Spot on as usual Chris.
When I was a kid I scrimped and saved and finally procured a used Auto Ordnance garden variety 45 that an IPSC shooter had traded in. I paid $400 bucks for it which I thought was a princely sum.
It looked like a piece of junk and earned sneers of contempt from the pistol elites at the rod and gun club - until I started shooting it. It shot circles around the Gold Cups and pretty much everything else there. Everyone thought I was a crack shot, but that was not the case. Everyone shot it and were amazed with its accuracy. I could cut a regular playing card in half at 25 yards with it fairly consistently; and snipers like you guys would do even better. Sadly, after thousands of rounds the old girl packed it in. I have since bought an HK USP 45 and it is fine, but it won't touch the accuracy that old beater had.
Here is the another good tip on 45's and all guns for that matter: if you can, shoot the gun first. Most gunshops with a range will let you shoot used guns before you buy- take advantage of that!
It may be that you can buy a tack driver and a pile of practice ammo for the price of a flashier custom gun. The second good tip is that once you find a jewel like that - don't sell it until you have a better shooter already in your possession.
As far as buying a gun because Bruce Willis or Dirty Harry use it...that is Hollywood, and those guys are seldom right about anything.
PS - It's good to see you posting again.
Not to get into a holy war, but I have on my TiVo an interview with Jeff Cooper. The segment was mostly about the scout rifle, but 1911's came up. The good Colonel was asked, "why the .45ACP?"
His answer? "It's the largest caliber that will fit the 1911 well." Good enough for me.
I wouldn't mind a 10mm, though.
Chriss,
OK, I'm ging to be a bit of a purist here. A "commander" has a 4 1/4" barrel and has a bushing. The "pro" and "chanmpion" offered by Kimber and Springfield are not commanders, as they have 4" (not 4 1/4") barrels, and are bushingless designs. I point ths out as folks will engage in a holy war over the metrits of bushings vs. bushingless designs.
Similary, the "officer" has a 3 1/2" barrel, and has a bushing, although this is a thinned bushing and the officer barrel has a bit of taper on it to add mass at the muzzle. The Kimber Ultra, and Springfield Micro are completely different designs as they have 3" barrels, guild rods, reverse plugs and are bushingless.
You may want to add a bit on the officer/comander hybrids such as the Colt CCO (commader slide/officer frame) and the Kimber Compact (Pro slide/officer frame)
Is it worth mentioning things such as the abomination of the full lenght guide rod? Or the other abomination, the lawyer-lock found on the Taurus and Springfield.
Also, I think a little bit on the internal vs. external extractor is warranted. I know folks who refuse to buy either a sig or S&W simply due to the poor reputation of the EE. Dan Wesson and Kimber both stopped making guns with an EE due to customer "disatisfaction".
My next 1911 is going to be a Dan Wesson CBOB in 10mm though
Ah, ever since you showed me that DW in 10mm, it's all I can think about. Yeah, I'm a tupperware shooter (Glock 29) but not a Glock Fanboy. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my pistol, but that's a love born out of part necessity.
However, with the impending HillBama election to the White House, I'm going to have to somehow manage to buy an EBR instead.
And ammo... Lots of ammo.
I bought a basic John Moses Browning Masterpiece a couple of years ago - Springfield GI - primarily because I had long wanted one like I carried on topside watch in the Navy many years ago.
I have since added a Colt Sistema Argentino Modelo 1927 and a 9mm S&W Model 5946, (yeah, I know - it ain't a real pistol 'cause it ain't .45 caliber).
I'm sure I will add more, and will refer to your writeup often. Thanks.
thanks for the info, ive been looking for something good like this... but after all that info, i am still left with... what do i get?
I have to disagree about the Rock Island 1911s. I own 2 and they are a whole lot better than I would have expected. One of them is approaching 3000 rounds now and is still box stock.
Especially if you are not sure about the 1911, it is a good place to start.
Lovely article but counter-strike doesn't have guilds. They used to be called clans but now they're simply known as 'teams'.
I have to agree with Mr. Nelson:
"Discount 1911s: These are usually made in the Phillipines. Examples include Rock Island, "
I had the opportunity to run a RI compact(bushingless officers model) through a few hundred rounds straight from the box. The rock islands are well worth the money.
As has been mentioned above "Compact" usually refers to a "CCO" size gun; 4" or 4.25" upper on Ossifer's frame.
Disagree with the above commenters on the Filipino slag guns, BTW. Out of the hunnerds I've seen over the last decade plus, the number of problems was disproportionately high vis a vis the other manufacturers. I'd rather have a late '70s Colt or an early Series II Kimber than an RIA, and that's damning by faint praise, let me tell you.
This entry makes me want to buy a third Glock! I'm off to the store.
Joe, I know, it's satire. Everyone knows the CS geniuses are all HK masturbators.
I'd kinda rushed this one out the door. I've made some corrections, fixed some formating, and added a couple clarifications.
Mark, there are Champion and Pro configurations with bushings as well; though yes, all of them are 4" barrels.
Thanks for the info, Chris...I like the Taurus, though I would prefer a 4" barrel. I just don't have $800-$1000 to spend on a carry pistol. Hell, maybe I will look at revolvers on that, the sole objections to a revolver are it is bulkier, and so are the reloads.
Joseph, I prefer a commander configuration 1911 myself.
I also have an RIA. The only problem I've had with it is hammer bite and that's common with many GI pistols.
My first pistol was a Colt series 80 Combat Commander. I liked it, never had a problem with it. But times got hard and had to sell it along with most of my other decent pistols. I believe the Taurus is a 5" barrel...which might be a little long for me for carry. As they say, if it isn't (reasonably) comfortable for carry, you're not going to carry it.
Hey Chris, I'm actually responding to "Let's play a little game..." that I landed on from a search on "sharing ammo", it was very informative and extremely helpful. I am looking to buy my first little something/s for protection/survival. I don't want to get all political on your site, but I think you'll want to check into meetup.com's Ron Paul supporters group for Phoenix -if you haven't already. or RonPaul2008.com. I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is your guy even if you're not into politics. He's about taking our country back and protecting our constitutional rights 100%.
I just left Phoenix 1 month ago after 6 years! or I'd come and have a whisky with you guys in a heartbeat and maybe get some more pointers, but Thanks for my first full lesson. -Much Appreciated!!!
My personal opinion, while the RIAs aren't near as nice as a para or other 'high' end 1911, they're still less troublesome then the Taurus models. 2000+ through my RIA, not a single issue with the gun itself.
I do certainly agree on the bag magazine comment. The magazine I got with my RIA was a piece of crap. Feed lips cracked on me after less then 200 rounds. Threw them away, bought some Mcormicks, and haven't had a problem since.
I think the ramped fully supported chamber was over hyped a bit. Some builders got their geometries and finishes wrong on them and they didn't feed any better or fed worse than the old style. If I was going for high pressure rounds I'd definetely want one......Some gun store Ninja said the frame cut for the ramped barrel would weaken the frame but I don't see that.
Thank you chris! this one is a long time coming, and you are dead on the money with it!
Good write up Chris (as always!).
Although every time I get motivated to finally buy a 1911, I always seem to find a good deal on the ultimate JMB (PBUH) pistol, the Browning HI Power and buy another one of those instead.
So, does that make me a heretic, or, as I prefer to believe, simply a member of another Order bringing glory and praise to Saint John of the Browning?
Randy, I love the BHP as you know; I even own one. Unfotunately, it isn't available in any of my three chosen chamberings, 10mm, .45acp, or .357 SIG.
My 2cents on which one to buy. We will do like the Jesuits and proceed from the known to the unknown.
The best balance in a 1911 is usually considered the Commander (or semi commander length for the nitpicky) sized pistol. It does everything well. Carries, shoots, balances, etc. For fun get whatever you can afford. For a carry gun, get serious. Colt, S&W, Springfield, Taurus, Dan Wesson, etc. as Chris pointed out.
If you are really serious you will get a custom gun. Those tend to work. But you will pay more than your first few cars for one. The 10mm we presented to Chris was a bargain but still over what most are willing to drop on a new gun by about two grand. Still, if it is a reputable firm it will be a friend for life. You just can't go far wrong with a bespoke firearm. But then again, you get what you pay for.
I think Kimber's are overrated and priced, and have a cult like following. They may be good, but they may not. They use cheap parts in an expensive handgun. When you find one that runs it tuns forever, but for a first timer the gun may put you off 1911's forever and you will feel foolish having dropped so much money when better alternatives were available, for less.
That said, one of my frequent carry guns is a Kimber and my bedside gun is a Kimber (which took a lot of effort to get to run right). So, they run like a scalded cat if you get lucky or get it fixed properly. Again, a minefield for a new gun buyer.
If I were to pick on for a first timer to buy I would say Springfield. Excellent costumer service, reliable guns, lots of options, reasonable price. I snap up used Colts, and they almost all work like champs, and a used series 70 is an underrated bargain of the year. But that is when you get the one out of 10k used colts that suck and it puts you off. There is no customer service for one of those guns, and who knows what was done to it.
Chris - I'm in the boat of "cheap is important." Would you suggest going more with a new Taurus, or a used Springfield/S&W? From what I've seen they end up in the same relative price bracket.
Sorry, still very new to the pistol scene, other than shooting with friends, so if I'm asking a dumb question I apologize in advance.
Nothing to apologize for. So long as you have someone who can evaluate the used gun for you, I'd say go for a used higher end gun.
Jeff The Baptist said: "I also have an RIA. The only problem I've had with it is hammer bite and that's common with many GI pistols."
I'm not surprised. Based on my experiences you have about a 60% chance of getting one that works just fine.
It's the other four in ten that cause the unsatisfied customers that explain why I didn't carry them in the shop.
Chris,
One reason I enjoy reading your blog so much, esp. where firearms are concerned, is your ability to differentiate between opinions and facts...a lot of writers have a hard time doing this.
Nice piece, Chris. I literally got nothing of any major importance that I can add to it.
*hat tip*
Nice one. Incidentally, for the guy who has reported no breakages on his EIA after 3,000 rounds, I should point out that 5,000 rounds is the "preferred" level of wear on a 1911 before you can pronounce it "fault-free".
I think (and Chris agrees) that the best value you can get is the Springer. Mine has been grievously used -- close to 30,000 rounds -- and the only thing I had to replace (through breakage) was the link pin, which sheared after about 27,000 rounds. I replaced my recoil spring at 20,000 rounds, mainly out of guilt, but I still carry it in the bag as a spare.
Chris, a quick question: will using a light recoil spring (14lb) result in a beaten-up gun if shooting .45 +P ammo? Someone asked me that the other day, and I said I thought it would. Conversely, then, what's the optimal spring weight for .45 +Ps in a standard 1911?
Kim,
Generally speaking, I prefer an 18lb spring minimum; even for regular pressure loads. I believe that you should use the heaviest spring that your weapon will reliably cycle with.
I you're going to shoot +p or +p+, I recommend a 22lb or 24lb spring.
Bought my first 1911 in 1980.Colt Satin nickel full size series 70 .Couldn't wait to try that baby, drove way up
a dirt track into a clearcut with snow on the ground. Loaded up a mag, walked about 25 feet and set a pop can in the snow. Walked back, turned around and took a snap shot at it.(no sights) The can flipped over.I thought I grazed it. Took a look and there was a hole dead center. I was in love. Wish it still had that gun, but I needed a well more!
Kimbers, well, the two I have owned shot accurately, one worked ok, the other(high end model) was the worst handgun I have evr had. The term jam-o-matic was no exaggeration. A real frustration, especally for an $800 pistol. Next 1911 I get will be an old series 70 Colt.
I'm another of the "lucky" ones. I bought my first pistol, a brand stinky new Commander, at the tender age of 21 in 1976. Wasn't my first handgun, but it was the first one I could go to a gun shop and buy. Loved that beast, carried it for years, hard times forced sale. Things got better, started buying pistols again, couldn't afford any of the 1911s. Fell in love with the Witness, cause it's a damn fine pistol that doesn't cost a lot. Still missed my Commander, but still couldn't afford a Champion or any such stuff. Saw the SAM Commodore in my Centerfire catalog, thought what the hell, and bought one just to see. Figured I could MAKE it work. Didn't have to worry, all it took was a couple of strokes with a Dremel to make it feed h.p., IT WORKS! I didn't pay squat, and it WORKS! Am I lucky? Maybe. Are there more expensive? Oh yeah. Do I plan to buy a Champion, or(Oooooh, shivers in ecstatic anticipation) a Nighthawk eventually? Yeah. Do I have a 1911 that goes bang accurately and reliably? Hell YEAH! I'm pleased. Maybe I'm lucky. Or maybe it just isn't a bad gun. It's not expensive, and mine works pretty good.
decent article for what used to be a decent firearm...
sadly this is no longer the case , esp. with anything other than colt and even their stuff needs to be gone over with a critical eye...
9 of the last 13 1911's to come thru the door were junk , none were cheap knockoffs from 7th world countries either...
ranging in price from $600.00 to $1500.00 retail you would hope they would all work flawlessly , no such luck...
it was so bad that words cannot convey the disgust we felt at receiving such garbage...
it cured us of ever ordering a 1911 type pistol from anyone ever again...
i have always had a personal 1911 for the last 35+ years , i built them from scratch/surplus parts , i bought everything from well used 1911a1's to new colts and springfields ...
over 80 1911's in all over 35 + years...
i will never go back after the horrible garbage i have been seeing palmed off on a public that cannot tell the difference between good and bad workmanship...
what do i have now ?
after much testing and trials i settled on an H&K P2000 40S&W...
it is a close to ideal as i could hope for in a modern design 'set and forget' pistol...
i miss the good old days when you could get a gun NIB and not have to send it back 2,3,4 times for warranty work ...
this last straw in 1911's was beyond the concept of stupid , it was $1600.00 lwt 4" factory custom that arrived with a 3.5" barrel installed ...
the distributor said they found 3 like this in their last shipment ...
enough of this , if you get one that works you're luckier than i was...
I have a Rock Island 1911. Outstanding gun. I have studied the internet on the subject of 1911's and have discovered that custom made or pricey 1911's are a waste of money and I agree. Who wants to take a $2ooo or more gun out and shoot with it? I wouldn't trade my Rock Island for any of the others. I can hit anything with mine that they can hit with theirs. Not only that but the best part is. When I get a scratch on mine. I don't cry like a baby over it. These guns were meant to be used. Oh, I tried to get a Springfield Armory 1911 but they seem to only have one guy who works there building guns. He must just make about five a year because it's easier to live to be a thousand years old than it is to get a Springfield 1911. I called the Springfield Armory company. They said in order to get one "New" I would probably have to order one and wait 90 days. It's like the old saying goes. "People who buy expensive guns. Show them to thier friends. People who buy inexpensive guns. Show them to thier enemies".
Great primer, the 1911 is as much a fashion as anything else and sure people want it but I agree with what you said in other posts that there are better options at 2008
Great article.
I will add though, that 5" bull barrels are not allowed in IDPA or Single Stack races.
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