Couldn't possibly agree more. Let's see how much these 'EEI mouth breathers are sick of Manny when JD Drew has spent Aug. on the DL with a fractured fingernail and Ortiz has spent that month going 2/4 with 82 walks. It'll be even better when Manny goes about 10/12, 4HR, 14 RBI in his first series back in Fenway and a smirking Bob Lobel races to deliver the oh-so-witty "Why don't we have guys like that?" quip.
Ugh. It's become inevitable at this point. Why does Boston always end up running it's best players out of town? I've never figured that out.
The funny thing is watching people salivate over J.D. Drew, that argue we should get rid of Manny because he takes off too many games, he does this and he does that, and almost all of those things are more applicable to Drew.
Behold the power of Conventional Wisdom. Manny's a malcontent. Manny dogged it. Manny doesn't care. Etc. which is hard to believe when you look at his contributions to this team.
What summer vacations are you talking about? Take out that season where he missed a ton of games to injury, and look at what happens to that average number of games played.
142, 120, 154, 152, 152, and 130* (*still good for 5th on the team behind Loretta, Lowell, Ortiz, and Youkilis).
109, 135, 100, 145, 72, and 146 yeah I can't wait to see J.D. Drew ride the pine.
Drew played 145 games in '04 & '06 and had a broken arm in '05. That's at least some evidence that his busted fingernail days are behind him.
Also lost in teh sauce is his absolutely brutal non-Fenway defense. It can't possibly be exaggerated how bad he is in terms of how few balls he actually get to. (same with Nixon; Manny's wall-playing=Nixon's pole playing. A nice benefit, but it doesn't overcome their brutal core defensive abilities.)
Chad, howsabout Peavy/Linbrink AND Adrinn Gonzalez? If nothing else, the rumors-LA and SD at least--are involving actual talent in return.
That said, I'd miss him too.
I wouldn't mind a Manny trade so much, if it meant the Sox were trying something new -- a Belichickian emphasis on teamwork over individualism, or a Dombrowskian reliance on young arms and defense. But dumping Manny in favor of Drew and Lugo would be another rendition of the team's usual reliance on overpriced middle-aged vets. It's a treadmill at best, and a recipe for disappointment at worst. Indeed, and I really hate to say this, but the Sox' offseason strategery reminds me of the worst excesses of George Steinbrenner before he learned to depend on Cashman.
At some point, the Sox need to start integrating entry-level talent. They're cheap, for one thing; but more importantly, they seem to bring something special to a team. I don't know whether it's intangibles like freshness and desire, or the more measurable values of speed, defense, and uninjured pitching arms; but teams with young talent frequently perform above expectations, while middle-aged teams frequently disappoint.
The Sox have generally been very cautious in promoting prospects to the big leagues, all the way back to Wade Boggs' two years at Pawtucket. If they don't know how to successfully integrate young players, they need to learn how. If they think they can, they need to start doing it.
As for 2007, I'm torn. Sure, I'd like some high-profile moves... but if Drew and Lugo are the best we can do, I might rather go with the likes of Pedroia, Cora, Murphy, Bard and Buchholz. It'd be a radical move, and they'd get blasted in print and on the radio, but it might just turn out to be the best possible thing.
What hurts the most is there will be the inevitable smear campaign, like there always is. Let's understand this: every human has faults. EVERY ONE. Except Bill Mueller. I guess I'd have to walk a mile in a teammate's moccasins to understand the problem, but honestly, if I spend three hours a day on a field with a guy and that guy does more to help me win than to make me lose, I don't see the problem. The world looks good through my rose colored glasses.
Of all the possibilities being floated around, the one I heard with SD where we'd be getting Peavy, Gonzalez and Linebrink is by far the best. Peavy's obviously a quality arm, and Gonzalez would give them much-needed punch at a corner position. I'm leery of one-hit wonder setup men, but Linebrink would be a welcome addition to the 'pen. I truly believe that management in their heart of hearts thinks Manny tanked it last year. Inexcusable if that's the case.
Dombrowskian young arms?
Beckett, Papelbon, Matsuzaka, Lester.
Pedroia is probably pegged as the starting 2Bman right now.
Crisp is 27.
Pena is 25.
Youkilis is 29.
Maybe they'll all suck.
Overpriced middle aged vets? The market sets the price. If Juan freakin' Pierre and Gary Matthews, Jr are geting what they get, then Drew (whose jock couldn't be held by either of those two) will get more $$$.
Spending money on good players is not a sin. Yet I suspect that if Theo decided to let the Buchholzes and Bards step right in put together a couple of Glavine-Viola-Bonderman 7-15 years while they develop, the fans would be calling for his head.
Replacing an aging core without having a few 75 win seasons is pretty damn hard.
I'm so sickened by this. It's so frustrating. Why does the FO keep building for 2008 and completely ignoring the present? Why is it that regular-joe fans like us seem smarter than these dopes who run the team? With all the ridiculous contracts being thrown around this month, it's so painfully obvious that Manny is a bargain. An absolute bargain!
You're right, CF. This is nothing but a trade for a guy they don't like. It has nothing to do with money or diminishing skills. ANd it's going to kill our season (not to mention Papi's). Olney compared this to the Yankees trading Sheffield for Tiger prospects. Please! We're comparing A-holes to oranges here. Trading Manny for more prospects makes my stomach churn.
Trading Manny is going to be a monumental mistake. MONUMENTAL!
I think the most interesting part of any Manny trade will be trying to guess how far away from the plate opposing pitchers will now throw every single pitch to Ortiz. I say the over/under starts at 8'.
Manny being traded makes no sense really. I mean first off, Manny's not like a Gary Sheffield-like cancer. He's not mean spirited and usually does things without thinking. It's like a puppy in a sense. I've always said "There's three constants in this world: death, taxes, and Manny Ramirez' numbers at the end of the season"
Though if a deal was to be done it'd be interesting if they went to Texas to do it. Maybe somehow get Michael Young who isn't like the best ever, but get Young, Kameron Loe, and well....I dunno I'm juust throwing crap on teh wall and seeing if it sticks. The only reason I included Michael Young is because the Red Sox need a shortstop.
As for a closer, I know that this is a really not so smart idea, but why not sign Ted Lilly or Zito ro something for a couple years and have Papelbon close one more season? Just one more and once Schill retires or you get a closer via trade, move Papelbon back into the rotation. Just a random suggestion.
"I think the most interesting part of any Manny trade will be trying to guess how far away from the plate opposing pitchers will now throw every single pitch to Ortiz. I say the over/under starts at 8'."
***********************************
I think--because I looked it up-- that Ortiz's batting numbers in Septemeber '06 (without Manny) were as good as or better than much of the rest of the season. The same is true over his time with the Sox.
Great hitters dont need "protection." If Ortiz walks 175 times, the Sox offense will be fine. If he starts swinging at those 8-foot outside pitches, then he's not the great hitter we think he is.
Peter Gammons is reporting (rumoring?) that a three players for Manny deal with the White Sox is coming. Off the top of my head, the guys I’d want back include Bobby Jenks (who is certainly untouchable), Joe Crede (subject to lots of rumors himself), and Jon Garland or Freddy Garcia (both also surrounded by rumors).
Realistically, Crede and Garland or Garcia and somebody else? Not terrible. In fact, pretty good.
Say next year we have Freddy Garcia in the rotation. Papelbon moves back to closer for a year, You re-up Garcia (who will be a free agent) to stem the retirement of Schilling. Deal Lowell and Clement for set-up men, and we're looking pretty good. So who plays short...
Oh man. Paplebon has closed his last game. I wish it weren't true, but it is. Read the articles about his visits to doctors towards the end of the season. The Sox turned him into a starter when he was drafted, and that's the way almost all medical experts say he can stay healthy. He is no longer, and probably never will be again, the closer for the Red Sox.
It's weird how many people are treating this as vindication for the Dirt Dog crowd and not as a sensible baseball move. This time around, in this market, it just makes sense.
And I love Manny.
Amazing article, easily your best in a while
great article.
by the way, bob ryan was tremendous today with theo epstein's telecoference!
Peavy/Gonzalez is the first trade rumor (and this includes the A-Rod rumors oh so long ago) that have me thinking that I wouldn't mind trading Manny. That said, I would definitely miss him - I've always enjoyed watching him.
On a somewhat related note, I become more convinced with every Lucchino press release that the Matsuzaka negotiations are a sham and the $51M posting price was only that high to keep him away from the Yankees.
Manny has been and will be for another year or two a great hitter. However the Sox need pitching. Between Shill and Wake, someone will get injured and if we can get Peavy out of the deal, then he pretty much assures you of 18-20 quality starts and an era around 4. That pretty much gaurantees 15 wins. However, if they don't get quality pitching out the deal, then it's a total waste.
Interesting thought that I came across while lurking on SOSH earlier today that could very well be true...maybe the Sox have explored the market as a way to pacify Manny's annual trade demands, but they intend to keep him and pair him with Drew, Coco and WMP in the OF (some kind of platoon where Manny gets some time at DH, Papi plays 1B, Coco plays left and WMP plays CF). This situation has certainly come up in the past...why do we think that the FO will get rid of him now (especially when his contract seems more reasonable in light of the deals given to Soriano, Pierre, Matthews Jr., et. al.). I think trading Manny at this point would upset more fans than it would please and, in all honesty, that's what (I hope) this FO thinks about when making moves (other than, you know, winning championships).
In the black & white world I wouldn't want them to trade Manny either - just thinking about watching the ball soar off Manny's bat toward the Pike is enough to take me back to sitting in Fenway on a hot summer's night.
But truthfully we all know that it isn't that black & white world and we (as fans) are operating in an information vacuum that the front office isn't. They know what is being offered, they know what Manny has, or hasn't, asked for, they know what his agent has requested / demanded / threatened, and frankly, they have a far better idea of just what was playing out for the last 6 weeks of the 2006 season.
For me this isn't as simple as Manny bashers wanting Manny out and a 'dirt dawg' in (I haven't seen too many reports that show the overwhelming love for the Drew deal?), this is about a front office that is dealing with the real world rather than the ideal world.
If that means we need to get used to the idea of Manny not playing LF, I think that is what we need to do rather than criticizing the front office for not operating in the ideal world.
Towers has said Peavy will not be traded as long as he is the GM, so I have to imagine the deal is Linebrink/Gonzalez. Hell, I'd drive Manny to San Diego myself if it brought Peavy here.
Let's be real: if the deal of Manny for Peavy, Linebrink and Gonzalez was legit, it would be done by now. And Sox Nation would be happy.
But since it ain't, all we've got left to hope for is some package of Billingsley and Kemp, with a Loney or even an Ethier on the side. I'd much rather go with a young stick like one of those than commit long-term to Nancy Drew, who - I will bet anyone willing to take me up on it -won't play in as many games as Manny next year, and certainly won't out-produced him.
By the way, Chad, this column is fantastic. I'd say you should have it reprinted in the Globe, but judging by the fact it's got 21 responses in 90 minutes, it may get more exposure here.
WMP may be a significant factor in this equation. He has the talent to become one of the best in the game, but he's an unfinished product, raw around the edges and still very young. It could be that the FO doesn't want him absorbing any Mannyisms. They may think that if Manny's gone, then Ortiz becomes WMP's one and only role model -- and in that scenario, WMP is more likely to realize his full potential.
Just a theory, I have no inside information on this (or anything else). Let me be clear that I'm not advocating a Manny trade -- I love to watch him hit, and he'd be awfully tough to replace. But if it happens, the Sox are not doomed by any means. A single player -- even a superstar -- rarely improves a team by as many as ten games. Better pitching and defense could easily close a Manny Gap.
Nancy Drew!! bwahahahahahaha
In 2000 "nancy" played in 135 games; in 2004, "she" played in 145; and in 2006, 144.
In 2000 Manny played in 118 games
In 2002 he played in 120; and in 2006 he played in 130.
Seems like there's a 50-50 shot that Nancy will play more games than Manny.
Nobody wants to come out and say it because of the difference in offensive numbers (which are ballpark inflated) but when you factor in age and defense, I don't think it is unreasonable at all to assert that JD Drew will be the better player in 2007.
//He has been the Gehrig to Papi's Babe, or vice versa//
Though Gehrig will eternally be linked with Ruth in our memories, he played many years without Ruth, and he did just fine.
//At some point, the Sox need to start integrating entry-level talent. They're cheap, for one thing; but more importantly, they seem to bring something special to a team.//
Even discounting Eric's post rightfully listing guys like Papelbon and Beckett, Boston has some real stud arms in the farm system. Unfortunately, they're mostly at the Single-A level, and rushing them to the majors wouldn't do them any good. Especially with attitudes like this:
//I'm so sickened by this. It's so frustrating. Why does the FO keep building for 2008 and completely ignoring the present?//
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 
I'm mystified by the strategy that Theo, et al have in place now. That's conceding that they do have a strategy.
This team is getting old, is weak in pitching, and almost completely devoid of exciting players. Drop Manny, and outside of Ortiz, you basically have the Kansas City Royals, but with 5x the payroll.
It hurts to say it, but we're looking at 3rd place next season.
//This team is getting old, is weak in pitching, and almost completely devoid of exciting players. Drop Manny, and outside of Ortiz, you basically have the Kansas City Royals, but with 5x the payroll.//
Pardon me, but WTF?
So Jonathan Papelbon's blazing fastball isn't exciting? Wily Mo Pena's obscene hitting power isn't exciting? Coco Crisp's raw athleticism isn't exciting? Daisuke Matsuzaka's "shuuto" pitch isn't (potentially) exciting? Josh Beckett's filthy curveball isn't exciting?
I could go on ad naseum, but I think I've made my point. Manny is a great, great hitter, but to claim that he and Ortiz are the only exciting players on the roster well...that's just not true. Unless you bungee jump to work every day and personify that "XTREEM" lifestyle Mountain Dew likes to portray in its ads. Or something like that.
I love Manny, and I'm not of the camp that wants to dump him for the sake of dumping him. Frankly, that'd be stupid beyond measure. But, if we can fleece somebody out of some good pieces for him (which seems possible in this market) then by all means, we should totally do it.
Also, Manny is one of those "old" players you apparently don't like. He'll be 35 in the spring. Right now, only two members of our starting rotation are over 30, and among position players (under contract), Manny, Ortiz, Lowell and Varitek are the only regulars over 30. The Red Sox are actually pretty young compared to, say, the Yankees and the Giants. And we're getting younger.
Yankee fans are rooting hard for Theo to make this mistake. Valentine's Views.
Manny is the best hitter inbaseball in the last 20 years and if they trade it's the worst mistake since the Babe
if we trade Manny, we need Matsuzaka
Here's the equation folks:
Does 2007 Manny Ramirez = WMP + Trade-Return?
It's just that simple; if the answer is yes, you make the deal. If not...you don't. If you think Pena is going to bust out if given a full-time gig, then you're probably in favor of trading Manny if you can get the right return. If not...Boston's better off hanging onto him.
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