Mr. Shea:
Surely you realize that this man no more represents traditional priests in full communion with Rome than Novus Ordo pedophile priests represent their confreres. At most his disorder may illustrate the problems with "independent" priests who shun episcopal and papal jurisdiction (whether they are traditional or progressive, for that matter).
I entreat you to change the wording of your text, as it casts opprobrium on a group of priests generally known for their lives of holiness and sacrifice for the Church.
John P.
No it doesn't. It casts opprobrium on the smug tendency of RadTrads to portray themselves as beyond the sins of "neo-Catholics" (an insulting term in itself). Of course, not all RadTrads are this heartless (though, in fact, I seldom meet RadTrads who are happy, much less joyful and charitable).
Mr. Shea:
Before I respond, I should read your definition of a Radtrad. Perhaps the definition is more specific than I took it to be at first blush.
Where can I find your definition?
Reactionary Catholics, generally hostile to Vatican II and this Pope, tend to be antisemitic, some go so far as to reject the Council and the post-1958 magisterial office altogether. Angry. Obsessed with liturgical minutiae. Loathe Protestants. Prone to seeing conspiracies. If it's not Latin, it's evil. and so forth.
The definition of RadTrad is flexible like an accordian. It swings open and closed. Somedays, RadTrad means people who hate the Pope ...other days it includes people who offer even the slightest critique of the current pontiff..or people who sense that things haven't been going well for the past 30 years.
What is consistent is the venom and inner turmoil of the user directed against Catholics.
Note also: "Lidless eye contigent."
John
from the sspv homepage:
17. We consequently reject this New Mass as an evil ceremony, since it is a purveyor of sacrilege, error, and heresy rather than the beacon of Catholic light and truth. We equally reject all the sacramental rites and ceremonies reformed in accordance with the modernist principles. In the light of the foregoing, we must conclude that it is objectively a mortal sin to take active part in the New Mass.
18. Since the very authors of the New Mass admit themselves that their destructive activity began before the Second Vatican Council, we logically reject the first steps before the Council which led to the general reform of Vatican II, particularly those produced by Annibale Bugnini in his work as Secretary of the Commission for Liturgical Reform. We do not presume to bind others to this rejection of all the pre-conciliar reforms, but we believe it is both right and expedient for the good of the Church to adhere to the Missal of Saint Pius V, reformed by Clement VIII, Urban VIII, and Saint Pius X. While it is possible that there could be differences of opinion concerning the acceptability of the pre-Conciliar reforms, the principle remains the same: that we should follow a determined set of rules used by the Church at some time before the Council.
that about sums up what I think is considered to be radtrad sort of people. An out and out rejection of anything that the current Church does.
We are all free to be a little critical of each other at times and we are also free to question the judgements of our leaders (ie the Pope and the bishops in union) in areas that he is not infalliable. However, the Pope is the Pope and the Pope(s) did not give us an 'evil ceremony' or any other such garbage. Usually these folks all have the same remarks and comments about the whole 'new order' of things. I do not think mark is lumping everyone who is critical of the Holy Father as Tom seems to be suggesting. Of course, Mark's a big boy and can defend himself. Nonetheless, this is what I term as the radtrad thing
Pax
Obviously it's a continuum. You have traditionalists, archtraditionalists, and Hypertraditionalists. It's unfair to lump them all together.
I'm sure most SSPX adherents would cringe at the statements quoted above by Dale.
Mr Shea:
If I may voice a candid criticism: the definition you provided was a little sketchy.
Perhaps if you could start the definition with a pithy sentence of principle, followed by documented instances of Radtradism to illustrate it.
A bibliography would be helpful too, both of Radtrad books and of books on the phenomenon. It is probably fair to say that _The Great Facade_ rates as Radtrad, since it is there that Ferrara/Woods spread the term "neocatholic."
I do not wish to be difficult, but it does seem that to proceed through the analysis of this recent movement (is Radtradism a post Vatican II novelty? or does it have deeper roots?), well-thought out definitions and research into trends are in order.
Sorry. I'm not a scientist.
AS the inventor of the term RadTrad, yes it's flexible, denoting a religious/cultural "style." Besides Mark's markers I would also note a curious Francophilia as well as support for the Confederacy.
Sandra,
Do you have a web site? If not, you should start one. You write consistently fascinating posts. 
Larry,
I don't think they would. follow this link:
http://sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/
q5_nov...5_novusordo.htm
It might be said a little bit 'nicer' but the bottom line is pretty much the same: the 'new Mass' is NOT Catholic.
John, I think Mark had a post about the jews and the gentiles and something about Paul saying it was okay to ignore parts of the old law (what you eat for instance) vs. following the new law. The jews-to-christians who objected to what St. Paul said here would be the 1st example (that I know of!) of the so called 'radtrad' group of people. Again, there are certainly reasonable arugments to be made about WHY the Mass was changed or WHY we lack discipline in the Church of today, but that hardly seems to be something new to the Church.
Pax
Mark (and company)
Are you lumping faithful Catholics who attend latin Mass said by priests of the Fraternity of St. Peter into the RadTrad category?
http://www.fssp.com/
Just curious, as I occassionaly attend their services. Sometimes I get the impression you're throwing these men in there too, which rankles me somehow. (Not that I have a right to live un-rankled.)
Curious to know. Thanks.
Paul
Paul
speaking for myself. NO!!!!! I even attend the allowable Indults on some rare occassions.
Pax Christi
Paul:
No.
Sandra writes: "I would also note a curious Francophilia."
As a traditionalist who, more often than not, sides with what Tom Woods has denounced in Latin Mass Magazine as "ambiguous French centrism" within within the Ecclesia Dei movement, there is a good reason for the Francophilia within traddyland on all counts. Apart from the Feeneyites, the French have simply produced most of the key thinkers among traditionalism -- whether it be sedevacantism, SSPX or indult. Whether this is good or bad depends on the agenda being pushed. Right now, Fr. Aulangier and his French contingent within the SSPX are the ones pushing most strongly for reconciliation with Rome -- this is a good thing. Similarly, within the Ecclesia Dei crowd, Loic Merian and CIEL were really the first traddy lay group to really push the idea that traditionalist thought should be "scholarly, non-polemical and respectful toward legitimate Church authority". Similarly, La Nef is probably the best traditionalist publication for the same reason, and it was Le Barroux Monastery that wrote the definitive work reconciling Vatican II and Religious Liberty with Catholic Tradition. Additionally, it was Fr. de Servigny, the FSSP's French theologian, who wrote a beautiful book defending the pastoral nature of Vatican II and showing how its Eucharistic theology was drawn mainly from the Council of Trent, Vatican I, and Pope Pius XII.
I certainly do not lump the faithful who who prefer the Tridentine Mass with RadTrads. It's a whole complex of religious/cultural tastes.
French influence in both sides of Traditionalism explains current interest in things French but what about the obsession with the sacredness of the French monarchy, fascination with French mystics' prophecies, always taking the political side of France against England, a not so thinly disguised hatred of the US because it was founded by English Protestants? (This is up-front in the writings of Solange Hertz.)
I was the one who called this article to Mark's attention. Why? Because I think it is awfully low for the folks at the Novus Ordo Watch to blame Vatican II for Bishop O'Brien's car accident and a teenager's death from drink. You don't think stupidity and bad judgement occurred in the "good old days"? Trust me, it did. It didn't get the press it does now.
Then there is this "traditional" priest (originally SSPX, then belonging to the sedevacantist SSPV) who not only is imprisoned for vehicular manslaughter, but is allowed to return to his parish after his release from prison. But then he has to get involved with a young woman, is "relieved" when she aborts their child, and then he leaves town, to resurface in Boston (!) as an "independent" priest. I wonder if his parishoners at Sts. Roger and Mary are aware of his past?
Sandra, at first I thought your comments about France vs. England within the traditionalist movement were ridiculous, but after thinking it over, I had to admit that my favorite traditionalist personalities (Calvet, Valuet, CIEL, de Servigny, Aulagnier) are all French, whereas my least favorite (Davies and Williamson) are Englishmen. However, I think in many cases this has more to do with the French being the intellectual force behind most of the traddy camps -- both good and bad.
Of intresting note is indult communities are often open to Feenyism, while the SSPX is strongly against it. It is intresting to see this fault line in the traditional movment.
What's an indult community?
Thanks, but I looked it up on google.
Sandra, were you being satiric when you said some of the radical traditionalists take a great interest in the Confederacy?
If not, I have a billfold full of strange-looking twenty dollar bills they might be interested in. There's a picture of a bearded gent on them.
No I wasn't being satiric. I've read the REMNANT on and off for years and they're sympathetic to the Confederacy--the last great hope of Christian civilization in America, doncha know.
Sandra's right, I'm afraid (as usual. Many in the radtrad crowd really are enamored with ol' Dixie. Weird, I know, but true.
Thanks for the tip, Dave.
Besides the sedevacantist influence reportedly now at St. Roger & Mary's, other wolves are on the prowl around Boston: the SSPX and OSJ have reputedly set up shop too.
Pavel, Sandra: RadTrads are usually the only Catholics who will publicly defend the Confederacy. Sheldon Vanauken -- mainstream Catholic, personal friend of C. S. Lewis, and author of A Severe Mercy -- was a notable exception. See, for example, his essay collection The Little Lost Marion and Other Mercies, published by the decidedly un-RadTrad Franciscan University Press.
Sandra -
Which issue of the Remnant has an article sympathetic to the Confederacy?
Not having the relevant issues of the REMNANT to hand, I cannot give a specific reference. Readers of this blog ought to appreciate that I have an excellent memory. (see post where i referenced a magazine article read 40 years ago on THE PROMETHEUS PROJECT)
Yes, I well remember Sheldon Vanuken's essay that ran in CRISIS. As specimen of historical imbelicity, it could hardly be bettered. He argued, among other things, that the South was more cultured than the North because streets in Richmond were named out of Sir Walter Scott novels! Nothing about relative literacy rates, circulation of books and newspapers, number of colleges etc. But Vanauken ate out very well on his relationship with CS Lewis and it rendered him sacrosanct among conservative Catholics.
Sandra, I'd be interested in seeing evidence of this pro-Confederacy.
I'd judge the Remnant is about as traditionalist as you can get without going into sedevacantism: Obviously unsettling for neo-Catholics, perhaps too tame for SSPX'ers. But I've only read one issue.
I think people my age (34) would like the mag, and I'm considering subscribing.
Crisis Magazine is lame, there are few poor shows on EWTN but Deal Hudson's show is a disaster.
If you want the source on traditionalist Catholic Confederate sympathies, read I'll Take My Stand by Twelve Southerners. Even if the traditionalists in question haven't read the book, one finds there the ideas they've often thought but ne'er so well expressed.
For a good historical summation of the impact of I'll Take My Stand, see Paul V. Murphy's The Rebuke of the Past published by UNC Chapel Hill Press, 2001.
As the subject of three recent attack articles in THE REMNANT, who would seriously suppose I'd recommend the rag? I'm also a regular contributor to CRISIS. The Vanauken artuicle happened under the editorship of David Bovenizer.
I myself was born in the South and spent my childhood on a five acre chicken farm in a poor rural area, an experience I look back on fondly but would not care to repeat as an adult. My daughters now live in the South. Frankly Southern Agrarianism gives me the giggles.
I still don't understand (nor have I read) what was so broken about the old order that we needed to have the Novus Ordo?
As a non-American I'm very puzzled that "RadTrads" would defend the Old South. Weren't the Klan into lynching "Catherlicks" alongside "Jewboys" and "Nigras"? Was Scarlett O'Hara's family purely fictional?
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