Pravda Ne'eman
Preferably, cut out the child's eyes as he may be tempted to go to the library to see the stuff his mother cut out or blacked out.
ugh
Preferably cut out the child's eyes as he may betempted to go to the library to see what mom has cut ot or blacked out.
ugh
oops
I've never seen treife pictures on breakfast cereal. What on earth is he talking about?
Pictures of Treif animals was what I assumed.
what's your chiddush? his whole book, and the other one about engagement, are full of similar statements that are subject to ridicule.
He's probably talking about the Wheaties boxes with pictures of Olympic gymnasts etc. on them.
+1 to Avi Grossman.
Have you read "Chosson and Kallah During Their Engagement"? Its pathological!
Pictures of Treif animals was what I assumed.
You mean Tony the Tiger? No, he's not Chabad. Actually I think he's referring to women with short sleeves eating cereal. Hirhurim ra'im!
Have you read "Chosson and Kallah During Their Engagement"? Its pathological!
What are you talking about?
I think this hurts your cause which, I assume, is to further intellectual honesty and normalcy in the frum media and community.
The fact is that R. Falk is a chacham s'hegia l'horah, and deserves respect. If one wants to stick to a scholarly discussion of the issues, as I recall from R. Yehuda Henkin's review, that is one thing; I indeed think that Centrist/modern Orthodox rabbonim would be measured and respectful in their analysis of the halachic and hashkafic matters involved, and laymen should certainly follow suit.
Everyone knows that he is pretty hard-core, unless you've been under a (Brooklyn) rock.
Should we censor the story of Yehuda and Tamar? David and Bathsheba? Amnon and Tamar? Onan and Tamar?
Should we cut out the Midrashic accounts of Rachav? What about the Gemara's discussion on Rov Beki'im haim? How did the Amoraim know that they were be'ki'im? Where did people get all that experience from? You do not suddenly become a "ba'ki" on the first night!!
Obviously, the people mentioned in the Talmud, Biblical figures such as Yehuda, King David, etc., were not obsessed by sex. They simply were caught up in a few mistakes, and overcame their misdeeds. We can learn from these stories.By burying our children's heads in the sand, we will raise them, properly, to be ostriches!!
How about this.....
http://www.chinuch.org/item_deta...ls.php?
mid=4552
"By burying our children's heads in the sand, we will raise them, properly, to be ostriches!!"
The issue of how to give children an age-appropriate, healthy view of sexuality while at the same time raising them to be frum, is a valid issue. Here is a a lecture from Torah Web on the topic("Talking to Our Children about the Birds and the Bees: Sanctifying the Intimate"):
http://www.torahweb.org/
audioFra...html#panel=ryud
"By burying our children's heads in the sand, we will raise them, properly, to be ostriches!!"
The question of how to give children an age-appropriate, healthy view of sexuality, while at the same time rasing them to be frum is a valid issue, in general. The following is a link to a Torah Web lecture on the subject("Talking to Our Children About the Birds and the Bees: Sanctifying the Intimate"):
http://www.torahweb.org/
audioFra...html#panel=ryud
Baruch: Perhaps the fact that a "chacham sh'hegia l'horaah" can propound "horaos" which are transparent lunacy indicates a serious problem.
Baruch: Perhaps the fact that a "chacham sh'hegia l'horaah" can propound "horaos" which are transparent lunacy indicates a serious problem.
I understand what people don't like, but I don't think this is the way to go; I prefer to stick to the intellectual issues such as balancing frumkeit with giving children a healthy sense of sexuality, which all must give-- whether in Willamsburg or Teaneck.
If you wish to influence anyone, reasoned analysis, I think, is more effective than attacks(which is how it's viewed). To quote J.D.,
"So let us proceed in this endeavor with less invective and less character assassination. At the same time, let's continue to critically examine dogma and search or truth, wherever we may find it".
http://www.chareidi.com/2008/06/...e-of-
ideas.html
Baruch, this IS less invective. Be happy with what you're getting. Imagine if J.D. and M.D. would let themselves loose.
Hmm, apparently if one types /sarcasm surrounded by chevrons, Haloscan elides it.
Hmm, apparently if one types /sarcasm surrounded by chevrons, Haloscan elides it.
I copied the above sentence of "critically examine dogma" quickly, and it wasn't related to my point(my comment on it, is that if it's referring to "dogma", in the sense of ikkarie emunah as opposed to other hashkafos/policies, the "critical" element, from an Orthodox perspective, is obviously only in the sense of "emunah al pi chakirah" of the rational rishhonim, which might bring up questions, but doesn't reject principles of faith becuase of them).
Moshe,
I assume that question is for J.D. and M.D., and will let them answer it.
Baruch, it wasn't a question.
"Have you read "Chosson and Kallah During Their Engagement"? Its pathological!"
"What are you talking about?"
Pointed Questions | 08.11.08 - 7:18 pm | #
---------------------------------
Have you read the book? I did. It reflects an unhealthy obsession with keeping engaged couples apart, not just physically, but emotionally, with virtually no phone contact even. The gestalt of the book, Rabbi Falk's approach, is simply pathological. So is his obsession with certain aspects of tznius in this book and in Oz Vehadar Levusha.
If the community were to embrace his approach, we would have many more dysfunctional marriages and divorces, as there is no chance that even obvious issues best dealt with by breaking the engagement will be discovered.
A,
Thanks. I wasn't aware that he had written a book by that title.
Moshe Gluck,
Question, or statement, it should be directed at the authors.
My point was that whatever they are trying to acheive should be done with focusing on issues, not people, and in a more repectful way. It would also be a good idea if there would be positive forums to discuss such issues; if you don't have such forums, people will gravitate to others, where there are indiscretions.
If you have any criticism of my comments(I'm not sure, exactly, who your getting at), you can also contact me offline.
Other than the last line and the link to the Monty Python sketch, there is nothing would could be construed as invective in this post. The title is an accurate description of Rabbi Falk's advice, and the quote itself is better than any parody.
Baruch:
I don't think I understand why you believe that criticizing issues is worthwhile, but criticizing the people who promote those issues is not worthwhile?
I do understand it when the criticism of the person is unrelated to their teachings, but when the person is being criticized FOR their ridiculous teachings, isn't that the same as criticizing their ideas?
Also, this idea of being "respectful" pops up all the time on these blogs. What exactly does that mean anyway? We want to avoid sinas chinam and loshon horah, sure. But when people present their new-fangled, extreme chumrahs that have little basis in halacha or mesorah as gospel, than they should be knocked down a notch. Just because someone has smicha and talmidim does not mean that they are beyond our ability to argue, even if that argument is presented as satire or parody.
One must weigh the impact of their statements before issuing them. It is oh so easy to pasken l'chumra. The objective is to find LEGITIMATE koolas. The true G'dolim who invented the pruzbul, saved millions of Jews from banruptcy over two millenia. The ones who created Mechirat Chamets, allowed innumerable Jews to keep their possessions over Pesach. We have had inventions and legal fictions allowing us to carry on Shabbat, charge interest, retro -actively annul vows, etc. The actions that caused these were not against the Torah. Quite the contrary, they fulfilled the injunction of V'chai Bahem.
Today's crop of Rabbis are only interested in topping each other's Chumrot. Thus we now have "glatt" chickens (although there is no b'dika on a chicken) glatt fish (although fish have no lungs at all!). Whereas in Talmudic times, shidduchim were made at coeducational Tu B'av "parties", today's singles must sit separately at weddings (and the phonies bemoan the "shidduch crisis"). Look to your Talmud, see what it says about Tu B'av!!
Does anyone know a teenager who got "turned on" by a woman on a cereal box? "turned off" by a novel that has a magician? Gandalf must have made a million "apikorsim"!! (forget about Harry Potter!)
When you make too many restrictions, you make too many disillusioned Jewish kids. Every kid who was turned off by having been forced to learn "lomdish" Gemaras, forced to throw out his novels, forced to dress in a manner Halachically permitted, but Charedi prohibited, is another reason for someone in "charge" to have to give a "din v'cheshbon" to the Heavenly tribunal. Never say, no, when you might be able to say, yes, and still be within the bounds of Halacha.
My favorite line:
Ensuring that plenty good literature> is available.
I've had parts of Oz v'hadar levusha slammed in my face at various times (I'm a man dammit, it's bad enough that women are exposed to that crap but it's not even aimed at me) and I have no desire to read anything else by the taliban fanatic
I'm glad you've posted the book, mainly so that people won't have to buy the book and support the "rabbi", but also because the rabbi admits that pre-war photos were doctored (although he gives ridiculous reasons why the "un-tzineeasdik" photos were taken in the first place.
You should see what R. Falk writes about the use of the computer and the internet in Oz Vhadar Levusha- he basically equates it to certain spiritual death.
See you all in internet gehenom.
I happen to agree that the secular approach to sexuality is not necessarily the one I wish to impart to my curious 7 year old. I would rather it be from a frum outlook. Chareidi or not, I am religious, and my kids will not learn about sexuality from a secular book. I see nothing "extreme" in his approach here.
#2 - cereal boxes - perhaps more extreme, but our Multi Grain Cheerios does sports a woman streaching while wearing a tank top. WHile I don't force my husband to wear sunglasses outside to prevent him from seeing a woman's bare shoulders, I see no reason to display that image in my house.
I have no comment on anything R. Falk says in his sefer other than, "I am not a Rav".
My point was, in general, that children, especially, need to have a healthy sense of sexuality which can't be overlooked with the increased focus on modesty(separate seating buses, tzniyus committees, etc.).
Increased focus on modesty doesn't mean that such a healthy sense will be overlooked, but it may be a concern to some people. A parent can live in Willamsburg, have a very intense approach to tzniyus, but also needs to give a healthy sense of sexuality to their children, in a way which will enhance their observance of halacha and development as a person(that's why I linked R. Yudin's lecture).
For example, Arnold Beisser's "Paradoxical Theory of Change"(Gestalt Theory)holds that "change occurs when one becomes what he is, not when he tries to become what he is not".
This is perfect. The next time someone asks me why I am converting to Orthodox Judaism, I will give this quote. I am becoming what I am. I love it!
For what it's worth, I was referring in a previous comment to the thought-process of "suppression"(versus repression), which can be a common occurrence in many ordinary ways(eg, walking down contemporary streets, anger, etc.).
Focusing on the abstract intellectual issues of defense mechanisms and on educating children, I lost focus of the sensitivity of the issue being discussed. This goes to show the care any person should take in commenting on blogs, and how people who are normally careful and sensitive, can get involved in blogging and then lose the correct focus. These matters instead, need to be addressed in the proper place, by qualified people, something which I should not have involved myself in here.
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