Newshoggers Comments
Yes there are paper ballots, but they are counted by computerized equipment. The process used to check the systems is a bit of as lark. You are supposed to mark the ballots a certain way & then run them through the machine and it spits out the results it told you to give it. I often wonder what would happen if the ballots were not marked as instructed. Maybe this year I'll find out.
If the count isn't far off there's no incentive to do a recount.
Libby, The problem is that there are real black-box, paperless voting issues that have to addressed. But complaining about voting systems that do have a paper trail - when there is no evidence of fraud or hacking - just muddies the waters and allows the other side to portray ALL concerns about e-voting as mere hysteria.
The conspiracy theories are rooted, let's face it, in the surprise result, nothing more. But those results are consistent with exit polls. There are lots of easier explanations for the swing to Clinton than fraud. You know that they have the best GOTV organization of any candidate?
If there were the slightest evidence of fraud, then there's an argument for discussing it. But I've seen nothing at all that looks like evidence. All sorts of glitches and errors occur during the process of tabulating results, but they get ironed out along the way.
We take a hard line against conspiracy theories in general at dkos because otherwise we'd attract every kind of CT nut looking to promote their nonsense. And there are a heck of a lot of CT nuts, people who treat every conspiracy theory as grist for their mills. We can't allow the bad to drive away the good.
Nothing is perfect pwa but I think the optical scanner is probably the best solution for high volume precints. All I know for sure is paperless Diebold type systems are the worst.
Smintheus, I can appreciate that crowd control is difficult at Dkos and there are a ton of conspiracies out there that are better left avoided but voting integrity is a real problem and I think Kos did us all a disservice back in 04 when he disallowed any discussion of fraud in Ohio, which has since been pretty much proven with compelling evidence in my mind anyway.
If we keep avoiding the issue, lest we look kooky and unserious in preference to waiting for the perfect case to make an example of, then the fraudsters already win. There's never going to be a perfect time or indisputable case.
But it's not even that Kos won't allow it on the site, it's his right as owner, it's his characterization of those of us who are concerned as nutcase conspiracy theorists that rankles. Brad for instance is a not a kook and I think Kos has been really and unneccessarily rude to him. I think it plays into the GOP's hands to treat our concerns so cavalierly.
Libby, If you're saying that the case for vote tallying fraud in OH '04 has been made, I don't agree. There were all sorts of things that were wrong with OH, but many are in plain sight...like manipulation of the allocation of voting machines. It just distracts from real issues to keep chasing phantom hacking when there's no clear evidence of it.
After it became clear that the vote-fraud gang wouldn't face facts about a range of established facts, e.g. the exit polls (there are several people at our site who have serious expertise in this area), he recognized that there were too many people seriously addicted to conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories.
As for Brad, there's a strong streak of CT buff there. As he himself admitted, he started this round of NH conspiracy theorizing in the total absence of evidence. I think that speaks volumes to his credibility. It's one thing to start with thin evidence and grind your axes, it's another to start in without any evidence whatever.
We are all very concerned about fixing what's wrong with these voting systems. We just dont' think there's anything to these vote-hacking claims, and don't want phantom problems to distract from actual, verified ones.
Smintheus, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. The Ohio fraud has never been proven because it was never officially investigated but I've read reams of private investigations on this and it's pretty compelling to me. Futhermore, it's not like Ohio was an isolated incident of weird anomalies. Across the country there's been numerous incidents of overcounts and undercounts. The thing is it doesn't require huge glaring hacks to skew the results. A few well placed minor hacks add up. There's never going to be a smoking gun you can point to, just the stray sniper that disappears into the woodwork.
But even assuming that there's no hacking and the problem is just flawed glitchy software, it's still destroys the integrity of the vote and a private company should not be in control of the tally. I'd agree that overstating the case isn't helpful but neither is dimissing the problem and its critics as inconsequential or crazy going to solve it. Maybe I've missed it, but I don't see that dkos is working to solve it on any level, which is shame because Kos could make a difference in bringing it to the forefront and could generate significant action on the local level which I where I think it needs to be attacked at this late date.
I think it's something that we should be pushing hard right now so we can get rid of as many of these machines as possible before the general.
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