
Horrendous, torrential, tornado-warning weather again tonight. It was nighttime all day long today the sky was so dark. Maybe North Texas is pulling itself out of the drought.
The weather is getting bad here too - lots of thunder and lightning and projected heavy rainfall. There were some tornado warnings out in Val Verde County last night, but nothing this evening so far.
Dana, that was so moving and beautiful that I've ben sitting here nonplussed for more than an hour.
What can one say?
In some way--I don't know why--it feels better that Nancy is on the site too, another woman to provide words of consolation to Dana. Not that we guys are incapable of being affected. Far from it.
This comment was posted at Patterico re PAB in response to his posting of a detailed description of what happens during the procedure.
"They (feminists) hold in high regard the woman’s right to choose yet I am a woman who never knew the details of this procedure (partial birth abortion) until the ban in 2003 at the age of 43. I cannot tell you just how horrified I was to learn that this is what I had supported all in the name of women’s rights.
How am I empowered if they are able to hide under the umbrella of ‘right to privacy’ all of the nasty business required to keep the abortion industry thriving?
It wasn’t religion that made me pro-life it was the deceptive, manipulative manner in which the feminist movement has infantized my gender by keeping dirty little secrets from ever seeing the light of day."
******************
You Texas two under volatile and dramatic skies, be safe.
p.s.
As a semi-reclusive lover of privacy, to give voice to this is intended to strongly evidence the unwavering stand I will take on this matter, regardless of who snickers and snarks. I am no longer young, naive, uninformed and foolish to believe feminist proselytizing.
We all carry sorrow with us. Its an inevitable part of this life. But when sorrow transforms over the years into strength, it becomes a strange and necessary gift, like wisdom.
Dana,
No one here would be so unwise as to snark at you. (I pity the fool!) It is one thing to recite political and religious beliefs from rote; quite another to speak from one's life experience, as you have.
Well spoken.
Ah, we're safe enough, at least I am, with Team Coverage of the weather. I love Team Coverage!
I fell in love with Team Coverage when I lived in NYC. Yes, it's raining here too in Central Park, Roseanne.
Thanks, Joe, let's see what's happening by City Hall.
Rain here, too, Roseanne.
Anyway, my husband's in hog heaven. The sky was a mighty powerful image this evening. One of the the local news reporters called in from my town to report that electricity is out here. Not in my house, though some people have lost their roof.
The lakes will be very close to if not normal by now. They may even call off water conservation this summer, which would be nice.
Kenneth in Alabama, if you're out there, we have four tomatoes (so far), small as grapes, getting bigger by the day. And the biggest (silliest) wooden and net contraption, complete with heat-seeking missiles and movement-detection alarms built right in to protect what farmers no longer deliver.
They're in a planter and have already survived being tipped over by one strong wind storm, and if my basil survives whatever's leaving little holes in it, we'll feast on goat cheese, basisl, homegrown tomato pizza yet!
Move the heat seeking missiles next to the basil plant. That might at least scare the hell out of the hole makers. If they're still there after tonight's turbulence.
Great thread today, Bradley. Taking suggestions like that was a novel idea that calls out for repeating sometime.
I need to say that I am pro-choice because I really did see the illegal abortions and the harm they caused. One that will stay with me as long as I have memory was a young girl whose boyfriend tried to abort her pregnancy by squirting green soap into her uterus. This was actually as common as the famous coat hanger. What green soap does is cause massive hemolysis. Blood cells rupture and the woman has massive hemoglobin spill into the urine. That usually shuts down the kidneys. The worst of it was that the boy friend was allegedly a medical student.
We used to admit a "septic abortion" about two or three times a night at County. That probably was the reason for the legalization of abortion in California long before Roe vs Wade. I was a medical student when I saw the illegal abortions. By the time I was a resident, three years later, it was available with little fuss at County.
I knew girls in college who had illegal abortions but they were done by physicians, in one case by the president of the state medical board. They could afford it and knew somebody.
On the other hand, I had a cousin who had been a babysitter for me when I was a toddler. She married late and had two boys. She died a couple of years ago with Alzheimers. My mother told me a story about her a few years before she died. This woman was very beautiful and graduated from high school at 16. She didn't go to college as no women did in the family in those years (1933).
She went to work at the same office my mother worked before her marriage and quickly became the general manager of the business, a warehouse on North Water Street in Chicago. She was still only 19. Then she had an affair with the owner of the business and became pregnant. She moved to Seattle for 6 months and gave the baby up for adoption. I don't believe she ever heard anything from that child again. Somewhere there is a person who is 66 years old who was given life because this young woman was unwilling to have an abortion although I'm sure the wealthy man could have paid for one. She didn't marry for another ten years and then lived happily with her husband, a great guy.
I think I may be the last one alive in the family who knows the story. Adoption now is hardly a viable alternative since the social workers have screwed it up.
Nancy,
and if my basil survives whatever's leaving little holes in it, we'll feast on goat cheese, basil, homegrown tomato pizza yet!
That is MY idea of hog heaven. And real tomatoes, not the cardboard kind found in the store. Here is where I get pizza like that . Not as good as totally home-made, though. Do you get goat cheese from Goatboy?
May the basil and tomatoes remain unscathed by the weather -- and of course their guardians.
Nancy, keep it up, you're inspiring me! My new kitchen will be done in a few weeks (fingers crossed)and I really, really believe I will cook - with real ingredients... and no microwave necessary! The crew here laughs at my absurdities and dreams, too much history to make them believers, but homemade goatcheese pizza would show those yahoos who really wears the chef hat in this joint!
Mean Texas skies, Team Coverage while my doors are wide open to a warm breeze and a wafting fragrance of the orange trees in the grove. Crazy world, huh?
Here is where I get pizza like that.
Thanks Bradley. You finally got your revenge for King of the Road. Now I won't be satisfied until I can get to Red Brick Pizza in Cerritos tomorrow night.
SHOCKING NEWS!!! May cause either frightful stomachache or fits of glee depending on your political POV and level of fondness for daytime TV.
First of all, I think that a wholesale banning of abortion ultimately is analogous to the efforts of those do-gooders----almost all of them liberal, most of them on the judiciary----who some time ago mandated that public schools be integrated through massive, cross-town busing programs. Sorry, it didn't work.
Second, I think some people have no business bringing children into the world. Few things are as foolish as when idealists believe that dysfunctional women (or certainly dysfunctional teenage girls) should be encouraged to hold onto their kids. NO, they should be encouraged to give their kids up for adoption. Even more so since there is a pent-up demand for adoptable infants.
Which leads me to the opinion that good old-fashioned financial incentives, crass though they may sound, are no worse a response to lowering abortion rates than abortions themselves. Waving some dollar bills in front of women who are seriously considering an abortion, and promising them cash on the condition that they go forward with a pregnancy and then give their baby up for adoption, would be better than flushing nascent life down the drain.
Finally, nothing is more morally bankrupt (and actually inhumane) than when people in society bleed their hearts over the treatment of animals----eg, wanting a ban on the raising of ducks for pate, or disallowing owners of horses from selling their animals to rendering plants----yet, in turn, are quite indignant about the loss of "women's rights" when it comes to restrictions on abortion.
Wow, Mark, that's almost a leftist, or at least centrist, perspective.
I posted this on Pererro a while back, but here's my position on abortion:
In ideal circumstances, women should be able to give up the contents of their womb to the state any time they so choose. If said contents are a viable human at that time, by all means, try to preserve it. If not -- abortion.
Usual exceptions for rape, woman's health, etc. Partial-birth sounds heinous, but I'm not comfortable taking it permanently off the table as an emergency procedure.
As for movies...apparently Tony Kaye's upcoming "Lake of Fire" will shake you up no matter what your position.
Dana, thank you for sharing your story. It takes so much courage to share that. Thank you!
I spent my senior year in HS pregnant, oh joy! After a few months everyone knew. I did get a lot of crap from the buttheads, even a few guys who told me I should abort. On the other hand, I got a LOT of quiet support from unexpected places. At least 5 guys I can remember came to me to tell me that they thought what I was doing was good and the right thing, that they regretted their own choices and the abortions their girlfriends had. There were even more girls who came to me, often crying, telling me they wish they could have done what I was doing, that they deeply regretted their own abortions. The peer pressure to have an abortion, at least from my experience, is more perceived than fact.
Mike K., Being a birth mother myself I can tell you that adoption isn't always screwed up. Mine was rather amazing, as were the other girls who placed through Bethany. There are a number of agencies that don't just deal with social workers or the state. My daughter was in foster care for four months after birth and I got to visit her as often as I could handle. When she was adopted, her parents would send the occasional note to tell me how she was doing. Later I got an essay she wrote in 5th grade about how grateful she was for her life because I chose life. She's married now, and a mother. We've met and have occasional times to see each other. It's taken 22 years to see the 'end result' and to make a wonderful case for life. As painful as it was to let her go, I regret nothing.
Abortion as birth control: Again, this is from my high school years, but, I know of several girls who got abortions so they could fit into their homecoming/prom dresses. No lie. They weren't their first.
Wow. I really appreciate everyone's perspective on this. If anyone was pregnant in my high school class, I didn't know about it. It looks like I probably just didn't know about a bunch of pregnancies.
And thank you, Mike K, for posting comments about your experiences. Your comments about abortion as birth control and illegal abortions have broadened my perspective.
"and if my basil survives whatever's leaving little holes in it, we'll feast on goat cheese, basil, homegrown tomato pizza yet!"
Oh how I love the thought of that. Last year I grew heirloom tomatoes and 3 kinds of basil and can't wait for tomato season this year. I'm so making that pizza! All I really need is a water/weather proof salt shaker to hang on my tomato supports, a chair next to the tomato bed and a napkin. Sun warmed tomatoes fresh from the vine wrapped in just picked warm basil, lightly salted........oh my! I'm having tomato-gasms just thinking about it.
You sure those weren't cherry tomatoes?
Thanks for that, Big V. My next salad will conjure up veery interesting images as I bite into that cool red slice of fresh tomato.
Oh, and every time you drop the i from Louise, I wince a little. You ain't nuttin' like a louse. And just between you and me, my ex-wife and bestest friend is a Vivian. So you already have instant bonus points.
Salt. I read something a while back about there being salt aficionados now. Shops online that carry salt from exotic climes and such. Any of you festers doing the salt conniesewer deal?
And my mom and sister are middle named Louise.
So was my mom's middle name. She eventually adopted it as her first name.
Mom never let on about the tomato-gasms. She did grow tomatoes like crazy. Mom?
"very, very wrong. And I still know it thirty years later."
Dana, you're not the only one here carrying this around. But we didn't know did we. My mother told me, when I was about 10, that it was "psysiologically indistinguishable from a fish embryo" or some such..turns out her boyfriend had taken her to Mexico for an abortion about that time.
When my best friend in high school told me she was against abortion, I was shocked. I didn't know there was anything to be against. She's in NYC and probably pro-abort now.
It's been hard to talk about because so many of us are implicated in so many ways. But I think I should be able to think and change my mind about it, even if I did take advantage of Roe 30+ years ago myself.
Clearly, "new" evidence has come to light about it, things that the doctors and nurses knew all along and kept (tactfully) to themselves, and it's reasonable for people to change their position.
And, regarding the woman with the 7 abortions. A lot of us women's sex lives got very, very sloppy around that time. Even with freely available birth control, conceptions went UP, and abortions went way up over where they were previously in states where previously legalized like NY. In spite of the protection & freedom, we still had that natural drive to conceive that all the dogma in the world couldn't quash. It just took a little booze, dope and a lot of foolish song lyrics to bring it to the surface.
"A lot of us women's sex lives got very, very sloppy around that time."
SEVEN ABORTIONS is a tad beypnd "sloppy," no?
As for that "natural drive to concieve"? What about the natural drive to not be operated on?
"psysiologically indistinguishable from a fish embryo" or some such..
Yesterday when this subject was broached a long buried phrase from biology 101 came roaring up to consciousness...ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. I did the google and there it was. Banged up and cruelly discredited now, the concept of a developing embryo mirroring the evolutionary development of a species seemed so obvious back then in the third row of the lecture hall. Those little drawings of embryonic sharks on through to human embryos showing incredible parallel likenesses? Evidently mere quirks of nature after much further study. But I still marveled at the similarities when I saw them again.
"As for that "natural drive to concieve"? What about the natural drive to not be operated on?"
That's what intoxicants are for. And later, what anesthesia is for. After a while, you're just numb all over.
Wow! I leave for a little while to disbud the goats, make 900 bars of soap and the first spring feta cheese and you guys are 65 comments into an amazing thread!
First, Dana, Vivian Louise and cassandra, you are all amazing women and I admire the way you all have dealt with the choices you've made and to be so public on a very private matter.
That said, just because something is "wrong" doesn't mean it should be illegal. I'm often frustrated by the abortion debate because I feel the bell will never be unrung on this one ...nor should it. I think it's insertion into politics is a waste of time.
I believe life begins at conception. When I was faced with the prospect of aborting my possible Down's syndrome son I watched his little hand wave at me from the level II ultrasound and I knew that I would have him no matter what. BUT...I was happily married at the time, financially secure and 33 years old. (He turned out to be fine!) Had I become pregnant in high school or college, I can't say I would not have opted for abortion, in fact, I'm pretty sure I would have made the same choice as Dana.
Thanks for the plug Bradley....I can't sell cheese as I don't have a dairy license..now there's a law I'd like to overturn...but if any of you are ever close enough to pick some up I can give it away! I'm still working on my chevre..but the feta is pretty good!
Wow, Mark, that's almost a leftist, or at least centrist, perspective.
I don't know about "centrist," but my comments certainly don't align with the sentiments of most liberals. Far too many of them, in fact, get all teary-eyed over animal rights while shrugging their shoulders over (or snickering about) the idea of fetus rights, if you will.
And to make matters more ridiculous, look at all the liberals who believe society should give wide latitude to any person, no matter how dysfunctional and foolish she is, who wants to have children up the wazoo but has no business raising children. Or those women who folks on the left love to bleed their hearts over because it means society must have more welfare programs!!, must have more subsidized daycare programs!!, must have more low-income housing programs, must have more touchy-feely gang-prevention programs!!!
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